1 00:00:00,781 --> 00:00:02,971 W. Curtis Preston: There are three types of people in this world. 2 00:00:03,211 --> 00:00:07,711 Those who think you need to back up SaaS services like Microsoft 365. 3 00:00:08,101 --> 00:00:09,181 Those who don't. 4 00:00:09,511 --> 00:00:11,491 And those who still aren't sure. 5 00:00:12,031 --> 00:00:14,971 If, what we talk about in this episode, doesn't persuade you 6 00:00:14,971 --> 00:00:16,651 to back up things like that. 7 00:00:16,951 --> 00:00:19,111 I don't know what will hi. 8 00:00:19,411 --> 00:00:21,571 I'm w Curtis precedent, AKA Mr. 9 00:00:21,571 --> 00:00:22,111 Backup. 10 00:00:22,381 --> 00:00:25,231 If you're not familiar with me, I've been fighting the backup fights since 11 00:00:25,261 --> 00:00:27,691 my first job and it over 30 years ago. 12 00:00:28,081 --> 00:00:30,451 I've also written for O'Reilly books on the topic. 13 00:00:30,691 --> 00:00:34,231 And this episode, you'll hear how Microsoft and Salesforce have both 14 00:00:34,231 --> 00:00:38,671 admitted their services need to be backed up . Then we discuss the all-important 15 00:00:38,671 --> 00:00:43,741 question of whether or not you should use their backup services or a third party. 16 00:00:44,241 --> 00:00:46,281 This is an extremely important episode. 17 00:00:46,331 --> 00:00:47,651 This is backup. 18 00:00:47,651 --> 00:00:49,001 Central's restore it all. 19 00:01:10,808 --> 00:01:14,198 Hi, and welcome to Backup Central's Restore All podcast. 20 00:01:14,198 --> 00:01:16,898 I'm your host, w Curtis Preston, a k a, Mr. 21 00:01:16,898 --> 00:01:22,938 Backup, and I have with me my used car consultants Prasanna Malaiyandi. 22 00:01:22,958 --> 00:01:23,438 How's it going? 23 00:01:23,438 --> 00:01:23,958 Prasanna. 24 00:01:25,343 --> 00:01:27,203 Prasanna Malaiyandi: I am good, Curtis, how are you doing? 25 00:01:28,148 --> 00:01:29,848 W. Curtis Preston: Well, I can't get rid of my car. 26 00:01:30,332 --> 00:01:31,522 Prasanna Malaiyandi: I, I don't know what to say. 27 00:01:31,672 --> 00:01:35,392 I think it's one of those love-hate relationships where you sort of fall in 28 00:01:35,392 --> 00:01:40,793 love with a car and you think it's amazing and everyone else is like, wait, what? 29 00:01:42,442 --> 00:01:42,892 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah. 30 00:01:43,102 --> 00:01:46,222 Well, this is not my first time like buying a new car and then selling 31 00:01:46,222 --> 00:01:48,562 my old car, uh, person to person. 32 00:01:49,082 --> 00:01:53,132 It kills me that my current asking price is lower than what 33 00:01:53,132 --> 00:01:55,022 I sold my wife's Honda Fit at. 34 00:01:55,832 --> 00:02:00,422 Which had a little, a little bit fewer miles, but a Honda Fit and a Toyota 35 00:02:00,422 --> 00:02:05,192 Prius, those are not equivalent cars. 36 00:02:05,242 --> 00:02:09,622 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Prius has a loyal following, but the 37 00:02:09,622 --> 00:02:11,212 loyalists will buy a Prius. 38 00:02:11,212 --> 00:02:15,772 I think a fit has a wider audience of people who would potentially buy a fit. 39 00:02:15,772 --> 00:02:15,832 I. 40 00:02:15,915 --> 00:02:17,990 W. Curtis Preston: So you think that I've lowered my tam, 41 00:02:18,347 --> 00:02:19,217 is that what you're saying? 42 00:02:19,772 --> 00:02:21,752 Prasanna Malaiyandi: And it also doesn't help that the new 43 00:02:21,752 --> 00:02:23,162 Prius just came out as well. 44 00:02:24,917 --> 00:02:26,077 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, well, we'll see. 45 00:02:26,377 --> 00:02:28,777 Um, somebody will buy the dang thing. 46 00:02:29,077 --> 00:02:32,287 This is gonna be, I'm gonna enjoy this episode. 47 00:02:32,983 --> 00:02:34,843 You know why I'm gonna enjoy this episode, right? 48 00:02:35,133 --> 00:02:36,903 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Because it's one of your pet peeves. 49 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,070 W. Curtis Preston: Well, first off, I, I just say like, like an overarching 50 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:42,980 thing that I have always said. 51 00:02:42,980 --> 00:02:46,780 All my career is back up all the things, right? 52 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:53,537 And throughout my entire career, things pop up and people say, 53 00:02:53,837 --> 00:02:55,577 this doesn't need to be backed up. 54 00:02:57,932 --> 00:02:58,412 Right. 55 00:02:59,672 --> 00:03:01,652 Can you, can you think of some of those things? 56 00:03:02,642 --> 00:03:05,432 What can you think of, like, over the years people have said that 57 00:03:05,437 --> 00:03:06,752 don't, doesn't need to be backed up. 58 00:03:07,792 --> 00:03:10,762 Prasanna Malaiyandi: well, so way back in the day, virtual machines, 59 00:03:11,822 --> 00:03:12,722 W. Curtis Preston: Virtual machines? 60 00:03:12,722 --> 00:03:13,202 Yeah. 61 00:03:13,352 --> 00:03:14,102 Um, 62 00:03:14,552 --> 00:03:19,892 the, I was, yeah, I was thinking like, I was thinking like raid, 63 00:03:20,072 --> 00:03:21,872 that was the first thing I remember. 64 00:03:22,382 --> 00:03:24,232 Like, they're like, oh, well we haven't done in hard drives. 65 00:03:24,842 --> 00:03:26,972 We don't need to back it up, we ever done in hard drives. 66 00:03:27,092 --> 00:03:31,592 Um, how do the redundant hard drives help when you delete a file 67 00:03:31,592 --> 00:03:33,482 or drop a table in a database? 68 00:03:34,142 --> 00:03:34,412 Right. 69 00:03:35,372 --> 00:03:37,802 Um, yeah, you're right though. 70 00:03:37,802 --> 00:03:38,672 It's like different. 71 00:03:38,702 --> 00:03:44,522 There, there are different other, um, I think with VMs, people would 72 00:03:44,527 --> 00:03:48,602 say like there were a lot of VMs that didn't need to be backed up. 73 00:03:48,632 --> 00:03:49,082 Right. 74 00:03:49,592 --> 00:03:51,122 Different types of. 75 00:03:51,722 --> 00:03:53,792 Servers, like you're saying, like file servers. 76 00:03:53,942 --> 00:03:56,582 Well, when you say file servers, do you mean like na, 77 00:03:58,157 --> 00:03:58,577 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yes. 78 00:03:58,592 --> 00:03:59,942 W. Curtis Preston: you know, like, like filers? 79 00:03:59,942 --> 00:04:00,392 Yeah. 80 00:04:01,022 --> 00:04:03,092 Uh, yeah. 81 00:04:03,182 --> 00:04:08,102 And, and, and that, that one, you know, that one we can sort of, it's like, the 82 00:04:08,102 --> 00:04:11,642 question is if you have a NetApp right? 83 00:04:12,332 --> 00:04:17,042 And you're using snapshots, you're using Snap Mirror and SnapVault and 84 00:04:17,042 --> 00:04:20,432 all these things, and you've, you've got the data, you've got the history. 85 00:04:21,122 --> 00:04:23,702 You've got it replicated in multiple locations. 86 00:04:24,242 --> 00:04:26,132 Is that backup? 87 00:04:26,732 --> 00:04:28,652 I would kind of say yes. 88 00:04:29,012 --> 00:04:33,572 Um, as long as we've got something to protect from the 89 00:04:33,577 --> 00:04:36,482 rolling code, uh, problem. 90 00:04:36,487 --> 00:04:38,492 The, the rolling code, disaster problem. 91 00:04:38,492 --> 00:04:38,762 Right. 92 00:04:38,767 --> 00:04:42,242 So we got a new version of the new code and it wipes out all the data. 93 00:04:42,242 --> 00:04:44,162 The, the thing that's never happened, but the thing that 94 00:04:44,162 --> 00:04:45,182 I always worry about, right? 95 00:04:45,857 --> 00:04:46,217 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 96 00:04:47,252 --> 00:04:49,502 W. Curtis Preston: If you've got a way to deal with that, then 97 00:04:49,502 --> 00:04:50,972 I would say that that's backup. 98 00:04:51,572 --> 00:04:58,922 Um, what, how about, um, like, um, Cassandra and the like, 99 00:05:00,782 --> 00:05:04,292 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Oh yeah, those, the databases, the multi-node cluster 100 00:05:04,472 --> 00:05:08,822 databases where it's like, yeah, data is replicated, don't need to worry about it. 101 00:05:08,822 --> 00:05:12,272 But like you said, Curtis, it's you drop a table, what are you gonna do? 102 00:05:13,922 --> 00:05:14,282 Right. 103 00:05:14,672 --> 00:05:16,172 And I think this is where a lot of people can, 104 00:05:17,162 --> 00:05:19,412 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, I was gonna say, never underestimate the 105 00:05:19,412 --> 00:05:22,022 ability of people to do stupid stuff. 106 00:05:23,672 --> 00:05:26,042 Prasanna Malaiyandi: well, and this is like we, we always talk about, right? 107 00:05:26,042 --> 00:05:28,712 I think people confuse availability. 108 00:05:29,192 --> 00:05:29,612 W. Curtis Preston: Mm-hmm. 109 00:05:29,672 --> 00:05:30,002 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Right. 110 00:05:30,002 --> 00:05:32,252 And resiliency for backup. 111 00:05:33,242 --> 00:05:34,352 W. Curtis Preston: Right, right. 112 00:05:34,562 --> 00:05:34,922 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Right. 113 00:05:35,672 --> 00:05:38,072 Where you're protecting sort of the system level. 114 00:05:38,282 --> 00:05:38,582 Yeah. 115 00:05:38,702 --> 00:05:39,092 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah. 116 00:05:39,212 --> 00:05:39,632 Yeah. 117 00:05:40,892 --> 00:05:43,262 And, and right next to raid would be like, ha. 118 00:05:43,817 --> 00:05:44,627 We've got Ha. 119 00:05:44,927 --> 00:05:45,977 Right, that was the thing. 120 00:05:45,977 --> 00:05:47,177 That was the term back in the day. 121 00:05:47,177 --> 00:05:49,457 We've got ha, it's highly available. 122 00:05:49,727 --> 00:05:51,917 It's replicated to multiple locations. 123 00:05:52,037 --> 00:05:52,697 That's the other one. 124 00:05:52,697 --> 00:05:52,997 Right. 125 00:05:52,997 --> 00:05:56,657 Is a replicated system just in general, not necessarily these 126 00:05:56,657 --> 00:06:03,107 multi-node databases, but we've got a, a active, active full replication. 127 00:06:04,547 --> 00:06:07,037 And, and what's the why? 128 00:06:07,067 --> 00:06:08,297 Why is that? 129 00:06:08,957 --> 00:06:09,767 Why is that? 130 00:06:09,797 --> 00:06:11,387 Why do I still wanna back that one up? 131 00:06:12,527 --> 00:06:15,797 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Because like you said, even if you drop a table 132 00:06:15,797 --> 00:06:19,547 that gets replicated over because that's what those systems do. 133 00:06:19,692 --> 00:06:22,112 W. Curtis Preston: It, it makes your stupidity more effective. 134 00:06:23,642 --> 00:06:24,092 Right? 135 00:06:24,272 --> 00:06:25,382 Or, or a hack, right? 136 00:06:25,387 --> 00:06:27,032 Or, or, or a cyber attack. 137 00:06:27,482 --> 00:06:32,852 Uh, or, you know, some kind of something that attacks the 138 00:06:32,852 --> 00:06:35,342 data on a logical basis, right? 139 00:06:35,342 --> 00:06:37,412 Logical as opposed to physical, right? 140 00:06:38,612 --> 00:06:43,202 Um, I'm trying to think what else before we get to the topic at 141 00:06:43,542 --> 00:06:47,312 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah, so the other one, I think the other thing 142 00:06:47,342 --> 00:06:52,652 that people kind of going along with clustered, uh, databases, Kubernetes, 143 00:06:54,002 --> 00:06:56,012 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, that was gonna be my next one too. 144 00:06:56,882 --> 00:06:57,032 They're 145 00:06:57,032 --> 00:06:57,482 like, oh 146 00:06:57,482 --> 00:06:59,012 it's a, it's ephemeral. 147 00:06:59,017 --> 00:07:02,162 It's um, you know, we don't 148 00:07:02,297 --> 00:07:03,827 Prasanna Malaiyandi: yeah, you probably still need to back that up. 149 00:07:04,007 --> 00:07:04,277 Yeah. 150 00:07:04,787 --> 00:07:06,287 Or yeah, Kubernetes. 151 00:07:06,287 --> 00:07:10,427 The other one I was also thinking is just like public cloud, right? 152 00:07:10,457 --> 00:07:11,357 Infrastructure. 153 00:07:11,357 --> 00:07:14,177 Write your own applications hosted on the public cloud. 154 00:07:14,867 --> 00:07:15,107 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah. 155 00:07:15,107 --> 00:07:17,117 Well, let's, well, let's, let's talk about that one next. 156 00:07:17,117 --> 00:07:18,437 Let's talk about the Kubernetes thing. 157 00:07:18,707 --> 00:07:22,277 The thing with Kubernetes, well, well, Docker right containers. 158 00:07:22,277 --> 00:07:26,057 Like if we just look at containers historically, originally they 159 00:07:26,057 --> 00:07:27,347 were meant to be ephemeral. 160 00:07:27,647 --> 00:07:31,637 That they were, they were, they were not meant to, to have data originally. 161 00:07:31,637 --> 00:07:36,167 And I remember being told, When I, you know, whenever I, when when a new 162 00:07:36,167 --> 00:07:39,527 thing comes up, my ears perk up and I'm like, how do we back this thing up? 163 00:07:39,532 --> 00:07:46,847 And I remember asking people that knew Docker, uh, how do I back this thing up? 164 00:07:46,907 --> 00:07:47,357 Right? 165 00:07:47,627 --> 00:07:50,777 And their answer was, you know, I'm like, well, there's gotta be data. 166 00:07:50,777 --> 00:07:56,567 And basically what they said back then was that if your containers had permanent 167 00:07:56,567 --> 00:07:59,267 data in them, you are doing it wrong. 168 00:07:59,837 --> 00:08:02,807 That was, that was what it was back in the day. 169 00:08:02,957 --> 00:08:05,297 That has absolutely changed. 170 00:08:05,417 --> 00:08:05,807 Right? 171 00:08:06,227 --> 00:08:09,527 So now, now we need to know two things. 172 00:08:09,647 --> 00:08:14,597 One, how to back up like doc, the Docker and Kubernetes configuration, 173 00:08:14,897 --> 00:08:19,097 and then also how to back up the, the, the actual data. 174 00:08:19,307 --> 00:08:22,547 Somebody, I, I think it was actually Steven Manley that we had on the 175 00:08:22,547 --> 00:08:25,337 show that that said things like that. 176 00:08:25,637 --> 00:08:28,487 It's a pretty boring application that doesn't have any data. 177 00:08:29,132 --> 00:08:29,522 Prasanna Malaiyandi: yep. 178 00:08:31,127 --> 00:08:32,537 W. Curtis Preston: Does that sound like something Steven would 179 00:08:32,537 --> 00:08:32,867 say? 180 00:08:33,302 --> 00:08:34,982 Prasanna Malaiyandi: That would be something Steven would say. 181 00:08:35,567 --> 00:08:36,017 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah. 182 00:08:36,077 --> 00:08:39,527 Like, like any, any application that is worth anything is 183 00:08:39,527 --> 00:08:40,967 gonna have data attached to it. 184 00:08:41,567 --> 00:08:46,307 Um, and yes, theoretically, I suppose you could have a database 185 00:08:46,312 --> 00:08:48,797 that's not in, in a container. 186 00:08:49,337 --> 00:08:52,517 Being used by something that's in a container, but, 187 00:08:52,517 --> 00:08:56,687 and, and that way the database, which is fine, and, but that database would then 188 00:08:56,687 --> 00:08:58,577 be protected via whatever mechanisms. 189 00:08:58,577 --> 00:08:58,847 Right. 190 00:08:58,997 --> 00:08:59,207 But 191 00:08:59,387 --> 00:09:00,107 Prasanna Malaiyandi: You still need to back 192 00:09:00,167 --> 00:09:02,147 W. Curtis Preston: need to protect the configurate, you need 193 00:09:02,147 --> 00:09:03,437 to protect the configuration. 194 00:09:03,617 --> 00:09:03,977 Right. 195 00:09:04,577 --> 00:09:08,237 Uh, but the, but the one that you just brought up though, the, 196 00:09:09,062 --> 00:09:09,782 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Public cloud. 197 00:09:10,367 --> 00:09:10,637 W. Curtis Preston: yeah. 198 00:09:10,637 --> 00:09:11,297 The public cloud. 199 00:09:11,417 --> 00:09:14,777 I, I, I've never been able to, do you say ias? 200 00:09:14,777 --> 00:09:15,617 What do you say? 201 00:09:16,472 --> 00:09:18,422 I A A Ss, it's not 202 00:09:18,627 --> 00:09:18,992 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 203 00:09:19,022 --> 00:09:19,502 I a 204 00:09:19,742 --> 00:09:20,852 W. Curtis Preston: and it sounds weird. 205 00:09:21,602 --> 00:09:22,082 Yeah. 206 00:09:22,262 --> 00:09:22,952 Um, 207 00:09:23,252 --> 00:09:23,702 so yeah, 208 00:09:23,702 --> 00:09:24,332 Prasanna Malaiyandi: as a service. 209 00:09:24,332 --> 00:09:24,662 Yep. 210 00:09:24,872 --> 00:09:32,852 W. Curtis Preston: infrastructure as a service, um, and this is one, this is 211 00:09:32,857 --> 00:09:34,593 the one to me that's the easiest to. 212 00:09:36,272 --> 00:09:38,882 To shoot down, if you will, right? 213 00:09:39,272 --> 00:09:43,142 Because if you talk to anyone at a W Ss, they will go, yes, you 214 00:09:43,142 --> 00:09:44,852 absolutely have to back this up. 215 00:09:45,152 --> 00:09:45,572 Right? 216 00:09:45,662 --> 00:09:48,062 It's unequivocal, it's in the documentation. 217 00:09:48,302 --> 00:09:49,622 They're like, make sure you back it up. 218 00:09:49,622 --> 00:09:52,412 Make sure you put it in another region, put it in another account. 219 00:09:52,417 --> 00:09:54,392 This is proper backup configuration. 220 00:09:54,692 --> 00:10:00,152 If you, if you just have an e c two instance, for example, nothing 221 00:10:00,152 --> 00:10:03,392 is happening with that host from a backup and recovery perspective. 222 00:10:03,887 --> 00:10:05,867 Unless you do it on purpose. 223 00:10:06,107 --> 00:10:13,637 There are other things in a w s, such as r d s that has default backups built 224 00:10:13,637 --> 00:10:16,787 into it, but even those who need to do something more than the default. 225 00:10:16,967 --> 00:10:21,227 More than the default, because a hack of the account could 226 00:10:21,227 --> 00:10:23,687 delete everything, right? 227 00:10:24,407 --> 00:10:25,217 Um, 228 00:10:26,567 --> 00:10:26,867 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 229 00:10:27,032 --> 00:10:31,172 W. Curtis Preston: Do you agree with the point that that one's relatively easy 230 00:10:31,172 --> 00:10:35,882 to shoot down People that think that you don't need to back up the public cloud? 231 00:10:37,472 --> 00:10:38,732 I know it happens a lot, 232 00:10:39,497 --> 00:10:39,947 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 233 00:10:40,307 --> 00:10:41,087 Yes. 234 00:10:41,087 --> 00:10:43,547 I especially, I think, yeah. 235 00:10:44,342 --> 00:10:47,852 And I think people are now realizing that they have to, I think the 236 00:10:47,852 --> 00:10:50,012 challenge becomes how do you do it? 237 00:10:50,012 --> 00:10:52,592 Because there are a variety of, is, uh, ways you could do 238 00:10:52,592 --> 00:10:54,302 it, like you mentioned, right? 239 00:10:54,302 --> 00:10:57,602 Depending on what a w s service or cloud service you use, maybe it has 240 00:10:57,602 --> 00:11:01,622 built-in backup, maybe it has APIs, maybe it doesn't have anything at all. 241 00:11:01,622 --> 00:11:06,902 And so you need to sort of pull data out in other ways and back it up some. 242 00:11:06,957 --> 00:11:07,307 W. Curtis Preston: Right. 243 00:11:07,907 --> 00:11:10,307 Prasanna Malaiyandi: The other thing I was also thinking like if I think about like 244 00:11:10,487 --> 00:11:15,557 one of the common things I heard is like, hey, with AWS S3, right, object storage, 245 00:11:15,977 --> 00:11:17,627 you don't need to back it up, right? 246 00:11:17,632 --> 00:11:22,727 Because it's sort of, depending on what you pick, it's replicated between multiple 247 00:11:22,727 --> 00:11:24,737 availability zones within a region. 248 00:11:24,737 --> 00:11:27,947 You could replicate it out to a separate region as well. 249 00:11:28,907 --> 00:11:31,787 But then that's not good enough, like you said, because you can delete it. 250 00:11:31,787 --> 00:11:33,137 The deletions propagate, right? 251 00:11:33,137 --> 00:11:35,357 But that's where a W s introduced like versioning. 252 00:11:36,272 --> 00:11:39,272 So you can have versions of objects that you can keep track of, so 253 00:11:39,272 --> 00:11:40,772 that kind of becomes your backup. 254 00:11:41,657 --> 00:11:44,627 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, it, it's basically the cloud version of the NetApp 255 00:11:44,627 --> 00:11:46,847 thing that we talked about earlier, right? 256 00:11:47,357 --> 00:11:52,187 Like, so a lot of people due to both the versioning and the multi-zone 257 00:11:52,187 --> 00:12:00,227 replication, um, and also features like, um, right locking are, are, what's the 258 00:12:00,227 --> 00:12:02,657 actual term that, yeah, object lock. 259 00:12:02,657 --> 00:12:03,107 Thank you. 260 00:12:03,557 --> 00:12:05,177 Um, that you can. 261 00:12:05,777 --> 00:12:09,647 You can protect yourself against an awful lot with built in S three. 262 00:12:09,647 --> 00:12:14,927 That's why a lot of people, um, don't, most people don't back up the SS three 263 00:12:14,932 --> 00:12:17,177 s three doesn't make it easy to back up. 264 00:12:17,927 --> 00:12:18,347 Right. 265 00:12:18,497 --> 00:12:22,817 Um, I, I know 'cause I used to work at a company that was trying to do 266 00:12:22,822 --> 00:12:24,407 that and it wasn't, it wasn't easy. 267 00:12:25,007 --> 00:12:27,377 Um, the, um, 268 00:12:28,397 --> 00:12:29,717 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Do you wanna throw out our disclaimer? 269 00:12:30,317 --> 00:12:30,707 W. Curtis Preston: yeah. 270 00:12:30,707 --> 00:12:31,697 Throughout our disclaimer. 271 00:12:31,697 --> 00:12:32,117 Yeah. 272 00:12:32,237 --> 00:12:35,057 Uh, so this is an independent podcast. 273 00:12:35,552 --> 00:12:38,972 This is, uh, Prasanna and I bloviating about backup and 274 00:12:38,972 --> 00:12:43,172 recovery and related topics and, uh, the opinions that you hear. 275 00:12:43,172 --> 00:12:44,762 Ours, not our employers. 276 00:12:44,942 --> 00:12:47,282 I mean, they may be not necessarily our employers, I 277 00:12:47,282 --> 00:12:48,452 think would be the official term. 278 00:12:48,932 --> 00:12:52,952 And, um, you know, if, if you like us, rate us. 279 00:12:52,952 --> 00:12:53,942 If you hate us. 280 00:12:54,977 --> 00:12:56,237 I need something that rhymes. 281 00:12:56,327 --> 00:13:01,337 Uh, you know, if you like us, go to, go to your favorite, you know, pod catcher 282 00:13:01,337 --> 00:13:03,107 and, uh, give us some stars and comets. 283 00:13:03,107 --> 00:13:04,097 We love the comets. 284 00:13:04,577 --> 00:13:06,977 Uh, you know, oh, if you hate us, don't rate us. 285 00:13:06,977 --> 00:13:07,547 That's what it is. 286 00:13:07,547 --> 00:13:08,477 If you hate us, don't rate us. 287 00:13:09,107 --> 00:13:14,597 Um, and, um, if you, uh, would like to join the conversation, 288 00:13:14,597 --> 00:13:15,497 we'd love to hear from you. 289 00:13:15,587 --> 00:13:17,837 I am at WC Preston on Twitter. 290 00:13:18,527 --> 00:13:26,477 I am now w Curtis Preston on threads, uh, linkedin.com/in/mr backup. 291 00:13:27,797 --> 00:13:31,247 So, um, or, or w Curtis Preston gmail. 292 00:13:31,427 --> 00:13:35,447 You can reach me any one of those ways and I will, uh, be happy to 293 00:13:35,452 --> 00:13:37,187 get you, get you on the podcast. 294 00:13:38,537 --> 00:13:41,387 Uh, but what about the topic at hand that's gonna allow 295 00:13:41,387 --> 00:13:42,467 us to say, I told you so? 296 00:13:43,232 --> 00:13:43,712 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 297 00:13:44,192 --> 00:13:44,462 Yeah. 298 00:13:44,462 --> 00:13:48,932 The one thing that we did not talk about so far is SaaS applications, 299 00:13:49,292 --> 00:13:49,862 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah. 300 00:13:50,017 --> 00:13:54,867 Prasanna Malaiyandi: So like, Google Workspaces or Microsoft 365. 301 00:13:54,867 --> 00:13:55,887 Or Salesforce. 302 00:13:56,217 --> 00:14:00,957 All of these applications, which you are putting your data into your, they 303 00:14:00,957 --> 00:14:04,889 provide all the infrastructure, the application, and you just use a service. 304 00:14:06,492 --> 00:14:07,032 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah. 305 00:14:07,092 --> 00:14:07,512 And. 306 00:14:08,337 --> 00:14:17,187 Unlike the previous things that we talked about, there seems to be, again, 307 00:14:17,217 --> 00:14:23,187 me, based on having argued the same exact point for the last 30 years, 308 00:14:23,187 --> 00:14:25,157 but just against different things. 309 00:14:26,137 --> 00:14:35,307 It seems to me that, um, in the case of SaaS, I get much 310 00:14:35,337 --> 00:14:37,317 stronger arguments against. 311 00:14:38,082 --> 00:14:39,402 Have you, have you seen that? 312 00:14:41,352 --> 00:14:41,712 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 313 00:14:41,772 --> 00:14:43,902 It's like, oh, they're providing everything. 314 00:14:43,902 --> 00:14:45,582 Why should I care about this? 315 00:14:45,612 --> 00:14:48,972 And I know Curtis, you and I just even looking at consumer. 316 00:14:49,272 --> 00:14:49,872 SaaS, right? 317 00:14:49,872 --> 00:14:53,352 We, you did your experiment right with iCloud Apple's iCloud, right? 318 00:14:53,352 --> 00:14:54,912 And how do you back it up? 319 00:14:54,912 --> 00:14:57,642 I would say that's a SaaS service, right? 320 00:14:58,122 --> 00:15:01,302 And yet there weren't many good ways to back it up. 321 00:15:01,302 --> 00:15:04,662 And as we talked about, right, there are issues with keeping all that 322 00:15:04,662 --> 00:15:09,402 data there being locked out of your account or just losing the data and 323 00:15:09,432 --> 00:15:11,052 how do you actually take a backup 324 00:15:11,142 --> 00:15:13,902 W. Curtis Preston: yeah, and, and, and with the iCloud, if you 325 00:15:13,902 --> 00:15:15,432 have a phone, you have an iPhone. 326 00:15:16,782 --> 00:15:24,102 Oh, you're, hang on. 327 00:15:24,552 --> 00:15:26,082 I didn't hear anything you just said. 328 00:15:26,172 --> 00:15:30,732 I got, I got, um, what, what, what did you just say? 329 00:15:31,397 --> 00:15:31,402 I. 330 00:15:32,142 --> 00:15:36,102 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Oh, I was just saying about how with 331 00:15:36,132 --> 00:15:39,822 iCloud, right, you basically. 332 00:15:41,067 --> 00:15:43,767 You're responsible for backing it up, right? 333 00:15:43,767 --> 00:15:48,057 That there, if you get locked out of your account right, you basically 334 00:15:48,057 --> 00:15:50,517 lose access to the data and they don't make it easy to back it up. 335 00:15:50,967 --> 00:15:53,907 W. Curtis Preston: A lot of people are moving to SaaS because they don't want to 336 00:15:53,907 --> 00:15:56,637 administer, let's say, exchange anymore. 337 00:15:57,267 --> 00:16:00,567 They don't want the hassle of everything that came with administering 338 00:16:00,567 --> 00:16:02,547 exchange, one of which was backup. 339 00:16:03,417 --> 00:16:07,767 And so, and they may have been sold a bill of goods somewhere along the way 340 00:16:07,767 --> 00:16:13,527 by somebody that said, well, if you, if you go to 365 or whatever, then you 341 00:16:13,527 --> 00:16:14,667 don't have to worry about backup either. 342 00:16:14,667 --> 00:16:16,047 We handle backup, right. 343 00:16:17,007 --> 00:16:17,877 Except they don't. 344 00:16:18,972 --> 00:16:24,312 There's nothing in the, in the, um, terms of service that say backup and restore. 345 00:16:24,942 --> 00:16:31,062 Um, there are actually occasional parts in the documentation 346 00:16:31,067 --> 00:16:32,412 that use the word restore. 347 00:16:32,832 --> 00:16:34,512 You can restore files that you've deleted. 348 00:16:34,512 --> 00:16:38,082 You can restore emails that you've deleted, but it's not really a 349 00:16:38,082 --> 00:16:41,682 restore, it's really just pulling it out of essentially a recycle bin. 350 00:16:42,102 --> 00:16:44,592 Um, there there is a slightly fancier recycle bin. 351 00:16:44,592 --> 00:16:47,502 They, they do have this concept of retention lo uh, retention. 352 00:16:48,297 --> 00:16:50,457 Uh, features, right? 353 00:16:50,937 --> 00:16:58,437 But as we've previously talked in previous episodes, the retention, uh, 354 00:16:58,467 --> 00:17:04,572 policies, Can actually be as harmful as, uh, you know, not having 'em, 355 00:17:04,572 --> 00:17:08,622 because there is a story about K P M G accidentally deleting a whole 356 00:17:08,622 --> 00:17:11,082 bunch of data using retention policy. 357 00:17:11,082 --> 00:17:14,952 So they're trying to use retention policies to retain data and they actually 358 00:17:15,102 --> 00:17:21,792 accidentally deleted data on 150,000 employees and there is no back button. 359 00:17:22,332 --> 00:17:22,752 Right. 360 00:17:23,322 --> 00:17:23,502 Uh, 361 00:17:23,532 --> 00:17:25,812 Prasanna Malaiyandi: And I think they were under regulatory. 362 00:17:26,592 --> 00:17:26,922 Yeah. 363 00:17:26,922 --> 00:17:29,322 But I think it was under regulatory obligations as well. 364 00:17:29,457 --> 00:17:29,997 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah. 365 00:17:30,057 --> 00:17:30,537 Yeah. 366 00:17:31,077 --> 00:17:40,497 Um, and so given all of that, what Prasanna, what Pray, tell happened 367 00:17:40,497 --> 00:17:45,507 in the last week or so that would allow me to say, I told you so? 368 00:17:46,137 --> 00:17:50,037 Prasanna Malaiyandi: So I ran across an article by Chris Miller on the 369 00:17:50,037 --> 00:17:55,077 register called Microsoft User Content Backup for Microsoft 365. 370 00:17:56,172 --> 00:18:02,832 So it looks like Microsoft has finally come around and they are now 371 00:18:02,862 --> 00:18:06,642 doing native user content backups. 372 00:18:09,217 --> 00:18:14,677 W. Curtis Preston: My question would be, Prasanna: why does something that 373 00:18:14,677 --> 00:18:18,007 doesn't need backup ...need backup? 374 00:18:19,942 --> 00:18:20,452 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 375 00:18:22,462 --> 00:18:23,602 They've had a change of heart. 376 00:18:25,457 --> 00:18:26,657 W. Curtis Preston: Here's what I think happened. 377 00:18:27,257 --> 00:18:33,437 The Microsoft 365 backup market got big enough 378 00:18:33,617 --> 00:18:33,947 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yep. 379 00:18:35,237 --> 00:18:37,577 W. Curtis Preston: and they said, in a meeting someday, " did 380 00:18:37,577 --> 00:18:40,717 you know that currently there are a hundred million people?" 381 00:18:41,217 --> 00:18:42,957 'cause they will have the data, right? 382 00:18:43,407 --> 00:18:48,087 They will know exactly how many users are using third party backup and recovery. 383 00:18:48,417 --> 00:18:51,987 And they're like, we have a hundred million users that 384 00:18:51,987 --> 00:18:53,817 are using third party backup. 385 00:18:54,762 --> 00:19:00,132 At an average of, let's say $3 a user that's $300 million a 386 00:19:00,132 --> 00:19:03,132 month, that should be ours. 387 00:19:03,822 --> 00:19:06,612 And so they said let's bring the service out. 388 00:19:07,317 --> 00:19:09,717 Prasanna Malaiyandi: I think the other thing, and I don't know if 389 00:19:09,717 --> 00:19:13,947 this is true or not, but I know that with how Microsoft does their 390 00:19:13,947 --> 00:19:19,797 APIs, right, that there's usually limitations placed when you're doing. 391 00:19:20,442 --> 00:19:21,492 Backups, right? 392 00:19:21,492 --> 00:19:23,982 Because you're basically calling the same set of APIs to pull the 393 00:19:23,982 --> 00:19:26,352 data out as a backup vendor, right? 394 00:19:26,352 --> 00:19:29,712 And so there are certain limitations in terms of the number you could do and 395 00:19:29,712 --> 00:19:34,152 how quickly, and so maybe they've also decided to sort of centralize a lot of 396 00:19:34,152 --> 00:19:38,982 that into a single place to make it more efficient for these backup operations. 397 00:19:38,982 --> 00:19:41,972 I kind of go back and think about VM VMware, right? 398 00:19:41,972 --> 00:19:44,282 When they're like, Hey, backup teams, why don't you guys just 399 00:19:44,282 --> 00:19:46,022 use whatever APIs are out there? 400 00:19:46,022 --> 00:19:47,792 And then they sort of were like, okay, no. 401 00:19:47,797 --> 00:19:53,222 We need to create the right backup specific APIs for VMware so it can be 402 00:19:53,222 --> 00:19:57,392 more optimized and targeted for backup use cases, which is very different 403 00:19:57,392 --> 00:19:59,912 than your standard, normal use case. 404 00:19:59,912 --> 00:20:00,212 Right? 405 00:20:00,212 --> 00:20:02,702 So maybe Microsoft came around. 406 00:20:03,307 --> 00:20:05,277 W. Curtis Preston: that's a really good point, Prasanna. 407 00:20:05,467 --> 00:20:07,037 I actually hadn't thought about that. 408 00:20:08,017 --> 00:20:15,397 That this release of this, or impending release of backup for Microsoft 365 409 00:20:16,237 --> 00:20:26,617 perfectly coincides with the release of the backup APIs, which are now, um, uh, 410 00:20:26,662 --> 00:20:27,382 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Available to other 411 00:20:27,382 --> 00:20:28,222 vendors, right? 412 00:20:28,432 --> 00:20:28,762 Yeah. 413 00:20:28,807 --> 00:20:29,257 W. Curtis Preston: right? 414 00:20:29,467 --> 00:20:34,272 Because for those that didn't know this, Microsoft didn't have backup APIs. 415 00:20:35,207 --> 00:20:35,497 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 416 00:20:35,697 --> 00:20:36,177 W. Curtis Preston: Right. 417 00:20:36,477 --> 00:20:42,867 Basically in order to back up 365, you had to basically pretend to be 418 00:20:42,867 --> 00:20:51,837 a person accessing 365 via the O w A, the Outlook web, uh, access. 419 00:20:51,867 --> 00:20:52,257 Right. 420 00:20:52,917 --> 00:20:55,587 And a lot of people don't realize that, right? 421 00:20:55,617 --> 00:20:59,847 'cause there were no APIs, so the only a p I they had was 422 00:21:00,117 --> 00:21:00,777 the one that, 423 00:21:00,942 --> 00:21:02,832 Prasanna Malaiyandi: there was no backup specific APIs. 424 00:21:03,492 --> 00:21:03,822 W. Curtis Preston: Right. 425 00:21:03,852 --> 00:21:05,462 No backup specific APIs. 426 00:21:05,682 --> 00:21:09,762 The APIs that were available were accessing, uh, outlook 427 00:21:09,882 --> 00:21:11,532 and whatnot via the web. 428 00:21:11,532 --> 00:21:12,612 It was called o w a. 429 00:21:13,422 --> 00:21:17,592 And so backup vendors, basically, I don't think reverse engineer 430 00:21:17,592 --> 00:21:19,242 might be a strong term, 431 00:21:19,302 --> 00:21:21,162 Prasanna Malaiyandi: were available, but they just weren't optimized. 432 00:21:21,162 --> 00:21:21,462 Right. 433 00:21:21,942 --> 00:21:22,302 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah. 434 00:21:22,332 --> 00:21:22,812 Yeah. 435 00:21:22,992 --> 00:21:31,452 And so, uh, but within the last year or so, Microsoft has come out 436 00:21:31,452 --> 00:21:35,832 with these specific APIs that are designed for backup, and then lo and 437 00:21:35,832 --> 00:21:38,772 behold, they said, we think we're gonna get into the backup game. 438 00:21:39,162 --> 00:21:42,492 I can think of a better parallel to this than VMware. 439 00:21:42,912 --> 00:21:43,392 Can you, 440 00:21:46,062 --> 00:21:46,632 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Oracle. 441 00:21:46,632 --> 00:21:48,492 W. Curtis Preston: you think of a No? 442 00:21:49,182 --> 00:21:49,542 No. 443 00:21:49,872 --> 00:21:55,422 Can you think of another cloud vendor that decided to get into the backup business? 444 00:21:55,632 --> 00:21:56,442 Prasanna Malaiyandi: A w s. 445 00:21:56,912 --> 00:21:57,202 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah. 446 00:21:57,822 --> 00:21:58,182 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 447 00:21:58,692 --> 00:21:58,962 Yep. 448 00:21:58,992 --> 00:22:01,812 A w s and their a w s backup 449 00:22:02,337 --> 00:22:02,757 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah. 450 00:22:02,877 --> 00:22:06,417 Now that one's a little bit different in that they don't charge for a w s backup, 451 00:22:06,417 --> 00:22:08,937 they just charge for what it does, right. 452 00:22:09,387 --> 00:22:13,587 But they decided to just sort of make it easier for people to create backups 453 00:22:13,587 --> 00:22:17,547 of their services without necessarily having to go to a third party backup. 454 00:22:18,477 --> 00:22:22,737 In this case, it looks like 365 will be charging for this service. 455 00:22:23,667 --> 00:22:25,327 And I just wanna say I told you so. 456 00:22:25,827 --> 00:22:26,847 That's all I'm saying. 457 00:22:27,087 --> 00:22:33,197 I just wanna say that Microsoft has validated all of us screaming out 458 00:22:33,202 --> 00:22:37,127 here in the rain going, Hey, why isn't anybody backing this stuff up? 459 00:22:37,157 --> 00:22:38,607 Now microsoft's "Oh! 460 00:22:39,107 --> 00:22:40,397 we can make money at this. 461 00:22:40,457 --> 00:22:41,567 We're gonna back this stuff up." 462 00:22:42,337 --> 00:22:45,577 the other parallel to this is what happened with Salesforce. 463 00:22:45,652 --> 00:22:45,982 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yep. 464 00:22:46,987 --> 00:22:51,397 W. Curtis Preston: Um, and, and this, this story's a lot weirder though, right? 465 00:22:51,727 --> 00:22:59,017 So Salesforce used to have their, um, their, I forgot what they called it, 466 00:22:59,307 --> 00:23:04,297 but they had this service that you didn't pay for where they were backing 467 00:23:04,297 --> 00:23:08,467 up Salesforce and you only paid for it if you needed to do a restore. 468 00:23:08,527 --> 00:23:08,827 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah, 469 00:23:09,592 --> 00:23:11,062 W. Curtis Preston: It was $10,000. 470 00:23:11,152 --> 00:23:15,202 It took like four to six weeks to get your data back. 471 00:23:15,277 --> 00:23:15,607 Prasanna Malaiyandi: there was no 472 00:23:15,607 --> 00:23:16,147 guarantee. 473 00:23:16,912 --> 00:23:17,182 W. Curtis Preston: yeah. 474 00:23:17,182 --> 00:23:18,172 No guarantee. 475 00:23:18,382 --> 00:23:22,042 And they gave you a bunch of CSS fees and at one point they came out 476 00:23:22,042 --> 00:23:25,282 and they said, um, you know what? 477 00:23:25,462 --> 00:23:28,282 This service, this is my, this is my paraphrasing. 478 00:23:28,282 --> 00:23:31,762 Of course, we decided this service is so horrible, we're 479 00:23:31,762 --> 00:23:32,962 not gonna offer it anymore. 480 00:23:33,142 --> 00:23:33,562 Right. 481 00:23:33,802 --> 00:23:35,242 Like, who would want to pay for that? 482 00:23:35,632 --> 00:23:38,152 The, the, the service level was so low. 483 00:23:38,752 --> 00:23:41,692 It just doesn't match the needs for our customers. 484 00:23:41,692 --> 00:23:43,642 And then what happened was there were a whole bunch of customers that were 485 00:23:43,642 --> 00:23:47,032 counting on that they were hoping they never needed it, but they were counting 486 00:23:47,037 --> 00:23:51,922 on it and they were telling vendors like, you know, uh, my previous employer 487 00:23:52,642 --> 00:23:57,322 to, uh, they say, we don't need, you know, we don't need you because if 488 00:23:57,327 --> 00:24:03,202 the, you know, feces hits the rotary oscillator, we will just pay this $10,000. 489 00:24:03,712 --> 00:24:08,137 And, um, We know it'll suck, but at least we don't have to pay for something. 490 00:24:08,137 --> 00:24:08,557 We don't need. 491 00:24:08,841 --> 00:24:11,241 Prasanna Malaiyandi: And then they came back and they were like, yep, we're 492 00:24:11,246 --> 00:24:12,831 gonna bring it back into business. 493 00:24:13,611 --> 00:24:13,851 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah. 494 00:24:13,851 --> 00:24:16,281 They, yes, they brought that back because so many people. 495 00:24:16,281 --> 00:24:16,551 Yeah. 496 00:24:16,821 --> 00:24:21,441 But, but then, but then they actually came out with a service like 497 00:24:22,011 --> 00:24:24,361 Microsoft 365 is doing with backup. 498 00:24:24,541 --> 00:24:26,271 My understanding is they release it. 499 00:24:26,841 --> 00:24:27,711 It wasn't very good. 500 00:24:28,101 --> 00:24:31,521 This is, this is a total paraphrase based on. 501 00:24:32,286 --> 00:24:36,276 Random stuff that I read, and I don't really know how true to life is, but 502 00:24:36,276 --> 00:24:40,596 my understanding is they, they came out with it, they unreleased it. 503 00:24:40,656 --> 00:24:43,236 The commercial product that you actually pay for, they released it, 504 00:24:43,266 --> 00:24:47,796 they unreleased it, and I believe they've released it again so that now 505 00:24:47,796 --> 00:24:51,276 there's a service that you can pay Salesforce and Salesforce back up. 506 00:24:51,711 --> 00:24:51,981 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yep. 507 00:24:53,216 --> 00:24:54,576 W. Curtis Preston: Let me ask you a question, Prasanna. 508 00:24:54,596 --> 00:24:58,766 What do you think from a generic perspective, this isn't Microsoft or 509 00:24:58,771 --> 00:25:08,466 Salesforce, what do you think about paying vendor A to back up vendor a. 510 00:25:11,556 --> 00:25:13,956 Prasanna Malaiyandi: So I go back and forth on this, right? 511 00:25:14,376 --> 00:25:19,971 So on the one hand, I'd rather not have all my eggs in one basket. 512 00:25:20,586 --> 00:25:20,936 W. Curtis Preston: Right, 513 00:25:21,411 --> 00:25:23,811 Prasanna Malaiyandi: It depends on how vendor A is doing the backup. 514 00:25:23,811 --> 00:25:26,811 Like if it's like, okay, you're gonna pull the data out and you'll let me 515 00:25:26,811 --> 00:25:30,981 put it into, say, like I could pull it out of Microsoft and write it to 516 00:25:30,981 --> 00:25:36,241 an AWS S3 bucket, like that would be a little less concerning, right? 517 00:25:36,241 --> 00:25:39,241 Rather than, okay, as Microsoft, I'm gonna pull your data out and I'm 518 00:25:39,241 --> 00:25:42,121 gonna throw it into Azure Blob and you don't get any control of anything. 519 00:25:43,171 --> 00:25:43,531 Right. 520 00:25:45,136 --> 00:25:48,106 So that's where I get a little queasy because it's like, how 521 00:25:48,106 --> 00:25:51,346 can you verify, validate that they're not screwing things up? 522 00:25:51,346 --> 00:25:55,756 And at the same time though, the other part of me from a technology side says 523 00:25:56,176 --> 00:25:59,326 they're the best people to build this because they can actually work with 524 00:25:59,326 --> 00:26:03,891 the internal developers, know the secret sauce, optimize it better than 525 00:26:03,891 --> 00:26:06,951 anyone else who's trying to reverse engineer things from the outside. 526 00:26:07,043 --> 00:26:09,949 W. Curtis Preston: I'm pretty sure you know that I'm much more the former than 527 00:26:09,949 --> 00:26:10,579 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah, I know. 528 00:26:10,939 --> 00:26:11,419 W. Curtis Preston: right? 529 00:26:11,729 --> 00:26:13,379 I'm just gonna say OVH Cloud. 530 00:26:13,499 --> 00:26:15,269 Just keep saying that over, over and over. 531 00:26:15,269 --> 00:26:18,839 And if you don't know what I'm talking about, They were the, this happened 532 00:26:18,839 --> 00:26:23,339 a couple years ago and they were, uh, they, they still are, uh, the largest 533 00:26:23,629 --> 00:26:26,239 cloud provider headquartered in Europe. 534 00:26:26,839 --> 00:26:30,369 And they had a giant data center fire, and it turns out that the backup 535 00:26:30,374 --> 00:26:35,109 system, which people were paying for was stored in the same place 536 00:26:35,109 --> 00:26:36,609 as the data that it was protecting. 537 00:26:36,759 --> 00:26:40,119 And so people lost backups and there's a big class action lawsuit. 538 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:41,109 I don't know what happened to it. 539 00:26:41,404 --> 00:26:42,634 I'm generally not a fan. 540 00:26:42,634 --> 00:26:43,024 I understand. 541 00:26:43,029 --> 00:26:44,459 I understand what you're saying. 542 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:50,854 Uh, because, so on one hand I'd say, yes, they are the, the best 543 00:26:50,854 --> 00:26:52,894 at, let's say, Microsoft 365. 544 00:26:52,894 --> 00:26:54,424 They will know it better than anybody else. 545 00:26:54,964 --> 00:26:59,194 What they don't necessarily know, and clearly history has proven this right. 546 00:27:00,184 --> 00:27:02,404 They don't necessarily know anything about backup, and that's 547 00:27:02,404 --> 00:27:03,394 the only thing I care about. 548 00:27:03,439 --> 00:27:05,659 Prasanna Malaiyandi: So here's another argument I have too, right? 549 00:27:05,659 --> 00:27:11,659 It's for people who aren't backing up today, they now get back up, right? 550 00:27:11,659 --> 00:27:12,579 Which is better than nothing. 551 00:27:12,739 --> 00:27:13,879 W. Curtis Preston: Something is better than nothing. 552 00:27:14,344 --> 00:27:14,599 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 553 00:27:15,139 --> 00:27:18,919 And I would also say the way that they're doing things, because it 554 00:27:18,919 --> 00:27:21,829 looks like they're still allowing you to bring your own third party 555 00:27:21,829 --> 00:27:23,479 to back up that data as well. 556 00:27:23,769 --> 00:27:24,189 W. Curtis Preston: Mm-hmm. 557 00:27:24,799 --> 00:27:25,219 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Right. 558 00:27:25,339 --> 00:27:28,369 And so I think if you do want that safety, like I think they 559 00:27:28,369 --> 00:27:29,449 have the best of both worlds. 560 00:27:30,574 --> 00:27:32,164 They've provided an API layer. 561 00:27:32,164 --> 00:27:36,244 So if you do wanna bring your own third party backup, you could do that for people 562 00:27:36,244 --> 00:27:40,414 who aren't backing things up, now you have a solution that is built into the product. 563 00:27:40,444 --> 00:27:44,314 You don't need to go procure something separately and manage and worry about it. 564 00:27:45,724 --> 00:27:50,584 But I think the one thing we should talk about though, Curtis, is what do you think 565 00:27:50,584 --> 00:27:56,614 are the questions that customers should be asking Microsoft to really figure out, 566 00:27:57,424 --> 00:27:59,164 is this going to meet their needs or not? 567 00:28:00,139 --> 00:28:01,099 W. Curtis Preston: 3, 2, 1, rule man. 568 00:28:02,929 --> 00:28:03,649 3, 2, 1 rule. 569 00:28:03,649 --> 00:28:04,519 That's all I gotta throw out. 570 00:28:04,579 --> 00:28:06,889 I mean, I, you know, it's been a while since we've said that phrase. 571 00:28:06,919 --> 00:28:12,169 I think the, the question is, uh, you know, how is this data being stored? 572 00:28:12,349 --> 00:28:14,299 How is it being protected against? 573 00:28:14,779 --> 00:28:19,279 Something that would take out whatever data center is hosting 574 00:28:19,369 --> 00:28:22,699 my particular, uh, what would you 575 00:28:22,699 --> 00:28:24,979 call it, instance of 365. 576 00:28:24,984 --> 00:28:25,369 Right. 577 00:28:26,089 --> 00:28:32,719 Um, how is it protected against a ransomware attack that would 578 00:28:32,749 --> 00:28:34,219 directly target my account? 579 00:28:34,489 --> 00:28:39,289 If somebody gains, I, I think about one worry that I would have is 580 00:28:39,289 --> 00:28:42,379 whether or not the backup system is administered by the same. 581 00:28:43,354 --> 00:28:47,614 Administrative console as the 365? 582 00:28:47,794 --> 00:28:51,544 I would hope not because of, you know, 583 00:28:51,739 --> 00:28:52,999 Prasanna Malaiyandi: It probably is though. 584 00:28:52,999 --> 00:28:57,049 Maybe and, but maybe it's based, but maybe it's based on roles. 585 00:28:57,199 --> 00:28:57,529 Right? 586 00:28:57,529 --> 00:28:59,539 So maybe they are providing an RBAC system. 587 00:29:00,964 --> 00:29:03,454 W. Curtis Preston: Well, I hope they're providing an RBAC system, but you know, at 588 00:29:03,454 --> 00:29:07,264 the top of the RBAC system is, at the top of that is gonna be like cloud admin or 589 00:29:07,264 --> 00:29:10,174 whatever, and you know, if somebody gains access, they can do whatever they want. 590 00:29:10,924 --> 00:29:13,354 Uh, I hope that it's a separate system. 591 00:29:13,564 --> 00:29:20,674 This is why I go back to how good are they at, you know, backup design. 592 00:29:20,674 --> 00:29:23,074 How good are they at, at, at compartmentalization? 593 00:29:23,104 --> 00:29:25,999 Um, Separation of powers and all 594 00:29:26,104 --> 00:29:29,674 Prasanna Malaiyandi: And how good are they gonna be in an ongoing fashion, right? 595 00:29:29,674 --> 00:29:31,894 Because features are gonna change. 596 00:29:32,419 --> 00:29:35,509 Backup landscape and the threat actors are gonna change as well. 597 00:29:35,509 --> 00:29:40,909 So are they gonna be focused on investing into keeping up with their backup 598 00:29:41,509 --> 00:29:45,199 offering, or are they gonna be like, Hey, we have something out there that 599 00:29:45,199 --> 00:29:46,879 kind of checks the box, if you will. 600 00:29:47,209 --> 00:29:49,999 And really we're gonna go build out the rest of Microsoft 365. 601 00:29:51,184 --> 00:29:54,514 W. Curtis Preston: I, I hope, um, and we should, we should look into 602 00:29:54,514 --> 00:29:55,864 this once it actually comes out. 603 00:29:57,064 --> 00:30:02,284 I hope that it's essentially a completely separate service. 604 00:30:02,344 --> 00:30:08,734 Like, you know, pick your favorite way to back up 365, that it has a separate 605 00:30:08,794 --> 00:30:10,894 authentication and authorization system. 606 00:30:11,254 --> 00:30:13,354 You know, um, 607 00:30:13,624 --> 00:30:14,194 Prasanna Malaiyandi: I doubt that 608 00:30:14,194 --> 00:30:14,494 though. 609 00:30:15,094 --> 00:30:15,964 I doubt that. 610 00:30:16,204 --> 00:30:18,274 I doubt that it'll have a completely separate uh, 611 00:30:18,319 --> 00:30:18,529 W. Curtis Preston: know what? 612 00:30:18,529 --> 00:30:21,289 It's gonna be all, it's gonna be all administered by Azure 613 00:30:21,859 --> 00:30:23,809 Prasanna Malaiyandi: No, not called Azure AD anymore. 614 00:30:24,979 --> 00:30:25,909 W. Curtis Preston: What's it called now? 615 00:30:25,999 --> 00:30:26,599 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Entra. 616 00:30:29,569 --> 00:30:29,959 W. Curtis Preston: You know what? 617 00:30:29,959 --> 00:30:38,329 I'm gonna log into X and talk about how stupid, I think renaming things are x. 618 00:30:41,989 --> 00:30:47,629 My, my man, my man, Elon can make nice car, but I don't know what he is doing 619 00:30:47,629 --> 00:30:49,729 over there with that, with that company. 620 00:30:50,389 --> 00:30:53,389 Um, sorry, I digress, 621 00:30:54,034 --> 00:30:56,134 Prasanna Malaiyandi: But hopefully, like you said, when they do, when 622 00:30:56,134 --> 00:30:59,224 we do find out more information about what the service offers, 623 00:30:59,224 --> 00:31:00,814 we will do an updated episode. 624 00:31:01,729 --> 00:31:02,149 W. Curtis Preston: yeah. 625 00:31:02,479 --> 00:31:05,779 I think we should do that for that and also for the Salesforce thing. 626 00:31:05,779 --> 00:31:11,659 But the summary statement is, I told you so Microsoft 365, Google Workspace, 627 00:31:11,659 --> 00:31:18,289 Salesforce, pick your favorite product, uh, you know, JIRA, that if, if it's, 628 00:31:18,289 --> 00:31:23,629 if it is a service that is creating and storing data that your company needs, 629 00:31:23,899 --> 00:31:25,609 that stuff needs to be backed up. 630 00:31:25,984 --> 00:31:26,144 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yep. 631 00:31:26,999 --> 00:31:30,349 W. Curtis Preston: The, the only question is how is it being backed up? 632 00:31:31,144 --> 00:31:37,024 In most cases, there's either no backup at all, like none. 633 00:31:37,954 --> 00:31:43,954 Or um, like in the case of 365, they do have a delayed replicated copy 634 00:31:43,954 --> 00:31:49,354 of exchange that will be used if like the O V H fire happens, right? 635 00:31:49,459 --> 00:31:50,719 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Microsoft purposes. 636 00:31:50,824 --> 00:31:52,144 W. Curtis Preston: For Microsoft's purposes. 637 00:31:52,144 --> 00:31:55,564 And I have verified with them as a Microsoft customer, I have verified 638 00:31:55,564 --> 00:32:00,739 with them that we cannot get access to that delayed replicated copy. 639 00:32:01,309 --> 00:32:04,129 So there may be some backups like that that are used. 640 00:32:04,129 --> 00:32:08,989 If the entire data center is, it goes up in a, you know, conflagration. 641 00:32:09,259 --> 00:32:13,579 But there's nothing that you can use for, let's say, a ransomware attack, 642 00:32:13,584 --> 00:32:15,409 which is probably much more likely. 643 00:32:15,844 --> 00:32:16,204 Prasanna Malaiyandi: yeah, 644 00:32:16,889 --> 00:32:19,669 W. Curtis Preston: or there's no backup whatsoever. 645 00:32:20,339 --> 00:32:23,929 Like they just back up the configuration, but not your data. 646 00:32:24,184 --> 00:32:24,484 Prasanna Malaiyandi: yeah. 647 00:32:25,399 --> 00:32:27,889 W. Curtis Preston: Because the shared responsibility model says 648 00:32:27,889 --> 00:32:29,839 that the data's your responsibility anyway. 649 00:32:29,899 --> 00:32:30,289 Yeah. 650 00:32:31,189 --> 00:32:36,499 Um, so just, you know, I'll just, I'll, and I think we'll end here 651 00:32:36,504 --> 00:32:40,099 with saying, talk to your vendors. 652 00:32:40,129 --> 00:32:40,459 Right? 653 00:32:40,459 --> 00:32:43,579 Talk to them and ask them, how is the data being backed up? 654 00:32:43,849 --> 00:32:48,889 How would you respond after, let's say a ransomware attack, somebody 655 00:32:48,889 --> 00:32:51,859 gains administrative control over your account and deletes all your data. 656 00:32:52,384 --> 00:32:53,854 How would you get that data back? 657 00:32:53,884 --> 00:32:55,714 That's that, that, that one question. 658 00:32:56,494 --> 00:33:01,714 And, you know, a, a rogue admin gains administrative control over 659 00:33:01,714 --> 00:33:03,604 my account and deletes the account. 660 00:33:03,874 --> 00:33:04,834 How do I get it back? 661 00:33:04,874 --> 00:33:05,164 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 662 00:33:06,034 --> 00:33:07,474 W. Curtis Preston: The answer to that question should 663 00:33:07,474 --> 00:33:09,484 determine what you do next. 664 00:33:09,604 --> 00:33:09,844 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yep. 665 00:33:11,914 --> 00:33:13,324 W. Curtis Preston: Any debate there? 666 00:33:13,534 --> 00:33:13,924 Prasanna Malaiyandi: No, 667 00:33:14,824 --> 00:33:15,214 W. Curtis Preston: Okay. 668 00:33:15,544 --> 00:33:17,884 Sometimes you, sometimes you like to argue with me. 669 00:33:18,049 --> 00:33:20,149 Prasanna Malaiyandi: I know I've gotten better. 670 00:33:20,149 --> 00:33:20,929 Have you noticed? 671 00:33:22,624 --> 00:33:24,094 W. Curtis Preston: At, at arguing, but yeah. 672 00:33:24,154 --> 00:33:26,194 Yeah, sometimes it's annoying. 673 00:33:27,514 --> 00:33:30,574 Just, just, just, you know, just admit I'm right with everything. 674 00:33:30,574 --> 00:33:33,694 And, uh, basically the same thing I tell my wife. 675 00:33:34,804 --> 00:33:35,494 Um, 676 00:33:35,539 --> 00:33:37,189 Prasanna Malaiyandi: our listeners want to hear, Curtis. 677 00:33:40,124 --> 00:33:43,414 W. Curtis Preston: I, you know, if you're out there and you think 678 00:33:43,414 --> 00:33:47,924 that, that I am off my rocker, uh, I quite possibly may be. 679 00:33:48,979 --> 00:33:54,229 But, um, you know, reach out to me and, um, we'll get you, we'll get 680 00:33:54,229 --> 00:33:56,629 you on the thing, but all I wanna say is I was right and I told you so. 681 00:33:59,929 --> 00:34:05,139 But anyway, well, thanks for, uh, thanks for hanging out again, Prasanna. 682 00:34:05,164 --> 00:34:07,234 Prasanna Malaiyandi: As always, and good luck with the car. 683 00:34:07,999 --> 00:34:08,509 W. Curtis Preston: Thanks. 684 00:34:08,569 --> 00:34:10,999 And uh, yeah, good luck getting rid of that thing. 685 00:34:11,309 --> 00:34:15,909 Um, and uh, again, thanks to our listeners, be sure to subscribe 686 00:34:15,909 --> 00:34:17,649 so that you can restore it all.