J Crutchely full interview

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[00:00:34] Imam Tariq: Join our growing community of learners today and support the work of Bayan Islamic Graduate School and the Muhammad Ali Scholarship. Go to bayanonline. org. That's B A Y A N online. org to get more information. Assalamu[00:01:00]

[00:01:06] Imam Tariq: alaikum. May the peace that only God can give you upon you. Welcome to the American Muslim Podcast presented by. I'm your host, Imam Tariq El-Amin, and it is my pleasure to bring to you another conversation with another leader, men and women who continue to answer the call to leadership, and they serve in a variety of ways.

[00:01:27] Imam Tariq: Today, we are blessed to have with us Sister Jacqueline Jackie Crutchley. Sister Jackie has served as program chair and board member for Women International Leaders of Philadelphia, as well as chapter lead and board member for Embrace. An organization dedicated to supporting converse to Islam, her diverse professional background spans roles as an account analyst, business development, consultant, and event planner.

[00:01:52] Imam Tariq: And how about this? She's also a descendant of a signer of the declaration of independence. [00:02:00] Today's conversation is in two parts. So without any further delay, here's our conversation. Hope that you enjoyed. How are you doing? rahmatullah. I'm good. How are you? Alhamdulillah. It is a pleasure to have you on.

[00:02:15] Imam Tariq: And I appreciate you taking the time. I know you wear many hijabs. So, one of the things that I love about this platform is the opportunity to have so many different conversations with, uh, Muslims who are, as I put it, who are responding to the demand for leadership. And that happens in so many different ways.

[00:02:37] Imam Tariq: Big ways, small ways, but it's always serving a need. And so I'm excited to have a conversation with you, not just about your experience at BAND, but. Really, to talk about who is Sister Jackie, first and foremost, it's not just about the work, but it's about the people doing the work. So, where does it all start for you?[00:03:00]

[00:03:01] Sr. Jackie: It starts in New Jersey. I'm a Jersey girl born and bred. And if you know, you know, and I'm unapologetic about it. I love where I grew up. I love where I'm from. And I grew up in a very loud Catholic family. I went to Catholic school. I taught CCD classes in high school. And we are also blended in that, like my father had Italian ancestry and Irish ancestry.

[00:03:26] Sr. Jackie: And from my mother's side, we have ancestry from the American colonial past. So I'm a descendant of a signer of the declaration of independence. And growing up with that and understanding that I didn't really get this idea of what privilege was. So I grew up in a very diverse area and I love that I grew up in a diverse area because it left me questioning.

[00:03:49] Sr. Jackie: So much, it left me questioning why are these unspoken rules between different people who look different and like, why is the lunchroom [00:04:00] segregated? And I, I was the type of kid that would sit with anyone. I, I learned Spanish in high school. I would hang out with different groups all the time and just try to understand where everyone was coming from and then.

[00:04:13] Sr. Jackie: That kind of led me to university where I did my undergrad and I say I got three useless degrees, but alhamdulillah those three degrees led me to Islam. I did it in sociology, cultural anthropology, and Spanish because what that gave me was an understanding and a vocabulary for what I saw growing up and what all the confusion I have because in school.

[00:04:38] Sr. Jackie: You just learn about institutionalized racism and Black History Month in terms of Martin Luther King and Washington Carver and you're good and you don't know anything about how it operates on a day to day level and how that affects interactions with human beings. And I was really drawn to those fields and I studied, I triple majored and I [00:05:00] did my senior thesis on infrahumanization, which is a method of ascribing animal, animal like qualities to human beings.

[00:05:08] Sr. Jackie: And that on, in terms of how it applies to race in the United States. That's a big thing. Let's pause just for a second. Sure. That's the first time I've heard of that. So number one, we're off to a wonderful start because these are always learning opportunities. So, could you say a bit more about that as a field and, and repeat the name of that again?

[00:05:31] Imam Tariq: Infrahumanization. Infrahumanization. Yes. It's a newer term. It was coined in the early 2010s, I think by a French sociologist named, his last name was Leyens. Uh huh. And so I found this extremely interesting, and this study extremely interesting on how Animal like qualities are ascribed to different race groups.

[00:05:56] Sr. Jackie: And then I wanted to connect that [00:06:00] to how people of color in the United States were being treated today. And that's, was a very interesting to me. It was because there is this profound having that diverse background and knowing where I came from a place of privilege and seeing sides of internalized racism that white people expressed.

[00:06:20] Sr. Jackie: Being friends with everyone in school, I'm like, I don't get this. Like, this doesn't make sense to me, like how the world is making us out for each other. Yeah. And I decided to study it and it, it reaffirmed, it gave me a language for it. And then when I was learning about Islam, it, and how anti racism is taught within Islam.

[00:06:47] Sr. Jackie: It's taught within the Quran. Now, our communities are a different story. We still got to work that out, but. You know how the Qur'an teaches about it and how the Prophet you know, honored everyone and [00:07:00] uplifted everyone and saw the value in everyone despite like their ability or disability or their color or their capabilities and what Allah gave them and intellect and that really hit my heart in terms of that Everything that I was seeing like this is right This is it's one of the reasons that led me to Islam that this Um, sense of like social justice that Allah made us equal in front of him.

[00:07:25] Sr. Jackie: Um, and that we are equally able to, and in talking also of gender, we're equally able to attain. I don't need a male to intercess for me. Like, that's something very different from patholicism. I don't need anybody to be the intercessor for me. I can speak directly to al ismar ta'ala. I can serve al ismar ta'ala the same as a man.

[00:07:47] Sr. Jackie: And I can be rewarded the same as a man. And that goes across the board of all humanity. And I found that extremely validating in terms of my values and my morals and the things in the world that didn't make sense [00:08:00] to me and that I wanted to contribute to making things make a little bit more sense. Now, listening to you, where you introduced your lineage, where you come from, you presented, you says, on my father's side, I have this and my mother's side have this, you didn't say it.

[00:08:21] Imam Tariq: I'm white. He said, I am, I have, what is it? Did you say it was Irish in there? Uh, Italian and Irish ancestry. And then you have a colonial ascendance, right? Um, and it just makes me think about how when Allah SWT tells us that he's created us as nations and tribes with these differences, not for us to despise one another, but to know one another.

[00:08:45] Imam Tariq: What is your perspective on that lack of nuance, the lack of language that really expresses who we are? In the public space and if that is something that you were aware of growing [00:09:00] up as a Catholic and maybe Catholicism has nothing to do with it, but was it something that you might've been aware of considering that you hung around everybody that you may have found in Islam?

[00:09:13] Sr. Jackie: Yeah, I think that's a beautiful point because not only were we made in nations and tribe, but we were made to compete in what is good, right? And so, how can you compete with what is good when some people have a leg up, right? And, and some people are competing against significant odds. And I didn't have language for that growing up.

[00:09:35] Sr. Jackie: That's what led to my curiosity. And like, even when it comes to whiteness, right? There's this kind of almost like either lack of obsession or obsession of like where you came from also as a white person, like that, perhaps like you're not diverse or there's nothing within your background that is worth celebrating because it's just the quote unquote norm.

[00:09:54] Sr. Jackie: And this in itself is a way to confuse people. It's something to confuse people. But if you. [00:10:00] And some people can't because they don't have access to that. I have access to that, is to give yourself the, the clarity of that confusion of what is whiteness mean? When you say Italian and Irish immigrants were not considered white when they first came to this country.

[00:10:16] Sr. Jackie: They earned that privilege either through violence that happened, right, or in the case of Italian immigrants, they got their government involved in Louisiana to, to basically say, if you don't treat Italians correctly, we're going to start a war. There's a lot of history and what does that mean? What does white, whiteness even mean?

[00:10:39] Sr. Jackie: And why is there this? confusion around it and that confusion around it is to keep us divided and not celebrating each other and our differences and not competing in what's good and understanding that some people are not able to compete at the same level because of the system that has been put in place in this country.[00:11:00]

[00:11:00] Sr. Jackie: And so part of. Understanding that lineage makes me also want to allow for our umma to place everyone at an equal level. Let's compete in what's good. Let's be just. Let's get this together. And so that's one of the things that I'm very passionate about. I participate in, like, anti racism halakas once a week.

[00:11:21] Sr. Jackie: And, like, I have some ideas that I want to, inshallah, explore after graduation to contribute to that. Because if anything. It should be in our communities, it should start with us and it's more doable to start with us because this sometimes it makes you feel powerless and we're not powerless because we have a los para tala and so we each got to chip away at it.

[00:11:45] Imam Tariq: Absolutely. I think about the statement and I wish I could remember exactly who said it, but it was a, um, a, a black woman scholar. She might have been an anthropologist. [00:12:00] Um, Who said something along the lines of how do you stand up straight in a crooked room? And I'm relating that to the acknowledgement. I was nodding as you were saying what the Quran, the Quranic commandments, injunctions, what it espouses for us in terms of how we are to see one another is not necessarily how it is played out in real life.

[00:12:24] Imam Tariq: And the real life is that crooked room that we are all living in and we're trying to stand up straight. Because we've inherited these systems of segregation, of degradation, of, tell me, what's the word? Infra Infrahumanization. Infrahumanization. We have inherited all of those things and they do have an impact on the way that we relate to one another, regardless of our, of our faith.

[00:12:52] Imam Tariq: Um, and, and even as Muslims, if we're not paying attention to those things, talk to us a bit about your work with the, [00:13:00] uh, anti racism Holocaust. So we just finished reading Islam and the Black American by Sherman Jackson. And his work, Marshal Lunt, it's like poetry, but it's dense and you have to read it.

[00:13:13] Sr. Jackie: Um, I don't think I would have been able to get through it if I hadn't been through several college classes, but it's, it was a beautiful thing. And so this is a group of Desi Americans, white Americans, black Americans. All coming together to talk about these works and to expand our minds in terms of like how we relate to the world.

[00:13:37] Sr. Jackie: And one of the questions I think that came up because I was summarizing chapter five, which was, there was some very beautiful conclusions that I'm just like keeping with me. But one of the questions that came up was like this kind of like feeling of hopelessness of what can we even do? What can we even do?

[00:13:57] Sr. Jackie: And I had to take a, a [00:14:00] pause and be like, this is what the system was designed for, is to make us feel helpless and to feel hopeless. And what we're doing right now is important. Like we're doing something, we're committed to one another. We're committed to seeing each other differently, to seeing each other on a more equal level because When it comes to internalized anything, internalized racism, this was one of the key points of that chapter, like even when it, any type of ism, right, he said, any sexism, Arabism, racism, that is you putting your soul on the line in front of a los parental, that's you putting your ignorance above.

[00:14:37] Sr. Jackie: Um, what Allah A'la decreed, and he connected it so beautifully, um, and it's something I wholeheartedly believed in, I was so happy to read it, is that this type of Internalization of being better than something else. This is the sin that Shaitaan committed. That's right. By saying, I am [00:15:00] better, I am fire and you are clay.

[00:15:02] Sr. Jackie: And so it is one of the most comfortable, yet divisive ways that are taking our Ummah away from Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. Hmm. Hmm. Because that is, we're designed to be comfortable in this space. And we're not supposed to be comfortable in space. And we should constantly be. Internalizing within ourselves so that we're not falling into that trap of shirk.

[00:15:28] Imam Tariq: Absolutely. Plain and simple. Absolutely. Shaytan, Iblis, before he was Shaytan, uh, he was the first racist. Right? Yeah, and he was ready to stand on that. With your upbringing, are there things that you can see now, right, as an adult looking back that were particularly formative for you, that led you to this decision to pursue three different degrees?[00:16:00]

[00:16:00] Sr. Jackie: I don't know if it was one particular moment, I just always, I think as a kid, now people see me and they see like this confident person, this person who's able to speak in front of crowds of people, and who is, you know, sure within herself, but as a kid I was very timid, I was very shy, I always followed the rules, I was a rule follower, I was afraid to break rules, of course.

[00:16:24] Sr. Jackie: My cousin made fun of me for it at a wedding, and I was like, oh yeah, that definitely was me. Um, but I was so confused all the time. I was just confused because I would just observe what's going on and try to relate to people and try to relate to the world. And there was just this constant confusion that really led me into wanting to study originally anthropology just to understand people in the past.

[00:16:49] Sr. Jackie: Um, and then when I discovered, um, cultural anthropology. That was, this gives me context for people in their present. And then the sociology gave me context [00:17:00] for how people react to each other within groups. And so it came to this full circle of giving this broad understanding about the social landscape and what's going on.

[00:17:11] Sr. Jackie: Even now, like studying Islamic leadership with Bayan and studying our ummah, taking classes with Zarina Graywell from Yale about the Muslim landscape in America. And her, mashallah, her mentor was Sherman Jackson. So it, it just comes this full circle moment of, yeah, these were things that. I noticed, and I can tell you when I first converted, I stayed away from the community.

[00:17:34] Sr. Jackie: I stayed away from the community for about a year and a half, before I got too lonely to come by myself, to come back into it, because I could see the problems. I lived in Philly, and Philly, mashallah, is special. I love Philly. Philly's great. It's a special place. Special, but the mishjids, they're all different.

[00:17:52] Sr. Jackie: They have all different ideas of what Islam is, they're segregated. You have your black masjid, you have your Sufi masjid, you [00:18:00] have your Salafi masjid, you have your Arab masjids, and it's very segregated. And people have different ways of actualizing Islam. And because of my upbringing and school and schooling in undergrad, I recognized that pretty quickly.

[00:18:16] Sr. Jackie: And so I stayed away because I wanted to keep Islam to myself. I wanted to protect my Islam and not have it influenced by these cultural factors that alhamdulillah, I was trained to perceive quickly. And so that was really helpful because it allowed me to build that foundation. So when I was ready to be in community, I didn't feel as heavily influenced by other people and their ideas of what is Islam.

[00:18:42] Sr. Jackie: And to this day, like, that's what I'm seeking. I'm seeking, like, true Islam. And inshallah I'll get there and continue to get there. That's a lifelong journey. And we all just need to humble ourselves to that. Shallah. Community, it definitely is a huge part. And [00:19:00] we are urged to be in community. I guess when we talk about social dynamics, especially when we have Different cultures, different backgrounds coming together, and not just different background, but different interpretations, right?

[00:19:14] Imam Tariq: The different schools of thought. And for white Muslims, what does it mean to be in those spaces that are multicultural, where people are trying to hold on to or assert their own cultural relevance or identity? Is that something that is a, a thought that is present in those spaces that I'm also bringing my full self and this is who I am, or is there a kind of a push to, to, to conform?

[00:19:50] Sr. Jackie: Yeah, I think that's a really good question and it speaks to converts altogether too. So I talk about this with a lot of different [00:20:00] converts. And perhaps it's different for someone who is Black who with their cultural background enters the community because there is a space. There is mushal law. I love going to Black mishads.

[00:20:09] Sr. Jackie: They are the most welcoming mishads. Uh, you know, like, I would say 110 percent that I feel very comfortable in those spaces. I hope that I am also a source of comfort in those spaces as well. So you do go to a lot of different ones. Converts in general, I think we go through this kind of like identity crisis of who am I and how do I become Islam?

[00:20:33] Sr. Jackie: And we forget that Allah Subh'anaHu chose us to be Muslim and he likes my laughs and he likes my loud voice and he likes my leadership abilities. And he chose me and what's not bad within me is good. Sometimes I think when you come into the religion. You do try to shrink yourself into somebody else's idea of what it means to be a good Muslim and what it means to be a good Muslim woman, [00:21:00] that I need to be softer, I need to be smaller, I need to shrink down, I need to be submissive.

[00:21:05] Sr. Jackie: And that's not the same in every community, but it's definitely something within a lot of communities. Holding on to that identity is really key. So this kind of, there is an expectation for conformity. I was in an Uber in Philly and I had a daisy driver and he said, what's your name? And I said, my name is Jackie.

[00:21:23] Sr. Jackie: And he said, no, what's your Muslim name? And I was like, I picked Asiya and he's like, that's your name. I'm calling you that. And in my head, I'm like, Jackie, my name has a great meaning. Like, I like funny names. So, um, I let him have that. He was very happy to meet me. Um, Alhamdulillah. I can, I, I didn't have enough time to explain that in the five minutes in our Uber rides.

[00:21:44] Sr. Jackie: That's another thing for another day when I'm teaching new Muslim classes or doing convert sensitivity workshops and things like that. But There is a, there is an expectation for conformity, and what we need to question is what are we conforming to? Is it [00:22:00] Islam? Or are we conforming to other people's cultural expectations of what Islam is?

[00:22:07] Sr. Jackie: Whenever I go to teach, whenever I go to speak, I always wear convert women designer clothes. I'm like, I'm, I, this is me, I'm not showing up. And I like wearing a bias, they're comfortable, I'm gonna wear them to the mission, but when I show up as a representation of what a convert is, I'm gonna show you what that looks like to me.

[00:22:26] Sr. Jackie: And I'm representing that. And I'm gonna talk about identity and I'm gonna talk about these things, these expectations you guys, that you guys, our community puts on converts to conform. That's a poignant question and something super relevant to what we're going through today as a community. And the fact that there's.

[00:22:44] Sr. Jackie: 25 percent of Muslims are converts and, um, half of those converts are black converts. So if we're not taking care of all of our communities, if we're not taking care of our black communities, we're not taking care of our convert communities. Another thing specifically with being a [00:23:00] white convert is you are past the mic pretty early.

[00:23:02] Sr. Jackie: The minute I entered the community, I was put in a leadership position. I was not ready for that leadership position. I was terrified of that leadership position. And it's one of the reasons that I ended up going to BAN, because I had this huge responsibility of caring for other converts and for speaking on their behalf.

[00:23:21] Sr. Jackie: And no matter how much knowledge I got on my own, that didn't, you know, it didn't weigh out with the responsibility. Inshallah, it's never going to weigh out with the responsibility. I'll have to always continue to seek knowledge, but that was. Just a prime example of what happens with, in comparison, like white converts versus our Latino converts versus our black converts versus our Asian converts.

[00:23:45] Sr. Jackie: Like when it comes to white converts, we're sometimes held up on a pedestal or fetishized and that takes away from also our experience as a Muslim. Um, and it doesn't give us the [00:24:00] time to develop our identities as well. And I think I see a lot of people conforming a little bit too quickly. I was going to ask about this, but you jumped right into it at the very end of your response there.

[00:24:14] Imam Tariq: And that is the reality of tokenization. And I think as an African American, as a Black American Muslim, I can relate to that experience and in certain spaces where, Oh, let's call, let's get the Blackie map. And put him on our board, but let's not listen to him. Right. Exactly. But I think more importantly, as we see this conversion that is taking place, this ripple of Islam is, it is spread, it is spreading out over time and we become much more representative of that.

[00:24:52] Imam Tariq: Diverse UMA that we imagine when we hear, I've created U. S. nations and tribes for you to get together, to complement [00:25:00] one another in your competition. What does it mean to really be aware of the impact of the internalized white supremacy that can lead to that type of tokenization that undercuts or it gets in the way.

[00:25:19] Imam Tariq: The real maturation and development of our community. Um, do you have any thoughts on that? Internalized, the internalized white supremacy, I think simply put is like when our community sees a white convert. They're like, mashallah, they found Islam and they're, they're so great. They're so great. They, they took away from the dunya.

[00:25:43] Sr. Jackie: They left this dunya that was made for them and now they're Muslim. And of course there's challenges with being a visibly Muslim woman that I did not have as a white woman. But then when they see a black Muslim, a new convert. It's almost internalizes, Masha'Allah, Islam [00:26:00] saved them. That's what we need to fight internally.

[00:26:02] Sr. Jackie: Because our brothers and sisters, no matter who they are, can contribute to this probably more than I can. These brothers and sisters that we're overlooking, and we're looking at almost a burden, or that Islam saved them, could be the person that saves your kid from leaving the deen.

[00:26:26] Sr. Jackie: And I think that's probably the quickest representation of what I could say is that kind of internalized white supremacy within our community when it comes to converts. So I know we got limited time and I want to throw as much at you to get your responses, um, as we can in that limited amount of time.

[00:26:44] Imam Tariq: Number one, I definitely want to hear your thoughts on leadership, uh, your, your philosophy, what you hope to bring from it. Or what, what you hope to bring to. Uh, leadership, and I'll stop there. I want to hear [00:27:00] from you. Sure. So my philosophy is like definitely servant leadership role. I take leadership as a responsibility.

[00:27:07] Sr. Jackie: I think everyone should take leadership as a responsibility. We get a lot of people who go, you shouldn't seek leadership, especially as a woman. You shouldn't put yourself in these positions. And I agree because they are a responsibility. And if you're not ready to take on that responsibility, you should not.

[00:27:23] Sr. Jackie: Um, but if I am the most qualified person in the room, I'm going to say, Hey, these are my qualifications. For example, when we started a chapter in Embrace in Pennsylvania, we had a discussion about who was going to be the lead. And so the brother automatically goes, I'll, I'll do it. And so I said, can we get to know each other a little bit more?

[00:27:43] Sr. Jackie: Let's, let me know your background. Let's talk about each other. So there's about three or four of us. And they, we start talking about our background and I explain, I founded a nonprofit right out of college. These are my degrees. This is what I work in right now. I'm on the board of several organizations and they [00:28:00] go, we think you should do it.

[00:28:02] Sr. Jackie: It was like, okay. And I appreciated that they were able to recognize that. And so one thing that women in leadership shows is they, it shows that there is this almost like the equalization, like we get everybody's. Uh, opinions, we want to see what everyone is bringing to the table to, to make things happen.

[00:28:21] Sr. Jackie: And so, there's automatically better decision making, there's a lot of more collaboration. And so, if I am not the most qualified person in the room, I want to sit down. I'm not gonna, I'm gonna let somebody else take that lead. But if I am, and if I get put into that position, what I want to do is empower everybody around me to do what their talents allow them to do.

[00:28:47] Imam Tariq: And so, that doesn't mean that I take a step forward, that means that I Empower others and it's the same of how I got on the podcast, right? Mashallah, we're going to have a Ramadan series and I [00:29:00] volunteered these three beautiful Muslima women to give their perspectives and I was like, I'm taking a seat, sit back.

[00:29:06] Sr. Jackie: I'm going to help in the background and coordinate and do the admin tasks. And I want to see you guys shine. And then, uh, I got pulled into participating anyway. But Mashallah, that's, that's how I look at it. I think that as a leader, it's your job to support the people that you've been entrusted to. And so it's a support role for me.

[00:29:29] Sr. Jackie: And I think that more leaders should really take it as that responsibility and that support role. It's almost like a marriage. Like what is the responsibilities of husband in a marriage? He's supporting, he's taking care of the. You know, everything, the emotionals, the finance, the logistics, you're making sure your family can thrive.

[00:29:45] Sr. Jackie: And so my ummah is my family and I'm not being masculine. I'm just saying like when I'm put into that role, I'm there to serve them. And so I think that that's the role of leadership within our ummah. You alluded to this. Tell us a bit [00:30:00] about the context of those three Muslims that we'll be speaking. And your leadership role with, with BAYAN's student committee?

[00:30:08] Imam Tariq: The student, yes. So we have a BAYAN student committee. And the BAYAN student committee came out of a need and a desire for BAYAN students to have a little bit more autonomy in how we start relating to the world and to this country. We wanted to show everyone how wonderful this program is and how much we've learned and how much it's preparing us to be better leaders, to be better chaplains, to be better.

[00:30:33] Sr. Jackie: Uh, community members and so unlike a lot of institutions, BAN actually empowered us in this process and so we were able to make a BAN student committee and the student committee allows for us to promote the student experience and to talk to community members. And any donations made to the student committee, 100 percent go to continuing these types of full scholarship and scholarship [00:31:00] programs.

[00:31:00] Sr. Jackie: Many of us work full time. We can't afford to get a master's, but this is the future of our careers. Chaplains, they don't get paid very well. You are helping fund somebody's career that they're going to be giving so much communal benefit. They allowed us to have a voice in decision making and ethics as well, and that was very important to us, and a lot of institutions would not allow that.

[00:31:24] Sr. Jackie: So as a student committee, they also have allowed us to have a representation on the board so that we have the voice with those who are making decisions and policies for students. And so we really appreciate Bayan in allowing for having this student committee, allowing us to empower ourselves to share our stories and to contribute for those who have other talents to contribute to the legacy of Bayan and the continuation of Bayan.

[00:31:51] Sr. Jackie: And that leads me to these three wonderful, mashallah, muslimah sisters that I get to have the pleasure of [00:32:00] calling friends. You guys are going to get to know Amanda Hessen. And she is also a white convert to Islam, and she has this beautiful blended family. And she is absolutely a marvel. Six children, and going to band full time, and really trying to internalize that within her own life, and within her own family, and doing that work on the ground.

[00:32:22] Sr. Jackie: We also have sister Hazel, or Osteda, Hazel Gomez. Masha'Allah. And you've interviewed her before. She's beautiful Mexican and Puerto Rican Muslim American. And she has done so much for her community. She works in bail reform and recidivism. She is a teacher at Rabata. She is, masha'Allah, I've gone to events with her.

[00:32:46] Sr. Jackie: And she wasn't supposed to speak, and they gave her a mic, and this girl had a, like, a halakha, a speech ready, like, mashallah, I was like, that was just on your heart, and you didn't prepare for it? She's a [00:33:00] wonderful human being that I get the pleasure. And last but not least, we have Dr. Kai Horne Alamin, our sister Sophia.

[00:33:08] Sr. Jackie: As she goes by, she's also incredible. She does community gardening programs. She's already a professor at a university who teaches about different Islamic and Christian studies. She went back to get a master's for Islamic studies. She's One of the smartest and most thought provoking women that I've ever met.

[00:33:28] Sr. Jackie: I love talking to her and picking her brain and having those catch up conversations. I'm really excited to hype these girls up and for everybody to get to know them as well because each of them have such beautiful and redeeming qualities. Our community needs and that our community needs to hear. Hmm.

[00:33:45] Imam Tariq: Alhamdulillah. , I cannot wait for that conversation and for all of the great work that's going to come out of the, uh, student committee. It is certainly needed, and I think this is in line with the mission of this platform as well. It's to highlight [00:34:00] just a wide array of expressions of leadership and how that leadership is not self serving.

[00:34:07] Imam Tariq: It's a leadership that is for the benefit of humanity. It's for the benefit of this nation. So if the UMA gets it right, then America will get it right. Give me your thoughts on this, based on this unique aspect of your ancestry, right, that you have someone. Who's a signer of the Declaration of Independence , in your family.

[00:34:27] What comes along with that?

[00:34:30] Sr. Jackie: Growing up, eh, we used to do heritage projects in school and I was blessed to have all of that information ready for me. On my dad's side, we have a genealogy website dedicated to that side of the family, and then as a qualifying member for the Daughters of the American Revolution, we have a lot of information about our ancestors on that side.

[00:34:55] Sr. Jackie: There was always a sense of responsibility that came with that. That sense of [00:35:00] responsibility was a little bit different for me than others, because there's also a sense of almost shame growing up understanding the colonial history of the United States. It took me a while to even look into my ancestors.

[00:35:13] Sr. Jackie: Were they enslavers? And they were. And so coming to terms with that, this is, there is this one side of being a An ancestral legacy of the quote unquote American dream and constitutional landscape and starting this nation and all of the things that they teach you in school and the good things that come with that.

[00:35:36] Sr. Jackie: But also being a part of the atrocities and the tragedy and the pain of slavery in this country. And so it took a while to come to terms with those two things, but there was always this responsibility in terms of this is where I came from and I need to carry [00:36:00] that in a way that's authentic with me. And for me, that is understanding that as someone with this quote unquote, I'm saying quote unquote because we have native persons, a lot of people who built this.

[00:36:15] Sr. Jackie: American legacy, but as someone who has this quote unquote American legacy, and where is my responsibility in holding this country accountable to the values that it teaches us that when we're kids that aren't quite aligned with our history. And so that I think is the best way to be a patriot, is to hold the country accountable for those values.

[00:36:41] Sr. Jackie: The values that it says it believes in, and equality for all human beings, regardless of race, and also freedom of religion and expression of that. And so I brought that into my experience as a Muslim.

[00:36:57] Imam Tariq: So one of the things that is central to [00:37:00] Islam is the idea of repair, right? When a harm is done, it is to repair, but it's also very clearly gives a bit of a license and.

[00:37:11] Imam Tariq: I think takes some of the burden off of the individual saying that we don't place any burden on a soul greater than its capacity to bear, or we don't test a soul beyond its ability, to bear that test or, or pass the test. So we're able as individuals to feel a sense of responsibility for ourselves and how we navigate the realities that we're brought into without necessarily taking on the burden of, well, that was me.

[00:37:41] Sr. Jackie: Absolutely. When my undergrad, I read an article about how white guilt is useless in terms of helping with repair. I brought it to class and my professor looked a little bit shocked. She's like, let me see that. And she looked at the author. She's like, okay, this is fine. This is a good thing. I was a little worried that I had [00:38:00] come across a harmful concept, but Hamdulillah, I, I had it.

[00:38:03] Sr. Jackie: And so that kind of helped. Let go of like, okay, this is a legacy that I bear, but it's not my future. And it's not who I am going forward. And I have nothing to be defensive about. I have nothing to be upset about when it comes to that. However, I have a responsibility as a human being to make sure that I am checking myself in my own internal biases so that I'm not doing harm onto other people.

[00:38:29] Sr. Jackie: And that I think. That's a beautiful Islamic concept that we need in the masjids, we need in our communities that we are doing that internal self reflection. When we enter the masjid, we are removing those internal biases and that's a lifelong thing. Everybody is biased, right? Maybe you're biased against old people driving.

[00:38:50] Sr. Jackie: Maybe you're biased against masjid. Everyone has their own internal biases, but the thing is, in this country, It is [00:39:00] so easy to have that racial bias and to act in a racist way that is harmful to people because it's normalized. And so that's where our responsibility is as Muslims when it comes to bearing this legacy and involving ourselves within the American landscape to do that internal work so that we're not causing each other harm.

[00:39:22] Imam Tariq: Yeah, I like to say that we're not responsible for what we inherit. But we are certainly responsible for what we produce, for what we leave. So tell me, are you the only Muslim in your family or are there other Muslims?

[00:39:36] Sr. Jackie: Yeah, I am the only Muslim in my family right now. Insha'Allah there'll be more, but it's just me.

[00:39:42] Sr. Jackie: Can I ask

[00:39:43] Imam Tariq: how your family responded to you accepting Islam?

[00:39:49] Sr. Jackie: My family, they responded in, it wasn't the worst that I've heard, but it's definitely not the best. , I actually started [00:40:00] practicing Islam a couple of years before I converted. So I was wearing hijab for a year before I converted. I was doing Ramadan three years before I converted.

[00:40:08] Sr. Jackie: Part of me was like, if this is a perfect religion, then it should be doable. And so if it's doable, then what the Quran says that it transcends all of time and all of these commands that Allah gave us, he'll make it easy for me to do it because I'm the type of person, if I commit to something, I really want to commit to it.

[00:40:30] Sr. Jackie: I make a plan and I don't want to do it halfway. So that scared me. I was like, do I have 30 minutes in the day to pray extra in my life? Like, it seems like I barely have 10 minutes or. Is fasting for an entire month realistic or is me dressing modestly in this country realistic and, and quitting drinking or other things that are so normalized.

[00:40:53] Sr. Jackie: And that was a big thing. Cause I feel like more of the things that I couldn't do upset my family. [00:41:00] I, yeah, the things like drinking, not as much anymore back when I converted eight years ago, cause now there's this sober movement of like, have your wellness cocktails, which I'm very grateful for. But before that, drinking is almost as American as 4th of July fireworks and apple pie.

[00:41:21] Sr. Jackie: So that was a big deal. These things that I couldn't do was almost like I was going against my family and their culture and how they feel we should be together. And so they would make a lot of comments. They still do sometimes make little comments here and there. It was very difficult for them to accept.

[00:41:42] Sr. Jackie: I tried to ease into it. I was trying to be a little bit patient where I think some people just go gung ho and they're like, I'm Muslim now, I don't do anything, I'm not gonna hang around you, even if you're drinking, I'm not going to do this. I kind of tried to ease into it, and eventually, they would be [00:42:00] like, Okay, we're having family dinner, but we're not going to drink because Jackie's coming.

[00:42:03] Sr. Jackie: Or, I got halal meat so that Jackie can eat what we're eating. And things like that. It took some time showing. A lot of patience and respect and showing them that I'm the same person, even though I look different and have different habits now, to get to a better place. And I'm proud to say that we're very close today.

[00:42:24] Sr. Jackie: Alhamdulillah. And you know. Their family and I love them, so we all get on each other's nerves, but I was able to maintain those ties by being understanding and being gentle and trying to ease in with them and recognizing where maybe I was pushing too hard and trying to repair from there. Yeah,

[00:42:42] Imam Tariq: because that is a huge shift for a lot of people, especially as you mentioned, there are so many things that are normalized that people don't pay attention to until the people around them stop doing those things.

[00:42:55] Imam Tariq: You know, alcohol and gambling are just absolutely normal [00:43:00] in society.

[00:43:01] Sr. Jackie: Yeah, it was a family tradition to put, what is it? Lottery tickets in people's birthday cards. Right. And so I'm like, guys, I'm not participating. I will not buy the lottery tickets. I will not share the cost. Please don't give them to me.

[00:43:15] Sr. Jackie: You know, this was a normal part of everyday life for us for so long.

[00:43:20] Imam Tariq: You said that you were practicing for over a year, right? But you said before you actually converted, so make the distinction for me, because you were fasting, you were wearing hijab, uh, were you making Salah?

[00:43:37] Sr. Jackie: I was praying, I did it eased in, so I started with Fajr and then I would like slowly ease myself into the five prayers, but I didn't get fully into that five prayers till after I converted, but yeah, I started praying.

[00:43:49] Imam Tariq: So what's the delineation for you? So, because in your heart at that time, when you're fasting, you're making the Fajr, at this point, you're In your heart, you've already said, you know, there's no God, but Allah [00:44:00] Muhammad is his messenger.

[00:44:01] Sr. Jackie: No, not yet. Cause I was like, I can get on the whole, there's one God, right?

[00:44:07] Sr. Jackie: Cause, and even though I grew up Catholic, in my mind, I'm like, nobody really believes in like the, it's not like the full trinity. It's like, God's at the top. And like, there's these other things, you know, like the way they taught us, it wasn't like, as, you know, like Jesus is God, as most people think. So I didn't never really believe that even as a kid.

[00:44:26] Sr. Jackie: And so I was like, I can get behind like the one God thing. I don't know about this Mohammed guy.

[00:44:32] Imam Tariq: I

[00:44:32] Sr. Jackie: was still learning about him, like all the stereotypes that you hear. So it took me some time to like find love for the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam. While I was weeding through all the misinformation and trying to understand how groundbreaking it was for his presence during this time period in Arabia.

[00:44:50] Sr. Jackie: That was a hard pill to swallow. At that time, I was just thinking, I believe in one God, so regardless of if I'm praying this way or I'm praying the way that I prayed as a [00:45:00] Catholic, it's the same God. And during Lent, which right now we're in the season of Lent, Lent used to be a full fast just as Ramadan was.

[00:45:10] Sr. Jackie: It used to be a full dry fast for 40 days, not a month. Even before that, as I was exploring Islam during Lent, I would start to fast on Fridays, like a full fast, to test the waters in fasting because I saw that kind of interconnectedness in terms of the practices. So either way, I was like, this is me trying to find the truth and connect with my higher power.

[00:45:34] Sr. Jackie: And so, and then Allah led me to him through this practice, through just trying to get closer to him. I accepted Islam as truth.

[00:45:45] Imam Tariq: So it was the physical practice that helped to build up the opening of the heart.

[00:45:54] Sr. Jackie: And I think when you talk to Sister Hazel in the last episode, she talked about how there's all [00:46:00] these many moments in your shahadah story.

[00:46:01] Sr. Jackie: So I have a shahadah story for a lot of different things in terms of what led me to Islam because it's never one full thing. One of those things is practice. Practice definitely led me to. Islam. Another thing was heartbreak and loss. I was going through a divorce at the time and I had lost my job. And a lot of friends and my family kind of were like, she's weird.

[00:46:24] Sr. Jackie: Why is she wearing hijab? Everyone was kind of distant at that time because I started practicing before I actually became Muslim. So I got to experience that loneliness even before converting. The closer I was getting to Islam, the further away I was getting in my marriage. My husband and I had separated and I made duat to Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala.

[00:46:47] Sr. Jackie: I gave my heart to somebody and they didn't take care of it. You take it. I felt this instant relief of surrendering and offering my being to [00:47:00] the higher power and to God. That is such a hard lesson to learn because so many times. We as Muslims don't realize that we are placing people, money, our jobs, our other responsibilities above Allah's power to Allah.

[00:47:16] Sr. Jackie: And it was subhanAllah, the first lesson that I learned is that if Allah isn't first in your heart, everything will fall apart. But when you put Allah first, you have that kind of inner peace. And that was the moment I was, that, the, that exact moment I was ready to take shahada. And I called my friend and I said, Hey, you know, your dad's an imam.

[00:47:38] Sr. Jackie: Let's do this. Let's take, I'm ready to take that step. Even then when I met with him, her family was planning a party and I met with him before and he's like, just take it now. What if you die? And I was like, I want to make sure my heart is clean when I take that Shahada and I'm preparing myself mentally.

[00:47:58] Sr. Jackie: And if I die, I hope that Allah [00:48:00] knows. That I'm working towards the path towards him. So I did not take my Shahada that day. He accepted that. He was like, if you want to wait for the party, I was like, I don't care about the party. You got to have a party.

[00:48:12] Imam Tariq: Oh, they were having a party. Oh, that's awesome.

[00:48:13] Imam Tariq: Yeah, they were having a party

[00:48:15] Sr. Jackie: for me. And I was like, I don't need the party. I want to make sure that I'm in the right head space when I come and I take that Shahada, I don't want to just take it right now. and not understanding the responsibility that I am putting upon myself and not fully ready to commit to Islam and to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and to this lifestyle.

[00:48:36] Sr. Jackie: He accepted that and encouraged me to take that time. Eight years later, alhamdulillah, I'm still here and inshallah I'll still be here because we know that a lot of converts do end up leaving the religion. It's potentially around 7 out of 10 who enter who leave, uh, and I think that Taking it seriously really helped me in those difficult times of faith that [00:49:00] I had put all of this work into making sure that this was my truth and this was the truth that I believed.

[00:49:06] Sr. Jackie: So,

[00:49:06] Imam Tariq: yeah. It's interesting that you mention that number, seven to ten years or maybe somewhere in between where people who convert leave, right? We've seen that and sometimes it doesn't take seven years. Sometimes it's, two years, six months. What I've personally seen is a lot of times that's related to a lack of support, a lack of affirmation, of really just not feeling included.

[00:49:32] Imam Tariq: And would you say, I know we're talking eight years has gone by now, in addition to your own personal networks, has Bayan played any part in providing a sense of community that has made you feel more grounded?

[00:49:53] Sr. Jackie: Yeah, so seven out of ten converts leave Islam. My prediction is exactly what you said. [00:50:00] It's closer to probably within the first year to four years that people will leave.

[00:50:04] Sr. Jackie: I see a lot of times once you make it past that four year mark, inshallah, you're smooth sailing. You might have imam dips up and down, but you're here. When it comes to the community that BAYAN has, the beauty of it is We have these hybrid weeks and you get to meet with all of your classmates in person and I feel like I learn just as much, if not more, from my classmates than my teachers and that I'm able to build that sense of community with them in such a short period of time.

[00:50:38] Sr. Jackie: So now we have text groups, we have, Telegram. We contact on a regular, almost daily basis, whether it's for our classes or the student committee we formed, or just in general, if I'm going through a hardship, whether it's school or personal, I've had sisters reach out to me just to talk and make sure I'm okay.

[00:50:57] Sr. Jackie: Wish me a happy Ramadan. And [00:51:00] there's that really beautiful sense of community of people that I think I've built. Inshallah lifelong relationships with and they're absolutely incredible human beings that are involved in the community So it's this beautiful network that If I need anything in terms of the landscape of what's happening in American Muslims and Islam, I can call somebody who is an imam in Detroit or connect someone to Adams Center for a military position.

[00:51:30] Sr. Jackie: There's this powerful network of people we can lean on and ask questions and connect across the country. They're all super involved in their communities. And I think that's pretty incredible.

[00:51:42] Imam Tariq: I don't know if I asked you this. And for our listeners, this is actually part two, we had to come back because we just left so much on the table.

[00:51:53] Imam Tariq: When we think about what it means to do good for humanity, let our work contribute to the [00:52:00] legacy of uplifting humanity. Is there a particular aspect of your work, your leadership, or even what you aspire to do? that contributes to that idea when Allah tells us, I've raised you up as a nation for the benefit of humanity.

[00:52:18] Sr. Jackie: Yeah. So in my day to day, I work doing grants management for cancer research. I find that very rewarding because you're contributing to helping people with a sickness and an illness. When I see one of our grants being published in the New England Journal and having full remission of a specific cancer.

[00:52:37] Sr. Jackie: That makes me feel like I have contributed to something. But when it comes to the American Muslim landscape, I do like to be involved with the convert, , space. So that's how I started serving. That's how I started, realizing that I had this responsibility and that led me to Islam is, , being that support person [00:53:00] for converts, being in BAYAN has kind of changed how I approach that.

[00:53:03] Sr. Jackie: We have new Muslim classes and I've updated materials because of our Kalam class and I was like there's another way to look at this that someone might be able to grasp onto that would make sense to them and that they could carry with them on their journey when things get hard. And when I look at taking our Islamic law classes, the same thing.

[00:53:24] Sr. Jackie: When I'm talking to converts, it's easier for me to relay, information and show them where is their gray area? Where is their black and white? Because a lot of times converts are so set on what is the halal and the haram. What do I have to do? And what do I not have to do? And a lot of times that answer is.

[00:53:45] Sr. Jackie: It depends, or what's your situation, or let me connect you to a shaykh, and that can be really frustrating for people, because they're like, I just want to do right, and they have this anxiety that's there, and so I'm a lot better equipped to deal with those anxieties, and with those types [00:54:00] of questions that come up, because of the classes that I'm able to take with Bayan, on top of that, in working with converts across the U.

[00:54:07] Sr. Jackie: S., and teaching these classes, I am also a grant writer. I work with another convert sister, and we both help write grants for Muslim organizations that are doing good. We're currently working with another company called Zayla, which is by American Muslim convert Lisa Vogel, that employs refugees in Turkey, Uyghur refugees, and then also, Inshallah, opening a factory in Jordan to employ Palestinian refugees.

[00:54:36] Sr. Jackie: To make clothing, and the whole point is to empower women from start to finish. So even the employees in the United States will be survivors of domestic violence. It's a company that is, happens to be a non profit, where every profit that they make is going right back into empowering women. And, and Muslim women for the majority of that.

[00:54:58] Sr. Jackie: That's awesome. [00:55:00]

[00:55:01] Imam Tariq: May Allah reward you for all of your work and increase you,

[00:55:04] Sr. Jackie: Inshallah. Inshallah, and more projects once I graduate. I have a lot of ideas.

[00:55:11] Imam Tariq: What's graduation date?

[00:55:13] Sr. Jackie: April 2025, so at the end of this year.

[00:55:17] Imam Tariq: I remind you that over 70 percent of Bayan students are scholarship recipients. So you can go to bayanonline.

[00:55:24] Imam Tariq: org and make a donation to the Muhammad Ali scholarship. While you're there, go ahead and get yourself a subscription to Bayan On Demand. We've got 30 classes, we're adding more, and it's just 10 a month. Get your subscription, join our community of learners, and remember we will see you next week.

[00:55:42] Imam Tariq: Inshallah. I leave you as I greeted you. Assalamualaikum. May the peace that only God can give be upon [00:56:00] you.