[00:00:00] Hannah: Hi, and welcome to the awfully quiet podcast. Today's guest is someone whose story truly inspired me. And Muna Tala is an entrepreneur coach and communication strategist with a career path. That is nothing short of remarkable. She started out as what she lovingly calls an enthusiastic introvert working as a retail assistant.

And over the next 17 years rose to become the general manager in the UK. And eventually the head of global communications for Christian Louboutin. Yes, the legendary brand with the red souls today and is dedicated to helping individuals and purpose driven brands craft authentic stories and connect deeply with their audiences through her mindful approach to communication.

And we're really getting a taste of that. In our conversation, Anne shares real and raw experiences of working in an extroverted industry as an introvert, tips for embracing and communicating your personal value, and how intentional storytelling can create lasting impact. Anne's perspective is so refreshing and her tips about speaking up in meetings, storytelling, leadership, and human connection are full of heart and truthfully something I want everyone listening to this show apply to their careers.

I know I will. If you love this conversation, please share it with someone who could benefit from it too. And if you feel extra generous, leave a five star rating wherever you listen. It helps more introverts find value pack conversations like this one. Now, without further ado, let's get into it. All right. And well, thank you so much for joining me today and welcome to the awfully quiet podcast.

[00:01:57] Anne: I'm so happy to be here and I'm so happy to be seeing you again.

[00:02:01] Hannah: Yes, it's lovely to connect. And it's one of those connections that came through a podcast interview that you watched or, or listen to more so and, reached out. So that has been like lovely synchronicity and I, love that you've reached out.

[00:02:17] Anne: it's the first time that I reach out, to be honest. I felt like there was something so interesting and so refreshing about the way you were going about speaking to awfully quiet personas to, to help them flourish that I, it just, yeah, it moved something in me that, that it moved me to action.

[00:02:42] Hannah: I love that. And this is actually where I want to start. It's like with some of the quiet traits that sometimes get underestimated. I want to ask you about a quiet trait that you have. Like, is there anything that you can think of that is almost like a quiet quality about yourself that has helped you in any way in your career or that you draw from?

[00:03:07] Anne: think it's, I think I pay a lot of attention to my environment. I, I think I said to you before that I'm an enthusiastic introvert. And so depending on who I'm surrounded by, I may get easily misunderstood as an extrovert. But in many situations, I spend a lot of time observing and listening. And I think that this is a superpower because I guess I'm, I'm more aware of dynamics, of tone of body language than most people I know, perhaps because I have this sort of, ingrained sense of, you know, scanning for, for what's going on around me.

And I think listening is, is one of the best things that we can do. And I think that is a trait that many introverts can really, dig into. When you don't feel comfortable talking, offer a question and listen, truly listen.

[00:04:17] Hannah: love that. And I think, you know, as a communications expert that you are, I'm jumping a little bit ahead. I actually didn't want to want to go there yet. But now that you mentioned listening, as part of communication, how do you find the right balance between.

listening in a conversation and also weighing in on the conversation and actually speaking up. Is there any way, is there anything that has helped you as an introvert, especially working in PR communications?

[00:04:47] Anne: That's a good question. The example that comes to mind is when I conduct, let's say, deep dive sessions or when I'm when I'm approached by someone and we sit down for the first time to explore whether or not we want to, to work together, whether, whether I'm the right person to support them.

[00:05:10] Hannah: That

[00:05:11] Anne: I think that's where I try to really bring in the listening as a superpower.

But if there's more than one person around the table, I try to establish control when it veers off track, which happens very quickly. If there's more than one senior leader. around the table. I have one example that's, that's coming back to mind in particular. And so I think that in order to be able to weigh in, one has to understand what we're weighing in for, what's the objective.

So if you can have a moment of You know, intention setting before you step into a big meeting or into a big conversation and say, what's important here? What is, what am I trying to establish? What's the information I'm looking for? What is the best possible outcome? And once you have that information, the idea is to also go back in and say, okay, what's my deepest intention for this, for this conversation, for this meeting.

Often I find that at surface level, it's more transactional. We want to get something done. We want to get something out of someone. But generally, if you ask yourself something deeper, you'll realize that you want to participate in success. You want to create a positive atmosphere. You want to be able to help people collaborate.

That tends to be deeper, juicier values underneath. So if you walk into a meeting, having 60 seconds of reflection. Then it helps you stay on track. And meaning you'll be able to, you'll feel the motivation to weigh in if you realize that what you care about is unlikely to happen unless you do something about it.

[00:07:08] Hannah: answer so much because it takes away a lot of the pressure on speaking up for the sake of Just for the sake of making sure that you have said something, it's almost like it's not that tick in the box. It's not just like, oh, I need to say something so that I have said something and contributed to this meeting in any way, which can put so much pressure.

But instead, it's almost like you, you're very intentional of what the outcome should be. And then you speak up. Because you won't achieve that outcome. It's for the purpose of that outcome. And it's not to put yourself in the spotlight. It's not to speak up for the sake of speaking up. I really like that.

[00:07:54] Anne: Yeah. I don't know that I've really ever spoken up just for the sake of it. And at least it doesn't feel like it was ever part of my personality. And I don't know if that's how you if you've ever felt the need to.

[00:08:06] Hannah: introverts get told to do in the workplace. It's like, you need to speak up more. You need to be a little louder in meetings. And so it's just a beautiful thing to become intentional about what it is that you're trying to achieve. And then it doesn't always need to mean that you do need to speak up.

You can also be steering the conversation in the right direction, asking the right questions. So, yeah.

[00:08:31] Anne: I find that much more powerful because speaking up for what? Just to add noise. I also find that over the course of studying, coaching and becoming a certified life and career coach, I have started using slightly different phrasing, which I now use as well when I'm consulting with clients, like what I'm hearing you say is.

And as opposed to, how dare you, or I don't agree, we could all start by checking for meaning before getting on a high, on our high horse. So if you're already unlikely to be loud, then you can use this interesting, slightly more padded way to get into the conversation by saying, and asking for clarification, saying, what I'm hearing you say is X, Y, Z, tell me more, am I correct?

[00:09:31] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:09:32] Anne: And then it language is so beautiful and it's just such a source of, Miscommunication as well. So checking for clarification is something that we can really easily do if we do take a backseat and pay attention and listen.

[00:09:47] Hannah: To me, that feels very authoritative, very powerful. It doesn't feel like. it doesn't feel fake or, you know, it doesn't come from a place of ego. It's just, you know, putting the spotlight on what needs to get done and not having the right conversation.

[00:10:03] Anne: You're totally right. And I think that the secret sauce there is because when you're listening, you're actually present. You're not in your head thinking about what you did wrong before, and you're not either traveling in the future thinking about what you're going to say next. If you let yourself, and this is a mindful type of exercise, if you let yourself be present, listen truly, take some notes if need be, pay attention to what's happening in the room, then it's likely that you're going to hear or feel what your contribution can be.

[00:10:38] Hannah: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:10:39] Anne: As opposed to letting the ego or the stress or the voices that you've heard, right? Influence you into another direction.

[00:10:51] Hannah: Yeah. Wonderful. I love that. Well, and what happened here is that we jumped into the deep end in this, which is something that can very easily happen with, among introverts. but I want to, you know, take a step back and talk about your career a little bit more because you have an impressive career in global comms, as a fashion exec.

And I want to get into. you know, some of your career journey and some of the decisions that you made along the way. So tell us a little bit more about, what your career looked like and how you then transitioned into, consulting and storytelling. I

[00:11:33] Anne: serendipitous. I cannot stress this more. I started So I'm not, so I'm going to tell you my story, but don't do what I did, because it doesn't mean it's a good example. So I did not finish university. I was not very interested by university because I was a singer and I worked on the side to pay for my apartment.

And I worked in retail because I had randomly one day found a job in retail and I had two really amazing experiences. lady bosses who were like two very tough mothers. One of them I called mom twice by mistake. I don't know whether she heard me. It was really embarrassing. One was Swiss German and one was French speaking and Jewish.

And they, they taught me how to run a store. I became the assistant manager and And they were incredibly precise. And they also had a really interesting work ethic. at the time they were owning two stores in Geneva and one in Zurich, and they were really serving the expat community with books and, DVDs in English language.

But they also would take orders, special orders on any title anywhere in the world, not even knowing whether they could get it. But the idea was, no is not an answer. Let's take the details and then let's do research. So it's really serendipitous that I started there because everybody else looked down on me a bit when everybody else was at uni, finishing fancy degrees, going skiing at the weekend.

I was working until 8pm on Saturdays. My skiing is not as good as it should be as a result. And then

[00:13:21] Hannah: have somebody living in Switzerland.

[00:13:23] Anne: I know, I know.but so inadvertently I discovered the superpower that is to just look after people and run a tight ship. We obviously, in order to make this a success, I had to really engage with the clientele.

I had to really partake into what they were, what we were renting and selling. So I watched about 3000 movies in the space of a couple of years. My English actually is mostly due to my. to both my singing and my habit of watching so many movies and TV series over that time. And so by the time I moved to London in the hope of pursuing a music career, I serendipitously got a suggestion from one of my flatmates.

I was renting the, a large cupboard in East London and, he said, you know, we have someone who may be going soon. And, you know, you should come and meet the team. Lo and behold, I started working there as a Saturday girl. couple of months later, I was a store manager. A couple of years later, I was employed directly by Christian Louboutin, because the store was a franchise and he and his business partner agreed that they would employ me directly despite working from.

The franchise in London. Christian wanted me to do PR first because that's what I was doing on the side. I was store manager, but doing the PR request because my boss was rarely there and I just had to facilitate because otherwise I ended up having to answer the phone calls of angry editors while trying to sell expensive shoes. And so his, He said, listen, meet Bruno and he'll decide if you can work for us or not. And so Bruno is a really wonderful older gentleman who wears a lot of tweed and little, you know, tortoiseshell rimmed glasses.an impressive figure, but introvert himself who blushes quite a lot when I speak to him.

We had lunch and he said, okay, I understand Christian likes you fine. And he said, You can do PR, but I want you to also do wholesale. And I was like, huh. I thought, if I can sell the shoes to a lady, I can sell the shoes to a buyer, right? Also, because it was a franchise. There was a very of an us versus them mentality between Paris and London, which I am sure had hindered whatever small effort had been undertaken to try and develop the brand.

So I thought, Oh, love a challenge. Gimme, gimme. And I started doing both and It was a really interesting perspective to have worked on the shop floor to knowing the clientele deeply knowledgeable about the fit of the shoes and close to Christian because back then it was a tiny, tiny little brand that we were working for and having all of this knowledge of how things get done, having the phone number of everyone, including the, the director of the factory.

I had the ability to make things move fast, but I was also Also telling stories, meaning. When I was seeing Vogue, I could say, listen, the best seller this season is this round toe nude leather pump. Everybody copied us after, but I feel a real strong responsibility for the, the worldwide craze of nude pumps because they elongate the leg.

And I was telling them the truth. I was not making anything up. I was giving them the details about what had happened over the course of the various buying appointments. And I was transmitting the truth. The information to Christian. I was transmitting it back to the store. I was passing it to the clients if I ever bumped into them.

So it was really, it was a storytelling circuit. And I think I could go back one step and say, I didn't speak to Christian for the first. six or nine months of being in, in working in the store because us versus them. And he had, you know, no particular reason to call. And one day he rang and nobody else was there.

And I spoke French. And so he said, and I started to tell him, you know, I said, well, so and so came in and he asked what's going on on the shoe floor. What did they like? I just, I told him the stories about what was going on. You know, there was one really amazing aristocratic type lady, very sweet and, but eccentric because she would only wear purple from head to toe.

That's a great person that you want to talk about to your boss when he's a shoe designer. Maybe it's going to make him make an extra pair of purple shoes in the collection next season. And so I feel like this. When we talk about flywheels, I think that this is part of what happened both in the company that was a part of and in my career.

So one area fed into another area and things started to accelerate. Eventually, as the business started growing and I was delighted to be part of that development, we hired a chief operating officer who had come from Mark Jacobs. He interviewed me. I had no idea what was going to happen, he offered me the role of general manager.

And so I had informally, informally, excuse me, been in charge of retail, looked after and supported the store manager in terms of HR, spoken to the lawyer, and so suddenly all of these things were consolidated under me. It was, however, a super intense time. So let's not make it sound like it was easy because I was thrown into the deep end and because the brand was small, the budgets were small because we never sought out.

external investment. It was all self funded. I had to hire junior people. And when you hire junior, it puts a lot of weight and a lot of, responsibilities on whoever is, is leading the team. And so that was not one of the best times of my career, even though it sounds like it was exciting and rewarding many ways.

And then fast, let's fast forward. So we don't stay too long on this. One thing led to another. Because I had this PR hat, and I had hired a junior PR manager, it so happens that when you're in an entrepreneurial company, it's likely that you'll get the responsibilities for whatever you're good at, even if it should be given to someone else because of where they are or who they are, if they're not very good at it.

It so happened that the French team, however great they were, are not great at English. And I also am very tech friendly. So I love a gadget. I love social media. And so the leadership in Paris decided to start to consolidate more responsibility under my team. I started to staff up and we started the Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter of the, of Christian Louboutin, AKA Louboutin World.

And they also started bringing in joint venture territories from Australia, Japan, Hong Kong. And it went bit by bit. And it led to the moment when the company was turning 20 and there was a lot of activities, a lot of things that needed coordinating and perhaps because I was listening and not necessarily jumping into the conversation all the time, I first started to pull in the notes.

get everything sorted so that we would know what to discuss next meeting or what were the action plans. And a few months in, the Christian and our chief operating officer offered me the global head of communications role, which was super tricky because that meant that I was suddenly going to become the boss of people who were my peers before that.

And also that meant giving me two jobs for the price of one, because they also knew that I I really enjoyed being general manager and so I accepted, which was good for some reasons, which I can mention later, and so I did the two jobs for two years. Which was very intense, but it led to a really amazing 20th anniversary.

And at some point I realized that I needed to stop this nonsense. And I was, I had enough of running retail of looking after wholesale or so I thought, and because we were about to launch beauty and the beauty company was based in New York city. I just thought, well, why not move to New York and just do global comms?

headquartered out of our offices and on 38th and 8th. And so that was the next adventure. It lasted three years. It was super enjoyable. It was very, very interesting,

have a very different seat at the table. And that's not something that I was enjoying. Whereas now working for my clients, I can pull in, you know, All of my expertise and use really just the depth of what I know to support their goals without having to leave a whole site, the whole side of my, my know how my, my skills on the side, because it doesn't suit the job role.

That was a bit long. I hope that's okay.

[00:23:27] Hannah: I love that. I, my eyes are sparking. That sounds like, you know, a career dream from like, you know, The Devil Wears Prada. And like, it's an impressive, impressive career trajectory. And one that I believe a lot of people will, will look at and be, Just an all of the steps that you've taken and you started out by saying you started very unconventionally not going, you know, the university route.

And yet you really worked your way up now. You don't strike me as somebody who is like. Loud and pushy and asking for the next best move and, you know, wanting to go higher, faster, further, but somehow it happened to you. And somehow you like always got that tap on the shoulder of like, here's your next opportunity.

Here's what we want you to do next. So your expertise, what you have been, you've been doing all the right things. And I wonder whether you can break down some of the things that have really worked for you in like getting noticed and, you know, getting people to come to you for a career opportunities.

[00:24:35] Anne: I'll tell you what. I was listening to one of your other episodes earlier today, and it's going to sound really simplistic. Okay. At the beginning, let's say when I was doing the, I was tasked with doing the whole sales, I would come to Paris for fashion week and the brand wasn't super well known. So that means that I was cold calling certain stores, not too many cause then they came to us.

So I probably had to call the whole call four or five, including Brown Thomas in Dublin, because I really wanted to work in Ireland. So that was completely like a selfish and,an endeavor, That means that I love the Irish very much and wanted to have the opportunity to travel there. But so I would come to Paris Fashion Week and, and I would sit around.

So what happens, for those of you who don't know, is the fashion shows rarely run on schedule. Buyers have to attend shows as well. as well as showroom appointments. And if one is, if one is late and the traffic is always terrible and they're at the other end of Paris, some people can't make it. So you end up waiting and waiting and waiting.

One buyer just came after I had already left Paris. She came three or four days after her appointment. And so there I'd be, and I'm not the kind of person that's going to leave and just, you know, wait for something to happen or go back to my hotel. So maybe because I like things neat, I started tidying behind other people's appointments. And I'd say, would you like a coffee? How was today? And I would just chat with my colleagues and you know, I would see the selection on the floor and I would get a little bit of feedback as to what was going on. And it was a lovely interaction. And I love making things pretty. So for me, just getting everything off the floor, tidying the color cards, cause this was a time where people would come in and we would say, what color would you like this in?

And we would just hand them like, I don't know, a huge book. And they'd go like, so appointments could be long. And so I'd make all of this go away and make the show perfect for the next person. And I think that's, it's this kind of making myself useful. It's really what it is. I, whenever I found that I wasn't busy, I looked for what I could do that could help someone else.

And I wanted to learn. I didn't want to just be, you know, that weird girl smoking the corner because I still smoked at the time. I didn't want to be the kind of person that, yeah, goes off and, and is impossible to find by the time the appointment gets there.

[00:27:24] Hannah: So it's almost like that, that work ethic and that, commitment to doing great work, regardless of what your job entails. It's almost like, not being too vain or too precious to do the small little things or get somebody coffee. It's just being, being

[00:27:40] Anne: I agree. I think it's actually a really great skill in life to make a great cup of tea or a great cup of coffee because you never know when it's going to be useful. And I'm very proud of my coffee.

[00:27:51] Hannah: Oh, we should trade, coffee secrets.

[00:27:55] Anne: Okay. No, because I think this is the kind of stuff that matters, but we were also in a really collegial atmosphere because it was small. Everybody would come in and out of the showroom. There was a sense of we're all in this together, and I'm sure that it helped, but I think it also echoes back to how Sue and Nicole at Elle Media all these years ago in Geneva had, You know, I'm going to, I was going to say encouraged.

That's not true. They made me, made me tidy up. I mean, there was not a speck of dust on the, on, on the counter when I was leaving in the evening. Like, everything was really, really beautifully done. And I think that they really gave me that. I'd like to say my parents had something to do with it, but I actually think it's probably my first employers.

[00:28:46] Hannah: Yeah,

[00:28:46] Anne: And I had no idea. Yeah.

[00:28:48] Hannah: I really love that. Now, the rest of your career and your time, in fashion, it sounds super exciting. But what I can imagine at the same time is that it took a lot of energy out of you because I think somewhere on that journey, you kind of learned more about yourself and your personality and your introversion.

And a lot of what you're describing soundsvery extrovert friendly, like the, the dynamic, the, the work with clients and like tuning into different client needs and spending a lot of time with other people and with strangers and, you know, finding how, how you can cater to them and probably less so much.

Time spent on, you know, how you regain your own energy. You also said that you've tried to be useful and, you know, busy. So tell me more about, you know, your energy management throughout that time. And, what happened when you figured out that you are more introverted?

[00:29:48] Anne: That only happened later. It happened after I left. I think

[00:29:52] Hannah: interesting. Yeah.

[00:29:54] Anne: it happened after I left. And earlier I had a memory of an interaction with my boss, not Christian, the other one, where he'd really thrown me a massive challenge. And he later said to me that what he wanted was for me to, like, give him a huge reaction.

But he failed, like I did, to understand that my introversion made me, you know, observe instead of react, right? I was listening and paying attention and gathering the information before acting on whatever was going on. And I think that this was a really, this was, I remember this being a moment of deep confusion because I couldn't tell why I wasn't reactive. I didn't have the words for it, but he'd been working with me for six, seven years by that point. And I thought that who I was, was already. very clear. Some of my other colleagues are, you know, very loud and Italian or Egyptian and etc. So very loud in the moment. How dare you? And whereas I'm just very collected and much more quiet.

So I did not manage my energy well during the day. I gave everything I had most days to And that meant that for a number of years, and this is a warning for everyone who's going to recognize themselves in what I describe, for a number of years, I found it really hard to get out of bed at the weekend because I felt deeply exhausted.

And I also really love to stay on my own since I've been a kid. I love to pot around the house. I love to cook, clean, watch TV. I love to read. I love to play music and sing. And all of these things I could do from my home from my cocoon. For a number of years, it was hard to want to engage with anyone before, I don't know, 4 p.

m. 6 p. m. on a Saturday. And I didn't. Read anything into this, but I think this was an early, early precursor of what could have become a burnout. So later on, I, I moved and when I was in New York, it was about the same by the time I came to Paris. It was the same, but worst. And so I put a lot of time and effort into trying to resource myself, which is why I did not burn out.

But I like to say that I flirted with burnout, which is not cute for a number of years. And it was way before people talked about what burnout is. So there was again, no words for what I was experiencing. So the energy management, I think that there's a lot of things that one can do. The first thing is to try to honor what speaks to you.

So for me, I would try to go whenever I could afford it in terms of time, I would try to go for a massage. I went to yoga. I. A thing that women do a lot when, especially when they live in New York, I used to do this with my friends, get a manicure pedicure because there it was, you know, inexpensive and available at every street corner.

And so like small acts of self care were really important. I think one of the things that I much later realized was an, an energy resource was journaling. So I started to journal around 2016 when things were really hard for me. And one of the things that it did is it gave me distance and it enabled me to put on the page things that I perhaps was not giving myself time to think about.

And I think it gives you, it's a reframe anyway, because once it's outside of you and you're looking at it, you're not holding it in the same place in your body, in your nervous system and in your mind. And that's also when I found loving kindness, meditation and mindfulness meditation. And I'm today a certified mindfulness mentor and meditation instructor.

[00:34:17] Hannah: It's just, it's just beautiful how that all kind of came to life for you and how you describe this as a journey and a lot of that was not trendy yet and was not out there yet. But this observation of just the mere activity of writing something down that has been in your head. And then it just feels different.

It's being acknowledged to a point. I find that very powerful too. And, and I think it's, it's just needed because frankly, I'm a huge advocate for introverts in extroverted fields, in industries that, that potentially, cater more towards extroverted personalities. But I do think that Your story is so much proof that introverts can thrive in these fields because they bring unique qualities that are going to be needed, that are, you know, hugely powerful and meaningful in these contexts.

But it is very difficult at times to feel like you belong there, to feel like you can thrive there, because the energy is just so strong. So much different from what we would probably need.

[00:35:27] Anne: It's funny because when you just said that I got the shivers. I'll tell you what I think is the most important thing I didn't know, which I think most people need to get better at as well. I didn't really pay attention to what my body was telling me. And so when you, when I hear you talk about energy, I, I am able to give off a lot of external energy.

prompted in the right way or when I need to, but I was very depleted in my inner. And that's something that I'm sad to say, you know, I got a lot of warning signs, signs from my body and I ignored some of them. I mean, I did go to the doctor, but the doctor was not very concerned. It took about two and a half years to get diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis and I was 38 years old.

So in plus, I have baby skin, so I looked like, you know, 30 and it's kind of a really scary diagnostic as well, because it's an, it's a degenerative disease and the doctors often say, you have that in there, they hang up and then go and find out what you can do for yourself. I'm sure that in part. What happened is that I wasn't paying attention to all of the ways in which I was not going in the right direction for myself.

And it's not on the boss or on the business, though they certainly have their own responsibility to figure out in some of these situations, but it's also up to me. I never stepped and said, I'm so exhausted. I should not be going into work today. I didn't know that was possible. It was almost, the UK also doesn't have that kind of being signed off for work.

Whereas in France, it's very common, very, it's, it's commonplace. And so I did not take the time. to look after myself. I wasn't listening. I was always too ready to do the next thing.

[00:37:34] Hannah: What would you say to somebody who finds themselves in an extroverted field? you know, based on what you've learned about, you know, listening to your body and potentially establishing more of a connection with yourself and what feels strong about yourself. What would you tell them? Yeah,

[00:37:55] Anne: get help we are not taught from a young age to learn to listen to our body. So it's something that's going to grow over a long time. I remember when I first met my mindfulness mentor, Salwazi Johnson, about five years ago, the way he showed In our peer group, the way he was present with sensations, the way he described it to us, it was so alien for me.

I've been studying for six years. I mean, practicing for longer, but this kind of embodied understanding of what's going on in the moment is not something that's going to come overnight. So follow your intuition or your curiosity. It's even more fun. What would be a way that you could get closer to your body?

What is something that interests you? It could be coaching because a lot of coaching, most coaching by certified coaches taps into the body's wisdom. Of course, mindfulness meditation, it could be yoga. There's a lot of somatic therapies. That are amazing. So don't hesitate. Try that for your for for yourself.

Follow your instinct and your intuition and find things that when you've done them that you feel like. It's a primer. It's like it's, it's, if we talk about women's skin, a primer is something that's going to hydrate and smooth the skin. So whatever you put on top is going to glide over and help you help make you look fabulous.

So think of all of these things and getting to know yourself and being connected to your body as ways to prime yourself. to live your best life. And it works at work and it works outside of work.

[00:39:49] Hannah: that is beautiful. I think I love the methodology of a primer. I often feel that sense of being in my own body and being with myself when I go to like workout classes. It can be a yoga class, but I, a year ago I, took up like cycling classes, high intensity cycling classes where you can't, you can't have your phone.

You're in the dark. It's loud music. and I'm just thriving there because there is no distraction. It's just, it's hugely exhausting. I get a lot of energy from the room and from the instructor. And I just, I could just really feel myself. I always feel better when I walk out of there. And, just reminded me of that when you said, find something that makes you feel close to yourself.

[00:40:37] Anne: Yeah.

[00:40:38] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:40:39] Anne: I was talking to one of my clients today and I've interviewed someone on my podcast a few years ago who also found that we realized, I think that there's, there's a few things that when you practice them at the same time are going to supercharge you and also are going to help you to see things for what they are, as opposed to see things as you would like them to be. And it's important, especially if you are an introvert in an extroverted world, you need to be able to stay online with yourself. And so journaling, meditating, walking. If you do these three things, even if it's five minutes each, but consecutively early in the morning or in the evening or at lunchtime, whatever works for you.

There is a thing about stream of consciousness journaling that helps you lay down on paper and help you let go. But there's something to be said about movement. And then of course, silence. I know it's scary for a lot of people, but

[00:41:50] Hannah: Not from my audience.

[00:41:53] Anne: you're right. Actually, I have a friend who's a, a really amazing sport enthusiast and, he's been bugging me to, to give him a yoga lesson.

And I said, how about doing a guided meditation? And he went, Oh, that's too hardcore. And I think it's very funny to hear that from someone who does kite surfing.

[00:42:12] Hannah: Well, it is, it can be scary to be with your own thoughts, but, yeah, also powerful. And where I wanted to go next is storytelling, because you've, you know, following your corporate career and Korean fashion, you started up consulting on, you know, how to tell your story and you work with clients on how to articulate, bringing their value to the world.

And that could not sound more like my audience, because I feel like as introverts, we're sometimes struggling with communicating our value, communicating, what we do really well, or we want to do more of telling our story in the first place.this is where I want to start, really, is how do you go about storytelling?

How do you tell a great, genuine story? And how can you articulate your value in a way that doesn't feel salesy or awkward or bragging?

[00:43:12] Anne: So I want to also say that for years, I was not good at this. So think of me as a guide.

[00:43:21] Hannah: So it's a skill. You can, it's good news.

[00:43:24] Anne: bit ahead of you on the journey and I can give you pointers, but it's, it's a difficult skill, especially for introverts, for people who don't like to put themselves in the limelight. If you ask most PRs, I can't speak for marketers, but most PRs are very comfortable to be behind the scenes and they're terrible at speaking about themselves. So, I actually started as a, as a teenager thinking I was really bad at telling stories because on one or two occasions, one that I can remember, I tried to tell a funny story at the dinner table and it was a really huge portion of my extended family. And what happened is people looked away. People started chatting.

I mean, they started talking while I was talking. I basically did not finish the story. I had to sit down and I felt. absolutely mortified. And all I remember, because the details are fuzzy, is me walking up saying, Ah, well, I can't tell a story. So the first thing I would suggest is start by not believing yourself when you hear a voice that tells you, I'm not good at this.

The first thing to know is most people are not great at this. It comes with practice. But what we don't want is to for you to step into it. any kind of public presentation or engagement with a team or any sort of new challenge, starting you off with, I'm not good at this, because you're already shooting yourself in the foot.

So lesson one, don't believe your thoughts. Lesson two, create a new thought. So find a story that is dear to your heart, something that you know, that when you think of it, that you feel the mental images come through, perhaps you have sounds or smells that come up and you know the ones you can think of a one or two of your favourite childhood stories or childhood memories.

And start by on paper or on your computer, start to write it out. Just, just to get, just jot down the details, the next step is to record yourself, record what you've just written and listen to yourself. And as you listen, you're going to notice that you've left a lot from the actual experience. So you're going to start to edit.

Your mind is going to, you know, send you more images and more memories, and you're going to start to tweak and to combine what you want to do for others is what you're going to be doing for yourself as you write the story. You want to bring the sensorial elements, because our brains have those wonderful things called mirror neurons.

And when you tell a great story, what's going to happen is that someone else's brain is going to start to see pictures. They're not going to be the same pictures as yours because, you know, we're not USB connected, but they're going to start to imagine what you're describing. The same thing happens when you read a great book.

Some of the easiest books to read are deeply sensorial and in the world building, and you'll have memories of passages of Harry Potter, for example, because it feels like you were there without having watched the movie. So when you start to write a story, remember to keep it short, Because, you know, especially if you feel like this is not a skill that you've mastered, don't overextend yourself and try to pitch a TED talk. Try to keep it short and do it around something that you care about and that you have struggled to share with someone else in the past. So I don't have any sort of any particular resonant images that come to me. However, what I described to you about making myself useful In the showroom, I can literally see one day in my memory and how the French windows were open onto the courtyard in our Paris office and how our son, my colleague was, you know, finishing an espresso and smoking on the side of the table and there were shoes everywhere.

So, ways that I could tell the story better. Right. To make it feel more engaging and to explain exactly how much chaos our son was capable of when he was working with his client for half a day. So, there are so many ways that we can get better at that. But so, find stories that you are yourself connected to as opposed to trying to create something or to connect something that's a bit thin. And, And then test it out. Test it out. So a few times on yourself. So write, record, listen, go for a walk, come back, write, edit, record, listen. And you'll come to a stage where you're like, Oh, this is quite good.because these are your own words. And you're going to speak them as well. You're going to notice when the words are not right.

[00:48:44] Hannah: Yeah,

[00:48:45] Anne: It's a funny and really cool thing how, and this is why a written copy is rarely as powerful as copy that feels like it's been spoken. Because the words we speak are the words that create the more, the most instant stories. So as you edit yourself and edit your story in writing, and you record and you listen, you're like, Oh, I'm That's not the word.

No. When you start to be fancy and you start to put like, jargon or other things, you'll notice while listening to yourself that you start thinking of something else because you are also your own audience. So that would be where I would start it. Find something you care about, work on it a few times on your own.

It's probably just a course of an hour if you really want to give it more, a couple of hours, and then, you know, you Test it out out in the wild.

[00:49:41] Hannah: think the good news about this is that it is foolproof. If you go through all these steps, there is no way you don't end up with a great story that you feel confident about sharing. But the bad news is it can be a very painful process. I know that from experience. I think you've mentioned all the right stops and I love that you started with the story that you tell yourself and believing in yourself.

It is part of great storytelling. You need to believe it and you need to tap into some of these experiences that have shaped you and sometimes It is so hard to even put a finger on some of these experiences and what are these stories like the story you mentioned back at the family table where you, where you try to tell a joke and nobody was really listening.

That is something that you needed to remind yourself off and tie it back to, you know, something that you want to bring across. So I think it's, you know, just require a little bit of reflection as to what are the stories that I want to tell or that are, you know, that I want to get into. Thank you. And then also the shaping them, the writing them, and then for me, the most painful part of it all was the recording it, or like, even recording with video and seeing and listening to yourself, because that feels so, so strange from, from just doing that for the first time, but it is also the part.

Where I learned most about myself and about what I can improve. And the more often you do it, obviously, the better you become at this. it makes you so much more confident when you then take it to somebody else. And then you try it out in the real world. And so, it's almost impossible to fail. Because, you know, there is so much trial and error in this process.

But it's just to manage expectations that it can, you know, it pushes you out of your comfort zone.

[00:51:38] Anne: I would say, take your time with it. I mean, unless there's a real clear deadline, you don't have to push yourself too hard. It's, I guess that anyone who's interested in telling a better story, first take solace in the fact that if you tell your own stories, the more you revisit them, the better you're going to get at.

It's your experience. You're going to be able to recall it. Imagine that it's your workshopping you. a part of your life experience. And I think that it's the projection onto how it's going to be received that tends to make people the most uncomfortable or the moment of sharing. So I would say at the beginning, do it for yourself.

And, you know, I wanted to mention about the So I have a slightly different point of view because. I started singing when I was in my mid teens. I recorded a bunch of times. I worked in recording studios. Around that time, I was not in control of the sound because there was always someone else. So I find it much more enjoyable to be running my own home production studio than, than what I experienced in my teens.

I would say so a few years ago, I had to work with an HR person who I like to describe it as an HR puppy. She was very excited and very new, and she was very attached to someone else in the company who was a peer, but we didn't see eye to eye on, on everything. And at first I thought the easiest thing for me to do.

would be to just like steer clear of her. But we really had, I needed her to be in, you know, to work with me on hiring and all of that. So we started a thing. We started to do it on a weekly basis. We would meet for half an hour. So my advice, if listening to yourself and telling your story feels horrifying and just really difficult, just as I thought the HR puppy was, I would say, bring, bring that closer to you.

Don't push it away. Get intimate with it. Get intimate. up into that business. became really close friends. She's someone who I still have a lot of love for. We, by spending half an hour every week together, she got to know me. I got to know her and we both matured through our experiences and the relationship.

It's that sense of othering when you think, Oh, it's just not for me. I can't do it. Or I'm never going to be good at this. If instead you just. Bring whatever feels hard and just gently let it come close and say, okay, so maybe once a week or once every two weeks,

[00:54:28] Hannah: so. Okay.

[00:54:33] Anne: bound to find a different relationship.

around that experience. You're going to find an intimacy with your own voice.

[00:54:42] Hannah: Thank you.

[00:54:43] Anne: You're going to start to enjoy the things that you've done right. And I have to say it's it's something that can be really, really rewarding.

[00:54:52] Hannah: It might just be your secret sauce there, because I think you mentioned a couple of times throughout, you know, your career journey and reflections that you did the things that, know, needed to get done that weren't necessarily fancy or weren't necessarily the most enjoyable, but the spaces needed to be tinied.

And so you were there to tidy them up. It's like, you know, become uncomfortable with what just needs to get done and what feels like a tedious task in the moment, or it feels like something that you want to push away from you.I think all too often as introverts, we tend to stay away from what feels uncomfortable because obviously we want to shield ourselves and we're not quite sure, you know, in what, when it's time to step out of the comfort zone.

And how far we can step out without overstretching and without overwhelming ourselves, because we can easily get burned out when we go too far out. So it's so all too easy to stay in your comfort zone, but I feel like what you're describing is that one step out, it's just kind of like lingering around the edges of your comfort zone and deciding that is the thing that I need to tackle next week to just.

Take one step out of that comfort zone and make a small difference. And then I'll take another one the next week. So it's almost like, I love that idea of getting intimate with what needs to be done. Doesn't feel comfortable. It doesn't feel great, but it's the next right thing to do. And I feel like. We probably all know what that thing is that we need to do.

It's like something that we have, you just know, I think everyone kind of pictures something right now that they feel like, Oh, I know what they're talking about. I know what I need to do.

[00:56:44] Anne: It's interesting because it's there's states of being that you need to get intimate with. They need to bring closer in your experience and the things that you need to do. And from I look at these as two slightly separate things. There's there's a story that Mindfulness teacher, Tara Brooks, she speaks of this often and I really, really enjoy this when we're talking about discomfort.

like deep discomfort or frustration. So emotions that sort of really take over it sometimes. I find that emotions are carrying information about our experience. So what I would advise is don't push them away. Find a quiet corner for a moment and check what is under the discomfort or the frustration. And you know, what was the trigger?

What's behind that trigger? And so Tara Brach talks about this. she talks about a story of the Buddha when the demon Mara was coming to, you know, trying to, you know, find ways to come and disturb the Buddha or perhaps kill him. I'm not sure. I'm a secular meditation teacher and, and, and the Buddha would sort of raise an eyebrow, look over and say, Mara, I see you.

And he would invite Mara for tea. And so instead of pushing the demon away or othering the demon, he would say, come right over here. And I love that story. So the idea is when you have a very strong emotion. Can you invite it to come for tea or for coffee, depending on what it is that you like and just see what happens and what conversation you can have with yourself. But when it's something that you find, if there's a task that you're really struggling to get done, or you notice that you're really procrastinating, there's, there's one, one question that I have found is like a real, real, real useful one. It's asking yourself once a day, it's enough, say, what obstacle can I remove?

From my way today, what obstacle can I remove? And it can be, Oh God, I need to pay that bill or our damn the dishwasher. It could be anything about your job, a task you're postponing, but when you see it, when you identify it as an obstacle, you're removing. meaning that you're, you know, going to be on your way and it's going to be easier and smoother.

Somehow it makes action easier, at least for me.

[00:59:20] Hannah: It does for me too. What I have in mind is messages that I haven't replied to yet.

[00:59:26] Anne: I have some of those. Yeah.

[00:59:29] Hannah: Well, and thank you so much. I feel like we could have gone so many more places. we, we need to do this again sometime, but we've gone into the right direction in terms of, you know, obviously your career and some of the insights we can take out of it. And some of the learnings. I feel like especially for introverts who find themselves in extroverted fields, but also from a storytelling, from a communications perspective, I feel like everybody can start and learn, a practice, some of their stories and potentially apply that to their work life.

And, and just start practicing stuff, start building that muscle. I feel like that's, it's a powerful one and one that everyone can use across industries, across, you know, various different types of careers. So I want to thank you for joining and for reaching out, beautiful connection. Which I'd love to keep and, I want to end by just kind of, you know, let my listeners know where they can find you, how they can potentially work with you, how they can go deeper if they wanted to, when it comes to storytelling and telling their story.

[01:00:37] Anne: Sure. So I'm in the middle of rebranding, but you can actually at the moment find me under avm. consulting, which is where you'll find out more about Coaching and advisory services. So I work both with brands and individuals. So at the moment I'm working with a wonderful author who's launching a kid's book, for example, on her communication strategy, messaging, public speaking.

But I've worked with many brands in helping them. Find the right tone message and authentic communication method as much as working on their, their media plan. Outside of that, you can listen to my podcast, which I love, called out of the clouds. com. I had a few weeks break, but we just resumed. If you are interested in developing your own story and figuring out how to better speak about yourself.

I've got some free resources on my website. So you can just look up, the story of you on my website and you'll find my own story, some examples of the work that I do and some resources like I've recently developed a, a reflection guide called your story, your map. You can just enter your email and you can download it and give it a try.

And I'm sure there's other things I could say. Oh yeah. I also am hosting a number of salons. So if you ever arrive, if you're ever in Geneva, then don't hesitate to look up the events that I'm hosting. I will take some of these on the road in London, perhaps Paris as well. So watch this space and don't hesitate to join me if you can in person.

[01:02:21] Hannah: Wonderful. We'll put all of that in the show notes so people can find you and thank you so much for joining me today, for joining us and I'm sure this wasn't the last time.

[01:02:33] Anne: I hope, I hope not. And I hope we'll get to meet in London at some point soon.

[01:02:37] Hannah: I really do hope so.

[01:02:38] Anne: Yay. Wonderful. Thank you so much for having me, Hannah.