So what's going on, everybody? I don't know which camera to look at. I've got three of them kind of going here just in case.

So go from camera to camera with intense thoughts.

We'll see. John's camera might be lacking.

Yeah, you can't hit my camera. Why is my camera lacking?

Yours is trained on you.

Yeah, there's a lot of lack. There's a lot of questionable stuff.

So, yeah, this is gonna be episode two of the Rabbit Hole.

Let's run down that rabbit hole.

Yes, sir. We're trying something new. We've gotten away from the recording studio. So if you hear extra noises, that's why. No apologies. Also, we kind of. I don't know if we actually put the disclaimer out last time, but we talked about the fact that we are gonna have a disclaimer that this is a rabbit hole. This is conversations. This is kind of thoughts that pop into our head. So it's not representative of actual beliefs of necessarily any of us, honestly.

It's not necessarily doctrine.

This is just a kind of random discussion and where our brains go with things. And so there's that. Also, if you're watching, I guess we should put out a.

Smoking'S bad for you.

Smoking's bad for you warning. So there's that. And age appropriately.

Must be 18, 21. Was it 21 now?

Tell me what to buy.

Yeah, must be 21 years old.

Right. And be responsible, all that stuff. So for those of you on that camera that. Yeah, I have a hard time looking at multiple cameras, so. So, yeah, so we'll kick it off. I am Derek. I am the host and founder of the Truth Response. And I am here today with Kevin and Mad Cow, the one and the only. And they have both been on the podcast before John does our men's podcasts, when we have them, which I know we've been lacking. But it's been a wild couple of months. Lots of different things have happened that's come up that's completely ruined our schedules. So.

Yeah, but God's working in the church.

It's good.

100%. Absolutely. And I just throwing that out there. There's things that have come up. So.

And I'm Kevin. I was on the initial rabbit hole because I'm always and forever going down the rabbit hole.

That is true.

I think it was your idea.

It was.

I was gonna say, like you. You had that idea.

This is my first time on a rabbit hole.

Ready to run.

Well, look, man, it's one of those things where you get some spiritually mature people in a room where you can actually talk about things that are uncomfortable. It's wonderful and it evokes great thought and it evokes a greater relationship with God.

Look, I'm either here along for the ride or I'm going to be able to chip in. We'll see. We'll see. We'll see how much I can chip in.

Well, this is. This is a sports car, man. We don't have any passenger seats, so you got to have to do some driving.

We'll see. See how y' all might not like my driving. I don't know. I may not be able to do any driving. I'll just hang on for dear life and see where it goes and make a comment here and there.

Fair enough.

So for those of you who have are regular listeners, which most of you probably are, cuz technically we said that the only people that had access to the Rabbit Hole were Patreon subscribers. But I might release this one to YouTube just because. Just as an intro, as an a second. Fair enough baiting of it because I really like them and we had a really good response last time we. We did it. So I may do that. Anyways. We'll see. So if you are one of our regular listeners, what we normally do is we normally have some sort of like, lesson or topic in mind for our regular podcast. This one, we're just gonna kind of start talking about something. I'm sure one of the three of us has something interesting thought provoking to kick things off with. So there may or may not be people that show up in the midst of this. We don't really know until it happens. So we'll see how it goes. So welcome to the Rabbit Hole.

Deeper down the rabbit hole Deeper down the rabbit hole Deeper down the rabbit hole Deeper down the rabbit hole Deeper.

Down the river O here we go.

You got different music. You got different music.

For the record, I was thinking of Veggie Tales theme song.

I was thinking, like, that'd be so.

Fun for Looney Tunes.

Be really good. Is if I could get the. The Firefly funhouse music and put it on there. Which is probably the only Wyatt's.

He's probably the only one that's heard that because I haven't.

I've never heard of it.

It's whimsical, like, oh, it's just like whimsical. It's Bray Wyatt. He's a wrestler, one of my favorite wrestlers. It was like he had this, like. I've heard of Braden Wyatt, dual Persona, demon, not demon thing going on. And he was like.

Was he one of the Sullivan brothers?

I don't know. He passed away about two years.

No, I don't think he was on the summer.

I mean, he's younger. He's probably just a little.

Okay, probably not then.

So anyways.

But, hey. But part of the cool thing about the rabbit. The rabbit hole is there is no format. It is any question that comes to mind. Okay. I'll leave the one that. That my son brought up a couple weeks ago in case he shows up. But one of them is. It's always interesting to me, people's idea of what happens to us when we die. Okay, now I'll start with. I'll start with a theory. I'm not necessarily theorious about it, but.

Wow.

But.

They just never stop. They just never stop. They just keep on coming.

My wife lives with this.

They just never stop.

We're done.

It's over. That's it. That's the good. Thanks for listening. So.

So here's a thought. Okay.

A theory.

A theoryus one. So ethereously, when. When we're born, the woman goes through labor prior to birth, the baby knows. The baby hears sounds. Baby reacts to those sounds. When in the womb, the baby does not know what's going on in the outside world, but does know of its existence. Would you agree with that?

Yes. Because it can respond while in the womb to noises or whatever. My son would respond when I would talk. I would talk onto my wife's belly and talk to him, and he would kick and respond to. I can go big talking to it. I'm just saying.

Do you like raspberries? Come on.

Yeah, I don't know if he liked it. I did do raspberries. I don't know if he liked it, but he would always. He would always start moving and jostling. She would. She would always be able to say, oh, he's kicking. You don't feel that? So I feel it. And then that's. I mean, he would be more active when I would be talking or just messing around with her belly with him.

All right, and where do you got biblical?

Well, I mean, you have John leaping in. In Elizabeth's womb when Mary came around with Jesus. So that was kind of a giveaway.

Yeah.

So.

So then. So then here's the next thought on this. As we work through the archetypes of the Bible throughout our lives, and a lot of the Old. Old Testament gets justified by the New Testament, and none of these things work throughout History together. Think about the concept that we are currently in the womb. We as humanity are in the womb. We know there's a hereafter, we know there's something out there. And we respond to our Father's voice when he calls or when he rubs the belly or whatever it is that instills in us that he's calling us because he has to call us. And I contend that perhaps when we die is the birthing into the new reality. And therefore it is very much like we have on this earth when we get into the spiritual realm. I won't put that out there for thought. What do you guys think?

I mean, as far as, like, okay, conceptually, sure. I mean, you could say that about thoughts, you could say that about all kinds of things, you know, that, that work that way. I mean, I don't know.

Well, shoot holes in it.

I mean, I don't really have holes to shoot in it because really what, what you're talking about is just passing into a new, new type of existence is all.

But it would also just. It would also explain God, who stands out of time, is still here with us. Just like the mother is still in the room with the baby when it's born. But now it's the first time the baby sees the mother.

So I guess here's a question for you then off of that. Do you think that we will step out of time at that point?

I don't know. It's what brings the question, because it always throws me off when people who have had near death experiences or death and then come back and they say they've seen Christ or they've seen God or they've seen heaven and they come back. Yet when you, when you look scripturally, it seems like the saints will rest until Christ comes and wakes us, if you will. So that's where the question is born of. I don't know if we're laying in a tomb until the second Coming or if, hey, we're up in front of Judgment and what's up, God? Here we are. So that's sort of where that thought comes from. And I figured it sparks discussion either way.

I don't know. I like Dante's idea. I don't agree with it, but I like it. And I like that whole concept of like, you know, there's different punishments at different levels. There's a holding place for those in limbo and paradise for those.

I don't think that's scriptural, the purgatory style, but I do think it's from.

Catholics Okay, I, I do think that there is some sort of purgatory style holding place before we actually go to heaven or hell is something that could be argued from scripture, could be argued against from Scripture. I mean, that's one that's kind of a toss up out there. But that's. So when, when Jesus turns to the thief on the cross, he says, today you'll be with me in paradise.

Right.

Paradise was generally used as that waiting place before you went to heaven. And when it's talked about and then you've got Sheol, which is the opposite, which people will argue is the holding place before you go to hell, which I could see it could be a bad translation, But I'm not 100% on that, to be honest.

Sheol was also the word they used for like their trash. They would take their trash and burn it outside. So that was what they would also call. That was their only idea of what they were describing hell to be. So that's how it got the name she Hul, because it was what they were doing. That's where they took all their traction, just got burnt. All the text, from what I, I have heard, that's what it means also.

Sure.

So. So when people say it never mentions hell. Well, technically it never does.

Right.

Because they had no concept of it. Right. The only concept they had of it was their trash heat that they would have to burn.

Right.

So no revelation speaks of hell.

Right. But revelation wasn't around at that time. I'm just saying. Yeah, well, not just that, but when the New Testament, when the New Testament was being written, most of it there, it's still their only idea of she hole meant where they would go and take their trash and burn their trash. Where the unwanted and the just the stuff that was worthless just went and got burnt up. Because they wouldn't keep it inside the city, they'd have to take it out. Like most of their waste they would take outside the city anyways. But that's basically where it was. It was their waste area that they would go and just burn. And that's where the name, from what I understand that's where Sheol came from. And that was why hell got that same thing was because it was their idea of what it was.

Well, okay, let me, let me play with that.

I could be wrong, but that was what I had heard. No, it's totally possible that's what I had heard from somebody else.

But we do have Jesus giving an example of what either there'll be gnashing or a holding place Thereof is like with the story of Abraham's bosom and the other Lazarus. Because that always threw me off.

That threw me off for a while too.

I thought they were the same people. For a long time I thought there was the same people. And I was like, wait a second. But that doesn't match up with his leg life, you know, so anyways, so but they talk about, you know, you know, getting a glimpse into paradise and vice versa and, and that sort of thing and that, that story that Jesus tells. So I don't know if it's just parable or if it's, you know, accurate, just depiction. But I would think that out of everybody who could tell an accurate depiction, Jesus would be the one, you know, So I don't see him leading us astray in any sort of way on that one.

I mean, I just know that the name she Hulk came from the trash heap. Right. And that was what most people just.

Sheol is generally spoken of in the Old Testament, but that was still.

So let's talk about the purgatory factor or what the waiting room, Abraham's bosom, whatever you want to call it, is that if you believe that that exists, then what is its purpose?

No, you want the Catholic term, Catholics believe.

I know the Catholic term, that that's.

Where you go to pay for your sins. So only saints, they go straight to heaven, right? Well, everyone else who is not a saint, they go to purgatory and they pay eons of years for their sins in Purgatory. Quite Hell. But it's not heaven either.

The way we were taught in Catholic Church when I, when I attended the Purgatory was for the sins that were on your soul when you died. So.

Right, but again, which is more reasonable.

But I mean, as far as that goes.

Right, but also.

Well, so, but it also goes with the tenant that you have to earn heaven.

The only person, the only people who technically didn't die with sin on them were who they saints and saints.

Yeah.

And so if you were nominated to saint, you go straight to heaven, you never went to purgatory. But then again, it's man nominated as a saint.

So, so wait, but then. Yeah, but then how do they, what do they feel about hell? Cuz like, oh, hell.

Hell exists.

Hell exists.

Yeah.

Hell is for those that aren't Catholic.

Hell is for children.

Hell are for those that aren't Catholic. Purgatory are for those that didn't live a perfect life like saints and popes. So you go to purgatory and you have to basically pay for your sins, you can go to heaven, but after you've paid the allotted amount of time, it's like a holding.

Perfect.

It's like a holding cell. Well, this last poll, probably far from. No, he was far from.

Far from. Yeah, look, the, the, the guy that.

Was waiting for him, boy, they kicked the doors open.

Brad, I grew up. I grew up in a Catholic church, man. And I look, I look at a lot of it and I go, I understand people are trying to do good because that's what the Lord wants. But what really turned my faith and what I really would, if I were to tell Catholics and, or questioning Catholics, the real departure from the church for me was the change of heart. It's not that your actions are different. It's the motive, why you're doing the action. If I am sitting here doing good deeds because I think that it will earn me a spot in heaven, my heart is wrong, but I'm still doing the right thing, right?

Well, it's not virtuous then, right?

Correct.

I was, I was taught in, in college that virtue is doing the right thing at the right time for the right reason in the right way. And that, that is. Then what is virtuous? Okay, so you can, you can do the right things, you can do them at the right times for a selfish reason, you know, or you could do the right thing at the right time in the right way for selfish reason, you know? You know what I mean? And it doesn't count as virtuous. But.

Well, some of the struggle I had with it has to do with. Also, though God doesn't change his mind. God is perfect he's ever been.

Okay, you're really gonna go down a rabbit hole.

That's okay. God. God can allow for room for change if we respond to his call, but God on His own does not change his mind. He did not make a mistake and go, I got a better way to do it now. But he does allow for free will and allows for that change to occur because of it.

So, okay, let me hop in because I bet I get too far down that rabbit hole without talking about this. So, okay, God by himself, minus other creatures, per se. Okay, God, the triune God.

Absence of outside stimulus won't change his.

Mind because he doesn't need to. Right, Right. And need to is probably the wrong word, but I'm going to use it. He created us and he set the rules for us and he taught us how to communicate with him. And the fact that like, even in scripture, talking about, like when he says that if my people who are called by my name would fall to their knees and pray like that, that changes things, right? When that's, that's what he asked for from Israel, whenever, so. And I'll spare him, basically. Right? So like, and so there is a change of mind. He is changing his mind because he is allowing his people the opportunity to interject. And based on whether or not they will, he's willing to change his mind now.

Okay, so he leaves them and out. Which is consistent with what I think he leaves.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just want. Because there's a lot of people that are like, God can't change his mind. Well, it's like, eh. But he does because it, I mean even scripture says he changed his mind.

Well, that's like the fun one that goes down another rabbit hole which is God can't look upon sin.

Sin.

Well if God is perfect, God can look upon sin. He looks upon us, but God does not exist with sin. A little bit different statement, but gets caught up in the translation all the time.

I think that's. I don't know if I agree with that though. See, because like, even, even then like.

God can do whatever he wants, right?

There's that and there's also examples in scripture, right? Like we have to take that into consideration. And even if those are one offs, we can't make an absolute statement if there's even just one example of the opposite, right? Like that, that ruins the absolute, which I think that we need to talk a little less in absolutes. Even though I think things are pretty black and white, which is really confusing in and of itself. But I think that like, even, even the fact that like Satan and him can have a conversation breaks that they're long time friends. But I'm saying like he, he is evil and God is good.

I know, but that.

I know you're.

That'll. That'll send me down another rabbit hole. This would be like a whole burrow of rabbits, dude.

That's what we told them to get ready for. So.

All right, so get ready. I hope you got your seatbelts on because look there.

John's like, I don't know if I should have been here for this.

Here's.

I have something to say.

Well, here's, here's a theory. God being perfect knew everything that was going to happen. Therefore, not only did Lucifer not rebel, quote unquote, but Lucifer in this theory was sent on a mission by God because he was his favorite. He was the most trusted. He was the one God could rely on the most to do the hardest job there is. And that would be to create order out of chaos and to manage the process for his children to reach him. And the only way for that to happen is there had to be choice. And choice of good and evil is free will. So therefore God needed somebody to instigate or to initiate those, we'll call it distractions, whatever it is that you want to say that the demonic forces do in our lives to distract us and keep us from God. If he in fact in his perfection sent Lucifer on that mission, it would be the grandest and the greatest mission ever given. And it would be befitting of his greatest angel. Now that said, it does not negate the fact that his fall from heaven was part of that plan. And in taking that mission, it was necessary for him to become Satan and to become evil incarnate. Because his job is now to give us the opportunity to move away from God, therefore fulfilling free will. That is a mission born of God to create free will for his children. Without Lucifer, Satan, it could not have happened. So why, why do we think that this was a rebellion instead of God sending him on a mission?

I think to answer that or to talk about that, we have to like also talk about what, what happens to Lucifer in the end, right?

Yep.

And.

If, if that's the case, right, like if what you're saying is true, then that would mean technically God unjustly sends Satan.

Not true. Because God's message is till the end of time, God sits out of time. Lucifer could rejoin him after time.

That's to say that there is an end of time.

Well, we talk a lot about the end of ages and ages are within time. They're construct. We know that God sits outside of time and we know that, that he can commune with the devil, which means the devil that's outside of time.

Well, we can commune with God.

Yes, we can.

So but we're not outside of time.

No, we are subject to time. What I'm suggesting is that currently under current role, Satan is subject to time because he is lord over this world. But in the end times, I believe that God will call him home. And again, it's not something that's a doctrine to my faith or anything. It's just a thought that occurs when you're contemplating why God did what he did. And I just voice had a hard time believing that God in his perfection would allow for a rebellion that he wasn't prepared for and or did not orchestrate.

Why he lets us do things that we, he doesn't orchestrate.

He gave us free will.

Yeah. Who said that he didn't give the angels free will?

Well, that would be the question we under here.

Well, I mean, I think that.

Do you have evidence that shows that he gave angels free will without.

Without having to go outside of, you know, without having to come up with theories outside of Scripture? Because I think that.

Right.

I'm saying what you're, what you are going with.

I'm just going behind motive of what.

Right.

Which I'm assigning motive to a fact.

Yeah.

But you're. You're also operating outside of direct wording in scripture, Right? Yep. So. So with that theory, what I would say to that is it says that a third of Heaven's legions chose to follow.

Right.

So there was a choice at that time. Again, if you ponder that, that he put him on the mission and the third chose to go with.

Well, then how do you. How do you justify the. The, you know, Lucifer feeling himself as more important than.

I don't know. Again, there's. It's a theory.

So this is what I. Yeah, go ahead. You've heard about the three. About the third. So we know of three archangels, correct? Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer was one of them. They all hadn't. They all had a mission. They all had a certain job to do. Satan's was worship.

Okay.

Or Lucifer's was worship.

Right.

He had all the instruments. So the third of the angels that were with him were part of the worship part.

Okay.

I don't remember the roles that took off. So I don't. So I don't. I don't remember the exact.

That's why we had to step up.

I don't. I don't remember the exact roles that are labeled for Michael engagement. But we do know that worship was.

One was a warrior and the other.

Was a messenger, I think.

Messenger.

Yeah. So. But we know that Lucifer was. Was. And so a third, all of them are over. A third of all the angels, they fell under them. Under the. So what I had heard is that since he was over, he no longer wanted to give the worship to. He no longer wanted the. The angels under him to give the worship to God. He wanted to worship himself.

Right.

Because he was already considered beautiful. That he was given light bear or.

You know, and, and if I can.

Interject though the morning I don't.

Was given that, I'd not disagree. What I'm doing is I'm assigning motive to that plague scenario.

But could it have been if they have a free will because Obviously they do. If they. If a third that were under his command went with him. They obviously have a free.

So that we are obviously choose. Have free will.

I think so I think that they can choose as well.

But I think their choices are a bigger deal than ours.

Okay.

And here's why. Because they have way better understanding of what they're choosing.

So their accountability would be they, they know they're.

They're coming from a place of knowing.

They'Re in the presence of the Almighty.

Way more than we do.

And there's a.

Beyond the shadow of a doubt right of knowledge that God is who they're.

Not operating on faith. They're operating.

You know we can assume because nowhere does it say but they were probably created before we were. They were just angels. They weren't necessarily created in his image.

Okay.

They were created for a purpose. They were created for a set purpose. Which is why you have worship, you have messengers, you have had the warriors. They all had a purpose in place where our purpose because was to embrace the image that he had put upon us which is totally different. Which requires all those aspects that he had given to individual angels. So not all of them. So.

Well, as well as we go down this trail I'm going to put a disclaimer in there that again, these are. These are great thoughts. And as you go through your own scriptural journey, these are meant in no way to make somebody question their faith or give them an understanding other than what is in the Bible. Right.

Which is. Let me.

But to go back to why I was saying right Reason why worship should be so important to us is because the angels are no longer offering that worship. The main priority, the main, the main one responsible for the worship rebelled or in your way was sent away and took the primary. No there are worship leader. The worship leader left with the worship team. Now other people can still look there are angels up there who are still worshiping and saying. But the primary job of what theirs was to do was to give worship 247 which is why he wants to worship from us.

Which is the choice now. Okay. Do you think that is the cause and effect of it?

What?

Or do you think he wants worship from us because he wants our love? I think the stand independent.

I think it. I think it's both because I don't think it's the cause and effect from it. It's. It's. He loves us but he. He created us differently. Which is another thing why Satan didn't like it. He was the most beautiful, right? He was not created in God's image. But he was created to give him worship. But now God wants this other thing. He wants this man, this other creation that isn't as beautiful as we are to give him worship. And he wants that worship more than he wants my worship. He desires that worship from us where they were created for that worship. We have a choice to give him that worship. And that was where Satan got jealous is he was created for it and God didn't want it as much as he wanted. And what was from us.

Right, and I understand that, that theoretical discourse. I. I'm. I'm just suggesting.

I think. I think scripture puts a hole in.

Your cool, let's go with it.

So Isaiah 14:12, 15 says how you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn, you have been cast down to the earth. You who once laid low the nations. You said in your heart. I will listen. This is in quotes. I will ascend to the heavens. I will raise my throne above the stars of God. I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds. I will make myself like the most High. But you are brought down to the realm of the dead, to the depths of the pit. So this is talking about like there's motive behind why Satan did.

He wanted to worship that God was.

But again, could God not have assigned him that desire?

He could, but could. But then, then you're. You're playing with the idea that God's placing. Just because. Just because.

Keep. Keep going down that thought you're on track.

Right, Right. But what I'm saying is like there's also sin. And God can't cause anything to sin. Right? Like God can't cause Satan to sin.

No, but he built Egypt up so he could destroy him and show his glory. To show his power.

He built Egypt up in hopes that he wouldn't have to.

Okay. And maybe he built Satan up in hopes he wouldn't have to.

Sure.

But it doesn't him on that mission because at that point he. Then, then what you're saying is that he sent Satan.

What I'm saying is all things for God's glory. Very scriptural. Everything, all things for God.

But it doesn't mean that everything is what God wants.

Didn't say that. But all things work for glory of.

Those who believe 100%. And Satan being told by God to go and do these things, that that is. Then would. That would be you saying is that's God's will or God?

No, I would say it's very much like in the book of Job when Satan is talking to God and says, let me do this to him and he will fall. And he says, okay, but don't kill him, God. Let him have play over Job's life.

Sure.

And if he's letting him, he's letting Satan have sway over all our lives. He gave dominion of this earth.

And possibly, possibly Satan came to God while Adam and Eve were in the garden, were like, look, let me toy with them because their perfect love is not there for you in this. Because, I mean, that could have been a conversation they had. We don't know that part.

Right, right.

We don't.

And that's why this is all theoretical. But I'm sitting here going, okay, it's consistent with God throughout the whole thing that he creates paths for us to reach out for him. He calls us. And therefore he has to orchestrate it all because we cannot reach him. He must reach us. And once he reaches us and has that personal relationship with us, it is through his. His recipe, if you will. And I feel that there are a lot of bad things that happen in the earth that he does not do, but he allows to have happened, as we've all observed throughout our life. What if what we do with them is where it comes to the next statement.

But what if God doesn't. Doesn't have to find you first for you to find God?

You can't.

Why?

You can't find God without the spirit or God. Allow God calling out to you. You can't.

Where is it in scripture?

I could probably go.

Because the scripture says knock and the door will be open.

Right. But he. He's got to provide the door. You can't just knock on any door. It's going to be the door.

It's there for everyone Right this second. Boom.

Right. But he will reveal that door to you.

Right. Like when they say the cross is folly to the one who does not believe, but it is a pure power of God to those who do.

Sure.

Okay. Unless God calls you, you don't hear it.

He's called all.

Okay?

Scripturally speaking, he is called everyone.

Okay.

And Jesus died for everyone. Yep. The goal was everyone okay. That goal can't happen because choice.

Okay.

Right. Man's choice plays a factor in that. But there is the potential for this is. This is my problem with the idea of the lack of free will. Right. Or the. What is that? Calvinism? Yeah. That's my biggest problem with Calvinism is the Idea that well you know, God ordained these people and it's like well actually that goes against scripture. So how do you reconcile the two? And they'll be like well you know, the people that, that don't choose are the people that aren't there, but the people who do choose are the ones that were preordained. And I'm like okay. But then scripture still says but both.

Sides are blocking out scripture to fit.

Their oh, you mean that versus Arminianism?

Yes. There has to be a even people. We take the scripture that we want to think the most and that's the one we go with and we just forget about this other oh, this other one doesn't matter anymore.

Well that's why I was asking like what do you got me and some.

Me and somebody else got onto this.

Same.

Yes, I believe so I don't believe in Calvinism. His theology was incomplete.

Okay, sure.

Now what he was saying was not wrong. It was just incomplete theology because in Calvinism they leave out them Jesus died for they only say your they only go with the few where, where you know, the potter makes what he wants and chooses for it what how he wants it to be. And you know your predestined all that. That's the only ones that they're using. But they also forget that Jesus came and died for all. But so that whole I forget what part of the tulip that stands in but we I'll remember in a minute. But I, I believe in all of their stuff. It's just the way that they explain it is incomplete because they leave out other verses which they're all in there. So they all have to be side by side. The one is just as good as the other one. It's not the one doesn't negate the other one. They're there. So I got into the discussion about limited atonement. I believe in limited atonement. The problem is, is the person that I was discussing with which he, he never heard when I first said that I don't believe in the way Calvin explains it. But atonement is limited. And he's like explain. So I tried to explain. When something's limited, it can mean two things. Either a limited number of people or a limited way you can either have like this podcast is limited to just us. Okay, so or has to be open to everybody. But it's a limited because this is the only kind of podcast offering this.

Let me read what what Calvinism states about limited atonement. This doctrine states that Christ's death was Specifically for the elect, those chosen by God for salvation, not for all people. Right and unconditional election, which is the one before that, is the one that. I have an issue, and that's. Calvinism teaches that God chooses who will be saved, not based on anything foreseen in those individuals, but solely on his own will and purpose.

There's scripture that backs that up, but there's also scripture that says it a different way. Again, his theory, his theology was incomplete. And with the limited atonement, it was incomplete. There is, but only one way to God. That's the limitedness of it. That's how there's only one way to God. It's for everyone. But not everyone's going to take that way. And that was how I tried to explain it. And he's like, you're not getting it. You're not understanding it. You're not. He kept telling me that, well, you're, you're not a Calvinist. I said, I never claimed to be a Calvinist. I said, I can believe in what they're saying, but what they're teaching is incomplete. You have to look at it differently.

It was just something like that. And a die hard Calvinist will.

Right.

Will argue.

Well, they will. And it's just because.

And, and that you. I think you hit the nail on the head. I think you're 100 right. On the whole, the limitedness is that like there's only one way, period. There's. There's one.

I think I explained it to you. I can go out and go to Publix so I can put an ad in the paper for Lehigh and say, whoever goes to Publix with this coupon can get a free sub on me. Now the next day when I go there, am I going to pay for every single person in Lehigh?

No.

Or am I only going to pay for those that redeem that coupon?

Right.

I'm only going to pay for. It's limited. It was there. It was available to everybody, but only a few got it. Only a few. Only a few.

Here's the real kicker of the whole thing though, is that it would be more like this. And just let me tweak it just a little bit. You prepaid for everyone in Lehigh to get that sandwich, right? And now you're gonna get your money back. I don't know how that happens with Jesus, but you're gonna get your money back for all those that didn't select it. But Jesus died and paid the.

He did. Yes, he did. Everyone, everyone has the same option as anybody.

He's already paid for those who, who say, yeah, I don't want to believe in that.

And okay, but not everyone's going to get the benefit from it.

John says that, that for all those who, who don't believe they are condemned already. So there's the condemnation for, for anybody who's listening out there. And they, they think judgment, judging each other and calling each other out is, is. Is judgy and condemning. It's not. Jesus condemned you already. If you don't believe. If you believe you're not condemned. And so actually Jesus didn't condemn you.

You condemned yourself. We condemn ourselves. He stated that you're condemned, but he still did it for you. But you're the one who's refusing to redeem what Jesus has done, right?

It's not his fault, but he was bringing to light the fact that if you don't believe, you stand in condemnation.

Now let me give you some scripture to back up.

All right, so this is. This is they're pulling from the book, Experiencing God. The workbook.

Is that what this is?

The workbook, but it floats. Romans 3:10 through 12. There is no one righteous, not even one. There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away. They have together become worthless. There is no one who does good. Not even one. Okay, so that would be in support. Scripturally, that God must call us now. Secondarily, it talks about in John 6, 44, 45, and 65. No one can come to me, Jesus, unless the Father who sent me draws them. Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father. Father has enabled him.

Only God will enable those to come to Jesus. We don't. We all aren't just going to come to him off our nearly own free will. It's not going to happen. Which is why that tulip is correct. We are totally deprived until the Holy Spirit, God opens our eyes and allows us to see who Jesus is so we can go.

Because God seeks a personal relationship.

I said Calvin's not wrong. He's incomplete. He's incomplete. No, but his. All his stuff is incomplete.

All of them are incomplete because total depravity. Their point here is that emphasizes that humans are so affected by sin that they are unable to choose God or respond to his grace on their own.

They're saying it a different way, but right. You have to be called by God. We are all totally deprived.

Well, the argument is that we're all called, then we are all called.

Okay, but. But not all of our eyes will be open and can come to Jesus.

No, but that is, that's only if we respond what, to his call. We are all called. We are all built, made in the image.

It's just like the limited atonement. We all have it. They've already done it.

But that's what I'm saying though, is.

That that's the total depravity is we are all totally deprived.

Yeah, well, kind of, yes. I mean, it says it right there.

We are totally deprived. What I'm saying, come to Jesus without.

God by the definition that again, his.

It's incomplete. You can have total depravity. It's true. So the way that they explained, the way Calvin explains it is incomplete. I understand. What other verses and stuff.

I'm asking a question. Do you believe then that you, you are unable to choose God or respond to his grace on your own?

Yes.

Okay, well, what does that mean? Because. So you don't believe that God's called all?

I believe that he calls all, much like I always said that we're all God's children. And we've had that debate before, but we're not. So if we're all his children, he calls us all. If we're not all his children, then he doesn't call us all by that standard.

We're only, we're only his children when he adopts us into the family.

So he calls us all again. Jesus says, my sheep know me and.

They know my voice.

They know my voice.

But those are the ones that have chosen him.

Those are the ones that. And that's the same thing. All that, all that God opens the eyes. He has called them all. He has called them all, not meaning all population, because not all population is going to come. Come to know.

Right, but I'm saying that a calling, the calling can be on someone's life and they can choose to ignore it.

Yes, right. But that still doesn't mean that they were at that point. At that point you're at that point your eyes are open and you're choosing to rebel against God anyways, like Satan did another way, like Satan did, but slightly lesser extent.

Still on the argument of, well, yeah, he knows more about, but he's a little more formed.

All that are the. All that are called are those that he has called. Not every last port of creation is called to come to Jesus.

I see now I, I don't agree with that. I do not agree that not all have been called to him. Now, I think that all are given the opportunity, which is the calling, right, to respond to the calling.

Okay.

And that Jesus died for all, which means that all will get the opportunity to choose one way or the other.

So.

So, because if not, there's no. There's no justice.

So. So then there's no depravity.

No, no, we. We are depraved. We are 100% depraved. But we still get a choice. We can still be called and be completely lost in ourselves.

Okay?

That goes along with the whole. It's not complete. I can get on board with the fact that we are all so affected by sin that we can't have Jesus without calling. Right. I can get on board with that. But I'm saying that I believe he. If. If there isn't a call in the person's life right now, there will be before they die.

Okay, so you're saying 100 of everybody.

Will be called at some point in some way.

Okay.

That is justified by God. See, that's the thing.

I don't know.

I think there's a knowledge that we don't understand.

I think we're missing the call and it'll be made known to them, but they're still not called. So everyone will have. Yes, every last person will have an opportunity to hear of Jesus. Now, until the Holy Spirit opens their eyes, they can't come to them.

I think the saying, yes, once, once. Once it's presented to them is the opening of the eyes. That is when you are receiving really eyes open.

I don't think it happens simultaneously. I think you give your life to God. Doesn't mean the Holy Spirit descends on you at that moment.

I see disciples, the Holy Spirit decides on you. The more you engage with God, the more you engage in.

The Holy Spirit resides in you and gives you life.

But it doesn't come and go. No, it's the difference between Old Testament and New Testament with the Holy Spirit is that the Holy Spirit descended on people in the Old Testament and left them for a purpose.

And that's why I don't. I don't think every last person going to be called, every last person will hear and have an opportunity.

I think the definitions, we're just. We're using the terms and different ways because I can agree with you. I think that that is the call. I think that the hearing of the Word, however it is presented, whether that's in a country in which has never heard of Jesus, they're presented it in whatever way that God has chosen to present himself. Right. Because God is just. He has to be perfectly justified in.

Sending, which means that he has a path for 100% of humanity to go to heaven.

Right.

Okay. That's why we said we're all his children. Because. But I'm saying that statement, but not all that statement. He wants us all home.

He does. He wants us all home. But he's not.

But he knows we're not all going to come home. That's why we're not all his children until he.

But he has. But he has to give you the opportunity.

You have to accept, in order to become one of his children, you have to accept the adoption. You have to sign on to that. So you're not one of his children until you sign on. Right. Until you accept him. Right. And then. And then you're one of his children. That's what I'm saying. That's. That's my argument.

Okay, I can accept. I can accept that on his face. Tell me the next step.

The next step of what? What part?

Okay. When, when and where does the Holy Spirit come involved?

I believe that the Holy Spirit comes and becomes involved whenever you accept who Jesus is and make him Lord your life.

Right.

Like that's. That's it right there. Boom.

Okay, well, how does that stand within? Was it Acts 2?

Well, Acts 2. The Holy Spirit was new to this whole thing.

Right?

Right. He was being given.

Well, he was. He wasn't new to the whole thing.

No, no, no. New to the whole Christianity thing.

Right.

He was new to just coming and being around.

Well, it was a concept that they never embraced and listened to what God was saying from the beginning.

But even in the beginning, the Holy Spirit wasn't there for everybody. Old Testament. He was not there for everyone. He was there for those that God sent him to.

I agree.

That's the difference of. That's why the veil was torn. Right. It's because it went from this place in which the Holy Spirit, God resided there for them.

But again, now he's open Jews. It was the Israelites job to present God, to present the Holy Spirit to those that they came in contact with. And they refused and kept him for himself, which was their whole problem.

From the God, not the Holy Spirit.

But, but, but we can't separate them because they're there even from the beginning when Genesis was written. But it didn't come our images.

That's my. That's.

That's what I'm saying. But he could have.

It's just only when God Decided it. That's. That's the way old test the whole Testament.

God uses us to do his stuff. And it reads that way because the Israelites never presented it that way. They never got the concept. Look, they never got the concept of Jesus either. It doesn't mean Jesus didn't exist and he wasn't there. They were painted the picture the whole time.

See. But Jesus says that he's going to send the Holy Spirit to them to where he's going to be residing with them. Which is something that I think been a normal thing.

I still think that that was more of a raid because at that time he was talking to the 12 and I think that that was talking more than 12, but he was talking to those that were already following him and he was letting them know that I'm leaving but you're not going to be alone. Because is their whole concept of this.

I must leave. So the Holy Spirit will come.

I must leave. But on him leaving they were still going to. I think it was more of a. An encouragement and a reimbursement let them know that I'm, I'm leaving. I gotta go. It says if I don't go, you're never going to get this help. The.

They're not unless I leave. The Holy Spirit cannot.

But he was still there. I just, they just missed the concept. I don't think he was. It was a new thing. It was just. They never did what they were supposed to from the beginning.

I'm not saying the Holy Spirit's new. I'm saying the fact that all who believe and have the Holy Spirit is a new thing. That is new.

Well, it's a new thing because those.

Who receive them know it.

I think they do.

Okay, so if you're questioning as a Christian whether or not you have the Holy Spirit.

Yes.

Okay. And whatever.

Because you're not tapping into it doesn't.

Well, what evidence could you give that person though, so they could seek it? And we go through spiritual gifts, class and stuff like that. Obviously. I mean, I mean you must call upon these things now in experiencing God. It talks about how you'll know because God wants a personal and practical relationship with you. And once you have that relationship with him, he'll show you where he's working. If you're watching, if you're looking, observing.

Praying, if you're spending time in his word, if you're spending your time with other Christian believers, the whole you will.

Know and asking probing questions to those you would meet.

We wouldn't have to ask, oh Is this what God's calling me to do? We only ask that because we don't have that intimate relationship with God like we're supposed to ask.

And what, what, what bothers me as a believer is, look, God shows me his presence in my life all the time, and he invites me to work with him all the time. And we're missing. I, well, when I'm diligent, I see it, I respond, yes, but I don't understand the Holy Spirit. I understand he resides in me. I understand it is through the Holy Spirit that I have God with me. And the gifts that God pursues are through that Holy Spirit. But I don't understand how to know that the Holy Spirit.

So one way that I have the gifts. So I would say you would. I would say, you know, you have the gifts. So, so going through this book, we also know that God never calls us to do what we're already strong at doing.

Correct? He makes change direction.

He makes us change direction. There's always a crisis of belief at that point. When he talks to you and calls you to do something as a crisis of belief, that's the holy. When you follow that crisis of belief, I think that's evidence that the Holy Spirit is in you. He's giving you that strength. He's giving you that, that understanding. He's giving you that encouragement. He's giving you everything it takes for you to make that next step. That's how I think we know that the Holy Spirit is with us, the Holy Spirit isn't with us. Then we start asking, well, is this really what I need to do? Do I really need to step out of this? You know, we start asking God these questions that we shouldn't be asking, but.

Actually, believe it or not, I think that's part of where this goes. I think it's the Holy Spirit in us that has us asking the Lord questions. Because through that we get a deeper understanding of God's will.

But it's not the questions on whether this is what God's calling me to do. It's the questions on, okay, God, what is my next step I will take. I'm going to my. I'm going this way now. What's. What's next for me? And that, that's, that's proof of the Holy Spirit that we're heading in the direction that God wants us to go, even though he hasn't given us a roadmap. It's when we. Asking for the roadmap is when the Holy Spirit isn't with you. See, What? I mean, yeah, when we're wanting everything laid out. God. Okay, okay, I know God called me to do this, but I need this, this, this, this in place before I can take my next step. That's not how God works. That's not how the Holy Spirit works. God says, I want you to end up here and you start moving. And the Holy Spirit tells you, here's your next step. Here's your next step.

So just because we're not. We're not interacting with the Holy Spirit doesn't mean, mean we don't have the Holy Spirit, right?

It just means that we're not following the. I look at. Look, this is, this is it. This is a downplay, but I look at. I look at the Holy Spirit like Jiminy Cricket, okay? To. To Pinocchio, for goodness sake. Pinocchio know what he was told what he needed to do, and Jiminy Cricket was trying to keep him on that path, and he kept going against it.

That is an aspect of the Holy Spirit, right?

Yes, it's an aspect of the Holy Spirit.

Let me read. I'm gonna read a little bit of scripture here. Okay? Ephesians 1.

Right.

We're gonna start in verse 3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love. He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us in all wisdom and insight, making known to us the mystery of his will according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time to unite all things to him, things in heaven and things on earth. Here's where it starts again. In him we have obtained an inheritance having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory in Him. You also, when you heard the Word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. So right there it says in him, you also. So everybody, right? Not just the 12, right? When you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation and believed in him were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it to the praise of his glory.

Okay, so that's solid.

That's in Ephesians, right?

Yeah, Ephesians 1. I mean, that's.

That wasn't to the 12 at all. No, but that was Paul writing to the church.

Paul's talking.

Yeah, yeah.

Paul's talking about, you know, know, there's.

Well, he's trying to let these people know that.

That it's not just. Not just to the. Those of us who were there.

Right.

It's. It's to anyone.

Right. And this. This goes back to my whole point where that's where the Jews got it wrong from the git. Yeah. It was always supposed to be for everybody and not just for them. God sent them to these places. God sent them to these places not just to conquer, but in the conquering, share God's love, show them who God is. And they refused and they kept God to himself.

So we're talking about two things. I agree.

I'm just saying that this. This is Paul taking the whole Israelite aspect and just flipping it upside his head, upside down and saying this is what we're supposed to be doing.

Right.

And.

But this is. He is making the point here that in him that we're not. Because he was talking about to the first. So that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. All right? We who were first.

That's what he was hoping.

And he said in him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation and believed in him. Boom. That's the boom statement. There you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it to the praise of his glory.

Look, the Holy Spirit comes upon you when you believe and you accept Jesus because, okay, Jesus is gone. So part of that is the belief aspect, that faith, once you accept Christ, the Holy Spirit now comes on and helps you live that life. That's what his role is. Now, if the Holy Spirit's active in your life, you'll know it by the growth you're having. The more intimate you're becoming with God, the more you're jumping out on faith, faith. And I'm not just saying blind faith, but the more you're making these steps when God calls you to do something and you just go, he's calling out.

To you, regardless of whether you're wanting it or not. It's whether or not you listen, whether or not you follow on it more often. Right. Like, that's the thing. Yeah, right. I just to be. To be clear, it's. It's. You have the Holy Spirit if you're a believer. And that, that Holy Spirit is your seal. Right. That is the seal that has been placed upon you, but that is your assurance.

Make you move.

That is your assurance of salvation, however. Right.

He won't make.

He won't make you move. But he's always saying, okay, this is what God's will is for you.

Right? Yeah.

And he has the power within you.

To move, and he gives you that power. If you start moving, sometimes he will nudge you. And then when you start moving, he gives you that strength. He gives you the ability, and he. He allows you to move on.

That's why some days your counselor, he says, go that way and points a direction and tells us, go that way, just like he did to Abraham. And sometimes he knocks us off our horse. Right. And says, this is the place in which I want you to go, and gives a specific, detailed instructions of what you are to do. Sometimes it's different to each person. It's all about us listening.

Right.

And starting to interact. That grows that. Like you were saying, I'm just trying to be a little bit more for everybody that's listening and all the, the chaos that is. Is happening here that I, I think we're all in agreement on that. So, like, I'm just saying just to be a little more clear to the.

He's trying to bring clarity to chaos. I don't understand it.

I. I'm. I'm trying to be clear to the list.

He's trying to get us out of the rabbit hole and it's not going to happen.

No, no.

I just want to.

I want, I want to clarify what we're saying, because I think we're all in agreement here and I think we're all running down the same.

But then let me ask you to restate the question earlier then. Do you think you can go to God unless he calls you?

I think I'll have been called.

You're saying that all have been called?

Yes. Or are going to be called. Like that's like clarifying statement. Maybe not.

Not all have been called, but all will hear. All will hear the calling, but not. Not all have.

All have heard the calling or will hear the calling. Right.

All will hear the good news. It doesn't say the calling. All will hear the good news.

Let me go back because I think it does say even in this that's.

Why I want to visit it.

I mean, I could be. I could, I could have the way I got it is we're all going to get a chance to hear it.

Yep.

Our callings are our individual. Our callings are to help fulfill, fulfill God's purpose, which already has laid out. He already has laid out.

I mean, Jesus Christ has, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love. He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ according to the promise of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace with which he has blessed us in the beloved. So, okay, so that, that's saying he's called us all. He's predestined all of us for that calling, for that adoption. But, but he's not going to force us into it. Right. And so that is when, so that's when the Holy Spirit comes upon us, is whenever we decide.

So, so let me, let, let me, let me take this a little further.

Okay.

He's so Paul's talking to the church in Ephesus that's already been established, right? There's already believers. They've already accepted that call. He's not talking to everybody. He's talking to people that are already there, have already heard him once or her, Timothy, whoever. Has already so when he says to all, he's talking to the church right there. He's not talking, talking to every single person out there.

Right?

He's talking so again, you all have heard. It's already there. So what he's saying is to the people that have already been called right there, he's not talking to the people outside that haven't.

But they're having confusion, right. Or else this wouldn't be.

They're having confusion inside the church, inside a church of believers who are already.

They'Re arguing about their dogma.

They're arguing about their dogma. They're not talking about the people who aren't Christians or haven't heard the call.

He's so but I think Paul here.

Is I don't think he's explaining to the church about them.

Everybody's been called because he's like, all of us have been called. We've all we were. He wants us all. He wants us all.

I think he God wants us all. Yes, but not all are going to be called.

I don't agree. I think we've all, we're all going.

To have a chance to hear, but not everyone who hears are going to.

I think the calling is the fact that he won't wants us.

See, I don't. I, I don't.

It's our choice whether I think things.

I think the call goes a little different.

What supports your position scripturally.

Offhand, I can't pull it off.

Well, pull it up on your phone, look for it. That's what I've been doing.

It's one of those things where it's like, I understand both your points.

No, yeah, yeah.

And, and it may seem semantic called versus. We all have the opportunity. It goes back to the old, the old argument about does the guy who's Swahili in the middle of the African Savannah, does he hear God's call now? Does he hear God's call like a Christian hears God's call? No, but he would have to hear Jesus in that message for our gospel.

God is going to speak. God's going to call to him. How he under. How he can understand God. I got that. I'm not gonna be. I mean, I could go, that's. We can go down. That's the speaking in tongues. I can go there and talk to this guy. He totally understand everything I'm saying and accept Christ. Boom. But I never spoke a word of Swahili. But that, that's tongues. Because God allowed him to hear what I was saying. So.

And by the way, just to throw another wrench into the fire here, I think in all fairness, I think the gospel tells us speaking in tongues and other gifts of the spirit are real.

Yeah.

Whether or not I've experienced them firsthand or, or observed people experiencing firsthand, it's not for me to judge their faith. And I'm not gonna, I'm not going to call somebody's faith into question on that. I will tell you this. I find it difficult as it is preceding presented in different faiths to buy into the spiritual gifts as they have been presented. Yes.

The way people, and I think people do that to, to either it's virtue signaling and for themselves either believe why they were babbling something that nobody couldn't understand.

Well, I think, I think we are conditioned from time we're babies to response to stimulus. And I believe that somebody has been raised in a charismatic church, believes that their salvation is in question until they display those gifts.

And that's wrong. That's just wrong teaching.

Well, but. And again, this is total speculation. Okay. But I've been in those churches and I've had first hand experiences with them. And I believe that they are raised to believe that their faith, that that is a fundamental need for their salvation, that they are conditioned to seek it. And as a result, they mirror the behavior they see of the elders and the leaders that they follow. And when somebody starts going that they do not question it because who are you to question their father faith, but.

They question themselves because.

Right.

They don't understand it.

They see that as a model. They see that as a model and that their gift is tongues, not interpretation. And therefore they are waiting for an.

Interpreter to arrive so that then we.

Know how they're nowhere.

We know nowhere do we. That I, if I'm wrong, tell me, but nowhere in the Bible do we hear tongues being displayed that way.

Which way?

I was just people blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

We do.

We do. And it's in Corinthians. That's what I was gonna bring up. Corinthians. And it's not. That was the whole point. He addressed it, right? Was First Corinthians 12 talks about the fact that, all right, y' all, you are doing that. You are doing the, the babbling of this. The, the, the tongues, right? You, you are. And it's great, it's great that you all have this gift. However, first off, you are pushing people away because they're coming in and they're getting confused, right? So you're utilizing this gift that the Holy Spirit has given you. However, you're pushing people away and that then is using it improperly. One and two, let me explain how you need to use this so that it isn't that way. And that is you are to have an interpreter. And if there is not an interpreter, then you are to disregard the, the, the prophecy or the speaker that that is coming with the.

Okay. That are. But what I'm saying is these people who think that, that they have to do that in order to be saved, it doesn't, that's not, it doesn't say that. And the one that they like to use is the one in Acts where they had the thousands there. And Paul is talking or Peter was talking. Peter was preach. Was it Peter preaching. Thing was, Peter was preaching and everyone understood it in their language. But he wasn't speaking their language, he was speaking his own. And to me, that's tongues, right? And that is the gift of tongues, that's having an interpreter. But if you're just gonna start babbling, you better have an interpreter.

So here's the thing. They were the interpreters, they were given the gift of interpretation. Those who heard.

Right. But they all got to hear it in their own language. So everybody. It wasn't given the gift. It was the. It was the mountain. It was the multitude of people that were able. And again, I don't think all 5,000 heard it. It's the ones that the Holy Spirit opened their ears and gave them that gift to understand what was being said in their language.

Right.

And that wasn't being said.

That was the gift of interpretation. And so it doesn't work that way on a regular basis.

Right. That right there is an obvious sign.

But also, they always throw back, because I don't. Everybody ends up throwing back to this whole. The day of Pentecost being the example that we should then all follow.

And it's like, okay, we have to have that.

But you gotta understand, this was the first time. This was the first time the Holy Spirit then was given to all people.

It was given to the Gentiles. It descended before they were baptized.

Not just the Gentile, but this is the first time they were gay. Right, But. But at the same time, like the. The. Even the 12, this is new to them.

Well, no, Jesus had given them the power to heal and things like that when he sent them on mission.

Sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean he gave them the Holy Spirit yet, because.

That was when they gave him the Holy Spirit. Yeah, but the Holy Spirit assigned that he was presented on them before that.

What they were able to do, I graduate. And so they were doing it in him, his name. Therefore, they had the power that was granted to them by Jesus, who said that you have the permission to do this. Now, when he left and sent the Holy Spirit, this was that. That's the Day of Pentecost. Right. That was the big deal, was that the fact that it literally descended on them. Right. And they were then able to do so. Now, it also says that the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus like a dove. So Jesus had the Holy Spirit, right, as a human, having descended on him.

Oddly enough, if you read the way it descended, it descended in human form like a dove. Now, it could be.

Descended. The Holy Spirit form, ascended in human form like a dove, meaning if it floated down or flew down upon him, it wasn't a dove. It came down like a dove.

Well, I wasn't.

Yeah, yeah, that's what it actually says. It came down like a dove. Well, most people take it literally. Oh, he came down as a.

People pictured a dove over Christ's head. When he was baptized, they said it came down in human form like a dove.

I don't remember that part. But I'm not.

Arg. Holy Spirit.

I'm not.

I'm not trying to argue against that at all.

No, no, but. But it's amazing though, some of the, some of the nuance that we miss in the scripture.

Sure.

Because you look at all these pictures of every church around. Everybody talks. It's. There's a dove descended onto Christ when he was baptized. No, he wasn't.

Well, okay. But I think that that's also a figurative thing. We don't also know what Jesus looked like. Literally. So we make up.

He looked exactly like me.

He looked exactly like you?

Exactly like. But he. Well, he had longer hair.

He did say he looked pretty rough.

And we do know that he.

He was not necessarily pleasing to the eye.

Exactly. We do know that.

You're right. He did look just like you.

We. We get this from my wife. He wasn't a pretty boy.

We could call her out here and.

Have her tell you she's much more grueling.

But Jesus wasn't a pretty boy.

Right.

And neither was David.

But Jesus also was a carpenter. Right. So like.

Right.

He. So my favorite description of Jesus is a big bad buff Jew. Buff people darn. Always pretty. I just want to put that.

I don't even think he was. He would. So he would have had to have.

Some muscle coming because he's a carpenter.

Yeah, but he was wiry. He walked everywhere, dude. He's like marathon run, dude.

Have you seen my legs? I walk. I walk places.

He looked more.

I don't walk around a lot and I look great.

Right.

My legs are awesome. The rest of me, I would say.

He was fit, but he wasn't like a bodybuilder. He was fit. I think he was muscular.

Obviously. I don't think he was.

He was a common looking person. Even less than common because remember, he's from Nazareth. But. But we also know that David wasn't a good looking man either because nobody would have picked him as king. Look, we know, we know. Saul was a good looking man and we know that he sit. He was the tallest man of the time. He was very tall. Yeah.

Five, six.

No, he was taller than that was actually five.

One was the average. The average Jew back then.

Yeah. But he was head and shoulder. So he was a whole.

Okay, so he was probably.

He was closer to six foot. He was closer to six foot. He was closer to six foot. But he was very tall for everybody. He was the tallest Jew at the time.

I'm just giving some. Some insight to them because most people don't realize that the Jewish people, the Israelites were really short. They were shorter than me on average. So.

All right, so where are we going?

I'm just enjoying. I want to. I want to hear more because I. I look at. I look at speaking in tongues, the way it is portrayed in churches today as a virtuous signal.

That's all that people.

A lot of times, I agree.

I. I feel so.

I think it's used properly at times.

But I like my son's. I like my son's church, but he's one of his preachers, one of the ones that say, you haven't experienced the Holy Spirit until you can speak in tongues. And it's like, that's not true. Because there's other gifts that the Holy Spirit gives and you don't have to.

Look, not all gifts are for all people, but all gifts can be given.

To all people exactly as needed as they are needed. Yep.

So then, with this kind of knowledge, leaders in the church, what is our responsibility?

To lead them accordingly.

Okay.

To teach them about these things, to show them the rules that have been laid out and the truth about what the Holy Spirit is and what he can and can't do, which the cant is not really so a thing. But.

After just going through this book so far, we're only in unit 5.

You'll love this book.

I have. I have. You're assuming I'm going to read this book. You can tell me I'm wrong. He ain't going to read it. You'll have to get.

Actually, that one I might read again. I've already read that book. I've not done the book study.

I think it would be fun. Yeah. I think we as the church have done a disservice for all these years.

Okay.

We. We offer all these things. We offer all these spiritual gift cards, classes. We offer spiritual gift classes. We try to teach them discipleship, and we do all this stuff. Missing the key role. If all these Bible studies and all these things you teach them is not helping them cultivate a relationship, then we're just giving them tools that they have no idea how to use. The first look, it's revolutionized my thought on discipleship. Discipleship has failed because we're teaching them all these tools, but we're not teaching them why, how these tools get developed, and that is a personal, intimate relationship with God. And that has to come first. I can tell you why you need to study your Bible. I can tell you why you need to memorize verses. I can even tell you how to pray. Good. If it is not leading you to an intimate relationship that you are cultivating on a daily aspect, then it's doing you nothing.

But we're. We're in full agreement on that. But let me ask you a question for listeners out there. Why do you read the Bible?

Because I get to.

Okay, well.

Well, okay. For me, I read the Bible for one. It is how God is one way that God communicates to me through his Word. The more I read it, the more I dig into it, the more. The more I study it. Not just read what's on. Not just read the text, but read where he's going with the text, what he meant to say, and learning. All that is getting me closer. And it's. It's given me a longing to spend more time with him, whether in the Bible, in a devotional book that is taking me deeper, or in my prayer life. So I read the Bible. At first it was, well, I have to. And I want to just know history. And now it's because I'm getting to learn more of what God is wanting of me. I'm getting to learn more of God.

Okay, why do you pray?

Because now I get to talk to God. It is my way to talk back to God in response to what he just said to me. I look at prayer as my only form of communication other than obedience. But my form of communicating to God is prayer. Yeah. God knows. God already knows what I'm thinking. He knows my hurts. He knows my pain. But you're not intimate just because somebody knows that you intimate when you spend time and talk with the person.

I feel like the prayer is your response to God. Okay.

I mean, that's what he said.

That's basically what I said. It's just me getting to. I pray because it's my time that I can verbally spin with God.

I mean, I'm with you.

I just get to. I mean, it's hard to explain. It's like my wife. Yeah. We've been married for almost 30 years. We can sit there and not say a word and just about know what each other's thinking. But it doesn't make a football game or hockey game now. But that doesn't make us intimate. It makes us intimate when, even though she knows I speak, Hey, I love you. I know you know it, but I love you. Hey. The verbal conversation takes it a step further than just knowing.

But I would throw you I'd throw you a curveball on it that I think you're on the right track. Even when you say just spending time together, that those common experiences draw you together. And that, I think is as much important as for prayer with God as anything is. It's spending time together.

Right.

And sometimes the prayer is to hear God, where are you? What do you want from me? And others, it's just thanks and worship.

Well, and those are all forms of communication, right? Right? Yes, Sometimes. Sometimes it's not just prayer. I will use my word worship. I will use singing. I will use his own word and just say it back to him.

All right, let me hear your singing.

No, because you won't like it. God doesn't care.

God may want.

God doesn't care. God doesn't care. Because God's not hearing my voice. He's hearing my heart. He hears the voice of my heart.

I'm gonna use that excuse.

Look, look. But this past week has been good because I have turned off the podcast.

Okay.

At the beginning of it. So.

Except for the truth response to it every single time. No, I'm just kidding.

I wish I could say that's true. Sorry. There is one I listen to every Monday because I just like to have one Sunday I get to hear Nick, and then on Monday, I get to hear this other pastor I like to listen to. And then usually I fill it with pasteurized by Tuesday. Usually when I'm driving, I feel it with a bunch of other podcasts. But unit four in this book focused on worship and take some time to worship. So I turned off every podcast, and I made a point to put on worship music songs that I know when I'm driving. Yeah, I'm pouring it out to the point that I'm even crying. But it's not tears of sadness. It's tears that I just get to tell you right now how my heart.

I'm with you.

And so this week has just been full of just worship.

Amen.

I mean, I've cut off any secular music. Not saying you can't use that for worship, but I've turned it all off, and everything has been focused. When I could walk around at work and do little side jobs, I've put my headphones on, and I just. It's just to the point that I'm pretty sure some of my guys are looking at me because I'm singing as loud as I can on top of one of the tanks out there where I'm painting. Yeah, I'm just singing. I don't care. Who's listening? But it's just been good to take that part of my prayer and put it out. It's been. It's been good to write my prayer out. Even as simple as they can be sometimes. I'm taking. I'm no longer relying on other people's prayers. I'm taking just the simplest words because that's all God wants.

Spin them into a prayer.

He just wants me. And even if it's not. Even if it's based around that scripture, but it's just some simple words. Guide me through this today. I mean, that's all it takes. And it's.

I mean, my classic has become. Show me where you are. Show me where you're working. Let me know.

It's just been. It's just been phenomenal.

I mean, it's cool to worship through music.

It really is.

It's a whole nother. It's a whole nother level of communication, and it generally draws an emotional response. I mean, because whenever you're connecting in that way, it's. It's deep, right? It's a deep way.

But. Yeah, but to his question, I pray because it's my response and it's my it. And it's my way to pour. I like to challenge, and it pours my heart out. Yeah. God knows my heart, but I still. He wants to hear it. He. It's more intimate. Yeah. My wife knows me, but it's more intimate when we can talk and she can really feel. She can really hear the feeling that I'm having. She may be able to see it, but I can go a little deeper with the words than her. Just. I mean, yes, sitting there together is good, but sometimes we need that communication. It takes us a little deeper. It takes. And that's why I pray. It's just my response. And just. I get a chance to talk to the creator of the universe. He wants to hear me, so why would I not do it?

Right. Hey, yeah, that's great.

And worships the same way. He wants to hear it. Even though I sound like a dog dying or whatever, he still wants to hear it to him. It's beautiful, right?

May the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart be pleasing to you. That's why on Sunday mornings, I always pray. Just a little prayer of God, change whatever I'm doing on the stage musically to be something pleasing to your ear, a sweet aroma to your nostrils, which is scriptural as well. I'd like to. I like to throw out a challenge to people. Does God re Require us to read Scripture?

Yes.

Where in scripture does it say that? I don't reason why I'm going this.

Way, but I like the question.

That's a good question. So.

And I mean all, all believers.

Not. Not.

I'll get more specific here.

Whether it says it in scripture or not is his way. He has. He's not coming to us any. Anymore that I know of. Through a burning bush. He's not. Right. I mean, he has unique. He has unique ways of coming to us without reading scripture. It would be a lot harder for me to see those ways when God's coming to me.

I can agree with.

So Scripture is one of the ways. Spending time in God's words is one of the ways we know he's talking to us.

Okay, all believer, answer the reason I'm throwing this out there as all believers because I have. I have some qualifications for a few things down the, down the road here in a minute. But I want to make, make it known that I'm saying to all, all believers. Do you think that he's. It's a requirement to read scripture by all believers?

No, I don't think it's a requirement. But why would you not want to?

That's a different. That's a different question.

Why would you not want to?

If you have it, why would you not want to?

Okay. Is it required? No. Can God talk to you without scripture? Yes, but he. He personally. So, so here's fired people to put this together.

As far as I understand. I agree you're right on all of that. Right. I see where you're going with all that, and I agree with that. The reason I'm bringing it up is because as far as I understand it, scripture doesn't say we have to read Scripture. However, it does say to meditate on his word.

Right, Right.

Meditating meaning not necessarily reading, but knowing what. Knowing what is saying not. The reason I ring that up is because a lot of people will die on the hill of well, if you're not reading your Bible, okay, Except for there's people who literally can't read. Let's throw that out there.

There's people.

Except for God said, no, he said, who do you say that I am? You are the Christ. You're the Messiah. Well, upon that rock I build my church is on the foundation of that faith. You are my savior, period. There's no you're my savior, but you have to read the Bible. No, you're my savior, but you have to go to community. But you have to be baptized. But you have to.

There's no but.

Right. It's.

Sure. I'm just saying there's a lot.

Your savior.

There's a lot of people that die on that hill. And the reason why I want to bring it up is because there's. There's places out there where, like the underground church, which is a lot. There's a whole lot more Christians who are hiding from authority figures then there are Christians that are free to worship. Okay. We know this just statistically speaking, from knowing the underground churches throughout the world. Right. So it's kind of wild to think last. Last time we did the underground church at Sunday at church, one of the crazy things that I learned in the midst of working through that was that There was some 320 million people in the world that were a part of the underground church who are literally having to hide, not their faith, but hide from authority figures to be able to worship and meet together and what they're doing. Which means that there's a whole lot more than even in this country. Right. That. That are relying on him who may not have but a little bitty piece, if anything, physically even might have a verse and maybe have a first. Right? So here's. Here's. What I'm saying is for those who are, like, strict, and I'm not saying any of us in here feel that way. Anybody who's on that strict path of like, yo, you know, you have to be reading scripture every day. I'm gonna say it's. It is incumbent upon you, if you have the access to it, to study what you can when. When you're called to do so. Because you can't know it. You can't hide it in your heart unless you know it.

Right.

Like, unless you.

You either have to be told it. You have to be told it, or it has to be known to you.

Has to be in your head.

Right. And what you know and you are called to dwell upon.

Yes.

That is something you're called to do. Scripture does tell us that we are to meditate. Right. So. On his words. So that doesn't necessarily mean that it's meditating on Scripture, though. I mean, yes, scripture is something we should meditate on. However, like, God does talk to us outside of scripture.

Yeah.

I 100% believe that there are people in the Middle east right now who are having dreams and visions of Jesus coming to them, and they're leaving all that they've been raised around at the detriment of their life and sacrificing themselves and their family to. To Come to Jesus through from a dream. Right. So there is that aspect of it. So I'm not saying we shouldn't. In fact, those of us who are blessed enough to have access to 50 billion Bibles and studies, like it's incumbent upon us.

If you're not doing it, I'm gonna ask you why.

To know it. Right.

If you have, if you have the capability, why aren't you.

You also shouldn't necessarily feel hard on yourself if you're not reading the Bible every single day. And I feel like that's where the church has kind of failed us. Is that, Is that one of the ways I think the church, Big C, has failed, Failed us in recent years is that they have this emphasis that if you're not reading every day, you're less than, or you're missing out on something. Hold on. Like, I could have read this little chunk and now I gotta meditate on it for a few days or weeks or months to be able to like, really truly, like, grasp what this is actually saying to me.

No, I, I, So I'm not, I'm not arguing against. No, no, no, I know. And I'm not arguing against you. So to go back and no, we're not required to read the Scripture, but you gotta have a way to be getting God's Word. And however that. Right, right. However that may be, that's fine. And whenever you have an opportunity, you get into it, because then it will.

By the way, did I use the word incumbent correctly?

Yeah, absolutely. You did.

That's right.

So all you out there, because. Yeah, there are, there are millions of people out there that don't. They don't have the Word, and I totally agree. But it's given to them and not the Word. But God, his words are being given to them in some way or the other.

Scripture is not his only.

Sorry, we are to meditate on that? Yes, we are required to meditate on his Word, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to come from the written Bible that we have.

Now, the written Bible that we have is complete and is the thing in which all things that we hear from God should be tested against.

Right.

So if there's things that are outside of scripture that coincide with and that line up with Scripture, then cool. God speaking to you.

It's God speaking to you.

But if it doesn't, then it's not. And I want to throw that out there too. I think that's an important thing that we have to put in play when, when we're talking to people about it. And that's why it's also important for us to read and know what it says. So that whenever the wolves come. Right. The wolves in sheep's clothing, which come more often than we like to believe, we can be like, whoa, whoa, whoa. That goes against scripture. I know. Because it's written on my heart. Right, right. So. And that's why, like, I used to. I used to be able to memorize scripture really well. I used to do that and focus on it. I do that a little less now. And by a little less, I mean I rarely actually memorize scripture, which I think is one of those things that it takes time as we get older.

But I'm gonna go with Dan as.

Well, I don't think.

But I think that's. Mine doesn't. So I think memorizing scripture important, but I think it's an old thing where the Bible was not as prevalent as it is now. We have. Every one of us have it.

Why do you think you memorize scripture?

So every one of us has it in our hands. But scripture memory was so important with. Because it was so few. So what you were able to remember was important for when you wanted. For when you needed to present the gospel to people.

I'm going. I'm going to challenge you and how necessary it is because like a smartphone where we have speed dial, we've all lost our phone numbers. We don't know how to call somebody. Now, if you stop memorizing scripture, you will become ignorant to the scripture.

And I'm not saying to stop memorizing it. I'm just saying, though.

But therefore, it would be of paramount importance. It would not be of lesser importance.

I'm saying it's.

Okay. So here's. Here's something just. Just to bring down that trail for a moment.

The same. The same reason why we're not required to read it all the time is this. Look, when we need it. These are.

These aren't rules.

When we need it. I do believe that the Holy Spirit will give. Give us the words that we need to say at the time.

Not if you haven't put the discipline into learning those words.

That's the whole armor and being ready.

No, I got that. But what I'm saying is. Okay, like Derek, he has a hard time. I have a hard time. Remember, I can. Sure, I can. Look, we talked about this a couple times ago. Yeah, I can remember. I can remember it the following week when we need to go over it. But I'm not using that Scripture every single day for it to be prevalent in my mind. So if I want to remember the whole Bible, I have to write the whole Bible down every single day in order for me to remember it.

I would say pieces.

Exactly. I don't have a hard time remembering pieces, but that's what verses are. But for a certain verse, at some times it's just hard for me to bring it to my mind.

Carla. Corn. Okay, so Carla, whenever she has something she wants to say, she does this. And so I started calling Picard porn. It's one of those, like, hey, I got something to say and I don't want to forget it.

No, no, no, that's fine.

So, all right. So the way that you are taking memorization is word for word. And I don't think that that's necessary either, although it's helpful. It's very helpful.

But that's how I am challenged conceptually. That's how I'm challenged.

What do you mean?

When I come to people. Oh, you didn't say that. Right. It's actually.

This is.

This is okay. But I mean, five versions of the.

Bible, they can't hold you to the syntax of it.

Right? So. So here's the thing. Having how, how else, how else other than memorizing, at the very minimum, concepts and understanding what the scripture is saying, memorizing that. How else do you. Do you hide His Word in our heart? Right? Like, how else do you do that? That is what that is.

Through corporate sessions at church.

But that is still.

Right. Through Bible study. Right.

Look, that's all a part of the.

How you learn it.

It's just. It's not necessarily the word for word, which I think is where you're going with it is the. Okay, so I don't know that. I mean, everybody here probably knows the scripture, but John 3:16, you know, God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Right. I've got that memorized word for word, kind of, because that's like a mixture of Niv and King James, but probably.

A little M, I, L, I V.

The B, I, B L E and the other ways. So. But the concept being hidden in my heart allows me the understanding the Holy Spirit has given me because it says that without the Holy Spirit, like, we, there's knowledge that gets unlocked with the Holy Spirit, right. From Scripture. So it's pretty fascinating once you start thinking about that concept.

I mean, I'm just. I'M just saying I'm having a hard time just trying to remember with everything that I'm reading and taking in in one day study. Let's just say I go through one of these days. There's so many scriptures. It bombards us with trying to remember what Psalms 27 was. Okay, that one I can actually remember. But trying to remember some of the other ones, it's like, I can't remember this. And at this point, I don't know why I'm gonna need it, but I know it. And I'm pretty sure that when I need it, the Spirit will bring it back into my mind as recognition.

Okay.

If I accept that on his face. So it's not point of argument. Let me suggest to you, part of the way you do memorize and hold it is using it during the course of the week that you've studied it. Okay? I am. I am the vine, you are the branches. He remains in me, and I, and him will bear great fruit.

Right?

Nothing without me. Use that during the course of that week and it becomes more solidified. And so as a practical tool of memorization, writing helps you memorize, helps you retain 94% better. So there are practices that we use to do these things. I would tell you the reason to memorize Scripture is so that you don't misquote God, right? No, because we lose nuance in this thing when we're reading it directly. So when we're memorizing, if we miss a word or two, we could change the whole meaning of the thing.

But which is why I think it's more important to memorize the concepts.

Right. Well, that's why there are two types of Bibles out there. They're literal, and there are.

Then there's contextual, which, ironically, I prefer the one that's. But.

But I will tell you this, though. I look at memorizing the Bible as the tool that we have that we can do now for when we are persecuted. Because it says we will be persecuted for our faith. When we cannot use our Bible, we will have those words.

Yes.

And faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. And that is our requirement.

And Jesus. Jesus argued against Satan with Scripture, right? He said, you know, man doesn't live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord, like it is our lifeblood. But it doesn't necessarily mean that Scripture, although Scripture is. And he uses Scripture throughout all of that debate with Satan, that I think that there's other things that God has led us to that, that we can also use.

Well, these are all study guides that God has made available to us. And we are so blessed that we have them. And to not use them, I think would be a criminal sin. It really would be.

I would also. Let me, let me interject real quick because I think that if, if you're having a hard time and this is anybody. I'm not picking on John because I would have to do this as well. I get, I would argue, like, if you're having a hard time trying to keep all of what you're, what you're studying in and retaining it, slow down. What's the, what's the rush? What's the race? And I think a lot of times we, we get a study like that and we're like, oh, well, let's, you know, we've got. It says this day and this day and this day or this week, we're doing this like, okay, but if we need to slow down so that we can actually consume it better, then that's what we should do. And also pray it back to God because that will instill it in your well.

And, and so that's, oddly enough, this.

Teaches you how to pray it back to God.

But that's, it's very cool. Yeah, but it doesn't necessarily. So that's. I think what's hard is some of the memory in this, the memory verses in here. Don't. Don't say nothing to me. Like the, like some of the scripture that. So, like in here, they're not telling you take your memory verse and pray it back. They're telling you, what did God say to you the most that day? That's what I'm writing out. Right.

Let me ask you to shift a little bit of what you're trying to get out of it. What can you get out of this? As the teacher, if the message on those scriptures are not for you per se, there for you to share, you are a tool for God to use.

For me, the memory, some of the memory. So the first few memory verses, I understand where they were coming from.

Right. Okay. He says, you who have and obey my commandments, you love me and therefore you love the Father also. And I will love you and I will show myself to you. Those are all relevant.

Let me, let me throw something else out there too.

But there's other ones that are just.

Love your God, your Father.

I am going to change all your.

Mind, all your soul.

I'm not going to pick anything out of the lesson. I'm just going to Every five days. The memory verse is going to be what I pray back to God.

Well, I just keep stacking them.

My, my. That was going to be my thing. Was like, okay, so what if the fact those aren't speaking to you is you haven't spent enough time with it yet? And sometimes there's some things that God puts in front of me that's like, this is like, not something I need right now. Until I've, like, dove into it a bunch and like, why are you saying this to me? And then it gets revealed. Because I spent time with it and I. That's just.

No, no, I know what. I know what you're saying. It's just the memory versus itself. I would rather memorize some of the other scriptures that are throughout the text. Sure. Than the actual memory verse that I'm supposed to quote back when we meet together.

But maybe there's.

Because it's like this one, I would. I mean, this one is just really. I understand what God is saying. This whole chapter with this verse and not with the other one. I. I mean, there's a reason why they've been relevant. Don't get me wrong. They've been relevant to the main topic. But as you go each day, all five days, there's other ones that. Oh, this is. This is. This is speaking so much more to me than the memory. I know what the memory verse said. I got you. I understand that. But this one is speaking so much more.

But that's awesome, right? That's extra.

No, it is extra.

That's wonderful. You're getting more out of it than the lesson prescribed.

I mean, I'm getting. I'm getting out of it. What I. What I think, what God wants you to do, I totally understand. I mean, to the point that I've changed my whole idea of discipleship.

Well. And that's what this book did to me. It also, like I told you guys up front, it changed how I pray. It really changed. It changed my. Not my reason for prayer, but my motive for prayer.

Right. Look, I'm going back through this book again next week. I'm gonna start back on unit one. Go back through it while we're still finishing it up. So I'm gonna be going through this book twice because at least it's such a good book that I encourage my son. Hey, we need to go through this now. No longer a book in the Bible. We did that. We did. Hebrews. I don't think we need to go through Romans because you've already been through Romans 20 times my son's like, yeah, I really don't feel called. I just love the book. I said, I feel called that we need to do this. He's like, all right, let's it do do it. And he even told me, he goes, dad, I've seen the changes in you so far, because I want to go through that. I said, okay, so they'll have the books Wednesday.

Well, I'm excited about the elders going through it. I really am.

Well, that was. So I think this Sunday, one of the things I want to bring up is when we're done with the four books, we go through this with the new guys. I think this will help. This will help make a better decision. I mean, the other one's gonna lay out what our elder duties are and what. But I think this, right. This will actually hopefully help them here.

That's job description oriented, how to execute.

This is.

This is the.

Okay, God is. This is what God's telling us.

The faith piece. I was.

I'm hearing God tell her.

Should we maybe start with that next time around then?

I wouldn't mind. I think it's that.

I mean, because that's one of the things, like, look, we've been telling that we need. If everybody that goes through it is going through it. First off, to start with, hey, is. Is this something for me? They need to be starting on the same footing, right?

Well, I totally agree.

And that is the same footing.

I think that's.

And then you find out the duties, because that's. So our spiritual walk with Christ is our number one.

Yes.

Because if it's not solid, if it's not where it needs to be, everything else is not going to be where it needs to be. Right?

Right.

So we start getting that on track. We're not perfect. Nobody's perfect. Nobody. Nobody's going to be perfect. We start getting that on track in the right way, and then we find out, okay, so with this as the foundation, here are the elder duties.

Right?

Here's what the elders are actually called to. Above and beyond the. Every Christian. Right? But every Christian is. Is this experiencing God will book will explain, like, every Christian stuff, right? But then above and beyond that as elders, it's the next step as elders. This is the thing. And then by the end of that, you'll know who's. Who's still on track, who's ready. And I think. I think that'll be helpful for. For some of. Some of the guys who have gone through our stuff in the past to get more on track with Okay, I agree.

It'll. It'll give them a road map.

Look, reading this, it's just.

I mean, I read it in college. I don't remember.

So, I mean, the workbook. Hat you have to read the book and do the workbook at the same time. I mean, it's just.

I'll read the book first one of the two.

I'm reading them at the same. I'm trying to read them at the same time.

Time.

And it's. I mean, are they doing this?

Exactly.

Just about, I think I'm on chapter.

10 and it's working with chapter five.

I mean, the whole book works with each other, but so I'm. I'm doing unit five and I'm in the middle of. I'm reading chapter five, and it more goes back to chapter four.

Right.

But I mean, it's still.

Right. It flows. And the stories that they use in this are from the chapter. Chapters of the book.

And the funny thing is, I'm doing this. I may have to catch up, but I can't. Look. You can't. I told my son, I said, if you get behind, you're not doing two days. You're not doing two days in one. I said, sometimes I'm spending an hour in this book alone. At least. I said, you've got a lot out for your. I told my son and his friend, you have to. A lot out. At least 30 minutes just for the workbook.

Is it a. Is it a five day or seven?

It's five days. It's a five day thing.

That's kind of nice because like five days. Try to squeeze in a seven day. And it's like, now we do the.

Five days, then we have a weekly together session which has a video.

And I'm behind right now. I've got day four and day five. But I could. I already planned on doing. I mean, day three was just so long.

And maybe that's something you should do next semester instead of teaching the spiritual gifts class. Great.

I would do it in a moment.

All right, do it. Lizzie's gonna go through the spiritual because.

I think this thing is transformative.

It's so transformative. But I really do. That was what I wanted to talk about in the elders meeting is when we're done with these four doing this, and then the next group of guys, we do this first. Y. I love it, but we have to meet more than once a month.

Right?

We would have to. We would have to try to say, okay, this is a weekly or a bi weekly thing.

Process Is once a week.

Right.

If they're going through it, they go through it once a week.

I mean, it has to be a commitment when they first. Come on. Okay. We're gonna spend the first 12 weeks.

You know what?

Or. Or two. We'll pile up right now. I'm gonna try. I'm gonna see how it works with my son.

Because we have to be like one or two elders.

Take.

Take him through. That's not one of those. Like, we shift through elders.

No, no. This would be like.

And this is probably super boring to you guys. I'm sorry. But it's kind of happening right now.

It's all part of the R. So.

And this is kind of just for those of you who know our. Our. Our church structure, being elder. Elder led. And we're autonomous to our own church building, I guess our church. Like, for those of you who don't know it, this is just like an insight into. Into our thought process on some of how we want our elders to be trained before actually being confirmed as elders.

And how we want to support the congregation in growing their faith.

Yes.

That's our job.

Yeah.

So going back, this would be something.

That would be very good for everybody.

It would.

And it would help you discern through the completion of that who your next class might be.

Let me see it.

I do. I so do agree.

So the book is called Experiencing God. Is this Henry and Rich write the book too.

So by Henry and Richard, his son has the. The Blackabees have followed through.

Okay, so. So the Blackabees, it's.

It's.

It's Experiencing God by Henry and Richard Blackaby and Claude King.

Yep.

The revised and expanded is. I'm assuming what this.

And that's even the older version. The newer versions. I've got it right here.

It's identical.

It is identical, but just a different.

I've just been writing in that one.

Because the other one, if you want to take a step up. All right. On your.

Your personal. Cheaper to order it through their website.

Their Bible, your personal Bible. I would definitely suggest going. Going through it. It is a tried and true, true book. And just the book itself. I haven't gone through the other thing.

But I even remember it being a.

Staple in our college.

So I. I asked my discipleship group Thursday night, why. Why are we doing discipleship? What's the reason for this? Why. Why are we going through this book? Why do you want to do discipleship?

What book are you guys going through right now?

We're going through growing up.

Growing up. Okay. Which is also.

Which is good. It's a good foundation to understand how a discipleship should be laid out and.

Should work and how easy it is for anybody to leave.

Exactly. It's really good. But again, like I said before, it's only a tool. So I asked him, why are we going through this? What's your purpose? Oh, to be better, disciple, be better. This. I was like, but that's the wrong purpose. I said, anything we do, our purpose should be drawing us closer to God. It should be giving us a more intimate. It should. We should be cultivating an intimate relationship.

With God that's personal, practical.

And these are all tools that give.

The tagline for the book is knowing and doing the will of God. So for those of you who have talked about, well, what's the will of God? And all that, like, how do I know what the will of God, God is? This will, the book will definitely help.

It's going to change the way you pray.

And it's not going to tell you necessarily, probably what the will of God is in your life, but it'll show you how to get.

It'll tell you how to hear.

But let me. Let me speak to that, because you just said it exactly how it changed me. One of the first chapters in this book, it says, have you ever said the prayer, God, what is your will in my life? And the funny part for me was I had just finished praying that. Because I prayed that a lot.

Sure.

And it says, you're praying wrong. It's that blunt. You're praying wrong.

You're praying. Yeah.

And therefore you're getting the wrong answers.

I'm like, what I just prayed is what?

And it says, when you pray, it's not about you. So when you pray, God, what is your will in my life? You've already missed it. It's God, what is your will?

Right. Right.

Then how?

Show me. Show me your will so that I might participate.

I can join you in that.

Right. And I think. I think most people, you're right, it is praying wrong. But I think what they mean by that is, how do I participate?

Right.

But what is my part in this?

But if we start wrong, if we.

Start the wrong, we're gonna get the wrong answer.

So if you say, God, open my eyes to what you're doing so I might join you, it's a far different statement than God, what's your will in my life? His will is that we join him.

That's his will. Whatever you're doing, just. Just do it. I mean, so it's just totally.

And that's how it starts.

Yeah.

It's just a total. It's just a. I, I can always say it just revolutionized the way I pray in my relationship.

And for both of us to say that so emphatically is why we're just like, all over this book in the series. Series. I think to bring that to the church would be such a blessing. And I believe that God is working here and he's inviting us to do that.

Coming from me, like, this is something that I will read.

Okay.

Actually, I want.

I want to do it with you now just because. I'll buy you the book.

You got it. You buy me the book.

Dude. I'm just. I mean, the book itself.

Yeah.

Is good.

And by the way, they have this study for teens, for couples, for kids.

I'm taking my marriage through Reverend well.

Maybe that's what Lizzie and I need.

To do for couples because we. Because they actually have a series. It's older, so you can't stream the videos, but it's.

I think I have it on my.

It's. It's experiencing God for couples. And I, I want to know what it's like, because this is just. I mean, you can take couples through this, but it's like, is there something.

Different, separate, or is it the main book that's separate?

The workbook, I think. I think the workbook is the.

For the couples or the book itself.

I have to look it up because.

Like, that's something that maybe Lizzy and I could adapt what we do because we're. We're constantly looking for new stuff. We, we try to spend. We spend like 10, 15 minutes, but we, we don't spend like an in depth amount of time. But this would take things till the next level.

Black dot org.

No, that's life.

No, no, no. Go to their actual website.

Blackle.

Let me, let me get it. I just ordered it the other day.

Hopefully you guys are getting something out of this.

Well, and here's the thing. For, for the listening enjoyment of this, the one thing I would tell you is explore. You're. You're seeking the Bible. You're seeking a relationship with God. And as you do, you're going to come across things, whether it be through a movie you watched. I found this book by watching a show on Pure Flix that was experiencing God. It was his story about how he started a prison ministry in Angola prison and how that just caught fire. And it's changed the lives of so many prisoners on death row and really made A real solid impact on my life, the way it was being presented. So I start, wow. At the end, it talked about Black B and his books. So I went online, found Christian books, and they had them all over Christian books. So I bought the book, found out there as a Bible study. I bought the workbook, sat on my shelf for over a year, and I picked up the book about six months ago, started reading. I was like, oh my, this is amazing. And so then I was seeking an opportunity to actually go through it. And I forget how John and I end up talking about, about it, but it's like, let's do this.

You just asked me about it and I thought I had the book and I didn't. But yeah, I'm glad I did.

And so, so we went through it. But what this did for somebody like me, okay, look. Foundation of my faith. I'm always seeking God. I want to be closer to God. I feel I fall short daily and it makes me miserable. And as a result, I'm always asking these deep questions or these rabbit hole questions, if you will, that sometimes don't have any answers. But what they are is me seeking God. I want to know his will. I want to be a part of his will. I want to be in the center of it. I want to be the person he wants me to be, not the person I became. And so I'm always looking for those tools. This tool, coupled with the relationships I've grown in this church has put it all together for me like a three legged stool. Now it stands complete because I have the relationship with God. I have the relationship with my, with my brothers in Christ, the eldership, mature men who I can discuss these things with. And I also have the congregation, which I feel a responsibility to serve. Those three things have really brought me closer to where I believe God wants me to be. And using tools like this, taking the initiative, not waiting for Nick to assign it, not waiting for a Bible study to come around, but a desire to be closer to God is what started this. And I think that everybody on this podcast, everybody who's listening to this podcast, needs to be assured in their heart that that is what they're seeking. And if they are seeking that, then find the tools. We are tools. More learned people in the Bible are tools for you. Pastors are tools for you. And these books and these Bible studies are tools for you to put your armor on to fight the devil. Because this is a spiritual battle and every one of us is under spiritual attack right now. And if you don't believe it wait 48 hours and see what happens in your life that stresses you out and understand these are spiritual.

Is is this something that is. Is going through this. Would it be something that we could. How many lessons is it the better. Better. Better question. Not. Not dailies but the weeklies.

I think it's 12.

Would this be something that we could easily like do and then do a podcast on just talking about each. Each one.

I would say so.

So not to change 12 experiencing God as couples. It's just a workbook but okay so it goes along with the book but there's not a book. It's just a workbook and videos and it's. Its topics are more.

Okay got it at home and in the back. By the way it has all of these guides as well as the memorization that we're doing so.

But the experience that Goddess couples. That's topics are gone at work in your marriage, God's love relationship with you and your spouse. God invites you as a couple to become involved in his word. Basically the same stuff but it's how he's calling you as a couple. So this is for the individual. This is to take your marriage to the next more you and your wife can experience God together and enrich your.

Right so if Lizzie and I were going to read the book which she would read the book in like a day I would end up taking adjusting.

God's will for your marriage, allowing God to work through your marriage, committing to a covenant marriage. I mean it's just. It just sounds good.

See if I wanted to go through at the same time with Joanne I would tell God to tell her it started 15 minutes earlier.

Wow. This is not something I'm not striking that from it. He's really apologetic deep down. He just doesn't know yet.

Somewhere deep, deep down, way down, way.

Down, way down deep down in my soul.

I mean and. And another thing that has taken me you allowed me to borrow that book the daily devotion to experiencing God and that cool day to day.

Oh my Lock it in, didn't it dude.

So I sent out my message and that's from Larry. I send out my. I send out a daily message Monday through Friday and they recently be coming from that because everyone's gotten. My other messages come from the YouVersion Bible app. So it's like okay, everyone's starting to pick this up. So now I've been using. I've been using that and it's. It's amazing that the people who reply now before I was sending out to like 100 and something people a day and hardly any replies to typical people. Hey, good one. Hey. All right. Amen. Yeah, but now it's. That was really good.

Thought provoking.

Or now it's three days in a row. Why do you keep sending me this? I'm like, because God is telling me to send this and you must need it, so blame him, not me. And he's like, it's like you have just. I mean, and this is from.

That's how God works.

This is from another pastor who has said, you keep sending me these messages. I mean, I was sending to him anyways, but he's just like, you keep sending these messages that I really don't want to work on right now. Well, take that up with God, not me. So it's just. It's just amazing how God is just changing everything. And again, it's teaching me to pray and my prayers are more intimate. I'm not taking somebody else's prayer that they wrote out. I'm actually taking a prayer from what that lesson was that day. It's just been really good.

And for those of you who struggle with prayer or praying out loud or praying in group settings, let me tell you, it's the same. It's identical to how you pray in your head and in your home and by yourself. Like, just talk to God. You don't have to have fancy words. You don't have to. You don't have to have. You don't even have to technically have structure, although it. There is structure laid out if you want to use it.

Well, it's not a presentation or a speech.

It's stuttered.

Do what you got to do.

Just. You can't base God. You can't base your prayer life off of, off of a pastor's prayer. Right. And what he prays openly. I mean, you can't. Because they know all this.

No, no, let's take it further. You can't. You can't base it off of anybody.

Exactly. Well, that too.

Right. Like, if you want to get down to it, and, and some of you out there may be saying, well, Jesus put out a structure. Well, yeah, he did so.

But it was an outline.

Pray, pray. Right, that's. That's great. But it's. He wants to hear it in your words, not somebody else's. He wants you to talk to him, not somebody else talking.

He already knows what you're going to say anyways.

He knows what you're feeling.

He just wants you to want to talk to him.

And you know what? Who cares what Anybody else thinks when it comes to you talking to God, like, just talk to him. You know what? I can't tell you how many times I've been angry with God and I've spoken to him in a harsh way. And I know on the podcast that's coming out Monday, May 5th, I think I mentioned it now because I heard.

That you guys arguing. Yeah, I might actually listen to that one.

That one's pretty good. There's some argument. But I've been angry with God before, and sometimes his response to us is just as strong as what we talk to Him. Sometimes it's the same tone, right? And if we got an angry tone, sometimes it sounds angry and direct. But God will respond to you that. Because his shoulders are way bigger than ours. And he wanted you and he created you to speak to him and share your life with him. And that's all of it. Not just the good moments, not just the what is your will, you know, but the God, my kid's sick again. God, I am being attacked. God, I'm not hearing you.

You.

Like, he is totally big enough to handle all of those things, and he wants to hear it from you. So just talk to him.

And it.

It doesn't matter if there's people in the room or there's not. Just talk to God. It's okay. It's okay. Talk to Him. Like you wouldn't be talking to one of us. A little more reverence, but that's in your own words. Like, talk to Him, Dude, I've stopped.

Running from the option to pray out loud and just. I'm just gonna pray every chance I get. I'm gonna do it.

That's what we can do. The opportunity to show God our love return is all he's asking us to do. Much like we who have children look at our children and go, all I want to do is love you. All I want is your happiness. All I want is your success. Why do you keep screwing it up? And I imagine that's how God looks at us. He doesn't look at us with. With the disdain that people paint in his. In his Persona. He looks at us with hurt and sadness. That.

That's.

That's.

We fell short.

Great example is our children, right? Like, for. For a solid parent. Child structure. Whenever your kid steps out of line, it hurts. And it hurts because you know the consequences that they're gonna have to go through because they stepped out of line, and you don't want that for them. The hurt that's gonna come from it. The hard Part that's gonna come from it. But you want the lesson and you want them to learn from it. And that's God, too. That is what God wants of us. The consequences don't go away just because you realize it. And just because he loves us.

Just because repent doesn't mean you get out of jail free.

We have to go through the consequences so that we learn why that's not right.

You know what's been a new challenge for me? Learning to pray over and not just fall.

You were saying that. Explain that a little bit.

So.

It.

It's hard to explain, but you go back and you hear Jacob. I mean, you hear Isaac praying over and giving the blessing that wasn't for. He was praying over them, getting everything all mixed up. The 12 sons, what was their dad's name?

Okay, Jacob.

Okay. When Jacob, he didn't pray for his 12 sons. He prayed over them. Specific prayers for each one of them. So I'm. Look, it's still something I'm learning how to.

That's why I asked you to explain.

But the way I understand it and the way it's been explained to me twice in different ways, praying over is. Yes, there's usually hands and laying on hands of people is part of that, but it's also. It's more with the confidence. It's praying, knowing. Knowing the outcome, what you want. So praying over the church would be. I want the church to come here. So I'm going to pray over the church to this point because I know this is what God can do instead of, well, I pray for this and I pray for this. No, we're going to have this. You're going to have God. I pray, I pray that my son, he will be victorious. He will be bold in his walk. He will be a better lover of his wife. It's just different than praying for. In hopes that it comes. And it's. It's praying that you. You're already. I. It's hard to explain, and it's something I'm still learning on how to try to do. But there is a difference between praying for and praying over.

But I think that only comes we know what God's with.

Right? But God's been bringing that.

The more that you know God's will, the easier that will be. Right?

Yeah. And it's coming. But I've made it a point. So I'm in a Bible study with my son every other week, him and his friend, and they're younger. And of course I've made it a point. I Tell them I will end every session with prayer. One of you guys pray to start us off. I will end each Bible study with a prayer. And I'm specifically praying for them as the young men in their children church. And it's not for I am just praying victory in their lives that I know that you've got. There's a line and whatever it is, I mean I'm still learning it, but it's a cool journey that it's just changing. And Sundays when we come together and we pray, I try to, I'm trying to change my prayer more of a over niche than for Nick, over our church, than just for our church.

And let me make statement for those who are out there. As you heard John just say, he's still learning. Don't think that you ever stop learning just because you have a status or you've been around in the church for a long time. If you stop learning, then you've gone off the rail. Get closer to God. Learn as much as you can. Time is short. We don't have decades to do this. We have until our next heartbeat. And if we don't do it, then we have to face our Creator and tell him we didn't when we had the chance. So continue to learn.

And please, just because you don't get an answer doesn't mean it's no. It means you may not be ready for the answer that God is going to give you. So if you're not hearing anything, if you're going through the low and you keep praying for something to happen, learn on how you can get yourself ready for that. Because there's several places, there's several places that Jesus has said, don't share this. They're not ready for it. Some answers, we're not ready. So God's not going to tell us the answer until we have spiritually become ready for the answer that he gives. It could be a no. It could be a yes. But we're in that low, over in that dense.

Let me ask you this.

We're not ready to receive that answer.

Does God answer all prayers?

Yes.

Does God answer all prayers?

Answers them. Not in our timing. Not in our timing, not how we want it, but in our time.

I would say, I would say my.

Timing compared to God's timing.

When we ask. God says yes, no or not yet. Right. And the not yets are still an answer. And it's no for now. Like that's, that's what not yet is.

But I wouldn't take it as a no. I would take It. Okay, what do I do? How can I get myself ready to hear the no? Because he's gonna tell us that yes or a no.

Right?

But sometimes I'm not ready is. You're not ready, right. For whatever answer I give you. It's not a yes or a no. It's a continue to prepare yourself and get yourself ready because I'm willing to give you this.

Answered that as Kevin was talking about earlier with the whole learning to pray, and I think you mentioned that earlier, too. I. A lot of people listening know that, like, my story with my daughter, and then the fact that, like, at the beginning, I was praying one thing, and by the end of her being sick all the time, like, I was praying another thing, and that's. You are going to. If you're experiencing no answer, you feel right, examine what you're praying, look at how you're praying, and see if there's a different thing that you should be praying. Right? Because at first it was God, please take this from her, right? This illness from her. And then it was, God, give the illness to me. Like, I started bartering with God, which I think everybody does to some extent at some point in their life, Right? And it was because it hurt to see her going through it. But by the end of it, my. My prayer had adapted to, okay, God, what. What's the goal in this? What are we supposed to be doing? Where. Where are we. What are we supposed to be doing for you? What are we supposed to be seeing in this? Like, who are we supposed to be affecting? Like, those sort of things came at the end of. Of that with me learning what I'm supposed to be praying in the midst of. Of the response.

Spiritually not mature for the answer just yet. And that's all I was trying to say in those lulls. It's not a no, it's a continue to grow, continue to mature in your walk with me, and I will give you that answer. I will give you. I will give you my answer yes or no. But. But if we're spiritually mature, we're ready for the no answer. Okay, I got that.

And no, no. And not yet. Like I was saying, could be you're not asking the right question. Like you said, right? Like, you're not asking the right question. Like, and.

And that takes maturity, too. That takes maturity to start asking that right question. Yeah.

And I think a solid prayer for. For those who like a structured prayer, the serenity prayer is great for that. And for those of you who don't know what it Is it is. God, grant me the serenity to accept the things that. That I cannot change, the courage to change the things that I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Right? And that is huge. That is a huge part of the whole growing process is like God, look, I can't reconcile these things. So grant me the serenity, let me have peace in the things that I can't change and move forward. God, give me the courage to step up into the things that I can change. Show me what the difference is with the wisdom. Like, show me which is which, so that I. I might just fall into your will, right? With how you want me to be.

Well, and in that. If you think about the serenity prayer, three things just hit me. What you are asking God for is three gifts in that prayer. You're asking for serenity, you're asking for wisdom, and you're asking for courage and promises.

Those are promises too, right? It's not just gifts, but they're promises that are given to us. He promised us that if we seek his. His peace, right?

He operates through peace.

And when you seek courage, God says all over scripture to be courageous. Courageous, right. Then wisdom is the number one thing.

You can ask for.

Look what he gave Solomon, right?

Dude, I can see now why this came when it did. In my life, I myself haven't been well, I haven't experienced a spiritual battle myself, but I'm experiencing it through my son because he's been really struggling with just guidance. And he hates his job so much. He doesn't really hate his job. He hates the hours. He's just searching and searching. But through. Through learning God's will and wanting to get a closer relationship with him, I was. I was able to help him through this battle, and it's helped him. So now he's found the peace at his job. It's still the same job. It's still the same hours. He's found the peace.

So there's still storage at. God just gave him peace in the storm.

But God has also now showed him I have you. He's finally showing him why he has him here. I said, you first have to find peace with where God has you. Make sure, make sure God is telling you to move or he's telling you to stay. So he's like, I think God's telling me to stay. I don't know why, but he does. And then just the other night, God showed him. He's getting ready to get this new helper on, on the machine that he's at. This guy has stepped away from the church, but he's getting ready to be side by side with my son. And my son told me, he's like, dad, I see why God has me here right now.

There you go.

And I'm like, I'm like, that's all I told you to do, is don't move until he Quit trying to make yourself move. Quit trying to do all these things. He's like, I want to start a Bible college. Why do you want to start a Bible college? Oh, I just want to know more about the Bible. That's not why you start the Bible college. It's, is it going to draw you closer to intimate relationship with God or is it just a knowledge? And he's like, I don't know now. I said, anything you do needs to be drawing you closer to God, a more intimate relationship with him. And so it's just been good because no, it's not a personal spiritual battle, but it is a spiritual battle for me because I was able to.

Well, plus signals like God is helping teach you through teaching him. I mean, 100% that's what discipleship is, right? Because as you're mentoring him, you are learning along the way.

Which, by the way, is why I say that when you become a Christian, if there's not a readily available discipleship group, start one. You don't have to be a completely experienced Christian and knowledgeable Christian order to start a Bible study and discipleship group. You do not have to have that. There are plenty of resources out there for you to use that. You can do it.

Well, if I can interject, the boat is behind one of my Bible studies. I wanted to know more about the book of James. They didn't have a Bible study of it. So I said, okay. And I got a couple guys together said, hey, let's go through the book of James. James. Why? Because I wanted to learn more. And in learning, I was departing my knowledge to them, they were departing their knowledge to me. We were in Scripture together. It became a Bible study. It led to another one which led to this. It's just. I just wanted to learn more. It's not about knowing more, it's about learning more. So the stuff you don't know about those are the Bible studies you should start, get some people in them.

And look, if you're still asking what a disciples group is, big words, different people have so many different things. Look, start a group with men or women. Yes, I would say men. You must. I think each. Women need women in their lives and need men. In their life specifically to help you grow closer to God and not anything else. It's not just to know a book. Why do you want to know this book? Ultimately, it's become more intimate with God. Start these relationships with these guys. You're giving these people permission to be in your life. And as they grow and you grow, you encourage one another. You hold each other accountable. You can call each other out.

I mean, I think. I think the struggle I think most people have, though, when they're. Especially when they're starting out with something, is that, like, I think most people don't realize that God doesn't want you to know all this stuff for heaven. That's not the goal. The goal is to be doing life with Jesus here right now.

And then we'll get heaven, right? I mean, that. I mean, ultimately, look, look. Heavens already ours. That's the ultimate price. That's where our hope comes from. This is not it for us. But heaven's not the reason why we're doing it. We're doing it because we want to bring glory to God, right? We want to love him. We want to show him our love in return for what he gets us.

And why do we evangelize?

So others can have that same experience and be. And get that intimate relationship, Join us on the party. That's why we evangelize. There's no other reason. It's because I love that person. Why? Because God loves me first, right? He loved me enough to pull me out of the mud and grime that I was in. And he calls me to continue that love relationship. Why would I want anyone else to. To stay in the mud?

I'm with you 100%.

I mean, that's why we evangelize. We don't evangelize for any reason. Then I want you to love God the way God. The way I'm loving God or the way. I mean, I. I want you to.

I want you to experience the joy I'm feeling from the relationship I have with my creator. And if you don't, Come on, let's talk. Because obviously one of us is. Knows something the other doesn't. And I really see it that way. I seek people that know more than me because I want to know more. I want to know more because I want to please my God. And it's really that simple. So when I. When I seek these things, when I go down these rabbit trails, when I. When I get in these quagmires, I feel that, to use my dad's statement to me, God gave us These gifts of a questioning mind. To not use that questioning mind would actually be a sin. Which is why I ask these difficult questions of my own faith. Because at some point there may be somebody who needs to have that answer. And therefore, if I haven't tried to work through it now, I won't be ready when God puts that person in front of me and I take the weight of the job he has given me to bring his children to him deeply. And I feel the weight of it. And if it weren't for Christ carrying the weight of it for me, I'd be overwhelmed.

Let me. Let me give us some encouragement to those who are at all similar to me in that we gotta. We have to have the answers. We have to know, right? Doesn't mean we have to have all the answers, but those of us who struggle with the not knowing and feel like we need to know. I almost quit ministry before I ever started it because of the question of the Trinity.

Okay?

I can't explain the Trinity in a perfect way to people. So how. How can I teach them about the Trinity? Was my thought process, like, if I don't understand it perfectly, then how can I teach them, right? I was in college, I was dumb and young, but I came to the realization that sometimes we can't understand perfectly. But because we don't have all of the access to all of the knowledge, right? Like we don't have the understanding that God has.

Right?

And sometimes there's just things outside of us that we can't know. And it's still a struggle for me at times, but I moved past the fact that, like, the Trinity is a thing, right? Like there's the Father, the Son, the Spirit, Holy Spirit, and just because they're. It can't. I can't perfectly explain that to somebody doesn't mean that I can't tell them the truth of it. Right?

Doesn't exist, right?

I can't. I can. I can tell them this is what it is. And even if I can't explain how it all works, right?

So I think there's a lot of. I think there's a lot of what you and I gone through this before. There's just some things. Things I'm okay with. I don't need an answer to it. That's. Dude, that's right. When I do need it, when I need that answer and I'm seeking it, and if it's an answer that I need, look, God will give me that answer. But I'm not going to sit around and argue something that at this point doesn't change anything, right? I mean, yeah, I mean some answers are cool, but at some point I can't explain why I believe that, but I know it says it here, so that's why I'm gonna believe it. It makes some people mad, but I can't get caught up in the. And, and for me, I can't continue to ask the why. The why, because it's just gonna hang me up.

Well, and I think that that is, that's that to bring it full circle to Calvin, right? Yeah, I think that's why it's. It's not, it's not complete. It's because sometimes we try to be. Speak on things in a way of authority and knowledge that we haven't fully understood yet. I think that that's it. Like when you look at people like, especially Bible scholars, right? Sometimes they start going down a path of I'm speaking from authority and they haven't fully fleshed anything out yet. Like they, they think they have, but they haven't got it all. And so like they'll start picking, picking up on nuances that they start arguing about. Piper and NT Wright are perfect examples of this. They went back and forth on things for a long time. Justification, I think, was one of the big ones. And that concept, like, guess what? Sometimes we just don't have the full understanding to do it perfect. But also we have to know that like God's wants good for us. And that has to be enough in some of those questions, right? We have to accept things on the face value sometimes that we can't understand because God is good, right? And we have to just kind of get that.

I agree with you completely. And I use analogies, very simple analogies in real life to draw the picture. We tell our child not to. Not to touch the hot burner on the stove and we might even smack the child's hand to keep them away from it. And in that the child doesn't understand what we're doing is good, but what we are doing is good. And sometimes things happen in our lives that we allow to happen or let us to where we are. And then we have these things happen and they're not in our opinion, good. And we attribute them as being bad because we don't understand God's good and we don't understand as we're having our hands smacked from that hot burner, that why God is smacking it or allowing it to be smacked in that moment. Yet we move forward with our own lack of understanding and attribute motivation and cause to it. The reality is we're children, we are babies, we know nothing about God's will. And the more I study his Word, the more I pray, the more I stay with God in my life, the more my answers become less concrete and they become the only authority on those answers are God's authority. And therefore I don't have the answers. I don't pretend to have the answers. What I have are theories and speculation. And what I do is I strive to gain more, more and more knowledge so they're closer to what's real, knowing full well that they may not in fact be real. Because God is true. God is just and never moving.

Let's not say that. That it's not real, but more like not complete.

However you want to say it in your. For clarity sake, I'm fine.

Scripture is scripture and it's solid and concrete.

It is.

Doesn't mean we grasp the full concept of it. Right. We may not have the full. Well, clarity.

I guess what I was trying to say, though, for me, when that question gets to a point that it starts the way it hangs me up in my. In my faith. And now my faith is hanging on an answer to that, right. If it's no longer an answer I need to seek, I don't need that answer. Arguing is going to do nothing because.

Now, see what I do.

So it's. I'm just gonna. I have to go on faith, right. But what I do is for a reason. And I have to say, well, he knows what's best.

But I seek out people like you two. And I talk about it. Not because I'm trying to change your mind or even know mine. I'm just going, okay, well, this is a thought I had. What do you guys think? Because I think that God moves us closer to him through those discussions.

But I know some of the. I know some of the conversations that Derek and I have gotten into. Well. And yes, but part of it. Part of it was me trying to continue to go on with that question. And at some point when I stop, it's just I don't need the answer and I'm okay with this answer.

And, and I think the thing that the disconnect that we've had in some of those is that it's not hanging me up. I am just trying to find fully understand this better. Like, none of that stuff's hanging. Like, well, well, yeah, the things that I brought up, I'm not saying.

I'm not saying it's hanging me up, but it's like I can't explain it for you to understand it better. So I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna be done. That's, that's how it's like I gotta be done. Because you're gonna continue to argue, right? And, and at some point, it's not worth arguing. It's just like.

And for, for anybody listening, I hope you are.

I hope you seek that. I hope you. I hope you find the answer that you're looking for. I can't give it to you, but I'm not going to. I can't continue with this argument because it, it could pull our friendship further apart if I keep going. And that's why I say I don't.

Need to know arguing that stuff's not going to pull my side of the relationship apart.

Right? Yeah.

Well, for anybody who knows me and knows that I like to argue, I like to argue because I like to pull it apart and understand it and argue things till I have an understanding. And if you got a step away from that, I get it. Just let me know that. But also, like, I'm seeking a point of understanding and that's just, that's how God's built me to understand things. So I just want to put that out there too. Like, obviously, if it's gonna hurt, hurt your side of things, then definitely stop. But that.

Push up, push up. I'll pull down. I don't know.

I, I think we should probably wrap up.

I got a. So animal.

Kevin, you have anything you want to say in, in wrapping up? Just to.

I really. Yeah. Well, I really, I really thank you for the opportunity and, and, and the, the venue to actually have these discussions. Because what they are again is they're meant to evoke thought, meant to bring you closer to an understanding of God and some of the thoughts of the people around you. These are open discussions you should willingly enter into. As long as there's no animus between you and the people you're talking to, you will use it as an, honestly, an academic exercise. Become closer to God to know him, to understand him better. That's the goal. So if you've heard anything here that has you wanting to claw through the screen, hey, seek me out. Seek us out. Let's have a conversation. I would value hearing your difference of opinion. I'd also value hearing anything that would solidify more of ours. But the reality is a lot of these philosophical discussions are just that they do not have answers that, that are written in doctrine. And therefore they are wonderful conversations to occupy our time and the Way I see it is it's better than watching a two hour movie on tv. So I'd much rather do this with my time. So I thank you guys for being a part of it. Absolutely. I look forward to the next one.

I thank you for the invite and if time permitted, I'd like to come to the next one. I was dreading, I was actually dreading the whole rabbit trail trails because I know how the rabbit trails can go with you guys. I see that, but it's like, I don't. I know with you and I, some of our discussions, I'm just ready to end them.

Yeah, I know, but so, but this was much different.

It's not working on these two guys. Right. Look, look, Derek and I might be so much.

You're at each other's path, but I'm.

Going to tell you one thing. There's no, no other person that I would not call if I needed something other than you. I mean, two of my favorite people in the world. Two of my favorite people in the world are sitting right here.

I would not be where I'm at without my relationship with John.

I mean, I have, I have two new best friends in my life. And it's only happened because of our discussions and because of the respect that we have.

And truthfully, isn't that what we want for everybody?

And let me, let me say this because some people get caught up on like struggles with other people. Like sometimes, whether we like confrontation or not, sometimes confrontation has to happen. And I know that in our relationship there's been good things come from confrontation that we've gone through together. And sometimes you have to follow, always you have to follow the Holy Spirit. And sometimes the Holy Spirit is going to call you to continue to confront and continue to confront and continue to confront until breakthrough, breakthrough happens. And, and that comes with accountability and it comes in, in discipleship and, and.

Love and love for your brother.

100.

So we couldn't, we couldn't do this if we weren't.

Iron sharpens iron.

Absolutely.

When you sharpen iron, what happens? They split. Spark. Sparks fly. And it's gonna, but it like the sparks, but it makes those two pieces much stronger. So every time spark says I, I believe that there's been more sparks flowing between Derek and I than Kevin and I. But I know that it has solidified. It's made me stronger as a believer. I hope it's made Derek stronger, but it's made our relationship even much stronger.

Stronger. So not only that, but I, I want to, I want to Point out, like with iron, sharpening iron, like that concept can, can both be the way that we typically understand it, but also like there is iron. Sharpening iron also means that sometimes there's that, that practice combat. Right. That, that, that sparring that has to happen so that whenever we get in the real situation, we.

Well, that's what this is about.

Right?

Right.

So that's, that's something that. That's another way of thinking about that we don't typically hear. So, John, do you have anything that you'd like to share with people?

No, just thanks. And this was, this was really good. But I'm a bachelor, so I have animals probably waiting to cross their legs.

Yeah, your animals have grown to love Serenity.

And I thank you for taking him out earlier today.

That's great. It was fun. And thank you guys for hanging in there with us and listening and, and, and going on this rabbit trail journey with us. It was very much a bunch of rabbit trails.

That's the way to go.

But it actually flowed really well.

I don't think it was. I think it was rabbit trails that led to a conclusion. That's where we got some really good. Yeah, it started off in a bunch of different places, but we ended up where I think we needed to. Where we needed to end up. Yeah, I really do.

100. If you guys have needs prayer requests, want to join us?

Want to go down a rabbit trail? Let's go.

Yeah. If you guys have suggestions of things that like, you know, are just out there conversations, we're open to that. That's what the. The Rabbit hole is really about, is just kind of following those crazy things, thoughts a little bit and seeing what scripture has to say about it and just working through those. Those little things. You can reach us on our Facebook or Instagram. The the Truth response. The is a part of it. The Truth response and TheTruth response. Gmail.com is our email. You can listen to our regular stuff on YouTube. Join us on Patreon. There's going to be some cool things happening here in the near future with opportunities.

Oh, kick with the 20 membership. Get your T shirt and be insider.

Yeah, there you go. It's an ambassador. Be an ambassador of truth, which is.

We'Re going to come up with some cool things we're going to do with that. Yeah, could be outings, could be all sorts of stuff, but you won't know if you're not in.

Well. And that also brings to point the challenge that we recently put on on our regular podcast and that is we are looking to have 100 subscriptions. That's all. That's all we're asking for is 100 subscriptions. I believe God can do way more than that. But we're asking for 100 subscriptions by the end of the year and 100 listens within the first 24 hours on everything else by the end of the year. And come March. Well, if we get that, which is only going to come from you guys helping us, then we will be doing a live podcast party for episode 250. So our 250th episode, we are going to do a live broadcast party in person. Like, people can come. We're gonna. We're gonna have snacks. We're gonna have a panel. I'm gonna. I'm trying to pull some people we've had in the past to come and speak on it. It'll be a longer form podcast, kind of like this one. It'll be. It'll be a party. That's what it's gonna be. Maybe we'll even dabble in the taking questions from the audience bit that we should do. And hopefully, if everything goes the way that I'm seeing it going. Going, it will actually be live for you to watch and stream actively and maybe even. Maybe even call in and post questions and stuff while we're going. So we'll have a moderator and stuff like that as well, looking over it. So it's a. It's gonna be a big thing.

And when do we forecast 250 being?

March of next year.

March of next year.

All right. March of next year. So we're asking. We're asking for the. The to reach at least that goal by the end of the year in order to plan for that 250 in that two months, two and a half months period.

Can we mention our church by name?

Yeah. When we do it.

Okay. Yeah. So for the men listening out there, the. The Rise. The Men of Rise is our ministry is going to really start kicking off this year. We have our first weekend event coming on Father's Day weekend.

Yep.

People, anyone's invited.

This is 2025.

This is 2025. Yep. And more to come. A lot of stuff in the works. Planning on starting our own little personal page if I can maybe even come up with their own little website. Not. Not separate from the church, but basically just one just for the Men of Rise. So please reach out to me or whatever. I need suggestions of, you know, Bible studies, you want to learn, whatever it may be. We're. We're going Further, look out. We got this thing coming up called the Meetup. We're going to just offer grills. Bring your. Bring the meat you want to eat. We're just going to hang out, eat some red meat or even some chicken if you want, but you grill your own meat. And we're just going to hang out and talk for you cigar smokers out there, they're going to be a temp for you guys just to hang out with us and smoke cigars, literally. The Men of Rise is going to be a whole new change this year and into next year. So be on the lookout for the changes coming.

Yep. And as a reminder, the books we pushed on this, this episode was Experiencing God, along with the various workbooks that can go along with it and growing up as, as a. As a good couple of different areas you could start from. So.

And what the stuff that we've been doing for the men's podcast that's actually being rewritten and changing.

So all of the men's podcasts are just out the window is what he's saying.

No, they're not out the window. We can continue with what we've got, but be on the lookout because there'll be more. But they'll evolve into even more of the same topics, but it's going a little different. Cool.

Also, if you're a woman and you want to be on the Rabbit Hole or the regular podcast, we are looking for a female who wants to be a regular on the Truth Response podcast. We meet on Wednesdays and record on Wednesdays in the afternoon, about 4 o' clock. And I feel like we are lacking that female voice in our regular conversations. You don't have to be crazy knowledgeable. We just want a female perspective who is a Christian to. To be on it. And so that's the thing. If you want to be on the Rabbit Hole, contact me and we will make sure you know when the next one is. It won't always be us sitting around doing this out here. Sometimes it'll be in a different location. So just let us know and we'll. We can make that happen. I realize not everybody wants to be sitting around smoking cigars, but if that's. That's you and you want to join, we will. We'll make that happen. Without the cigars. That's fine. It's our first one with cigar, so it's second one ever.

So also on that. I'm sorry, I know we're dragging on.

No, no, it's good.

So I've written stuff about American man's identity. That's what we've been sharing on the men's podcast. But we are also working on the same stuff for women so women can embrace their identity while the so the women of rise or just women in general can brace their identity. I've got some solid women who are taking the stuff that I've written and they're going to write it for women. Myself is more towards men, so I can't write about what women need. And. But it's the same truths, the same four basic truths, the same characteristics changed up a little bit. But it's basically God's created us men to embrace our masculinity and he's created women to embrace their femininity. And both these studies are going to help us see what that like looks looks like, what masculine masculinity looks like and what femininity looks like. And I think it's just going to be great. And it's going to help in any church that wants their men and women to draw closer to God. I think it's going to be something really good. But that's in the works too. Very cool. Cool.

Thanks guys for joining us on this episode of the Rabbit Hole. Episode number two of that. And look for more to come. This may become a more regular thing than four times a year.

I recommend it.

I feel like we get more listens to the longer form, which is strange to me. But it's just real conversations. It's. It's less structured, which I know some people struggle with. But I appreciate you hanging in there with us. And as always, God bless.

And if they have a topic, send it in.

Yeah, send it in. Like I said, I want to talk it. God bless. Hey, thanks for joining us. Make sure to subscribe and give us a like on itunes and Spotify so that you will never miss a show. And while you're at it, check out our Facebook and Instagram pages and make sure you tell your friends about this show. You don't want them to miss out on the truth, because we are all about the truth. Thanks for joining us this week and God bless this.