Randy Kimmel: [00:00:00] We're looking at the trust document. We're looking at the, uh, the estate documents and really helping to fulfill the wishes of the grantors, um, based on how the, how the document was drafted. And it, we do have heart. It's not that we're emotionless, [00:00:15] but we're able to remove the emotion from making certain determinations and decisions.

Voiceover: Welcome to Metcalf Money Moment. The podcast unlock financial clarity and confidence with expert insights to achieve [00:00:30] your goals. Hosted by Jeb Graham, Ethan Hutchinson and Eric Wymore. Each episode offers decades of combined expertise in wealth management, retirement planning, and more. Join us for practical strategies to inspire your financial journey.[00:00:45]

Now, your host.

Jeb Graham: Welcome to Metcalf Money Moment, the podcast. My name is Jeb Graham, here with, uh, Ethan Hutchison and Eric Wymore, who [00:01:00] are co-hosts and partners, Metcalf Partners. We have a special guest today, Randy Kimmel, uh, and Randy's with BOK Financial Advisor Trust Services, which is a third party corporate trustee.

Uh, welcome Randy. And [00:01:15] how's everybody doing? Thanks for having me. Thanks for joining Randy. Yeah, we're glad you're here. Um, and you know, we thought it would be really beneficial to have you on, uh, maybe to talk to some of our clients about what a corporate trustee is. Uh, I know we have [00:01:30] used, and I know there's a couple around town.

You know, a lot of times when a, when a client goes to a corporate trustee. They have to move all of their money to that corporate trustee. And there's only a couple players around town that will allow, uh, a, [00:01:45] a client that comes into them to still use their existing financial advisor so they can provide the corporate trustee services, and then the, the client can stay with their current financial advisor.

And I think, uh, I know you guys are really big in that space. I wanna talk a little bit [00:02:00] about that today. And I think what we also wanna talk about just in general, is. Is, why would somebody name a corporate trustee, right? Because, uh, if you think about it, what, what a corporate trustee can do is act as an executor on an estate.

They can act as a trustee on a trust. And in [00:02:15] general, uh, you know, a lot of times families will determine that, that maybe that's a way to help avoid conflict, uh, when, you know, an estates passing down to the next generation and that sort of thing. So, uh, anyhow, glad to have you on. So why don't you talk a little bit about.

Uh, [00:02:30] B. Okay. Financial Advisor Trust Services, what you guys do and kind of what that corporate trustee role is.

Randy Kimmel: Absolutely. Well, thanks again for having me on and, uh, it's a pleasure to be here and, and speak with you on this topic. It's a very important topic, um, especially for all the, the reasons that [00:02:45] you just mentioned, but, uh, in, in the history of BOK Financial, we initially started, um, our.

Organization, 1910, and we opened our trust administration offices in 1918. In fact, we're still administering some of those [00:03:00] trusts from 1918, still to this day, so well over 100 years. So when you're looking at those high net worth clients, uh, complexity dynasty situations, uh, we're no stranger to that. So, uh, that's something that's a space that we work very well in.

But, um. [00:03:15] About 15 to 20 years ago, we realized that there is a need and, and, and, and that need is the of the family and the advisor that they're working with. And so I think it's very necessary to point out the [00:03:30] fact that you all do a lot of work with your clients. You've got your meetings, you get your planning, you get your tax strategies, you've got all these things that you're doing.

And many times if the. Individuals creating a trust, don't realize that they're naming a trustee [00:03:45] that is not what we call advisor friendly. That all of that work that, that you all spent in building their plan, uh, all the time that the family spent in creating the, working with you to, to find the answers, to find documents and put things together, [00:04:00] work through scenarios.

All that goes out the window if you have a non-ad advisor, friendly corporate trustee. And, and so in a traditional trust model, what we're looking at is when the grantor becomes incapacitated or passes [00:04:15] away, uh, the corporate trustee is, is as you mentioned, a third party organization that comes in and helps to, uh, serve as trustee when the grantors are no longer able to do so.

Um. That, that corporate trustee will come in [00:04:30] and pull the assets from the advisor, uh, leaving the family to not only mourn the loss of a loved one, but now they have to recreate relationships with a whole new team of people at a completely different organization that doesn't understand the family dynamics.

[00:04:45] And I, I'm sure that. When I'm, if I were, if I were to ask you, you know, how many, um, clients do you know, their kids, maybe even their grandkids? You, you probably have a handful that you can think of right off the top of your head. And, and so your role as the [00:05:00] advisor is extremely important to the family and the situation of, of loss or, um, uh, of course incapacitation.

Uh, but then. The families need someone to, to turn to, to be able to, to say, what do we do next? And they needed that rock to [00:05:15] lean on. And many times, as you know it, it's in the role of the financial advisor and investment managers. You're not just dealing with money, you're dealing with lots of emotion as well.

And, uh, and so the family is gonna lean on you. So about 15 to 20 years ago, we realized that this is an important need. [00:05:30] This is a service that we can provide to, um, families that, that want to work with their preferred financial advisor. And, uh, it, it's, it's a great relationship and that way things remain intact.

Emotions stay in check, uh, for the most part. Um, mm-hmm. [00:05:45] But at least there's, there's, there's a, there's clarity and a path forward.

Eric Wymore: I was gonna say, when you, when you made, you know, you made references, some complexities in an estate plan. I mean, maybe that's, you know, could you touch on a couple of things that you see as a corporate trustee that you can help, uh, [00:06:00] eliminate some of those?

Or, or, or mitigate, I guess those complexities, uh, when you're dealing with, as an executor, as a corporate trustee?

Randy Kimmel: Sure. We, we like to say that, uh. We bring family. Our, our business is really family harmony, and so we bring some [00:06:15] harmony to the, the family as much as we can. Um, look, Thanksgiving dinner is awkward enough sometimes with family that you don't see very often.

And so when you throw money in the mix, um, it can get even more challenging. And then you throw someone that is, um, [00:06:30] you know, that has been declined, a distribution from, from Uncle Uncle Sam down at the end of the table while, uh. While, uh, nephew Johnny is, you know, carving the Turkey, it can and, and if Sam denied Johnny, that [00:06:45] distribution, there could be some resentment there.

Um, and so that impacts family harmony, um, quite a bit. And so there's emotions that are also tied to it. Sometimes individual trustees will make decisions on distributions. Um. [00:07:00] Not intentionally with an emotional, uh, foundation, but, but sometimes that comes into play and that can also impact, um, future, uh, well future situations with other beneficiaries and especially if, if other beneficiaries think it might be showing favoritism.

[00:07:15] So having a a, a group like us to come in and to be able to serve. It removes the emotion. We're looking at the trust document. We're looking at the, uh, the estate documents and really helping to fulfill the wishes of the grantors, um, based on how the, how [00:07:30] the document was drafted. And it, we do have heart.

It's not that we're emotionless, but we're able to remove the emotion from making certain determinations and decisions. And, um, I think it's also mm-hmm. Important to mention that. If there [00:07:45] is an individual in the family that the grantor wants to have as a trustee, we can also serve as co-trustee so we can work with that family.

Mm-hmm. Through the, through that individual that really has the, the inner knowings and inner workings of the family. And the great [00:08:00] thing is, is a Thanksgiving table, you can say, Hey, those. That trustee can say those, those co-trustees over there, the big bad guys, they're the ones that said no, they're the ones that are taking the responsibility for interpreting the document.

Um, this, that also helps to kind of ease some of the family tensions when it comes to those [00:08:15] complexities.

Jeb Graham: Well, I, I tell you, I, I would, I would tell you from perspective, so I think Eric, Ethan, myself, we would all agree that we've, we've all been through this. Dynamic where we have a client who, one of the siblings is the trustee, right?

And the [00:08:30] executor of the estate. And they do get into, you know, some sort of a conflict. And a lot of times that conflict that I've seen can last, I mean it can last years and sometimes it never mends, right? So it's basically siblings that don't like each other anymore, that go [00:08:45] through this whole process and feel like one of them was, was cheated and all that.

And I think another flip side of that, and this is, um. A deal where, where my family, this would be my parents and I have two brothers, and, and, and we've all decided collectively that [00:09:00] we want a third party trustee, right? And or a third or, and a corporate trustee. And the reason is 'cause nobody really wants to take it on.

A lot of times the person that's named as the executor or the trustee doesn't fully understand exactly how much work is involved and sometimes they don't wanna do it. And so I [00:09:15] think that's where, uh, a family needs to kind of think that through as well, is just make sure whoever's sitting in that position actually wants

Randy Kimmel: the job.

Absolutely. And you know, I, I know that you all had a guest on, uh, an attorney on, um, some time back and, and he mentioned about having the [00:09:30] conversation with your family members and letting them know, you know, who is the one that, that we've chosen to serve and here's the reason why. Um, but then also they have the opportunity to say, Nope.

I don't want this off. I don't want, I do not want to take the time to do [00:09:45] this, but, um, another situation that I came across recently, um, was we had the son-in-law, uh, of a grant tour, um, that, uh, and the grant tour was quite wealthy. Um, they had a, a nice cattle operation out, I think [00:10:00] in West Texas. Um, and so.

Generational wealth as well. And so they wanted the son-in-law to be able to serve as, um, trustee, absolutely capable to do so. The the son-in-law, um, is a on, is an entrepreneur, [00:10:15] number of businesses bought and sold. So, so he understands, uh, complexity and, and difficult situations. When you're serving as an individual trustee, what a lot of people don't realize is that your personal wealth and your personal assets are exposed [00:10:30] because you as the trustee have some liability in the, in this place.

Um, and, and when you serve. And so if there's a misstep and it is. Significantly misguided, um, then that could potentially expose that personal wealth. And so the [00:10:45] question came up with us as well, that, that that's a challenge because we know that our daughter is married to this person that has. Created great wealth and, and great businesses, and we don't wanna take a chance on that, on that getting, um, exposed, so, [00:11:00] uh, exposed to litigation.

And so that's where a a, a corporate trustee would also be able to come in and, and help serve, uh, as another added layer of protection.

Ethan Hutcheson: Randy, when do you, when does your role come into play? Do you sit down with the [00:11:15] clients, uh, and the estate planning attorney and help draft the trust? Or do you sim do they simply just put language in the trust that identifies?

Uh, B. Okay. Financial. As the corporate trustee, what sort of involvement do you have? During that process. And then when do you come in? Is that [00:11:30] upon in incapacitation of life of the grantor?

Randy Kimmel: Great. Great question. Great question, Ethan. Um, so at the beginning, um, more than happy to come in and consult with, um, with clients, uh, that you may have that want, that are, that are working [00:11:45] to build their estate plan or even update their estate plan.

Um, and so we've done it both ways. Sometimes, uh, grantors will just say, yep, just go ahead and name them. We trust you and your decision and, and working with them, let's move forward. Um, many times they want to actually have a conversation, [00:12:00] um, because they just wanna know who we are, what we stand for, uh, what we do, and how we work with you.

And, uh, so I have those calls all the time. Um, it, it adds a little extra peace of mind, uh, in knowing, you know, that there is an actual person [00:12:15] that we're, that's standing behind the name that we're working, uh, that that's actually working with the organization that we're naming in this document. And, um, but we also can help from an administration standpoint.

I, I do a lot of consulting with, with clients. It's okay, what happens [00:12:30] if this happens? Or, or how do you handle this situation? Uh, what about this asset? What, what? What do we do with this? Um, and so then I can provide them some, uh, direction and some advice from when we administer the document. That [00:12:45] asset, what that's gonna look like.

Now we tiptoe that line of legal advice because we need to make sure that the attorney, uh, is the one that is really providing legal advice of those situations. I can only give it from the, give information from the perspective of, of [00:13:00] administering, uh, the document. Uh, and so, you know, unique and special assets are something that we haven't touched base on yet, but, um, that's anything outside marketable securities that you all would normally handle?

Real estate, closely held, uh, [00:13:15] oil and gas rights, even art. Um, those are things that a corporate trustee might be able to, um, uh, administer, uh, under the umbrella of the trust also. So from the beginning, we want to have the conversation. If the client wants [00:13:30] to, no problem. What I'll do is we have sample language that we provide, uh, to you, uh, to either give to the attorney or the client.

That allows us to, uh, kind of allows some language that, that we like to see in the trust [00:13:45] document, um, as well as opportunities for you to be named as the investment manager in the trust document. Uh, then at that point I'll review a draft of it and make sure the naming conventions are correct. I'm not doing a deep dive because 20, 30 years, a number of things could change, um, regarding the [00:14:00] estate and, and the trust document itself.

Um. Then what we want to do is at least be able to keep a copy of, of, of that document on file just so we have it for quick reference. 'cause sometimes more than likely you'll be the first call family will, will, will, the first people [00:14:15] family will reach out to, uh, will be you in the firm. Um, but there are times where they come across our name, they look us up, and they reach out to us as well.

So it's always nice to have a copy. Um, so, so now that's kind of the beginning portion. Let's fast forward 20, 30 years from [00:14:30] now, uh, we start to see some health concerns. It is much easier for us to get involved on the early onset of situations if it's at, if it's at all possible. Um, the reason being is, uh, I worked with a family, [00:14:45] um, the, uh, the mother had con, had, had, had, had.

Been fighting terminal cancer, uh, for about 18 months. Uh, their financial advisor knew it. The accountant knew it. The attorney knew it. The executor knew it. We did not find out about this until after she [00:15:00] passed, and so they're ready to move forward. But we still have a lot of due diligence we have to do.

Just because we're in the document, we still have to understand the situation, the dynamics. And, and the assets. So there's, uh, a lot of work that needs to be done. Uh, and we could [00:15:15] have, we can definitely come in in those moments where there is a terminal diagnosis, uh, to help again, provide additional support, um, and, and start taking on some duties, uh, if at all possible.

Uh, and then of course, at, at upon death, we can, [00:15:30] we definitely come in and, and, uh, start serving based on how the document, um. Wants us to serve, so, or we can execute the document as it's written. So it's, it's, I know it's a long-winded answer, but, you know, we, we, we can have a [00:15:45] hand in helping to kind of craft the document at the beginning, but then at the early onset of a situation that could be deemed incapacitation or, uh, terminal diagnosis of death.

Um, then we can, we wanna try to be brought in as soon as we can. [00:16:00]

Eric Wymore: You mentioned marketable securities is, uh, you know, one area that you guys serve as corporate trustee, but what are some of the other types of, uh, uh, of investments that, that you see on a, on a regular basis Yeah. That you become corporate trustees for?

Randy Kimmel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So when it comes to [00:16:15] the investment piece, we're gonna let you do what you do best, uh, when it comes to mutual funds, ETFs, whatever, uh, the strategy is with the clients, and you wanna continue that. Um, then that's great. Uh, depending on how the document is written. And, um, then we've got [00:16:30] those unique or specialty assets.

Uh, a lot of times we're seeing, uh, what I see a lot of are of course, primary residences, uh, real estate. Maybe it's the house where the kids grew up. Um, you've got the family vacation home, uh, or, or cabin someplace. [00:16:45] Um, in, in those. We can handle those, but they also have their own complexities. Um, then you've gotta work with the tangible personal property that's inside each of those, those homes.

Um, we've mineral rights, not a problem. I mean, we're, uh, uh, an institution that's [00:17:00] located here in the Midwest, so we have plenty of experience with oil and gas and, and, uh, uh, so not a problem when it comes to, uh, those type of assets, um, closely held businesses. There's a number of entrepreneurs out there that are doing quite well and quite successful.

[00:17:15] Uh, and so how do you work with. That into a, into an estate plan. And how's a corporate trustee come into, come into, um, uh, facilitate some of those over some of the oversight. Uh, when it comes to those, that particular type of asset, uh, we can walk through that with [00:17:30] the family as well. So, um, it's, it basically anything that is, uh, not publicly traded, um, we would be able to manage, uh, and administer under the umbrella of the trust.

Now the important thing to note there is when we [00:17:45] do that. It is a, there's a, a big team of people, especially our real estate team for instance, um, that's working with a trust officer, um, to manage this asset. But the great thing for the family is it's simplicity. They have two [00:18:00] people to reach out to. They can either reach out to you as the advisor or they can reach out to the trust officer.

Uh, but either way, it's a partnership. And so, um, regardless of what happens, you know, that, that. If you reach out to the advisor, they're gonna let the trust officer know what's going [00:18:15] on. If the, if the beneficiary reached out to the, uh, trust officer, then they're gonna communicate back with the advisor.

And so it really is a, a team effort when managing those unique and specialty assets.

Jeb Graham: Well, I'll tell you, uh, I know we're kind of coming toward. Toward our, uh, you know, the end of the [00:18:30] time period that we've allotted for this. And what I wanna do is just ask kind of one final takeaway question, which is, you know, what advice Randy, would you give a family when they're choosing whether to name a family member or whether to name a corporate trustee, uh, as, [00:18:45] as their, uh, trustee?

Randy Kimmel: Yeah, I think we've, we've touched base on that a little bit early on in the, in the, in the podcast. And so, um, it's. Number one, it's the time. Do does the individual have the ability and the time to, [00:19:00] um, to, to handle the workload that comes with this? Uh, it's also do they understand the fiduciary responsibilities?

It's, they get responsibility for reporting. They get responsibility for making proper distributions. Um, they, there's, there's, there's a lot that that goes into that. [00:19:15] Uh, and, and so they wanna make sure that they are surrounded with a good team. And, and that would be the attorney, uh, potentially a CPA. Um.

They need to understand the trust document and, and how to make distributions and make sure they're not favoring, you know, [00:19:30] one beneficiary over the other, that that becomes a challenge. Um, you know, corporate trustees we're. We are around. Um, so if, if something were to happen to, to me or someone on my team, someone else would be able to step up and take over and, and, and carry on [00:19:45] with an individual.

That's not always the case. Um, you know, we've had a situation before where a trustee, um, has, has fallen ill and has not been able to be very responsive to, um, the grandchildren of the grantor. And, and so they need these distributions [00:20:00] that they're unable to get them because of certain situations. So there's a lot of decision, uh, making, but I think ultimately it, it's, it's determining with the family, you know, what is the best option.

It's, it's interviewing those third party corporate trustees, you know, what can you do? What are some [00:20:15] solutions, you know, how can we still keep the family involved? Um, and, and we're more than happy to, to sit down with families and, and kinda work through all of that.

Jeb Graham: Well, very good. Well, I know us as financial advisors really appreciate.

Companies such as BOK, financial Advisor Trust Services. 'cause [00:20:30] obviously we have a lot of clients that we know are happy clients that we love working with. We know they love working with us and they wanna be able to continue working with us and they need that, that that corporate trustee. Uh, so we certainly appreciate, you know, organizations like yours and, uh, we've [00:20:45] had great experience working with you and we really appreciate you coming on today.

Uh, you know, to talk about this 'cause I think it's super, super important information to relate. And relay to our clients because, you know, it's like, well, when, when we meet with a client, we go through their financial plan, we go through [00:21:00] all this stuff, and a lot of times, you know, getting to end stages and death and all, and you know, who's going to run the estate, that a lot of times that's the kind of the secondhand conversation that a lot of times we might get in a minute or two at the, at the very end of the conversation.

But I think this is a [00:21:15] great way to relay this information to 'em and, and hopefully maybe. Kind of get the, get their minds moving around around that. So certainly appreciate it and um, this is Metcalf money moment signing off.[00:21:30]

Voiceover: Thanks for tuning in to Metcalf Money Moment, the podcast. We hope today's episode provided valuable insights to help you unlock financial clarity, confidence, and peace of mind. For [00:21:45] more expert advice and resources, visit medcalf partners.com. Until next time, make every money moment count.

Disclaimer: Jeb Graham, Ethan Hutchinson and Eric Wymore are [00:22:00] registered representatives with and securities offered through LPL Financial Member FINRA SI PC Investment advice offered through W CG Wealth Advisors, a registered investment advisor, W CG Wealth Advisors and Metcalf Partners Wealth Management is AR separate entity entities from LPL Financial.

The opinions voiced in this podcast are for general information only and are not [00:22:15] intended to provide specific advice or recommendations for any individual to determine which strategies or investments may be suitable for you. Consult the appropriate qualified professional prior to making the decision.

All performance referenced is historical and is no guarantee of future results. All indices are unmanaged and may not be invested into directly.

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