0:00:01 Intro Speaker: Welcome to Fresh Takes on Tech, the podcast exploring what’s next in food and agriculture through the lens of innovation and technology. Hosted by Vani Estes, each episode features conversations with people driving change in the produce industry. From entrepreneurs to scientists to industry leaders and policymakers. This isn’t about hype. It’s about real conversations with people who are making a difference.

0:00:24 Intro Speaker: Let’s get into it.

0:00:26 Vonnie Estes: Welcome back to Fresh Takes on Tech, the podcast where we break down the science, the policy and the tech trends that are shaping the future of fresh produce. Today. We’re diving deep, literally into something that’s been building up under the surface for years. Microplastics, nanoplastics, pfas, and heavy metals, the invisible threats that are quietly becoming policy priorities that could change how we grow, sell and eat our food.

0:00:54 Vonnie Estes: With us is Wendalyn Jones, CEO of the Institute for the Advancement of Food and Nutrition Sciences. Wendalyn leads cutting edge research and community efforts focused on emerging science in food safety and health. Today, she’s here to help us separate the science from the headlines and get real about what this means for food and fresh produce. Welcome, Wendland, and so glad to have you.

0:01:18 Wendlyn Jones: Hi, Vani. Thanks for the invitation and thrilled to be joining you today.

0:01:22 Vonnie Estes: Yeah. So let’s start at the macro level with microplastics. What are micro and nanoplastics and how are they showing up in the food and beverage world, especially in produce?

0:01:34 Wendlyn Jones: Right, absolutely. So, and I love that, starting at the macro level for talking about little teeny tiny things. And really, microplastics and nanoplastics are tiny plastic particles that result from the breakdown of larger plastic materials. Right. So sometimes they can be manufactured at that small size. But most of what we wind up talking about is the natural breakdown of larger pieces of plastic. So there are actually definitions of microplastics and definitions of nanoplastics. And the definitions are a little squishy in that different countries, different organizations will define them. But generally it’s accepted, accepted that microplastics are things that are smaller than 5 millimeters, whereas nanoplastics are smaller than 1 micrometer or 1 micron. Now you’re sitting there and I’ll just say I just used all these words and it sounds like, wait a second, I didn’t pay that much attention to metrics in second grade.

0:02:40 Wendlyn Jones: That’s okay. Let’s put some context in it. And we can quickly note that a strand of hair is, is about 70 microns or 70 micrometers. So we’re talking about something with nanoplastics that is really, really small, like, you’re not gonna necessarily be able to even see it, whereas microplastics are really teeny, tiny things that you might be able to see with your eyes.

0:03:05 Vonnie Estes: That’s helpful. Helpful context. So there’s the science of these things, and then there’s the fear around it. And we’re seeing alarming headlines about plastics in our food. I know, it comes up in my feed. All from your vantage point. What does the actual science say about exposure and risk to these in our food?

0:03:26 Wendlyn Jones: So I’m going to bottom line it, which is, at the end of the day, we need some more science to be able to fully answer that question. Okay. There is lots of reports out there.

0:03:38 Wendlyn Jones: There’s also lots of hype out there around what are these plastic particles, right? What are they doing to our health? And I think it’s important to realize that part of this, dare I say this news wave on this can be tied to the fact that we’ve just gotten much better at detecting these particles.

0:03:59 Wendlyn Jones: So this is perhaps a case, at least for some of them, where, nope, the plastics have always, quote, been there. Right. But we’re now all of a sudden being able to measure them. So an analogy in this space is thinking about NASA and looking at what different telescopes can. Can detect. So, you know, several years ago, more than I want to admit, there was a whole hoopla about, you know, the Hubble telescope, right? Well, now you got the new next wave with the Webb Space Telescope and the Webb systems now detecting galaxies that the Hubble never could. So this is something where you were really detecting things that perhaps have always been there.

0:04:47 Wendlyn Jones: And it’ type of advancement in instrumentation that, you know, has led to some of these reports around small, tiny particles being. Being around whether it’s in food or in beverages, etc.

0:05:05 Wendlyn Jones: Now, if you allow me, I can kind of expand into kind of the second part of it, which is, what’s the science versus what, what is the hype?

0:05:14 Wendlyn Jones: So the first part in understanding this from a human health and even an environmental health perspective is to start by looking at what is that overall risk? Okay, so the first part is, what is the hazard? That is, is it harmful? Okay, then what is that dose response component to it? So how much of it do you need to ingest before there’s an effect that’s observed? The third part is then the exposure. So I know it’s hazardous.

0:05:45 Wendlyn Jones: I know how much I have to have to have that response. But then how much am I actually exposed to, which is the exposure assessment? And then the final part comes into that overall risk characterization step. So where we are with it, I would say, is generally speaking, we know that these particles are there.

0:06:07 Wendlyn Jones: So we almost can do an exposure assessment, but we don’t know yet whether they’re hazards. Right. Know whether there’s a dose response. We don’t even know if there’s any correlation there. So as we’re looking at this, this is where an understanding and bringing in toxicologists, exposure experts, risk assessors, et cetera, as well as others, can really help be tapped to advance our understanding both on the human health as well as on the environmental health side.

0:06:36 Wendlyn Jones: Because there’s just whipshaws of report. Just because something’s detected, it doesn’t mean that there’s necessarily harm with it.

0:06:44 Vonnie Estes: Interesting. Because I guess when I’m trying to think about what I’ve seen and the headlines that I’ve seen, it all is just like, it’s there. There’s so much of it. It’s there, it’s there. But then there isn’t any correlation data to what that means. And so that’s what you’re saying, is that now we’re saying we’re seeing all this stuff, but we don’t know if it’s. So is there data being gathered?

0:07:06 Wendlyn Jones: Are we trying to figure out if it’s harmful? Sure. So, I mean, there is work that is definitively ongoing around micro and nanoplastics.

0:07:17 Wendlyn Jones: There was some recent work done, for example, by the University of Nebraska at Lincoln where they purposely went and took different sizes of plastic.

0:07:30 Wendlyn Jones: Micro versus nano, made up of different specific elements, if you would, or compounds in that plastic and looked at, how did it react? Now, this work was done a little bit more in cell cultures as opposed to something, quote, being done in a human or in a model animal testing. But they did a lot of cell culture stuff, and what they found was this stuff isn’t getting through.

0:07:59 Wendlyn Jones: And we can talk a little bit more. But some of that gets into, you know, areas that would be of interest to. For folks on listening to this podcast on the. What is that uptake in fruits and veggies?

0:08:15 Wendlyn Jones: So that’s where there is more science that is still needed. But I don’t want to get you off track here, Ronnie, because this is obviously an area that I get pretty excited about.

0:08:27 Vonnie Estes: Yeah. So how does it even get into the soils to be possibly into the food? So how does. Is it. Does it come through the water or is it coming through the soil? Or how does it even, how’s it even there?

0:08:40 Wendlyn Jones: Yeah. So short answer is everything you just said there, right? It can be found. Plastic pollution can be found throughout the environment, from land to the streams, inland waterways, you know, from coasts and the oceans. And plastics generally don’t biodegrade.

0:09:02 Wendlyn Jones: Instead they break down into smaller particles, which is what we’re talking about, the microplastics and the nanoplastics. And you know, these are typically primary. It’s primarily that environmental component where those plastics can be present that then could, dare I say, have it, quote, show up in food. But there’s not really any sufficient evidence that shows that micro and nanoplastics from the plastic food packaging in any way migrate into foods and beverages.

0:09:31 Wendlyn Jones: Okay. So you almost have to start thinking about it almost from, from two different types, components. One is what’s going into the crops.

0:09:40 Wendlyn Jones: Versus what’s in that package that I’m quote, buying at the store. So it is something where you do have exposure, right? But I would argue you also have exposure just breathing.

0:09:52 Wendlyn Jones: Okay. Yeah, right. It’s just, just sitting in, in your house. In your house with that.

0:10:00 Vonnie Estes: Is there any data that shows that it’s actually being taken up by the roots? So that say you were growing a tomato, Is there any data that shows that anything? I can’t imagine how that would be, but it could go through the roots and into the tomato and you could get it through, produce that way. Any data.

0:10:17 Wendlyn Jones: So, so, so the short answer there is there, there’s not evidence that shows that. Okay. In fact, work’s been done by the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory as well as Washington State University that show that while, you know, microplastics could accumulate perhaps on the root tip.

0:10:36 Wendlyn Jones: But not the tap roots. It’s not absorbed by the plant. Okay. It’s just not absorbed by the plant. So then it’s almost interesting to say from a science side, wait a second. If they start to accumulate, there is this, perhaps even a decontamination component for plastics that might be more prevalent in some specific soil.

0:10:59 Wendlyn Jones: Now that having been said, as we think about plastics and the use of plastics in the farm to fork type scenario, plastics get used. Plastic mulch, for example, gets used. There’s lots of reasons and positive reasons why that plastic tarp, if you would, is put down and that, that is.

0:11:27 Vonnie Estes: To protect the crop, Right?

0:11:28 Wendlyn Jones: It’s to help with growth. It’s got all those things. So it’s going to have an impact on, on perhaps the soil Right. In that immediate area. But, but it’s not being, it’s not being pulled up.

0:11:42 Wendlyn Jones: So it’s not being. You’re not going to get it from your tomatoes, so to speak. Okay, right.

0:11:46 Vonnie Estes: I mean, just thinking about theology, I can’t imagine how that could, could happen.

0:11:51 Wendlyn Jones: Yeah, right, right. You know, perhaps more work looking at, you know, how some very specific vascular plants might be able to work here. But it’s just, it’s not, that’s not where it’s coming from.

0:12:04 Wendlyn Jones: It’s probably the key takeaway on that.

0:12:08 Vonnie Estes: You had said, and I hadn’t thought about this, but you had said, is there something coming from the packaging? And as you know, I’m doing a lot of work on packaging these days. And so is there any evidence, science based evidence that the clamshell you put your strawberries in, you’re getting some plastic from microplastic from that.

0:12:28 Wendlyn Jones: So that has been studied and I’m going to do shout outs in particular to research that’s been funded by both FDA and USDA that clearly show it’s not coming from food packaging, full stop.

0:12:43 Vonnie Estes: Right. That’s not where it’s coming from. Okay.

0:12:48 Wendlyn Jones: It’s something that is pervasive.

0:12:50 Wendlyn Jones: We just know that some of it is perhaps our lifestyle. But let’s not go through our current lifestyle under the bus because let’s recognize some of this is candidly whether it is, say, cosmetics, it’s to protect and protect what’s the package of what you’re buying.

0:13:08 Wendlyn Jones: There are always these benefits that are always incurred with the application of some of these different types of plastics. So. Yeah, so there we have no evidence on that one.

0:13:21 Vonnie Estes: Well, let’s go, let’s jump to another exciting group of compounds, pfas, the forever chemicals. So can you give us the short version of what they are and how they might enter the produce system and why policymakers are so focused on them right now?

0:13:39 Wendlyn Jones: So, so, so PFAS or per, and polyfluoroalkyl substances. Okay. And it’s substances. So it’s. We’re not even talking one chemical compound, but we’re talking a whole magnitude of chemical compounds. They are synthetic. They’ve been used in various industries, largely for their water and grease resistant properties. Okay. That’s how they’ve been been used in the past and they play a really important role.

0:14:10 Wendlyn Jones: I have. In the past anyhow.

0:14:12 Wendlyn Jones: And, you know, ways that they could perhaps enter produce would be, you know, through some contaminated wastewater.

0:14:21 Wendlyn Jones: That is a potential mechanism for pfas. Biosolids could also, when they’re used as fertilizers, could also lead to some types of soil contamination. And then there is just what I’m going to call airborne pollution. Right. Where it can be coming out of some environmental emissions. I mean, now you’ve got these things and I just said that they’re all ubiquitous. So why does everybody seem to care about it? Some of it gets into the chemical makeup of PFAS is such that it just doesn’t degrade at all. Okay. So it becomes highly, highly persistent.

0:15:02 Wendlyn Jones: EPA has gone forward and designated certain PFAS as hazardous substances. But, you know, more relevant for this audience is perhaps the work that FDA did last year where it basically said, you know what? Manufacturers can no longer be selling pfas, grease proofing substances in the food packaging in the US and you know, you’ve got FDA making this declaration, which is great. Okay. But it actually is a case where industry before then was starting to do a voluntary market phase out. So this is where I think it’s important that folks realize this is with all of these contaminants, real or potential, this is where industry is responsible and is taking action almost preemptively before they’re being mandated to by government authorities. And I think that that’s, that that’s good because they too are consumers.

0:15:59 Vonnie Estes: Mm. So is it mostly phased out then in.

0:16:03 Wendlyn Jones: You know, I’m gonna say the use is dramatically reduced in the US around food packaging. Full stop. Okay. Is PFAS still used in some applications? I think it’s decreasing. Right. We would really need to dial in on the data perhaps around some nonstick cookware surfaces coming in from places other than the US Just as an example.

0:16:31 Wendlyn Jones: So. But there has been a strong decrease in the use of pfas.

0:16:37 Vonnie Estes: Excellent. That’s really helpful. Sure. So another area I wanted to talk to you about is heavy metals. So they haven’t left the chat. What do we need to know about heavy metals like lead and arsenic and fresh produce? What’s naturally occurring, occurring and versus what’s human caused?

0:16:58 Wendlyn Jones: So short answer is they heavy metals. Right. Can be both naturally occurring and human caused.

0:17:05 Wendlyn Jones: Naturally occurring is because these metals and these metalloids really exist in the earth’s crust.

0:17:14 Wendlyn Jones: So they’re already there. You can’t get away from them due to just simple geographic geological processes that exist.

0:17:23 Wendlyn Jones: And then there are the human causes where perhaps it’s some kind of pollution that’s going on Perhaps there’s some kind of other contamination where the heavy metals can get into the agricultural environment. Okay. You’ve got both those types of sources contributing to it. I really. And I’ll let you ask your next question, Vani. Because there’s so many different directions.

0:17:52 Vonnie Estes: No, I know. Well, so I think just kind of, you know, for this audience and kind of higher level, like what, what’s happening around regulation and just policy for this level of contamination. Who’s in the US Is, who even mandates it or regulates it? And you know, what, how as a consumer and a person eating and then also as a, as a grower or someone in the produce industry, how do we deal with this, given that it’s there, these heavy metals are there?

0:18:23 Wendlyn Jones: So, you know, I want to acknowledge our friends at the fda, right. And the Human Foods Program for the program that they’ve got going on around Closer to Zero, which is an initiative that the US has. And I think it needs to be especially recognized and valued because you notice, it’s not how do we get these heavy metals, which we already said are naturally occurring, how do we get them? How do we get it to zero? Right. It’s literally, how do we get closer to zero?

0:18:57 Wendlyn Jones: Because there is an appreciation that these things are naturally occurring. They can vary, depend upon, depending upon the specific field that that producer is growing in. And part of, you know, what we’ve seen at IFINs with the success so far with this mitigation and reduction on, on, on heavy metals and other toxic elements is the fact that the agency has historically been very willing to work with usda, right.

0:19:31 Wendlyn Jones: To work with epa, Right. To help ensure that these things, that the voice of the producer and the farmer are being heard by everyone, which I think is actually candidly the key to this, because no one wants to be exposed to all these chemicals. Make sense? No one wants that.

0:19:51 Wendlyn Jones: So it comes down to how do we mitigate it? How do we get it as close to zero as possible.

0:19:56 Vonnie Estes: Excellent. That’s helpful. So if you step into the issues of our members and think about, you know, what does all of these things we’ve talked about, if you’re a produce company and you’re hearing about the plastics and pfas and the heavy metals, what should you be doing? Is it a risk to the growers and what should they be doing to monitor and pay attention to what’s happening out there?

0:20:21 Wendlyn Jones: Right, right. So I would, I would start with saying the key component would be to focus on being transparent and communicating. Okay. So that means taking the time with that transparency to educate your consumers.

0:20:40 Wendlyn Jones: Whether I’m not necessarily even talking about the consumer at the end of the day, but even down your supply chain. Take time to highlight the efforts that you’re making, whether it’s around plastics or heavy metals. And gee, wait, if I peel this sweet potato extra, then I know I’m reducing any possible exposure to this toxic element. Take the time to educate and to explain and then perhaps most importantly, collaborate with other groups. Yeah, go ahead, Vonnie.

0:21:11 Vonnie Estes: Do they know, like, if I’m a grower of sweet potatoes, do I know what the risk is from my field? Or is that something they have to test for?

0:21:19 Wendlyn Jones: Yeah. So different. So some of this gets into. Different states have different laws in place.

0:21:25 Wendlyn Jones: California is more. Has more laws in place than others. I think we all know that. And so California’s got some specific laws. Right. Depending upon if it is going to, for example, baby food, there are, I’ll say, additional requirements there, which makes sense when you consider that baby food is more a single source. There’s not a. They don’t. Babies don’t have the same variety of food that they eat. So you’ve got different components there. And yes, there is some testing that is required, but I think that that’s where even just explaining to consumers, even whether it’s whether if your customer is that baby food company.

0:22:06 Wendlyn Jones: Or your customer is somebody else going ahead and not being afraid to share that. Okay. And then, you know, collaborate with others is going to be the other component.

0:22:18 Wendlyn Jones: Make sure. And candidly, if they’re listening to this podcast, they’re already engaged.

0:22:24 Wendlyn Jones: Make sure you collaborate with others.

0:22:28 Wendlyn Jones: Okay. Whether that is others in your same industry. Right. Whether it is going and talking at the local state university and their extension services, et cetera.

0:22:41 Wendlyn Jones: It’s going to be that collaboration piece that I think helps everybody candidly stay ahead of the curve.

0:22:47 Wendlyn Jones: And to help folks feel safe and confident about the food choices that they’re making in the grocery stores.

0:22:54 Vonnie Estes: That’s really helpful. Are there promising technologies or research efforts that maybe you’re doing or other organizations that are doing that could help detect, reduce or mitigate these different contaminants?

0:23:07 Wendlyn Jones: Yeah, sure. Absolutely. So there is lots of work going on within PFAS and plastics and heavy metals and toxic elements. At iFins, where I work, the Institute for the Advancement of Food and Nutrition Sciences, we’re just launching a project looking at rice and leafy greens, picking those two in particular to look at what do we know about different soil types and the uptake of arsenic and cadmium and lead.

0:23:42 Wendlyn Jones: This is on some levels very foundational. But the entire intent is that we can get out, get out some common science that will help inform decision making by all so that, gee, wait, if I have a choice between what I plant this year versus next year, wait, maybe, maybe this is something I want to consider that way. So we’ve got work going on there and I’m also well aware that there’s work going on funded by, candidly funded by USDA on this topic.

0:24:12 Wendlyn Jones: So.

0:24:13 Vonnie Estes: So final question.

0:24:14 Wendlyn Jones: Sure.

0:24:15 Vonnie Estes: We live in some very fascinating times right now. There’s real science which is getting under attack in some circles, real policy and real anxiety for some of these issues. What’s your personal take on what’s happening in food and nutrition right now? And are we at some sort of tipping point?

0:24:34 Wendlyn Jones: Sure, sure. So, yeah, you know that we live in interesting times, right? That’s a good way of putting it. But you know, there’s never been more of a national dialogue on the importance of food and nutrition.

0:24:49 Wendlyn Jones: I mean it is permeating everywhere. You don’t have to just be quote in the industry to be hearing about it these days. And that therefore is offering to all of us in the food and beverage ecosystem an opportunity to really step in and take some leadership.

0:25:07 Wendlyn Jones: That means going in and helping because people are now understanding that, wait a second, the chicken for example, didn’t just come in that, in that plastic packaging.

0:25:17 Wendlyn Jones: It came off of a farm. Let’s take the opportunity to really engage more deeply with everyone, to elevate candidly the role of science and technology because the threats that exist around, whether it be. And let’s just go with heavy metals.

0:25:34 Vonnie Estes: Because they are real. Right.

0:25:36 Wendlyn Jones: Let’s go ahead and embrace the opportunity that we’ve got technology solutions, we’ve got science based solutions that can actually move us forward. And that’s what actually keeps me very excited about these interesting times that we’re in, is at the end of the day, it’s going to be what happens in the lab. It’s going to be what the technologists come up with that really do help candidly make us healthier, help us move more towards wellness.

0:26:04 Wendlyn Jones: So I think that that’s a great opportunity for us.

0:26:07 Vonnie Estes: Well, I think that’s a good place to stop. And thank you so much for your time and your insight. And that’s. I’ve. I can’t believe we covered all those topics in 25 minutes. But that’s really helpful, and I think it’s helpful for the listeners to understand where we are and when these topics come up, people kind of know now how to think about it instead of just jumping into, oh my gosh, there’s.

0:26:29 Wendlyn Jones: So much in there everywhere.

0:26:30 Vonnie Estes: So thank you for enlightening everybody. I appreciate it.

0:26:33 Wendlyn Jones: Sure, Absolutely. Vonnie. Thanks for having me.

0:26:37 Intro Speaker: Thanks for tuning in to Fresh Takes on Tech, hosted by Vonnie Estes. If you enjoyed the conversation, please subscribe, rate and share it with your network. You can find more episodes and resources at freshproduce.com See you next time for another Fresh Take.