Foreign.

Everybody to another episode of Unscripted, the podcast Collected wisdom of Life, living and sorrow.

And it is, as the name implies, very unscripted.

I get a wild hair about something and I decide that it's time to share it with everyone.

And for good or for ill, that's what you end up getting.

So welcome to the new year.

Yes, I am.

19 minute.

19 minutes.

Wow, 19 days late, which is very fitting.

And so here we go into a new year.

And I wanted to take an opportunity to share with you the opportunity I had on 2 January.

So the new year was really very young and I was invited to be a guest on the Boundless show hosted by Lisa Anderson down in Colorado Springs.

And it is a podcast and broadcast both that is geared toward 20 and 30 somethings.

And so I was invited to come on the show and talk a little bit about the Seasons of Our Grief, my book that is just a year old.

And so that's what this is.

And you will have the opportunity to listen in on the conversation.

And then when we finish with that, then I'll be back to give you a few special announcements that I think is gonna be exciting and interesting for all of you.

So until then, enjoy the conversation and I will talk to you on the backside of it.

Well, friends, happy New Year.

As I already said at the top of the show, we are squarely into 2025 and what better time to talk about.

Uh, so I'm going to introduce you to our culture segment guest today.

His name is Dr.

Ray Mitch and he is the author of the Seasons of Our Grief, Embracing the Journey.

And you're probably like, well, hey, what's up with that?

Or many of you are probably like, oh, I'm so grateful for this because we just came through a holiday season.

It is probably one of the more grief filled seasons in our calendar year when people maybe get hit by grief in a number of different ways.

You may have celebrated Christmas without a family member there.

You may have anticipated something.

You may have walked through some kind of a sickness or some kind of a loss in another sense.

And so this is a great opportunity as we look to a new year to process what we have walked through, even some of the things that maybe we don't know about yet, because again, we have to have good truths around this and understand what God's role is in the process.

And so, Ray, welcome to the Boundless Show.

It's my pleasure.

Thanks for inviting me.

Well, this is so great for us.

Now you are a professor of psychology at Colorado.

Colorado Christian University.

You are professional, licensed professional counselor.

You've been practicing for, let's just say a while.

You look young.

You don't look like an oldster.

Okay.

You're seasoned, you're.

Well, my beard ages quicker than I do.

There you go.

So you're an expert in this.

You actually, I'm really curious about this.

You actually, it says you founded a nonprofit called Stained Glass International, which is actually squarely targeted toward Gen Z.

Yeah.

It's right in your desk demographic, probably.

Because your connection with college students and all the stuff that you're learning from them.

So, you guys, he has a real heart for you.

We talk mostly here to you 20 and 30 somethings, the college student, the young professional.

And so anyway, yeah, so he's, he's legit.

He's.

He has his PhD in counseling psychology.

And again, we're going to be talking about the book that he wrote titled the Seasons of Our Grief.

And so I want to start out, Ray, with a little bit of your own story because you have now walked with a personal injury for what is decades at this point, for sure.

And, and I think that's so interesting because immediately when we think of grief, I think especially a lot of younger adults think of someone dying, but there are a lot of griefs that we have to process and walk through.

So talk a little bit about where your life was kind of turned upside down as a result.

Yeah, yeah.

I was minding my own business and on my roof and I stepped on the ladder and me and the concrete mat and I had a head injury and a broken femur and that all got patched up relatively easily.

But I was left with pain.

My head pain.

And it's not a headache.

A lot of people say, well, it's a headache.

No, it's not a headache.

It's like somebody put ice pick in your ear and squirrels it around in there.

And so I bounced from doctor to doctor.

I lost my job.

I really didn't have much of a job at the time and found it difficult just to try to find my footing.

And I was tired.

I was tired of getting poked with needles and everything else.

And I really just gave up.

I gave up.

And then a friend found a doctor that works with pain management.

And I actually, and my students like to call me a cyborg because I actually have a pacemaker for pain in my head.

Wow.

And that has made me functional, essentially.

And so then it's trying to rebuild.

So the seasons I talk about, I have walked through and I'm in the midst of it, I've had losses within the last, let's see, five, six years now.

One just last March.

And I get to watch what I wrote, which is really inconvenient.

But I think there's a lot of that that, like, I put in my bio.

I kind of got ambushed by God in the midst of my pain.

And that's where a lot of my learning ends up coming from, is that.

And so it's captured, I think, in the book as well, and the character.

And it's like all of a sudden you're like, oh, C.S.

lewis said, pain is God's megaphone.

And now I'm walking that out.

And none of us go, you know, the one thing I need in my life is more pain or more grief.

We're not searching for it, but it is something that comes to us.

All we're gonna experience as a result of a broken world, a sinful world.

We're gonna experience loss and pain and hardship.

And so what I think is really interesting and the reason you have titled the book the Seasons of Our Grief is we are prone to think that grief is a linear process of just, I need to this.

I need to white knuckle it.

I need to.

Surely, you know, this too, will pass.

And so we're just hopeful that every day is better and better until finally we're like, cool, it's done.

We're good.

You know, let's just pack it away and be done.

But you're saying that that is not the case at all.

And so I would love for you to.

Let's talk a little bit about these seasons, because, again, we don't want grief or loss or pain to hit us like the flu.

I often use that analogy of just, like, I'm just waiting for life to happen to me.

Anytime we can have some intentionality toward it, it's good.

But when you're talking about seasons, give us an understanding of what you mean.

Yeah.

The prevailing knowledge is still based on Kubler Ross's stages.

And that's what tempts us into linearity.

You know, we say, well, I got through the denial stage.

Check.

Let's move on to the next one.

And the longer I've been in counseling, the longer I've seen my own process.

It runs in cycles.

And so I have looked at and read all of the material out there on grief.

And probably the one that is most grounded in our development as humans is one that is built on tasks.

So you, like winter, you have certain things to accomplish.

Like in winter, Your work is to accept the reality of what's happened.

But each season has a different tool.

You don't use the same tools.

I'm not going to use my snowblower to get the leaves off my lawn.

And so our temptation in thinking linearly makes it time limited instead of how we experience it throughout our lives.

And, you know, I think Kubler Ross made the comment about we live purposeless lives because we really don't think we're ever going to die.

And so grappling with death and grief is grappling with life.

And that's probably one of the first things my students end up finding out.

It's like, I thought this was going to be the most depressing class I've ever had.

And it's like, no, we're talking about life here.

And if I can have some measure of depth about that, then I can invest in what I got right now.

So it starts with winter, where everything's dead, literally and figuratively.

And then it moves into spring, where our feelings awake and we start to feel things.

It's like, I want to be back in winter, and then beyond spring, then summer.

And now we get a rhythm, and we think life's getting back to normal, but then we get hijacked now and again by stuff from the winter.

And here in Colorado, spring's not safe.

You know, we get 34 inches of snow in April.

That's just wrong.

But.

And then once we get beyond summer, we move into fall.

And fall is when all the colors come back.

And so many people I've talked to who are grieving and go through this process and are willing to just lean into it, they're saying, the color is coming back into my life.

That's fall.

But we all know what's coming next.

And then anniversaries in winter and so on and so forth.

So it creates a sense, I think.

And that's why I kind of grit my teeth when people talk stages, because it creates this expectation that, well, I get through them all.

I'm done, right?

And it's like, well, unless.

No, yeah, no, that makes sense.

I think also one of the.

And maybe this is reflected in some of the seasons, too.

We always want to look around, and whatever we're walking through, we want to compare it to what others have walked through or what we should, you know, oh, well, when my friend lost her grandma, this is how it played out.

So that's what it should look like for me.

And, you know, again, there's probably someone listening who their favorite grandma was gone this past Christmas and it was the first Christmas without them.

So they're kind of like, what am I expecting?

What does this look like?

And what is the danger, would you say, in comparison?

Well, first of all, how are we tempted to compare?

And what's the danger in that?

Yeah, I think the comparison game is devastating because it robs us of living the life we have, not the one we don't have.

And so the comparison thing, ultimately, whenever I compare, I'm always going to lose.

Somebody's always going to have it better, Somebody's always going to be doing it better.

And if that's the case and I apply it to grief, then I'm in real trouble versus where I'm at.

And so the comparison issue is very much a big one.

And people have such unique experiences when it comes to grieving that it looks like winter lasts four weeks and then other people, winter lasts for six months.

And it's like, well, shouldn't I be done by now?

And that word should is a killer.

Because again, should is usually a comparison.

And so I think the biggest challenge is, like I say in the book, is kind of finding other people that are willing to live grief and live life as they have it, not as they wish it should be, and talk that through and bring it out.

Because I can't fight something I don't name.

Yeah, that's good.

So to that end, though, it makes me curious.

How can a person determine whether or not they're in a cycle?

They're just doing the thing.

They can't compare their story with someone else's.

They may think, oh, this is something that happened three years ago.

Why am I still dealing with this?

What's the difference between that something just being revisited and something truly being debilitating, where they might actually need to get some help beyond where they are?

I mean, it's come to the point where they might actually be losing out on some life because of this.

Yeah, and so much of that is, you know, psychology we refer to as pre morbid.

It's so much of that is what you bring with you into the loss.

And so if I struggle with depression before then, I'm probably going to have it even more so, which means I better find some help.

I need to talk to somebody about it.

See, winter ends up being very comforting because everything is quiet and I'm numb and I don't feel a lot and I'm good.

And then we get to spring and everything wakes up.

And so then like, depression or anxiety seems to go into Overdrive.

And when it gets to that point where it's dominating all of our days and the language is language of grief, but it's still anxiety and depression that I need to see somebody.

On the other hand, there's a lot of times that I spend where I spend all of my time.

And I've said this so many times, I spent all my time normalizing the experience.

It's like, no, that's a normal thing.

So there's waxes and wanings of depression or discouragement or whatever, and then there's not.

And that's grief.

And unfortunately, today we've pathologized grief.

Right, right.

And that really gets in the way.

Yeah.

And it's interesting because I think, you know, again, we think of grief as a solitary pursuit, like something that.

Oh, well, I'm, you know, where I referenced white knuckling it.

I'm just gonna.

No one has experienced this like I have.

You know, we don't necessarily reach out to others, but I think it can be tricky because.

Ray, I'd love for you to talk a little bit about it seems like either we, well meaning people will offer platitudes that are just not helpful in grief, you know, comes to mind when someone loses a loved one.

Well, you know, now heaven has an angel.

I mean, some things are just not even true.

Some things are true, but maybe not helpful.

Other things are just not even true.

But this idea of there are either platitudes or this idea that if we just wait it out, kind of the well, which is almost a platitude, the time will heal all wounds.

What would you say?

Where do you see some of those most egregiously?

And what is a better way for a friend or a family member to walk with someone towards any season of grief, quite frankly?

Sure, yeah.

No, I think Christians aren't unique, but we have more ammunition for our platitudes.

And I call them ghost sentences.

It sounds like it's helpful.

But the person who's grieving, I mean, think about Job, Job's friends.

Unfortunately, a lot of us Christians are like his friends.

And we're looking for an explanation for the disasters that has befallen him.

And so I think to walk through is to live with that in the person and not try to correct.

All of grief is about connection.

It is not about correction.

And when we start to correct it and say, like you said, you know, they're in a better place for somebody who's grieving, like where I've been, it's like I Don't care.

I don't care.

There is a hole in my heart that will never be filled.

Now what?

So there's that.

And then the time heals all wounds.

That again, my head explodes because time does nothing other than either it passes or I do something with the time and make it count for healing and be a part of it.

There's a lot of big.

There's a huge paradox in grief because we want to run from it.

And the way to get.

Get through it is to lean into it.

And everything in us is screaming to go the other direction.

So true.

Because my dad passed away of cancer.

And I remember during that time you could tell some people were very reluctant to talk to me about my dad.

They thought if I don't say anything, maybe I don't want to bring up something bad.

I don't.

But actually share.

Sharing memories of my dad and laughing about funny things my dad said and reminiscing was so helpful for me.

So I had to like, tell people, no, do tell that story about my dad or do.

I don't wanna act like he was never here.

It felt like it was almost dishonoring of him to act like he was no longer that he had never been around.

And so that is so helpful.

But even getting back to Job's story, I think sometimes it's helpful just to be that person who's going to be present.

Maybe you don't have to have a bunch of words.

I don't know if there's a.

If there's wisdom in that, but.

Oh, there is.

I mean, apparently there are Mitchisms at ccu and one of them is people desire our presence more than they desire our profundity.

Okay.

And that's what that is.

Be present with me.

Because Job's friends weren't.

They created distance by all the stuff that they wanted to say.

And we get really uncomfortable with Job stamping his feet and demanding an audience and everything else.

It's like that's what grief does.

And you see C.S.

lewis's story, he really goes after God early.

And he's saying when you need him the most, all you get is a double bolted door.

And that kind of honesty, I don't think it's going to take God off guard.

Sure.

And even if you look at Jesus and Lazarus.

Lazarus, two sisters both say the same thing, but do it very differently.

Martha gets in his chest and starts spoken at him.

And Mary says the same thing, but falls at his feet both in grief.

And then Jesus weeps.

Sure.

Well, I think one of the other challenges or one of the other traps we can easily fall into is this idea of kind of analysis paralysis, getting into all the what ifs.

Well, would this have happened?

What if I'd done this differently?

What if I'd engaged in this way?

What if I had, you know, taken XYZ medication or researched more, whatever, or my.

I remember again, thinking of my dad.

I was determined I was going to juice him out of cancer, you know, And I read.

I've read a few books.

I'd heard that it had worked for some people.

And I'm like, I bought the Champion juicer.

I went after it.

I'm like, this will be.

And I'm naturally.

I know you're shocked to hear this, Dr.

Ray, but I am naturally a control freak.

So I know it's shocking.

It's shocking.

But I was just like, here, I'm going to do the things.

And it was me just saying, I really don't trust God with this, so I need to step in and do this.

But how can we get blindsided by the what ifs and get caught in that?

Yeah, I think it happens most in spring.

And we're trying to make sense of reality.

And so we write the story, right?

And we write the story, and we write the story with a possible scenario.

And so we really hate unfinished stories as humans.

We absolutely hate them.

And so that means then that I'm going to find a way to complete the circle, the story circle.

And with that, then there's my answer.

You know, if I had, then they wouldn't have.

And so those kinds of things goes to your point.

It's like I've got to control the ending outcome here.

And the way that I do that is I reframe it so that it's back on me.

Because then I know who to blame.

Then I know who to go after.

Can't go after the person who's died, which ultimately, sooner or later we're going to do.

And that, you know, my dad died when I was 12.

It took me 10 years.

I did all the wrong things.

And I finally got around to saying, I am really ticked that you left.

Well, congratulations.

You just are now grieving.

And that's what it takes, I think.

And so we get so afraid of our anger that we're gonna say something wrong that we cease to be human.

Sure, sure.

I know one of my things that I had to walk through because I also, not too long ago, my mom passed away and she had dementia, you know, older.

And I'm the youngest of six kids.

So both my parents were older, but she.

Her last three months, she was in a memory care fac facility.

And her.

Her kind of downhill slide was pretty fast.

Just a few days, you know, and we knew it was coming, but I'd been with her that whole evening.

So I went home to sleep and got the call at 5am that she had passed away.

And immediately my what if was.

I should have been there.

I should have been holding her hand, singing hymns, praying for her and all of that.

And one of my dear friends said one of the most helpful things to me.

And she said, lisa, the one person who needed to be there was there and that's Jesus.

And again, I think it's helpful for us to put whatever season we're in to put our heads around God, who can do all the things, quote, unquote, fix anything if there's anything we're doing wrong, anything we feel like, you know, it's just like he holds it, you know, and it can't, man.

I mean, the blame, you know, I blamed myself for a couple months probably for not being in the right place and not doing the right thing.

So I think that is so, so helpful.

Well, I would love for you, Dr.

Mitch, to kind of, in our last minute or so here, is there anything.

There might be people listening who don't even know that they're grieving.

Maybe they've stuffed something they haven't acknowledged.

They thought they quote God over something.

Whatever.

What does it look like to enter intentionally into this process and maybe ask the right questions?

What.

What should a person be aware of as they may be experiencing grief or may need to bring something up that hasn't been addressed.

Y.

I think probably the one thing that comes to mind is that there's usually situations like in a movie that I have an abundant reaction to that's way out of proportion.

And that's usually a telltale that there's a well that I've capped and it's pushing and I start feeling it.

So a lot of times that's, you know, even the productive part of grief is that you move into it.

You watch a movie.

Well, we say, well, that's sad.

Well, no, but it lets the wound weep, if you will.

And that's all part of the growth.

So I think situations that would remind us.

And then being ambushed of emotions that don't make sense and just talking to people and suddenly getting choked up, and it's like, what's up with that?

And see, I think generally people don't ask that Question.

They say, oh, this is inconvenient.

Or they apologize for their tears.

It's like, like, what's going on with that?

Or they'll say, oh, I'm just an emotional person.

Or I'm just.

They're gonna make something up, you know, explain it.

So.

Or other people will say, you're really an emotional person.

Now I'm mad because now you just told me.

Now don't tell me what I'm feeling.

It goes as sad as mad.

Yeah, right, exactly.

So.

Well, such great insights here.

And folks, I want you to know the book again that we've been talking about is the Seasons of Our Grief.

I've been talking to Dr.

Ray Mitch.

We wanna make a copy of his book available to you for a gift of any amount.

We are doing that again where we always love getting our guests resources into your hands.

So how do you do that?

Go to Boundless.org, search for 883 this week's episode.

You'll see the book cover there.

You just click on it.

You give a gift, whatever you can afford in the new year to Boundless.

And we're going to send a copy of the book as our thank you to you for being part of the Boundless family.

And this might be something you need.

You might need to gift this to someone.

You might need to get it and read it with someone so you can make it happen.

And, And I hope that you.

I really trul.

Hope that you will.

So, Dr.

Mitch, thanks again for being a guest here.

It's been a pleasure.

All right, well, I sure hope that you enjoyed that little conversation.

It was not nearly enough time, needless to say, in terms of all that I have included in the book, but all the things that I tend to teach about in the grief and loss class at ccu and we touched on things in terms of each of the seasons and it had to be very condensed.

And it's a little frustrating when I live my life by an hour and 15 minute intervals in terms of my teaching and questions and discussion and other things like that.

So that gives you a sample.

Maybe it sets the stage for you for the year to come in terms of the things that you might need to look at more closely.

I don't think that we can live life without the subtext of sorrow.

And we have losses all the time and we don't put those in the same category, if you will, as we put it in the category of losing somebody we love.

And I think in some respects that's kind of our way of containing it and controlling it ultimately.

And so that's a bigger conversation.

I will come back around to it at another point in time, I'm sure.

Now, for why you hung around, maybe, I don't know.

But you can find everything you want to find out about unscripted and about the other podcasts, the Outpost Podcast, just go to sgi-net.org and that is the home for not only the SGI community, information about our silent retreats and all the other resources that are available to you throughout SGI or Stained Glass International.

So you can follow us on the three media, social media outlets.

At Instagram, it's SGIinternational, and in Facebook it is Stained Glass International.

All one word, lowercase.

And then of course, if you're on LinkedIn and you want to be, check out some of the episodes that I have put up on LinkedIn, you can do that as well.

The address there is Dr.

Mitch.

Period.

Nope, not period in the name, just Dr.

Mitch.

Don't forget to spell my last name correctly or you won't find me.

So some announcements I mentioned to you, first and foremost, what you will find on the podcast is an opportunity that, if you are interested, to get involved in a group of people that are talking about some of the issues that I'm talking about here.

And this is kind of a potpourri of issues.

It's not just about sorrow, it's about a lot of other things.

But if you're Interested, one of SGI's major missions is to develop and cultivate communities of the soul or outposts for the soul or for the heart, and to train up leaders to be able to lead that competently.

Not ones that have an agenda and don't know they have an agenda.

The ones that can enter in and talk to you about doing life.

And if you haven't ever bumped into Jesus before, maybe you can have the opportunity to do that just in the relationships.

And that doesn't mean that's a primary agenda.

It isn't necessarily the primary agenda, although it may draw those kind of people together.

And everybody needs to learn a little bit about walking in the steps of Jesus in terms of relationships, in terms of friendships, in terms of the issues of the day, all of those things.

And it is a place to work those things out.

It's not the challenge, of course, is everybody really shies away from the vulnerability.

So we find ways to hide behind scripture or behind discussions on academic subjects or subjects just about our knowledge, not about our hearts.

And that's really what these leaders are being developed over time to do is to direct us to walk the landscape of our hearts with one another in community.

Because it's there that we will find out things we never heard before from other people's walk and experience and journey.

But also from our own.

The minute we speak it, it becomes real and we have now a choice to own it or not.

So groups are coming and they are on the horizon.

If you haven't already signed up to be part of our community and get the newsletter, it will be coming out.

There will be a QR code on that newsletter that will allow people to sign up for a group and, or I'm sorry, not sign up for a group.

We're trying to gauge really the interest level of the people that are part of SGI community.

So whether or not you feel like you have the background and the experience to lead a group and also whether you would be willing to or be interested in participating in one.

So it's a form, it's a QR code that will take you to that form.

You can fill it out, we won't spam you, we won't use information against you in any way, shape or form.

But if as things develop in your area locally, then you'll have the opportunity to check the group out and find out what it's all about and what it's like and the people that are there and, and everything that goes along with it.

Okay, so that's one.

The newsletter is there.

Now what is on the horizon?

I can actually see it.

It's not just a speck, is we are.

I'm going to be introducing an E course that can be found on sgi-net.org that is on the journey from Shame to Grace.

And it is a 20 part series and it will be available, Lord willing.

And we've got a little bit of beta testing to do yet, but it will be willing hopefully sometime in February or early March.

Whatever it takes to get the best version of the videos and everything else available out to you, it will come with a discussion guide.

So if you want to go through it with a group of people, you are more than welcome to do that as well.

And it is a look inside of my classroom and how I teach and what I'm teaching about it, but also the content as I have been reminded over and over again of how just how intrusive the content can be, even though I'm not gearing it or pointing it at anybody.

I think that's God's way of hunting you down and saying maybe you can unplush from the matrix of shame in our world and learn to live in the sunshine of my grace and have the freedom that you've always longed for.

So keep your eyes peeled Sign up for the SGI community.

You can sign up without getting the newsletter.

If you sign in and actually engage the community itself, you will get a newsletter one way or the other.

You don't have to have an access level.

We have a student and then we have a basic and a all access which really contributes and supports the Ministry of sgi.

We are a nonprofit organization here in Colorado and if you are so inclined to want to support our efforts in terms of outreach to the Gen Z and any other generation that wants to find freedom but also wants to find authenticity and being known, that's the place to go, really there.

You can also keep an eye on our silent retreats which are coming up.

They are limited to just CCU students at this point, but we will find ways to maybe perhaps put on other retreats that people outside of CCU can go.

We again will probably no, I'm not going to say that probably, but more likely have another form for you to sign up for the silent retreat and to indicate your interest and where you're from and everything like that.

That would allow us then to connect you up either with a location near you or to have you fly in and enjoy and experience the Colorado landscape and sunsets and sunrises, but also to enjoy silence and solitude and what it brings into our lives in really pretty remarkable ways.

So all that to say if you partner with us to help us with the scholarship fund to make it possible for people to go to silent retreats, whether that's students or other folks, you can certainly send or donate on the website under the Donate tab, or if you'd rather send it to us, a physical check.

You can do that to P.O.

box 322, Eastlake, Colorado 80614.

And that is it for today.

Thanks so much for joining me.

I look forward to the next time we meet, which is probably going to be in about a month, realistically, and I will come loaded for bear to talk about a variety of issues that have hit the culture in one way or another.

We're heading into some pretty big cultural changes with the inauguration and anything else that comes out of that.

I'm not going to be talking politics, but I am going to be talking about living and living life and embracing the the realities of loss in our lives throughout any given day or week or year or whatever that might be.

So until that time, thanks so much for joining me and I will see you next time.

Love you later.

Bye.

Sa Sa.