Hi, I'm Nina Endrst

I'm Anna Toonk. Welcome to how to be human, a podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humaneness on this episode Anna and I discussed forgiveness take a seat clear mind and let's chat Hello, hello. Hello. Hello Are you ready to dance?

Oh, I'm ready I we have absolute former like past selves of us we have no chill. It's like literally picked up my phone this morning. Like what are we talking about? And then I'm like, Haha, of course of course we are.

It's funny because certain topics I've had like a pretty like I have a black around it's funny because I work a lot more in advance than Nina does. And like we've had to find a compromise of like our working styles of like, you know, we decide our topics like kind of in batches and stuff and like not to say the UN is not working on it or whatever but like I know I need more time just like for my own insanity to like let stuff come to the surface and things and it makes me laugh which ones my brain absolutely will not retain. And for today's topic forgiveness I had to keep being like we're not gonna forget when it was like you need to prepare for forgiveness and I was like my brain kept being like nope not interested which does reflect some of my you know, personal feelings about it. But I have a definition for us and once again when we do some of these I was doing my my tab closing and

Okay, I got one I got one handy. Oh, I have a habit

here at Oxford, the action or a process of forgiving or being forgiven. I don't know about you that feels a bit inadequate so we could pedia has our forgiveness in a psychological sense is the intentional and voluntary process by which one may initially feel victimized undergoes a change in feelings and attitude. Regarding a given offense and overcomes negative emotions, such as resentment and vengeance however justified it might be in parentheses. Theorists differ however, in the extent to which they believe forgiveness also implies replacing the negative emotions with positive attitudes, ie an increased ability to wish the offender well. And certain legal contexts forgiveness is a term for absolving or giving up all claims on an account of debt loan obligation or other claims. There's obviously more one thing I wanted to add like because you know, good old Wikipedia, there's always a full last page on whatever you want to know. But something had said that I think is really important it my brain hugely struggles to truly understand is on the psychological level. Forgiveness is different from simple condoning, excusing, or pardoning or forgetting, which I think is really important. And here's some of the stuff in the parenthesis of that statement. But on a psychological level. Forgiveness is different from simple condoning viewing and action as harmful, harmful yet to be forgiven or overlooked for certain reasons of charity, excusing or Pardini pardoning merely releasing the offender from responsibility for inaction or forgetting attempting to somehow remove from one's conscious mind the memory of a given offense. That's where I struggle forgiveness often feels like condoning hardening, excusing, or absolution. And I don't always like it.

Well, allow me to read something from John hopkins.or. V.

John Hopkins. Yeah, the one of the college

I believe the Johns Hopkins Medicine, the hospital Of course. You're never heard of them?

No, I've heard of them. Oh, the hospital and I think college as well. I

think it is too. So. Okay.

So I was just being stupid, though. As if you had contacted No,

no. Absolutely. And he this is a note from him. So amazing. You're right. The good news studies have found that the act of for forgiveness can reap huge rewards for your health, lowering the risk of heart attack, improving cholesterol levels and sleep reducing pain, blood pressure and levels of anxiety, depression and stress and research points to an increase in the forgiveness health connection as you age. There is an enormous physical burden Have to being hurt and disappointed, says Dr. Karen Schwartz. Ain't that the truth? But once I'm like, Aha, chronic anger. See, this is the what is the difference between Anna and I, She researches stuff and my body just goes through this thing where they're like, it's like, I know that forgiveness is coming up subconsciously. So I'm going to throw you into all of these situations where you get to research in real time, through your own body and emotions. And then you can come to the table with lots of things to talk about. So this is where I've been lately. Chronic anger puts you in fight or flight mode, which results in numerous changes in heart rate, blood pressure and immune response, those changes, then increase the risk of depression, heart disease and diabetes, among other conditions.

Do I have chronic anger? I think it's possible I have chronic anger.

1000 did I am afflicted by I am struggling every day with chronic anger. It's not going away. And there's no cure.

Yeah, like zero days.

Zero of whether today's been better today. But like, there's time, it's only 353. But like, I have been so angry the past week that I've really had to check myself because, I mean, I've been like, furious and I was talking to way about this because he was like, I'm like, You know what I mean? Like, I could just like, like, break shit. You know those places?

I'm just imagine this going down because I think he was probably like, yeah, no, I

know. I don't know. I mean, there are times where he obviously human like he will have moments. And then of course, I'm like, Why are you so angry. And he's like, what, like, so but I am and always have been a very angry birds. And I have gotten shit about it all my life. And I've really held a lot of shame about it, because I don't want to walk around angry. And I don't want to be perceived as angry. Yeah, or negative. But something that's really interesting that happened to me a couple nights ago is I had a dream about my ex boyfriend who committed suicide. And I felt him the next morning like I was like he's hanging out today. So like, that's cool. So I was I was like, really weepy on the way to class. And it was just so bizarre, but something that happened between him and I, we had a really toxic relationship. It was like when my anger had a real opportunity to thrive back in the day, and the craziest thing happened, because I thought for a while after we broke up, like I was convinced he was gonna, like kill me which, to be fair, I don't think he would have ever done anything like that. But I was so scared of him when we first broke up. And I was just had so much resentment, but also a lot of fear. And I had been out of New York and I hadn't seen or talked to him in probably like a year, maybe two or more at that point. And I walked into a bar with my friends at like three o'clock in the morning in Union Square, and he was at the bar. And I was like, this is this is not really happening. Like I saw. It's the he's the first it was like a fucking movie. Anna is the first person I saw.

New York will do your dirty, dirty. But here's the

here's the thing. We sat and talked at that bar for hours. And my guy friends were like, we go to tell John, they'd be like, guy, I was the fuck boy I was dating at the time. I was like, Oh, really, he's not gonna give a shit. He's probably getting ready to break up with me, which by the way, he was

gonna tell him how much he cared.

He was like, that's cool. Like, I don't whatever. But I, we talked and talked and talked. And really, I felt such a shift. And that was the only time in my life I have felt like true. Full Body forgiveness on like that kind of level. And then the next time I looked him up, he was dead.

I mean, isn't it nice when it works out that way in the sense of like, I mean, death, well, losing, I was thinking about forgiveness a lot in terms of like a people's quest for closure. And we just had Father's Day, and people are often very kind to me, since my dad is dead. You know, Nina's very kind to me and as always makes a point to be like, if you want to talk about your dad, you're more than welcome to On this day. But I think maybe preparing for this episode, I was thinking a lot about closure and how closure and forgiveness feel intertwined. You know, and I don't think other people can give us closure. You know, like, I think in some ways, it's it's like I'm lucky that I've been able to find a lot of forgiveness with my, my own dad, because the story stops. So it didn't get added to, you know that if I was still holding a lot of anger, like, that's just so long to keep giving that energy. But like you, we don't always it when someone's alive or in front of us, or we feel like we have the illusion we can like work it out with them or whatever, it's so hard to give that to yourself. And I think it happens so rarely, when you really can sit down with someone and have a conversation or have some kind of interaction, or whatever, where you feel that sense of like, like, I'm not carrying that anymore, like whatever it was, I was carrying, anger, hurt, disappointment, whatever. I'm not, you know, like, and I think most of the time, we have to, we do have to give it to ourselves. But like, it is such a beautiful thing, when you get to be present enough to realize, like, I was able to show up and have this conversation with this person, like, a lot of people would have just spun right around and walked out of the bar, you know, and been like, whatever, he can blow up my phone later or whatever, you know, but to be able to, like, show up and be like, this is a moment, I trust myself enough to navigate it. I'm going to sit down with this person have this difficult conversation, whatever that may be, you know, it doesn't mean you necessarily gotten to everything. Oh, your relationship. But you know, sometimes you don't? Sometimes it's like,

that's why it was like a very cool experience. It's like, yeah, so rare and so bizarre.

I feel like it's rare sometimes to also like one, I think it's rare to have those moments. And I think a lot of us go in search of them, you know, or think it's the norm. And so I would say I think it's rare because both parties have to be open. And they're you know, which is just like really wanting to meet. Well, yeah. And I think it takes time. But like, I think it can also be rare when we catch the moment of like, Oh, I feel that that's left I feel a sense of I'm not carrying that anymore, because I don't know about you. But when people to tell me to forgive people, I want to punch them in the face. Oh, fully. I don't hold forgive No, thank you

oh, and right before my dad came for the weekend, and as you know, and right before he came like this thing happens to me almost every time where days before all my anxiety is like really high. And I won't fully name it, but I will. And you know, my dad's changed a lot over the years. And I A lot of times don't like give him credit. Because I'm just still really angry. And he Milo loves him like we are going to pick him up. And Milo's like, Jeep was my best friend. And I'm like, first of all, I'm a restaurant. But they really, really have such a close connection. And I know my dad loves me, and I know my dad cares, and I just tries to be really present. He says something sometimes that I'm like, do you want to put that back in your mouth? Or what? You're driving and he goes, he's asking me he was trying were I was telling him I might want to have another baby blah, blah. And I was like, he was referring to Crohn's. But what he said was like, Are you physically what did he say? He was like, something like, are you physically able? Or like, I'm like, what, like, am I functioning enough to have like, dead? What are you trying to say? But I think that I've made you really nervous sometimes. And I don't mean to and I don't want to like apologize for being myself. But I do think that I can be really cold when I'm hurt. And instead of getting more hurt. I just turn off my emotions, seemingly. And it's cold. And I know that it's cold and I don't have a doorway, and I'm not like I'm not welcoming. I'm not like and I don't want to be that way. And I also don't want to carry the stress in my body. Like, I dropped him off. And I always end up feeling bad. And I always am like, I should have been more like, open or I should be over this by now. It's like what are you going to do? You can't change the past. I'm working on it, but it's really difficult to let stuff fully go.

Yeah, it is.

How did you forgive your dad?

Well, I mean, like I said, it was really convenient of him to die. You know? Because, I mean, the story ends you know what I mean? I don't have any more hurt after 16 You know, so I only have 16 years of shit. I I have to sift through that that's not as hard. You know, because most of us have big stuff we have, you know, big T little T, which I think they've gotten rid of in regards to trauma. But for the sake of this conversation, let's, let's say that we have big traumas and little traumas, you know, with our parents and stuff. Like, I don't, I don't have a lifetime of it, you know what I mean? So I do think that that makes it easier in the sense of my dad didn't keep repeating things that kept hitting those same wounds, like my wounds only have so many layers. And I think it more became that I just did have to accept that also, like, I think sometimes, like, what can be good, and I do think we have to trust. Like, it's like anything where you can know you need to do it, you can, no, you need to go for physical every year, but like, you have to get there in your own time, you know, I think I really felt a sense of I could carry this stuff in regards to my dad about as like alcoholism, the fact that like, he never really dealt with a lot of his mental health kind of stuff. He was a hugely not present parent or slash person, to be honest, you know, lots of stuff. Or I can take the lesson, that he also taught me that a lot of people were the unlovable are incredibly flawed and complicated. You know, which one actually serves me which one feels better in my body, you know, like carrying the hate with someone who literally could just be like, eating pie all day in heaven. For all I know, like, he's having the best of the time, like, going to the ghost beach, and I'm the one here on Earth, poisoning my life with anger. You know, like, I think about that sometimes, too, in terms of, you know, we talked about this a bit and resentment, but like, I think the same thing of withholding forgiveness is is is similar to resentment in terms of it being this thing that poisons you know, so I think I started to see in my 20s I also think grief, in some ways made it tricky, because I think a lot of my anger was dismissed, because the attitude was like, well, he died. So he, like, paid the final, like, he paid the ultimate price. So like, why even be mad at him? And I was like, Excuse me, I do not see how the two are related, you know, like, and I think I did realize that that like, more and more time was going to go by, it was almost gonna get, I mean, like, I'm not saying that this is a healthy or like, cool take to have on this. But I also thought, like, it was gonna get, like, more and more, like, embarrassing for me to still be like, my dad was an alcoholic, you know, like, and I hadn't processed or dealt with it. And I realized a huge barrier to that was forgiving. I had to forgive. I had to be like, Yeah, that sucks. And, and that is kind of, like facing the biggest fear we all have in that we all have to sort of bank on people and hope that they don't hurt us. Like, that is the scariest thing about life. You know, like, both my parents I've had, I've had some stuff I've had to revisit with my mom recently, especially in regards to my father's alcoholism, with me being kind of like, why did you stay? It got pretty bad at points, you know? And it was confusing, because, you know, my dad made pretty good money. So it like wasn't like what you would see in the movies, you know, like, I wasn't wanting for any resources, I went to school, my mom was, was very good at like, being a mom in regards to like, everything washed dinner on the table, you know, like, I have the semblance of normality, but then we kind of couldn't be left alone with my dad without him getting drunk, you know? And like, he would sort of us anytime my mom, you know, like had an obligation or just went out to dinner or anything to get drunk and had various times, I mean, just some, some other stuff. And I don't, I think when I am withholding forgiveness that would serve me, I become very moralistic and judgmental as well. And that also made it very difficult to have conversations with my mom, I think that would have benefited me. And it's only been more recently after I validated a lot of my own experience of like, we didn't have to be unhoused and like resource scarce in order for this to be valid or rough or affected you. You know, like, I remember until we moved to England like feeling kind of scared all the time. I'm intense all the time. Like, I can't deny the effect that had on me. And I can't deny the fact that like, my mom, I think was doing everything within her power to like, keep the wheels on that it made her not a bit not available. And my dad because he was an addict was not available. So that really fucked me up like that kind of like emotional neglect. And I had to do a lot in therapy in terms of learning, I think to validate it and not need my mom to also validate it or back it up, that now we're having conversations that are very different. And she's even asking me different things. She's like, would it have been better for you if I had divorced him? And I'm like, I don't? I mean, probably not. I mean, I think I would have had different problems, you know, oh, my God, if they had gotten divorced, that would have been the worst for me, in the sense of I would have felt guilty. Like, I feel guilty. Even with my mom, I feel guilty, even with my dad, you know, like, it would have been a whole different source of problems, you know, but I think for me, what I wanted from my mom, in order to forgive her was the acknowledgement of like, you're right. And now that we're talking about it, I should have done things differently. It didn't feel that way in it, you know, and she had previously been so defensive and dismissive. I think it stoped my anger, you know, and, for me, I think, you know, like, I kept wanting to come and my mom, I have to give her a lot of credit. Like, she's very open with me. There's a lot I can ask her about, there's a lot she'll discuss with me, she gives me so much latitude, rather than telling me like, listen, I was doing the best I can fuck off. You know, like, when I think about she was 44 When my dad died, three years older than I am now. I'm like, wow, like, how good a job could I do? I don't know, I'd make some mistakes, I'd probably fucked some kids up to you know, it's helped me, like therapy helped me learn how to extend that grace and empathy. And I think forgiveness to to get it out of my bod. Without it constantly feeling like, I think it's like such a thing for me is has been feeling dismissed. So I finally was able to find some ways, I think, to see it and validate it myself to then forgive the other. You know, when I look at the context of my dad, he was born 1946. So he's very much a boomer. My grandfather was in the military. My grandmother walks out when my dad's seven. My father has a success of secession of like kind of evil stepmothers, he's physically abused. A lot of alcoholism in the house, he basically sort of runs away and goes to the Naval Academy to get out of the house, you know, like, how was that person gonna be this incredible parent, you know, like, not that that makes it okay. But I think sometimes, too, like, I hate when people were like, they were doing the best they could like, I hate all those platitudes. But I think sometimes when you arrive at them for yourself, in the context of the situation, you're like, if I really accept this person for who they were, then I have to forgive this. Like, there's no way that like, my dad would know role model of how to be a parent, my dad would know mental health, you know, focus or anything like, how's he going to do the work he needs to do? How's that going to happen? You know, like, it's just not so sometimes too. I would say what helps me with forgiveness what's helped me Forgive my dad is also like context. And just thinking of it was the 80s it's a different time. My dad was also like the sole breadwinner. So he feels a lot of pressure to make money. So I mean, my dad probably just to work on his mental health and some of the stuff in the alcoholism would probably have needed to like go to rehab, like be somewhere for a while. He was pretty high flying at Arthur Andersen, like that, that would have killed his career. Like, I think as an adult, too. I better understand it. Like he just didn't feel. I mean, he had a massive heart attack that destroyed 30% of his heart and went back to work in two weeks, which is insane, you know? Yeah. Like, that's who you're dealing with, you know what I mean? That it's just like, I don't know, I think sometimes it's, it doesn't make it okay. But sometimes, for me, what helps me is if I really think about the person, and don't personalize it, man, I think that's a gift that therapy has given me like, my dad failed me like by default, but mostly he failed himself. And I was a casualty of that,

right? Totally. I try to visualize people as children. Because really,

yeah, it's interesting. It doesn't work for me. I've heard this, how does that help you?

Because there's such an innocence there. And like, you know, I know that my dad was my dad had a pretty good life. But at the same time, my grandfather, you know, escaped Czechoslovakia and was like, really, really hard on him. And then, you know, just like, I don't that, like you said, it was such a different time. And I think emotionally, he was, like, he is a very sensitive person. And there was, I don't think a lot of space for that, at least in in way, certain ways. And, you know, there's a bunch of stuff. So, but then part of me is also like, it wasn't that bad, which I can't say because I wasn't there. And also, though, when I do see him as a kid, I just feel like anybody really, it's just like, I don't want to feel pity, like that's a huge, that's a huge thing I've had to get over with specifically with him because I, I never used to be mad at my dad for years and years and years, I was not mad I, I pitied him, I was either protecting him or pitting him. And then I, like I just recently got to anger a couple years ago. So one, once I got there, I was like, I'm gonna hang out here for a little while, because I feel like it took me a bit to get here and I'm pissed. I'm less angry now. And more like, how do I just forgive, like, for real on all of these different levels, so that I can move out of this place of holding and not. My thing is like, if I don't, if I'm not forgiving someone, or if I'm feeling like they've hurt me, or I've, you know, it's not about me being a victim. It's just like you said, I don't want to get hurt again. And so I protect myself, like I think most of us do. And my way is through being really cold and distant, which doesn't feel good for me, because it's not my natural state of being.

Yeah, well, I mean, essentially, you're just being defensive. You know, like, whatever. Yeah, totally. Yeah. However, that shakes out, but your scalp but your, your reaction is to be different, which makes sense. I was thinking about that, too. In terms of prepping for this episode, like, you know, like, the relationship between link forgiving and like, withholding.

Hmm, yeah. And I think like on that.

Yeah. But I think often well, I've been thinking, I've been like reading all this stuff, watching all these documentaries, and I gotta stop. I'm just having too many thoughts. And I keep feeling about like, I just, you know, like, I'm a 19 year old and like a philosophy course. It's like, whoa, you know? And I've, like, gone. I've like Gone Home for Christmas. And I'm like, Have you

learned? Have you guys heard of feminism? It taught

100% 100%. I have. Luckily I'm doing it mostly only in my own brand. I

wanted to ask my mom and your friend about like a Simone de Beauvoir book, and they were like, we've been to her house in Paris. I was like, Oh, I was just schooled. Okay. All right. Yeah, I read her book and philosophy class.

Yeah, it's like, Oh, yeah. Well, I read a book. But I've been thinking about power. And I've been, you know, like, and I read I mean, at this point, Lord, cowboy, and if USC is gonna, like take out an order of protection, because I talk about her so much, and reference how much I love her work as much. But she was talking sort of like, really about fear and like, what are like, kind of what is fear about like, the fear of like, giving too much or like, being made a fool of she was talking about in the context, I think of like, dating and stuff. And I think about forgiveness and withholding sort of similar as like, do like, for me, like so often with my dad, it was like, I wasn't allowed to sort of have feelings because it's like, he had a bad childhood he like so he's doing the best he can or he didn't have a role model. So it was like, I don't know about you, but like when I express upset about something if someone immediately meets me with an excuse as to like, why they're allowed to be that way. It makes me crazy

and there's no space for for you know what, there wasn't any space for for me and there still really isn't that much. Although there is more now these days, especially with my dad my mom is is a harder nut to crack. But I think it's because she's just so scared to do something wrong that she just can't like, I'm like, I'm not saying they're about like, every time I talk to my mom about something or I shouldn't say every time that's I don't like that. Often when I speak to my mom about something that has hurt me or he's currently hurting me. She's like, well, I did the best thing I can like Sorry, think I'm a bad mom. And I'm like,

oh, that pattern of defensiveness makes me insane. My mom was like that for a long time. Because change is possible,

I hope so. It just shuts me immediately down. And I'm like, nobody. Nobody's saying that. Like, I do understand that. And I'm starting to have more and more empathy for humans in general, although, I just think I don't like like most people, and I wonder how people like you definitely don't.

I mean, like, what, like, this is why I'm the socially slutty or one of us really know. And I don't wish harm on them.

I want to clear I'm not like fuck you die. But no, there's no meaning behind it. I

don't think it's like a judge. I

don't like most people. I just don't. And I and I'm like, is that? Am I just a shitty? Like, do I just know, I just think we just really are not? I don't know, I don't think it's a protective thing. I really don't I just am not. I'm not interested in like, 90% of the population?

Well, I mean, I equate it to because my mom and brother are a lot more like you have just like, way more. I think of it as just being like, I don't know, like discerning or like, yeah, or particular, like, yeah, I don't think there's like a judgment or a morality thing to it. I just think it's like, it's like chemistry, you know, whereas, like, I love how David stairs talks about like, and his book signings are like, he's, you know, when I saw him at King's theatre, you know, he's like, talking to the crowd, as if he's talking to one person, you know, and he can kind of find anything interesting. And like, I identify a little bit that way of like, you could be the most boring person in the world. But you might say something that delights my brain, you know, like, I'm always open to that, where you're like, No, you're like, This person has been boring, and therefore I am not interested. It's just like a different thing.

It's totally chemistry. But it's also like, Yeah, I think if I give, I think most of my fears, or maybe it's not fears, but one of my hesitation, is that part of my hesitation is that if I engage with somebody with like, the little energy that I have, and like, I'm setting myself up a little bit for failure, and I also don't want to be judging people, like, this thing has been happening to me lately, where people keep intentionally forgetting, like, who I am, like, the last week, it happened again today. And I was like, Is this because like, you just don't like, I don't want to be friends with you. So like, don't worry about that. But is it because you like feel morally superior? Or just like you feel threatened? Like, it's just so bizarre, and I find myself being so annoyed with like, human behavior, that I'm like, I don't want to like stack up a bunch of like, Shit, I have to forget, like, I'd rather just not fucking engage with you to begin with.

Well, I mean, I think you. I've said this to you before. I'll say it again. I think you give people a lot more credit than they deserve.

Oh, thanks. I think that's nice, right? Yeah, yeah,

that I think you waste your own time and energy. Yes. Wandering versus just going. They gave me information about them. And it's not possible to do.

I do, like, Yeah, I can't do that. How do you do that? I'm like, was it this? Was it that? Why? Why could it be like, Why are humans I think, because I'm endlessly fascinated with human beings, which is why I do what I do.

But I just, it's like, if Okay, so if you found out that their answer was like, I want to be your friend and like, felt like you like rebuffed me once or something. So now I ignore you. Like, would it help? You know, you'd be like, What the fuck grow up? You know, like, I think that also helped me like my therapist would be like, will say you didn't know, you know, like, because I think for me with dating all the time, I would want to be like, I want to know why they don't want to go on a second date. Like, I don't either, but why don't they want to go and she's like, that information is not, it's not going to help you like, it doesn't matter. It's not someone staying in your life. So it has no relevance to you. And and I had to learn like, listening to the haters or listening like it just it's never gonna get you anything, but I don't I don't know why I would love to know why as human beings. We do. We do want to know, like, is it just our inherent curiosity? Yeah. Is it voyeurism? Is it insecurity? Like, is it the pursuit of perfection? We think, if we know,

you know, like, 1,000% definitely all of the above for me personally, and I think for a lot of people, but the perfection thing feels very personal. Because this is where

my inner snob comes out where I'll be like, I wouldn't even care what your standards were anyway, so Oh, I just value mine over yours. So like, even if I listened to your note, I don't think it would get me closer to perfection. It's harder, like when it's someone I maybe admire or respect or, you know, like, then it's harder for me to like, do my due, you know, dismissal protocol in my head, I

just miss all protocol. So, how important do you think processing anger is before forgiveness? Or can you do it at the same time,

I think you can do it at the same time, because I think it's necessary to feel the anger to really acknowledge in name, what the harm was, you know, but the problem is, is that anger can, it's as bad as anger feels anger also feels really good. It's empowering, you feel it's referred to as a secondary emotion. Because anger is often something is often covering up something else. So I think what we want to avoid is when we're staying in anger, to mask other things we feel that would allow us to process the hurt, you know, anger is often sort of masking hurt, sadness, you know, and none of us want to feel that, you know, like, even if you're the most emo of EMO as babies, like, we don't really want to feel it. So we use all this other shit that makes us feel better or more empowered, or stronger, and anger or something like that, you know, like, Oh, my God, I used to, like, love the thrill of getting really riled up about something and feeling like I could go into battle, you know, because it's like, you feel so strong, you know. And so I think some of the stuff where we felt really disempowered, disregarded, dismissed, you know, like, I think, like, that's when we stand the anger and the withholding, because we think it's going to give that back to us, you know, like, that's going to make us feel more powerful. Like, that's going to make us feel, you know, like, I'm not gonna get hurt in this way again, because, like, you know, I've got this anger now to protect me. And it's like, I just don't

know. And I really, really, really stops us from, you know, being in relationship with other people in ourselves in a way that we're truly, always being called to do, like, opening. You know, our hearts is not easy. It's always a risk no matter what. Yeah, and but we have to you, there's so many people that I talk to you, and I know you do, too, that are like, I want this, I want that, but like don't really necessarily want to put themselves out there or are, you know, kind of looping on something. We've all done it. Or not forgiving someone from your past or not forgiving yourself, right? A huge piece of this is forgiveness, self forgiveness. And that was really hard for me for a long time is and I think it is for most people to be like, You know what? I'm not perfect. I can't be perfect. So what are the things that I need to forgive myself for? There was a moment the other day where I came home and way Zealand First of all, be like, Oh, my, you probably do. I'm like, Oh, God, was this bad? Did I that that bad? I saw this woman and she were talking about the studio that I used to work for. And I was like, I don't fuck with them anymore. And I was like, What am I like, maybe didn't need to say that. I'm like, does that mean like, I honestly didn't know. They didn't feel mean, it didn't feel nice, but I was just like, I don't want to be associated with them. They're like, antivax wackadoodles. And I'm just like, No, I don't like fuck with them. But then I really felt like bad about it. And I had to number one, forgive myself. Because I don't want to gossip and I don't want to be someone who talks negatively, especially in like, I live in a fucking small town. Like, I don't want that drama. And I don't want it even if I lived in a big city again. But I messaged the woman and I was like, Hey, I sure like you didn't think anything of it. But I just want to let you know, like, I don't have any ill feelings. I just don't want to be associated and I wanted to just kind of clear up like, I'm not I don't want to speak negatively about them or anybody. But I just felt like I really had to do that because I and and forgive myself in the process because it didn't feel nice

yeah, I think self forgiveness is is really hard. I think I think forgiving yourself. I mean, it's possible I had to really learn that first it when I when I think about it, because I mean I'm not gonna lie in any kind of way. I feel very new to forgiveness, I don't really think I was making any kind of practice of it until probably like 10 years ago, you know, like, maybe here or there or begrudgingly, I was like giving some forgiveness. I also like, I like for me like things, I don't feel. How am I trying to articulate this? I don't always feel like I have a say, you know, where it's like, you can do all the things, you can do all the steps and you're like, if I ask, you know, myself, in my heart of hearts, have I forgiven this? I'm like, No, I still mad, you know, are like, totally not. Yep, edge. Now, yeah. But you know, and like, I had, I wonder sometimes, like, you know, I'm so tired of people saying, practice, but is that the practice? Yeah, do we have to return to the practice of forgiving, but I think

we'd cross play. It's a process. It's not linear. So it's, it's a practice, it's, you know, seven steps to forgiveness when I go ahead.

I think for, it's like, I'll get riled up about something, or I keep confusing the pandemic, with wasting my life. So as I started to fall asleep, it like it at night sometimes, or, I've been having this cool thing in the morning when my anxiety will spike. And when I started to wrestle, and Baby Anna flutters her eyes, and my anxiety is like, good or defenses are down, let's make her question every decision of her life. Yeah, it doesn't happen to be so much at night. So it's been happening in the morning, and I was talking to my therapist, and I was like, is everybody wondering if they've wasted their lives? Like, is that a pandemic thing? And she was like, chill question. And yes, like, a lot of people, like, a lot of us are having a hard time. Like, not thinking we were just like on walkabout for two years, you know, that we act like we're having a hard time sort of, like sorting all of that out, you know, and I'll get really riled up and be like, Why did I change my career then? Or why did I do that? Or I chose poorly. I chose this and I should have chosen that, you know, like, I'll do all of that. And I'm like, what? Good? Is any of this right now? Like, how does any of this help you? You know, and the only thing I can really glean from it is like, you have to forgive yourself. In order to figure out like, what does this mean? So what do you want? Now, when I went to Delphi, I had to do a forgiveness exercise. And we had to go around to every single person and say, like, I forgive you. And then like, they forgave us. And at first, I was like, I roll whatevs. I haven't harmed these people. I'm good. You know, I went into it. Very arrogant, very hot, was like, I'll be through everybody in two minutes. Like, I'm gonna, like, crush this forgiveness, nope, nope, was incredibly difficult. And triggering was very difficult was really, really humbling and powerful. And it showed me that so much of my resistance to forgiving others is really about forgiving myself, that I have a real fear of like, if you forgive, then it's gonna like all fall to shit. You know, like, if you forgive yourself, well, then you're like, never gonna wake up and you're just gonna watch Netflix and eat candy all day or something like, I'm just I just think I'm gonna, like, lose all control maybe or something. I don't know, that I or become like, incredibly complacent. There's something about forgiveness and complacency for me that those wires are crossed. But a big thing at Delphi was they really reinforced to ask because I was doing the in depth channeling program. So it wasn't a forgiveness program. But it was about channeling. And there's, there's a big thing, they kept reinforcing to us. It was like, If you had known better, you would have done better if you had known better, you would have decided better, you know, like, in terms of not always thinking, you know, not always looking back in a way and this way of sort of, I think that's when I also started to forgive a lot and to be like, finding a different way of that, you know, they were doing the best they can. That's not helpful. But I do think like, I do trust if my dad had known that at 41. I'm still struggling with things he did. When I was eight. I think he would have made different decisions.

Yeah, I think that most people do Given the opportunity and space would not do harm, you know, actively and knowingly. So I do think there that's part of having empathy and understanding that, you know, everyone, like you said, it's so cliche and annoying, but like, everyone's doing the best that they can, for the most part, some people are just straight up, like shit. But there are actually seven steps according to wherever this article is, from, what is this article from, I have to find it, what the name is, because I'm just looking at a piece of paper. But step one, acknowledge the hurt often difficult. Yeah, Siddur, consider how the hurt and pain has affected you. Except that you can't change the past big one. Determine whether or not you will forgive because and I love that actually, when I looked when I was looking up forgiveness and, and stuff, it was like, it's not a feeling it's a choice. And yeah, and I agree, so to why it is a choice, and it's a choice, you have to keep making over and fucking over and fucking over again, that's empowering and also annoying, because nobody, because most 99.9% of the forgiveness we give is going to come without an apology. So yeah, you we have to, you know, really put ourselves in a position of okay, do I want to carry this with me? Forever? Do I want to look at the world through this lens, I think that's a huge part of it for me is like I forgive human beings in general, because I don't want to see the world. The way I see it, when I don't forgive people when I go out angry, or when I like, really sad about the just the decisions that people make. And, and I see it with Milo, like, just as such a little boy, when he sees something on a movie, or when he finds out like today we're watching lady in the tramp old school. And he's like, there was a part where the, they're taking one of the dogs in the pound, kill them. And he's like, where to take in. And I was like, they're taking him to kill him. And he's like, Well, and his whole face was just like, why would somebody do that? And he's like, why? And that's how I feel on a daily basis. And I think most people who are empathetic feel that way. Like, why why? Why are we making these choices? Why are horrible why horrible things keep happening? Why, why, why, why, why? And I have to decide moment to moment, if I want to see the world that way. And just constantly be bogged down with wondering why people make awful decisions or hurt people, or not necessarily forgiving, but I'm trying to move toward that. So I can like breathe and enjoy some of my life and not just be in the shit all the time. So after determined it's repair, learn. And then last step is forgive. Repair, I think is is a difficult one because that is when you need the other party

Yeah, well, I think I Deeley you have the other party. But repair is something I've been really thinking about a lot, because I've been thinking about how little it was modeled for me. And it's something I've really had to learn as an adult how to repair things, you know, like repair after fracture, you know, and I think we're pairing can also like, I think you can do it on your your own. I think I've done a lot to repair my relationship with my dad, like on my own, you know, it can be done. But if you I think most of us, like it didn't even occur to me until a couple months ago. How little how little repair had been modeled for me how little of it I've seen, you know, or experience like you and I have talked about in several friendships where we've been like, hey, this didn't feel so good. And they were like bye bye forever, you know, like, you know, like you do need I guess it's like you need repair to maybe stay in relationship with people link but I don't know that you have to have the other person but like, repairing general I feel like we should talk about at some point because I just, I didn't it like I feel You like so often like with things that are big realizations? It's like, sounds so silly when you say it out loud. But it's like, really not until a couple months ago that I was like, oh, yeah, I don't really know how to repair stuff or really know how that works, because I've experienced so little of it, you know? Yeah. And

I agree, I don't think you always need the other person. But ideally, you have them or have some sort of, and you can, you can, I don't know, if you do talk to your dad, but like, I imagine, yeah,

I do do sometimes. Yeah, I go in and out of it, to be honest. Yeah, I

think that, you know, repair is, is for is for us. Like, obviously, it's everything that Yeah, and I don't mean that like this. It can't all be for selfish reasons. But I do think that we, there has to be like a motivation to forgive. Right. And I think often people don't forgive others, because they don't really, truly sit with like to, do they feel like they not like are worse, feeling better, but But do they think it's possible to feel better? I think a lot of people just think that this is the way it is, you know, that's how most people operate. Like, it is what it is, this is the way life goes. And this is how I'm going to feel and, and it doesn't have to be like that, like, you don't have to carry on the way you always have. Or you know, you like just because I've been historically triggered and anger is like the first emotion I reach for I'm comfortable with doesn't mean that like, that's who I am. It's just something that I've, you know, done and something that I've reached for because it's comfortable or feels comfortable. But like, yeah, when I forgive myself for being a absolute fucking lunatic at points in my life, like, out of control, I can see something deeper, where it's like, you're sad, and you felt abandoned, and you felt confused and scared, and like anger was a way to feel like you're protecting yourself.

Well, they, yeah, well, it's the age old, like how you felt was valid, but what you were doing with it was not, you know, like you weren't entitled to be wild, you know, I was like, it's, it's that age old, like, I'm gonna empathize with myself because I get why you were doing it. But what you were doing wasn't the coolest, like, that's where I think the forgiveness has to come in the self forgiveness has to come in, I think also to repair can look different, you know, like, it doesn't have to be, you know, like brokering a peace treaty, it can be like giving yourself distance, you know, it can be allowing your, your reaction and being like, you know, what, for me able me to be able to repair this relationship with you, like, I need to space from you, you know, and those sorts of things as well, I think, repair, like, I think we get shown so few examples of these things, or successful examples that it's like, we all sometimes get hung up on it being done. Like, as if we were in a textbook, you know, like, I will say this, they will say that, and like, that was a successful forgiveness. And it's like, I don't know that you have to be as strict or literal, or we don't have to be as strict or literal with ourselves that sometimes it's like, I think for me, I asked myself sometimes with my own anger, am I really angry? Or am I using this to stay in something? You know, am I using this to feed narratives? Am I really angry at that friend? Or am I angry that her action, you know, touched on something else that historically, is not the easiest for me, you know? Like, what am I actually mad about? That? That helps me as well sometimes, and I can go like, Oh, it would be really tempting, you know, like, oh, to use this flaking on me to fuel my abandonment stuff. And no one shows up for me and hunger does online. Or I can just remember that this person's life is really crazy right now. And this fell through the cracks. You know, like, it can be so tempting to feed those old narratives. But like, that's what I start to feel now as an adult more and more suffocated by it's like you're in your 20s and 30s. I think feeding those stories feels good. And like, I don't know, it's like, when you're using a Q tip in your ear, and you like get that spot where you're like, Oh, I feel so good. You know, like, it's not really like it's but but it is, you know, it's like feeding those stories of like, men leave and did it did it like it feels so good? Because I think you're trying to make sense of the world. So collecting this data feels reassuring, like I'm creating this accurate picture. And then you realize, like, it's a little more complicated than that. Yeah, you know, like, I have agency and choice, even though I'm forgetting that I'm also engaging with these people, because it's familiar to me. Like, I also have my own stuff that's really rude. The whole point is, is they're bad, you know, and then you start realizing, like, oh, like seeking out all this data, seeking out all these experiences that just feeds these stories, like, doesn't feel good. You know, it was interesting to hear what the physical effects of long term lack of forgiveness and chronic anger is, because I could totally see that, you know, Mike, I could see how that would become corrosive in your body. And I think we're all I think a lot about bitterness right now, because I feel like, as a 40, something year old woman in New York, I'm on the threshold of bitterness of deciding, like, you know, like, do you want to be bitter or not? And I don't, because I think when you're bitter, you just send into like, a well, that is unreachable, like, no one wants to be around anyone who's been out, regardless of how like justified your bitter bitterness is. And I think that that's something I started to feel about some of my anger were godless of how justified it is, it doesn't feel good. In your body, it doesn't feel good when you make choices from that place, you know. So it's interesting to hear that it has like, literally, they've literally seen a correlation between that and physical effects. Yes, so

in closing, I would offer, do it, if you choose to forgive or maybe asking ourselves, like, first of all, we feel we need to forgive or we want to forgive not need out of like some obligation, but who's sitting with us, and we don't, that we don't want, right, but also, calling back our energies, something I talked about a lot and is so important, not in a way of like, you have to match that person, whatever, if they're not thinking of you, you don't need to think about them. But I can guarantee that most of the people that we're holding on to are not spending that much time or energy on us. And snow, it would benefit us greatly to pull that away from that person. And even if that's like, I'm not going to, I'm going to try not to think about them so much, I'm going to try not to assign so much power and influence to this situation, or this person, I'm going to set them free so that I can feel a little bit less weighed down. And that has to happen, I think bit by bit depending on how much you know how, like egregious the offense However, sometimes people do little shit that really sticks in and like pokes at something that is old. And then it's really easy to project a lot of that onto that person. And, and, like you said, Feed the narrative. So I would just I like to write things down or talk things out often. So I don't have a lot of time to write things down focus that way. But I like to talk about, like, what is making me sad about this? Am I angry? Why am I angry? And also like, can I release some of it and how, you know, we all have different ways of letting go. But it doesn't happen in one fell swoop. It has to happen piece by piece.

Yeah. And I think sometimes you have to fake it until you make it. You know, like, I think sometimes if you you're like, I am making the choice to forgive this person. Like, it doesn't happen by magic. It doesn't happen overnight. So if you still feel some feelings, I think it's like, you know, real life meditation where you have to keep leading yourself back to, I am making the choice to do this and and see what that looks like. Like, for me something I try to do that I find helpful. When I don't know whether or not I'm ready to forgive or I'm not sure where I'm at, is I tasked myself to really, really try to show up and interact with the person in the present. And try to almost act like it's the first time I'm meeting them or whatever. And that helps me sometimes figure out like, what I need, you know, like, do I need to forgive? Do I need to, you know, reset boundaries. Sometimes if I'll just be like, I'm not going to feed the past or I'm not going to keep coming back to that thing they did, you know, 15 years ago. I'm going to like try today you know, just to be interact and show up in the present with them. And sometimes that helps We get clarity that helps me figure out what I need to do next. I love that.

Well, thanks for. Thanks for hanging with us guys. We'll, we'll talk to you next time.

Bye.

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1:00:16

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