Nina: Hi, I'm Nina Endrst (00:03)
Anna: I'm Anna Toonk (00:05)
Nina: Welcome to how to be human.
Anna: A podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humanness.
Nina: In this episode, Anna and I discussed a notion. Take a seat, clear your mind and let's chat. (00:17)
Anna: Hello.
Nina: Hi, do we have stories for you?
Anna: We do. Are you ready to talk about it?
Nina: I'll talk about it for a little bit. I think it's hard not to talk about it.
Anna: May I dramatically set the scene for everyone and then you can take it from there?
Nina: Oh, God sure.
Anna: Okay. So, I want to take everyone back for about a week. You weren't with us, but we held you in our hearts and we were trying to record an episode about emotions, which is what this one will be about. (00:50)
But you know what? We didn't know that we were also the protagonist of the story and we're recording. And I wouldn't say Nina is an impolite person, but you know, as she said in the first episode, she's a bad bitch. So generally, if she needs something or something's going on, she can very clearly communicate that. (01:10)
So, we're recording, and she’s like oh, I couldn't move. I mean, everyone has ADD now, so I'm just like fine, she’s having an ADD moment. She's like moving around her home. I don't know what's happening. Then we have blue white glasses on. And I'm like, okay. And then she’s like, I can't see out of one of my eyes. I think I need to stop recording. (01:30)
And I'm like, yeah. And I didn't know, Nina in times of crisis would become exceedingly polite as if she was gonna send me a letter, press engraved invitation to stop recording. (01:46)
Nina: I know I did become so…. (01:47)
Anna: You did become a little kid and you became very polite. Which is how you also know someone's scared. So, I was like, okay, let me just be calm as well (01:56).
Like I have no idea what's happening, but I'm watching this and we're recording it. And she's like, I can't see out of one of my eyes. And I'm like, you're probably having an ocular migraine. Cause I mean, I'm a doctor now also not only in my podcast or (02:07)
Nina: She saw it on the internet, (02:08)
Anna: I saw it on the internet once, but I also get ocular migraines. And so, I was like oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No one tells you this is going to be an utterly terrifying experience, you know? So that was where I was coming from. So, then she's like, okay, okay, let's try it again. We started recording again, which I was like, this seems silly. And she’s like Anna, I really think I have to stop. Again, is being exceedingly polite. (02:34)
Nina: Like I think I actually had sent a follow-up message. (02:38)
Anna: She did several, I mean, the politeness, I was like, the fuck is she doing? (02:43)
Nina: Guys, so I went to the ER. (02:44)
Anna: So, from there, would you like to tell us what happened? (02:48)
Nina: We finally stopped recording. We stopped recording. And was still really polite and I went upstairs and I called my husband, come inside. (02:56)
And then I proceeded to have a really wild panic attack, which I'm not like a stranger to, but bragger, sorry, sorry.
Anna: Not My first one, I killed it with all panic.
Nina: First one was on a plane bitch. Thought I was going down.
Anna: Not funny. Very funny.
Nina: It was literally terrifying, oh it’s good to laugh.
So, I went to the ER, because one of my clients who I was also really polite to, I was like, I have to cancel. (03:31)
I'm so sorry. And she was like, you need to go to the hospital. So, I did. And they rushed me in which I was like, okay, this could be a good or really bad thing. But there were so many people in the ER and I was like, oh my God I'm going to be here forever.
Anna: Yeah, because just in case anyone's forgotten or you're pretending like the pandemic is over, it's not, yeah.
Nina: There's still COVID. (03:57)
Anna: You know where we are, we're seeing an uptick in cases, which Nina has been also nervous about. (04:05)
Nina: I have never left my child. Yeah. So, the first time I leave here is to go to the emergency room. Thank God my mother was here and so random. So, or not, that's where, you know, it really helps to have faith in something. I'm like, my mom was here. (04:23)
There was a reason my mom was visiting. You know, so I just didn't want that reason to be that I was dying. (04:35)
Anna: If she had to give a note, that's one. (04.36)
Nina: Yeah, I'm just not okay with that. If whoever's listening to our podcast, God, you are not ready. So, the ER people are like, we're going to move quickly. And I'm like, this is literally my worst nightmare. And they swooped me in, and I get a CAT scan. My body's then like violently shaking. You guys, this definitely needed to come with a trigger warning. (05:00)
And my body’s like violent shaking. My husband finds time to like, make it like a romcom. And he's like, you're so beautiful even in the hospital. And I'm like, oh my God, how? It was really sweet, it was really sweet, (05:12)
Anna: That’s so sweet. (05:13) I'm also like, what are you doing? Get me a blanket.
Nina: Oh, I had several, I was like the warm blankets. Give me more. So, then there's like a woman screaming in the ER and obviously like the ER is an incredibly traumatic place to be in general. And there's a woman like screaming, who's a doctor or whatever. And I'm like, oh, this is good. But for the most part, everybody was like very nice and very helpful, which I was thrilled about. (05:41)
So, they got CAT scan. They're like, great news. You didn't have a stroke, not so great news. You have a lesion on your brain. And I was like, I'm sorry now. So, then I like panic and I'm like I have a son. If I had a dollar for every time, I told people I had a kid as if that was going to save my life from whatever impending doom. I was like, I have a child, I need a blanket, I have a child. I need a charger; I have a child. I need to make sure this isn't a brain tumor. So, they're like, we have to admit you, you have to get an MRI. You have to see a neurologist. (06:12)
Anna: For reference y’all Nina does not leave her home. Never. So, I would say this is like truly the perfect storm of shit. She does not want to deal with. (06:24)
I mean, no one likes a hospital visit or medical crisis, but this is a real perfect storm or cross-section of shit you hate.
Nina: I'm still breastfeeding. So, I'm like, how's my kid gonna go to sleep tonight. He's never gone to sleep without me. He's never going to sleep without breastfeeding. You know, I don't need another doctor to be like, children are resilient. (06.42)
I'm like, yeah, yeah, I get it. But I'm just like, thank God. My husband's amazing, praying for the best. So, he gets Milo to bed, but thank God, which really is like a huge part of it for me. Like I would not have been able to relax. At all, if I didn't know, he went to sleep. So anyway, next day I got an MRI and nothing on the MRI, but I have to wait like hours and talk to like many nurses, one of which was deeply disturbing, many of which, but one of them was like so amazing and then started talking about her son in the military and was like, we had to leave because it was a gay military. And I was like, what? (07:21)
Anna: Oh no... (07:22)
Nina: You can’t say things like that. Please just step away from me. So, she was lovely until that happened. And then I was like, ah, Paging nurse paging, other nurse paging any other nurse, is there someone who's appropriate and it doesn't bring up hot button topics like the rights of others? (07:45)
Anna: Yeah. So that was awesome. (07:49)
Nina: But Dorothy was pretty great up until then. I mean, that's what I'll call that. (07:53)
Anna: Oh, she probably had all the blankets. Like when I was talking to you, she took a turn. I won't tell you where I am. So, you'll never know who she is, but for all those who wanted to try to find, listen, you don't know, people are amped up Madison square garden. Okay. True. It's true. Like the rabid fan base that we're cultivating, you know now. (08:13)
Nina: I’m thinking back on the MRI, which I'm really happy about, but I'm now in the midst of like, figuring out how to get a second opinion. Nobody will call me back all this to say that guy's emotions are running high. And we're going to talk about emotions in general, but that's what happened last time we tried to talk about emotions yet. (08:33)
Anna: So, if you never get an episode about emotions, like maybe we'll start a patron on at one point and release this shit and you'll know why, but we also, when Nina and I were finally able to talk that night when you're in the hospital, we really lost it at one point being like the irony is not lost. It all melted down when it came to talking about emotions. (08:58)
Nina: So many... (08:59)
Anna: What are emotions? Tell me again. (09:00)
Nina: I'm so glad you asked, because you know, this bitch has a definition. (09:04)
Anna: Please give it to me. (09:06)
Nina: Emotions, a natural. Instinctive state of mind, deriving from one circumstance, mood or relationships with others, instinctive or intuitive feeling as distinguished from reasoning or knowledge. (09:22)
And then that brought me to the, okay, what's a feeling and feelings are an emotional state or reaction. A belief, especially a vague or irrational one. We didn't care for that. Sent that one back where it came. We didn't care for that. It felt a little touch of the gas lighties. (09:46)
Anna: The capacity to experience the sense of touch that sounds very sensual. (09:49)
Nina: That is sensual, ugh that word. (09:50)
Anna: And sensitivity to our intuitive understanding of. And I really liked that as well, but it's so something I've been thinking about a lot and I've been following a new therapist on Instagram, which I feel like a lot of them are only good for a little while. (10:13)
And then they all kind of like get high on their supply and become weird, but he's called Your Diagnonsense and he had this really good thing. It was interesting about like, just because your feelings are valid doesn't mean your reactions are, was like one of his things. And then he had another one about feelings and it was really Interesting like how wild people were going in the comments about it. And I was thinking, I don't know about you, but I've been super emotional since the jump. Like came to this earth, just like a naked lobster with so many feelings. (10:54)
Nina: Oh my God. (10:55)
Anna: I mean, my mom is not as super feeling person, not in that like she's cold or whatever, but it was interesting actually, because when everything was going down with you, I was hugely fucking triggered obviously, but was like, I'm okay. I'm going to take care of myself. Not everyone you care about and love dies, you know, but (11:12)
Nina: I’m sorry. (11:13)
Anna: Well, no, it's not your fault, but it was like cool to actually be able to show up for you and take care of myself in that moment. You know, it would be like, it's going to be okay. Like you're doing what you're doing. There's nothing to react to yet. It's a scary moment. We'll take one thing, you know, (11:26)
Nina: Did you think I was going to die? (11:27)
Anna: No rationally. I know you're not,
Nina: But you think everybody's going to die, emotionally.
Anna: I think everyone's going to leave me. Right, right, right. It's more about that. So, but it is also okay. It's all worth it for this at last. It's funny though, but that's when also too, I lit the candle and prayed for you and called in the power of the dead dads. I was like, this is not acceptable. Like that's not happening. I mean, as if I have that kind of control, but I felt good about it. But then I was talking to my mom and my mom was like, wait, when did this happen? (12:02)
And I was like, last night. It was crazy my mom held space for me and she's like, oh my God, that must've been really upsetting. Were you super scared? And I was.
Nina: Yes, who's asking. This is a trap.
Anna: You know, because my mom, we’ve had these interesting discussions lately where she's like, you just feel so much and think about things so much. Like I've always felt so ill-equipped to help you, you know? And I was like, you didn't always need to help me. You just had to like, not deny it, you know? (11:36)
And I'm curious for you because you, cause you and I, I think have felt a lot of the same things. But what we did with it, I think was different. Like, I think I was I’d say more under the radar and be a little bit sneakier and you were more outwardly rebellious, you know, I'm curious, like, did you really feel like your emotions were denied? And when do you feel like you came to this earth very emotional? Two, do you feel like your emotions were denied? (11:53)
Nina: I feel like I came to this world, so emotional, sensitive, to everything and everyone, and really intuitive, you know. like I knew my parents used to call me alien, which now has been co-opted by the fucking Qanon freaks, but alien, as in not I'm an actual alien, this isn't where I come out with my bone structure and okay. (13:25)
Anna: It looks sick. (13:26)
Nina: Does it? Do I look different or am I just an alien? And I was so deeply sensitive that I would be kind of talking to dead people sometimes like people I knew, but I felt sad when anybody was sad. You know, I think sadness was really the first time that I realized like seeing or knowing somebody else was sad when my grandfather died and everybody was, you know, at the funeral and crying and all I wanted to do was help.
Like, I wasn't really sad because I apparently it was like, you can talk to him and went to my room and did that at three, which now picturing my son. I'm like, if he was talking to dead people, I'd be proud and freaked out. And denied though, yes. It was almost like people would like pick and choose when it was a good thing and when it was not. (14:12)
Anna: A hundred percent. (14:14)
Nina: You know, it's like seeing it. You're amazing. Not convenient for you. Stop. (14:20)
Anna: Yup. I'm familiar with that dance. (14:22)
Nina: Yeah, that really threw me off and still throws me off, which is why I have a hard time saying how I feel. And I just started going to therapy because I've tried therapy a lot. Like I’ve never been against it, but I've just never, it's never really done it for me. The people haven't been a good fit, blah, blah, blah. (14:43)
Anna: Have you tried it as an adult? I didn't, I wasn't clear on that. (14.45) I knew you tried as a kid. (14:46) I didn't know if you'd tried as an adult or whatever, or you were young...
Nina: At all stages at all at all stages.
Anna: Maybe again, she'll try as a crone. (14:56)
Nina: I'm going, and I'm going to keep trying, because I think it's important for me. Talk to somebody I don't know about or to anybody about how I feel, you know, and I think that's a huge source of my personal anxiety, which I have a lot of, which I think is important to talk about too, because it's like the advice I'm getting or the articles I'm reading of like how to kick anxiety, you know, it's like hilarious. I'm like, oh, well I made a career out of it. So, check. (15:22)
Anna: Yeah (15:23)
Nina: I don’t need Anything that's bad for me. Check. I meditate. Check. I exercise. Check. I like sometimes you just need all of the things and also like something you haven't tried, right? (15:35)
Anna: Yeah. I mean, I think for me with therapy, like what was super-duper helpful besides all of it was realizing so much of my anxiety came from like my fear around like, not being heard, like my feelings. (15:51)
I was holding way too much. I wasn't communicating enough. I wasn't asking for what I needed and I wasn't just sharing how I was feeling. And so, it just constantly fed this anxiety. This isn't quite right, but like, I'm not going to get what I need or like, I'm not going to be taken care of or like that isn't it fully, but like, I just felt all this anxiety. (16:12)
And it was like also, I was taking a lot of care of other people. So, it was this merry-go-round, you know, of constantly putting myself out for other people, but then like not taking care of myself, you know in that emotionally, I guess. (16:24)
Nina: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a huge part of it, right? When we're like, especially as women, we're taught to take care of everybody else. (16:31)
And there's not typically a lot of room left for us unless we demand it. And even then, you know, there's not a lot. So, if you don't learn that, which I don't think many of us do male or female, how to take up space with your emotions, you don't do it. And then it becomes like a way of being, and then it manifests in so many different ways for people, right? (16:54)
Yeah. I'm curious what you think. And I'd like to talk about what you brought up earlier, which was the difference between having an emotion and the reaction. And I think so often we hold the emotion. I know I do to the point where maybe I'll process it on my own, or I think I do or whatever, but if I'm holding something, eventually the reaction is like not what I want it to be. (17:18)
And I don't get angry anymore. Like I don't yell, although sometimes I'll get like pissed about a phone call or whatever, but it's like, how do you feel? What's a good practice, I guess, for like letting the emotion come in, feeling the emotion and then doing something with the emotion before you have a reaction. (17:38)
Anna: Well, I would say. This is something I've been actively working on in therapy. So, I'm pumped to talk about it. I've been holla, holla. It's funny, Nina and I like to try not to be annoying about Lanka. Oh my God. I'm writing a link to it, but it is funny. Yeah. But it is funny. She's like hey, I was going to hop into the recording early. I was like, I'm already there. See you in a second. And then like right now I'm like, oh, I'm so glad you brought this up. This is like something I feel really strongly about because I would say I've been working on it for. Two years, no joke. And I'm starting to feel a sense of like, I know what the fuck is up, like for me. (18:15)
And not that I have any mastery, not that I'm like, oh my God, I've got this. I'm going to tell you right now. But I started to realize how often I would make a mess. Or okay, I'm going to walk it back. I used to feel a tremendous amount of shame just period, because I was so often told what I felt was wrong. (18:36)
Either I had misread it or you're taking it personally. Like I was always just sort of told that I was wrong. You're too sensitive. You're too this, So I had a really hard time just validating my own reality, and I think it's important with any emotions to realize they're valid. You're allowed to validate your reality. (18:57)
It's not about right or wrong. And that's the moment for me to pause in. Okay. Like something's happened I'm angry. When I feel the emotion is not the time to react. I’ve learned now when I take action from the initial reaction, I generally don't feel amazing about it. That's when I can lash out or that's when I shut down a variety of things, you know, but it's usually not ultimately what I want. And I'm not even talking about like my higher self, that bitch is like on an island somewhere most of the time, I'm not even talking like as a spiritual person, I'm trying to hold space. (19:41)
Nina: We’re never talking like that. Even though everything we’re talking about is inherently spiritual. We're never talking like that. (19.49)
Anna: I'm talking about human goblin, get a vaccine and a vaccine. You're not an alien. (19:58)
Nina: Oh my God. (19:59)
Anna: So I had to learn. I also think that because I was like really dismissed. I would almost double down on reactions that when people would be like, I just have like vivid moments of either like getting a text and being with a friend and then being like, don't respond, like, don't it. And I'd be like, oh, I'm going to respond. (20:20)
You know, I felt a lot like a pinball machine, you know, and I was just bouncing off different things. So, I realized, okay, why am I doing that? And I realized a big thing for me is it was so uncomfortable to sit in my feelings and sit in the emotion. And I had to start sort of sifted. And I use a visualization technique where I hold my feeling in one hand and I hold my reaction in the other. (20:49)
And I go like, until they've sort of calmed down and I know which is which I'm not taking action and That's really helped me because I feel validated. I'm seeing myself, I'm affirming to myself, like, I'm on your side. We will take action. Like this will not stand. However, we may not want to go about it this way, because how many times have, I said to you, like, fuck this Bubba, Bubba, Bubba. (21:12)
And then you're like, cool email. That was nice. Because you knew I just had to get it out of my system, sit with it and then I could be calm. (21:19)
Nina: Yeah, I'm glad I learned. Well, I just knew kind of instantly like after two minutes of knowing you let's just braid her hair and let her come back to this later. You know? (21:27)
Anna: Yeah, that's true. It's true. I’ll wear myself out, but I need you to like do a circle. I need to do a lap. (21:35)
Nina: Exactly. And I think that is the power of supporting each other without making it personal. Right yeah. (21:48)
Anna: And I don't really need anything in those moments, to be honest, I don't need anyone to agree with me. I don't mean like, and I think that like where I used to go wrong all the time, is like, you know, like say a friend had done something shitty, you know, or disappointing or something. I would go like Nina like, my friend so-and-so didn't mean, you mean me? And I would need you to validate it so badly. And I don't think I realized that. It just, they wouldn't feel good, even if you were like, yeah, that was the worst thing ever. Like, I didn't really feel better, you know, (22:20)
Nina: No, never you know. (22:21)
Anna: I don't know. It was like, I would feed it, but like, didn't know how to dissipate it, but I think because so often my feelings have been sort of taken from me, or I felt like I'm on my own. Like I need to cope with this or I need, you know, like I had so much shit happened to me, really young that I really didn't get the care I needed to process it. So, I think so often too, I would feel this increased anxiety when things would happen or I would have emotions, you know, of like, oh fuck Now there's, even more, to deal with. You know? And I felt I think really alone in it. So, I think that was also part of why I always wanted to drag somebody else in and. (22:53)
Nina: Yeah. (22:54)
Anna: Didn’t realize like, oh, it doesn't work. (22:57)
Nina: No. And then you also become like emotionally messy (22:59).
Anna: Yes. (23:00)
Nina: Like to other people which is shitty and it feels shitty. And then you have to like go clean up your mess, you know, and be like, sorry about that time. I did that thing. And threw the plates. I mean, whatever it is, you know. (23:13)
Anna: Well it's also like I've been thinking about this a lot and I'd be curious what your take is on it. But I think sometimes too when you are either kind of like in a healing crisis or really beginning disorder go, huh? I’ve got some stuff that you also become. It's a controversial word. You become narcissistic. (23:13)
Nina: Oh my God. I was a total dick for a while. You know, like I couldn't see. I remember my friend getting really upset with me, which I'm still like, whatever, but whatever. No, no, no. I don't understand because what I think she was saying was not actually about that, that thing. She was so with me that I didn't give her a card for something. Okay. But I am forgetful like that. Anyway, I'm the friend you call on a crisis. I'm the friend that was helping her that very night. (24:04)
I won't go into detail with something emotional, like very emotional. So, on this night I'm helping her through this emotional thing. And then she got really upset with me because I didn't, and didn't talk to me for a long time because I didn't give her a card on her wedding day. (24:23)
Anna: So that's the thing too, that I thought was really interesting about Your Diagnonsense is that I think like where we all get caught up is like, you hurt me, therefore I'm justified to hurt you, you know, in terms of reactions. I had a realization around my mom recently. I hope she never listens to this podcast. She was like, is the podcast out? And I was like, it's probably because you literally can't. She literally can't listen to it. She couldn't, I don't think any of this would surprise her to be honest. I mean, I've said a lot of it to her. (24:59)
Nina: She’s just like, I'm the star, Anna. (25:00)
Anna: It's true. She would like that, I think. (25:04)
Nina: Okay. Great. Good talk. (25:05)
Anna: But, you know, I think anything I say, quote, unquote, behind someone's back, I try the best I can to have said it to their face first. So, in the case of my mom, I had a birthday a couple of weeks ago and she was out of town and she texted me early in the morning, like happy birthday. And I kept being like, oh, I'm sure she'll call. And at first. You know, I was tempted to sort of get in my feelings about that, but then I was like, she left presents for you in your room. She hit a cake and like made Ed do it. And I was like, Ed had no fucking clue what to do with this cake. You know, like she was this little birthday mouse that I could see the evidence of her care and love like all over. (25:45)
And one of the funniest things too was on the tag she had said like, I may not be here for this one, but I was there when it counted, which I felt was the funniest fucking thing I'd ever read. It's so my mom that I kept it, like all my presents and stuff. I was like, this is maybe the funniest thing, you know, and I talked to her about it and I said, it's so interesting to me that like, I'm glad wherever I'm at, in my own healing shit, that I'm able to see what you did versus only being focused on what you didn’t. (26:15)
Yeah. I want to feel like, obviously loved by my mom on my birthday. I did, she did that. She accomplished it. You know, like I can't get hung up on you didn't call me. And I find that really interesting sometimes with friends and stuff where you're like, hey, you're right. I did forget a card. I'm sorry. I didn't know that meant something to you, but I showed up in this other way and it's interesting to me when we can't see that when we're so in our feelings or so like, we forget also that we've attached meanings to these things. (26.46)
Nina: You know, that, that story, that story that we've talked about, that I think about all the time, because, you know, I know that I've been too focused on myself in my twenties like emotionally, I was so. (27:00)
Unregulated that, you know, I'd be like, I mean, I, I was really supportive as a friend, but like, there were some things that I just, once I was spinning out in an emotion, I, it was hard to like, not be an asshole in some way. And like, kind of, it was a tornado a bit, right? Like I'd call people, I'd sweep them into something that they did not need to be involved in when I really need actual mental support or mental health support and, or my own internal dialogue, which I just refuse to listen to for so long. And so many things that I'd be like, no, I'm going to call blah, blah, blah, and be like hey, can you move into and blah, blah. And I was just using all of my energy and my voice to say things over and over again, then I just, it did not help in the least, it actually made things feel worse. (27:57)
So, when I started listening to myself, which was an exciting day and still working on it, I was like, oh, I don't need to call anybody ever. And then I kind of swung to the other extreme where I'm like I am not going to talk to anybody ever about anything. And now it's really hard for me. And I'm kind of just coming out of emotionally, opening up to people at all, (28.21)
Anna: It’s hard. (28.22)
Nina: Because it is hard. And I'm now because this is what we do for work. I'm so used to being like a space holder that I, that I don't want to do that with my friends. And then I'm like, are you, my friend? Or you just should actually be a client. And then it's like, that's confusing. You know? And then I don't want to open up to people and it's just all learning. (28:45)
Anna: Well, you've got trust stuff. I mean, I do too. That's I'm not saying it like, I'm not saying it like, (28:48)
Nina: I'm interested. I'm interested to hear what you mean by that. (28:55)
Anna: We have trust stuff. Well, yeah, but I think you and I specifically have trust stuff. So, I think that's why I can also navigate it with you because I'm like, oh yeah, it was, I too am familiar with this dance. (29:08)
Nina: Yeah. I do have trust stuff. (29:09)
Anna: It's hard to let people in and it's hard. I think, as you get older and are like, it's so difficult. I mean, it's, it's funny, like doing this podcast like it helped me in a lot of ways. I come back to that, the one we did about the beginner mindset and thinking about that and how y'all heard it is as you get older, to open up and go this may not go the way it has before. I mean, and that's something you and I have talked about and a lot of ways it's like funny Nina and I will talk about, you would think. That we're in a relationship. I mean, we are in a relationship, but you would think that we were like doing sex because we're like, it's just never been like this before, you know, but I'm proud of us that we took the leap because I do think we were both people who want to be open, but ultimately, like we're not crazy. (29:55)
We've been let down by a lot of people, you know, (29:56)
Nina: Are you psychically in tune, because I was thinking about this today. About how I'm so glad we're doing this podcast. And also, it's giving me a lot of anxiety just the last couple of days, not this, but I'm like, oh shit. I'm really stepping into something that…. (30:17)
Anna: Did I tell you I've been weeping at therapy every week consistently.
Nina: No, but yeah, I'm not surprised. (30:18)
Anna: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, lots of feelings, lots of emotions. And I'm having a lot of emotions about relaunching our site and this podcast. And I'm really starting to like dwindling down some clients, not because I don't love what I do, but because I'm ready to step into this stuff more fully and we need balance in our lives. (30:43)
So, there's a lot of transition. My kid's turning four in a couple months like he's like a kid today. I was like, fucking cunt. I literally said that about a doctor. And he was like, oh mommy. It's okay. And started patting my back. (30:56)
Nina: And I love please. (30:57)
Anna: I have lots of audio notes of him chiming in into this cute little baby voice going, fucking people. And it’s the best. But it’s overwhelming. I think that that's been something that's been really eye-opening for me. And I talk about in therapy at least once a week, if not every other week of the duality, the duality of nothing's bad. Also on the flip side, Nina is rich with parents. She has both of hers and I'm down one, which I know I've mentioned already a thousand times on this podcast, which I do feel a little bit self-conscious about. (31:37)
Nina: No, you mention your dead dad as many times as you like. (31:38)
Anna: Thank you. (31:39)
Nina: Like that's one of the gifts of having a dead parent is you talk about it whenever you want. (31:47)
Anna: I've been doing a weekly thing with Jordan Sondler and Bridget Badore on the Clubhouse, Dead Parent Club. And on the one hand, I feel like I can step back and kind of look at my timeline and look at how things have been unfolding. And it makes a tremendous amount of sense to me that like you and I were like, let's do it. (32:04)
And then like, not that long after that, I started doing DPC. And then not that long after that, I was in my writing group. So, I've been doing all this group work and like really getting pushed further and further out of my own comfort zones of just being really authentic and it's changed. Like it made me start realizing too and calling myself out with all my own bullshit of realizing how often I would default to like, teacher. (32:30)
You know, poorly trained therapist or, you know, intuitive healer mode or whatever, versus just being fucking honest with the people in my life of like that hurt my feelings or I'm stressed out right now, or dah, dah, dah. I realized I was always putting this barrier or I mean, obviously, like, I don't want to think that I'm like engaging in toxic like power dynamics or control dynamics or whatever, but we all do, we all are, and it was like weird to be like, oh, I'm doing everything in my power. (33:00)
It was kind of humbling to become how unaware I was of some of this stuff. And I was talking to my therapist about grief recently. I'm saying like, it's never, like, I thought my father dying suddenly when I was a teenager, didn't affect me, you know? But it felt like it was so massive. I didn't even know how to articulate it. (33:21)
I didn't have words. And she was like, that's what happens sometimes. Like it takes that long. And I said to her, I was like, I'm really, so, I thought, yeah, this will be announced. So, we're doing another podcast. (33:32)
Nina: I'm not because my parents are alive. (33:33)
Anna: Her parents are alive. JK, Nina, of course, will be like EPing it, but it will be myself, Jordan and Bridget are going to be doing a podcast about grief and parental loss and all of that. (33:46)
We're still kind of figuring out what it is. So, I'm not going to talk a ton about it, but it's like making me obviously think about these things. So last week in DPC, I said, you know, it’s not like a thing that happened. Like it's a lifestyle you're never able to unravel it from yourself or your story. (34:03)
And I said to my therapist. Cause like, so when we started doing DPC and I think also just like partnering with you, like, it was just very like activating for me. Like a lot of stuff started to come to the surface and I was like, oh shit, like what a gift? I mean, shown these things like they're ready for healing or there, or whatever, who knows. (34:19)
But I think so much of it was me getting so secure in like who I am and what my experience has been to like, not let anyone tell me it's been anything. Um, so when recently, when I said like Dead Parents Club was like, whoa, that's harsh. And I was like, are your parents living or dead? And they're like living. I go, exactly. It's not for you. (34:39)
Nina: Are you kidding me, someone said that to you. (34:40)
Anna: All the time. Always people with living parents. (34:42)
Nina: Why? Because the word dead? (34:43)
Anna: Yup. And I'm like, guess what's real harsh dead parents who've passed off (34:48)
Nina: Exactly. (34:49)
Anna: You want me to make it light for you because you don't want to handle the emotions. (34:54)
Nina: That’s not how it works baby boo. (34:57)
Anna: It was interesting like with our podcast goddess, Lauren, like it was interesting even having the initial kickoff call with her, I said like a big thing for us. Like, something we feel really strongly about is like, this is a space safe for people who have experienced this loss, like to freely discuss it, that you're not managing how you're talking about it or anybody else’s reaction to your story. (35.20)
And that's been a big thing about DPC is it's like this shortcut, we all are people who understand, like, no matter where you're at in that space, you know, if it was a month ago or it was 30 years ago like we get it. But it's made me think about like, it's interesting to me like that feels really good. It felt really healing. It's healing. I didn't know I needed it. My father died a very long time ago, so it came as a surprise to me. And it's been really inspiring. (35:50)
Nina: Not very long. I mean, he's like you were a teenager. Not that I ever, yeah. I mean, I hear (35:54)
Anna: It is what it is to a certain degree. Like, that's been an education. These things are never done. They're never over like the wounds never heal up. And then you can't tell that there's a scar. (36:02)
Nina: No(36:03)
Anna: Like you just get better at it and you just know better how to like, take care of yourself in it. But like something I've been thinking about too, is this space of DPC has been great for me in a lot of ways and activating, but also, like, I don't know if you experienced this a lot of like, when people, like, if you were telling a friend about what just happened to you, like I had this really scary thing and they're like, oh my God, same. I had an ingrown toenail and you're like, that's not the same. And like(36:31)
Nina: Anna, can I please answer your questions? This is why I don't talk about things…(36:40)
Anna: But like where’s the line between, like, it feels good at something I've been asking myself with is like, even if I have experience in what someone's talking about or something, the first thing I do before I offer that or talk about is that I affirm their experience. (36:58)
Nina: You have to, you just have to, everybody listening emotionally, please try to do that. It is a game-changing behavior. (37:07)
Anna: And what's interesting is like I had a friend who was really bad about it and it was. It may have ended our friendship. To be honest, I think I got to a point where I was just like, I cannot cause I did flag it and it didn't change. But I asked my therapist, I was like, the fuck Is that like, what is it like, what makes us do it? Cause I'm always like, if I can understand it, then maybe I can shut down how I feel about it. And she's like, it's seeking connection. People are doing that to try to seek and forge a connection. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. I was like, well, don't do it. (37:37)
You know? So, I would offer, if you find that you often are trying to like, as a sign of connection, you know, say like me to maybe don't because it actually breeds disconnection. It's giving you the opposite of what you're seeking. (37:50)
Nina: Yes, it is. And I've had that experience many times. And it sucks, you know, and also like, let's talk about healthy, emotional connections now that we're talking about how to not do it, and we've all done it, but how not to do it? (38:07)
I feel like emotionally connecting with someone in a healthy way takes a lot of inner work. (38:15)
Anna: Yeah. (38:16)
Nina: And a lot of constant. And I know that sounds. Not fun, but constant inspection, almost like what's happening here. Let me take a step back. Let me pause because let's talk about marriage for just a second. Right? (38:31)
All of these, oh, 50% of marriages end in divorce, which like, yeah. I fucking believe it. But if you're in a marriage with somebody, which I personally am, who I love more than anybody other than my baby, obviously it still is like, you decide something about someone and emotionally connect with something at the beginning or even yesterday that is different than today. So, it takes constant, you know, Interpretation and emotional maturity to be like, well, maybe I got this wrong or maybe I need to just listen right now and not talk. I mean, I don't even feel like that's half the battle sometimes. (39:08)
Anna: Yeah. Well, like I just don't talk well. Yeah. And, or asking questions, asking questions too. (39:19)
Nina: I feel like that's like something we can do almost, but asking questions. It's easy when you, but you have to listen to the answers. (39:24)
Anna: Yeah. Yeah. A friend of mine was doing something that I was like first getting really riled up about and then was like, what do you care? Like, why do you care? It's not your life. (39:32)
You know Like why are you all riled up about this? And I realized like part of what was riling me up was I didn't understand it. (39:41)
Nina: Like what she was doing in her life? (39:42)
Anna: Yeah. (39:43)
Nina: And choices she was making. (39:44)
Anna: Okay. Yeah. And not that, I mean, like, it's not about me, but I'm just in the context of emotion saying yeah. Well, it shifted immediately for me when I just said to her. (39:56)
Hey, just curious, why are you going at it like this? Or I didn't say it like that, because that would imply she was going at it incorrectly. I think I said, this feels like a departure for you. Like, I'm just curious. I've said it essentially, like, (40:11)
Nina: Yeah, like what’s up. (40:12)
Anna: Like, I don't feel like I'm caught up in your life. Like, this feels different for your kind of thing. Yeah. And it was actually really good and led to a really good conversation. I was like, huh? How interesting something I'm curious about with marriage is like, (40:26)
Nina: I'm like a marriage expert. I'm a low-key marriage expert. No, I'm kind of low-key commitment-phobic because yeah. (40:30)
Yeah. True. Okay. I proudly not proudly. I am open. Wow. Sorry, man. You can't get away with shit here, man. I'm going to need to go to the hospital for third-degree burns out or that roast. Um, I just wanted to say that it felt very Joe. I'm on a different podcast now. (41:04)
Anna: Oh my God no, he’s like the devil. (41:05)
So, I find it interesting because when your husband, I don't want to say his name in case his name is Wei. I'm like, he loves that. No, I'm kidding. If he's changing or being different. Yeah. Does that make you uncomfortable? (41:29)
Nina: No, I love it actually, because he's like the steadiest man. Yeah. I've met a person, meaning that I know without a shadow of a doubt that I can trust him Forever. So, whatever he changes around that, I don't give a shit. (41:47)
Anna: Got it. Cool. Do you, babe? (41:48)
You know, but, uh, because I know that he will have my back no matter what, I know that he cares about our family at first and foremost. So, anything else that changes outside of that is like, cool with me Right. The track record is there. (42:06)
So, it's not yeah. It's threatening to you every day. He's never given me a reason not to trust him. You know, we've been through shit as far as like both of us. I don't think he'd mind me saying this. I hope, but I mean, he's an artist, so it's kind of implied. We both have an emotional kind of, I don't want to say episodes, but we both are deep feelers is what I'm going to say. Yeah, so we process those emotions very differently. He likes to work, you know, I do too, but I also like to go to bed or whatever, you know, he likes to be in a studio. (42:37)
Anna: I was curious about that actually if he was working at night, (42:39)
Nina: yeah. He likes to work at night. He comes in a lot and we will watch the voice with headphones on while our babies are next to us and our dog. (42:46)
It's hilarious. We like whisper talk. Yeah. But he likes to work at night because he's always around during the day and, you know, whatever, but we emotionally handle things very differently, even though we feel. Very similar about a lot of things. I mean, he'll see like a plastic bottle and be so upset, like any, like those kinds of things. (43:08)
Can like let alone, like someone getting hurt like could really rip him apart internally. But it was interesting while we were in the hospital, like he was so steady and I knew he was terrified, you know? And like I asked him when it was over, I'm really scared. He's like, I was fucking terrified. I was fucking terrified, but he was so steady, you know, and it just showed me again. (43:30)
Thank God. Thank God. Because I had this image of this ex-boyfriend. Oh my God, it would be really fun if he was listening to this part. When I used to go to the ICU for treatments for Crohn's, he walked me. He was like, I'm going to come with you. And I was like, very obviously about him and like his moment to like, be a good boyfriend. (43:50)
And he walks me into the door of the ICU and he sees people, you know, cancer patients and he's like, I can't do this. And he leaves me there. And I was like, you are such a loser. Yeah. So, my husband is like the complete opposite. So, to your question, no, it doesn't make me uncomfortable. (44:09)
Anna: So, so granted, I did experience a lot of trauma, I would say under the age of like 18, you know, like a lot. And then it kind of continued. I still had some other shit happen. I think I would still be an empathetic person or like not a total. Goblin, like without that drama, like I think it's made me take too much care for other people's feelings. I think I've had to learn, like I've had to learn a different lesson of like boundaries and not taking things on board and like how to witness and those sorts of things. (44:45)
And I think sometimes being intuitive is really hard because it's like people will be telling me something and I'm picking up on something and I don't know what it is. Are they lying to me? and it's like, no, they're lying to themselves. (44:57)
Nina: You know, hard on your body too. (44:58)
Anna: Yeah. And can be, it's really like, like I've come to a real place in my life. (45:06)
I've had so many things happen to me that made people really uncomfortable. You know, I've had abuse, I've had a parent die, I've had cancer. I've had a lot of experiences that people are like (45:15)
Nina: All the things that people don't want to talk about. (45:16)
Anna: It's so true. Like for real. And I'm like, I know. Cancer, but I had cervical cancer. (45:23)
So, I also had to talk about my vagina all the time, which wasn't high on my list at that time, you know? I mean ever like I'm not really always trying to be like, should we reference my vagina passively in a way? It just was I mean, at the time it was so mortifying when people are like, what kind? And I'm like sort and I say cervical and they're like, oh, especially men too, who were like what's I don't know what that is. I'm like, it's part of the, part of the vaginal canal. Yeah. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it. (45:48)
Nina: First of all, it’s so deeply depressing that they don't know what a cervix is, the layers, or like, if you told me, you went blank, testicular cancer, I wouldn't be like, oh, what's that? (45.58)
Anna: Do you know how many times I've told my kid what a vagina is? Like, he needs to know that this is a vagina. That's his therapy. He's like, (46:06)
Nina: She does bring it up all the time. (46:07)
Anna: He asked he's like, does that person have a China? Did I love it? But anyway, I love little kid questions. Like they're the most. Why? Why? Yeah, but I think dead parents club, like a lot of things, I think what we've been doing with saw and like getting clear on like, what are we doing? (46:28)
What do we want to do? You know? I'm like, if I feel like I've never been as like jacked up until in my life until now of like, I'm so Over people who are feeling and like trying to be good people, whatever that means like to themselves and to their loved ones and the people in their lives, like getting disregarded or told that that's not important or they're weak, the association of emotions and weakness makes me crazy. (47:00)
And well, I shouldn't even use that word. Because I'm like, look at most of the greatness in our world for me, like what makes life worth living? It's not money. It's what I've felt with other people. It's like when I've cried, laughing with somebody. It's art, I've seen, it's a performance I've shared. Those are the things that have made me feel the most alive when I'm emotional. When I feel the most alive. How the fuck are we disregarding that? How were we saying that that's a sign of weakness? (47:29)
Nina: I feel like we should just drop the mic now. (47:30)
Anna: I just feel like we've gotten so lost. And so, to me to be so loud, you know, and like for me it started a bit, it's been interesting. For me, because when I first started doing DBC, like I shared this with you, that, that my mom was like, I don't gotta, it's going to keep you from moving on. And I was like, I'm 40. Like what's moving on in this context, you know, like he'll never not be dead. Like what is moving on? You know? And it's really opened up her and it's really opened up that we are able to have very different conversations. (48:03)
And I think some of it for me was that. I felt the irritation like it was, was it irritating? She doesn't understand that this is like a big thing that happened to me in my life. Yes. But do I need her to validate it? No. And I was very open when I started doing DBC that I had no idea why I was doing it. I was like, I'm just going for the ride. (48:29)
I feel called to do it. I really like the women who are asking me to be involved. It's an hour a week. What apps, let me see what happens. And then it felt really good. And it felt really in alignment with the other work I'm doing and the way I'm even like pivoting my career a bit of just like, I really want to be in service of people who are trying to figure out what to do with the way they feel and to feel better, you know, but it's now brought up for me this Rage. I feel about the denial of feelings, the dismissal of feelings, the exploitation of feelings, you know, it's like this new, I thought, I think, I think with anything that like, I'll get to some point where I just feel neutral about it and it turns out that's a lie. It turns out rage is the answer, (49:08)
Nina: I feel the same. And I think one of the things that we do. Couldn't leave you all with, for our episode, one of a trillion in regards to emotions, is that nothing is too much. You are okay. And absolutely entitled to feel however you want to feel, now to do with that is something else, right? Like to react, to speak to somebody else about it is kind of like step two to like going outward. We have to be comfortable. You know, sitting with it first, I think, yeah. (49:45)
Anna: Like feeling a lot is not a license to wild out. (49:46)
Nina: No, and I think it's also not an invitation to shut down. Right? Like you don't need to shut down and you don't need to wile out. Like you can and will find a middle ground, but it is a lifelong process. And I was thinking about this today, where I was like, My God am I healing again? Are you serious? (50:11)
Anna: Yeah, I think you are. (50.12)
Nina: I'm so done with healing. And then I'm like, Nina, you signed up for this shit and you made it your mission and your job and your wife, bitch, like get over it. And I was like, yeah, you're right. And I felt though for a moment, really triggered honestly, by the thing. That has happened to me in the past, medically where like nobody was taking care of me and nobody was calling me back and calling me back. And it's really hard to be like, this is so hard for me to do, to ask for help to be like, I need you to see me. I need you to make sure that I'm okay. I need you to make sure that I'm going to be okay. (50:49)
And for people to be like, sorry, we missed your call. We'll call you back. Never goodbye. And you're like, okay. All right. My emotional health is the most important right now. And always, but I have to be okay with, and I encourage everyone to also be, you know, invite yourself to be okay with like the stages of healing. (51:10)
And also, just because you weren't good at something yesterday doesn't mean you're going to be good at it today. And It's okay to be like, you know what, I'm having a panic attack right now, or I'm feeling really sad or I'm feeling really this, or I'm feeling really that and sit down or change your environment or whatever you need to do to soothe that doesn't involve, you know, hurting anybody. (51:32)
Anna: Yeah. Preferably don't hurt anyone, but. (51:33)
Nina: Like having a panic attack or having a good weep in therapy or having really big, big, big feelings. There's no point deduction that doesn't mean you're not doing your work. That doesn't mean you're not being an adult. It doesn't mean anything. It really doesn't, you know, and it means you're feeling, it just means you're feeling. (51:57)
I lived very outside my body for a long time. So, when I first started being more embodied, I felt feelings really acutely. So, I would offer that to someone as well, that if, if you're coming back into your body, if you're coming back into allowing your experience, or if you've maybe been numbing your feelings in the past, like a variety of ways I had via substances and definitely with like eating disorder shit. (52:18)
So, if you're coming back, it can be really overwhelming and I would offer that it will get better. You'll build up tolerance. You'll realize that like, not every time you feel something isn't necessarily negative, it just will dial down. So, if you're in that process as well, I remember it so vividly and it was like a code red every time I felt something. (52:39)
And some of it was just because I forgot what feelings felt like. (52:43)
Anna: And if you can just learn, this is the biggest piece of advice I would offer is like if you can start to learn to feel how you feel without making yourself justify it, build a case for it, judge it, but just be like. And I find sometimes what helps me is saying it aloud where I'll be like, I am angry. (53:07)
I am sad. Just helps me. You know, there's another therapist I like on Instagram and she says like, feel heal deal, you know? And yeah. That's the thing, like most of us avoid how we're feeling and then wonder why we're not healing anything and like seeing any progress and how can we, but it's true. So, if you can just start, I think a lot of, I would guess more people have been told the way they felt is wrong or they didn't have the space for it, or they weren't cared for in some way. (53:37)
So that maybe set off the chain of denying feelings, if you can just to give yourself permission, to just feel however you feel in that moment and trust that it's temporary, you won't feel that way forever. And you don't have to make a big case for it that you can literally just be sad and that's okay. (53:56)
You know, that will start to already change things. Cause if you want to know, like how do I get a better job? You need to know how you feel. We all want to make these changes or grow or whatever, but we don't know how the fuck we feel. So, we'll do more episodes. Yeah. So, we'll talk about feelings forever. We have to go now. Yeah,
Nina: But we're so happy you came back.
Anna: Yeah. Thank you.
Nina: Thank you all. We'll see you soon. (54:26)
That's all for today's episode.
Anna: [00:47:06] If there is a topic you want us to discuss, please submit it on our website at thesoulunity.com/how-to-be-human.
Nina: [00:47:12] And if you want to connect with other thoughtful humans, please join us at The SoulUnity. Listeners get two weeks free by going to our website and using the How to Be Human option in the dropdown.
Anna: [00:47:22] Thanks for listening, and remember we're guides, not gurus.