Hello everyone.
Welcome to this week's Scaling Expertise,
where we talk to experts who have scaled
their expertise and also have some tips
about how you can scale your expertise.
I'm very excited for my guest this week.
The Jill James, I love that.
Who is a business consultant who helps
her, founders go from founder to CEO.
So welcome Jill, so much.
Thank you, Erin.
Thanks for inviting me.
I'm very excited to have you here today.
you talk about is so applicable to
this audience, but before we dive
in, would you introduce yourself?
Sure.
So I'm Jill James, as you mentioned,
my company is called the Jill
James, not gonna get lost there.
so my focus is kinda in three areas.
I'm a business manager, I'm
an operator, and I also have a
background in wealth management.
so that makes it a little bit unique
in that, I mostly work with self-funded
people and, whole different set
of, Tools that we have when you
are not having venture investors.
So that's really, an area that I've
chosen to focus in to help people who
wanna self-fund their businesses and
grow them to the right size for them.
So I think our conversation today is
gonna be very applicable to your audience.
Absolutely it is.
And I'm gonna jump right in with what
you mentioned there about your target
audience, about them being founders
that aren't gonna take VC funds.
And we're gonna talk about scaling,
we're gonna talk about intellectual
property, but I'd like to just start
with how the misperception generally.
That when we talk about scaling,
we're talking about VC funding
and we're talking about software.
We're talking about these things
that we read about in magazines
as opposed to the things that
we do every day in our business.
Have you found that kind of
general misperception when
you're talking to people?
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
in my working background, I come
from investment banking, wealth
management, and venture backed startups.
Mm-hmm.
And you can see I am not in that world.
Right.
So it's.
What can we take from that world?
But if we follow that playbook, and
that is a lot of what you see in
the press, that is a lot of what you
see on social media is the get big
fast playbook or the assumption that
there is unlimited capital or you've
just been handed a chunk of money.
And you can go try some stuff out
and figure out how it works before
you have to sell anything to anybody.
that isn't the real world
for 98% of businesses.
Mm-hmm.
So, you know, as much as we look
at, we hear about these venture
capital businesses and it's sexy
to say, oh, they got 1.2 million
in funding, or they got mm-hmm.
You know, 50 million in
funding, whatever it is.
sometimes that's just to figure
out what are we gonna sell?
Yes.
And
that isn't the reality for 98% of us.
And I think in particular, if you are.
a non-traditional founder, or you
didn't go to a certain set of 10
or 12 schools where you met the
people who are gonna fund you.
Mm-hmm.
you are going to start your business with
money that you earn by selling things, and
then you're gonna earn the right to borrow
money from other people or from banks
mm-hmm.
To accelerate the growth of your business.
It is a very different playbook and I
think, what I am seeing is more people
are evolving to, I want to keep control.
Of how this business grows and I wanna
do it at a pace that's right for me.
Mm-hmm.
And not what somebody else dictates.
And so when you choose that path to
be self-funded, we have to be very
intentional, especially from about.
250 to $500,000 up to about 5 million.
we have to be extremely intentional
in how we step through that time
to help you grow, without falling
into some of the traps that are
gonna start to come into your world.
Around seven figures, where lots of
people start to say, oh, I can help you.
Now you made it to seven figures.
You're in the big leagues.
Well, let's get you on
this different playbook.
the foundation that it takes to build
a self-funded business and to set a
playbook for yourself is really what we
work on with founders in my business.
Thank you for that.
Thank you.
So having set that framework,
let's go back a little bit.
You okay.
Mentioned you came
from, the venture world.
How did you make that transition
to where you are today working
with this population of clients?
Yes.
That is a good question.
So for a long time, being in, I think
I worked at seven different venture
backed startups over my career,
and been through lots of exits.
And so I was always looking
for what is that big idea?
what is the idea that
would get me venture?
Mm-hmm.
And
I had a lot of other ideas.
That I didn't follow because they
would not have qualified for venture
and they were probably all really
legitimately good businesses where
I would've made a lot of money.
Mm-hmm.
But I did not understand
how that worked yet.
I understood the get big fast model.
Right.
That was business school.
That was all the businesses I worked in.
That was the goal.
So when it finally came down
to it, I ended up leaving.
I was the COO of a venture
backed tech startup.
And I was seven months pregnant there
was a conversation about maternity
leave and it did not go well.
And so it was about
no
leave.
Maybe it was, it was about no leave.
It was about no leave.
So I waddled my little self out of there.
I took a minute to get organized and
I had had a number of people, I had
partnered with more, Founders who
had come from a place of knowing how
to sell, having a good idea about, a
community or a business that they could,
establish, but no operational expertise
in how to set up and run a business.
So I had, self-funded founders who had
seen me do that, and they had left the
door open of, if you ever wanna do this.
Fractionally or maybe would take
a side job where you're not all
consumed with building somebody
else's business, I would hire you.
So I called a couple of those people
and I said, this is the situation,
and I'm gonna be having a baby.
But you know, until then.
We can start something and
then we can pick it up again.
And they said, any help you could
give me, I would just so appreciate
having someone look over my shoulder.
Help me out with this,
and whatever we can do.
And I really appreciated that
because the first couple of years
in my business I've worked very
flexibly, more like a fractional COO.
Mm-hmm.
I think this is.
Part of the process of especially
an expertise business, is you're
gonna try out a bunch of stuff.
I tried to work with
different kinds of people.
I worked on an hourly basis.
You know, I just kind of
figured out like, what is this?
What are people asking me for?
You know, that was almost my investment
in finding my product market fit.
in the evolution of that, about two
years in, I saw an opportunity with
lots of women who needed flexibility.
Who are establishing businesses because
of that often around caregiving.
And so I redesigned what I was doing
to make it a little bit more package
driven, knowing those women were probably
not going to get venture just given
the numbers and the kinds of businesses
they were establishing moved more in
a direction around, how do I work with
self-funded founders and what does that
mean and what's my unique expertise?
That I can bring to that area.
Like what have I learned and
the people around me, how can
they help these people as well?
so that was really the evolution.
This was 10 years ago, right?
Mm-hmm.
My son is nine and a half.
It was almost this time, 10 years
ago that this conversation happened.
Mm-hmm.
10 years later, I have a very defined,
this is who we are, this is what
we do, this is who we're for, and
these are the reasons that we do it.
All of that is very well developed at
this point, but I went through a phase
of experimentation initially where I
just got paid to show up and mm-hmm.
Do my old job as you know, my business.
And that's a perfectly
legitimate way to start.
Absolutely.
Thank you for sharing that
because so many of us, you know,
there's so much information now.
Yeah.
And it is really easy to get
caught up in all the different, way
offers and ladders and all these.
Things, and I have
absolutely suffered from it.
I'm, post corporate who mm-hmm.
now works with a different population and
it has taken, it is, I'm still evolving.
Frankly, I'm, I'm not 10 years out
working with this group of people.
learning who your best client
is, the best way to help them.
Our expertise can be used in lots
of different ways, but you know,
the more we work with people,
the more we hear their pains.
The more we start to speak their
language, the more it makes sense.
Like we can start to drill down on
the best way to help them, and that
you're probably not gonna just.
Come straight out of, this corporate
for most of us, and go straight
into the final product, so to speak.
So, yeah.
Yeah, I think that's a great point that,
there is going to be an evolution in
your entrepreneurial journey even if
you're a product-based business mm-hmm.
The first idea that you have.
If you're very lucky, it
will be the successful one.
Mm-hmm.
But in most cases, there's a pivot,
there's some amount of learning,
there's a change in the market.
And so we have to continue to look
for the opportunity and move toward
it as we learn more about, you know,
ourselves and what our capabilities
are and, who wants to work with us.
Now when you think, of course,
this is a scaling expertise Yes.
Uh, podcast.
So, a lot of people have a very narrow
definition of scaling as being mm-hmm.
You know, selling books or courses
or software, things like that.
But what does scaling mean
to you and your clients?
Yes.
So scaling in the self-funded
world is a very intentional act.
Mm-hmm.
It's about milestones and it's
about knowing what are those
points of investment and the
next place we're going to land.
So scaling often as you start
as a self-funded business owner,
there's the problem of where is
the money gonna come from, right?
So we need to be intentional of
looking at where are we going next?
How much money is it gonna take?
What are we gonna have to sell?
who else do we need on the staff?
What other resources do we need?
And sometimes that means there's gonna
be a dip where we need to move forward
and we don't have the revenue yet.
Mm-hmm.
So, where are we gonna get that capital?
Is it, from a bank loan?
Is it from a line of credit?
Is it a seven a loan?
Learning that world of places that you
can borrow for growth, that you know
you can pay back because you're moving
through a point in time and not stuck
in, I don't know how to get out of this.
Let me borrow some money.
it's meant to accelerate you.
So I think that is, the thinking
on scaling is not how fast
can we get, how big, but.
What's the next iteration of
this business where we can be
profitable at this size and deliver?
Mm-hmm.
And how long is that gonna take?
How quickly are we
gonna move through this?
Because what I see is when you
don't know what that next point
of profitability is going to be.
You get stuck in a trough.
Mm-hmm.
Where
you are having to make extra
investments in operating expenses in
people that you can't pay for yet.
And you meant to move through that
in three to six months, and all of a
sudden it becomes two years and the
debt becomes unsustainable, right?
Mm-hmm.
And then you get really stuck.
Mm-hmm.
So you have to have a plan for
what is the next milestone.
What do we need to do to get there
what's gonna be the uncomfortable stuff
that we have to do in the meantime?
Mm-hmm.
Um, to get us through this phase.
then you can be there and say, I like this
size of business and this is great for me.
I love it here.
Or you can be like.
That wasn't so hard.
I think I wanna go for the next one,
and then we need to look ahead and
say, not just based on the revenue
number that you wanna be at, but what
is the right size of your business at
the next iteration where we hire the
people, we have the profitability, you
get paid what you wanna get paid, you
keep the culture that you wanna keep.
What's that next point?
Okay, let's move toward that.
What's, how long is this
next phase gonna take?
But I think it's the
stepping stone approach.
Making sure we're just moving
through an investment phase to a next
point of sustainable profitability.
That's the way that we scale
a self-funded business.
You know, I think that even with the
expert, certainly one who's relatively
new in their business and they're not
even thinking in terms of profitability,
they're thinking in terms of matching
their old salary and I'll say, you know.
When I first started, being self-employed,
I was not thinking about profitability.
It was literally like, how much
do I need to make to pay my bills?
It was not about, you know,
what does it really cost to me
to generate this much revenue?
and so there is a like kind of a,
a foundational misunderstanding
or lack of understanding, I think
for some, experts about just that,
about profits as opposed to just.
Revenue.
So Yeah.
Yeah, I think that's a great point.
There is definitely a transitional moment
when you're that expert solopreneur.
Mm-hmm.
To moving into, I'm going to
run a scaled business now.
Mm-hmm.
And other humans are involved, whether
they are employees or contractors or
other businesses that you work with.
How do I go from how I do it myself?
Self.
Mm-hmm.
And to take most of the money
and put it in my bank account.
Right.
And just be tax smart about that.
Right.
And how do I set things up so other
people can replicate what I do mm-hmm.
At this level of quality
that I wanna sustain.
Mm-hmm.
Because people still need to,
you know, still mostly me, right?
And so how do I bring in the right people
and then how much is that gonna cost?
I think that that is a point where.
We really have to think
through what you charge.
Mm-hmm.
And how many clients you need, or
how many sales you need, and what
that next investment is gonna be.
Because bringing on people is a big leap.
It is expensive.
Yes.
Right.
They come with a lot of rules.
I'm in California.
Ah, yes, you had one part-time employee,
you better have a retirement plan.
You better be thinking about
all of your compliance, right?
that is that one human being
for more than 10 hours a week.
We have to do that.
So, you know, there are other
places where it's not that, really
do have all of these other layers
of operating and administrative
responsibility once you start to scale.
Mm-hmm.
And do you want your expertise to
become, I wanna get really good at.
operating a business.
Mm-hmm.
Or I wanna get really good at
going and finding customers
and telling them my story
mm-hmm.
And aiming my business in that direction.
And I think that's one of the
challenges of people get really
bogged down at that next phase of.
I don't know how to do any of this stuff.
Mm-hmm.
And it's really hard, and I keep
getting letters and they're scary
and I don't wanna like, and now I'm
spending time on, on hold, trying to
figure out what's going on and like,
who do I need to solve this problem?
the sales stop, you stop selling, you
stop focusing forward and you stop
innovating and you stop trying stuff.
that is one of the big pitfalls
of going from a single expert.
Into a scaled business setting mm-hmm.
Is, we rise to the place where the
administrative stuff overwhelms us.
Yes.
And then who do you get
to help you with that?
Mm-hmm.
Right?
How do you get good at that a lot
faster.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Yeah.
I'm a huge, Proponent of division
of labor, there's something I
don't even wanna get good at.
Yes.
Like for me to go from, the, uh, what
is it, the zone of genius, go, yes.
Not even adequate to decent would be
like, that gap is, for some things
is huge for me versus going from
good to great, you know, which is
where I'm trying to spend my time.
So you mentioned, having a
scalable, sustainable business.
And from my perspective, you
can't do that without developing
some intellectual property.
Not necessarily software books or courses,
but you know, making sure we're capturing
our expertise putting it in a form that
it can be replicated by other people.
You know, as founders, we are the most
expensive resource in our business,
so how do we have less expensive
resources deliver some or all of that.
Value to our clients.
And so I get too many questions
about like, I'm worried about people
stealing my intellectual property and.
one of the things that you do
is you have a ask me anything.
Mm-hmm.
Where you let people come and you
give away your, expertise for free.
some people and I do a lot of that
as well, and people are like, why you
give so much away, but where do you see
the benefit of sharing your expertise?
well, most of the things that I know
you will eventually learn, right?
Mm-hmm.
I was a proud business auntie earlier this
year as one of my clients got on stage, in
front of a group of other women and said
things that I know I said to her, mm-hmm.
She said them to these,
bigger group of women.
And I was just like, yes.
Pass on that message.
Mm-hmm.
We all can get better at this.
Mm-hmm.
So I think, I come from a place
where innovation is the ip.
Creating an organization that will be
curious and continue to learn, continue
to try new things continue to really
move ahead to new opportunities and
being smart about what we need to
protect in that and what is protectable,
Because innovation in and
of itself is a discipline.
Mm-hmm.
Is
not protectable.
Right.
The product of your innovation
might be protectable.
The question is like, is it relevant
for a long time, if it takes
several years to get a trademark,
or it takes, utility patent, right?
Mm-hmm.
Is that.
A useful investment for you?
Is that something that's the
product of your innovation mm-hmm.
That you need for a long time?
And
so a lot of what we're doing in
our intellectual property is really
that special sauce of how do we
make our business ours, What are
the operating procedures we follow?
Mm-hmm.
How do we think about who
we bring onto our team?
Other people can't replicate that.
Mm-hmm.
And I think also that
curiosity, did it move forward?
Most organizations are not that.
Mm-hmm.
So you know that aspect of
we will continue to evolve.
Versus, you know, often people
with intellectual property think,
I've got my thing now I'm gonna
milk it for the next 75 years.
And that might be true as you capture some
of these things, put copyright on them.
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
There are things that, you know, might
live well beyond you where your heirs
can continue to get money from them.
Mm-hmm.
And understanding what those
things are are really important.
and where those fall in.
But I think sometimes people get.
Too attached to, I protected this
thing so that nobody else can use it.
And it's really the defense of that,
that they haven't thought through.
Mm-hmm.
Like, do you wanna become an organization?
That is defending a copyright
or defending a trademark.
Mm-hmm.
Or do you wanna be this
thing in the world?
Mm-hmm.
so I think that's the kind
of the balance of you have to
understand what intellectual
property will and won't do for you.
Mm-hmm.
I think one of the things that I do with
my clients is we look at insurances.
if intellectual property
is important is mm-hmm.
How do we form a legal
defense fund mm-hmm.
Using
insurance.
That
gives us the right to say, not only are
we gonna write that cease and desist, but
when you think you've, you know, scared us
with a big lawyer, we have a bigger lawyer
and we're gonna write a nastier letter.
' cause we have a legal defense
fund that you didn't know we had.
I went through this with a client
a few years ago where, you know,
there's like a major manufacturer
that thought they would scare her off.
Mm-hmm.
And she.
It was like, I have insurance for this.
Mm-hmm.
I'm getting a good lawyer.
Right.
And went ahead and like, wrote
back the letter and they were
like, oh, oh, she's for real.
Right.
So I think there are things like that not
just the intellectual property, but the
defense of intellectual property mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Is a thing as small business owners, that
there are tools that we can use mm-hmm.
To make us run with
against bigger companies.
And I think that's a big thing
to think about if you are
gonna be an IP driven business.
Yeah.
I love that, and I will, people
probably forget this about me, but
the, my brand name Think Beyond
IP was about kind of not just.
copyrights, trademark patents, it was
about all kind of intellectual capitals
I called it, you know, which it is
called, but which nobody wanted to hear
me talk about, which is yeah, what my
evolution was like, okay, nobody really
wants to talk about intellectual capital.
but it's exactly, of course, I didn't
put it the way you put it, but about.
Culture, innovation, all those things.
Insurance, there's a whole, ecosystem
of how we create a business that,
is differentiated, that people wanna
work in, that clients wanna work with.
It's not just about, what is
filed in a copyright office.
and those things are all.
Absolutely.
So important.
So thank you for putting it that way.
I feel I feel better about,
I'm so glad to hear that.
I feel so much better.
So tell me how, your clients
know, Hey, I need to call Jill.
Like, what's happening
in their businesses?
Yeah.
Yes, yes.
so often with my clients, like you
ask me about like why I do so much
stuff for free and I consider like
I want to be Mackenzie Scott level.
Giving Right.
And not keeping what I have, right?
Mm-hmm.
And I want lots of
people to be successful.
So my business model, what I've
settled on for my own growth
is more of a freemium model.
Mm-hmm.
Lots of people are on my newsletter.
Lots of people come to my free stuff.
We work with 10 or 12 clients a year.
And a lot of those clients
stay on for multiple years.
So really, when it comes to
new clients, we're taking on
four to six new clients a year.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
Until
they phase through and hire,
permanent people mm-hmm.
if they get that big to take these
on permanent jobs, all of mm-hmm.
You know, four or five, six
things we're doing for that.
Mm-hmm.
So I think the point that people end up
calling me is they either say, Hey, I've
been running this business for a while.
I have an idea of like how to take it
to the next level, but I need someone to
help me think through what is that right?
Like what are my options?
How could I do it And then how do
I stay true to me while I do that?
What are the centering principles that
matter that we're building this business
around, what are the forms the business
could take that don't trade off who I am?
What matters to me getting paid, right?
Because none of us can go to zero.
Mm-hmm.
We gotta get paid while
we build these things.
And when I get to the other
side, is it still a business?
I'm gonna be happy running.
is it still a thing?
Does it become somebody else's
thing or is it my thing?
And so I think when you're having
thoughts like that's the moment to
call me as a thought partner and
a strategist of what could it be?
Right.
Let's talk about what it could be.
and that's like kind of bringing in
the structures and, you know, different
capital models and things like that.
And that's where I draw a
lot on my venture background.
Mm-hmm.
And also what I know about
money management of like, how
would we make that happen?
The other piece that
people call me for is.
All I'm doing now is admin, Like I
really wanna get back to, focusing
on the, the growth of my business,
selling things, talking to customers,
running my team, and I'm so bogged down
in all this other stuff and I don't
even know the right questions to ask.
And also.
I know I'm getting these giant tax bills.
I know they're more, I
know I could be smarter.
I know I could give more
benefits to my people.
I tend to work with very generous founders
who do more than the law requires, right?
Mm-hmm.
They wanna share all the
rising tide lifts, all boats.
That's the attitude.
Mm-hmm.
So, how could I do that?
What's good for me and
what's good for them?
So, you know, that's very often of
how do we fix the running it part of
the business so that you are doing
the running it part that you want.
And we take all that stuff that, you
know, when you say something like,
Hey, I'd like to implement this in the
business and I just see 11 to 15 things
we're gonna need to do to do that.
Right?
You don't have to go through the trial
and error of what are those things.
We make a checklist, we step through them,
we prioritize them, and we might, you
know, in many cases, just do them for you.
So I think that part is like an
operating partner, an experienced
operator in so many different
areas of running, small business.
And when I say small, like.
You know, that's up to
like $15 million, right?
I'm just talking about a hundred
thousand dollars businesses here.
There's a wide range of small business.
Mm-hmm.
But I think that's, the point of when
the operating of the business has
gotten overwhelming for you, but it's
still cost prohibitive to bring in a
really experienced operating partner.
That's the other time to call me.
That's fantastic.
So speaking of how you work with
your clients, is there anything
new and exciting coming up in your
business that you'd like to share?
Yes.
I'm really investing in my newsletter
and my community around that.
something that's free.
We have lots of resources, I don't want
anyone to fail in starting a business
because they didn't file a piece of paper.
Or they didn't know they
had a deadline mm-hmm.
Or they got behind on their taxes.
Right.
All of those things that you just don't
know when you first start a business.
Mm-hmm.
So, you know, the newsletter and
the community around that, are free
and it's, you know, just something
that I want as many people as
possible to get to the place where
they could be become my clients.
Right.
Like, that's all.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, so we're really, you know,
focused in on like, what else
can we do for that community?
Of self-funded small business owners
to help them get to that point.
and I think on the other side of the
business, I'm really leaning more into,
some of the wealth management aspects of,
you know, that's kind of a hidden aspect.
I was a registered investment
advisor, for several years.
And so like I've been through all
the training on, personal wealth.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and that's part of it be coming
from investment being as well.
when you're in a pass through entity,
when you're an S corp. When you're an LLC.
The opportunities of how
to compensate yourself.
Mm-hmm.
And what your world are look very
different than when you have an investor
who said you take a salary mm-hmm.
And you're gonna work
for a long time mm-hmm.
Until you get paid out.
I think the piece of like,
especially in the flux of the current
administration, I. How can we not be
afraid and operate in a smart way?
And that additional piece of,
you know, your responsibilities
as a business owner mm-hmm.
But also your opportunities.
That's a new layer.
I think that's really, more people are
asking about in our operating work.
Ah, well, I will say I'm going
through that right now, so that
is definitely hitting home for me.
So, very interesting.
Thank you for sharing that.
And you answered my last question,
which is first steps for people to get
going on this journey, but signing up
for your newsletter and getting access
to, all of the, generous information
that you share, I think is fantastic.
We'll make sure we have links
to everything in the show notes.
Where else can people find you, Jill?
So my website is the Jill James.
If, you wanna join the newsletter,
it's the jill james.com/newsletter.
I also have a booking link on my website.
I know people are a little hesitant
to use it, but I'll talk to
anybody for 20 minutes and mm-hmm.
And brainstorm with you.
So, you know, feel welcome to use
that if you know you've heard some
things here that you wanna talk about.
I'm on LinkedIn Threads Blue Sky.
Hmm.
And Instagram, as, the Jill James.
Mm-hmm.
the company is, and then my
personal LinkedIn is Jill d James.
I'm curious about your use
of Instagram for what you do.
Like, do you find your
clients there or have?
Do you use Instagram?
Instagram for me is more of
a credibility, uh mm-hmm.
Step, I talk to a lot of people of like.
Various ages.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And one of their checks for, especially
for some of the more creator driven
businesses that I work with, is
they go to my Instagram page first.
Mm-hmm.
And they wanna see that I'm legit.
Mm-hmm.
And that I've made an effort.
So we don't do a lot of original content.
Like we repurpose a lot of the newsletter
content and just repackage it, with
graphics for Instagram, or I'll make
short videos, or we'll take an a MA clip.
but it is an important.
Credibility.
I treat it like a billboard.
Mm-hmm.
Like it's a live billboard for me.
Mm-hmm.
Of when you pass by.
Is there something useful there
and do you know how to contact me?
So that's really, that's
the role for Instagram.
you're right, it's not driving mm-hmm.
Business directly.
But I do hear a lot of people say,
Hey, you know what, I really, I
found you because you put something
interesting on Instagram and
I wanted know more about that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That is why I haven't used, what could
I do, that would be catchy enough
for Instagram, which I feel like
needs like kind of another level of
creativity than say LinkedIn and so
yeah, I've been thinking about that one.
And then, do you use TikTok or.
I don't use TikTok.
I have all the security concerns about
that and I have from the beginning.
so yes, I've had many people over
the years say, Hey, this is new.
You could be the blank of TikTok.
And I was just, you know,
I've had things like that.
I've, my business has not been
on Facebook and we've been off.
What X since 2017.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And I think this is part of, you
know, my centering principles is if
the only way my business can make it
is by being on platforms that I don't
wanna be on, then I'm okay if I fail.
Hmm.
That's a great way to look at it.
Yeah.
Well, this has been a
wonderful conversation.
Thank you so much, Jill, for generously
sharing your wisdom with the audience.
And, to everyone, please, make
sure you get on Jill's, email
newsletter list and, 'cause.
Of information shared.
And thank you again.
yeah, hopefully we'll do it again soon.
Thank you, Erin.
I would love that.
Thanks for having me.
I.