**** Producer's Note: The following is a general transcript of LCC Connect's weekly radio program. Contents include but may not be limited to podcasts, program imaging, announcements, and PSAs. More detailed and accurate transcripts of the podcast episodes featured in this broadcast can be found at LCCconnect.com or by following the links provided in the show notes of this episode. ****

Welcome to Front Row Backstage, the show that takes you behind the velvet ropes of the media world. I'm LCC student Greg Trimmer, and each week we'll explore the stars you see on screen, stage and radio, and the tech and talent making the magic happen behind it. From unsung heroes to spotlight sensations, we've got the stories you won't hear anywhere else. So grab your popcorn and let's dive in. Welcome, guys.

Hey, guys.

Today we're joined by the incredible Errol Gribble. A professional actor and teaching artist with over 25 years of experience. Errol studied theater performance at the University of Michigan and has dedicated his career to both performing on stage teaching aspiring actors. He worked with a range of organizations, from youth theaters to community centers, and taught countless private lessons. Errol's impressive stage credits include performances with renowned theaters like the Purple Rose Theater, Meadowbrook Theater, and the Detroit Repertory Theater. He's also an accomplished film and television actor, appearing in projects like Dial a Prayer alongside Brittany Snow and William H. Macy. Whether on stage, screen, or in the classroom, Errol's passion for storytelling and his commitment to his craft truly shine. Let's dive into his journey and hear about the incredible work he's done. And by the way, it's a beautifully.

Written, very nice intro.

By the way, he. He also happens to be another one of our LCC Connect podcast hosts.

That's right. LCC student in the DMACC program.

Yes, sir.

Fellow host of a podcast. The only comedy podcast, although I don't know. Well, yours is a little bit of everything.

Mine is kind of.

Yeah, well, it's all over the place.

You guys know we're deep in this now. This is. I don't even know what episode this is.

Comedy, drama, horror. Hopefully this will be the horror episode.

But, yeah, he hosts Trolling the Mitten.

Trolling the Mitten.

Very weird show, but very funny and amazing.

Yeah, for those folks listening at home, you should check it out. You should check out all the LCC Connect podcasts, especially if you love lcc. But Troll in the Mitten I think, is like, front row backstage. It sort of has a wider audience, although mine really extends to, like, Michigan. That's kind of it. Yes, sir. There's a lot of inside Michigan jokes, improv, comedy, a little bit of sketch comedy, but yeah.

So let's just get started. What inspired your love for acting?

Okay, this is my favorite story to tell. I was a first grader, and we had our winter pageant, and all the other first graders were reindeer and two third grade Girls and me were cast as snowflakes. I think we did, like, let it, you know, like a little let it snow. Like let it snow.

Let it snow.

Yeah, a little trio. A trio? Is that what they call that?

A trio?

Yeah, I guess a trio of snowflakes. And so, yeah, I remember very distinctly thinking triple duet. Is that a word? I remember thinking, like, not only was it, like, special, right? Like, I got a special costume that none of my other classmates got, but, like, I also got to hang out with, like, these two cute older girls. And I was like, oh, man, this is what's up. So that was the moment that I fell in love with being on stage, with performing in front of people. I was still pretty terrified of it for a long time. It wasn't, I think, until I started really doing narrative stuff. Like, in middle school, we did all the musicals. Everybody does Oklahoma. Oh, probably not anymore. There's new ones.

People do Oklahoma.

Your high school did Oklahom.

Middle school.

Your middle school did Oklahoma. Yeah, my guy. What kind of actors did you guys have in middle school?

Well, I mean, you're looking at one of them.

I mean, fair, fair. But like, Oklahoma is like one of the most dance intensive shows there is.

Oh. I mean, any musical can be non dance intensive. You just don't choreograph it. And you cut the dance ballet.

Like, But Oklahoma, like, uses dance to tell some of the stories. So how do you just not do that?

You cut the dream ballet. That.

It's not even Oklahoma at that point.

That's right. It's a middle school production of Oklahoma. It's not Oklahoma.

It's.

It's.

I was Judd Fry. I was the.

Like, why are we even using. Why are we even saying it's a production of Oklahoma? It's like you took Oklahoma. Took out the best part. And I don't know, like, we kept.

In the, like, assault. That's still.

I mean, that's.

I mean.

All right, but like, like the dream.

Sequence, that's not the best part. The dream sequence is solid.

To be very clear.

Yeah.

It is not the best part.

But yeah, the dream sequences, I mean.

Pertinent to the story. But I don't want to say it's the best.

No, it's traumatizing.

Yeah.

Also traumatizing to be like an eighth grader.

Yeah.

Playing for real.

Like, what do you mean?

I went from.

That's about as bad as There's a guy in one of my theater classes who you guys have already heard from in our Puffs series. Their name Is Josh.

Oh, yeah.

And their high school did a production of Chicago and did not tone it down. And I'm like, that, yes, a little Murderers in prison. But, like, not even just that part. Like, the.

That's a family podcast. Please.

Yeah, that's a little weird.

In my book, I went from seventh.

Grade for high schoolers to be doing that show.

I went from playing Winthrop in seventh grade, the little boy in Music man, to. Which was completely age appropriate, to. Yeah. Jed Fry in 8th grade just a year later, the grizzled old bruh. Yeah.

So what was your high school doing? If your middle school's doing Oklahoma, what was your high school doing?

Well, no. Yeah, we did some racy stuff. We once did a play called Dark of the Moon. There's a story about a witch boy and a conjure woman and this young girl from the town. It's like a town in Appalachian Hills, and she falls in love with the witch boy. But then there's more assault in it. That's pretty terrible. Like, the whole town gets in on it because it's really messed up.

I mean, I guess. I guess, like, I mean, we had parents protest. Oklahoma in middle school is kind of an intense show for middle schoolers.

Dark of the Moon was way more intense. We had, like. Yeah. Christian folks in the community protest.

I mean, I guess. I don't know. My high school did the Phantom.

Oh, okay.

Did Phantom of the Opera.

Man, that's a lot. How'd you pull that off? Oh, you probably just cut cool stuff. No, like, we did.

We did not cut anything.

So you have, like. What's the big thing? Like the.

The chandelier? Yeah, yeah, we rented the chandelier and swung it over the audience.

You did?

Yeah.

Oh, my gosh. That's a lot of brownies being sold at the bake sale.

Well, I went to Grand Lodge.

Is that. I don't know this area enough. Is Grand Ledge the rich people, the Ledges?

No. Sort of. Not really. It's just that we had very generous boosters that had, like, most of these school. Local schools are using their theater shows to help raise money. For their athletic stuff? No, for their, like, choir and band programs.

Oh, yeah.

But we had very generous boosters that had already oversupplied what we needed for our choir programs. So we were kind of just like, well, let's go for broke. Like, if we break even. Oh, well. And actually, on the Phantom, we lost fifteen hundred dollars.

Sure. Those chandeliers are expensive.

Yeah. We rented, like, the whole chandelier when we Did Beauty and the Beast. We rented an entire rotating castle set.

Oh, did you ever do Peter Pan? You could fly people.

No, no.

That's a thing.

However, for Beauty and the Beast. You're talking about flying people.

Oh, yeah.

Beauty and the Beast. The Beast's transformation back to the prince. We flew him up into the grid, and he came back down as the prince.

So unnecessary. Just what a flex. You could pay actors. That's what you could do with the money.

Yeah, but you can't pay high schoolers.

No. Yeah, nor should you. Let's be honest. I didn't deserve to get paid for my high school act. Should you.

Nor should you, he says. Yeah, we did the Phantom. We did the Beauty and the Beast. What else? Oh, we did Les Mis. Oh, okay, I got to play Thenadie.

Who's that?

That's the, like.

What is he saying?

Master of the house.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's the master of the house.

He's the innkeeper dude.

Yeah, yeah.

He's the dude that treats Gazette like a slave.

Yeah, he's real bawdy and raunchy, and.

He'S a. I can't say the word that he is on here.

Sure, that's. That's a very fun part to play, though.

Yeah.

Yeah. So we did that. We did. We did west side Story. We did.

Who were you on west side Story?

I was Action.

Action Jackson.

I was Action.

Action Gray.

He's one of the. He's one of the. He's one of the Jets.

Sure.

He doesn't have a lot of speaking lines, but he conveys a lot of emotion from his face.

Was Action the name you chose for your character?

No, no, no, no. That's actually the name of one of the Jets. And then we also did White Christmas.

Oh, wow.

I was General Waverly.

Okay. It feels like not secular enough for a high school, but maybe.

White Christmas.

Yeah, Christmas is in the title. Sound very psychic. See what I mean?

Yeah.

That's why, like, my Christmas pageant wasn't a. Like, we had reindeer and snowflakes, and I'm pretty sure Santa showed up at some point, but it was a winter pageant.

Gotcha. What's your favorite show you've ever done?

Oh, no, you just jump in with the worst question ever. It's so hard. The best movie experience was Dial a Prayer, of course. But I think my favorite show that I've done, I've got to do it a couple times at both the Williamson Theater in Williamson, Michigan, and the. At Farmers Alley in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Two Small professional theaters and recently had a stint back on Broadway again. But a one man show entitled Fully Committed. Interesting. So you play and it's sort of irrelevant now because things don't work like this, but the lead character is a young struggling actor in New York who is working in the basement of a fancy restaurant and he's taking reservations, which everything's done online now, so you don't do that. But so in the play you're in the basement and there's the bank of calls from customers calling in. You also have a chef's phone in the space, Mater D's phone or the upstairs phone. That's like three different characters could be at the upstairs podium, including the mater D. And then you play as the actor, all the characters. So you play both sides of the conversation.

One person shows intrigue me sometimes. Peppermint Creek is working on a one woman show.

Yeah. Yeah. What's the show?

I don't know what it's called. Yeah.

So Obviously you did seven, I believe, 37 different characters, so. No, in that one. Yeah. I would hate talking to each other.

I would, I would hate myself.

It was great.

I would, I would. The hard part is I would be crying myself to sleep every single night.

Yeah.

Okay, so. So here's a question then.

Yeah.

When you're in a one man show, what do rehearsals look like? Because you're the only cast member with a director. Is there even a stage manager?

Of course. Okay.

All right.

Yeah. I mean this, it really is a two person show.

They just hire a stage manager to like. I mean, for one person in a cast.

Well, in fact, the first time I did it, we had a. Well, first I should say most small professional theaters run real bare bones because you know your money is going towards like up keep and stuff for the building and production costs, of course. But paying professionals costs money and union houses have to pay union rates. And even though it's not even really technically a living wage, it's still a lot of money for a small theater. So that's why a lot of times they'll do small. Whatever.

What do those rates look like?

Around three to five hundred bucks a week, depending on the size of the house.

I have a friend that just got offered a role in Merrily We Go along and he declined it because they only were gonna give him 75 bucks a week for the role he was doing.

Was he non union?

Yeah, he's not union. But it was also like. It was also a very minor role in the show and it was. He would have had to drive to Midland for rehearsals. Like, 75 books a week. Wouldn't even have covered his gas.

Yeah.

Like.

So one of the ways you can join the Stage Actors Union is by accruing points from working in professional houses. And after 50 points, you can. Or 40, I don't know anymore. You can join. So my first few.

Or you just pay a bunch of money to join.

Well, you have to pay a bunch of money no matter what. But unless you have the points or unless someone offers you a role that's an equity role, you can't join. And so I joined by getting enough points. And so my first shows in Ann Arbor at the now on Performance Network Theater in Ann Arbor. I missed that space. I was getting paid 50 bucks a weekend. Wow. Yeah. Well, one, I could take the bus, so it was easy.

That's not so bad, though.

Yeah. But also, I was like, I need points. I want to be a professional.

You mentioned you're in Oklahoma in middle school. So you've done musicals before then?

I have. Professionally. I was in a production of man of La Mancha.

Okay.

I played Sancho. I love him. I don't. I think that's the song, and then I think that's it. So when I was in high school and I knew I wanted to do this for a living, and I. My parents were like, we really want you to go to U of M. Cause it would be great. And they're insane, I guess, not thinking about how much money it would cost them.

Hey, if they're paying for it.

Yeah. There was a lot of. What do they call those things? Scholarships. Too small scholarships. So I looked at the audition process for the musical theater program, and there was a lot of dance involved, and there was a lot of, like, sight reading and stuff, too, which I didn't feel very comfortable with. And so that's. I learned early on, like, I was. Street theater is more my avenue. And film theater and film. Musical theater. Not really. I mean, not that I don't love doing it and not that I won't do it sort of locally or whatever, but, like, no one should ever pay to see me do a musical.

I'm so. Did you do any musicals in high school?

Yeah. What'd you do in high school? Pirates of Penzance.

What is that?

Oh, you don't know the Pirates of Penzance? No, I am the very modern.

Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay, okay, okay.

I played.

You sing that now. And I know what.

I mean.

I know what you're talking about.

I played the Constable or like the police police chief. And it was like a baritone bass. And that was not my. I don't know how I ended up getting cast in a role where I couldn't physically sing the part. It was too low. But I did. So that also added to me hating musicals.

Actually, the only reason I ever heard about that musical in that song specifically was because of a show that was on the CW called Heart of Dixie.

Big fan of Heart of Dixie, are you?

Oh, yes, I'm a huge fan of Heart of Dixie. So in the show they're like local community theater guy was putting on a review of a bunch of. Just with a bunch of different songs from a bunch of different musicals.

Little cabaret night.

One of the town doctors had to sing that song on stage and he was having such a hard time memorizing it because there's so many words in that song in a very short period of time. So it was a whole thing. Very minor part of the show. Theater is not even what that show's about. It's about a chick named Zoe Hart that wanted to be a cardiothoracic surgeon and then failed in New York. So she came down to bluebell, Alabama and to work in a small town practice. And it turns out that the dude that left her the practice was her real father. But she didn't know that she needed to have a real father because she thought that her father that was raised her was her real father.

Oh, double twist.

And so it was a whole thing. And apparently her mom had an affair on a cruise or something.

Oh, man.

And anyway, then just like four seasons of her life in this town of bluebell, Alabama, which she initially thinks is just going to be temporary until. Because her, her chief of surgery in New York told her if she wanted the cardiothoracic fellowship, she needed to spend a year as a gp.

For those of you tuning in, welcome back to the Heart of Dixie podcast.

Anyway, sorry, tangents. So you mentioned your University of Michigan. You got your degree in theater from Michigan?

No, I. Let's, let's put in a break sound effect there.

Okay.

I studied theater performance at U of M. Oh, okay.

I did not get a degree.

I also had undiagnosed ADHD at the time.

Don't we all?

Yeah, I think I'm convinced we. I was about two and a half, three years ago I was diagnosed. I'm well in my 40s at this point. So my first time in college was not great. My theater classes were really great and I did have. I was often the first student off book, you get a 10 page Shakespeare script, a scene, and. All right, in two days, it was a Monday class, come back Wednesday, off book. And I would be the only one who really was off book. And it was because I wasn't doing homework in any of my other classes. So, yeah, they were like, why are your grades so bad? You're such an incredible student. I'm like, oh, yeah. And here I don't like algebra. Actually. I didn't even have to take a math class.

I think I got a 3.5 in college algebra.

Hey, all right. I'm working. I'm actually in college algebra currently.

Do you know who Andy Kalis is?

Of course I do.

Okay. Did you know that Andy Kalis's first college degree was not a theater degree?

I did. I don't remember what it was. Was business. No, no.

He got a bachelor's in math.

That's right.

From Eastern Michigan University.

Oh, I didn't know it was from emu. That's fun.

Like, think about that. An actual theater person knowing math. That's not a. That's not a.

Well, we're two theater people who know math.

That's not a common thing.

I think we're starting a new track.

Did you say you didn't like algebra?

I don't, but I'm doing okay this time around. That's because I had adhd. Whatever. Yeah, that was the undiagnosed adhd.

So you took classes at U of M?

I did. I have the training of a student from U of M, but I never got my degree.

Okay, so how do you think that time at U of M shaped your path in theater?

Immensely, I think in, like, three sort of major ways. Like, one, it solidified my love of theater performing. Two, it was like this, like, really wonderful foundation of, like, skills. I think that a lot of people don't realize that acting and singing and playing guitar, like, playing instruments. A lot of painting, sculpting, art forms involve skills that must be learned. And, like, there's talent and whatever, but, like, yeah, there's skills. And a lot of people, especially with acting, people sort of assume if I just learn my lines and show up to set, I'll be fine. And there's skills involved. Just like building a birdhouse. Oh, yeah. I don't know why acting uses birdhouse analogy a lot.

I have never. In all of my theater classes so far, I have never heard Andy Paige or Blake use that.

The birdhouse analogy.

Use the birdhouse analogy once.

Maybe that was just my generation. It was always like you gotta know how to build a birdhouse. I mean.

But Andy's been teaching here for 30 years. So he would be your generation, theoretically.

Well, yeah. He's a math guy though, so we can't trust math guys.

Yeah, no, and then to be clear, I trust Andy.

I trust Andy.

I trust Andy with my life. He is the most amazing dude ever.

For real. Do the listeners know who he is? He's the head of the theater department here.

He's not the head.

Oh, the foot.

He's.

He's just the heart. He's a faculty member who's professor.

Who's the. Who's the, like, dean of the theater?

Well, there's not really a dean. Well, there is a dean, but it's. The dean is a dean of more than just theater. However, the main producer. Slash. Oh, I guess lead faculty, I guess would be the best.

Yeah.

Like the quote unquote head of the theater department, which is Paige Duncan.

Yeah, it would be Paige. Yeah. Yeah. Who is also another wonderful person.

Paige is amazing.

Yeah.

I actually have two classes with Paige this semester. One of them is acting one, which is very interesting class where you're like, first half of the semester you're learning about contemporary acting. In the second half of the semester you're like putting on a show at the college.

Oh, cool.

So, yeah, that's a fun one. And then she is co teaching acting for the camera with Barry.

Oh, that's right. Finally, we're doing it together. I love it. Although I don't know. No, that's not totally true. They should be using DMACC students too.

Barry is very accomplished in this industry.

Yeah. Do you remember Barry's last name?

Nope.

Oh, no. We're terrible people.

I just call him Barry.

So he's an adept, skilled and very experienced cinematographer from Los Angeles.

Very, very experienced. He doesn't like to throw his credits around. So I'm not. I won't know.

Yeah.

Drop or anything.

Which is really funny and very sort of like on brand with a lot of cinematographers. Whereas, like, actors are desperate to throw our brain.

Like I worked on this set with Robert Downey Jr. I'm so cool.

Yeah. Like, I'm telling like Baggy Kroger about.

He's like, he, he like anytime we ask him questions about people that he's worked with.

Yeah.

He like, gets uncomfortable. It's really cute.

Anyway, he's probably signed a bunch of NDAs and he can't talk about it anyway.

No, because he's. He talks about it. He's just comfortable about it.

So the third.

But anyways, so.

So can I finish my.

Sorry, you were.

Yeah, sorry.

Sorry.

So you're okay. We love to talk. This is why podcasts are good for us. So the third reason, I think why U of M really solidified. I was introduced to theater of the oppressed, but also like the work of like Bertolt Brecht and like activism theater and like how theater is used as a tool in society, not just as like a way to entertain people. That's been a huge part of my life too.

That's cool. Well, we have much more to talk about and we're running a little bit out of time.

Yeah, sorry. So somebody loves to talk about. Come back.

Well, you know what? Listen, so I. I think we're gonna turn this into a two parter. Okay. And you guys can come back for part two. Thanks for tuning in to front row backstage. We hope you enjoyed this week behind the curtains of the media world. Don't forget to like us on Facebook and follow us on Instagram for more information. And join us next week for more stories from the front lines of entertainment. Until then, stay tuned because whether it's on stage, behind the scenes, or over the airwaves, the real action is everywhere.

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This is Bob Myers from the Historical Society of Michigan with a Michigan History moment. During the 19th and early 20th centuries, Michigan's white pine forests fell to the loggers, saws and axes. One stand of more than 8,000 acres of trees survived, thanks thanks to Karen Hartwick, who gave it to the people of Michigan in honor of her late husband. Ironically, Karen Hartwick's father and her husband both made their fortunes in logging. Karen's father, Nels Mickelson, came to America as a penniless Danish immigrant in 1866. Settling in Manistee, he began working in the logging industry. Mickelson saved his money and was eventually able to go into business with Rasmus, Hansen and Ernest Salling and Grayling. By 1895, the firm of Salling, Hansen & Co. Had logged almost 60,000 acres of northern Michigan forest. The company retained more than 50,000 uncut acres, including the land that would become Hartwick Pines State Park. Karen Mickelson grew up in Grayling and attended Grayling High School, where she met her future husband, Edward Hart. After high school, Edward went into the military academy at West Point while Karen went to Oberlin College in Ohio. After serving in the Spanish American War, Edward returned to Grayling and married Karen. In 1898. He resigned from the army and the young couple moved to Jackson. There, Edward launched a successful career in logging and lumber production. Edward returned to the army after the United States entered the World War I. He went to France but died of cerebral spinal meningitis in March 1918 at the age of 46. In 1927, a grieving Karen Hartwick donated 8,236 acres of forested land near Grayling to the State of Michigan as a memorial to her late husband. The terms of her gift stipulated that the land be used for park and conservation purposes. The gift also required the State of Michigan to erect a building on the site to honor the memory of Edward E. Hartwick and the logging industry. That structure, built by the Civilian Conservation Corps, served as the Hartwick Pines State Park Welcome Center. For decades. Karen Hartwick attended Hartwick Pines State Park's dedication in 1935. She died in 19 at the age of 78. Today, visitors enjoy the park with its logging museum, old growth forest, campground and trails. This Michigan history moment was brought to you by michiganhistorymagazine.org.

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Welcome to a psycho delicious conversation on mental health issues and trends from two local mental health professionals in the greater Lansing area. I'm Michael Stratton, lmsw.

And I'm Morgan Bowen, dnp, pmhnp. And we're here to provide you with a deep dive into the human experience of consciousness and beyond. Our aim is to be educational and entertaining. So just kick back and open your ears and your minds.

Hey, I'm Mike Stratton.

And I'm Morgan Bowen.

And we are here talking about being lost and then being found. This is part two of a two part series. If you want to really know what's going on, listen to the part before this. Before you listen to this part.

Is this where we learn how to find, get found, be found?

We got, we got to come up with a solution. If they're, if they're already lost, will they find their way here? Would they? Well, they found their way, actually they found God. This is interesting. I'm getting a phone call from somebody, they're lost. This is a therapist from Hawaii who's calling me. Anyway, intriguing. So this is an interesting thing. Well, this just hit me when I see couples, well, actually when I see individuals too and they come in and they have a problem and usually they've told me over the phone what their problem is. So when they come in, I will ask them. Tell me something about yourself that has nothing to do with why you're here.

So that's a good question.

Whether they know it or not, what I'm asking them to. You've called me for a problem, I would like you to tell me the solution because that's what they're going to do because they're going to tell me who they really are, what their values are, what their identity is, where they're at in life, all of those kinds of things. So you find that most people dive into their personality and who they are. They'll tell me things like, I like video games as a kid, I like video games, I like to hunt and fish. Or I like, I really like music or I really like. They'll tell me a passion that they have and then you go into how did you come to like that? Or tell me more about that. And then they'll tell you the story of what they're passionate about. You know, what they really so identity values. I mean all those things Are inroads into beginning to help a person and find themselves because they know a lot about themselves already. Just something has shifted in their life.

That they feel there's a cloudy lens.

Yes.

That's interesting. When I'm working with somebody in addiction, and oftentimes when you're doing the intake, you ask what they like to do. And it's frequently that people will say, not necessarily just an addiction or substance use, but other times, too, they'll say, I don't know. I don't know what I like to do anymore. And so then I will ask, what did you used to like to do? You know, what were things that you. You did before that, you know, brought you joy? And they would. People usually can tell you that.

Yeah.

And. And that can be an inroad just into kind of understanding.

Yeah. With substance abuse, you ask people what.

They like, and that's such a form of being lost.

I like getting high. You know, they like. They like getting high. They like using drugs, that kind of thing.

Yeah. Frequently they won't know what they like to do outside of that or, you know, not in control conjunction with that.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I'm just reflecting that addiction or substance use disorders is a. Is an extreme form of being lost.

Well, the diagnostic. My guess is that you have a particular way of looking and kind of going through a set of questions with people that tells you, you know, we talked in the first part about making a map. You're making a diagnostic map of like, oh, it sounds like you're depressed. Oh, it sounds like you're anxious. So it sounds like, you know, maybe this medication would help. Maybe this medication. Is that. Is that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I go through, you know, if I'm doing an intake, we have a kind of a general idea of where I'm going and from talking with the person initially and. And then I am doing rule out. So thinking about this and then thinking about this and asking questions to, you know, help to identify what diagnosis I'm. I'm thinking or I'm trying to rule out, and along the way, trying to learn more about the person and trying to do it all at the same time.

This is kind of a metaphor in a way. But if someone comes to you and they have a problem and they describe the problem, and you have a sense in talking to them for a little while, you have a sense of what the problem really might be. So here's a metaphor that I might use with people, because sometimes they come and they say, here's what the problem is. And as they talk, you say, oh, gosh, well, that is an issue, isn't it? But then there's also this problem. So if someone came to you and they said, my house is full of smoke, I want the smoke out of my house, and you're like, yeah, well, your kitchen is on fire. I don't want to do anything with the kitchen. I just want the smoke out of my house. So sometimes it's. You see something that's feeding what they're having a problem with. So substance use is a really excellent example of that, where someone is using to the. To the extent that they are impairing themselves. And it's.

And a lot of times thinking or in some ways it's helpful for them.

It's a solution.

Yeah, starts solution. Exactly. And as a clinician, as somebody that is evaluating the situation and thinking about things that are contributing to what is the problem, there can be kind of side things, side problems that it is going to be really hard to clear the smoke without first dealing with the fire in the kitchen. And maybe the fire in the kitchen isn't what you have identified, it's really the smoke. But we might have to talk about changing some things. And that's where the work is that you mentioned in the previous podcast. And what we are doing with folks and people oftentimes are very uncomfortable and in a bad place. But also there's resistance in changing things.

The tension between what they describe that they want and what you might see, like, oh, gosh, it would really help if we put out that fire. But if you point it out to them and they say, you know, I'm really good with that fire, that fire is okay with me. I don't want it to consume the whole house, but it's okay. Then, you know, you're looking at basically kind of harm reduction models while you're talking to them about, let's see if we can get you so that you're in a different mood or so that you feel more active or something like something along those lines. There are things that people can do to help themselves and that, you know, we talked about Stutz. In the first one, Stutz talks about three areas that he thought were really, really helpful for people. And the first one is, you have to increase your life force. And to increase your life force, you got to get your body moving.

Oh, okay.

You gotta. It's interesting to me. I will talk to people about studies that have been done about people, people who exercise regularly and then people who are antidepressant for a Moderate level for a low level depression or a moderate level of depression. Exercise does just as well over a period of some months.

Sure, yeah.

Now that's not always the case and it's not always advisable for a severe depression, but.

Well, it certainly is not going to hurt.

It's not going to hurt.

Well, I guess unless you have some sort of major limitation. Body limitation.

Well, it's funny you say that because actually I do have something like that. But I have found that even if I do like low impact yoga for like 10 minutes automatically for the rest of the day, I have energy. And it's not high energy, it's nothing big. It's just lots of stretching and that's pretty much it. And I still have more energy, so it definitely helps. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did yoga yesterday. I'm sore from it today. But it's. Do you do the high impact? I do. It's, it's a, it's an hour long class. At the end of the class I said, that's not bad for an 80 year old man. But what was it? Unfortunately, I'm not 80.

You were increasing vitality. Is that what, what was the.

It was an hour long yoga classes.

But what was that?

Okay, so the first one is life force. Life force. So it's not just. Yeah, so move, get enough sleep, take a walk in the woods, eat good food, you know, just do things that charge your body up, you know, that helps you that way.

This is a very. Nursing rooted nurses love to talk about those.

Yes. And it's true. Because it's true. Drink water. We have water.

I always say it's the most boring answer that nobody wants to talk about or hear. But the things that we do and put into our bodies have a direct impact on how we feel. All of the building blocks that you put into your body create all of the chemicals that drive what's happening.

We are what we eat. Yeah. I try to get an apple in every day. But the second thing is relationships.

I was saying that apple is not enough. You need more than an apple, Michael. You need an apple with a cider, something.

I have a side of a cheeseburger.

That's what I have.

I'm sorry. Oh, gosh. Getting goofy.

We're losing it.

So the second thing is relationships. We're getting lost is what we're doing. Yeah, exactly. We'll get out of it. So relationships are really, really important. And hanging out with people that you care about and getting that, giving validation, getting validation from those relationships really help a person Feel charged up and help people to. I think that's the popularity of podcasts these days too. I think people are so isolated and so stuck on their screens that when they're doing something and they're listening to a podcast, they feel engaged. They feel like they're being spoken to.

Well, I've reflected on this quite a bit in the last couple weeks as well. So is that a false sense of engage or connection? You know, so people.

No, we are their friends.

Yeah.

Our current podcast aside, you should continue listening to the. To the four listeners we have. But, you know, I see quite a few people, your clients and in my life, you know, friends, family, who are very engaged with online communities. Yeah. So they are at home and that, you know, they have various channels, discord channels or social media streams, and that's their primary form of socialization. And they're incredibly important relationships for them, but they're not in person. And this is in the post Covid era of some folks which we're seeing more adults, young adults who went through Covid and their socialization ability to socialize was abruptly stopped. So the online or virtual relationships were the bread and butter of connection. But I have just been wondering more and more and looking into what people think about whether or not that is analogous. Is that the same thing as having in person, going out to coffee, hanging out, peer group, what we would think of friendships or relationships prior to.

Well, I will say that my.

And this is conjecture, actual in person.

Social interactions have decreased significantly since 2020. Yeah. I don't work with friends as much. And it's not to say that I.

Don'T because I still do.

But it's not like it used to be. I think it's a substitute for it. Thank God we have it. Thank God we have Zoom. I did Zoom. I'm sure you did Zoom sessions.

I still do.

Two years. Yeah, I still do Zoom too.

Prior to 2020.

I did not do it prior to 2020. I did it after Covid hit. But here, here was something that was weird for me. The first client I had that came back and we sat opposite each other and I had not sat with a person and done therapy for like a year and a half, maybe or longer. And they sat down. I thought, what.

Do we do?

How do I do this?

How do I talk to someone who's.

In the room with me?

It was really weird. What's weird?

It was. And it was weird how weird it was. It was just like, why is this so strange? I did this for decades and now it feels really strange. And then I picked right back up with it.

But yeah, yeah, me too. And this stuff has been coming to my mind because I did have Covid a couple weeks ago and I quarantined. Quarantined and was wearing the mask. And it just brought back a lot of that for me of just what a different. Like that. That was a very unique and strange abrupt change in all of our lives that really has changed everything. I mean, it's changed everything.

Teenagers, especially teenagers who are so hungry for that kind of connection and that they thrive on that and then they were denied it, you know, so.

So I don't have an answer to my own question. And I do not invalidate relations that are virtual or socialization that occurs in alternate, I guess I would say alternative ways. But I have been wondering or just reflecting on what about the connection is important and how is that connection different or facilitated in person, face to face in more traditional or boomer level relationships. Michael. Versus more current. Understand. Because the younger generation has and continues to and will. I can't see it changing. Have very, maybe even most of their primary relationships virtually.

And yes, all the screen time that they have.

And I guess I've also seen younger folks who have a lot of social anxiety when they're in person. So they'll go to college and their in person classes and things are incredibly uncomfortable for them and they don't. They feel uncomfortable talking to people, you know, speaking in front of other people, going up to the professors. And a lot of that is normal. I mean I had that and I think all of us have that at a certain extent when we age. But it's so much, it seems so much more profound for young folks now.

I think it is.

Is.

I think it is. Yeah. So. But just relatedness to other people is so important. And I think that, you know, the social media stuff can be a substitute, but it's a, it's kind of a poor substitute. You know, generally. Well, you're.

But you're a baby boomer. I hear, I hear, I'm hearing.

Okay, I hear about other things. Yeah. I know somebody who's in a book group with people internationally and they're studying a particular author, for instance. And it's like, oh my God, look at that. You know, look how you can do that. You know, you can connect with people in that way. That's really cool. But so anyway, what Stutz says is life force, work on your life force. Secondly, relationships feed your relationships. And then thirdly is it gets back to kind of the work, but the deep work, your own psychological, emotional being comfortable in your own skin, you know, discovering your own. The things we talked about before. What's. What's my identity? You know, What's. What's my meaning in terms of being here? What are my values? What's important to me? If I'm doing the stuff that's important to me, that is when it's value driven. Like, it's not work. Like, this doesn't feel like work to me. No, this feels like fun. Yeah. Doing the Agrew supreme, my jazz radio show, that's not work. I'll put hours into it, but. But it's just. It's fun. It's a blast, right? It's so much. It's so, so cool. It is cool, man. But then the other thing is to access resources, you know, when you do get stuck, to be able to. If it's a friend, if it's, you know, a loved one, it can be just about anybody. But it could be a professional as well. It could be a doctor, it could be a counselor to check in and say, I think I'm in trouble. I'm really lost, and I can't seem to pull myself out of it, even knowing all these things. I'm doing all these things, and it doesn't seem to be working.

So when somebody would come to see you, a client, do you feel like at the core, really, any client therapist relationship is facilitating somebody who. Who's lost into a space of found, for lack of a better word. But that is kind of the template of a treatment trajectory.

I think. It's a good metaphor for it, I think. And the gift of being lost really is something to be appreciated. The. Oh, gosh, there was a thing. I was gonna say, this comes with age. It was really good.

It'll come back to Mike's lost and when people come. And of course, it varies, but do most people have a sense of why it is that they are lost or what happened? Or are people just so disoriented?

I think very often people will have some kind of a sense. And they may say, I'm depressed, or I'm unhappy with my marriage, or I think I'm using too much pot, or I'm. You know, I have trouble with this person in my life. You know, they. They usually have some framework for it, but sometimes they don't. Or sometimes the. The focus they have shifts as they go on, and they get deeper into the weeds, so to speak. And we do start talking about things like consciousness and. And the the whole arc of their life journey and where they are with this. Yeah.

I was thinking about when I went back to the gym and I had a friend who was like, you should join my gym. And I said, okay, but I gotta work out and get in shape before joining the gym because I don't wanna. I don't wanna come and be completely.

You know, I don't wanna look like.

I need to go to a gym.

Exactly. And so my friend was like, so you want to get in shape to join a gym? That is what the point of getting joining. And I was like, okay, I see where you're going with this. So I'm wondering, you know, when somebody's lost and doesn't. But doesn't know, is just so disoriented and doesn't have a sense of what's going on, just feels very disconnected or detached or unhappy, but doesn't know why and just kind of spew comes in and spews. But.

Well, the metaphor I used before with Miles Davis of I want you to play what you don't know how to play. So there's some of that, like, let's do what you know how to do. But then here's. Let's try this other thing. Because I think one thing that happens with people is that they fall into, like, a rigid pattern of like, this is how I deal with life. This is what I do when I'm stressed and it's not working anymore. And so the idea of, like, well, let's try something new and if they can get with that versus, like, no, I'm going to push away from that. I'm going to resist that.

Yeah, way to frame it. Because you could be lost with that while you're doing the same thing, but what you're doing just isn't working anymore. Well, it's not getting you the same results.

And I just remembered the thing I was going to say. I remember a therapist who said he thought the most important part of therapy occurred before the client walked in the door. And that was making the call. And it's just the notion of, like, something's got to change. I'm going to take action. I'm doing something now, and I'm reflecting on that.

And also for our listeners, because I'm sure we have three listeners who have been in therapy before and one or two who have never been in therapy.

You're up in your orders now, but it's.

How do you know when it's time to go to therapy? And so now I'm reflecting in My own life because I've been in therapy. I know that's shocking to all of you. A few times. And when has it been that I've been okay, I need to find a therapist. It's now. What is the straw that broke the camel's back? What was the impetus? What was that? And I guess I can't think of any specific one other than a friends who are like, I think you need.

To go back to therapy.

Or like, my. My husband or somebody is like, dude, you gotta get it together.

I was just out in my head. I think I've had five therapists in my life, and I'm in therapy now. Yeah. And. And it's something different drove me to it each time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I always think you need a tune up every once in a while. I mean, and certainly you can have too much therapy. Well, I.

Can you.

Do you, as a working therapist think, you know, somebody comes in and say, you're not. You're not lost. You know where you are, you know, what's the problem?

Well, one thing that I do tell my clients, I say, I'm not the person who tells you, you've had enough therapy, you're done. I think you're over. I'm also not the person who says, you can't leave therapy. We haven't talked about your mother. So I think the customer is always right when it comes to that. The client knows when they've. When they've got what they are looking for, basically. And sometimes it's someone with a really short intervention. Other times it's.

Yeah.

You know, when Covid hit, it was like. And since COVID hit, the way I put it is very few people are giving up their chair. You know, I just think life has gotten a lot more stressful with not just that, but the political situation that we're in right now.

Things have changed. Something's changed.

Things have really changed. And it's not normal. This just is not normal stuff that we're going through right now. And a lot of people are really freaked out about it. And so it just accentuates even more the other troubles they might be having in their life of like.

Yeah, well, the other thing I was thinking too, both in last episode as we were talking, is the role faith. You know, so therapy is not the answer or the guidance. That is not the shaman for everybody. Because, you know, that was something that my father, who was a psychiatrist and worked in mental health for, you know, since the 60s until he passed and really gravitated. And the Idea of a shaman, of a guide, you know, as being a guide or a facilitator for people who are in crisis or going through something. But, you know, therapy or mental health or medication may not be the shaman for everybody. And faith, you know, a religion or a strong relationship with the church or a religious figure is part of a lot of people's journey and is. Is enough. But then I was also thinking that a crisis in faith of I'm floundering and I feel disconnected from my. From the path that is such a crisis for some people. And then maybe they do come in therapy. There's not one path.

There's not one path? No. And I think that there's a number of different. I mean, I think a part of what you were just referencing, Morgan, was the idea of community. And I think people used to get community through church, but you don't see as many people going to church. That's not entirely true. But people have an affinity towards something. They feel like they're part of something bigger than themselves. I think that's a really important component for people.

But the thread there, too, is connection with other people. You cannot find your way out of dark darkness on your own. I would say that that is. I believe that wholeheartedly that you need other people. It doesn't have to be a therapist. It doesn't have to, you know, but it needs to be another person and the darkest.

And hopefully you'll pay them.

Yes. And hopefully you give me a credit card.

I'm sorry.

Well, that's a lot of people's gripe about. It's like, sure, they'll solve my problems if I, you know, have insurance or give them, you know, and it is. I mean, it is a service. It's a professionalization of.

It is whatever.

And we should not get enough.

It's not enough. It's interesting because sometimes a friend isn't enough and you need a therapist, but sometimes a therapist isn't enough and you need other relationships that feed you. I think to have a balance of that is really important.

But at the kernel, at the human condition is that connection with other people. That's what roots. That's what roots you. And provides the anchor. That's what provides the anchor from. And the. What is it? The anis. It's not the anesthetic. But the antidote for being lost is to have the anchor.

Yeah.

There we could be moored.

A psycho. Delicious conversation is meant for educational and entertainment purposes only. It is no substitute for therapy and should not be treated as such if you feel a need for real therapy, you should consult your local provider, Google Therapy, or therapists in your area. Check with community mental Health or a suicide hotline if you are feeling suicidal.

Mike and Morgan welcome your questions, feedback or dilemmas. Feel free to send us an email at a psychodelicious conversation gmail.com that is a psychodelicious P S Y C H O D E L I C I o u s conversationmail.com the views expressed.

On this podcast are solely the opinions of Mike Stratton and Morgan Bowen and do not reflect the views or opinions of any site broadcasting this podcast. Replication of this podcast without written permission is strictly prohibited. This is WLNZ Lansing. You're listening to LCC Connect, a weekly program that features the voices, vibes and vision of Lansing Community College. To find out more about LCC Connect programs or to listen on demand, Visit.

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