Can you explain exactly what it is you do?

Okay I work mostly with leaders in companies or founders.

they usually come to talk about business issues, but we always end up trying

to put their life together all in all.

Since I'm a huge believer in the work life integration or alignment, I don't believe

there is a, just a Work slash and life.

You just can't separate those and working with leaders.

I actually see how both areas influence one another.

But most of the leaders come to talk about business issues.

It's easier to build trust to start with something that's not so personal.

But we end up talking about how their personal life influences the business.

So once we put their personal life skills together at least a little bit.

It's a lot of work about building self awareness talking about emotions.

I also like to include a theory about three brains.

How our body actually, knows the information way up front than we realize.

And then we moved to topics that are more related to the work itself because

they now more space to talk about how to actually transfer this new knowledge

and awareness to their teams and how they can actually do the work that

they enjoy the most, that matters, that gives them meaning, and often we open

the whole new horizons towards What is going to be left when they leave, be it

being the company or literally what's the legacy they want to be building.

Okay.

So that seems pretty all encompass, all encompassing.

Yeah it's often the issues are so often personal, but either there isn't the

trust or there isn't the awareness until you start digging into them.

So when you talked about the three brains, do you mean the triumvirate

theory of, or are you talking about?

The head,

heart and gut.

Yeah.

The theory that's based on the idea that we have the same neurons

in our brain, heart, and gut.

Also the numbers are very different, we still process the informations.

Those parts of the body send us information.

So the theory is based on the fact that most people decide rationally,

but if you are able to incorporate the information with your heart or gut or

intuition is telling you, you are able to first make better aligned decisions.

And you are in peace with them.

You feel good about them.

And of course they are directed towards usually your values or what

matters, what gives you meaning.

Okay.

So how did you get into this?

Because you were a HR professional.

So what led you to that and why is it so important to you?

Actually I started way back before I get into the HR because I have

a master's in psychology and I know you studied psychology as well, so we probably

have something very, similar in common.

So I started my master's in psychology, but I always knew that I want to

work In the field of organizational psychology, more than clinical psychology.

So my focus has always been into how to apply psychology in the organizations.

And since being a psychologist in organization at that time was not

that, common, the way how to do it was to, work within an HR field.

And there I was always able to find areas where my background was useful.

I started working in talent development, I was part of the department that was taking

care of, assessment for high potentials, the trainees through within the company.

I was working in a HR marketing and building the HR brands or

the company brands at that time.

I ended up working as a HR business partner where.

I could actually easily incorporate the psychology into coaching people.

So I was either working with the employees who came for advice or usually a listening

ear, or I was working with managers on their day to day operational issues.

But of course, Through time, we built the relationship so that I

was able also to, be the sparring partner for whatever issues they had.

That when I actually realized that this is the core of what I enjoy.

Yeah, I was still giving people what they wanted.

Of course, because of the leaders or the managers in the corporations wanted

to get the stuff done, hire, fire solve the organizational changes, advise with

the employment law, but also I was able to connect with them and help them out

how to work with their teams through the self discovery, how they actually do it.

And of course, part of it was, advisory or mentoring.

So no matter the tool I use, that's what I enjoyed the most.

What was it about that, that you most enjoyed?

Those late night meetings when I was sitting with the

manager and he was explaining me the, how he's going to change the

structure of the whole department.

His assistant bringing the dinner because There was nowhere

else we could go and eat.

And then just talking about how is it going to influence the employees?

What he should do to consider the individual needs?

How he can support those that he values within the department?

These kind of discussions were, that I enjoyed the most.

There are plenty stories.

I remember when the managers really took time and effort to come up with

bespoke solutions that we were able to fit into the legal frame that

fitted to the needs of the employees.

And that was just amazing.

Yeah.

Okay.

I'm trying to, understand what was your interest.

For me, I would like that.

It's like an intellectual puzzle.

Or for me, I also look at people and I want to understand how people work.

And so all of these kinds of things help me.

So was it the outcome it had or the challenge of it, or,

I think it's the human part of it.

That was the most interesting.

There were a situation that there are two examples I like to usually talk

about one, but we were talking about an employee who came in, to me first

handing in the termination letter when he wanted to leave the company and

he didn't want to say the reasons.

But through talking, we he told me very private reasons which,

where that he actually fell in love with one of his colleagues.

And since he was not able to see any other way out.

He decided just to quit.

This is not the part of the problem, but I understand the reasons, but

I also understand that he needs to talk to his boss because maybe

those reasons could be solved.

So we made a mutual agreement.

He's going to talk to the boss.

And if he doesn't, that I have a two weeks period when I give

him the time to think it through.

And then I talk to the boss.

He eventually did talk to his superior.

I talked to him and we found a way to, send him for a foreign assignment

for a prolonged period of time.

It worked for the company.

It worked for the department because they needed an expert abroad, and

it worked for the person because he desperately wanted to solve a private

situation and he saw no other way.

Of course the solution is something that I enjoy, but the human part That

you are really trying to come up with a solution that fits the person and

the rest of the stakeholders, if you wish, was that was really interesting.

That's really at the core of what I try to do with unifying.

I think all of us have individual, and then we have to gather together

and find a way to make it all work.

I'm interested that you said it started with organizational psychology.

Why organizational psychology?

Because then has there been a path that you were on already

that led you to choose that?

Why organizational psychology?

Maybe I will just now contradict to what you were saying, because

I'm a very impatient person.

I want to see the results.

Okay.

Thank you.

That's why, because it's actually in organizations, although many changes

take time, the results you can see the results or you can see the progress much

faster, than in clinical psychology.

So that, that's the result orientation that brought me to the companies.

And of course, both of my parents worked in a corporation and there was

the influence from their side also.

So I could see the way how they worked and thrived in the organization.

So when you were a little girl and you were watching your parents

working in organizations, did you have a dream of what you wanted

to be and what you wanted to do?

That's a good question.

Although I was watching my parents and One of the reasons I joined the corporations

was actually the pattern I saw.

I never wanted to come to the same corporation.

There are three I would never ever.

I thought I will never ever work for the same company as my parents did.

I ended up working for the same company.

For more than 10 years.

Second, I will never ever, it was when I told myself that I will, I won't be a

stay at home mom because with my first child, I'll thought, and there is actually

a huge paternity leave in Czech Republic.

So the agreement with my employer was that I will come back to work after two years.

Which is quite normal in Czech Republic, or was back then, but I ended up

staying at home for almost eight.

With two of my kids and my husband being sent for a foreign assignment.

And third was I will never ever become an entrepreneur.

I felt safe and good in the corporation.

So here I am.

What's the next one?

I'm actually sometimes asking the question, where am I

saying to myself, I will never ever, because that may be the direction.

But at the moment, I don't know, I think that the entrepreneurship

is still a challenge big enough to stick with it right now.

Yeah.

Okay.

When you were going through school, and then you decided to do psychology.

What inspired you to that?

Was it the human element?

Did you have the plan to work in the, in corporations?

I didn't know if there was a, that much of a plan.

When you are 15, 18, I don't know if the idea of what you want to do is that clear.

I think I was inclined always to work with people.

As you said, I like to ask questions and I like to listen to what people

are saying and usually, when I get something on my mind, I go for it.

So I made the decision and then I just went for it.

Although it took me three attempts and three years to

actually enter the university.

Okay.

It was difficult to get into.

They say it's difficult to get into and then it's.

It's easier to thrive once you enter the university or the psychology department.

Okay.

You say that you've always liked to ask questions.

Were you like that at school?

I don't know.

I was loud, that's what I remember, I was loud.

My voice is just too loud.

So I was, everyone heard when I was talking.

So I guess that was part of asking the questions because I was not afraid.

Okay.

So that's something that underpins you actually.

There's a quiet confidence, because you say I'm not afraid, but there's a quiet

confidence that you don't seem afraid.

You seem afraid willing to ask the difficult questions.

You seem willing to make the jumps.

So there seems to be a confidence that you have.

I have no idea if that's the question or just a statement.

It's a statement.

It's just an observation, that's all.

I like to try new things.

And, I believe that the confidence comes just afterwards.

Yeah.

Often people are waiting for confidence before they try and you can't, you

have to fail and you have to have the confidence and it's like anxiety.

I think you have to do the thing to move past it.

Otherwise you'll always be anxious about it.

Yeah.

You won't know until you try it.

How did that move into coaching?

It took me actually many years to move into the coaching.

I had the idea of becoming an internal coach first.

So I actually went through my first certification when I was still

working for the corporation, but then I took eight years, break

and honestly, I totally forgot.

about the whole idea and plan.

I was no longer in the corporation.

And then I was an expat wife for quite a long time.

I enjoyed the experience.

I believe I made the most out of living abroad that I could, but for a portion

of time, I struggled with the meaning.

Taking care of the kids, but although I was coming up with different programs or

how to fill up my time, it was not enough.

There was no purpose behind it.

It sounds silly, but it was mostly enjoying myself, but

it was still not enough.

So I struggled at the time.

There is actually a funny story.

It's part of it.

My husband used to work with a coach.

And one night my husband comes home and asks me a question.

I was talking to my coach today and he asked me, what about your wife?

How is she doing?

You've been living abroad for quite a time.

The coach said, from my experience the wives either go crazy and get divorced

or they have to start doing something.

So where is your wife at?

My husband came home wondering, because he said, I never asked

the question, so where are you?

So what's the possibility?

I actually said, and admitted to him for the first time that I'm struggling

with the purpose and I started working with the coach and that led me to

the idea that if I enjoy working with people, that I enjoy asking questions

and listening to people, that there is actually a path that I had in my mind

many years back, but never fulfilled.

But still there was this idea, okay, but will you do it in a corporation?

Will you come back to the corporation and become an

individual coach and internal coach?

Then in the end, I told myself If there is a time in life where I can try

something different, it was that time.

So I terminated my connection to the corporation I used

to work with and went solo.

And of course, part of that was that I I went through another certification

just to refresh the coaching process.

Yeah.

It sounds like you already had a lot of the skills.

Did the coaching training help or did you find that most of

it you'd already picked up?

I think that there are two main things.

One is through the training, you always build your own awareness.

So I would say I refreshed what I knew on a conscious level, but sometimes you

really have to work on your subconscious.

For instance, when you really are listening, it's not

just about person is saying.

It's also shutting up your own ideas and, questions that you want to ask, but

may not fit what the person is saying.

Also you have to listen more deeply on a level of what the person is

just saying, but how the energy of what the person is saying is changing

or what was really interesting.

Something I didn't work with in the corporation is work with metaphors

and how they carry the meaning, which comes back more to my background

of psychology, but of course I didn't use it in the corporation.

So that's something I had to learn or refresh.

And then there is a process and the big part of the coaching

is you trust the process.

So that's also something that I had to relearn again, to get the confidence, to

trust the process, that I will lead the client to the outcome he is looking for.

When you're new doing something like that, you feel a lot of pressure.

And I think it's a bit like leaders feel a pressure to impress.

And later you realize it's less about you and to use a metaphor, it's like when

we first learn to drive, we oversteer.

Then you learn it doesn't take as much.

So when you started coaching this, usually most of us start out and we

don't really know who we're working with.

And the whole coach thing is everyone needs a coach and

you can be a coach to anyone.

So what was your early steps like, and how did you then narrow down to leaders?

Actually, that's the thing I always wanted the

leaders that was a given.

I want to work and I work with people who inspire me first.

And that's a thing that I need in my life inspiration.

So the choice was given.

And I know that people who are in leadership positions and who

are inspiring, they struggle.

I've seen it firsthand.

When I was working in the corporation, they just don't know yet what I usually

see up front, that there is more that they can achieve or trust themselves.

There is a bigger path they can walk.

The more that you see, that they don't see yet, what is that?

I believe it's part of deep listening.

It's not about what they say.

Sometimes of course, there are hints in the conversations,

but it's more how they show up.

What metaphors they use.

And how they actually react.

How deeply they are able to think and feel about the issues

they bring to the session.

Okay.

I often think like a lot of old stories are very true.

I think of the Wizard of Oz, they all go on the yellow brick road and they all

think that they're missing something and the thing that they think that they're

missing is often the thing that they find.

Yeah.

That they always had.

Yeah.

So I see that journey.

Is it them overcoming their fears?

Is it them finding things that they didn't think they knew?

Or can you see any other patterns?

I believe there is a pattern of trust.

Once you are a leader, and I believe most of the people I work with have

always been leaders, just different positions, or no matter the role, you

always stand out of the crowd and at certain point or at certain situation,

you feel alone because of the differences.

The higher the position, or the bigger your ambitions are, the feeling of

loneliness can grow and then you start to lose trust in people because

you are trying to protect yourself.

Then it's easy to even starting to trust yourself because you don't

have the feedback that we as humans need through the social interactions.

So I believe that part of the journey is that I, as a coach, trust them first,

so they are able to start trust themself and the others as well on the journey.

So a lot of times that you've talked about trust.

Don't you

see it in the companies or don't you see it in the

relationships that you work with?

Yeah trust is huge.

What I haven't heard before is someone talk about the trust as much as you.

So it's coming through, as something core to you, that sense of trust.

I see it.

And I know it's needed.

But I talk about it more as a mechanistic thing, probably.

In what way?

In that trust is something we need.

We need to trust ourselves and we need to trust others.

So I suppose for me, it's one of those things that's largely unconscious,

that people don't recognize that's the currency that they're looking for.

I think all of life comes down to a few core currencies.

And everything anyone does is for a handful of reasons.

It's for trust, it's for love, it's for respect, it's for

recognition, it's for control.

One of these things.

So for me, there are all of these things into play.

And so whenever anyone acts, I'm looking at what are they trying to do?

But I've rarely spoken to people who are as conscious and explicitly saying it.

Whereas normally trust is something people don't even aren't aware

of, or they don't speak of.

So for me relationships are the vehicle of interactions.

They're the sum of all our interactions, and the measure and the purpose of a

relationship is to build that trust.

But I don't explicitly talk about that trust because it's something

that most people are unaware of.

It's not the thing that they're looking for.

I also deliver trainings on leadership skills.

I was recently delivering a workshop and we talked about trust as a part of

building relationship and networks and how to leverage networks within the company.

We came to discuss the trust equation, where most people, as you said it

mechanistically are able to identify if they believe that the person is competent.

That's what they are able to identify.

They are able to identify if they feel safe when the person is talking to

them, and they also are able to identify if they believe that what the person

is saying is actually going to do.

There is a promise behind his word.

But a part of the trust equation, and a major one, most people are not consciously

aware, but when we talk about it, they become aware of it, is if the person with

whom we are talking is self oriented only and doing things only for his own benefit.

Or if he's taking in consideration the other person as well, because

this element actually can ruin the whole other three parts.

And that's something that at least when I was discussing it with the leaders,

they said, we never realized it.

It's a major part of trust.

Yeah, definitely.

So you had integrity, competence, and basically care that's the kind

of thing that we get at a gut level, but not necessarily an awareness

level when you talked about the, the heart the gut and the mind.

Yeah, exactly.

We feel there is something wrong or we know that we can trust the

person, but we are not aware of what.

So first the awareness and when you mentioned that the three brains, we

can actually locate it in the body, but even within the trust equation

we can identify in the individual elements to bring it to awareness.

In coaching.

I'm sure you've gone through your values.

What are the values that drive what you do?

They say you better show it than say it so if I would ask you first

What how do I show up and then I will tell you if those are the values or not.

So I'm gonna go with trust because That is something that comes through.

Obviously we can have the same value, but we express it differently.

There's something about being together.

So whether it's connection or togetherness there's something about the way that

you talk about organizations it's the collective, but there's meaning to

so purpose I'm going to put, there's something about being proactive, so I, I

would say proactive, it might not be the right word, but it's that kind of thing.

And communication.

And I would put something along the lines of integrity and maybe loyalty.

Okay, now you can

tell me.

Okay, you have mentioned much more.

I usually talk about my three most important ones, but,

thank you for the assessment.

It means a lot.

I usually talk about curiosity courage and connection.

These are my most important values.

Of course, there are many more.

But these are usually ones I try to steer my decisions.

The three C's.

And I only got one of them.

You can find those in all the words you said or

at least I can see it there.

Okay.

So trust is one of the big issues in the transformations you work with.

What are maybe some of the others?

I believe that the trust is the foundation.

What might be the others?

I believe it's a bias towards action.

Most people I work with are not afraid to, act and then take

learnings from what they did.

What else?

I believe that a big part is a deep need for meaning and that all

their action are actually heading towards the meaning and the purpose.

Since I mostly work with senior leaders, they often come to the point.

I'd like to talk about the midlife, but not everyone actually likes the word.

What I noticed, I have no issue with the age but, they entered the phase

when whatever purpose or actions they have worked for them until now are

no longer enough, or not serving the purpose, or they no longer make sense.

So that's something, it has always been there, but they lost it.

So part of the coaching is that we try to rediscover it.

I'm not sure if you're familiar, but David Brooks has written a book on that.

He calls it the second mountain.

So I have,

I know the book, I actually have it in my Kind

of, but I haven't read it yet.

Yeah, I know.

It's

basically about that.

You might find it interesting.

Okay.

So now we see what the transformation is.

I'm just wondering what are the problems that a leader is facing

at the point of working with you?

And what does it look like afterwards?

If I will move from the personal, maybe area and then look at the

corporative or maybe the organizational area a little bit more than these are

usually issues of how to work with your own time and energy within the

company or within your work life.

How do you set boundaries with your colleagues.

We often talk about how do you get feedback and delegate activities.

That's what we talk about a lot.

Actually we often talk about how to get things done on the daily basis, how to

prioritize, how to express and communicate what I really want as a leader.

In the end when you are asking about what's the outcome, the leaders are able

to express with ease what they really want from employees, they are able to give them

feedback that's not hurtful, but still expresses the facts and expectations.

And they are able to prioritize their own schedule, their own needs.

In a sense, most of the leaders I work with need more time and space

for strategy or visions, but they are not able to find it themselves.

So that's what we create together, which also means you have to trust your team

more and delegate more stuff or use coaching principles to lead them to

solutions, not to give them answers.

So that's also a part of the results.

And with that, yes, as I mentioned, there are actually few of my

coaching clients who say, one of my goals is to have an empty schedule.

Of course it doesn't mean that they will have nothing on

their agenda, but that means.

I want to really do stuff I want to do, not what others want me to do.

Doing the important rather than the urgent.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

So what I see then is basically a lot of leaders reach their limits of

what they're able to do, which shows up in the organizational problems.

And in the process of working you help them develop more stable

secure foundations so that the same problems they're able to deal with

much more elegantly and so they're able to reach the next level.

It's like people reach the end of their level of their operating system.

You help them to get up ready to reach a different type of challenge.

There is the stairs towards mastery.

So yes, we are just going one stair or one step at a time.

I have a deep trust and believe that most of the leaders I would

love to say in general, but at least those that I work with, there are

many leaders who are very capable.

They know how to do stuff.

And so it's not about the how, as you said, it's to go

one step farther and grow.

Because they have all the answers.

So it's not about me telling them how to run the company.

They know it.

They just don't have the space, energy, time, the skills.

Sometimes of course, it's about the communicational skills that they

just need to develop on a new level.

I see three journeys relationships, leadership, and public speaking.

Each of them we step into something and there's no way that you can prepare.

But through your challenges, you'll grow, and it's your openness really

to being able to take on feedback and change and adapt who you are around it.

Say a leader is starting out, and they haven't yet reached that level, what

principles or tips or advice would you give them, for their journey?

Say someone that wants to really develop and be the best leader they

can for some meaningful purpose.

From your experience of seeing other leaders, would you say are

the challenges or the, skills or principles that they need to take on?

I would probably say, you need to know where you are going.

And I will just explain what I mean by that.

We often learn and we are taught that it means you need to know your goal and then

you will find ways how to reach the goal.

But what I mean by that is something that Stephen Covey said, start

with the end in mind, in a sense.

Know who you want to be as a person and then try to fit the

person in the shoes of the role.

Because when I talk with leaders, They all want to know, and if I ask them, okay,

what kind of a leader do you want to be, or who is a go to, inspiration for you?

They actually are all quite able to say what it means.

But when we go deeper, and I ask them, okay, and how does

it show up in daily life?

It takes a bit of a time to define it.

Again, most people know it, but they never made the step to look at the behavior.

So if I would give an advice, it would be start with the end in mind, knowing who

do you want to be as a person in the role?

And what does it mean in your behavior?

How are you going to show up daily?

That is something that you can actually learn, practice, make mistakes and repeat.

I suppose when I think about that in my experience and observation of

people there's a certain age where you have that awareness because like the

20s are about trying things out and until you've tried them out, your, you

don't really know who you want to be.

But that's deep and something that not a lot of people talk about as much,

but in the end a lot of leaders will try to emulate someone and they'll try

to emulate someone who has a different set of skills and personality to them.

And then they'll feel like a second best.

There is nothing wrong about take it as an inspiration.

But you can't emulate.

You will always be the second best.

And most often people won't trust you that it's you.

So I'm often telling, people when I teach them those things during the training.

Part of your personality is something that it may not be perfect.

You may be a boss who comes every morning and takes him

an hour to get into the mood.

And that's okay.

You don't have to smile at everyone Monday morning if it's

that, if that's not your thing.

It's just good to tell others.

Hey guys, I need an hour to adapt to the work rhythm again.

And through time, people just learn you are the kind of a boss.

If you leave him alone for the first hour every morning, he's marvelous.

That's okay.

Which all comes down to accepting yourself.

And then, in order to accept, you need to trust yourself.

And also tell others, this is me.

Yes, I'm an early bird.

Sorry, guys.

I come to office at five, but that doesn't mean you also have to show up.

I'd rather if you leave me alone.

Okay.

Now as someone who is great at asking questions, I'm just going to ask one more

question is what should I have asked that you would have asked that I've missed?

Oh, that's a good question.

You could have, I don't know if you could have asked, there is a

thing that I love to talk about, but, I'm a passionate singer.

I sing in a car only, so that's, that, that's my personal singer part.

Okay.

Ah, okay.

The

song I love to, to sing is.

Either John Bonjovi, it's my life and I know it's old school and it

is, I don't know, but it perfectly describes yeah, I wanna do it my way.

It's my life.

I can trust myself and the others, and we only have one life, or at

least what I know of or remember, of.

So w why do you only, sing in the car?

I don't think I actually I thought.

And I think I used to have a voice good enough for singing in public.

I think it deteriorates it and I never practice it I never

learned how to properly sing.

So I don't actually think it's a very good experience listening to

me singing, but I still love it.

So is that an issue of trust?

Yes, of course.

Okay, that's a perfect way to, to wrap up.

It's.

It's interesting that the very thing that we talk most about to others

is the thing, is very, there's a, an example of our, of it in ourselves.

Of course, we are the, our very first clients, right?

Okay.

Thank you for your time.

It's been fascinating to, to learn more about you.

It's lovely

talking to you.

Thank you.