This is called alternative education. What we've come to realize, and many homeschoolers have come to realize, that alternative education is locking a kid in a freaking classroom with 30 strangers for eight hours a day. That's alternative. There's nothing natural there. The critical thinking I think is the most important thing and being able to make their own decisions, look into things themselves. not take everything at face value. There's gonna be more and more homeschooled kids in the next 10 to 15 years So for anybody that's contemplating this, it's, very important to understand that you've got to do a lot of de schooling and unprogramming of your. Own.

Welcome Bitcoin homeschoolers. Talia and I are always thinking about how we can give back and we're not coders. We can't make wallets. We're not financial analysts. We're not gonna write a book on the history of money. But we do have over two decades of homeschooling. We believe very strongly in the separation of education state and the self custody of education. And the whole purpose of this Bitcoin Homeschooler podcast is to serve as a vehicle for us to help give back. Part of that Is hearing other points of view and other experiences and today we are blessed to have Daniel and Claire Prince and talk about proof of work. These guys are world schooling, they have written a book called Choose Life about it, and we cannot wait to get into it. So, guys, welcome.

Thanks for having us on. Great to be here.

Alright, my thought is maybe we start off the conversation, assuming that people have not read your book. Could you just give a little bit of background on like your, your path on where you are that I think just to help ground things for the audience.

ground things

Yeah, absolutely. We started this journey into homeschooling, world schooling, unschooling, self directed education, uh, all of the above. Because they all kind of like merge into one thing back in 2014, March, 2014, we, we left their old life behind. We were living in Singapore at the time. We sold pretty much everything we owned at that stage and took off with the kids and started traveling. We thought we might go for six to nine months. But that ended up being two and a half, almost three years of constant travel, uh, with the kids, four of them aged eight, six, and two, three year old twins at the, uh, the time that we started that. Uh, and that, yeah, really kind of took us down the journey of what it means to separate education from state. And we've done all kinds of different. education with them in a system, whether that's private schooling, Montessori style, or straight up state school in Singapore, straight up state school in France, and mix that over the last 10 years with other, other styles. Self led learning. Self led learning at the moment, for sure, yeah. But originally it was nothing to do with education as to why, why we fell into it. It was because We were looking for a different way of living. We wanted to quit the rat race. And homeschooling was how we kind of worked that first initial few years because we wanted the freedom of travel. And then once you start to learn about it and read about it, and you realize And see the results and see the results and actually get to spend time with your children and see how they're learning and see how differently they all learn, you know, having four, they all learn completely differently. And, uh,

yeah, that's really, they really do. What did you have support from both of your both sides of the family or friends when you were making that decision?

we had a lot of, interestingly, we had some friends that were teachers. And they were really supportive about it, maybe because of the age that the children were as well. Uh, family, not so much. I think it's a generational thing as well. They were more shocked. Yeah. And that comes from The fear of ruining their grandchildren, I suppose. Yeah, and that comes from a point of, obviously, love and concern and worry and fear that We were being irresponsible and going to damage our kids chances of ever being able to go to college and ever being able to get a job or ever being able to socialize properly. You know all of the FUD.

Mm hmm. Right, right. So, Tali, you wanted to comment?

Just from the point of view of a mom, like logistic, logistically, how did you handle that? Because not only were you traveling, which in and of itself is difficult, but when you're also trying to school on top of that, what did you use? Like what material did you use? What was your method of teaching?

Well, uh, originally, I mean, life was crazy for us, um, at home back then. Um, Dan was probably not home much at all. So it was all on me. And I had, the twins that were coming up for three and the, six year old and eight year old. And Singapore was very much keeping up with the Joneses environment where they have to do all the activities and, um, you know, swimming, dancing, tennis, uh, all the, all the above. And I was so stressed with getting them everywhere and naps and trying to be the mom with no family to help. And, so something had to give. And it was more a case of me snapping at a child because they've forgotten their ballet slippers at the age of six. And thinking, this isn't right, this, why should my five year old even care about Um, ballet slippers and um, so traveling and homeschooling now all of a sudden I've got Dan around so I've got an extra person, um, to help, um, and we love to travel. She wanted to say Hinda there, by the way,

Well, that's a,

but um, Scott knows what I'm talking about.

Yeah, there's a transition. So not, we, we haven't done the world schooling, but we're about a year trying to go full time with our entrepreneurial Bitcoin education and it's different. I mean, I'll, from the man standpoint to be, to be around, to see how much work Tali was doing to keep all kinds of things going that I just had no idea on. And then I'm like, okay, well, well now what do I do? Like, um, I wanted a man, I'm supposed to help. No clue how this, this operation is really, is really running. So, I mean, you guys, it sounds like you guys did fine with it, but it was a

No, to start with, it was tough because we had different. Methods of discipline and different methods of what approaches to teaching and different expectations of learning. So it took us a while to different levels of patience as well. It turns out I'm not as patient as

Daniel, are you helping

but in the,

Are you actually helping teach then, too?

different things. Um, we both have our skills. Yeah, exactly. Uh, yes, for sure. Um, I'm just trying to think back to like the, the very early days when you're going. So for anybody that's contemplating this, it's, I think, uh, very important to understand that you've got to do a lot of de schooling and unprogramming of your. Own. Which we hadn't at the time. Yeah, of your own problems that you've carried through your own schooling and into your adult life and whatever else. And the expectations of learning because all we knew was Sit down and learn from a book, you know that that was what has been drilled into us as well. And at that stage, I was coming out of an 18 year career. So I've just done the linear thing. I've done to school, got some grades, gone into an apprenticeship, got better, got moved up, got moved to a different country, was on the fast track into, you know, Another 10 to 15 years of just sitting there and grinding out and getting the retirement and whatever else and all of a sudden that's gone and I'm at home every day and dual parenting rather than single parenting and then trying to, you know, help the kids with whatever it is that they're trying to do. Um, my levels of patience fluctuated very, uh, quite volatile in the early days because I've been used to being in a business scenario, 10, 11 hours a day, five days a week, not dealing with three year olds that are arguing over whose cup is who when the cup is the same freaking color. That's all a million times. like, stuff like that I couldn't handle, like, right, I gotta be out of the room right now.

That's awesome. Yeah. I think, I mean, for me, what I hear though, you, you're, you took, you made the leap, right? You, you said we're in this together. We're committing to this. You have the courage to, to do that. And then later on, it's not till later on that you figure out how you do it, the capacity for it, and let alone to have the confidence.

Yeah, we took books with us and we tried to pretend, um, that we were, we knew what we were doing. And, um, you know, occasionally would sit down and say, right, open the books, kids. And then we realized that that was really hard. And then we would go out and we, we were traveling at times and then go to a museum or we'd be in a place where every day was a lesson just traveling. then we realized that they were actually getting so much from our traveling and our journey and. And hopefully they wouldn't remember it, which I'm not sure they actually did. But, um, but yeah, so then it, we tried to use the world as our school, but then occasionally we'd go, But we have to do some more sit down stuff and try and them down again. And then that would end up in arguments because, um, they didn't want to do that, or they'd get frustrated really quickly. it's an unnatural way to learn, right? This is the thing. This is called alternative education. What we've come to realize, and many homeschoolers have come to realize, that alternative education is locking a kid in a freaking classroom with 30 strangers for eight hours a day. That's alternative. There's nothing natural there.

right, I was just going to ask you about that. I was, I mean, cause at some point the light bulb goes on and you're like. I know you'd comment in your, in your, your book about socialization. That was something that our families had had concern about. Then they, they, as they get older and you're worried, man, I'm, I'm almost too worried. Not, not too worried. I'm almost worried for the opposite reason that they're too social. They, they're their confidence now and handling a lot of different situations with a lot of different types of adults and, and others. They're very confident in things that I was like, Hmm. So like what was that like lightbulb moment as you kind of realized what you just commented on Daniel where you you realize that actually This is the natural way of learning. This is actually better for my kids. Like what when was that moment for you guys?

I don't even know if we get, we've had a light bulb moment, but we do get a lot of compliments from strangers, um, or people that just meet them about how they can to adults, look people in the eye, um, engage with people. And that started happening very early and still happens to this day. And that's nothing to do with what we've done. I think it's purely by being around us the whole time. I think that's just, it's like An osmosis of being around us. They've just learnt how to engage with people more. I think that's, uh, uh, one of the big disadvantages of the world that children spend less time with their parents these days. And I think they don't learn so much from that. Yeah. And I think, um, perhaps a light bulb moment for me was meeting other world schoolers and homeschooled kids. Uh, along the way, um, and even really early, we read that blog post. What was her name? I don't know.

You listed out like a hundred resources in the book like I was like I was going through it and I'm like you just had So many to look at I won't even pretend that I know which one

Hannah Miller. Hannah Miller wrote this and she was 13 when she wrote it and it was called, what's hell? Hell world schooling ruined my life. And it was like a brilliant clickbait title and a satirical piece. But it was very satirical. It was, it was, it meant actually the opposite. So yeah, I suppose those little moments when um, one is like, I wish, I hope that by the age of 13 my child can write in this style and be as funny and as open as this. And then, um, you met other kids around the world and like the slightly older ones, you're like, ah, okay. And like Claire said, they'll come up, introduce themselves. You could be anywhere, on a beach, in a park, in a little world school meetup. You'd fall into Facebook groups, so you'd hit country, who's world schooling here, who's on their travels, and blah, blah, blah, go and meet in the park. And you'd meet the other kids, so like, ours were very young still, but you'd meet a 13, 14 year old and they'd come up to you. shake your hand, introduce themselves and sit down. Before you know it, you've had a conversation for 30 or 40 minutes and they've told you where they've been and this and the other thing. You're like, huh, I'm like just sitting here, chilling out, chatting to a 13 year old when I'm used to that experience being, uh, hello, how are you? Um, yeah, nice. Um, how's school? Uh, oh yeah, yeah, it's okay. Like. With a normal schooled person and that could even be your niece or nephew who you're supposed to be close to that just cannot have that, you know, there's that barrier between you and them because they're so used to being the only adult that they ever get exposed to is the authority at the front of the classroom and that's their day to day. So, Those little light bulb moments for me were like, yeah, we're on the right track with, with these kids because look at, and this is what we keep coming up against now because Caitlin is now 18, the twins are coming up 13. Every time we go away to one of these conferences. They're sitting down for hours talking to other Bitcoiner will call on me later. He's like, dude, your kids. I've just been talking to them for hours. I'm like, how old are they again? Yeah. Those guys are 12. Like, this is crazy.

Well, a compliment to you guys then for, uh, for raising them that way. Tali, you were, you were going to ask something there to that?

Well, I, I just want to kind of second what you said with that's something that we have noticed in our homeschooling groups as well. We haven't come across really a whole lot of world travelers, but just the fact that the kids have daily conversations with adults, mom and dad, if just mom and dad, that makes such a huge difference. More than the passing, I'm going to school now. Bye. I love you. You know, that kind of passing moment. But discussions in the kitchen, just over dinner table, that kind of stuff. Because what you guys did is a huge, huge leap from somebody who is still stuck at a corporate job and the kids are going to school. So it might seem like it's, it's like a completely different world. But even if you just take small steps toward having more conversations with your kids, you are already moving in that direction. Kids respond really quickly. Something else I wanted to mention was I wanted to ask you, uh, you mentioned a few minutes back that, you'd be world traveling, you'd be visiting museums and visiting these incredible cities. And then you suddenly realized, Oh, I should probably make sure they can still write maybe too mad. And you're sitting them down. I don't know about your experience, but for our kids, that was very painful because What I forgot for myself was I needed transition time between running places and When I'm the one who's coordinating all of it and I'm not the one doing the learning, I forget that and then I force the kids without that transition time to sit and then it becomes so difficult, you know, like the temper tantrums and the meltdowns and things like that. What was your experience like and what did you guys do to help the kids transition from going all over the place and then sitting down quiet at the table? I do believe that that is part of schooling and that is where self discipline comes into play and it is also Really a necessary part of schooling. So what did you guys do?

I can completely relate to what you're saying. It's, it's when it's on your, on your terms, like you've got to be somewhere. You're doing something. You're trying to rush them through, sit down and do this. We've got half an hour to get this done. That's when it all. goes down and that's totally a parenting issue, not the child's issue, but we put that onto them, I suppose. I don't know if we've ever, I agree, you do have to do sit down things, you do have to do reading and writing and things every now and then. Some days it works, some days it doesn't. I don't know if we've ever solved it. I mean, I think as they've got older, they've been able to do that themselves and do self study a bit more. And since they've been older, we've been trying to follow, student led learning, which is that they follow their own interests. So in the idea is that they're interested in it themselves, so then they have much more motivation to, to sit down. So they'll join the clubs that they want to join on, like Cubrio, for example, we use, or Outskool. Uh, so then it's on them to choose and decide which ones. We obviously help and guide them and in some cases insist. Like, no, you're definitely doing that one because there's no discussion there. You have to do it and you have to try it and we can look at it again in a month's time. And maybe we can swap it out for something else. So, yeah, there is still that element of. Uh, guidance, I suppose, and then when they're actually on the clubs on the zoom calls with, uh, with the other kids and, uh, and the facilitator that all goes fine, they'll sit down and do the work. They're on creative writing clubs and sit there and tap away and then share their stories at the end of it. Uh, which I don't think we would get the same result if it was just you and I saying. Definitely not. No. Right. Write us a story and then present it to us in the lounge in 45 minutes and go.

Well, there's something that I would like to point out for the listeners too, that I think we're just all taking for granted. You're, the ability to learn later, like your own, as you're, as an adult, you're still going to be learning things. So there's something about that self directed, that, that's a skill by it, by itself. But the thing that's on my mind as you guys are talking is I'm just imagining you're traveling the world. You're having Multiple meals with your kids during the day. Maybe sometimes you, you break up and, and you're not, and you think about how many kids these days are either in single family households, or even if both, there's a mom and dad there, the, the hours you have to put into like the rat race, right? Or maybe you're both working and now you're just kind of saying, okay, you're, your child's now gonna spend most of their waking hours with other people. You can't, you can learn a subject later on. You can go self teach, whatever it is, later on, almost anything. You can't as easily go back and try to build a relationship with your, with your kids and set an example of how parents can work together through difficult times. Because I'm sure like, it's not all like, you know, flowers and candy and whatever else. Like there's, there's, there's tough times in there and they see mom and dad working through that. That's a huge, huge thing to teach your kids. Yeah. And you can't easily go back and learn that later. So that's what's on my mind as we're having this discussion, is we can get into the, these technical things on, is it Montessori? Is it Udemy? Is it whatever? But I mean, think about what the kids are getting when you, I mean, to me, this is the heart of, of the self custody of education, right? You are, you're, you're teaching so much more in terms of life skills there and values that is just. You can't even put a price tag on, on, on, on some of those.

I mean, we sit down to eat. together pretty much every, well, at least twice a day, sit down around a table. And you can imagine some of the conversations there, but you know, they're proper discussions sometimes around Bitcoin, not always, but they're proper discussions and with their points of views and whether we think this is right to have this point of view or not. And, um, I think that again goes back to their, you know, it gets discussed whether it's right or wrong, the conversation, but, uh, it's, um, it's, I suppose like a mini debate sometimes, but, uh, I think it's a skill as well. Yeah. And then with, with, to your point as well, Scott, when we were doing the long term traveling with them. Uh, yeah, they were part of it. They were part, whether they realized it or not, they were part of every decision. They were part of every up and part of every down and they experienced. All of the good stuff and all of the bad stuff together as a unit. Like when we were in Thailand and Samuel split his head open, like they saw exactly like mom and dad go straight into panic mode, alert mode, get this shit sorted out mode. And that was a learning experience, all of it. And all of the emotions that came with that and the sadness and then the relief that he was okay. And it was just some stitches and he was back again in an hour or two. Um, you know, all look just those kinds of situations. Huge amounts of learning is going on there.

Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I love it.

That was my favorite part of homeschooling was the fact that our kids know each other very well They know each other's friends. They know each other's teachers And what like you said when we come to the table and They're debating certain points of view or whatever it, they're still together and they can disagree, you know, when, as they get older, because our, our girls are a little bit older than yours. Um, when they disagree, they really disagree, but we're still. Able to talk about it and we can always go back to the reference of remember that time when this teacher did this and that kind of stuff I want to throw a question at you guys. I don't know if you've noticed this. I'm sure you have, but I'm going to throw it out. So going back to what you said before about when you decided to do Um, homeschooling and your family out of their concern and love were afraid that, um, you were going to ruin your kids because we had that. We had that on both sides. And what I am noticing now with our kids being older. And they're going outside, obviously, our family circle, our two boys are working, our girls are at school. What they're noticing now is that the way they think is so, so different from their peers, that it's very, very difficult for them to connect with peers that are the same age. Because they're still, right now, scrolling on Instagram and talking about stuff that are somewhat unimportant. they're stuck in the pop culture, whereas our kids would. Look beyond that just be just because of the type of conversation that we have our home So in that way they have been frustrated that they they are having trouble Connecting with the general peers outside the homeschooling circle. Are you guys noticing the same thing for you guys for your kids?

Yeah, well, we were in another city the other day and, well, a few months ago. a busload of school kids obviously on a on an excursion or going out for the day. Which, uh, the kids obviously in the bus were looking at our kids that were just free out and about in the city. And they're all like pulling funny faces out the bus window and, you know, sticking the middle finger up and things like that, our kids and things, because they think that they're cool and, and, um. And then our kids turned around to each other and went, kids that go to school are just so weird.

Yeah. Can I, can I add this? I just, um, I, there's so many questions I have for you guys. You clear, you mentioned Bitcoin earlier and I'm curious, so I'm assuming you're a Bitcoiner. Is that, is that true? Are

Yeah, I had the same belief, not nearly as deep in as Dan, but yes, I agree with the concept and the ideas behind it.

Okay. So, so Daniel was first and then you, you were, brought along into the, the rabbit hole. So, and then how about the kids are the, were the kids on the spectrum? Because I, where I'm going with that is, I hear Talia and I are, we're, we're throwing our heart and souls into this. We, we believe in this, strongly believe in this, and, and that's a whole other, I mean, this is where Big Winter spent hours, right? But our kids look at us and they say, okay, dad, why do you have laser eyes? You know, you're, you're going to your little cult and you know, they, and they, they make all the comparisons, right? You're, I mean, just so many comparisons. So I'm curious from, from a schooling standpoint, but also from a Bitcoin standpoint, where, where are you guys as a family and how are you guys handling the subject of money? And freedom and the, the things Daniel, that you would talk for hours on your podcast about how do you, how do you handle those in the, in the house?

Well, it gets talked about all the time. So, um, they, they certainly know about it. Um, because, because, because Bitcoin fixes everything. Yeah. That, that, that sentence comes up a lot. Lots of debates about that in the kitchen. Chicken in the fridge. Oh, Bitcoin fixes this. Um, but, um, yeah, uh, all of them understand. Again, the concept of it, how it works, we don't know how deeply, they don't know the technicalities of it, but they understand deeply and much more than probably another kid, even our 18 year olds age, they understand inflation and why the world is in such a state now. They understand it's not just because the pandemic. Um, and, um, they, they understand that it's printing money that, uh, or fiat money, uh, uh, they've read a few books that are more to their level. Played Hoddle Up. Played Hoddle

Oh, nice. Nice. Yeah, that's right. I forgot about

read that. Yeah. Um, uh, our older daughter, she went to school, um, and has much more of, um. I'd say probably different views to the rest of us a bit more so she has more of a outsidely. Well, yeah, she's but she still understands Bitcoin and still comes back to it quite often talks to her friends about it. It's interesting to see how they're going. They're going to be pulled in different directions. And this is, as we know, what Bitcoin does to you, right? It's going to find that thing within you that resonates with you the most. And then you're going to apply your time and effort to that specific. So for you guys, it's Bitcoin and homeschooling. You know, I absolutely 100 percent agree with you. If you separate education from state, you will separate. Money from state and vice versa. And as you said, Scott, Bitcoin is a homeschoolers that just don't know it yet. And homeschoolers are Bitcoiners that just don't know it. That's, that's just 100 percent true. But what's going to bring them in? You know, what will it be? And what will it be for our kids? And having the kids with us at, uh, at some of the conferences, getting them exposed to The, the talks, the panels, the, um, the booths, the work that's been going on, Caitlin currently, she's 18. She's just had a chat with Alex Gladstein and CK from Human Rights Foundation. So she's looking into the, can I do some kind of internship because it's international relations. That's pulling her into this thing. So right, where, where can, who in my network do I need to put in the way of you on your journey? And, and Sophia, she met Rachel actually in Germany, uh, just four or five weeks ago at, um, at an event. And, uh, Rachel's put him on this event in January and Rachel invited Sophia to come and speak on a panel about what's it like to be a teenage. Surrounded by Bitcoin. Surrounded by Bitcoin stuff. How's it shaping your mind? So, goodness knows where she's going to get pulled into. Claire's going to start resonating with um, you know, is it the human rights aspect? Is it getting more For me, that's what interests me more. The humanitarian side of it all. But then someone like My son, he just loves the gaming. He's like, what? You can win sats playing Pac Man and stuff? Okay, let's get into that. Lauren does the show with me. So she's interviewed, goodness knows how many people. She just likes talking to people. Yeah, she loves the conversation of it. And just like sits there and gets truth bombed every episode. She's like, oh. So one day, I guarantee you one day she'll be 15 or 16 and she'll just start coming out with all of this stuff. But where's it going to take her? You know, it's going to be amazing to watch.

Well, I mean, good for you guys. I mean, this is something that's on our mind too. We've cleared it so, you know, so Tali and I earlier this year went to a couple of homeschooling conferences and tried to pitch Bitcoin to homeschoolers and it was an uphill to say it nicely and uphill. Time, like it was, it was, it was a very frustrating experience. So I think we'll get there eventually. And, and it's, and, and the reason I asked that question is we're, we're trying to not only, I mean, we want our own family. We want our own kids to understand this and say, look, we have this insight. We want to share this with you. You guys can, you have the benefit of, you have the whole life in front of you. We're, we're learning this much later. And even within our own family, we're, we're finding that it's not. Uh, it's not that simple and it's certainly not one conversation. You know, it's not one game, one book, one podcast. It's, it's this consistent thing. And the number of times I mentioned low time preference or fiat money or something else like that, the kids just roll their eyes and they're like, okay, dad, we don't need another lecture. But I'm thinking like these are like understanding money, the, the time preference thing. I mean, you guys talked about, um, was it meditation? I think lowering your stress. You guys, you actually talked about that. Those are, those concepts of taking care of your body for the long term and, and doing those things, they're, they're all tied together. All these concepts, like they build on each other and it's like, well guys, this can really, really impact you for the better, your success, your happiness. And sometimes they just, they're not ready to hear it. At least that's my, my take on it is like, why, why can't I get you guys to? See all the things that I'm seeing and I'm trying to, I'm, I'm trying to be more understanding of what's their point of view and how do we reach, how do we reach them? I mean, Tali's teaching me that I, that I don't communicate well with women evidently because we speak like men on podcasts. I'm like, okay. So we had, um, so she's exploring that and she's, she's, she's growing that, but that's the reason I ask is because you're, you're teaching your kids your values. You're teaching them the things from. A normal traditional school, like a traditional curriculum, but then there's this whole suite of new things that we're into with Bitcoin with what is money Austrian economics, lower time preference. I mean, if you want to get into the humanitarian rights and things like that, I mean, there's so much to get into there than the diet and what we're being told with the diet. Well, I want our kids to how do you teach your kids what's right to eat and not eat? You want to talk about influences like we teach our kids this and then our sons will go out and they'll come back with McDonald's bags and pizza bags and or boxes or whatever and we're like, wait a minute, like, didn't we like, what are you doing anyway?

I'm gonna add my two cents in here. I think one of the biggest rewards that we have as homeschoolers is we teach kids to think critically and they're not just being spoon fed like they're, sitting in rows and like cattle, just being, being spoon fed stuff. And so we teach them to think critically and we, because we're new to the homeschooling and that's, sorry, because we're new to the Bitcoin space and our kids were brought up in the traditional way as Daniel, you were mentioning before, we only told them what we knew and what we knew was the traditional stuff like the traditional finance. And, you know, you go, you get good, get good grades, you get a good education, you get a good job, you climb the corporate ladder. That's what we knew. Before we enter the Bitcoin space, we didn't question our understanding of the how, how the world worked and how money worked, because we thought we knew it. The correct way. That was the way we train up our kids. And so suddenly we come across this Bitcoin thing and our mind is blown. But our kids didn't have that need yet. You know, we found Bitcoin out of our need for it. I think everybody has to come to Bitcoin with some type of need. And it could be humanitarian. It could be something else. But everybody had a need and Bitcoin became the solution. And so our kids, they haven't come across that need yet. And so they see us suddenly change. And Our 16 year old, his favorite, um, retort to me or us telling him about Bitcoin is, Mom,

well

mostly mom because he was always working, Mom, you taught me to not accept things that face value. You taught me to question. And I'm like, you're not supposed to question me, you're supposed to question other people. But, but, you know, I, I feel like we have to give them room are because they're, they're really young adults and we've brought them up to be critical thinkers. And eventually they will, their paths will lead there. But if we're shoving it in their face all the time, it's just like any other family and members or friends that we want to say, Hey, you're Can I please tell you about this incredible thing called Bitcoin? They'll be like,

You're

crazy and weird. You know, our kids are looking at us the same way.

totally agree. The critical thinking I think is the most important thing and being able to make their own decisions, look into things themselves. not take everything at face value. But, um, yeah, we get, we totally get the eye rolls all the time. I like, oh, that's talking Bitcoin again. But it's interesting when you sometimes hear your children talking to kids their own age that have nothing to do with Bitcoin, and then trying to explain it to them. And you like why it's important and, and all these things. They're like, huh, They, they did listen. They do get it. And, uh, I suppose, like you say, they have to make, they have to make their own decisions. And, you know, I don't know how many times in my life, my opinions and things have changed. And I've completely pivoted on some things that I thought were. I was really set on, um, before, but, um, I suppose, uh, that's one of our biggest goals is to make sure they're always learning always that, you know, you don't stop learning at 18 or in the early 20s when you finish university, because we're still learning now, but we could really, when we were our kids at school could really see. The love of learning disappearing, like they just were so bored by, yeah, and I would say as well, it's a classic cliche, uh, action speak louder than words. And in 18 months, when you guys are still doing this podcast, and you've. Still you're still designing games. I mean the thing is you always still you've got that game, right? That's there that's out There it's going to keep selling people are going to carry on asking, you know How to play it and whatever else you're going to keep going to conferences. You're not going to stop what you're doing So in 18 months, we're the critical mind these kids that you've brought up that we've brought up and hopefully other people around Around the world that are suffering these same problems 18 months goes by You haven't changed, your conviction is even stronger, your message is clearer, you've sharpened your tools with delivering the messages. Scott can speak to women and you know, it's going to be amazing. Mmm.

Do you, um, have you talked to your kids about university? Are they considering not going?

No, this is where, like, giving them free minds and things is the, uh, well, our oldest is determined to go. And, you know, she, she's not picking the cheaper European universities. She's trying to pick a, I mean, it's not the U S which is picking the UK, which isn't cheap. Um, Sophia, um, doesn't know at all what she wants to do, but she still feels the pressure, I suppose, because the age she is. And all the other kids are looking or working towards university. So the word comes up quite a lot from her. But she is much more open to learning a vocation rather than going to university. Yeah,

be part of the this might be the unprogramming Daniel, you're referring to because Tali and I met in grad school, right? And then our, both of our sons, like, so both of our girls say, okay, we're going to go to school and we're like, yeah, we'll support you and all that. But both of our boys are like, we don't really want to do that. And here, and with all the things that we've learned over the last couple of years of studying Bitcoin, like we were like, yeah, you know, this is not, we, we can't even, we can't say, here's why you really should do this. You know, you should spend a lot of money to go be indoctrinated and do whatever. And, and now it's kind of like unprogrammed in our part and. Now we're back to our families because now we're, you know, we're 20 some years into this thing and we're like, what are your, what are your kids doing? Well, the, the boys have decided to drop out. And they're looking at our families are looking at us like, well, what are you gonna do about that? Like, well, we, we support them a hundred percent. Um, It's been, it's been a, it's a, it's kind of our, one of our current learnings that Tali and I are going through is, is how to have this conversation with what do you think of formal university schooling after all that we've learned through the Bitcoin and what's going on with, with fiat education. So that's the reason I asked, um, looked like I may have hit a sore spot for you. I was like, Oh,

Yeah. No. Well, for me it is, because I, I, I don't want them to, to, to go and be indoctrinated and be forced into debt. It makes no sense. Yeah. For me it's the unnecessary debt. I don't, I don't know. I think they're open minded enough to, to see for themselves when they're being indoctrinated hopefully. But it's. It's the unnecessary debt. And I just hope, it's that, it's that framing as well, Scott, you know, that that is a sign of that, that word, that term dropout. Dropped out. It should be opted out. No, they are opting out of that because it is a choice and is empowering. But somehow it's been turned upside down to make you look weak and an undesirable human being because you dropped out of college or you dropped out of school or whatever. So what we try and, uh, well, I, I certainly hope many people around the world understand you have a choice. You can't opt out and that just reframing that language empowers you. And, um, I hope that Caitlin, it looks as though she, she will go to college. But if she gets the opportunity to intern at incredible organizations before she goes and being surrounded by incredible, inspiring people, then when they get there, like you've experienced, uh, and other homeschoolers have experienced, they get there and they look around at their classmates and they're like, Really? We're talking about the current thing all the time?

That's it. That's exactly what our girls are telling us. And, um, it's kind of like that, uh, you know, I don't know what your faith background is, but a lot of Christian parents are very, very afraid of letting their kids go out and be ruined by the world. And we, I actually told the kids when they were in high school, when you graduate, you're going overseas because you need to see how big the world is.

And

My, my peers, my, the moms were like, Oh my God, what are they going to be exposed to? I'm like, whatever it is, they have to choose their own belief. They grew up under our belief system, but they need to choose. And so the, my, our kids went out and came back with stronger faith because they didn't like what they saw. And the same thing is happening at the universities that our girls are attending. And actually all four of our kids went to school and to. Opt it out afterwards. But now they know where they stand. So it's okay. Even if like your girls, if they go to college and they look around and go, this is it, this is all there is to it. And then opt out. Now their conviction is even stronger. So I actually I'm in favor of letting them go out there and make their mistakes.

Yeah, me too. I

Yeah.

think it's how you learn as well, yourself. If they get there and think, right, this isn't for me, that's for them to have made that choice. But um, and our oldest at the moment she's in Thailand. Yeah. Traveling with her friends. There's three of them. They've gone out there, they've been gone for a month already. And then they'll be gone at least until March. Uh, in, in Thailand and Southeast Asia. Going out and seeing the world and making mistakes. We've already missed one flight. We already missed a flight. Already made a reservation for the wrong like day. Yeah. Already over time zone. Already screwed the time zone up and overpaid for an Airbnb. Yes.

If that's how you learn though, you're right. I mean now You you know sitting down and telling someone how time zones work is not the same as actually messing up And and having to pay Um, with the frustration, the

Having to pay twice

pay twice. I mean, that's, that's a real education there. Um, missing a

when money, when money's tight

yeah. So, um, so one of the things that was on my mind, um, going back a little bit to the, the people who are just starting thinking of like some of the folks who'd be listening to this, the, they might look at that and they say, okay, well, the world changed though, because you guys started world schooling. Before COVID

hmm. Mm hmm.

in some countries like Germany, you can't homeschool, right? It's not even an option in the U S the, the impact of COVID really opened a lot of eyes for parents and it actually helped fuel. The homeschooling movement, and there were a lot of people brought in because they're like, what, like they, they realized like it was, they weren't getting what they, they thought they were getting, uh, or they were getting extra things that they didn't want, uh, in there. So things, for example, that might change for, um, uh, a young family would be, you guys did a lot of home swapping. There are a lot of young couples now that might be forced to rent just because the, where we are in the, in the fiat cycle. So what I'm saying with that is some things have changed and I'm just curious, like if you're, for the people listening now, if you were sitting down with one of those young couples, what would have, what would you say to them? Would anything change from what you, what you captured in your, in your book? Because I know you guys put a lot of thought into that, but the world's changed quite a bit in the last five, seven years, right? So I just want to just ask you to reflect a little bit on that. Is there anything that you would, um, You say

Well, when we were, when we were traveling, we did decide at one stage to stop in France because we wanted our children to learn a second language. So they did go to school for a little while to, to, to use the language and during COVID we decided to take them out of school, which, like you said, so many people decided to take the children out of school in France too. They saw, um, the state education wasn't quite what they wanted anymore, but since then France has changed the laws. Uh, well, interestingly enough, late 2020, after the, the first lockdown, uh, they decided to change the homeschooling laws, so it's, it's really hard to homeschool in France now. And I'm seeing so, so many European countries, especially Western European countries, are, um, making it harder for the parents. The, the hoops you have to jump through makes it really, really hard. The paperwork. the assessments for the children. And for example, in France, when you homeschool, you have to teach the state education to your children, which for me, that's not the point of homeschooling. So, um, so if For me, it's a lot easier to drop my children at school at eight o'clock in the morning and pick them up at four o'clock in the afternoon than to have them at home if I was going to have them learn the state education. So why would I teach them that at home all day? Um, so, uh, yeah, it, I, it, it's, it's much more difficult, I'd say now you've really got to, and, um, yeah, as, as a parent, I'd say that to another homeschooling parent is that I constantly have doubts in what I'm doing all the time and reassess things and I, but I think I would do that if they were at school. You know, if, if they're at school, I'd always be thinking, am I doing the right thing? Are they in the right school? Is everything working, but we always doing that, uh, the kids is this working. And, you know, I suppose it's about being adaptable to everything and the children, because they're also different. And

these the fight you stage is scary with the you know I did I did not realize that the to the extent that you're describing Like how much the the they're going that way. Sorry, Daniel. I didn't

there's a lot of regular, lot of regulatory creep, um, across all of, uh, of all of Europe, uh, especially in, um, even the UK that, you know, it's, it's getting tighter. Yeah. It's probably one of the freer places in Europe. So we were talking to the founder of a Sudbury Valley school in, in Southeast. England in Kent, and she was explaining how the regulatory creep is creeping up on them to the point where now they can only accept in quote students to come to the, and Sudbury Valley is a democratic style, uh, school styled after the Sudbury Valley School in, in the us. Uh, and uh, she said, yeah, we can only have students come in between Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. Uh, between 9. 30 and 3. 30, because if we have any more minutes than that, then we are operating as a school, in air quotes, and we come up under a completely different regulation. More of an association, I suppose. Yeah, so when you look at Montessori schools, or Waldorf Steiner schools, or any of these other kind of alternative, again in air quotes, schools, Uh, if they're working five days a week, they're just a quasi state school with a kind of They are in France. Yeah. In fact, anything else just recently closed down, I didn't realize, but one by one. Mm hmm. And I think it's because they're not doing the state So they used to be kind of like forest schools and things here, but they've just been regulated out of town.

wow.

if you are, if you're welcoming kids into, um, an institution five days a week, then therefore you need to have, it's like banking, you know, you can only bank if you've got a license from the federal reserve or from the bank of England or whatever, you can only school if you've got a license from the ministry of education. And if you have that license, then there are certain things that you need to. Uh, adhere to and certain requirements and regulations and so if you really want to be a democratic school, you're like, no, we're not doing any of that. This is the whole point of this school. Then they start crimping the amount of time you can actually offer to the kids. So this is going on

Wow. So other countries that are going the other way other countries that are Kind of a bastion for

up. None I've seen. I think Eastern Europe might be easier. I don't know for sure. I know there's a lot of them. Homeschoolers more in, um, Czech Republic and, um, maybe Bulgaria and places like that. But yeah, those countries, I suppose, where they, yeah, they. Uh, I, I'm not sure it's a hundred percent, but I think it's pretty much. You can fly under the radar in those countries. But it's prohibited in places like Sweden or Scandinavia, Netherlands, Germany, Very difficult in France, very difficult in Spain,

So maybe if you, someone wanted to world school today, maybe they should be looking at Asia or some somewhere else.

Well in Asia,

I interviewed a homeschooler in a Bitcoin homeschooler in Portugal, and she said that she pulled her oldest one out during COVID, and she had a lot of trouble with paperwork. But then second one, because he never went into the system, there's no problem. So if you move to Portugal, and you don't enter the system at all, it's actually quite easy, as far as I

Yeah, you gotta be, you gotta be flying very low. It's about not being a resident in some countries. Like for, France is different. If you're, even if you're not a resident. They say you have right to free education, so you should be at school. Um, but places like Portugal and Spain, I think if you've not,

hmm. Mm

registered. Well, it's getting into health systems and things like that as well. You know, like as soon as you're in that, that flags another bureau and that flags this and that flags that. That's where they make it difficult. If you look, you know, Europe's quite socialist. If you wanted any child benefits or anything like that, you don't get it if you don't send your children to school. Um, things like that. But to go back to your, your original question, Scott, about, um, if people are thinking about doing world schooling, what's changed and whatever, uh, I would say, yeah, I mean, by and large, it's still the same. In fact, I would say it could even be easier in finding accommodation now because things such as. Couch surfing and I mean, Airbnb has bloomed in the 10 years since we've been doing it. We use home exchange and yeah, if you do not have your own property to exchange, then of course, that's a problem, but people do exchange their rented apartments. That's permission from them. Yeah, it's up to them to. Yeah. And I suppose it's no different to family sitting is a big, big thing looking after people's pets and pet sitting, house sitting. Uh, working on farms and that there's ways you can do it, uh, Woofing, that's called, or there's HelpX as well. Uh, there are ways that you can do it as a family, no doubt. Uh, there's probably less available, uh, cheap airlines around the world these days because they've been squeezed. So maybe that price has gone up a little bit, but, uh, I would say it'd still be cheaper than most people would ever. They don't believe you when you tell them traveling long term is a cheaper way to live than just sitting steady and still in one place. Uh, and any world schooler will tell you that. It does sound very privileged, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. But, you know, once you, once you go and you start moving and you start figuring things out and, uh, falling into, uh, your rhythm, um, you, you learn all the hacks and the tricks and the tools and what works best for you. Uh, it's still very doable and, uh, honestly, I think if somebody was thinking about doing it, do a six weeker or something, you know, just, just try six weeks somewhere, try and get a home swap set up or a couple of home swaps set up or a house sit, whatever it is, and just go for it and see what it's like and then come back and like, well, did that work? Did we enjoy it? We're all still breathing, right? And can we do this for six months next time? Because the, the upside is so huge and When you were asking us, you know, again, about what were family and friends thinking on your original decision, and it feels to me as though still to this day, we're judged on the original decision rather than the results and the kids, which are unquestionable when you sit down and actually talk to them and see them and just wonder at the different Thank you. experiences that they've had, now they're bilingual, like that wouldn't have happened if they'd sat in a classroom for, you know, goodness knows how many times a day. When our kids arrived in France, they started learning Spanish at school at the same time as they were learning French, which they hadn't, um, learned before. So, um, and our daughter said to us the other day, she's been learning Spanish for six years and French for six years, but she's completely bilingual in French. And she learned Spanish at school through a classroom and she's like, I can't speak Spanish. I've learned it for seven years, but, um, yeah, so it just shows you the difference between immersion. And classroom learning.

Yeah. A hundred percent. That's a great example. Yeah. I know everything you're saying by both of you that it's worth it, right? There's, there's a lot of, this is going to take some work and, but it's worth it. The relationship with your kids, what the experiences that they're going to develop their frameworks for life, the experiences that are just going to help shape them, that it's, it's worth it fighting the bureaucracy and the paperwork and. Um, whatever else that you have to, you have to deal

Yep. It's exactly what you said earlier. You've got this one limited time with them. They're only young for so long, and then they'll have their own lives and their own projects. And, and obviously they'll go and come back. Well, they're still family, but Um, it's, it's such a limited time, there's only this one time

right,

it work.

I just have one quick one more question, which is for your older kids. Do they talk about whether or not they're also looking to homeschool? When they have their own children.

Yeah, good question. Uh, I don't know. No, I don't know. I don't know what they would do. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Um, thankfully, not had that one yet. Uh, maybe that one's coming. Harold, have they spoken to you about that?

Yes, uh, we actually have talked a lot about that. We have a 20 year old son who is engaged to another homeschooler. They kind of grew up together in the homeschooling program. And both of them are already talking. extensively about how they want to raise their children and definitely want to homeschool. But her mom's approach to homeschooling was so different from mine. And so he said that they want to take a little bit from her side and a little bit from his side, combine them. So he, uh, so Nolan has talked extensively about that. My girls have said, well, actually, Brianna has said that she definitely wants to homeschool. And Alaya says she's not sure. It depends on her circumstance. And Caden's 16, so he's not thinking that far yet.

Oh, that's, that's, that's interesting. And, and congrats, uh, on the look. I hope, I'm sure you're looking forward to the big day.

It's going to be,

It's a little strange, you know, I wasn't expecting it to happen this soon.

Yeah.

He's a little on the young side.

He's young, but he thinks he thinks longterm. So I, I wasn't mature enough at 20 to make a life decision like that. I just wasn't ready, but they're very, very thoughtful. So they're very, they're, they're very thoughtful about what they're trying to plan for the future and good autumn. There, just because it was a different timing than me, I'll have to, I'll just have to learn and I can't force other people into my path. So, um, but it's, yeah, you, I think, I think as a parent, you're, you're like learning more than the kids are from the experience. And I know, I feel like that for me, it's been a personal journey and this is just the next step. So, Mm

if there's gonna be more and more homeschooled kids in the next 10 to 15 years because it changes everything. It changes the way people look, how they, uh, look at life, how they act, how they interact. Um. And one thing that I've noticed going to the conferences that I've been going to for the last 18 months, people come up to me and they stop me and they tap me on the shoulder and they're like, listen, I just want to tell you I love this show and everything. We love that Lauren asks the first question and blah, blah, blah, that first 10 minutes is golden. And they're like, and you know what? I had no idea that the education system was set up the way it was and my kids will never go to state school because of listening to your interviews with what you guys have been on and whoever else I've had on I must have like 15 or 20 different episodes now focused purely on that. And they're like, no, blown away. Can't believe I ever went through that. Can't believe I never questioned it. But all I do know is when I do get married and we do have kids, they ain't going to state school or I've got to find a partner. Who already thinks that their kids are never going to go to state school. And I know I've probably found the right partner. So it's, it's great to hear that, uh, you know, you're, you're expecting just to talk about Bitcoin the whole

Mm hmm.

that's, that's just a nice takeaway.

Yeah, you guys are the OGs of, of world schooling to the, I mean, they're like, oh man, look, they were in early. They did it, you know, like,

Yeah. I think now that our eyes are opened, a lot of people have talked to us after our, um, homeschooling panel discussions different places and said, I, I don't have a significant other, so I don't have any children, but when it does happen. They're getting homeschooled like young people coming up to us and they're listening to the discussions.

I think Bitcoiners are already primed, like they're already, the idea of proof of work, um, taking self custody of anything, money or education, like they're already in separation of education and state, like they're, these, the concept of applying that to a new area I think is a lot faster than, than the homeschoolers who are They, they have a lot of the, the core, they value freedom, they value taking care of their kids and their education and all that. But they're, they're like so far behind. They're not primed to hear a new way of doing things, right? Our experience has been a lot of the people who've chosen homeschooling, they're overwhelmed. Maybe now they're, they're trying to get by on one, one income. So they're probably being super frugal. They're trying to figure out all the curriculum that they need to have. And then you come along or Tali and I come along and say, Hey, we, you should add this. You should add money to your, your thing. And by the way, it's not Dave Ramsey, right? Like, you know, it's, it's, it's this, this whole other thing. And you try to explain it to them, their eyes glaze over. So now you're scaring them with a new topic. They don't know how they're going to fit it in. And if they do fit it in now that you're going to try to convince them that you're the one that has trusted resources for it. So they're like, there's like battle, battle, battle, battle. So they will eventually get there. Over the next, I don't know how many years it'll, it'll, it'll take, but going to any Bitcoin meetup, people are primed like they're, their mindset is already that way. And now they're just applying it to their health. They're applying it to education. They're applying it to just fill in the blank. They're just applying those principles to the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. And it's true with education. So yeah, it's exciting. This is our area where we feel like we can help. Give back to, like I said in the introduction, like we're, we're not the techies, right? We're not gonna be able to explain to you how the technical stuff works. Um, but, um, you know, we're not financially analysts or anything like that, but I mean, this, this area we've, we've, this is what we dedicate our lives to do with in terms of raising the kids. And it, it, it fits with the mission of, and the freedom oriented people in Bitcoin. So, and we get to meet great folks like, like yourselves. Like if we hadn't done this, we never would have taught. I'd still be listening to my podcast or, you know, books, whatever, seeing the kids, maybe a couple minutes at night if I'm lucky because I'm so tired, I just want to go to bed, right? That would have been the alternative. And instead we're, we're out making much deeper connections with people who value have the same kind of values we have from all over the world. Tali is interviewing ladies from like literally all over the world. And we're talking about going to Madeira. We're talking about other things that we want to do. We went to El Salvador. We never would have done that had we not been in this community. So it's, it's very exciting to be part of. And hopefully the kids are watching and they'll get some ideas and they'll say, yeah, we want to, we want to do what mom and dad did. I hope

Well, we hope to see you in Madeira. We'll, we'll be there. So if you get across, uh, it'd be cool to, uh, to hang out with you.

Yeah, that'd be awesome. Hey, let's do that.

For me personally, it's the, um, it's those conversations. It's the meeting the people. Um, I don't have. inspiring conversations day to day with people around in our communities. Other than you, babe. But, um, but then, uh, when we, uh, go to those, those, uh, those conferences or the meetups, just every conversation, what people are doing or how they're doing it. And it just, the conversations blow me away. And it just, it, it's inspiring. It gives me Hope, uh, you know, I can, I can just feel inside me just a positiveness. Um, from those conversations, which, you know, don't get quite so much these days. Right.

So, so here we've gone through this, this, this awesome experience you have. It's the proof of work, the way your, your kids have seen the world and what they experience and they're bilingual and they, they have a whole different. Perspective and you have these relationship and experiences together. And that is just awesome. So just a shout out to you guys. As we, as we wrap up, what would be maybe one or two of your favorite resources that you might point people to? I mean, obviously we're going to put in the show notes, a link to one's bitten and to. To, um, to your book. Choose life. So we'll have links to, to that, but is there anything else that you guys have that are favorite resources or favorite things that you like to point people to?

We use a lot of different things, don't we? We use Khan Academy quite a bit. Yeah. KUBRIO. K U B R I O. Online learning platform. Online self directed education platform. Probably for I think the sweet spot for kids aged between 8 to 14 at the moment. Uh, then, Out School, obviously has a lot of, uh, stuff on there that you can just plug into. And if you want to go down the rabbit hole, and like we said, in getting yourself prepared first is key, uh, uh, any of the books by John Holt, that's H O L T. Peter Gray. Peter Gray's book, Free to Learn. I have an interview with Peter on the Once Bitten podcast. also have an interview with Pat Ferringer, who carried on John Holt's work as well on the Once Bitten podcast. So if you just go to Once Bitten and search Peter Gray, you'll find it, or Pat Ferringer, you'll find it. Naomi Fisher. Naomi Fisher, she's written a book, two books now, uh, that are very worth digging into, uh, because she comes at this from a clinical child psychologist point of view that was in the system before she had to get out of the system because she saw, like her, her big light bulb moment was maybe there's nothing wrong with the kids. Maybe it's the

Mm hmm. Mm

then of course she was canceled for saying such things. And, uh, John Taylor Gatto, all of his books, incredible. Gabo Marte. Gabo Marte. Hold on to your kids. Another book. Yeah. Uh, and for the Austrian economic minded people out there, go and read Rothbard's book, Education Free and Compulsory. So if you're coming at this from a Bitcoin slant or an Austrian economics slant, go read Rothbard. It's amazing.

Okay. Oh, I love it. I can't wait to put all the links to those. And then Tali and I are always looking for,

Sorry for the extra

no, I mean, it's great because now there are things that we haven't yet read or explored and, and that's just, that's a fantastic, uh, fantastic start. So we'll absolutely check all those out. But any other, any other final thoughts, Claire, Tali, you guys, uh, you want to get out. No, guys, we really we really appreciate your time we're looking forward to hopefully meeting up maybe in Madeira And best of luck with these other the next stages that you guys go through as well.

Thank you for having us. Thank you very much.