Hi, I'm Nina Endrst.

I'm Anna Toonk. Welcome to how to be human, a podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humaneness.

On this episode, Anna and I discussed art and creativity.

Take a seat clear mind and let's chat

we're here. We did it here.

We're really doing it wasn't meant to be. Yes. Last week's attempt was hilarious. And I'm feeling good about this attempt. I'm still in Italy. I feel like people if you follow me on Instagram, I feel like soon people are going to be like, are you still there? Like going to be coming back, but I am still ill away. And today I am recording from a 14 year olds bedroom with really strong internet, which is the power of making friends abroad. Oh my god, that's

so funny. Of course, the teenager better have a strong internet. Otherwise, they'll be held back I'm sure.

Exactly. It was funny. Simona who has become my Italian best friend and has solved every problem I've had in Italy. So I will be grateful to her to the ends of the earth. She has put me in her daughter's bedroom because just like our bedrooms right above the router, so you should test internet which I mean, is there anything nicer than when people like take your deeds seriously that don't have to like it's so nice. I mean, like, you know, she could have been like, well, that sucks for you. Good luck with that. But instead, she brought me to her home fed me a snack and then put me in her daughter's bedroom. So

fed missed.

She did. She was like, Have you had lunch because it was hilarious as someone who's from the Manchester area and so she has this very thick northerners accent she'll be like, Have you had lunch? And I'm like, No, she's like, I'm gonna pick you up for Sella. And then she'll slip into the most beautiful fluent Italian and I'm so jealous. She's She's my goals to get my Italian up to snuff. But you know me that I'm I'm nosy by nature. So it's been cool to you know, see their house in their backyard is an all of growth. Like, lovely. Yeah, lovely, wonderful. And she's got pups, so I was gonna It was nice to get a little bit of a pup fix and, and everything. But I'm excited about what we're talking about today.

Me too. I think it's very timely, as usual. It is. I feel attacked by our own planning.

Yeah, same same. I mean, it's funny because I thought I knew what I would have said prior. And now I'm like, it's changed, you know. So as you'll already know, because you can read titles. Today we're talking about art and creativity. And I have a definition for us art. from Oxford languages, the expression or application of human creative skill and, and imagination. Typically in a visual form, such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power to the various branches of creative creative activities such as painting, music, literature and dance. And then creativity is defined as the use of imagination or original ideas to create something. inventiveness. Yeah, which I'm curious, something that gets said to me a lot is that people think reading Tarot is very creative. And oh, yeah, I mean, have you heard that? Has anyone ever said that to you? I know numerous people say, Oh, are the links that they I think find in my creative like in my career path. Is there like oh, you've like you've always been creative like Oh, really? Terrell must be so creative. And I'm like, actually, if you're doing it right, it's not really creative. Because otherwise you could create a lot of chaos and so what's life if I just was like, I'm gonna riff but is that something you've heard had people come to you with assumptions that Taro super creative?

No, no, I most people that I know don't know. Don't even like really want to know that much. But

they can have an opinion.

Exactly. I think they're just too scared to even ask or they're just like, Man, I don't know what to say. No, no one's no one's ever inquired or ever However, this really got me, ya know, nobody cares about it. Nobody cares about what I do. And it is kind of funny because I feel like well, yeah, there's there's so many things on that. And we're not we're not talking about that today. But I don't. I think it is a create. I think it's there is art, obviously, yeah, present. And that's my one of the things I love about it. But I agree, as far as getting creative. I think there's there everybody has their own way of reading. And so yeah, but there's a way you know, there's a way to read, and I think there's a way that you can really fuck people up.

I was like, arguing with someone who was insisting that reading Tarot was very creative. And I was like, Listen, if creativity doesn't retire, oh, by the way, yes. And I was like, if creativity is defined as using your imagination, if I'm using your match my imagination during lying, that's not maybe good for you. Like, I do think creativity comes into it. Sometimes when you're like, I have to say something difficult to somebody, and I want them to hear it. I've had to be creative of like, you know, I've learned certain words, you know, just set people off, you know, and so I'm like, Hmm, what's a creative way I can say this? You know, that? Maybe they're more receptive totally, and still upholds the integrity of Exactly, exactly, yeah, like it especially to with clients, I think you've known a long time that if you're like, I know this word, they have a connotation for it. So I don't want to derail this by that, you know, like, yeah, it can be a little tricky, tricky sometimes, because I don't want to be manipulative, but I also don't want I'm not a therapist, so I don't want to like, you know, trigger somebody and dancer that with them. But I think it's tricky, though, for people to understand sometimes that I think art is a way in to tarot for people that if you are really visual, that the artwork often is like, What draws you in, you know, that it is nice, I think, to have the imagery, and if you are someone who's driven by that, and, you know, like I myself, I'm very driven by like, color, you know, like, if you have emotional responses to those things, obviously, teros like, Come here, my child, I have something for you, you know, yeah, about a whole system in 78 little mini paintings you could look at and adore. You know. And I think that confuses people sometimes about the relationship between art and creativity. And Taro.

Yeah, I agree. As far as, do you always knew you're a creative person?

Right? Um, no, I think I felt a pressure to be, you know, in a way. And that, I think, because my parents were this real divide of like, my mom was creative. And my dad was very intellectual. You know, my mom's very intellectual as well. But that I was like, huh, I think I'm more creative. You know, when I leaned into that, and wanted to, to be it, but like, my initials are AR T, like, arts, always, art and creativity has always been in the mix. And my mom was one of those moms that did lots of crafts and things with us. So like, I haven't really known life without creativity, but I don't. I think it took me a little while before I was like, Oh, I think that's me. You know, like, I think it wasn't until high school that I was like, oh, yeah, I'm definitely like an art kid. I'm a creative kid. Like, that's where that is where I need to align myself and feel the best, you know. Yeah, I think like, it's It blows my mind. Like when we talk about like, your high school experience, or your youth, you know, that something you're like, Yeah, I didn't hang out with the arty kids and stuff. And I'm like, How is that possible?

Not even close. I mean, I did I tell you, I went out with my high school guidance counselor for dinner. Yes. Yes. So which I think is amazing. Love her. Love her. Shout out, Michelle. Sure. That is amazing. You've ever had one. While she was literally the saving grace. You didn't have guidance counselors?

Not really. I mean, not in the American sense. Oh, well, yeah. That's because I was in England. They right. England was like, well, because I went to an international school. They're like, won't give enough. So you sort of recognize this as only school, but like, we're not going to really do it, you know?

Yeah, yeah. We were talking about how much the school I went to his change and how they have mindfulness rooms and, you know, all this stuff. And it's very focused on mental health. And I mean, I don't know how much I believe about it, actually, them you know, putting their money where their mouth is. But she was saying how, you know, I was But the teachers really just didn't know what to do with me and I. So if I had more, and I'm not this is not a blame game, obviously. But

we already did that episode.

Yeah. But I feel like if I had more encouragement, or people were not constantly telling me I was a bad kid all the time, and I was misbehaved, and they wanted to send me to Hamas den, which was the school in my town that was like for the, for kids that were like doing drugs and shit. And we're having really extreme behavioral problems. And that wasn't me. I mean, that all you know, and that seems like overkill. It was and she kept saying, like, that's not where she belongs, but, and she was actually telling me this at dinner, she was that people were trying to send me off there all the time. And it was just, you know, I was just lost, obviously, but also, I think I didn't have an outlet. And now, and when I started having an outlet, and I changed a lot, you know, I mean, fashion was always my outlet when I was a kid. And that definitely helped. But it wasn't enough. And I don't think that any creative outlet obviously is enough to to help with like severe mental health issues, but it does sustain me in a way and give me such a healthy way to access emotions and express emotions and, you know, discover things about myself in the world. And I didn't have that. And I think I would have really thrived if I did. But you know, you find it in life when you're meant to find it. And that's just what it is. Like, my parents were both artists in the sense that they had creative careers. But my mom wasn't, you know, nobody was like doing crap. I mean, I fucking hate crafts, I wouldn't have been like crafting shit. That's not my, that's not my game, my style, but I would have been nice to kind of get into it a little bit. But you know

I think it's really hard to find your way in, to be honest. It's funny Hearing you say that. Because I think as a kid, fashion was definitely a big thing for me and dance. I was always in dance from like, the age of like, two and fashion magazines. I was obsessed with magazines. And I still am. Same in getting them from other places, you know, other countries, like if we ever went to like a newsstand that had like, you know, magazines of the world, you know, like, I was thrilled to get, you know, like, you know, a French Vogue or something. I was like, you know, like, Yeah, I mean, I'd be like, my mom's like, Anna, it's like, 20 dogs. I'm like, oh, yeah, and I would, I mean, I would go through them. And like when we would, if we were living in Europe at the time, and like going on vacation and stuff, like, everywhere we went and you know, my parents will be like, you have like 50 pounds of magazine.

They were so good for like collaging and

Oh, my anything's out. And I would get trashing paper to like, try to learn how to draw this stuff and everything. But I hadn't really thought about it. But like fashion for sure was like, a big thing. And I think was a place that I was learning about creativity and self expression, obviously, of like, Ooh, look at this. And like, you know, already kind of reacting to like colors and trends and prints and things like that. But I think it is really hard. Like, I also always had cameras, like I was always really interested in photography from a young age, which I don't know where that came from, like neither one of my parents were big photographers, but like, some of my earliest childhood memories is my parents gave me this like, camera that took 110 millimeter film, like I remember it. And I'm God, the money I would pay to see those photos. What was Baby Anna photographing, I would love to know. But that was something in high school as well that I feel really grateful that my art teacher was like, you know, like, you can do this, like being a photographer as a job. Like you could study that, you know, and I was like, Ooh, but I think a big reason I picked up a camera too was anxiety. I'd love to having a buffer between me and people. I've loved having a way. It made me feel very safe, you know, like, and it made me feel braver to like, approach people and be like, you know, Can I take your photo or whatever it was this tool that really helped me I think handle social anxiety. So I also came at it it's funny you you talk about like mental health because it's like, I definitely think I've used creativity a lot of times to like you work with my mental health, you know and help it and as a tool is a coping mechanism.

Totally. I used to do a lot of theater when I was a kid which I theater. Yes, honey, I was in the theater took out I was I was not like a theater, theater person. But

what she's trying to say is she wasn't a theater nerd what she's saying.

I love theater nerds. I love them. But I that was those that was that wasn't my crowd. Yeah, I think do you and

I are too self conscious to fully commit to Cerebro to cerebro. For me to like, I

think it's just like, too true. Yeah. No fuckers, you want to like, I down and on just for a minute. So

funny meaning because I felt the same. Like I would try out for stuff. And then I would be like young girl law.

Super intense 100% of the time. I don't feel about this Chenoa y'all don't have it in me to like fully commit every ounce of my life to this. Like, I would like to try a wine cooler and making time for wine. I need to be able to throw up and like go to a football game and do all that shit. But I I loved my theater camp. I went to a theater camp and I loved singing and I loved I loved it so much. And then

I felt like seeing her eyes. Oh,

I love to sing. I actually really, really regret not putting more effort into singing because I'm a pretty good singer. I have to say I'm not bad. And I love it. It brings me so much joy. And I sing all day. I sing a lot a lot. And I was thinking about taking voice lessons again, which I really needed to actually do. I'd like to do it in person though. I don't want to do it virtually.

Have you taken them as an adult? No,

I haven't. And I really really want to i that dad?

I took voice lessons as an adult and I wept so much worse, which is apparently a theme. Of course it is. And I I did it just because reading I was fucking up my voice all the time. Like have I kept losing my voice and someone was like, you probably don't know how to breathe. And I was like, I'm I'm an adult and I'm alive. I'm pretty sure I know how to breathe. No, you don't. But I don't I actually don't know how to breathe correctly. So someone was like, you should try singing lessons. And I was like, Oh, that's a good idea. Because like because I don't care. I don't care what my singing voice is like or what? You know, I was like, Oh, that's good. I could like learn how to breathe. And I didn't know that I was basically paying for like an hourly mental breakdown.

Dude, I we got home yesterday from being in Connecticut for the week. And I was like, I need to get on my spin bike. I'm going somewhere with this. And I was like, I don't usually. I usually play ones with hip hop because I'm obsessed with 90s Wrap. And I'm like, No, I need something else today. And I'm like

can't wait where it's going to not wait.

18:09

Oh, interesting. A Taylor Swift ride. Oh, cute.

Let me see. Let me see. Maybe I'll just be in for like a fun little like, chill ride. Yeah,

18:19

I literally started bawling. I'm like, spinning and singing to Taylor Swift.

Oh, wow. Oh, wow. But you never know where it's gonna come from. But I really believe that. You're, every time I sit so often when I say I should say and in music just has had that effect on me since I was a baby. since I can remember where it literally moves me. And I know so many people feel the same. I don't understand people and that's fine. I don't need to who don't like listen to music all the time. It blows my mind. I'm like, What do you mean you don't you're not constantly looking for new artists and feeling the feeling the beat and memorizing the words and like letting it speak to your soul. And people are like no, like, oh, just me.

I feel I don't trust people who who don't like music or who are like yeah, no, I don't need to listen to music. And people who don't like dogs. I'm just I'm like,

Oh, I feel like music has saved my life so many fucking times. And I don't then I don't I'm not being dramatic. I had

no I think No I think you're right I don't disagree with that but I it's just so you're not sad and the bull to me how someone couldn't resonate with it. You know what I mean? Like, I'm I'm so with you on that but like when people are like yeah, I don't know and I

take it or leave it. It's like good writing. Like you're like what you don't you

know, it didn't make you feel something like like in the

depths of your yeah saying no, but you know, I get Most people are just made. i Well, here's the thing, I don't know what the narrative is with, with you. I don't think it was like that in your family. But I think I grew up around a lot of people where creativity wasn't certainly wasn't prioritized, nor was it celebrated. It was like, very much, oh, if you're creative, you go in this room, if you're, you know, the rest of you are like, very sports oriented, and like, you know, kind of more clean line stuff. And so I felt a lot of pressure to, to do what my friends were doing, and just play sports, even though I fucking hated them. Which is interesting, because obviously, later in life, I became so into movement, and as a way to create and as a way to connect with my creativity. But at that point, it was just like, run seven miles, like, get your ass kicked, and it wasn't fun for me. But I definitely abandoned myself in that in that decision. And it's so sad, but I think a lot of people don't think they're creative. And if they do, they're, like, get to a certain point where you're like, alright, well, it's time to grow out of that now, and time to get, you know, get going on this adult stuff or whatever, which is just usually, I mean, it's just so sad because so many people lose their voices, which I think is why a lot of people probably lose their shirt too. And they do singing lessons, because you're actually opening up that space and, and speaking, singing, breathing, releasing, like, there's a lot there.

I saw on Instagram, I forget which person maybe it was sit with wit or IRIS McAlpin, I can't remember who was talking about why singing makes us happy that it literally does make us release something and like, they were relating it as to why you can feel so much calmer. When you sing. You're seeing lullabies to children that like literally, it does something to us, you know, which is interesting. But to your point, though, I hate the idea that if you choose creativity, or choose a creative career, lifestyle, whatever, that you're destined to have no money.

It's one of my I get so mad about it makes

me crazy, because and I think in my house, there was a little bit of that of like, my mom could be creative. And like my mom worked for the Royal Academy in London, she's done tons of things. It was like she could do that, like she could like, like it was a luxury or something, even though it was still work, you know, like my mom was a docent and gave tours and had to know the entire collection. Like, that's a lot of work, you know, and it was literally a job. People literally come for tours, you know. And there was this attitude of like, Oh, she could do her little theme because my dad was successful. My dad doing the like, smart thing, responsible thing, you know, like, that was more valuable or something. And it drives me crazy. We were just reminded about it in the pandemic, of what is life without creative work? What is life without art, what is life without beauty? It sucks. And in, in a really dark moment in the pandemic. You know, what were most people consuming when they were taking a break from like wine? It was art art, or, you know, it was art and like, what are some of the fields that do generate the most money. It's like production, which is a very creative field, it's advertising, which is a very creative feel like, it makes me so crazy. And I think one of the things that has continually helped me and helped me generate income in my life has been my creativity and willingness to use my imagination or envision different solutions or things like that, that I get so tired of that. And I think that we chalk it up to money, capitalism, or whatever. But I think it's really more of this the the fear of vulnerability, that if you're really going to take a creative path in life, there's a lot of vulnerability associated of just being like, Yeah, I'm going to do this thing. I'm going to do this things a little more high risk in our society. I'm going to do the thing that makes me lay myself a little bit more bare, or be on my own or whatever. And that is hard. The you know, that is a harder path to take. But there are I can name like, millions of friends of mine. I mean, millions is a gross exaggeration. But like,

24:38

go ahead, Anna named million. All right. Okay.

All right. I'm ready. Number one, Nina. Number one, but I would say like the majority of the people in my life are doing well and can pay their bills and things like that, and work in creative fields. They're there. They're using creativity in some way. I have several friends who are working artist in, I just think it's, it's if that's something like listeners are interested in like, yeah, it might be hard there might not be like a clear path or like structure of like, do this and then do this, you know, but there's more than enough money to be made, you know, making our creative thing

100% And that is an obviously, you know, I'm a creative person and I'm married to an artist and we've had so many conversations about. He's been studying art has been artists his whole life, like, that's all he's, I mean, he's done 1000 other jobs. Like, he's

also very humble, but went to one of the best art schools in the country, especially for painting, you know, ways like, unbelievably educated and trained in art, you know, like, in talented, I mean, to be able to even go to that school and then survive it and then still make art after it is an incredible feat to you know, like, yeah, he's

25:58

a creative household

over there. He

also told me the other day, we were driving home, and I was we were talking about buying house. And he's like, Well, if we want a guest house, and they don't have one, like, I can build one of them, like, with your hands. And he's like, Yeah, I'm like, you could, like actually build the house. He's like, for sure. I'm like, with like wood. And he's like, Yes, and I can build the house. I'm like, a full house, you could build a full house. What am I bring to this marriage and an apocalypse? Like absolutely nothing. I can't cook. I can't build houses. I can't like, I guess I'd have to learn how to chop wood carry water. But like, I just, I'm like, What do you mean, Bill? The fuck?

I think you would have to sing a lot. And I'd have you would say, the performance, like that would

be would be the art of just like eat home. Okay. But we talked a lot about, especially at the beginning of our marriage, you know, when we were leaving the country coming back to this one. Just I think it was so different in Mexico, because obviously, things were a lot cheaper where we were, or maybe not, obviously, but they were until they weren't. But anyway, they were mostly and you could definitely live a much nicer life at a much lower price. But when we, when we got back here, and it was like, here comes the baby. And, you know, I think there's a lot of pressure to, to figure it out. And he was like, Alright, I'm gonna, you know, bartend and I'm like, No, you're not. And he's like, Well, we got to make money. And I'm like, You're gonna, you're not gonna bartend first of all, you're not gonna leave the house. I was gonna say, first of all, you're not allowed to leave the house. First Five. Literally, once it's four o'clock, it's dark.

It's late, it's nighttime tie dye dime.

But, you know, I was like, if we, if we can work it out, which we can. And if we have to trust that you just have to put your head down and do what you do in our first place. There was this like, really shitty, haunted ass garage situation that just happened to be on our property. And nobody was using it because it was fucking terrifying. And I was and he started painting in there. And it he certainly was inhaling things he shouldn't have been inhaling the way that he's exhaled all of that sense. But he just he, we didn't make excuses. You know, we weren't like, and I'm not. That's not a shame, like, a comment that's meant to be shame, about about shame. But it's like, we were just like, we got to work with what we got, you know, yeah. And if it doesn't make money for as long as a year for you to be happy, and a whole person like this is, this is part of who you are. And you don't have to feel like that about something, right? You don't have to feel like, oh, I need to paint, or I will die. But yeah, if you're slowly dying in a career that you don't like, or even just want to express yourself at home, in a safe way, that's doesn't you don't have to monetize it. I mean, if you want to do it for a career, you can if you don't, and you just want to do it. That's so, so, so important to it's equally as important. You don't have to monetize it just for it to matter, right. And I think that's a huge thing that I have to keep coming back to and creativity. And art is like everything you love doesn't have to be monetized. Everything that you create does not have to be marketed. Like stop no falling into the trap of fucking capitalism, which listen, I'm obviously I'm, I live in a capitalist place. I like money. I want a nice house. Like, I'm not going to pretend I'm going to like, live off the land and camp like it's not in my DNA at this moment. Well, but I don't want to be just a prisoner to it either. And I find myself getting stuck in that shit all the time where I'm like, maybe you just need a minute to think about what you actually want to create before you start thinking about why it would fail or why it wouldn't be you know, successful or bla bla bla

Uh, well, I think I mean that I, I'm glad you're bringing that up because I as someone who I do a lot of shit that never sees the light of day, you know, and I go through a lot of creative phases. In fact, I'm surprised every summer I usually get into making people like friendship bracelets and necklaces. I guess my fucking friendship bracelet. I know, I didn't I didn't get into it this summer. It's funny. I don't know why I think I was maybe, you know, to preoccupy and thinking about my Italian residency, but, um, I Yeah, it took over my beating thoughts. Because my thing also do as as soon as it gets warm, I'm like, by brain, I'll see you in the fall, like, I just get real dumb. And I'm like, I want to sit on the beach and like, make beaded shit. But um, I think that a lot of stuff comes up around giving yourself permission and realizing that a lot of the standards we sort of evaluate things against, you can't with creative stuff. It's a lot more related to I think spirituality and channeling the people want to realize it, but you just got to kind of do it, for the sake of doing it. And you have to do it a long time that way, until you have any idea why the fuck you're being called to do it. and I are glad that you know, radio personality extraordinaire, creator of This American Life has this beautiful thing about like, when you are first starting to do work. And it's like, what you need to trust is that you have a point of view and you have a vision, but like you're new to doing something. So get through your early work fast, because it's going to be bad. And I think most people put the stakes of creative work to high and don't really appreciate anyone you see on Instagram out in the world, me who is really accomplished and talented at something. They came to that with a millimeter of raw talent, and then they work their ass off to get really good at it. And it's funny because Nina's husband way,

he can draw up in a way that is like photo real. And I had asked him I was like, I don't eat. I was like, I don't want to sound dumb. But I'm curious, like, do you draw that? Or is it? Do you print it? Is it a screen print? Because I couldn't quite tell of his work? He's like, Oh, no, I draw that it takes me like 10 minutes. And I was like, Holy shit, you can do that. That's incredible. Like, how do you do that with your blog, and and that's an unreal. And he's like, Yeah, but you know, it's boring. Like, I could do it all day, but it's boring. But what I had an appreciation for was like to be able to do anything photo real, especially portraiture is incredibly difficult. And I love that he doesn't do it, you know, that he's like, man, it didn't work for me. And I a lot of that discomfort of really being, you know, true to yourself pushing past the fears of who am I to think I have anything to say or put out in this world. You know, pushing past, the perfectionism of nothing you put out in the world is ever going to be as perfect as it is in your head. You know, like all of that sort of stuff. Like you have to check so much of your brain and just sort of be in connection with your your body, and your feelings in order to like, do anything. And that's really hard. And I think a lot of people really long to do it. And really long to have a creative practice. I mean, there are tons of people, there are tons of like coaches out there printing money, I think over selling workshops to people about harnessing and tapping into their creativity because people really want to, but I think everybody is a bit too hard on themselves, and doesn't have enough patience to do anything well, creatively. Like usually there's going to be a little bit of that spark that shows you that like, it's fun, there's something there, you should keep going. And then it's going to take you a while like it's been really my mom's an artist and pretty much has been an artist her whole life, however, took a bit of a big break from it. And it's been really cool to watch her, you know, change her life and move to New York from Atlanta, and really dedicate herself to her art practice. And she was at first just worked in pastels and then learned a new medium. And she has been learning oil painting for the past few years and to watch her progress and her come along has been really inspiring to me to like, push me keep myself going that anyone who is good at anything creative, like there's a lot of work. There's just a lot of work and a lot of like wasted hours and I think we've gotten into this too. society where we want everything to be very tidy. And like I'd get, I put one hour in, I get one hour of enjoyment, and then I can do that, you know, and it's like, any creative practice is just going to be like, you know, like, I don't agree to that, you know, it's just going to sort of laugh in your face, and you're just gonna have to show up for it. Like, I like what you said about way instead, like, besides the fact that he wouldn't be allowed out to bartend. But then, um, like you said, for him to be able to show up as a full person. And I, that is a really important thing that I think there's lots of people walking around, but denying what either art means to them or creativity means to them could be affecting your ability to be a full person.

Yes. Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And we have to honor that, you know, and yeah, and in our selves in our partners, and I think that's, you know, I had a client once who was talking about can you

use your own creativity to help him vision a different way?

You know, and my forceful Aries energy?

Well, you also, like, first of all, I'm very strict. So number one, no, there will be no, there will not be leaving the home at night. So

we're gonna have to vision. Fuckin miserable, obviously.

Oh, come on. I mean, that would have been he who could do that, you know,

so many years in the city, and was like, busting, like working till 4am. Like, oh, you're gonna do that with a with a new baby? Yeah, like, Oh, absolutely. Not. So, anyway, but what I, you know, he, I don't think you'd mind me saying, but if even if he does, I'll just apologize later. I think it'll be fine. He, he way is such a super progressive, but also traditional dude, in that, I think he is very, this is a really fucked up thing to admit, but we were, we were with someone I won't name and I was talking about, you know, I was like, This sounds really sexist, and, you know, patriarchal in some way. But I, I would like to be like, I didn't grow up with what I thought was someone, a male figure who was like, I knew is going to protect me, you know, like, and I know that that's not always a healthy thing, necessarily. But I do think that as part of a role of what I would like, to be surrounded by a man is stability and structure and like, and he takes that really seriously, right? Like, yeah, he wants, I don't, I don't want him to, like, provide for the family fully. But I would like to feel safe, you know, in His presence that way. However, nothing is worse. Your partner not being happy, settled fully, if you can, if you can do something differently, and you guys can create that together and see that together. Yeah, it's not only been huge for him in his career, and financially, but our marriage, like I don't, how could we have a marriage that would actually be based on? You know, it just wouldn't feel real to me would be, it wouldn't be I wouldn't be honoring him, you know, or myself, because I would know that he wasn't really happy. But But anyway,

financial stability, too, though, is like one factor. The end, I think, like, some of what you're saying is like, you know, maybe the, like he, you know, like the way maybe he was trying to pursue financial stability of like, I'll go, I'll go bartend or whatever. You're like, no, like, you can be a better provider, like protectors, you know, like, man, by actually being true to you. Yes. You know, like and who you are like, That, to me is like, that's partnerships. Like, that's where it comes in of like, it doesn't have to look like it does in the world that it's like we're taking, you know, it's like we're taking the theme. And then like, how does it play out for us? Totally. Oh, totally. And I don't know about you, but I have a lot of friends, who their relationships with their fathers are very complicated because there was a lot of unmet desire around expressing their creativity, a lot of frustrated musicians, a lot of frustrated artists who had to just go get serious jobs or whatever to be dads, and that does that system doesn't seem to work either.

No, because here's the thing that just what you said perfectly encapsulates what I feel in my my thoughts about it is structure doesn't have to be one way right? Like it may we can we can take something that feels very archaic and like, dads provide Yeah, and like, honor that Yeah. There are certain instincts that men have and certain instincts that women have and like, I believe that that's true. I No, yeah, on some level. But I also know that there's, we have to do with that what we feel is right for us and how so what is structure and stability for you? What is safety for you? How am I going to feel safe? In my world if my husband's not home, and he's bartending to me, that doesn't feel safe to me that feels Yeah, like a lot of anxiety at home alone at night. Yeah, does not feel good. Yeah. So that doesn't that makes me so much sense to me and translate as like, Oh, he's helping provide for us. No, he's late. He's left us. And now I'm alone with this baby. And my husband's miserable, and he's going to come home miserable. And I'm going to feel bad that he was gone, doing something he hated like it. That's just not the life I'm interested in living like, Yeah, I agree. So you also have to be creative in the way you structure your life, if that's if you wish to have different kinds of life. Right? That then that, and I think about that so much when I see. You know, in Hudson, it's very different, because there's a lot of creative people here. And so a lot of people are living like, I'm like, Are you independently wealthy? Like what's happening? How do you just like, not go to work or do whatever, you know, it doesn't seem like you do much, but you must. Anyway, there's obviously a million different ways to live you, you talk about that all the time, when I will go back to where I'm from. A lot of people are living a lot more, I'd say on the traditional kind of path. And so it's, for me, that was a hard thing to shake. Even though my parents were very non traditional, very untraditional, non traditional, non traditional, non traditional, that it was still hard for me to be like, Okay, well, how do I get out in the world prove myself do well financially and also not live on in this kind of weird square way? And yeah, it that takes time, that takes so much time I think

it does, I mean, I come from a kind of my mom is very liberal and Arty, but I would say I came from kind of a more conservative, traditional family. And, like, when I went to art school, it was a little bit like, you would have thought I was like, at first the attitude was a bit like, as if I was going to like, I don't know, like, I don't want to insult anyone, but like, I don't know, like a trade school. Like it was a bizarre attitude at first, you know, like, and people were very like, No, you're so smart. Like, why are you going to art school. And within like, a month of being there, I was like, fuck everyone, because it was so hard. I was like, I will never be put down about this ever again. You know, I was like, I would love to see so many of these people who were like, oh, art school, you know, like, try to hack it a week here, you know, it was so intense in terms of the workload, because I think in a lot of ways they were preparing us for, like, you're gonna have to work harder, like, if you're going to be outside the norm, the you know, and you're going to be maybe outside sort of, like corporate structure, like, you're gonna have to work harder, you're gonna have to prove yourself, like, that's just how it's going to kind of be. But I think it's like, if you can incorporate that in a way, where you're not battling it all the time, or you're not measuring yourself up and you just sort of own like, I've made a different choice, then I think it opens so much up for yourself and you, you can make a lot of money and like you don't feel bad, you know, comparing yourself to other people. I think a lot of people have sort of like the artists wound, and they think in order to make art or be creative, you have to be suffering. And that is a different thing. In my opinion. I think if you want to be a really working artist, you have to treat it like a job like anything else. So a friend of mine, Chelsea Seltzer, I will shout her out, she and her husband, will Chelsea has an art practice, and is a very successful artists on her own. But she and her husband now collaborate and make these insane paintings and sculptures and very cool. They're, yeah, they're awesome. And she and I were talking about that. And she was saying, how much people will be like, well, you're like, you don't like come get lunch? And she's like, I can't I'm in the studio. And they're like, Yeah, but like, come on, like you can blow it off. And she's like, I can't like this is my work, you know, like, work or doesn't get made if I'm not in the studio and anyone I know who really makes a living off their art or creative practice. Like that's how it has to be treated. And it's really difficult in the sense of you have to walk this line of like sort of letting things come when they do you can't just sit there and be like paint or emote or figure things out. But you do have to have a lot of structure and a lot of the people and discipline, you have to make yourself do it, you have to sit down and do it, you know, you have to show up. And among other people who are sort of like men, or I didn't make money, or whatever, I find they fall a little bit into having unrealistic expectations of they like kind of did something once and if the world didn't, you know, stand up, applaud and throw money at them, then they deemed it not successful, and you can't make money doing that, you know, they quit, essentially. And I don't know that that's the agreement, either. I do think creativity is a little bit more of a long haul, you know, it's a longer investment you have to make, and it's much more of a process and, like a commitment than it is something that you you can do once and hope that you know, you make a million dollars or you become a success. Yeah, I'm curious. So, art itself, Fine Art has always been in my life. Like when we would travel, it was a joke that my mom would have to like, bribe my brother and I with like pastries and things, because we would be like, we can go into another church Durling we can't see you another fresco, we you know, like, she would drag us to see all the art my mom, her background is in fine art in art history. So not only did you have to go see all the art, but she had to tell you all about it as well. And so I've always had an appreciation for it. And it's been amazing to be in Italy, where I feel such a freedom to like, love beauty in a way like I love like, you go into these places, and like the mosaic floors. And it's like, they didn't do that to like boost the value of the home. They did it just because it's beautiful. And if you could do something beautiful, why wouldn't you? You know, like, it's just been amazing. And like a bomb for me. I didn't know I needed that. I'm curious. What's your relationship with fine art and beauty? Like, do you? I now realized it was so important to me and like oxygen?

Well, it's super embarrassing, because when I don't have I don't have a lot of feelings about fine.

So I'll be honesty.

Okay. I just don't have a lot of feelings. I believe.

You're just confessing that you're a robot. But hear me out. Okay. judgment free zone. Okay.

I appreciate deeply the work that I see. Right, like we went, we went to the museum in the at Yale and was like, Oh, my God, there's so much here. It's like crazy that wow, wow. That's a really nice collection. Yeah, incredible place. And there are certain pieces there that I'm absolutely blown away by. And then there are certain pieces that I'm like, Huh.

And I think that's fair. I think that's normal. Okay, I'm willing to honor

I feel a lot of pressure and fine art. And I think that that's really, for a long time made me feel like, I don't want to get into it because I don't want to. I don't the information doesn't really stick for me the way it does for a lot of people. So I'll see something many times. But I don't necessarily remember who the artist is. And I

think that's fine, though. It'd be but does it make you feel something? Yeah, but

it does it? It certainly does. However, there are other There are definitely things that make me feel way more. And so I'm if you're like, would you go to a museum or a concert that's like small and, you know, intimate and whatever I would, I would choose a concert. Like I would rather be listening and feeling music than I would standing in front of a piece of art. Probably. That doesn't surprise me about you, though. Yeah. But I think that that's a lot of my attention span to I have a leg I think it's hard for me to it's hard. I think you have to train yourself to look at our you know, I really do you have

to realize you can't get it wrong. I hear all the time that people are intimidated. Yeah. Like, I don't understand that because I just didn't have a choice. My mom was like, you will like art. So like, I didn't have to navigate that. You know, like I've always my relationships always just gotten like deeper and deeper with art, but like, I've never it's always been in our house. You know, like, you know, my parents have like we're buying art. You know what I mean? Like it's never been something I didn't Feel like I had access to. So I'm curious, like, are you afraid of like, getting it wrong? Or like liking bad or I'm

not. First of all, let's be honest. Of course not. Of course, I'm not afraid of liking bad art. I mean, I have impeccable taste.

First of all, I have impeccable taste

of great taste. If there's something I'm not, don't feel insecure about. It's my taste, but Well, yeah, that's

why it surprises me to be honest, you know,

that. There's going to be like a test. That's how I feel. I feel like there's going to be a test and I. And I feel like yeah, the worlds in which people discuss, and I think where he's talked a lot about this, too. You know, being in the art world, he's like, there's just so much pretentious, bullshit that it's like it Listen, it's like that in every space. But I think that's what's held me back from really going deeper into it. I remember being really into my art history class in college. So obviously, I have feelings for it. But I do think that it is intimidating for me and it's not something that I get right away. Where I know if I like something right away or I know if I feel something right away. But as far as going into like the those next couple of stages that I feel like there are on like, okay, well what do I do now? You know, where I? Yeah, where it comes more naturally to me, in like in music and different types of art that I feel like when I'm standing in front of fine art, I feel like a little kid who's someone's gonna, like, even when you're like fine art, I'm like, Oh, shit, there's going to be a test. Like, I feel very nervous about it.

Yeah, that bums me out for people to be honest. Like, because I think that our is for everyone. And I think that the most of the people who are shitty about it, or make people feel bad about it, are people who don't make anything and the way they sort of earn their keep in the art world is like making you think they know something you don't yeah. So anytime you say I really liked this, and someone's like, Oh, really, or whatever. Just know, they're gonna hassle. I mean, it's real simple. That I do think there's, I mean, there's nothing, there's probably few careers field that has more gatekeeping, then art, and I think it gets chalked up a lot to money, which obviously is a factor for sure. But I think it's much more about people, I think the insecurity people have of wanting to belong and be in that world, but maybe don't produce art, I think is much more of a source of the gatekeeping than than money ever thought about being.

Yeah, it's, you know, I'm definitely it's being married to an artist, obviously, someone. People asked me, you know, like, what's his medium and like things about his art. I'm like, his art is great. You should check it out. I don't want to talk too much about it, because I love it. And I don't need to really know why I love it. Because I understand his art. And that's I think, because a lot of because I understand him, you know? Yeah. And so it speaks to me, obviously, on a different level. And I'm like, Oh, of course, of course that came from you. And I think it's, it makes me feel things very much. But yeah, it's it's, it's interesting. It's definitely I think that's what what held me back for a long time in just owning my creativity and owning our as something I wanted to be in, you invested in and involved with is that I feel like people, there's kind of, you know, a lot of a lot of pretension and a lot of like, a lot of just judgment sometimes around these in these spaces. And I think it's hard for people to break to crack that.

Yeah, I mean, I definitely struggled. I felt like I Parsons, and at times in the art world, like I wasn't cool enough or cerebral enough, you know, that I was like, you know, I really like fine art. And I really like Bob's Burgers, you know, like, exactly. Oh, wait, I

don't like burgers. But you but I have so appreciate that eyebrow lowbrow. Yeah, and I think that makes you a better artist in my, you know, I agree no more, because it's all rounded person.

It's super limiting to just be like anything. It's also really subjective and subjective and arbitrary. And so one of my favorites, if sometimes you can catch it in an interview with an artist or on video or, like a piece or something. Anyway, my favorite is when the interviewer or a critic or someone's like, when I look at your piece dog, uh, you know, being on low, I think of how society is paying off, you know, and they're like, actually, it's just a funny thing I saw on vacation. You know, like, that is my favorite. You know, like, when people talk about how much gets projected onto art and like how much is really like them trying to be like, let me think of what this submarine labral tears on Yeah, you know, like, and you know, and I make fun of my mom about that. I'll be like, Oh, yes, Mum, you know, and it would be really funny to like I did this whole series that was really quite good when I was a teenager. And people are like, yes, it's about her grief of her father. No, the I'd taken the film to a Walmart and they fucked that up. And it looked super cool and made it way moodier. You know, so, I mean, I just like Zach, something like as we start to wrap up, like I want to offer anyone who wants to do anything like, your art doesn't have to be cool. It doesn't have to be good. It doesn't have to be cerebral, it literally just has to be something you want to take from your head and your heart or whatever. And you want to see in the world that is so you know, whether that's with your hands, your eyes, your singing, like whatever you want to do, I think it's really, really important. If you feel that desire, you don't have to put it on Instagram, you don't have to shout about it. But I think it is so important, it honors you honor it because nothing has been brought more goodness, or enrichment or confidence or people I love into my life then following are in my creative practice.

I agree, and nobody has to approve of it, and nobody has to understand it. No, and

that if you need someone to encourage you about your practice, come to me and I will tell you how to like, I will help bolster your confidence to refute all the assholes who want you to defend it.

Yeah, it's like, people don't need to get what you're doing for it to be valuable or, you know, meaningful at all. And I think that we've gotten really, really lost, obviously, and just the production of things and likes and all this bullshit that we think we I think that stops the process for people dead in their tracks to where it's like, oh, I'll just write a short novel on Instagram. And then I'll write a book, you know, and maybe that's going to be your past, but a lot of stuff that writers write that never sees the light of day, it's just, you know, and that singers sing and that artists draw their this is a lot of it is a private practice. And then whatever you choose to put out in the world is your choice. It's not. It's not for anybody else. If other people if it resonates with other people, that's wonderful, but that's not the purpose. Yeah. And when I, when it becomes the purpose, I have found, it just changes everything. And then it becomes something that is no longer mine, or, and I get bored of it. If I start creating for somebody else. And I then I know I'm far away from my intention in that I'd started with and then I'm like, fuck this, I'm out,

well, then it becomes a job. And then and this might also be a bitchy side note, but I do want to add it in that I would also like, I have mixed feelings about this trend with people on Instagram and in newsletters and stuff of just barfing emotion and wanting to call a call that art. And I'm not sure that it is. And I think sometimes if that's maybe what you're up to, to ask yourself, how do you really want to be seen? Because you want to be seen? And how could you honor that? In a way that maybe? I don't know. I don't know that just doing that just emoting is the same as making art. And I don't think it feels the same in our bodies.

I feel like it's like selling ourselves a little bit, you know? Yeah. And

I think yeah, I think it is a bit I think it's like, and I get it, I'm not really judging it, and I get it. And I think it's a process and I'm so grateful when I went through that process, the Internet didn't really exist, because all of my emotional sluttiness you know, got to be private or just taken on disposable cameras, so I understand it however, I would say to people like take the fact that you want to see something or you have a perspective seriously and maybe be more protective of it is more my think like you're you're putting all this stuff out there that I think you should like hold for yourself to figure out what you you really want to do with it maybe what you what you really want to channel that in because yeah, I get the appeal of putting it all on Instagram, but like, then you've just given people a whole lot of info about yourself and I don't know, I just think it's, I think we're getting

I think what you might be also trying to communicate correct me if I'm wrong is like the sacredness of it. Yes, you're at least that's how I feel like, right, like art is sacred, and your emotions are sacred and we don't have to share all of them to be seen. And sometimes the process is so worth it and so beneficial to then figure out what is mine to hold and keep for myself. Yeah. And what is mine to share with the world? Because once you share it with the world that also isn't yours anymore.

Yeah. And, and then it's just like you have your answer to it whether or not you want to or people are like, Well, you said this yes, that and I'm like, and then you're engaging with it. And I just think it dilutes it dilutes you, it dilutes your assets, in my opinion, you know, so I asked my point, I'm not really saying like, Oh, that shitty or anything. I'm just more like, I see it happening, especially with people younger than us. And I'm just like, you're kind of, you're diluting your work whether or not you know it, you know, like, yeah, and yeah, that if you can build up your resistance to that discomfort of muddling through all that stuff, and going, Oh, I have all these feelings and said, like, if you can be with yourself through that your work will get stronger, you know. And you will get stronger you and you'll get stronger. Yeah. And in your head will be less filled with other people's opinions, which I think is yes. Other people's trauma. Yeah. And just junk junk, truly. Yeah. All right. Well, all right. No, just Happy Friday.

Yes, we've solved Yeah, so you're welcome.

You're welcome. If you longed to be creative, tell us what you want to make. We. Yeah, I guess.

I guess guys, we'll talk to you next time. Bye. Ciao for now. Ciao, ciao.

1:01:41

That's all for today's episode.

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