Alix Popham 0:00

It was the 16th of April 2020 that we call D Day. That was the day that we sat down in our lounge on the computer. And we were told of my my diagnosis.

Alex Melia 0:16

Welcome to stories of men beneath the surface.

I'm Alex Amelia. Join me, as we discover what it means to be a man in the modern era.

Sportsmen often pay a huge price to compete at the world class level, to stepping down make you a quitter, or could it save your life. Today we're hearing the story of Alex poppin, the former international rugby player who won 33 caps for Wales. Alex, his wife, Mel had been trying to get him to go to the doctor. She'd noticed some things about her husband that weren't normal. But he just put it down to the stress of being a busy working dad. Until one day when Alex decided to set out on a bike ride

Alix Popham 1:09

it's a loop that I've done many times from my house is beautiful ride into into the wild countryside. It was a dry, beautiful September afternoon and getting out enjoying the fresh air cycle usually with with other people. But this time I was on my own. I was cycling along this road that I can visualize now. I was coming out of us Town Centre. It's quite a fast road, smooth tarmac that hasn't been laid too long. I was like having feelings of do I go straight on? Do I turn right do I turn left, like carried on for maybe two or three miles out of us. And I got to a point where I didn't know where I was or which direction to go in. And then got to a point where I didn't know where I was, didn't recognize anything around me. Getting lost and, and having that blackout moment of not knowing where I was, was pretty scary. And full. My wife was quite upset at that time. She was at home. And I said look babes, I don't know where where I am, I don't know which direction I need to go to, to finish this loop. And she said, Well, just calm down. Take 10 Deep breaths. And hopefully, it'll come back to you. So I did that it didn't. And she said, Look, just cycle home the way you've just come cycle back towards us, and took a few minutes out of a big gulp of water. Then the cycle route home that I just come from. It was horrible. It was a feeling of a blankness almost that everything went went dark. And even though it was a sunny afternoon, my mood just changed from feeling confident. I usually go on a bike to be free to get out to my own thoughts. It was a horrible, horrible feeling, not knowing where I was and how I was going to get home. Not being in control of the way I was feeling. And the anxiety I was feeling of not knowing where I was, wasn't a nice feeling at all and never want to go back to the feeling like that again.

Alex Melia 3:35

So I liked what happened after that day on the bike,

Alix Popham 3:38

from that point of coming home pretty shook up actually now could see. I was upset and anxious. And she was like, right, we got to bring the GP. And then the following morning went to see my GP he arranged with my background of being a rugby player got me straight in for an MRI, and then also arranged neuropsychological testing. You're literally sat with a new or a psychologist for three hours sat in a chair. And by the end of it, it's as if you've played 10 games of rugby, your brain is absolutely shattered. So after all the test in the thorough testing that I've been through, I had a message from the assistant for the neurologist and said look, we and because of COVID we have to do it via zoom. And I said right, okay, there's my wife needs to be present. And she said yes, I think she does. The three or four hours before the call, seemed like days. It was the 16th of April 2020 that we call D Day that was the day that we sat down in our lounge on the computer and we were told of my my diagnosis. The neurologist said are you sat down mouse grabbed my hand and he said it's not good news, then explain him from what he'd seen in the in the different tests and scans and pull them up then onto the screen and show the five areas of damage on my brain that was caused from playing rugby. He believe that everything put together he diagnosed me with early onset dementia and probable CD. After he explains everything now ran out of the room and was sick. For me, it was a strange one almost relief that you could see damage actually on on the scans and, and the different symptoms I was struggling with and the problems I was having. There was a reason why. And it wasn't just all being made up in my, in my head

Alex Melia 5:49

control is a massive thing in men's lives. And when we as men, when we have this feeling of we've lost control is very disempowering, isn't it?

Alix Popham 5:58

Yeah, it is. But I try to in life in general, try and break it back to and simplify it and not overcomplicate it, and don't I mean, I tried to think then, that there's always somebody else in a lot worse position that even though we were dealt these cards, there's still always someone else, unfortunately, in a in a lot worse position. So it's not that bad, but actually what you're what you're going through, you've got a roof over your head, you've got food, you've got three amazing kids, you've got an amazing wife got an amazing family, you're lucky. And yes, you are being told you've you've got brain damage from playing rugby, but you could be dead, you could be like, I never struggled with any plank fully, like some of the ex players suicidal thoughts or, or anything like that. And I don't know, that's down to my, my, my way of thinking with regards everything's half full. And, and having that positive mindset, quite an have always been quite good. When a negative thought pops into my head, that I just chuck it out straight away, and don't allow it to snowball, and take over my, my thinking in lots of areas of my life. And I've always been that way. I know everybody is not in in that situation. But a line that I live by is control the controllables. And if you can, with that, with regards to setting the foundations of your diet, your exercise, the people you mix with, the people you talk to, I think that comes as you're getting older, that they're people who you were friends with when you were younger, but because they're negative, because they got a good vibe about them. You don't bother with as you get older. And I think that's something that you learn and mature as a person.

Alex Melia 8:08

I think that's really important. I'm the same actually, because on the flip side, don't try to control the uncontrollables because you're just gonna hold on to this. It's almost like the clenched fist sort of syndrome in your mind of, I want to see if I can control this, but some things are just so big, so large, like the issue within rugby, there's only certain things that you can do. And obviously you're doing great things work for head for change, but it's going to take time to be able to change these deeply rooted establishment that is in World Rugby.

Alix Popham 8:38

Yeah, 100%. And I think if you can park the things that you've got no control of, but still have your voice and your opinions and stand by them, then that's the best that you can do. And you've learned from from a young age playing well, I have play in sport, you you can't always win. But you can always do your best and as long as you're gonna look in the corny line, but look in the mirror and say that you've tried your best and you're you're still fighting. But that's that's all you can do really. Because I don't struggle with this a lot because of having being able to park something and move on in a positive way. I speak to lots of X players who can't do that. And because I not in that situation, it's difficult to see what they're going through but you've got to work with them and try and pull them out of the negative thoughts and situation that they're in I know has made a difference to with regards to their day to day life and and making the changes that need to happen.

Alex Melia 9:55

As you say mental health issues and suicidal thoughts are massive within the public. minimum of X players and and also current players as well. You talk about glass half full and and your positive mindset where does that come from? Why? Why is it the you're able to deal with situations, which to most people would just be so difficult to solve, but you're able to just kind of look upon it with a positive approach. And like we said before not allowing the negative thoughts to fester,

I it's difficult to answer that question I'd be I think, if you could bottle that I'd be a billionaire. And

is it your parents? Is it your environment thing?

Yeah, definitely my upbringing with with my grandparents, my mum and dad, my brothers, it was, it was always a you can achieve you can do something even when I had setbacks when I was younger and didn't get selected for teams. Right part of that, and where lots of people would have given up, I want to achieve my, my goals and a fortunate to be in a position that I've got the opportunity to, I believe you've got so many opportunities in life, and try to have that mindset. And be thankful what you have now. And not. Again, it's it's easy to say because I do it naturally. But don't overthink things. And enjoy the journey as much as possible, because you're in control. That was one thing after my diagnosis, where I was over committed to different things and trying to keep other people happy and go from one meeting to a coffee to a dinner. And energy was just all too much. For me, I pulled out of a lot of things that were making my diary, too hectic. And the most important thing. And you've got to be selfish in situations is my training is my diet is the kids, now my family. And in that order, I get my training done fertile, have a good breakfast, get my training done that was out the way then all the kids clubs and everything like that. And then off the back of that then you could see other people and, and have meetings and but if you put everybody else first and have the meetings and then in the back of your mind, you've got to think oh, I got a train. I've got to have some food. You're always chasing those things. And then you could come five, six o'clock at night and you're shattered from the day that you've had and you you don't bother training or you eat crap because the the food you have another enough good food in in the day. So I think if you can control those things and get up half an hour an hour earlier, that'll make a good foundations of starting your day. Well,

if you follow Jocko Willink, but he says discipline equals freedom. And I think that even as an ex professional now you've been so I suppose regimented in your training throughout your schooling days playing rugby all the way to being a professional, a Welsh International, it's very easy, I suppose. Or it's easier than the average person who's perhaps never trained on never had a disciplined approach to life to be able to keep that going. So you can get up an hour early, you can get up at 6am instead of seven 8am. Like, like the average person does. And I love this quote, like the chains of habit are too light to be felt until they're too strong to be broken. So if you've never trained and had that discipline, approach all your life and you get to your 40s and 50s, how do you then start to have this sort of discipline in your life was for you? It's it comes easier? Yeah,

definitely. But people would be trained and disciplined in something else be it? Why am I when they when they were in school was revising with so those habits in a different way, can be easily flipped, I think to, to put it into another direction and another discipline, like I'm training at the moment to do an Ironman. I'm not saying everybody's got to do that. But getting up in the morning, getting in the fresh air, getting the sunlight on your face, having your coffee in the in the garden, when the weather allows, and just starting the day well, makes a huge difference to what comes after.

Yeah, I noticed myself during the pandemic health, my mental health was starting to deteriorate and not over months or years, but just over a couple of days. And even if I don't have a couple of days, go into the gym or doing some form of exercise, I feel it immediately. And that was just kind of a wake up call for me to keep that. Keep that going keep that sport, keep that exercise even get outside as much as possible to be able to take advantage of the fresh air. It's just massive for your mental health.

No, definitely. And I think that was one thing from the pandemic that was a positive people appreciate what's on their doorstep and what's around them exercising, getting out using those things getting up in the woods and and just going for a walk and getting back into those habits and Being organized, being disciplined, getting your packed lunch your kit ready the day before, it was like when you were in school used to get your uniform and your books ready. And that can happen in in as an adult as well. And the more planned you are, before the day starts, the the better the day seems to unfold.

One thing I wanted to talk about with with your diagnosis, and obviously this is for a lot of X players as well is, is memory. And this is something I've been really following closely recently, because I don't know if you've seen the Alex Ferguson documentary never given. And the thing that he was most concerned about when he was in hospital was I do not want to lose my memory. I'm so scared of losing my memory. And actually, I watched even though I'm not a rugby fan, I did watch a video about a month ago of Steve Thompson. He's in his trophy room. I mean, you know, you've been successful when you've been a trophy room, I don't know if you've got that as well. But he could have looked at all these medals and all these trophies, I think it was Steve Thompson, I could be wrong. He looked at all of these trophies and medals, it looked at that I don't remember that. I don't remember that. I don't remember playing in that match. It didn't remember any of it. And this is a, this really highlights what massive issue that we're facing that from an from an outsider, like me, is really been brushed under the carpet. And the reason why I talked about this idea of memory is because it's very disempowering. And it's this sort of loss of control as a man that we talked about earlier on in the conversation that is so critical. And maybe it's not just for men, it's just for people in general, we don't want to lose our memory because we've got the happiness of now the momentary happiness, and we've got the memory happiness as well. And especially as an ex professional, you know, you can, all these amazing moments you had in your life, playing domestic rugby, playing international rugby, even honors that you had in school and and your your further education. You want to be able to remember those things.

Yeah, it's similar with myself, my actual playing days professionally. are not that great. I know I played for certain teams between for this many years. And I played in two worlds cups won a Grand Slam. One different cups are different clubs, but actual memories of being in the moment. And not there. Unfortunately. For me also. Yeah, again, if, if I and I don't want to think about that too much, because you start beating yourself up about and get sad on not being able to remember those things. Holidays and, and things like that I haven't got good memories, or I haven't got memories of of things happening. During a lot of my professional career. I've got memories of when I was a kid and holidays and playing for teams that at that age, but yeah, from most probably 1920 When my professional career took off, those memories are not really there. Which is very disappointing and quite hard. Were my two older kids and memories of them growing up, and not not that great, but I can't do anything about it. I'm just not a good drawer all of that. And yeah, it's you just got to take that on the chin.

It's interesting how you remember those childhood memories, because this is kind of before Ruby became big in your life. So is that probably the reason why you remember that?

Yeah, well, well, my understanding of all of this from my neurologist is, during my professional career, my brain was so inflamed all the time. You've got to remember it's a 1011 month season, you were playing, it was having contact after contact after contact. You would take him photos of what was going on. But because of the inflammation in your brain, you weren't storing them as memories. You had no film in the in the camera. And yet that's what was was going on with myself with Steve and I'm talking to the majority of the other boys their memories of playing are not there.

That's really worrying that and must be a difficult one, I suppose to to accept as well. I think acceptance is a big one. Yeah.

And before I had my diagnosis of when you were doing Q and A's or being interviewed about this for games that you played in, or I had no memory, I would, I would look at videos I'd look at photos i No way scored in that. But I've got no memories of them actually happening. I used to almost make it up to what happened to try and let the conversation flow. And then I don't I know, when I got my first cap, I know where it was, but I can't remember what time of day it was. It was a good night kick off a D kick off if it was raining. I've got I've got no recollection of lots of that. Like even my last game for Wales, was the grand slam year for Wales in a weight was at Twickenham. And in lockdown, they replayed that game. And it was it was as if I was watching it for the first time. I can't remember any like, you should remember the big tackles, you made the good runs. What the score was I got? I know we won the game, but I've got no recollection of of any of that.

I can't imagine how surreal that must be. To not remember those games that you played in. But you're watching yourself on TV. Yeah, it's almost like it was a different person. Yeah.

100%. And I got I got quite upset. I was watching it with with everyone. My three girls now we were watching it during lockdown. And it was a great day. Can you remember that? And I was like, no. But what what? What, again? What can you do? It's gone. That's what's happened. And you can't change it. And if you put too much effort, and and, and worry and no concentration into those feelings, then it will eat you up. And you'll maybe get depressed over having that and you can't dwell on it. Because it will cause more harm than what what's it going to change?

I completely agree. And I think that what's kind of the real overriding sort of feeling I'm taking from the conversation with you today is just this, this incredible positivity that you have about everything that goes on in your life. And, and I think that is clearly something you've trained yourself to do from from a young age. And it's it's obviously manifesting itself in all the things that you're doing now with headphones. Yeah,

yeah, I'm all over that. And, again, it's it's about being positive. And that has been a huge part in my life and will continue to be in the future.

I wanted to speak to you about concussions, because that's something that, again, we want to obviously highlight this massive issue around that. I've only ever had one concussion in my life. And I remember I was doing boxing sparring about 1214 years ago or something like that. And I remember this guy punched me right on the temple. And I remember having a massive headache for about two weeks didn't really know what what it was about didn't know about concussions. I think I was about 22 Something like that at the time. And every time I knelt down to tie my shoelaces, I could feel it right on the temple. And I realized afterwards that I experienced a concussion, but it lasted for two weeks. Are there any concussions that you remember having? And what kind of damage do you think it's had on you long term? Well, to start

with, I think we should call them what they actually are. And it should be called a traumatic brain injury. Because that's what's happened. A concussion softens what actually has happened. I think if you told a parent or your boys had a concussion, they'd be okay. But he's had a traumatic or she's other traumatic brain injury. It's a lot seems a lot worse than and that's exactly what it is. So I think a big part of all of this is the language people use. I didn't know what an actual concussion was. And what I've learned over the last two years, I found out because I always thought a traumatic brain injury slash concussion was where you were knocked out cold. That's what in my mind when I was playing was a concussion. 90% of concussions happen, where you're not knocked out. So when I was seeing stars almost every day when I was hitting contact when I was making tackles when I was being tackled being wiped out from rocks, and getting up or dazed, they are concussions, they are traumatic brain injuries. So the huge part of all of this is education, from grassroots all the way up to senior elite rugby and once you have one of those you have the correct rest and come back because that didn't happen when when I was playing, and it's still not happening to the best. Or the best it could be with with current players through the amateur game through school rugby and elite level players are rare. Back to quickly. So this is a big part of one of our pillars we've had for change is the education to push out what actually is a traumatic brain injury. But memories of me having traumatic brain injuries whilst I was playing, I've got no no memories of them. I know they happen because I've seen photos one was against South Africa. I met Nelson Mandela before the game and woke up in hospital. But I only know that happened. Because there's video footage of it. There's me coming off the pitch in a in a neck brace and on a stretcher. And then the second one I know happened was I knocked my two front teeth out playing for leads and woke up in the changing room. And they were the when I finished playing. I told myself, I only had to go concussions. And then speaking to other players that I played with, they said, What about that one? What about that one? What about that one, and I'm like, I've got no, no memories of any of those happen. But the feelings of having stars and feeling a bit dazed. And having some sniffing salts, that was just part of everyday being a rugby player. Everybody would would have those all the time. And we were told, unless you felt a bit sick, just carry on. If you felt sick, then you had to step to the side. But everything else you were just told to get on with it and get back in defensive line get back in the attacking line and carry on.

It always has this feeling of even though it's not said but just man up and just get on with it.

Oh, it was it was 100% that was that was would happen all the time in an analysis sessions. Unless your leg was hanging off. Unless your head was hanging off, you get back up and don't let the team down.

And it's got this macho element to it as well. Because you don't want to feel like you're wimping out as the you know, we're talking about language has power, the sorts of feelings because you don't want to have this sort of feeling of your teammates, teammates thinking, Oh, well, he's quit, he's not wanting to continue doesn't want to fight for the cause. And that has negative effects moving forward,

you just don't want to let anybody down. And that's drummed into you from from a youngster. They're your brothers beside you, and sisters in the female game. And if you stay down on the pitch, stay down on the floor, you're you're a player down. And ultimately, you're letting the team down. But this is where it needs to be taken out of the player's hands of coming off the pitch of how long they stay on the sidelines and don't return to action. Because at the moment, it's all play a lead on how they're feeling. And there's a step, I think a six step that they use to fit into six days, so you didn't miss a game. But it's all on how the player is feeling to the going up that ladder. And it should be taken out of the player's hand because the player doesn't want to let his teammates down, doesn't want to lose his spot is fighting for the next contract. And yeah, it's it's not the best thing for them and their brain. For the long term.

I'm thinking about sports men, elite sportsmen, there's so much pressure on them to not give in to not quit. If you think about boxers, they could have a detached retina in a fight. And if they quit, they're seen as I say, quit if they decide they don't want to continue they they're seen as they're less of a man what they're a quitter, they're a coward. They could go blind if they continue. But there's this sort of feeling from the armchair sports person. And also probably other boxes. And, and this is obviously not just boxing, but sports as a whole. Like, obviously, you're talking about rugby here, where you do have this massive pressure on you to continue but your health is massively deteriorated. These sports fans, they don't, they're not thinking about, you know, Alex popper man is in his 40s and 50s and 60s, with all of these health issues, they just cared about you being out there at that day in time in your peak years, but they don't care about later on. And you have to think about those things you have to look after number one,

none of these sports are going to be ever be 100% safe. If a if a boxer is Kayode my understanding on they can't fight or train for a minimum of 30 days in rugby with some loopholes and protocols that a player could be Kayode and play seven days later. It's just insane. What what is going on? And if you ask a player, they're gladiators Are you feeling okay to go back out there? Of course they're gonna say yes, nine times out of 10. But is their brain back to normal function? No, probably not.

Yeah, and it goes back to what we said. In a bit language has power. I am a gladiator is an identity thing. It's so strong and powerful to say I'm a warrior. I'm a gladiator gladiators don't stop playing just because they've been concussed. They are, as you said, traumatic brain injury, they keep going to keep going to keep going. But that language has to kind of be looked at and assessed because it's not helpful.