Andy Coulson: Welcome back to Crisis What Crisis, the podcast that aims to guide you towards a more resilient life and whatever it might throw at you. If this is your first time with us, please do hit subscribe wherever you're watching or listening, and please do leave us a review. It really helps make sure that these, I hope, useful conversations are shared as widely as possible.

Christina Perri: Nothing could ever make what happened okay. Nothing could ever make it have happened for a reason. Those things are not helpful. Those phrases aren't helpful for people who go through such trauma and grief. It's just that I've taken something that was so awful and I'm trying to make something beautiful out of it.

Andy Coulson: Christina Perry is a multi-platinum singer songwriter.

You'll know her for the breathtaking A Thousand Years or her breakout hit, Jar of Hearts. But behind those songs lies a deeply personal story of triumph over tragedy. Born near Philadelphia, Christina taught herself guitar at sixteen and was catapulted to fame in 2010. Yet it's her experiences offstage that also set her apart. Christina has faced unthinkable pain. Including the loss of her daughter, Rosie, in 2020. Yet she's turned that grief into action. Pushing for change in maternal health care and using her platform to inspire hope in others.

Christina Perri: I mean, if I ever felt a sense of purpose before in my life to be a songwriter or to be a performer or to be a mother even, it doesn't come close to the sense of purpose I feel to make this change for women.

Andy Coulson: Through it all her music has provided a supportive soundtrack, recovery anthems, if you like, for her fans around the world. Christina's ability to embrace and talk about her vulnerability has allowed her and so many others to find light from the darkest of times. Hers is a story of love, loss and ultimately a determination to turn personal crisis into purpose. And I'm so pleased that she's joined us today to share it.

Christina Perry Thank you for joining us from Los Angeles. Welcome to Crisis What Crisis. How are you today?

Christina Perri: Thank you. I'm good. I'm really good!

Andy Coulson: Christina, quite often on this podcast, we're sort of in search for the root of someone's resilience, you know, in their past, in their childhood and their upbringing.

What's clear from your story is that you had to find that resilience, perhaps earlier than most, you know, the age of eight, it was clear that you were struggling and that you needed support. I mean, as you look back across your life. Are you able to sort of identify, because although, of course, you were struggling at that age, you were also a very resilient child.

Christina Perri: Well, of course, looking back, I feel like I can see the resilience and I can also see the struggle. But when I was eight, I certainly didn't understand either one. I thought I was the problem. I thought I wasn't strong. I thought something else could fix me. I thought, you know, I was ashamed. I mean, I had all those feelings as like a young eight-year-old girl.

I feel like that's what I remember most about maybe the four or five years that I started going to therapy. Like I look at it now so differently, like now that I'm a parent, like I think about how my mom and dad put me in therapy thinking that would be. What's best for me, but now I'm like, well, but that just sort of told me that you couldn't help me and that I was too much for you.

It's so interesting how I've grown through my life, how I look at it differently. But absolutely. I think I was born with the strength that I used. My whole life and continue to nurture and grow because I got through eight I got through nine I got through ten and then I turned it into music and then I you know My whole story just kind of keeps unfolding like I kept folding in the pain folding in the hurt and, and started using it, uh, in, I don't know, way creative way, a way to be of service.

Like all these things just kind of started to happen, but I must give myself a tiny bit of credit that I must have been strong. But if you asked me when I was eight, the short answer is no, I had no idea.

Andy Coulson: So where do you think that was coming from for you? I mean, if you, you know, your parents, you've touched on there, but where, where do you, where do you think that strength was coming from?

Christina Perri: Well, definitely. I think my mom, I think I look back at my grandmother and her mother, and these were the generations of like, just hard work, hard work, hard work, hard work. Like I feel, you know, it was important for us to have chores for us to get things done. Like we had to work before we played, like there was like a whole sort of, you know, maybe I'm the last generation. I’m thirty-eight now. So, like in the late eighties and nineties, I feel like it was celebrated to be. Uh, strong to be working, to be, uh, resilient in that sort of way. And so like, I feel like my mom went to work every day. She didn't want to go to work. She'd rather be with us, but I saw her do that for the family. So, I feel like I believe in transgenerational stuff.

I believe in the trauma comes along and I think the strength and the, you know, the character comes along like from, from these people. And I adore my mom and my grandmother, but they're so stubborn and hardheaded and I think that maybe worked out great that they were like that, you know, and there's two sides to every coin.

But I think that even though I was super dramatic and just wanted love and affection and was really confused at my own thoughts and my existentialism at the age of eight and my parents didn't get me at all I really did learn a lot from them, and they really did love my brother.

And I've worked through my whole adult life in therapy and in doing different things to like truly to feel that way about them. That's so genuine. I love my parents so much. I'm grateful they're still here. And my mom was just staying with me for her 70th birthday. We have a great relationship. But that took a lot of work later in my life to look back and really put those pieces together. But again, at the time I didn't know I was learning resilience. I didn't know I was learning to be a strong woman, to be a strong girl, to get up when I fall down, they weren't conversations we had at my house.

We weren't a gentle parenting, woke family. My dad's from Italy. My mom is very old school from the fifties, like no one talks about their feelings. Everything's under the rug. Everything would just power forward. So, it was not an emotionally intelligent house, but it was a lot going on to watch and to model of just being strong and a strong woman. Cause my mom was just like a force. She got everything done. She did everything for everyone. She worked full time. So yeah, I think that really made me who I am.

Andy Coulson: You touched on the therapy, but you were I think I'm right in saying were prescribed a course of antidepressants for the first time when you were ten. Can I ask how do you feel about that?

Do you look back at that now on the decision of your doctors and those that were obviously seeking to help you?

Christina Perri Sure. Sure. I personally feel a lot different about it than I think my parents because of all the work I've done and the sort of studying I've done of psychology and like the way the brain works and emotionally the way the brain works for a child versus an adult and like all that stuff that I end up learning later in my life and has helped me parent my daughter. She is so me. She asks me the same questions I did when I was little, it’s spooky how much she's like me, but I have different answers for her. Not because my parents were wrong, that's the answers they had, but I've just learned and lived and experienced so much that I want to get to the reason why she's thinking these things, not put a band aid on it, not tell her because I said so. Or like, it's going to be fine or you're safe or something like that.

Andy Coulson: Can you give us an example of a conversation that you are able to have with your child now that they weren't able to have with you?

Christina Perri: Yes. Okay. So, I can think of exactly one time we were in the bath, and she was in the bathtub and we're talking, and she says to me, “mom, do you ever like think about the fact that you're thinking like you're thinking thoughts, but you're thinking them. Like, do you ever think about that? Our human brain, like we're just thinking, but we can hear ourselves thinking” and I almost fell over because I remember so specifically saying something to my mom like “do you ever think about thinking and like how, where that comes from and what makes thoughts.”

And my mom, I remember saying, “no, I don't.” With Carmela, my daughter, I said, Yeah, yeah, I, I think that I, I've thought that I wonder all the time, you know, where do the thoughts come from and what we do with them and, you know, and she would just go, Oh, okay.

And then like starts playing. And I was like, oh my gosh, the small, subtle parenting moment there that just potentially set two very similar souls and brains on two very different paths for their lives,

Andy Coulson: Which must be sort of wonderful and must cause you to be slightly on alert as well.

Christina Perri: Oh yeah.

Andy Coulson: You've got both of those things going on.

Christina Perri: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. She'll say things that I say. Another example like, um, she’ll say something really mean and she'll be like,” ah, I don't know why I said that. I'm, I'm so bad. I don't know why I said that.” Now in our house, I've never once called her bad. I read a book called No Bad Kids.

I have the gentle parenting thing down, you know, that I do the best I can. And she calls herself bad because she was mean and said something really mean and she didn't understand why and, in that case, when I was a child, I would have been punished and sent to my room to be totally alone.

And that shaped my childhood very much like being alone in my room to think about how bad I am versus my daughter. I sit down with her. I say, “honey, you're not bad. That was, you know, that was something that you said that wasn't nice but doesn't make you bad. You're not bad. That's just a bad thing to say. So how about, you know, how do we say that differently? Or why do you, you know, think that you are upset? Like let's talk through that.” And then she will. And I see her not take it on the way that I took it on as an identity. It was part of my identity that I was bad. I'm terrified for her that she will be like me, but I think because she's so much me, like you said, I'm, it's a heightened awareness, but at the same time, like I believe telling her the things that I think I needed.

So, I feel like I'm doing the best I can. Like I'm so meant to be her mom. Like I feel so meant to be this little girl's mom because of the things she says. And then like, I have what I think, and hopefully in those moments is like. You know, a good answer for her in that, in that to get her through to help support her.

Andy Coulson: That whole idea is so new, just how wonderful that you're able to take all the experiences, some of which you know, we'll talk about a bit more in terms of, you know, as you got older and channel them into something so positive. And so constructive and not only that, but with someone that you'd love so much, it's just, you know, it must be, as I say, I'm sure that that alertness, is alive, but you are literally seeing kind of evolution in a way not to overstate it, but to be able to put yourself into that and the way that you are must be so wild, rewarding as well. Moving forward, your life at 17 and into your early twenties, Christina, you know, was also in a difficult time. Just give us a sense of how difficult, if you don't mind.

Christina Perri: Sure. So around 17 is when I started to drink and do drugs.

I feel like for the first time I now have such an understanding and language around it where it really in that moment was like medicine to me and really kind of helped me get through. A lot of people who end up getting sober say that like it, it actually helped them survive or get through some of the hardest, like mental seasons of their lives.

So, at 17 to 23, you know, as scary as it was that I was drinking and doing drugs and like taking all these risks in life, it got me through it. I was really emotional. I mean, I did have music. Music was like the one thing since I was about 15 that I was writing poetry, writing that then turned into songs that then would definitely heal.

At the time, I remember thinking it was fun, and you know, you're young and everybody's doing it, and I just had this little voice in my head that knew I was doing it different than everybody, I would have a drink, and I would just like have a sense of ease.

And I was like, I had an awareness really young that I just needed it, I needed it to go to a party. I needed it to just exist for a little while. And I'm so very grateful that I made it to sobriety. So, at 23, I ended up getting sober and that's really young. I mean, I guess everybody, if it's meant for them, gets over at a different time or, or a different age or the correct age for them.

I'm very glad mine was 23 because at that point, I just don't know if I would have lived much longer. I was taking terrible risks, and I was making bad decisions, but I look at it like a present, like a gift. I woke up one day and sitting next to my bed was just the thought like, “hey, I think I should be sober. I think I should stop this.” I didn't even know anybody who was sober, but I knew someone who knew someone that was sober. And so, I asked her to ask them how to get sober. And then they said at this point I was living in LA, and they said to go to this meeting in this log cabin on a Sunday at 11.30 in the morning.

I went and I changed my life forever.

Andy Coulson: You used the word risk there. Just explain what you mean by that, just so we get a good understanding of where you were at that stage.

Christina Perri: So, I was drinking every day. I was doing drugs every day. I was crashing my car. I was losing my friendships. I was about to lose my job.

I was choosing drugs and alcohol over everyone else. I mean, I feel like that's the best way to describe addiction in the shortest way possible- it’s trading, you know, everything for one thing versus trading the one thing for everything. And that was me. One by one, I just cared less and less about my life.

And then the drugs and the alcohol became the number one thing. And I'm so glad that I had that thought, you know, like I said, it's a gift to even think that especially when you're young and especially when you don't know anyone who's sober.

Andy Coulson: It was going to be my next question. You're 23 years old, that is no age and yet you're able to reach that point of understanding. So, when I think about you as an eight-year-old with those kinds of very deep very meaningful questions that you're asking you know, you could kind of reach a view that you are just racing through life quite possibly at a faster rate than most other people.

I mean in terms of the way that your mind is working. Is that how you see it? Was there a particular trigger, by the way?

Christina Perri: You know, it's funny, it was more emotional than it was physical. And I think that's also important to note. A lot of people who are not alcoholic or not addicts, they think that like the worst physical thing that could happen to someone would get them sober or would it be a catalyst for sobriety. And interestingly, as a sober person, I'm now sober, 13 years and I have seen and heard thousands of stories and it's always actually not the physical thing.

So, like the crashing of the car, the breaking of a bone, the losing of your job or your house or your kids or your, you know, all those things don’t do sometimes. For me, it was a deep, deep sadness. And yes, I think it also is important to note that I was that emo eight-year-old that had the awareness of the depths of my soul, you know, like, I think that's important because, you know, the deep sadness brought me to my knees, but I'm grateful for it.

So, it was more for me, a feeling than it was an event.

Andy Coulson: 2010. Let's move forward. A big year for you. Your single Jar of Hearts is featured on So You Think You Can Dance, and your life takes a dramatic turn, a positive turn. It's an incredible moment, but one that must also have been terrifying. That must've given what you just told us and given the industry that you're now being thrust into, must've tested you, but just tell me about that time when you're first thrown into this insane world of fame and success.

Christina Perri: Sure. Well, I think what's interesting, if anyone listening has done the math real quick, I didn't stay sober the first time I got sober, which I also love to share because you know, nobody does it perfectly, but to be fair, the first year and a half of my career, which was, I like to think is, you know, it started on June 30th, 2010 at 8 PM. When my song was on that show, my life was never the same. After that I quit my waitressing job. I flew to New York city. I signed a record deal. Suddenly, I'm a recording artist. All that was so. traumatizing, but it was so fast and fun, not like a scary job, like a very, very cool job that a lot of people, you know, want to have. And so, there was such a swift, like my life felt like it was moving so fast that I genuinely didn't have time to think about drugs and alcohol. Which is a blessing.

I mean, I was busy, I genuinely was in a different place every two days like I didn't have a day off for a year and a half, but when I did have a break, the first thing I did was drink. So that was May of 2011 And then I didn't get sober again until March 1st, 2012, which is still my sobriety date now.

So, that's what was 13 years ago, almost 13. So, I think it's important to note that because I'm definitely not perfect. And I struggled because I find it so fascinating, like, of course I drank. Like, I remember it was the day my album came out. That was the day at midnight that my first album came out.

And I had a drink by myself and lost my sobriety. Fortunately, I didn't do anything to lose my career or my friends or my family or anything like that. But I was so disappointed in myself, and I realized it doesn't matter how long I'm away from a drink. I can do it just like that. I really learned a lot by doing that.

And then by realizing I couldn't get my sobriety back. I kept trying for the rest of that year and it was 2011 when a thousand years came out. I was touring around the world. You know, everything was so good, and I was so scared, and I didn't like how it felt because I think people do drugs and drink alcohol to change our feeling and whether it's good or bad or whatever, it's just always to change it.

And I just didn't like the way I felt. Everyone looking at me, celebrating me, it was like too much for me, for the little emo eight-year-old. And so truthfully, every struggle of mine has been a bit of a gift also. And so that was another one, where I learned that drinking like that, alcoholism and my brain, I didn't have a drinking problem, I had a thinking problem and I needed to know that because through that year that I wasn't sober, I wasn't drinking a lot. I wasn't doing drugs. I was working a lot. So, it ended up not being about the drugs and alcohol for me at that point. It was the sadness. It brought me right back to that sadness. That deep, deep sort of like hole in my chest. And so, I do remember doing a promo tour and bumping into a friend of mine who was sober in Portland, Oregon. And they came to my hotel, and she said, “you look awful.” And I was like, “yeah I wouldn't mind if I got hit by a bus.” That's what I said.

And she was like, “yeah, let's go to a meeting.” And I was like, okay. And the window opened, and I jumped back in it, and I shut the window, and I've stayed in it since. But I really think it's important to note that yeah, when my career was doing great, I was sober. I don't think I would have even gotten discovered or been a musician or been able to be that, you know, hardworking and bright.

I think sobriety comes with a brightness and I think that brightness attracts. It's your dream life, your dream person, your, you know, that's just my, my opinion. So, I was bright, and I was ready, and I was open, and I was clear. And then I got this dream job, and it did eat away at me and I did end up drinking.

But when I got it back and when I got my sobriety back in March of 2012, I had rules for myself that I wasn't going to drink over my career. I wasn't going to drink over a dude because that was a big one for me. I was always dating terrible people. And that one day at a time, like I just wasn't like, it just wasn't an option.

And then that state of mind, plus going to meetings, plus sponsoring other women led me to stay sober for about six years. I didn't realize was about to get me through the hardest season of my life and stay sober through that. Because of the work I did those first six years of that sobriety.

Andy Coulson: We recently had the singer songwriter Katie Melua on the podcast and the impact of her sudden fame took a heavy toll on her and you know in a different way, it really affected her mental health.

She had an acute psychotic breakdown and although she doesn't sort of point to one single thing, because how can you at one single thing? She certainly thinks that the kind of responsibility of fame was an element of it, that there's this kind of machine around you. There are people whose livelihoods are kind of relying on you. There's the kind of, there's the treadmill of writing, recording, performing, getting out on tour and all the kind of revenue that comes with that, not just for you, but for others. Was that an element for you, how have you managed that element as you've gone through your, your career?

Christina Perri: You know, it's interesting. I think she's right. I think that part of it is daunting and it's exhausting mentally, emotionally, spiritually, you know, by the end of a tour, you're fragmented into pieces, and you must, you know, figure out how to put yourself back together. You must figure out how to prioritize your mental health, how to make boundaries.

There are so many things that you have to do to get through a schedule like that and a responsibility like that. But I want to say one other thing that I've figured out and someone said this to me early on in my career and I had no idea what they meant until I did. And that is that fame happens to everyone around you, not you. And I really felt that maybe a year and a half, two years into my music being famous, my hair being famous, my tattoos being famous, you know, parts of me being famous, but I still felt exactly like the girl who was the waitress. I still felt like the girl who was twenty, seven, sixteen, I'm still me.

And suddenly, my best friends treat me different. My parents treat me different. My town treats me different. Like, suddenly, every person I ever went to school with is hitting me up. Slowly, everyone around me just had a different vibe and it's kind of hard to explain because I also don't want to sound too dramatic, but it was different enough to make me feel uncomfortable and then I was so sensitive.

I'm still that very sensitive little girl and I didn't like it. I didn't like the way it felt. I was like “Hey guys, nothing's happened!” But now people know my songs, so I did struggle mentally with that, that really messed with me. People wanting to be my friends, people wanting to hang out with me and then, you know, me not being sure why, like if it was because of who I am or because of how people like my music, it was odd.

And I'm such an authentic person that I suddenly felt a sense of being inauthentic and people around me being inauthentic. And that killed me because I'm such a let's get to the language of the heart kind of person like I want to talk to you, and I would notice people would be different around me and that's just what fame does.

It's so interesting I mean, I see it 24/7 in LA, I see it. People ask me why I change my hair constantly. It's so funny my record label, everyone would say stop changing your hair.

That's exactly why I'm colouring my hair. It's exactly why I'm changing my hair. Like I didn't love it. I didn't love that part. I'm being honest. I didn't love it. And so that really was part of it too. I feel like the music and the touring and the playing with my band and being on a tour bus with my eleven-favourite people, that part was the part that saved me.

That was the only part I liked, you know, it was all the other stuff that I really didn't.

Andy Coulson: How interesting, because a lot of people would reach the conclusion that, you know, changing your hair continually, changing your look continually was actually about reinvention, and when in fact it's the exact opposite. It's just the way you stay the same person, right?

Christina Perri: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Andy Coulson: Christina let's talk about your next journey, your journey through motherhood. It's been profoundly moving. Joys, losses that we'll discuss, more resilience. I'm sure becoming a mother has transformed your or added to your understanding of what is strength, what is vulnerability, as well as a lot more, I'm sure.

But let's start at the beginning. You marry your husband, Paul, in December 2017. You met him the year before, after what I think was six years of pretty much continual touring, right?

Christina Perri: Yeah, I actually met him the day we got married, December 12th, 2017, was three years we had met on that day before.

Took us three years to date. And then we dated in 2016 and got married in 2017. He asked me out. He tells everyone he asked me out for two years and I said no for two years.

Andy Coulson: Right. Okay. So, you meet, you eventually fall in love, and you fall pregnant, and you marry. You give birth to Carmela, who you've mentioned already, your first daughter in January 2018.

You suffered from postpartum depression, obviously a terribly difficult experience. Again, if I can ask, just give us a sense of that period of your life.

Christina Perry: Sure. Well, I like to look at it almost like waves is what I've learned about it. Because again, the way I am, when something's happening, I like to study it. I like to learn about it. It brings me comfort. So, I remember going through it. I even remember having a word, like a safe word with my husband. Cause I was like, listen, I have depression my whole life. I'm a sober alcoholic. I'm probably going to get postpartum depression. Like, I feel like that's just probably going to be me.

I was like, we're going to try to. See it before it comes. We're going to try to just make room for it in case it does. Like I really educated on it, but it turns out when you go through it, doesn't matter that much because it just knocks you down. I felt like it was a big wave, and I felt like it knocked me down and it happened to me twice, which I also want to point out is a bit comforting that it's not all the time.

So when I read a lot about postpartum depression or when other people were scaring me a bit about it I thought it was like, you know a stamp and then that's just what you have now and then that's just one more thing you have to treat or you have to go through your life carrying and the truth is it wasn't that for me and I actually think hormonally it isn't that for anybody.

I think what happens is physically we go through different spikes of different hormones and our bodies regulate after birth and you know, becoming a mom changes you molecularly. So, I think it's just about riding that wave. And then sometimes it's just stronger for others. And sometimes it's, you know, easier for others but I do want to point out that it really was not all the time.

I enjoyed a lot of the early motherhood stuff. It was just around four months postpartum and around thirteen months postpartum that I had major dips. And what that looked like for me was negative thinking, like really scary thoughts. I remember thinking I didn't want to be here. I remember thinking my family be better off without me. Thoughts like that that come in, they're intrusive and that don't make, you know, a ton of sense. And I just didn't want to do anything. I didn't want to get out of bed. I didn't want to take, the baby out in the world. I didn't want to see my friends. I didn't want to talk to anyone. That’s what it looks like for me.

I get very inside. I go in like a little turtle shell. And that's when I know by cutting off connection that I’m not well, but I ended up getting through it without medication. I feel like a lot of women go on medication at that time. Absolutely love it. I'm here for it. I support it in every way. Like you do what you need to do. I went to a lot of meetings. I did a lot of therapy. I mean, I genuinely did the things for me that comfort me. I also want to say I put together a lot of Legos. This is one thing for me that's for my central nervous system. I feel like putting together puzzles and Legos put me back together.

You know, they say the oxygen mask, you must put your oxygen mask on first before your child. Most people don't do that because that feels so wrong until they're forced to do it. So, for me, that was one of those moments. There were two of them in that first year of Carmela's life where I had to do something for me. I had to like sleep through the night. At one point it was just as simple as like hey, I haven't slept for six weeks. I'm going cuckoo. It was like learning a whole new world that I'm in. Like motherhood changed my whole world. I thought I was tired before I had kids. I thought I was stressed out or sad before I had kids, it was a whole different level once I became a mom. I remember thinking like, how did I ever think I was tired? Like when I was on tour you know, living this like free frivolous life, but it was also the best thing I ever experienced in my whole life.

It's my favourite season, you know, for how sort of clunky it was in the beginning. Paul and I weren't married, and our parents are really Catholic. And then it was like, well, we have to get married. So, then I got married to Paul at City Hall with a nine-month pregnant belly and then Carmella comes and I'm just sad like I mean it was just not your picture perfect anything and I feel like after she turned one, everything just clicked back into place.

And that was probably just that everything levelled out hormonally, mentally, all the work I had done started to really add up. And Paul and I came out of the newborn fog, and you know, like everyone I talked to has similar experiences in their first year of parenthood, but it happened to be me and Paul's first year of marriage at the same time.

And so, we laugh about it, how we stayed together. I don't know. We were insane but we ended up bonding over that. I also think what then came next was a direct result of the strength, like the foundation that we ended up building was way stronger than I could have ever imagined after, because of what we were about to go through.

Andy Coulson Let's move to January 2020. You fall pregnant again, Christina, but very sadly you have a miscarriage, I think, at 11 weeks. And then, in November, so towards the end of that year you're pregnant, and you lose your daughter, Rosie, who is stillborn. I mean, obviously there aren't words to even attempt to get close to the pain that you must have been feeling at that stage.

So that strength that you've just described, tested in the most, appalling way and I'm so sorry for what you and Paul have been through. Try and give us a sense again, Christina on how you were getting through the days at that stage.

Christina Perri: Sure. Well, I'll say this. They were, if I look back, they were different chapters of the same book because the pregnancy I had that I miscarried at eleven weeks, I got pregnant November 2019, totally typical pregnancy up until my miscarriage, which I also want to note that my pregnancy with Carmela was completely typical and she had no medical issues and I had no medical issues. So, getting pregnant with our second was so exciting and what we wanted very badly.

And I got pregnant right away when we tried, my body was really working. And that January of 2020. I miscarried, and I wasn't super discouraged because one, the conversation around women's health has gotten much better. Miscarriage is, you know, what they say, one in four women miscarry and that there's genetic abnormalities that it's no one's fault and there's nothing that could be wrong.

It could just be random. And I had all this information in my head and my friends and family and everyone around me. And I was very loved through that miscarriage. It was certainly devastating, I mean, I was heartbroken because we were just about to post that we were pregnant because I was just about to hit the twelve-week sort of safe period.

We even took a picture with Mickey Mouse in Disney World holding a onesie that said baby and that was like our announcement photo. And so, I was heartbroken. I was absolutely heartbroken, but I want to say I was not discouraged. Like I said, I wanted to try again right away because I thought, okay, you know, this is the risk of being pregnant.

And so many women go through this. And, I will also say that this is when I opened up this conversation on my social media, where, you know, a lot of people have negative things to say about social media. And I could, if I wanted to, but for me and my personal story, what started to happen when I began my fertility difficulties, social media really saved me.

I mean, I shared about the loss and then I just became part of this club that nobody wants to be a part of, but the women in this club are the sweetest women on earth because we've all been there, and they want to carry you and help you through to the next thing. And when women band together with just love, it's, it's so powerful.

And so many people I didn't know carried me through that. I always like to say, I was carried through the whole thing by my family. And then everybody who reached out to me during that time. And so, I got through it, and I remember thinking that I would love to try again. And so, we did right away, and I got pregnant with Rosie, and I found out Mother’s Day of 2020. What's interesting. You know, I have to note is 2020 was a terrible year for everybody. So, at this point we were in the lockdown, um, you know, the world had shut down and we were stuck. We were living in New Jersey. We moved to this very old house. It's where we went into lockdown and so we were there for 168 days without leaving.

And then we ended up going to the Jersey shore for like a month to just be on the beach. And anyway, I think it's important to say that for the story. And I was so excited to get pregnant again. Was I scared? Yes. Like I was now a pregnant after a lost mom, it's called a pal. So, I was like, you know, checking in with people constantly about the anxiety of being pregnant again after miscarriage, but what was coming was so much worse than what I had been through. So, I was just optimistic. I was cautiously optimistic. So, I was making sure that I was, you know, doing all the things, I was going to all the doctors since I had a miscarriage, I was now considered a high-risk pregnancy.

So, I had a high-risk doctor that I would go see extra on top of my OBGYN. And, you know, I was taking all the steps and doing all the things. And this is in New York city. So, I was only twenty minutes from New York. So, my doctors were all in Manhattan and I would go in and again, it was pandemic, we all wore masks and, you know, it was a scary time in life, but it's also kind of fun for anyone who had a kid under five, like we made our whole house into a preschool. We were like painting on the walls with Carmela, you know, she's about to be a big sister. And so, we're getting her room. We put her from a crib to a bed cause she's a big girl.

And then we made the nursery for Rosie and had all her things. And you know, Carmela was getting older and older. And the second pregnancy I had, Carmela didn't know that it came and went because she was only one. But when I was pregnant with Rosie, she was two and a half, and Carmela being the existential queen that she is, she is very smart and verbal, and she was just very aware.

She talked about her little baby all the time. We talked about that, you know, so when we ended up losing Rosie in November, it blew a hole through me, Paul and Carmela, I have to say, she really was excited about being a big sister and she was only almost three and I had to tell her and teach her about death and that was awful and wouldn't recommend to anyone, but it was the truth and so we went through this thing where we all entered into a grief house as a family in November of 2020.

So, all I know is that I went to the doctors and my pregnancy was totally normal and typical, and then I went in at 30 weeks. And they found atresia of the gut in Rosie, which is not common, but not life threatening. And they told me that she was going to be born, and she'd go into surgery, and we met with the surgeon.

We were suddenly on a high alert, but no one thought she was going to pass away. Everyone said, this is okay. And so, I was in the hospital for a couple of days and between November 10th and November 24th, I was monitored every 48 hours. And that protocol, what that means is they give you a stress test, they check the baby's heart rate, they check my heart rate, they check the movement, they count everything, and they do all this testing for 45 minutes.

And it's supposed to tell the doctors that the mom is safe, and the baby is safe for 48 more hours. And so, I was doing everything that I was told, but you know, we were aware that this was becoming very high risk and at any moment they were going to take the baby out and we were totally ready for that.

And we were getting through that, which felt shocking and traumatizing and hard when November 23rd came, it was like 11pm at night, and I just remembered, I stopped feeling her move.

And so, we went into the hospital around 11.30, my OB met me there, which I thought was a bad sign, because I had called her and said, suddenly, like, I can't get her to move, I'm drinking apple juice, I'm doing all the things.

So she met me there at the same time and that's when they confirmed that Rosie had died and you there was a moment where I sort of exited my body I feel like I was looking down at me Paul the doctor the nurse that the sonogram machine that ultrasound because they just like kept looking for a heartbeat I'll never forget that feeling and knowing and then I just couldn't look at anybody. But I was looking at the ceiling and I could see me looking down at the scene and it was heartbreaking.

It was absolutely heartbreaking and traumatizing and shocking.

We had our babysitter with Carmella. Our parents drove to our house in the middle of the night. So, they were there when Carmella woke up. We didn't tell Carmella till we got home. We were able to meet Rosie. They asked if I wanted to do, you know, a C section or, or deliver naturally. And, you know, I had to go through the whole thing. I went through her whole birth and we met her and held her and say goodbye to her and, you know, it was so tragically sad, everyone in the whole hospital was sad, like the whole floor, every nurse, every doctor, there was something that was so sad about this experience that was just the worst, the absolute worst moment of my life, worst moment of Paul's life.

I could tell a lot of stories about that experience, but one thing I think if this podcast is about resilience, one thing I will say is I immediately wanted to know the right thing to do and say to Carmela.

So, I knew what I'd just been through and what it’s like physically, having just given birth. And, you know, I had like a day and a half before I could go home to her, but Paul and I decided to focus on what we're going to say to Carmella. And that really was helpful for us in those first 24, 48 hours of this grief.

I talked to three toddler specialists, two social workers, two OBGYNs and my favourite author, wrote me back on Instagram, a children's book author or children's like specialist author, the woman who wrote No Bad Kids that I love so much. She wrote me back and I asked everybody what to say. And in doing that, we, you know, we had something to really get through this for, you know, I feel like I've never told Carmela, and I probably won't tell her until she's a grown up that she saved us. She got us through those 48 hours.

And then we got home. I'll tell you we didn't want to tell her the truth, but that's what basically every single person said to do so when we told her, we were home, and she knew we were in the hospital, so she thought we were coming home with the baby. We did not come home with the baby.

We sat down with her; we didn't look at our parents like we like literally walked in the house and walked straight to Carmela's room because we didn't want to break down, we wanted to be very strong. I wanted to just be soft but strong in this moment and say to her, “mommy and daddy were at the hospital. Mommy had the baby. The baby's body didn't work, and she died.” That's all we said. And we waited for her to react. This was the script given to us. It was awful and it needed to be that way. And so, we said this to her and Carmela, the special spirit that she is, she just looked at me and Paul and she was playing, and I saw her sort of hear us and then kept playing.

And then she like heard it and understood it. And then she just looked at both of us and said, “Don't worry, Mom and Dad, one day you'll have another baby, and their body will work.”

Andy Coulson: First, I just want to say thank you for sharing that story, because I know why you're doing it. And that is because it's of use to others.

And, I think that's just, um, well, it speaks for itself. It's just an amazing thing to do. To tell the story in the way that you have, I think is just in the detail that you have, is just fundamentally helpful for other people. And I just want to say, you know, on behalf of everyone who's listening and watching, I'm sorry for what you went through.

But you've now turned this incredible pain into, you know, advocacy, pushing for changes in maternal health protocols. I know you've worked with the American College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists. You know we talk a lot about finding purpose in crisis, finding a meaning out of crisis.

Christina Perri: Absolutely. I mean, if I ever felt a sense of purpose before in my life, like to, you know, be a songwriter or to be a performer or to be a mother, even though it doesn't come close to the sense of purpose, I feel to make this change for women, because at the end of the day, everything I went through was preventable.

If I had been tested for a blood clot, right, it's this simple and I got tested for antiphospholipid syndrome and I tested positive for it after Rosie died after that miscarriage. It is the protocol to only test women after two or three losses. It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense. To anyone I've spoken to, once I figured this out and to now, I haven't had anyone say they disagree either.

So, it's a matter of making this change and someone had to speak up about it. And I remember walking on a treadmill and being so angry and crying. Like when I found this out, I mean to find out and it was like twelve eeks later to find out because I went on an investigation like something's wrong with me.

What happened? Why did Rosie die? Everyone kept saying all her tests were normal. Nothing was wrong, we don't know how this happened. We don't know how this happened. So, I turned into my own investigator, and I found out about this and did this test and then realised that I wasn't even eligible for it.

So, I had this moment and this sense that I am, I'm supposed to do this.

Not only am I supposed to do this for Rosie, and I get to do this for her in her honour and her life gets to have this like extremely beautiful purpose, her short life. But I'm capable of doing this. I'm strong enough, I'm loud enough, I have a following, I have a desire to help women, and I have it.

And even though I don't want it, I like, really, like, hey, I really wish I didn't have it. Wish I didn't get chosen for this. It happened. It happened. There was nothing I could do about it because I didn't know. And so now I have to educate people, so they know. And since this has happened and since I found out about this and since I've recovered, you know, I want to say the best ending to this story is that I have a, my double rainbow baby Pixie, who was born in October of 2022.

And everyone says to me, how did you do it? How did you do it? How did you do it? And I say, because Carmella told us that we would. And Carmela knew we would, and Carmela needed this little sibling. She knew they were going to come in and they were going to be okay. And so, she carried us through that whole experience.

And I took blood thinner, which is all I had to do to have a healthy baby which again is part of my advocacy, like that is very simple. And it's just gotten the test, take blood thinner, have a baby who's alive. I'm going to share it. For the rest of my life until it changes, and then some, I have nothing to lose. I just want women to know, I want women to ask for the test and I will say like thousands of women already have.

Nothing could ever have made it have happened for a reason. Those things are not helpful. Those phrases aren't helpful for people who go through such trauma and grief. It's just that I've taken something that was so awful and I'm trying to make something beautiful out of it in her honour. And so that's it! That's what I'm doing. That's the chat! That’s the thing I'm talking about. I mean, obviously I love music. I'm still performing. I made lullaby records for all my daughters, for Carmela, for Rosie and for Pixie.

And, you know, I continue to be a recording artist and do that, but, but this sense of purpose, it fired me up. I know what I need to do. And I remember the day I felt that I was chosen to do it. So that's it. I'm going to hopefully make it happen.

Andy Coulson: Thank you sincerely for sharing that all with us I think there's so much of use for anyone who's listening to this who either is going through something similar or maybe know someone who's going through something similar or is in the orbit of someone either who has suffered grief or who has you know come on any stage of the journey that you've just described.

Thank you so much for sharing it all with us.

End.