Julie Genjac (00:07):

John, it's interes8ng when I think about the, the rela8onship between a client and their ﬁnancial professional, and there are so many conversa8ons that are had over 8me and, and a at the end of the day, at the end of those conversa8ons, oEen8mes goals or recommenda8ons are documented and, and the client leaves that mee8ng and, and there are ac8on items on his or her part. And I think it's interes8ng because some clients immediately run and cross oﬀ their list. But I think if, if we were speaking with ﬁnancial professionals, many would tell us that actually helping clients execute and cross those items oﬀ the list can be challenging. It can be 8me consuming. I Is that a conversa8on that you've had over 8me?

John Diehl (00:49):

Yeah, I think it's, it's interes8ng. Brendan Frazier makes the point that the emphasis aEer the development of the advice should be on execu8on, right? How do we get people to actually take ac8on? And I had to laugh, Julie, cuz he men8oned his kids several 8mes during our interview. I always think about our, my kids, right? They're all now in their twen8es and using reverse psychology, like saying, Hey, we need your room to be cleaned up in a week, but I know you'll never do it <laugh>. You know, so he didn't bring out that technique, but, you know, who knows? But I think developing a process of follow up and seWng proper expecta8ons can make the diﬀerence because the best developed plan in the world will not make a diﬀerence if none of the recommenda8ons are ever implemented.

Julie Genjac (01:35):

It's so true. And I think what oEen happens is the ﬁnancial professional really starts to ﬁll the role of a coach or an accountability partner to clients and helping them really cross those items oﬀ the list and implement their to-do plan.

John Diehl (01:49):

So I'm excited to share with our listeners today, Julie, that the conversa8on that you and I had with Brendan Frazier about steps that ﬁnancial professionals can take to be]er increase the odds that their clients will actually implement the key steps to ﬁnancial success. They come as a part of our ﬁnancial recommenda8on. So Julie, why don't you share with our listeners a li]le bit about our podcast guest today, Brendan Frazier.

Julie Genjac (02:16):

Brendan is the founder of Wired Planning, the host of the Human Side of Money podcast, a keynote speaker and was named one of Investopedia s top 100 ﬁnancial advisors. He's building a global community and training program for advisors to master the human side of advice, enhance their clients' lives, and forever change the trajectory of their business.

John Diehl (02:39):

Hi, I'm John.

Julie Genjac (02:41):

And I'm Julie.

John Diehl (02:42):

We are the hosts of the Harcord Fund's Human-Centric Inves8ng Podcast. Julie Genjac (02:47):

Every other week we're talking with inspiring thought leaders to hear their best ideas for how you can transform your rela8onships with your clients.

John Diehl (02:57): Let's go.

Julie Genjac (03:00):

Brendan, welcome today to our Human-Centric Inves8ng podcast. We're delighted to have you here with us.

Brendan Frazier (03:05):

Thank you. Thank you. I'm excited to be here. John Diehl (03:07):

Brendan, I think, you know, for most ﬁnancial professionals, it's probably most disappoin8ng when we feel like we understand our clients' goals. We feel like we're all pulling on the same, or we make some phenomenal recommenda8ons, and yet people only implement one or two of the ﬁve, six, or seven things that we ask them to implement. So, you know, when we think about that human side of advice, I know when we've had conversa8ons in the past, you've talked about one of our goals is using that human side of advice to change behavior. And so that's what we'd like to talk to you about on today's, uh, podcast. So, I guess ﬁrst ques8on, from a very high level, how would we use the human side of things, the emo8onal side of things to impact the way people either make decisions or implement decisions that have already been made?

Brendan Frazier (04:02):

Yeah, so you're, you're talking about something that's, uh, that I'm passionate about because like you said, you just described perfectly the scenario that I think everybody's felt in some way, shape, or form or at some 8me, which is, hey, we had this great mee8ng. Uh, they showed me their goals. I told 'em exactly what they need to do to accomplish what they just told me was important to them, right? Like they said, Hey, this is what I wanna do. I said, great, boom, boom, boom, do these three things and you'll get there. And you fast forward six months to a year later and it hasn't, and they haven't done, maybe they haven't done, maybe they've done one, maybe they've done two. And you know, everybody has the clients that just knock it out and execute every 8me, right? But like, generally speaking, it's like, why are they not doing, like they know how important this is.

(04:40):

They know it's exactly how they get to where they want to go. Like, what's happening here? And it's so frustra8ng cause you would think that all you need to do is just tell somebody what to do and they'll follow through and do it. You re you alluded to it a second ago, but yeah, the, there's a study from FA Mag Financial Advisor Magazine, um, that 70% of clients will implement one out of ﬁve recommenda8ons. And so that's one of those stats. Every 8me I've heard it, every 8me when I ﬁrst heard it, I went, whoa, how do we not know more about this? How is this not more widely known? And then you stake a step back and you go, well that's because it doesn't feel very good to hear that one of ﬁve re one of ﬁve recommenda8ons is being implemented. And so I think it kind of just gets shoved down.

(05:17):

So I've tried to make it a mission of mind to raise awareness around that and say, Hey, look guys, but it's not just enough to give somebody advice and tell them what to do. We have to learn how to change their behavior to get them to actually do it. Because the best advice, the perfect advice, the best plan, the ﬂawless ﬁnancial plan in the absence of execu8on is it's useless. It's like building a house and never moving in. It may look good, right? It may feel good about it, but it's not actually doing anything for you. And so what we don't think about enough, I think is like the fact that geWng people, we think it's enough to just give advice and expect people to follow through and implement. What we need to realize is that people don't have, generally speaking, human beings don't have an informa8on problem.

(05:56):

We have an problem. Informa8on's not suﬃcient to change behavior. All you have to do is look at, uh, obesity rates, business failure rates, the failure of marriage, divorce rates. I guess that's probably a be]er way to say failure of marriage, just to call it divorce, right? It's like we, there's no shortage of informa8on

out there on how to have a thriving marriage on how to have a successful business on how to get in great shape. But, but despite all that, we s8ll have these lingering problems. So it's not an informa8on problem, it's an execu8on problem, which means that telling somebody what to do and giving 'em the informa8on of what to do is just simply not enough. It's not gonna get the job done. The problem is, is that changing behavior, geWng people to change their behavior requires a completely diﬀerent skillset than delivering advice.

(06:41):

It's not a ﬁnancial planning problem, it's a behavior problem, and it's a people problem. Uh, and so I think that is, ﬁrst of all, it's ﬁr it's important to acknowledge that this is the, that it's the case. It's important to acknowledge that it's hard for people to do the things that they are supposed to do, but don't want to do. And we're not talking about, oEen8mes we're not talking about like, Hey, you have this problem, and if you do this, it'll immediately solve the pain that you have. It's oEen8mes we're playing, we're, we're oEen8mes giving advice that they're, it's gonna take a while to see progress. It's gonna take a while to see the impact. Or so, like you tell, show somebody how much they need to save to get to re8rement and Right. And they save, they, they save $500 for the ﬁrst 8me.

(07:17):

And it's like, well, good job, but you s8ll got a ways to go. So you don't really see the impact. It's delayed gra8ﬁca8on, or you put an insurance policy in place. It's like, okay, great. Or every 8me I pay that bill every month, I'm like, gosh, that's so annoying. But you have to have it right? Or estate planning's the one that people men8on all the 8me. So we're not dealing with advice that people are just ready and eager to implement. It's the stuﬀ that's harder to implement because it's not securing an immediate problem. It's more preventa8ve in nature than it is cura8ve, right? So the, I say all that to say this, I'll wrap it up with this. Cause this is what I've kind of recognized from the work that I've done with clients, from talking to experts like Moyer Summers and, and Brag qu and others out there, is that the one thing we need to do ﬁrst and foremost when we, when we think about this, is change and shiE our mindset to say it's no longer enough to just deliver and give advice. We need to assume that the advice that we're giving isn't gonna be implemented. We need to design our advice with the assump8on of non-adherence to what we're giving. Now that doesn't mean that you're ever, no one's ever gonna implement. It just means we need, instead of, instead of delivering advice with the assump8on that they will do everything, we ﬂip it and say, how do I design and deliver advice with the assump8on that they're probably not gonna implement what I'm telling them to do?

Julie Genjac (08:29):

So Brendan, can you tell us a li]le bit more about fric8onless advice? I'm really curious. It's interes8ng, aEer a ﬁnancial professional has delivered this list of goals or, you know, ac8vi8es, how do they con8nue to help a client implement that along the way?

Brendan Frazier (08:45):

Yeah, so there's a number of things that, that you can do, right? I, I'm gonna stress this again, at ﬁrst of all starts with the mindset of changing the mindset and saying, Hey, I, they're probably not gonna, I can't understate how important that is. Uh, but then from there, yeah, one of the key principles or one of the key things you have to recognize is that your ideas are never as great as their ideas. Now, this also, this doesn't just go for your planning rela8onships, your client rela8onships. It goes for all areas of life. So any8me I'm talking about this or giving a presenta8on in an audience, anybody that has kids knows exactly what you're talking about, right? Where it's like, hey, you can tell them what to do. And not only are they probably not gonna do it, they're gonna be resistant to it and do the exact opposite.

(09:24):

Now, our clients aren't like our kids, but they're s8ll human beings like our kids. And by nature, the way we're wired, what we know from psychology is that telling somebody what to do is the least eﬀec8ve way to get them to do it. Now, it's the easiest on us, right? Just tell 'em what to do, hope that they do it, but it's the least eﬀec8ve way to get 'em to do it, right? I can't tell you how many 8mes I've come in, I've like walked in and told my wife, like, I've said that, Hey babe, listen to this idea that I had. What do you think if we do this? And she's looking at me like, I literally told you we should do this like a month ago.

And I'm like, yeah, but you know, a month ago I didn't think it was a great idea, but now I think it's a great idea.

(09:56):

So I'm fully bought in. That's the same thing that you, we have to think about and, and bring to our rela8onship with our clients is not tell, giving them our ideas. I mean, it's, it's kinda where the, the Jedi mind trick thing comes in. Yes, ul8mately it's your idea, it's your recommenda8on and your analysis and your advice, but you have to get them to believe that it was their idea. You have to try to cul8vate the convic8on in them that this, that it's their idea that they think that's what's best to do. And so naturally the ques8on becomes, okay, how do I do that? Right? Well, it's just by simply asking 'em ques8ons, right? So you've gone through, you've, you've gone through their situa8on, you've crunched the numbers, you've done the analysis, and you've come to the point where it's 8me to start. You make some recommenda8ons on, hey, here are the things that we see, some things that we think you should address for just to keep it simple and high level in a way that most people understand.

(10:42):

And then, uh, you start asking ques8ons about what, what would you like to do for, what do you think we should do ﬁrst? What's most important for you to tackle ﬁrst, let them tell you what's important to them because they're gonna tell you the thing that's most pressing to them, which means they're gonna be more likely to do it because it's their idea and they know that it's important. And then what we also know is that pro or mo, that progress creates momentum. So do one thing, you're more likely to do the second, do the second, you're more likely to do the third. So kickstart by having them tell you what's most important to them that they want to do, and start there so that they're bought in and they're ready to do it, and it creates momentum so that the second and the third tasks are easier to follow through on.

(11:22):

The second thing I'll say around cul8va8ng convic8on is not just convic8on around that their, that it's their idea, but also convic8on around why they're doing it. So for example, uh, it's one thing to save for re8rement. It's one thing to save $500 a month. If you're saying, Hey, I'm saving $500 a month to re8re, that's good. That's what somebody wants to do. They want to re8re. So you say, Hey, save $500 a month. And that's mildly inspiring. I guess you're like, yeah, okay, I can re8re one day. But, but con contrast that with, you wanna save $500 a to re8re, or do you wanna save $500 a month so that you can spend and maximize the 8me you have leE with your grandkids by going to Disney World twice a year, take and spending your 8me at all the parks, staying at the Swan Dolphin Hotel and playing game nights as a family when your kids go to bed.

(12:09):

And it's like, you can hear the diﬀerence in that, right? Give me a good reason to save and I'm gonna be much more mo8vated to do it. Get cul8vate my convic8on to do it. Gimme a real why behind it, and I'm more likely to do it. I don't want to, for me, it's like I don't work out because I want to be in great shape. Like yes, I mean, maybe I do wanna be in good shape. That's ﬁne. Ul8mately, my big why, my mo8vator, my driver behind working out that gets me to actually push through and do it is I want to be present and ac8ve with my kids as they're growing up. They're four and two years old. All it takes is like 10 minutes. If

I'm not working out, all it takes is like 10 minutes. I've got nothing leE to give. I wanna be able to be present and ac8ve.

(12:44):

We have two boys too, by the way. So they're always ready to go. And so for me, it's not what I want. It's not, yeah, I want to get in good shape. It's more about why I want it. It's because I wanna be present and ac8ve, and that's the mo8va8on that gets me to actually get up in the morning or follow through and do it. And the same thing goes for advice. Don't just talk. Don't just 8e the recommenda8on to what somebody wants to do. Don't tell 'em they're saving to re8re. Let it remind them, make the connec8on. Say this is you're saving $500 so that you can maximize the 8me you have with your family, maximize the 8me that you're spending with your family if they've told you that that's important to them.

John Diehl (13:15):

Brent and Julie men8oned it, but one of the things I think, uh, in terms of the role of a ﬁnancial professional is that of an accountability partner. So as you talk about kind of geWng people to take those ﬁrst steps, how important is it to have a system of follow-up? Um, how do you begin to design a follow- up system? And then a crucial ques8on, do you set the client's expecta8on ahead of 8me in terms of what to expect when we work together? So would you say you're going to be hearing from me in a certain amount of 8me, do you, do you put 8meframes? I I had a colleague who once said, inspect what you expect, right? So do you, do you put 8meframes on a client in terms of, you know, what you've asked them to commit to? I mean, it seems to me like it's a two-way street, right? If you're asking me to commit my help as advisor to helping you, then can I ask your commitment in making this a success? So that whole follow-up process, your thoughts on that?

Brendan Frazier (14:15):

Yeah, that's two great points there. So ﬁrst I'll talk about the, um, accountability piece of being an advisor, and then I'll go into the follow up process and how you do that and if it's appropriate to set 8me constraints. Uh, it's, so, it's funny, you guys may be familiar, but have you seen the Vanguard Alpha study where they go through and they ﬁgure out what the percentage alpha is for somebody working with an advisor versus somebody that doesn't

John Diehl (14:36):

Mm-hmm. <aﬃrma8ve> Brendan Frazier (14:37):

Mm-hmm. <aﬃrma8ve>. Okay. All right. So Vanguard does this study. They say, all right, what's the value of an advisor annualized you? Every year they come out and they say it's 3%. So if you have an advisor, it's supposed to add 3% alpha to your returns every single year, and they can break down the reasons or the components of to say, here's how they add that value. Well, there's six categories, six things an advisor does. The number one, well, I'll let you guess. Do you know, I wanna guess what the number one thing is, the number one driver of that out 3% alpha is

John Diehl (15:03):

Said accountability, Brendan Frazier (15:05):

Behavioral coaching and behavioral management. And it's not just number one. It's literally half of the 3%. Remember there's six total. So half of the 3% of the, the value of an advisor is the behavioral management, behavioral coaching element. And what I always say I stress is you can't just expect to walk into the oﬃce tomorrow and deliver one and a half percent value changing behavior because you don't know how to change behavior. We've already already said it's a diﬀerent skillset. So you can't just roll out of bed and deliver behavioral change and behavioral management value. So you're right, it's a crucial piece and a crucial component of the rela8onship. Uh, some, it's one of those things too, where it's good

to hear the numbers, but anybody that's been in the business long enough knows that that's a big key component of what they do, is holding people accountable to do the things that they need to do that they may not do otherwise.

(15:49):

You know, you, you, all you have to do is spend a week in this business or work with somebody for a couple days to realize that that's a big component of your value, right? So I, so I always stress like, don't think that you can just wake up and be an accountability partner, wake up and be somebody that changes behavior. You've go]a hone and develop those skills. Now to the follow up ques8on or to your ques8on about a follow up system and, and deadlines, right? So yeah, I think it's a hundred percent appropriate and eﬀec8ve to give, to have a deadline. Nothing makes you more produc8ve than the last minute, right? We know psychology tells us that people put oﬀ decisions un8l they're forced to make a decision. So you're not doing this in a way that you're, um, forcing them into something that they're not comfortable with.

(16:28):

If I, we'll go back to what I said a second ago. You're not actually giving somebody a deadline. You're gonna let them create the deadline that they're comfortable with. Once again, you're not telling them what to do, you're leWng them tell you. So how do you do that? Well, the best way to do it is to take whatever recommenda8on you have. Let's say it's, um, yeah, I'm gonna, I need to get my estate planning in order. I need to, ﬁrst thing I need to do, you ask, here's a another example of how you get people to implement. They say, I want to, I need to get my estate planning in order. That's a big task. So just say, okay, what's the next smallest step you think you need to take to get that process in mo8on? Well, I suppose I probably need to get in touch with an a]orney, an email or call and, and get a mee8ng set up.

(17:07):

Okay, great. So now we're not just talking about geWng estate planning done. We've broken it down into a, the next task, the next thing that you can do, again, once again, that'll create momentum. But now let's think about, okay, let's not leave it open-ended. How do we set a deadline around that? And the way you do that is you ask, is it unreasonable to think that you could have that done by next Friday? Is next Friday on two, is next Friday too soon to get that done and pick, I'm just picking next Friday, pick a week out, pick the end of this week. But what you, and you're, it's not, can you do this by Friday? You're trying to get them to say no, because we know that our brain loves craves control. Our brain wants to answer. No, it lets us feel in control, like we're making the decision.

(17:47):

All you have to do is ask my two year old who says no at every chance that he can get, because all he wants is control in his life. So we'll ask him if he wants ice cream. And he's like, no, yes, yes, yes, he has a backtracks, but he has this ins8nct to say no to everything. People, people grow up, but they're the same way. People want to say no. So they know they have control. So is it unreasonable to think you can have it done by next Friday? Is it asking too much to do it by next Friday? And most of the 8me they're gonna say, no, no, I can do it. I can get it done by next Friday. And now they've told you that they can do that.

You're not telling them to get it done by next Friday. You're literally asking for them to set the deadline in a way that you're giving them control to do it.

Julie Genjac (18:24):

That makes so much sense. I'm curious in the studies that you've, you've read and been a part of and, and the conversa8ons that you've had with so many ﬁnancial professionals, does it make sense, say the ﬁnancial professional creates this list of goals and, and the, the client has commi]ed to them because it's on, you know, their terms and their, their deadline, but there are s8ll three or four or ﬁve or many more than that, that need to be done. Does it make sense when a ﬁnancial professional is following up

with the client to enter through the, what I'm gonna call the accomplishment door ﬁrst? And what I mean by that is to acknowledge the progress that the client has made ﬁrst versus, Hey, I, there's s8ll three things on the list that you need to do. I just wanted to remind you kind of that nega8ve side of things versus acknowledging, I understand you've made connec8on with that estate a]orney, you had a great conversa8on. Shall we talk about the other, the other steps that are next in the process? Does that make a diﬀerence from a mindset and a mo8va8on standpoint to kind of acknowledge the success ini8ally and then build on that versus kind of swooping in, which I think so much of us are wired to do and ﬁnancial services is, hey, those, here's s8ll the things remaining on the to-do list. Let's a]ack those right now.

Brendan Frazier (19:34):

Yeah. Uh, so I've kind of a general life principle where if I don't really actually know the answer to something based on evidence or research or science, then I'll, I'll just straight up say I don't know. But, but that being said, I, it makes a lot of sense, right? We all want to, like, feel good about ourselves ﬁrst, remind ourselves of the things that we've done. There's a, uh, I had a guest on the podcast who talked about solu8on focused therapy. It's a, it's a modality that's used in therapy circles where the whole intent, the whole idea behind it, and, and if anybody's actually like therapists are trained in this, I'm not gonna explain it the way that it's properly explained, but I'm gonna try to get the gist out there. And the idea behind it is that by, by reminding yourself or by thinking back on the successes that you've had, 8mes where you've done the things that you're supposed to do, 8mes where you have like followed through, you're crea8ng more belief and hope in what they call self-eﬃcacy, that you can actually, you can do it again, right?

(20:24):

So you, you, it's a, it's a powerful technique to get somebody to go back and reﬂect on 8mes in the past where they've done what they need to do in the present because it reminds them that they've done it before. So, uh, from that standpoint, in my mind, it makes a lot of sense to do that because not only are you not star8ng by at saying, Hey, why aren't you, why haven't you go]en this done? But you're star8ng with a reminder of their accomplishments and building their belief and self-eﬃcacy that they actually follow through and do it. There's also what you said reminded me of, um, I'm gonna give credit where credit's due here. Tim Mauer, uh, who does a lot of great work in this space as well. He, when he was on the podcast, he said that he never gives more than three ac8on items or recommenda8ons at a 8me.

(21:03):

Again, this is one of those things that's like a really simple idea. It makes a lot of sense when you hear it, but I, the majority of the people I know don't do that. They just give all of 'em at one 8me. And so he'll only do, they'll only focus on three at a 8me, and as soon as they're knocked out, then they go to the next three. But it's like, Hey, let's keep this small and manageable and then knock these out so you don't feel overwhelmed, so you don't feel like there's too much to do. Um, but yeah, so to answer your ques8on, I think that, that, I think it makes a lot of sense to start that way. I just, I just don't know. I can't point to any research or experience in doing it that way and having seen a posi8ve eﬀect from it.

John Diehl (21:39):

Well, Brendan, uh, we're bringing this episode of the Human-Centric Inves8ng podcast to a close, but it wouldn't be complete unless we got to learn a li]le bit more about you, because it's one of our favorite things we do on our podcast. We call it the Lightning Round. So Julie and I, it's okay with, you are gonna ask you a series of ques8ons, and we're looking for top of mind answers. First thing that enters your head. So for instance, I'm gonna start out of with, uh, uh, Brendan, on a scale of one to 10, how good of a driver are you?

Brendan Frazier (22:13): You want gut reac8on,

John Diehl (22:15):

I want your top of mind. Instant answer. Brendan Frazier (22:18):

All right. So my instant answer would beign my hesitant answer right aEer saying it out loud goes, whoa, wait on that sounds really bad. So, uh, but yeah, I mean, I, I think I, I feel pre]y good about my driving skills, but then again, we know that the majority of Americans think that they're be]er than the average driver. So here I am just being one of the millions of people that think the exact same thing. So

Julie Genjac (22:38):

Brendan, what's the best age? Brendan Frazier (22:41):

Ooh, uh, this is good because my wife and I disagree on this. She keeps, we're, we're in our thir8es. She keeps telling me like, her thir8es are gonna be your golden years. And I'm like, babe, no, no, no, no. Hang on. We we're already past our pride. The 20, our twen8es, mid twen8es was like, that was, that was where it was at. Now, of course, I don't know, I may look back on it and feel diﬀerently, but we, we, we talk about this a lot cause I'm like, what do you mean your thir8es? Like, there's a lot more stress, a lot more responsibility. I get that having kids is awesome, but do you remember those 8mes where we would sit around for ﬁve hours a day, just binge watching TV shows and hanging out with friends like that? That was pre]y great.

John Diehl (23:13):

How about, uh, dogs or cats for you? Brendan Frazier (23:17):

For me, dog Yellow Lab. His name's Roland. Uh, big part of the family. And so I'm gonna good dog on that one.

Julie Genjac (23:25):

Are you a morning person or a night owl? Brendan Frazier (23:28):

That's, that one's easy. I don't need to process that for a second night, al. In fact, I always, I joke with people and say, you can't trust anything that I say before 9:00 AM just, I don't even know what I'm saying. If it's not at least 9:00 AM now, that doesn't mean I'm at, I'm at my peak. It takes me later in the day, but I'm at least func8oning by the 8me 9:00 AM around

John Diehl (23:46):

Beach house or Lake House Brendan Frazier (23:49):

Beach. Easy.

Julie Genjac (23:51):

Are you messy or neat?

Brendan Frazier (23:53):

Yeah. Perspec8ve's gonna be everything here, right? Uh, is this a spec? I'm gonna put it on a spectrum and say one is messy and 10 is neat. Uh, and I'm probably a six.

Julie Genjac (24:07):

Well, Brendan, thank you so much for leWng us get to know your human-centric side today. And for those listening who are interested in Brendan's work, be sure to check out his podcast called The Human Side of Money and his website, wired planning.com, for more in-depth learning resources and to engage with Brenda directly. Again, thank you so much for joining us on our Human-Centric Inves8ng podcast today.

Brendan Frazier (24:30):

Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Great ques8ons. It was really hard at the end not to ask those, the, the lightning round ques8ons. Back to you guys. I was really, I really wanted to hear what you had to say, but, uh, no, this is great. Uh, thank, thanks so much for having me. It was a blast.

Julie Genjac (24:44):

Thanks for listening to the Harcord Funds Human-Centric Inves8ng Podcast. If you'd like to tune in for more episodes, don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and follow us on LinkedIn, Twi]er, or YouTube.

John Diehl (24:58):

And if you'd like to be a guest, then share your best ideas for transforming client rela8onships. Email us at guest booking harcord funds.com. We'd love to hear from you.

Julie Genjac (25:09):

Talk to you soon. John Diehl (25:11):

The views and opinions expressed herein are those of our featured guests who are not aﬃliated with Harcord Funds.