[jessa__she_her_] 00:00:03

All right, so today I wanted to talk about leadership called here with producer Santiago. I mean, I think

[jessa__she_her_] 00:00:12

it's all this talk about Mike Shriner and Merritt Styles that had me thinking about it, but to be honest, I think

[jessa__she_her_] 00:00:20

it's kind of just been egging at me for a while because I have been so guilty of falling into that leadership

[jessa__she_her_] 00:00:28

called kind of mentality, and have since Fallen out of love with it, and now I can't stand to see it, so I just

[jessa__she_her_] 00:00:37

wanted to explore that in terms of Canadian politics and how much deference we put into leaders, both our

[jessa__she_her_] 00:00:46

own and the focus that we put on the opposition enemy, Right and the focus that we put on opposition leaders

[jessa__she_her_] 00:00:57

as well, Did I call them enemies?

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:00:59

Uh, huh,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:01:01

Anyway? We're trying not to be that black and white about our thinking anymore. However, yeah, I think we're

[jessa__she_her_] 00:01:08

like just as guilty. I don't think it serves us well right, either in tactics or mentality, So you jumped

[jessa__she_her_] 00:01:18

like you didn't object Santiago, So obviously you may be wanted to explore this as well. You've never been

[jessa__she_her_] 00:01:26

in the leadership cult, Or you know, I say that, as I have Chegavera post Behind me, so I'll cop to that

[jessa__she_her_] 00:01:32

right now.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:01:34

No, I mean, I think it's kind of natural to have at some point fallen into that in one way or the other,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:01:44

Who

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:01:44

and

[jessa__she_her_] 00:01:44

was it?

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:01:47

I don't know. I mean, I mean, you can definitely say Burney was, but that that doesn't feel like you

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:01:53

know the worst thing, but I think it's more of just wanting

[jessa__she_her_] 00:01:57

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:01:57

somebody to save us. You know, wanting

[jessa__she_her_] 00:01:59

Yeah,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:01:59

to believe that somebody's just gonna come along and have all the answers, and just like single handedly

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:02:07

well, the power to fix everything. I think that's like just a deep desire for a lot of people. But

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:02:16

yeah, now Burney is now A good example.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:02:21

But he is in a way like it still creates the same kind of problems Like you don't get off the hook for being

[jessa__she_her_] 00:02:27

a Burne brother or whatever they like To the

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:02:30

But

[jessa__she_her_] 00:02:30

monitor

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:02:30

the whole Burney

[jessa__she_her_] 00:02:31

they

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:02:31

thing

[jessa__she_her_] 00:02:31

attached

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:02:31

was the

[jessa__she_her_] 00:02:31

it.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:02:32

It was that it was the not me us of it that I loved. You know

[jessa__she_her_] 00:02:36

Okay,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:02:36

like I think like, that's what I'm saying. I don't think I fell into the leadership cult of it all,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:02:40

because it was more of the movement of it all that I fell in

[jessa__she_her_] 00:02:43

Yes,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:02:43

love with too, and just Burney was the face of that movement I think I had, but now I definitely

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:02:49

think I have. I just can't think of off the top of my head to be, which is kind of. I mean, I think

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:02:55

that's a good thing. maybe, but

[jessa__she_her_] 00:02:59

I mean, there's a case to be made to that, Ike. you're You're not the only one. I'm not the only one. It

[jessa__she_her_] 00:03:04

seems like Canadian politics, Sin General just seems really focused on the leader, and if you've ever been a

[jessa__she_her_] 00:03:11

part of any campaign, they tell you essentially, and it's even more so with a federal campaign that it's the national

[jessa__she_her_] 00:03:18

campaign, that leadership campaign that really is going to make the difference in terms of vote count and poles

[jessa__she_her_] 00:03:27

right, constantly pulling People on their preference for leader, even without asking them any kind of values based

[jessa__she_her_] 00:03:33

questions. And that is somehow relevant, you know, and there's no doubt it's influenced elections. Like. Do

[jessa__she_her_] 00:03:42

you think Truthoug would have been elected and been successful this many times if he wasn't so personable.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:03:51

Um,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:03:52

No, I mean, I've knocked on enough doors to know what people care about with elections And it's

[jessa__she_her_] 00:04:00

They love his hair. They will say that at the door, won't they?

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:04:04

And then it's it's. It's the leadership right They don't, Because I've tried to engage people in conversations

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:04:10

at the R. on on policy on like more of like nuance details, and it really just comes down to the

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:04:18

leader. I mean, I remember when I was in grade twelve, My my politics teacher used to say that politicians

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:04:25

are elected based off the beer test, which is people vote for the person they would most want to have

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:04:30

a beer with an

[jessa__she_her_] 00:04:34

Yeah, and that's probably

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:04:35

[jessa__she_her_] 00:04:35

how we market

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:04:37

[jessa__she_her_] 00:04:37

ourselves. You know. that's how the campaign shape up to right like it's all poured everything into the leader

[jessa__she_her_] 00:04:43

to make them. it was the kinder gentler, Andrea. Right, and that like that obviously didn't work. But yeah, it

[jessa__she_her_] 00:04:51

becomes like the go to strategy too, and I think that's what really turned me off right with sitting in

[jessa__she_her_] 00:04:56

so many council meetings. That's on N d P. council meetings where You're told first and foremost that all

[jessa__she_her_] 00:05:06

the positive stuff that comes out is going to be about the leader and only the leader, not the issues, not

[jessa__she_her_] 00:05:11

the other people doing the work, and all of the negative messaging is going to be primarily about a person

[jessa__she_her_] 00:05:21

and not ideas. And I think like that's really what gets me upset when we talk about these leadership calls

[jessa__she_her_] 00:05:29

and why they're a bad thing is just We're not talking about the issues right

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:05:35

[jessa__she_her_] 00:05:36

and

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:05:36

Hm,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:05:36

I'm so guilty of it. Still, you know, in Tiktok, I've got a forward tracker and I've named that and I blame him

[jessa__she_her_] 00:05:41

and I use his name over and over again because I know that it illicit certain emotions, I guess, but in reality

[jessa__she_her_] 00:05:48

I'm wasting time by not driving home the point that it's whether it was forward or let J at the helm or any.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:05:55

If them, it's all going to be the same. No liberal plan, The same capitalist patterns of Now cutting government

[jessa__she_her_] 00:06:05

spending and leaving us hanging out to dry. and like attacking the person is really just such a distraction.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:06:13

Yeah, and it's it's also like it's so tempting to follow into just that messaging because it's also

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:06:22

often the most efficient, you know, when it comes to limited resource. If you can knock down a leader

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:06:31

that does have an effect for most people

[jessa__she_her_] 00:06:36

Yeah, and

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:06:36

[jessa__she_her_] 00:06:36

that's

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:06:36

shouldn't

[jessa__she_her_] 00:06:36

like easy.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:06:38

Yeah, and there's also like a certain level of con Roll that you surrender when you use that strategy.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:06:47

Because the spin right like a lot of the ways that you can criticize someone. It all comes down to

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:06:55

how that ends up getting spine in the narrative right like I remember, I was taught. I ran into an

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:07:02

activist I knew the other day who, like he does activism in the Philippines, and he was telling

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:07:07

me about how the person he was organizing against There was like some scandal where they were like doing.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:07:17

They were caught doing coke or something, And and then the media spend it to be that. Oh, they have to

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:07:26

do coke because they're such a hard worker that it's what they do to be able to keep

[jessa__she_her_] 00:07:31

That

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:07:31

[jessa__she_her_] 00:07:32

might

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:07:32

with

[jessa__she_her_] 00:07:32

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:07:32

the campaign,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:07:32

true.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:07:33

and for the record like I don't use this example, because I have anything like. I don't have any

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:07:37

stigmas against Trug. So we're using about like the narratives right,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:07:42

Yeah,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:07:42

Like that same Narrative would knock down someone else and here it gets fun into a positive right.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:07:51

So when you?

[jessa__she_her_] 00:07:51

Someone had a really creative press team

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:07:54

Yeah,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:07:55

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:07:55

and apparently it

[jessa__she_her_] 00:07:56

that's

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:07:56

worked

[jessa__she_her_] 00:07:56

impressive.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:07:57

so I don't know. Like this was a passing conversation. I didn't get the most details about it, but apparently

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:08:03

it worked and that's kind of what it comes down to right Is that like when you attack a leader, it's

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:08:10

also very easy to defend the leader. You know what I mean. Like the like, How many things? I think

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:08:15

Trump was the ultimate example of that, which is that the amount of ship that you could get away with

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:08:23

you know it all comes Down to the spin and I think when it comes to criticizing, like when somebody

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:08:30

brought into that cult, and I think cult is kind of a useful term right because it's like surrendering

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:08:38

a bit of like the rational thinking. And so

[jessa__she_her_] 00:08:41

Yeah, it

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:08:41

when

[jessa__she_her_] 00:08:41

becomes

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:08:41

you're

[jessa__she_her_] 00:08:41

entirely emotional.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:08:43

when you're in that cult, you know it is completely unacceptable for you to be wrong about it. You

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:08:51

know. so so

[jessa__she_her_] 00:08:53

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:08:53

any

[jessa__she_her_] 00:08:54

know

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:08:54

critics

[jessa__she_her_] 00:08:54

that

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:08:54

Sums, just get dismissed like they're not going to land, they're not going to land. You attack the

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:09:00

leader, you attack the person. It's not going to land. And so you see that constantly, the people

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:09:06

who support people support those people and will keep supporting those people. And by attacking those

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:09:10

leaders there's nothing you can get. nothing you can say that will get through them. Maybe you get

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:09:15

through to a couple, maybe, but it's not going to be effective on a larger scale, So it's also like

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:09:20

I feel like we're wasting a lot of our time there. I don't know.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:09:23

Well, I think that's on purpose. right. It's like that moving target, that false target And it's it's in within

[jessa__she_her_] 00:09:30

our enemies and within ourselves. because like Jagmeatsaing, he's a perfect example. Like people who are frustrated

[jessa__she_her_] 00:09:39

with the party right now blame him. but he doesn't actually do anything from what we know like he hardly

[jessa__she_her_] 00:09:46

does anything. Um, and leading right. There's no grand

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:09:51

[jessa__she_her_] 00:09:51

vision.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:09:51

hm,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:09:51

There's no planning that's coming Rough. Him, particularly, he's being propped up and put on display and so

[jessa__she_her_] 00:09:58

being frustrated with him and thinking that a leadership contest is going to fix it, Just like you know,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:10:05

the Ontario, N D P. getting a new leader here Like those, aren't even the people actually running the show.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:10:10

And that's the same on all levels of government. Like Trump isn't actually coming up with most of those ideas,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:10:14

those horrible initiatives and neither is Trude for the most part, Like there's going to be some exceptions and

[jessa__she_her_] 00:10:22

cabinets are set up different Ways. But you know it's It's just to like people aren't educated to as well

[jessa__she_her_] 00:10:31

as how these power structures work right. So it's so easy to be like. Oh, it's him. It's forward it. It's

[jessa__she_her_] 00:10:36

whoever you want to blame at the time and you can spend all your energy like we've seen entire campaigns, money

[jessa__she_her_] 00:10:43

spent energy spent to get the Minister of Education in Ontario, fired by whom By forward to be replaced by another

[jessa__she_her_] 00:10:51

person like that Is

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:10:53

Yeah,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:10:53

Such wasted time. When it's the ideas that those will continue. The cuts would continue with a different

[jessa__she_her_] 00:10:59

face because we like we learn nothing, because cabinet shuffles are just one way out of it right. So that's

[jessa__she_her_] 00:11:06

like Duck and dodge. I asked you before we started recording. You know how we thought to Conservatives.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:11:14

Do, people on the right put as much hope and deference into their leaders. You said.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:11:25

Yeah, I mean, I don't. I don't think they do. I don't think they do. I also think that like one of

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:11:31

the things that I came up for me was there was like this idea. I feel like there's almost this like

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:11:35

assumption that ass hole politicians, asshole leaders, asshole cos, whatever are a finite resource.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:11:45

That

[jessa__she_her_] 00:11:46

Ah,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:11:46

that that by getting rid of them

[jessa__she_her_] 00:11:48

well,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:11:48

there.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:11:49

not for the Ontario N D. P. Right now there was only one to choose from.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:11:53

But you know what I mean, Like this idea that you get rid of them and the next one won't be the literal

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:11:58

same thing. And that's the case with everything in capitalism. right, you're gonna you get rid of

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:12:04

one of those and it's a hydra, you know, chop off one head to grow back. That's how it is.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:12:10

What's

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:12:10

right.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:12:10

worse. What's worse, Though, thinking getting rid of like a trump, yea we be Trump, or and thinking we've won

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:12:20

Yeah,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:12:20

or that false hope you put in like a boma

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:12:25

No, exactly,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:12:26

That people spent energy propping up rather than defeating, And obviously there's differences between the

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:12:35

Hm,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:12:35

two, but I mean a Boma bomb the ship out of racialized people. He built those migrant detention centers.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:12:41

Like all the things that we just despise and try to jump on Trump. like? Um, Like policy wise, they didn't

[jessa__she_her_] 00:12:49

differ all that much right, save

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:12:52

[jessa__she_her_] 00:12:52

for

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:12:52

hm,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:12:52

like some human rights issues like very few, though, And I'm wondering, like what does us more harm wasting

[jessa__she_her_] 00:13:01

our energy attacking, like this kind of man behind the curtain that's not there, or that false hope that

[jessa__she_her_] 00:13:10

false hope that you kind of talked about in the very beginning where we think someone will save us Because

[jessa__she_her_] 00:13:15

that that probably means you're not doing the work that you would do if you thought it was on you and your

[jessa__she_her_] 00:13:22

comrades, Right, like

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:13:24

[jessa__she_her_] 00:13:25

race

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:13:25

hm,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:13:25

is all the work That goes in behind these leaders, good and bad, Like Jem, didn't get where he was. Fourth place.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:13:34

I guess without the team that's behind him and trumped it and get there without all these folks propping

[jessa__she_her_] 00:13:41

him up in the media, Um amplifying it right. But we don't really look there. We just have this really narrow

[jessa__she_her_] 00:13:49

focus and uh, yeah, I can't decide which one is more detrimental to You know, actually getting the work done.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:14:01

I mean, I feel like that. I mean, I've seen that false hope so many times stop people from getting the

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:14:09

work done

[jessa__she_her_] 00:14:10

Yeah,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:14:10

that like I'm and I think that comes back to like a central theme of this podcast which is like the

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:14:19

The problem with just electoralism right. Just like

[jessa__she_her_] 00:14:23

Yeah,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:14:24

only doing the electoralism thing and putting all your hope in the electoralism thing and then losing

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:14:31

All your hope and energy because all you did was the electoralism thing and absolutely nothing changed.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:14:37

Right

[jessa__she_her_] 00:14:39

Yeah,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:14:39

and like that's done so much harm and earlier, when you asked me about, like our conservatives, more

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:14:45

or less on the the cultural leadership, I think an important thing to like kind of ask is when we say

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:14:51

conservative, Are we talking about conservative voters or the actual capitalists, like the people

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:14:58

with resources, money power, who Are really the conservative party? Right, because there is a distinction

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:15:08

there right. I think that conservatives are like more like the Elector is more. I'd say it's just about

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:15:16

as loyal as liberals to the whole cult of leadership, but I'd say that behind the scenes conservatives

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:15:23

are cut throat. They're quick to move on the second someone loses their usefulness, You know,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:15:32

Except trump ites like. I think I feel like there should be an astre every time we say this, because

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:15:36

But that's

[jessa__she_her_] 00:15:37

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:15:37

the electorate,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:15:37

they take it to another level, like the swag and the passion and this man has is

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:15:42

But

[jessa__she_her_] 00:15:42

lost.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:15:43

those are the voters. Though

[jessa__she_her_] 00:15:43

He's not

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:15:44

those are the voters, not not not the people behind the scenes. I don't think that there is

[jessa__she_her_] 00:15:49

Right.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:15:50

committed to it, and I feel like, I mean they know what they have to gain by playing that up to the

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:15:55

people who are still very much drinking the cool aid. But

[jessa__she_her_] 00:16:01

I think Trump was an exception in so many ways, though, like you say, voters, I'm I'm thinking half those folks

[jessa__she_her_] 00:16:08

didn't. I know, the numbers are not going to support me here, but I feel like they're not even voters. That's

[jessa__she_her_] 00:16:12

just really reactionary. It's like almost like a fuck you to the established political class because he was

[jessa__she_her_] 00:16:19

just so out there in terms of like being a politician right, it was like

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:16:24

[jessa__she_her_] 00:16:24

the anti

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:16:24

hm,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:16:25

politician, even though in the andes, doing capitals bidding the same way just with a different stick. But

[jessa__she_her_] 00:16:31

It was it was just It did come coalesce around him and then kept its momentum even when he was removed from

[jessa__she_her_] 00:16:41

power. Even more so right,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:16:43

[jessa__she_her_] 00:16:43

like the

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:16:44

hm,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:16:44

almost rose up in the absence of his power, so I feel like Yeah, there's just like another lens to look at

[jessa__she_her_] 00:16:51

that situation. But if you look at

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:16:53

Hm,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:16:53

Canada, we always mark like our eras by Prime minister, Right, like not by an actual political analysis of

[jessa__she_her_] 00:17:02

the change.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:17:02

No,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:17:03

You know, Like Maroni, brought in that A liberal approach that Regan had. but we don't. We don't put those words

[jessa__she_her_] 00:17:09

to it and teach people that it's like my dad hated Maroni. so I do, and you know, Yeah,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:17:18

It's not measured by how people are actually doing like quality of life,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:17:23

Like your average person. Yeah, I know now, and that's we don't even mark our eras that way. Politically,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:17:29

You know when we shifted away when our foreign policy shifted to a certain way, or you know, our social safety

[jessa__she_her_] 00:17:35

net became less of a you know priority. We don't mark that or just market by what leader was empowered.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:17:41

Quite often. people can't name even what party they were. I think that's

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:17:46

And it's also so like complicated also because like, for example, right now, Trudohas been Prime Minister

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:17:52

for high for how long? but almost every province is conservative right and so like, Is it the era of

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:17:59

Tito? Is it the era afford? Which one is it?

[jessa__she_her_] 00:18:02

It's the area. Well, it's right now. It's like the era of fucktrudo. I think that's what's galvanizing a lot

[jessa__she_her_] 00:18:08

of people. Like I come from a neighborhood where every other truck has that on their bumper stick, like,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:18:14

and that again is like this huge focus. The convoy doesn't even really know what they're protesting or asking

[jessa__she_her_] 00:18:21

for. I mean, there's certain ones that have real subversive motives, but generally I think most of them are

[jessa__she_her_] 00:18:27

clues. Wouldn't be able to articulate it except that Tyre. he's a tire, Like trudois, just some tyrant, and then

[jessa__she_her_] 00:18:34

you go into liberal spaces and you try to say anything negative about Trude and you've got to be a conservative

[jessa__she_her_] 00:18:39

and you know full disclaimer were neither, But

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:18:43

Hm.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:18:43

yeah, it just elicits such a devisiveness to right. As soon as you start talking about the leader, you're

[jessa__she_her_] 00:18:50

almost getting a different person in their response. Right as if you talked about an issue right when after

[jessa__she_her_] 00:18:55

an issue and talked about the importance of health care, you could actually have discourse. But once you

[jessa__she_her_] 00:19:00

bring the leader into And I feel like that, that's that constructive discourse just disappears. it becomes

[jessa__she_her_] 00:19:09

irrational and yeah, the amount of media space that's dedicated to it as well, I think is just such a drawback

[jessa__she_her_] 00:19:17

from like letting folks know what's what's actually in the policies rather than where they are and who they're

[jessa__she_her_] 00:19:24

shaking hands with, or who's yelling at them outside of their dinner Like

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:19:30

It comes back also like, Just because you mentioned media, it comes back to that fundamental issue

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:19:35

in journalism about. Like because these are not like always. it's It's not like backroom meetings where

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:19:44

they're like planning to like. Focus only on leaders because they want to like not give people information.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:19:53

but it's because it's easy. right. Like communicating to people politics through the lens of leaders

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:19:59

is the Seest way to do it right. It's much more difficult to try and tell people about all of the nuances

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:20:07

and policy and all three hundred and thirty six. Is it? I don't even know any more. That's good. I'm

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:20:13

glad I don't know three hundred and thirty whatever, Right Like people don't people. Can't you don't

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:20:21

have the time for that, So it's easier to just do the whole leadership thing and sell it all through

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:20:27

that image, but it's also Not doing anyone justice and I don't know. Like Ow, Do you fix that? How

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:20:36

do you? How do you actually change the way that we communicate politics to people?

[jessa__she_her_] 00:20:44

That is? that

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:20:45

Ah,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:20:45

is like the question, the golden question. T. because whatever it is, we're not doing it and a lot of it

[jessa__she_her_] 00:20:54

sounded like education right. It's easier also because people maybe wouldn't understand, So it's digestible.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:21:02

It's cellable. It's drama to write. Policy versus policy just doesn't elicit the same narrative as to individuals

[jessa__she_her_] 00:21:11

fighting each other. You know, those digs that we like to publish at each other, and it just evolves

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:21:18

Hm,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:21:18

into this um. battle of the personalities, and another real negative impact that that has is traces the

[jessa__she_her_] 00:21:28

fact that they're essentially all the same right. It

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:21:32

[jessa__she_her_] 00:21:32

was like Ford versus Trude, and like now, Trudois, just saying, Oh, well, you know what, your private health care

[jessa__she_her_] 00:21:38

is really innovative. So like all their bickering back and forth and all this talk about Tito saving us, It's they're

[jessa__she_her_] 00:21:44

all the same. They're all doing capitals bidding. Um, there's not

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:21:50

Yeah,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:21:50

much that separates them

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:21:51

You know it's an interesting policy to think about right now is because I was just thinking about

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:21:57

how like whenever they. actually, whenever you want to sell policy, you got to give a catchy name. You know,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:22:01

you got to make it a whole thing. You know. You got you got your bucket bears, you know, and stuff

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:22:08

like that, But I was just thinking about the green New Deal and how How so many right wing Republicans

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:22:16

and such they hate it, But they have no idea what it is. They just know the name Green New Deal and

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:22:24

then they're against

[jessa__she_her_] 00:22:26

Like critical

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:22:26

it.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:22:26

race theory.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:22:27

[jessa__she_her_] 00:22:27

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:22:27

yeah, critical race.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:22:28

what

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:22:28

there

[jessa__she_her_] 00:22:28

is it?

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:22:29

[jessa__she_her_] 00:22:29

I don't

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:22:29

another

[jessa__she_her_] 00:22:29

know, but I don't like it.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:22:31

another great example. There's all kinds of like whenever, like, actual policy gets brought up and

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:22:36

you have to sell it with like some name you know like. but like the actual content of it is not

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:22:41

what people are paying attention to. And then it's so funny how much how angry people can get about

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:22:47

something that they have no idea what it is. You know.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:22:53

That is so true and I know this is kind of digressing a little bit as well. But if you ever actually read

[jessa__she_her_] 00:23:00

for nations, See, I even call them That should be. the progressive conservative government Acts like they're

[jessa__she_her_] 00:23:07

so awful. They're so arrillian. They literally say the opposite of what they're doing. Um, because every time

[jessa__she_her_] 00:23:15

someone tells me the name of the act, I feel like my response is not really called. That is it? And and sure

[jessa__she_her_] 00:23:21

enough, if you look at it, it is so. Yeah, messaging is just manipulation in politics and leadership Cults

[jessa__she_her_] 00:23:31

are not the only example of that. by far, Um, I think it serves us well to kind of talk about the two leadership,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:23:40

kind of situations in Ontario That got us talking about leadership, this and leadership. that the Mike Shriner

[jessa__she_her_] 00:23:48

drama. I'm Having fun watching people's reactions to this because they're getting quite worked up and emotional

[jessa__she_her_] 00:23:56

about it. Have you waited into this? So this is the Ontario Green Leader Is being courted again by this time

[jessa__she_her_] 00:24:05

like real high ranking liberals, whatever that means. And you know they wrote an open letter pleading with him,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:24:12

and although he had said he wouldn't even consider it, he's now asked people for some time to carefully consider

[jessa__she_her_] 00:24:20

it. So

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:24:22

I mean, I got to be honest when I say that I haven't been focusing the most on it. It's been like one

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:24:29

of those times he got asked to run for the leadership of the Liberals. It is

[jessa__she_her_] 00:24:35

Yeah,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:24:35

right,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:24:36

so like you know, you've got your, so I'm goin t feel you in Santiago with the audience. So the you've got liberals.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:24:41

They're getting all worked up because they've got their favorite one of seven, M. P. Ps, or whoever you know,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:24:47

they've got a liberal, may be federal hero that they had planned for this job because they see themselves

[jessa__she_her_] 00:24:51

as researching, and apparently it all rests on who your leader is not your content. so I guess some of them

[jessa__she_her_] 00:25:00

are very excited at the idea of just replacing it with someone with some star power At the

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:25:05

[jessa__she_her_] 00:25:05

moment. And then you've got your greens, who you know are enjoying having someone like Shriner who pulls very

[jessa__she_her_] 00:25:13

well in Ontario, is a bit of a super star amongst Left is because he has, you know, what would be considered ultra

[jessa__she_her_] 00:25:20

progressive ideas in Ontario politics, even left of the Ontario and D P. most of the time To be honest, And

[jessa__she_her_] 00:25:27

so the greens there are mixed. Some of them are like. Well, maybe we could all be liberals and actually win.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:25:32

And then you know the grass fruit. Most of the grass fruits are Just like now. Like we finally have momentum.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:25:37

We finally have a really genuine leader. That's not Elizabeth May, And you know, how could you leave us right?

[jessa__she_her_] 00:25:45

How could you do that to us? How could you even think about it? And again it's just like, Although I do

[jessa__she_her_] 00:25:52

find it amusing at some point because I don't know. I just have fun with the greens. I'm not sure why I'm sorry

[jessa__she_her_] 00:26:00

to all my green friends there, but it's just again like it doesn't Matt. It should not matter who the leader

[jessa__she_her_] 00:26:06

of your party is really right. It's like if it's led by really

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:26:09

Hm,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:26:09

powerful ideas that are communicated, will you should win. You should

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:26:15

[jessa__she_her_] 00:26:15

transform

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:26:16

Hm,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:26:16

people's minds, like all of this work, and hope that you know, resting on where Mike Shriner lands. and

[jessa__she_her_] 00:26:24

like somehow the fate of ontarians rest in that decision is really troubling to me because they're going

[jessa__she_her_] 00:26:31

to make those decisions a hundred percent based on their Political professional situation, right. Same with merit

[jessa__she_her_] 00:26:41

styles and all of their decisions like they're thinking about themselves and they're propping themselves up

[jessa__she_her_] 00:26:47

and creating their own portfolio. I mean, I think that's obvious with what Andrea Howat, Now who's working

[jessa__she_her_] 00:26:53

very closely with Dug Ford as mayor of Hamilton, You know, they go where they'll win. They'll go where they'll

[jessa__she_her_] 00:26:59

be propped up. They'll go where they'll have a big spot light. and Yeah, membership be damned. so um, yeah,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:27:11

I mentioned merit a few times that folks who aren't paying attention to Ontario politics. I don't blame you,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:27:16

but the Ontario, N. D P had a single person run for leadership, So

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:27:21

And they

[jessa__she_her_] 00:27:22

you

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:27:22

made

[jessa__she_her_] 00:27:22

know

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:27:22

sure of that,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:27:24

they did at the party was absolutely so focused and intent on having this one person become the next leader.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:27:34

an essential Carbon copy of the last one. I'll bite a better speaker.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:27:41

They went even so far as to alienate really good M. P. P's attack members, you know, basically structure

[jessa__she_her_] 00:27:49

the last two years and counting on this transition of power And yeah, it's like whatever you got to do to get the

[jessa__she_her_] 00:28:00

leader of your choice in place, and it has such detrimental effect on the left. We talked about briefly,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:28:12

Jagmeetsing, being the leader of the Federal N. D. P. and how he got there. There's still bad blood amongst

[jessa__she_her_] 00:28:19

Ndpers on. depending on whose camp you were in during that first leadership race for Jagmete, there was you

[jessa__she_her_] 00:28:28

know, team Nick, Team Charlie, and Teamjgmt And yeah, still, When you, when you're in these circles, there

[jessa__she_her_] 00:28:35

is animosity and there's folks who don't work together any more because they were in different campaigns there.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:28:42

And Yeah,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:28:44

Hm,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:28:44

like for what? For what? Look where has it gotten us in the last four or five years?

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:28:52

No, and and like, just to bring up another example, just because I was a part of this when N. Paul

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:29:00

was elected leader of the Greens, right in the lead up to that. I remember there was so many members

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:29:05

signing up. There was like a really good energy. He was this whole field of candidates. An Paul wins

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:29:11

and suddenly pouf all of that energy. all of that momentum gone and that happened so so much With this,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:29:17

where's like? In the lead up to these leadership elections, a lot of great Stuff is happening And then

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:29:25

you just once somebody is elected. Everyone's like Okay. Work is done by by. you know,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:29:30

Yeah,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:29:32

And that's the case so much, and you know, like with this, I was like, wonder like, Why is that? Why

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:29:39

is it in Canadian politics that it's always like just one leader? I mean, that's the thing in a lot

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:29:44

of politics. not just Canadian, but

[jessa__she_her_] 00:29:47

Are you tlkigabotlike The Co leadership.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:29:49

but even like. what if you?

[jessa__she_her_] 00:29:50

Like what?

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:29:50

just what if you Didn't have a leader have a party and

[jessa__she_her_] 00:29:55

Chaos

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:29:55

you just

[jessa__she_her_] 00:29:55

would

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:29:55

[jessa__she_her_] 00:29:55

ensue San Diego?

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:29:57

now, But what if you like Cychuwhat, if you had like a few people

[jessa__she_her_] 00:30:01

Yeah,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:30:01

who all were like cycling through in terms of like media duties, and like talking and stuff representing

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:30:10

the party. but like you didn't and maybe you had, like you could still have like a president. But

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:30:16

just maybe I don't know. not even a fan of that idea, but just saying like what if you didn't How

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:30:22

would Canadians react to that? Do you think? do you think that people would like that? Do you think

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:30:28

they'd fuck with that like

[jessa__she_her_] 00:30:31

Well, sometimes I wonder if people eat only tune into politics to see the drama around the leadership. But

[jessa__she_her_] 00:30:40

that idea of like rotation is not um foreign to democracy at all. You know, the Greeks had the Lot system

[jessa__she_her_] 00:30:50

and your name was in a hat, you know, And

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:30:57

Hm,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:30:58

if you got drawn to be the Minister of Agricole, Sure, that's what you were doing for the next year, And you know

[jessa__she_her_] 00:31:07

it had many purposes. It exposed you to all of the ins and out of government, which is society right. How

[jessa__she_her_] 00:31:15

everything works, the ideas to move around and get. But then you also experience like being the ruled and

[jessa__she_her_] 00:31:22

being a ruler, so that you know what makes both good right rather than it always being the same person.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:31:30

It Reduce. Like elections, we talk about the problems like how do you run an election without having that

[jessa__she_her_] 00:31:36

leader that focal point for people to kind of follow it all. And but elections are really problematic. They're

[jessa__she_her_] 00:31:43

not as democratic as we

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:31:44

No,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:31:44

make them out to be. That doesn't? That isn't the only way to structure who will be making the decisions for

[jessa__she_her_] 00:31:52

the next bet. You know, like if we do look back to the origins of democracy, there are so many other ways

[jessa__she_her_] 00:31:59

that you can function Without that. But you know the system that we've built up around us makes that really

[jessa__she_her_] 00:32:06

hard. You know the money that's involved or the way that media is structured to, you know,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:32:12

M, But let's say

[jessa__she_her_] 00:32:14

Funnel

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:32:14

[jessa__she_her_] 00:32:14

out sernine stuff

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:32:16

let's say, and I'm just going to pick the Liberals as my example here. just because you know they win

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:32:21

elections. Um, sorry

[jessa__she_her_] 00:32:24

They do.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:32:26

if the Liberals said tomorrow, no more leaders. We have no leaders and we're just going to cycle various

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:32:33

M. P. s. Like the Cabinet members, you know, cycle

[jessa__she_her_] 00:32:36

Trude

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:32:36

the

[jessa__she_her_] 00:32:36

would

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:32:36

Cabinet

[jessa__she_her_] 00:32:36

be so upset.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:32:36

members, But's say they did that. How would Canadians react to that? I'm Only, I have no idea, but

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:32:44

it be really curious to see, and you know, in a weird way it would take certain wind out of the sales

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:32:52

of like

[jessa__she_her_] 00:32:53

I was just going to say that I'm like well, if you're going to call someone a tyrant if they you know, relinquish

[jessa__she_her_] 00:32:58

power to a collective. Um, you've got to. You've got to be down with that, but they can be very hypocritical in

[jessa__she_her_] 00:33:06

their positions, but in theory they would have to support that, and they be in conservatives, Right and the

[jessa__she_her_] 00:33:12

left would also, in theory support it because we believe in equality, right, Un equalization of power is included

[jessa__she_her_] 00:33:21

in that. And so, But how would we emotionally react or like, how would our engagement level be? I would like

[jessa__she_her_] 00:33:31

to think we'd then have to focus on the meat and potatoes,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:33:35

Right,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:33:36

right,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:33:36

right,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:33:36

the actual substance of what's being put forth, and you know

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:33:44

[jessa__she_her_] 00:33:44

that might hurt.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:33:44

hm,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:33:46

We might not be ready to actually look at how bad you know liberal policies really are When you point out you

[jessa__she_her_] 00:33:56

know the foreign policies of liberals and the real right wing stuff, like it hurts people to hear that like

[jessa__she_her_] 00:34:05

they just can't picture Tuto being that way, or maybe Canadians being that way. But

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:34:11

M, hm.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:34:14

yeah, now

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:34:16

It's

[jessa__she_her_] 00:34:16

I think

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:34:17

It's interesting like it comes back to like the systemic analysis right, like we're always attacking

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:34:26

various leaders criticising various leaders, but we never criticize leadership itself, you know,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:34:33

And maybe

[jessa__she_her_] 00:34:33

Well, we

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:34:34

that's

[jessa__she_her_] 00:34:34

did

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:34:34

just

[jessa__she_her_] 00:34:34

on one

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:34:34

like,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:34:34

episode called Re Imagining Leadership with Duncan Play,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:34:38

Ah, like

[jessa__she_her_] 00:34:40

I had to.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:34:41

I feel like this is like just me, the anarchist and me coming out quite a bit.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:34:46

Yeah,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:34:46

but like you know, like, like, there's different ways to do things is my point, and a lot of the time.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:34:54

the top down leadership structure is the very problem because one person can't do it all. We're all

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:35:03

incredibly flawed.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:35:04

And then

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:35:04

People like

[jessa__she_her_] 00:35:06

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:35:06

the

[jessa__she_her_] 00:35:06

yes,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:35:06

best of us is Credibly flawed. The best of us can't do it. That's kind of my point. The very best

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:35:14

person out of all of us cannot do it. It's

[jessa__she_her_] 00:35:18

Well,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:35:18

too

[jessa__she_her_] 00:35:18

there

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:35:18

much.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:35:18

is no best like. I think you said it right

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:35:20

yeah,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:35:20

the first time like we're all just like infallible creatures. Right And so that is a

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:35:25

[jessa__she_her_] 00:35:25

huge problem with those leadership calls too. Because we become, they become such easy targets. So if you could

[jessa__she_her_] 00:35:32

just discredit Jeremy Corban, you would take a huge look at the Labor party. Now look

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:35:41

Yeah,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:35:41

at the Labor party. Now all they had to do was pull some bullshit claim

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:35:46

[jessa__she_her_] 00:35:46

that

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:35:47

hm,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:35:47

he was in Semitic, and now the Labor party is just in ruins. It's destroyed. It's the ugliest thing I've

[jessa__she_her_] 00:35:54

ever seen to be honest, to have a labor

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:35:57

Brutal,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:35:57

in the name, although the Canadian labor Congress sometimes

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:36:00

Yeah,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:36:00

might uh, get in on that, but

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:36:05

[jessa__she_her_] 00:36:05

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:36:05

hm,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:36:06

yea, we put all our eggs in one basket, so to speak, and then it gets taken down and we are left with nothing.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:36:14

Uh, and another thing that pisces me up, too. You can't talk about your own leader. Everyone

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:36:21

Uh,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:36:21

on the

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:36:21

huh,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:36:21

left knows this is so in true. Um,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:36:25

[jessa__she_her_] 00:36:26

like you can't talk about Jegmet on the left for two reasons. One, you'll be labeled to resist or two. you're

[jessa__she_her_] 00:36:35

bringing down the left entirely. So we've apparently put all of our hopes into a person so much so that they are not

[jessa__she_her_] 00:36:41

even open to critique anymore, and we can position them so that you know Critique of them is quickly dismissed even

[jessa__she_her_] 00:36:51

if it's valid critique. Um, even I was once told I was criticizing the Magrath. She's the

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:37:00

Uh,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:37:01

national

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:37:01

uh,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:37:01

director because she was a woman. I identify woman by the like. That's what makes that slightly ironic. Is

[jessa__she_her_] 00:37:10

it was an anti woman position and it was so typical for women in politics to be bashed, And it was just You

[jessa__she_her_] 00:37:19

know, And the same thing goes with a Boma and the leaders that we have now like even bidin, even Burney brothers

[jessa__she_her_] 00:37:25

that were just like, No, not bidin like No, like I can't celebrate that. If it's not, it's burning your bust.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:37:33

They were told to just get in line behind the leader. You're making us all look bad, and in the end bidin is

[jessa__she_her_] 00:37:39

awful right. That was no victory by Burney brothers. Had every reason to say, like our guy are nobody at

[jessa__she_her_] 00:37:46

all, but I think that lie, Uh, gives credit to your theory earlier that the Burney Sanders movement was more

[jessa__she_her_] 00:37:53

about the grass roots than Burney himself. Like he did defer

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:37:59

I don't

[jessa__she_her_] 00:38:00

you,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:38:00

think

[jessa__she_her_] 00:38:00

don't ever.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:38:01

I think when it comes to Burney, I think

[jessa__she_her_] 00:38:03

Yeah,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:38:03

he genuinely doesn't want to be a leader, which I think is the best quality a leader can have.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:38:08

It's almost like he's saying, Don't take a picture of me Right, like

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:38:10

Yeah,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:38:10

the mittens, the cot, the dishevelled hair is like

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:38:14

[jessa__she_her_] 00:38:14

I'm

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:38:14

generally

[jessa__she_her_] 00:38:15

not going to sell

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:38:15

think

[jessa__she_her_] 00:38:15

any magazine. Stop.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:38:17

I genuinely think that he just kind of fell into this at a certain point, and and like that comes

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:38:23

back to like In twenty sixteen, Before you know he ran, he was trying to get Elizabeth Warren to run

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:38:29

instead, like he was trying to get someone else to do it, and then no one else to it. And then he

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:38:33

was like reluctantly, like Find. I guess it's up to me and and then it turned into a whole thing,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:38:40

But I think that's not something. that is it people are attracted to him Bout is that more grass roots?

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:38:46

And and I think they made an effort in the campaign to kind of talk about. You know, all of the door

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:38:51

knocking and all of the like, the grass roots part of the campaign and all of the like, single donations

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:38:57

and everything like that was. That was why that exploded. you know, And yeah, we don't have anything

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:39:06

like that here and people are already like, like with the N. d P. like people are already towing the

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:39:11

line Day one Like I remember, I saw a Where. Like saline panel was like saying about how they didn't

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:39:18

release the results of the vote And then somebody was like Oh, you gotta like fall in line and keep

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:39:24

all the discussions in house, because you're only helping

[jessa__she_her_] 00:39:26

Okay,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:39:27

for your divisive. comments are only helping for and I'm like, like, Are you

[jessa__she_her_] 00:39:30

You

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:39:30

serious?

[jessa__she_her_] 00:39:30

know I replied to that,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:39:33

Did you ex applied

[jessa__she_her_] 00:39:35

You know.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:39:35

to that?

[jessa__she_her_] 00:39:35

I. D. Yeah,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:39:36

The

[jessa__she_her_] 00:39:36

For sure. I can't believe people can still say that Now you know that they. still, we have not gone anywhere

[jessa__she_her_] 00:39:44

in terms of waking up to those kind of harms of just falling in line. Honestly, like history has provided

[jessa__she_her_] 00:39:52

us with so many examples, But left this surprise me in our hypocrisy and I'm just as guilty. Honestly of all of

[jessa__she_her_] 00:39:59

these things, it's not a. I'm the perfect left is kind of. I've fallen into all of them Traps, and I still do

[jessa__she_her_] 00:40:05

sometimes because even Burney, when we're talking about him, we can't romanticize him or corban,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:40:10

Yeah,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:40:10

because they also

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:40:11

that's

[jessa__she_her_] 00:40:11

have

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:40:11

the

[jessa__she_her_] 00:40:11

their

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:40:11

problem

[jessa__she_her_] 00:40:11

flaws right,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:40:13

Like, and that's not like, warm

[jessa__she_her_] 00:40:15

As do

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:40:15

and fuzzy

[jessa__she_her_] 00:40:16

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:40:16

like rosy glasses that I still have. Like I know when I'm talking about this that I'm just like seeing

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:40:22

this for the energy that I believe in. And you know and I don't. I don't even know any more. What's

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:40:29

what? I just, that's a problem. You want to believe in something you want to believe You know somebody.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:40:35

come along and just have the answers and save us. Like I was talking about how like, because like

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:40:41

I studied music, right like my, My dream would be really to just make music, do art cook, spend

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:40:52

time like you know, like the basics of life Like I just, I want to do that. I don't want to be trying

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:40:57

to save the world, but it's like, so like, Like somebody, please come and save all of us, But no,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:41:03

that's not what's going to happen. And and we have to do it ourselves, you know, and we all Have

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:41:10

to be a part of it.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:41:13

Yeah, like it's that does become a bit of it because you know you absolutely can't be fighting all the time

[jessa__she_her_] 00:41:19

either, So it's It's nice to think that someone is doing it. I think in reality, though those aren't even the

[jessa__she_her_] 00:41:26

folks doing the real work most of the time. Um,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:41:29

Hm,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:41:31

so they're not the people to be looking to. It's like all those other people, Um, that put them there. And

[jessa__she_her_] 00:41:38

even when we talk about leaderless movements. when we talk about some social movements, we, We stay there without

[jessa__she_her_] 00:41:44

leaders, but really there without propped up leaders. So you know you know that there's somebody that is like

[jessa__she_her_] 00:41:52

leading meetings, you know, chairing meetings, spear heading efforts, certain projects, you know,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:41:58

[jessa__she_her_] 00:41:59

and

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:41:59

hm,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:41:59

there are definitely people throughout history. Two that have just done really great things worth celebrating,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:42:07

worth learning from worth imitating. Um, But it's yeah, it's just that complete deference that we fall into

[jessa__she_her_] 00:42:18

that becomes really detrimental right because like there is, there is seventy positives to idolizing somebody.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:42:26

Because like I'm thinking of the poster behind me, like Chigavera, I am not unaware of

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:42:32

[jessa__she_her_] 00:42:33

the

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:42:33

hm,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:42:33

issues around that, but I'll tell you right now like I have read every piece of work that I've ever been

[jessa__she_her_] 00:42:41

able to get my hands on. I'm fully versed in the life of Chiavera and his actions, but I still hold him up

[jessa__she_her_] 00:42:52

in a high regard. I justify the things that he did For the ends that we're trying to meet. Um, and I don't

[jessa__she_her_] 00:43:07

hold any regret there at all, and I know he's not a perfect person, or was not a perfect person, But he, now

[jessa__she_her_] 00:43:15

for me, represents also this ideal of selflessness and sacrifice, and Like global solidarity, that is personified

[jessa__she_her_] 00:43:30

and it's sometimes there's not even a way for me to articulate other than through that imagery, and that might

[jessa__she_her_] 00:43:37

not even be rational. right. It is probably very emotional, but I only think I've drawn positives from whole

[jessa__she_her_] 00:43:49

from holding him in that high regard, and I teach my children about him And other leaders. You know, that

[jessa__she_her_] 00:43:57

will obviously have flowed past as well, but you know I definitely don't want anyone to come away with the

[jessa__she_her_] 00:44:03

idea that there isn't people to celebrate.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:44:08

No, And but that that's the key word is the people of it, which is that the people we celebrate are

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:44:15

still people, and all of us people

[jessa__she_her_] 00:44:17

Yeah,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:44:17

are incredibly flawed. You know what I mean,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:44:23

Because who isn't right? Like like,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:44:25

Exactly like

[jessa__she_her_] 00:44:26

I don't think you'd be truly human and it's I don't think. It's also even very self serving to the movement

[jessa__she_her_] 00:44:34

to display our leaders as perfect.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:44:37

No,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:44:37

I think

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:44:38

and

[jessa__she_her_] 00:44:38

there'd

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:44:38

I think

[jessa__she_her_] 00:44:38

be something relatable in error.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:44:41

And I think we need to focus on that on the left sometimes because it's like also, there was nobody

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:44:48

who had all the answers. None of us have all the answers. I'm I'm guarantee I'm wrong about a very

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:44:54

large amount of things that I don't even know that I'm wrong about,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:44:58

I'm

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:44:58

but

[jessa__she_her_] 00:44:58

not

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:44:58

none of. but you know what I mean. Right is just like. It's like just wanting somebody to have figured

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:45:05

it all out. Nobody figured it all out.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:45:07

No,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:45:08

Nobody, one, Thoughts and ideas of the answer. None of it is perfect is through the combination

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:45:18

of everyone that you're going to find the closest thing to an answer. You know. Like the answer lies

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:45:25

in people, not person, Not one person lies in all the people.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:45:32

And the same can be said for blame right some when we're looking to make

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:45:37

[jessa__she_her_] 00:45:38

big changes,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:45:38

hm,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:45:39

you know, switching out a minister or even like, Let's be honest. At this point, Pretty much anywhere in

[jessa__she_her_] 00:45:47

Canadian politics, even a new leader from a new party is really not going to make for transformative change

[jessa__she_her_] 00:45:57

like in your life. in your daily life. I know we've seen a marked decrease in Under Premier Forward, but you

[jessa__she_her_] 00:46:05

know it was declining under the Liberals, and Ontario had the worst example there where we came. So focused

[jessa__she_her_] 00:46:12

on Maginti. Was had that same forward kind of attack, ad ora to it where

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:46:18

[jessa__she_her_] 00:46:19

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:46:19

hm,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:46:19

was, you know, and he wasn't very handsome. He was. He was easy to demon Is, he just looked like a shady

[jessa__she_her_] 00:46:28

politician, to be honest, and he was awful and they were corrupt. They were so correct And they were able

[jessa__she_her_] 00:46:34

to just have a leadership race replaced with Kathleen Win, a kinder gentler version of the Liberals, who did

[jessa__she_her_] 00:46:41

the same policies. Like all the crumbs that we got for them were just leading into another election. They

[jessa__she_her_] 00:46:47

weren't things that they had actually had you know foundations for Um. And now we've fallen into that same

[jessa__she_her_] 00:46:56

trap where we think so. It was like if we could just get rid of the liberals. Now it's like if we could just

[jessa__she_her_] 00:47:01

get rid of four And then it would all be better and I just you know, even if that's Mike Shriner and the Liberals,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:47:09

I am really really skeptical on whether that or sorry or Merit, and the Ontario N P, that that would lead

[jessa__she_her_] 00:47:19

to a real big change in people's lives, But people would celebrate it none the less right. It would be like

[jessa__she_her_] 00:47:25

victory right, like I could only magine people in B. C. And you know, Alberta and Ottley got in and like that

[jessa__she_her_] 00:47:32

The excitement of finally voting for a winner and getting a winner and then expecting them to transform everything,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:47:39

and it just seems incredibly naive. Now

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:47:45

I just thought about something, which is Because we said you mentioned earlier about how Trump is kind

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:47:53

of like Outside of the rule in this

[jessa__she_her_] 00:47:56

Seems

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:47:56

[jessa__she_her_] 00:47:56

to be

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:47:57

he's What about bidin? where it's like nobody. Actually, nobody actually cared about him as a leader

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:48:05

like there wasn't. Nobody was getting the rosy glasses

[jessa__she_her_] 00:48:09

Capital.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:48:10

of No, But, but

[jessa__she_her_] 00:48:12

You

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:48:12

you know

[jessa__she_her_] 00:48:12

mean

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:48:12

what

[jessa__she_her_] 00:48:13

you mean regular folk,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:48:14

I'm

[jessa__she_her_] 00:48:14

you

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:48:14

talking

[jessa__she_her_] 00:48:14

mean

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:48:15

about. Like, Yeah, like the people, the electorate, you know,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:48:17

The working class?

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:48:19

the work Class,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:48:20

No,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:48:20

but like people weren't like he was in a cult. A personality. Let me just

[jessa__she_her_] 00:48:25

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:48:25

say

[jessa__she_her_] 00:48:25

he,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:48:25

that,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:48:25

is he the anti leadership called leader? Is he going to

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:48:29

Uh,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:48:29

break down

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:48:30

uh,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:48:31

our idea that we could ever need to trust in our leaders again Like it's just like throw anyone up there Doesn't

[jessa__she_her_] 00:48:37

matter. Well,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:48:38

But and that's kind of the thing right? Is that like? Maybe that's the answer When I asked Like, What

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:48:44

if the Liberals didn't have a leader? it would just be like the Democrats of Bidin, where it's just

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:48:49

like you know, I don't know. Like,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:48:53

Our system

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:48:54

like,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:48:54

is a little different, but I get what you're talking about.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:48:57

Yeah, it's just like It didn't matter there. It did not matter that he was like the least appealing

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:49:05

leader ever, and that nobody really liked him and that he was not a good speaker and had no policies

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:49:13

to like. He had nothing. He had nothing going for him. nothing at all except that he wasn't Trump, who

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:49:20

was the cultive leader and he beat the cultive leader. So I guess forty nine minutes into this episode

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:49:27

I don't know where I am. Not any more because I I don't know. Just politic bad is that

[jessa__she_her_] 00:49:36

No, Well, I think you drifted into the partisanship to that like No matter who you put up there, Umweyll, vote for

[jessa__she_her_] 00:49:44

right. So that kind of lessons. Our argument that everything is based on leadership

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:49:49

Yah?

[jessa__she_her_] 00:49:49

called, but it definitely plays into it because I'm going to say this. It sounds self serving, but in my writing

[jessa__she_her_] 00:49:56

you know ur, M P, who I ran against twice so obviously I'm a sore loser, but literally you could have run

[jessa__she_her_] 00:50:01

a dead fish not because it was me as the opponent, but because they Goin to vote conservative no matter what like

[jessa__she_her_] 00:50:08

He cannot speak publicly. sweats whenever he has to, he just repeats the same words he embarrasses himself

[jessa__she_her_] 00:50:15

on in committee on camera, And it's just endless, but it really even people in town. you go door to door and folks

[jessa__she_her_] 00:50:23

were like. Oh, I went to school with him. I don't think I could vote for him, but you know and you know they

[jessa__she_her_] 00:50:28

did anyway. you know. Like so partizanship like that's another episode Als agother

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:50:34

Yeah,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:50:35

that we've kind of Dived into a little bit, But yeah,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:50:39

I think the message is less. I mean, cult leadership is the message, but I think the overall thing

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:50:44

is just cult cult mentality, cult politics,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:50:47

There you go. cult politics Like you've renamed the episode As we've We've gone along, but you know

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:50:54

But

[jessa__she_her_] 00:50:54

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:50:54

[jessa__she_her_] 00:50:54

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:50:54

think

[jessa__she_her_] 00:50:54

it with

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:50:54

that

[jessa__she_her_] 00:50:55

capital.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:50:55

we have gone into that like throughout the episode of Like, Explain

[jessa__she_her_] 00:50:58

Oh yeah,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:50:58

to other things, And like that is like, and that comes back to like. These cults of leaders are not actually

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:51:05

seen as people. The sin is something else, Gods, or whatever you know. Like

[jessa__she_her_] 00:51:11

I think we do that with a lot of people in the public sphere.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:51:15

[jessa__she_her_] 00:51:15

you know,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:51:16

hm,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:51:16

they become a bit of like fair game, but also this, even like when you think of when you're a little kid, and

[jessa__she_her_] 00:51:23

you realize your teacher has an outside life like a real life, like a family, and they go to the grocery store

[jessa__she_her_] 00:51:28

and your mind is blown that they exist

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:51:30

Dum.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:51:30

outside of the realm that you experience them in.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:51:33

You mean they don't plug them into recharge underneath the cafeteria

[jessa__she_her_] 00:51:37

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:51:37

every

[jessa__she_her_] 00:51:37

mean,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:51:38

day.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:51:39

I mean

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:51:39

[jessa__she_her_] 00:51:40

to get the things that they get Done. they must, but know, like, um, yeah, they're kind of like different

[jessa__she_her_] 00:51:46

entities. We do that with capitalists who you know, we attack Galen Weston a lot, And you know that's fair

[jessa__she_her_] 00:51:53

game. We can. You can hit on Galen Weston, and should, but think of all the other millionaires that are

[jessa__she_her_] 00:51:58

just like Galen's, taking the heat for all of us, sucker,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:52:01

Uh,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:52:01

you know, like all of them are ferfixing

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:52:03

uh,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:52:04

our prices. All of them are getting rich off our misery. but Galen decides to put himself into commercial,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:52:10

and now he's just like The

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:52:13

Those

[jessa__she_her_] 00:52:13

king

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:52:13

commercials

[jessa__she_her_] 00:52:13

of mimes.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:52:14

scare me so much. so

[jessa__she_her_] 00:52:16

Well, they

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:52:16

anyone

[jessa__she_her_] 00:52:16

should,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:52:16

who can speak like that is just like you know. like like that. Like that artificial carisma,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:52:24

Well,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:52:24

It's horrifying. It really is a scary thing is like. Oh you are. You have no empathy and are very scary

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:52:36

like I don't know like that's just

[jessa__she_her_] 00:52:39

Well, it takes a certain kind to lead in that way, right to exploit to that level. But you know about you mentioned

[jessa__she_her_] 00:52:46

this about bidin, and uh, just now about this foe. Carisma. the Greeks, also back to the Greeks,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:52:54

Yeah,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:52:54

warned us of orators, right of people who are well spoken, and that they will persuade you to do things, And

[jessa__she_her_] 00:53:01

it's kind of like look up here and listen and I'm picturing myself just crying to a Boma speeches right, just

[jessa__she_her_] 00:53:07

balling my eye So that that that emotion that those moments evoked, and then looking back on that and feeling

[jessa__she_her_] 00:53:14

so ridiculous and thinking of that warning from the Greeks, that like those are actually the people to be

[jessa__she_her_] 00:53:19

worried about. You know, I say this as a podcastare. That's talking into him

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:53:24

[jessa__she_her_] 00:53:24

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:53:24

say

[jessa__she_her_] 00:53:24

all the time. Don't listen to

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:53:25

[jessa__she_her_] 00:53:25

people

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:53:26

rabbelerousers

[jessa__she_her_] 00:53:26

who are well spoken.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:53:27

when they warned about rabble rouses specifically to

[jessa__she_her_] 00:53:32

We. We're not gonna listen

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:53:32

[jessa__she_her_] 00:53:32

to that part. I'm just cherry picking what I need

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:53:36

[jessa__she_her_] 00:53:36

from the ancient Greeks to make my point, Santiago.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:53:40

No, and

[jessa__she_her_] 00:53:41

Geese,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:53:42

to be fair, some of these ancient Greeks involved, like you know, the Platos, the Aristotles, who they

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:53:50

warned about the speakers, and then said, And this is why we need aristocracies and all garches,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:53:57

And you know

[jessa__she_her_] 00:53:59

Yes, no, they're not. They're definitely not like leading examples, but you know.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:54:05

No, but it's but it's funny how like they wren about the thing that they are.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:54:08

Yeah,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:54:08

To you know what I mean, Like they were good speakers. They were like clearly because we're still

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:54:13

teaching about them. but it's like and then they would warn about the exact kind of people that

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:54:19

they were like.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:54:21

Well, that's an ad hominem attack.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:54:23

[jessa__she_her_] 00:54:24

It's still a valid argument even if there jerks

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:54:27

No, but it's just like the irony of it, you know,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:54:29

now

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:54:30

like very.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:54:30

and the hypocrisy like, Yeah, that I'm also demonstrating throughout this episode repeatedly.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:54:36

M. Hm,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:54:38

But yeah, now I appreciate coming on to kind of hash this out with me because it just wasn't sitting well

[jessa__she_her_] 00:54:44

and I think I've kind of transition from one camp to another and I freed myself of a lot of cult mentality

[jessa__she_her_] 00:54:51

and include like Nationalism, partisanship and leadership cults, Kind of all, there, all really deserving

[jessa__she_her_] 00:54:58

a globalist socialist revolution. So I'm working on it myself and I thought it would be helpful to have this discussion

[jessa__she_her_] 00:55:06

so maybe audience members could start to challenge their perception of how we view leaders and how we should structure

[jessa__she_her_] 00:55:16

ourselves around them. Because yeah, they shouldn't shape ever Thing. You know, That's really

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:55:23

No,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:55:23

not. that wouldn't be pursuant to our goals right, but we do it anyway, so I think there's certainly work

[jessa__she_her_] 00:55:34

to do there, but yeah, we got to start somewhere.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:55:40

Well, yeah, yeah, I don't. I don't know. Cult got to just look at. Learn about cults. I guess, because

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:55:47

that's all. this is cult

[jessa__she_her_] 00:55:50

Yeah,

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:55:50

mentality. I don't even know anymore.

[jessa__she_her_] 00:55:52

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:55:53

This was just all over the place, but

[jessa__she_her_] 00:55:55

Dam.

[santiago_helou_quintero] 00:55:55

I feel like we got somewhere, so yeah,

[jessa__she_her_] 00:55:59

Yeah, now I'm still like piecing it together, but we're good.