All right.

Hello, hello, hello.

Welcome to another episode of the Sell By Being Human podcast.

I'm your host, Alex Smith, and this is the podcast where we learn from people from all walks of life who sell things through the lens of human connection.

I think we can learn human skills from people all around us.

And this is the place where I'll bring the very best of those people together.

And I have one of those people on today.

I just knew when I met this person at the Transform conference in Las Vegas in March.

And if you don't know what that is, if you're connected at all to people, to hr, to learning and development, anything around new technologies in the workplace, you want to be at this thing.

It's just a really creative, unique conference, I think, and just intentionally set up for connections to happen.

And that's where I literally met this person at, I think, a breakfast.

And we just, you know, quickly connected with one of her colleagues and just kept it going throughout the conference and after.

This person has had a career in coaching, learning and development, coaching new managers and running programs from new managers.

She's led a career at different programs throughout lots of different organizations.

She actually runs a podcast.

I love the topic.

Just the New manager podcast.

So just a podcast for people that, you know, sometimes fall into being managers.

Maybe they were that this is their first time being managers.

So, like, how do you get that training?

Where do you go?

Her podcast is the place.

And finally, you know, she's somebody that now, you know, coaches, teams and leadership execs and managers alike.

I'm so, so, so pleased to welcome none other than Kim Nichol to the podcast.

Welcome, Kim.

Thank you, Alex.

I'm so glad to be here with you.

Yeah, me as well.

You know, Kim, I knew, like, just in talking to you, just, you know, your focus with, like, with developing people that are newly in a seat of.

Of like a manager role.

They're leading people and just even coaching.

We've had a lot of coaches on this, and some people are like, okay, how is a manager selling something?

Even if they're not a sales manager necessarily, they're just.

They're a leader of people and they're thrust into this role and kind of, what are those skills?

And typically it's like, hey, if you're successful in your role, then, okay, the next place to go is in managing people.

And that's not always, like, the best formula necessarily, but, you know, certainly you have to connect with the people, you know, that you're working for in your team.

And there's A lot of skills that are very similar.

And there's ways that you have to, you know, sell your clients on working with you.

There's ways that managers have to sell their teams on wanting to work with them.

So, Kim, you mentioned, you know, your boyfriend kind of helping you see things in a different way.

How did it look like, you know, from the fitness point of view, you know, where.

Where did you see some of those changes take place in other people?

Like when you were.

I'm sure you saw like, you.

You were.

It's probably easy to see when people resist you saying, hey, like, let's, you know, think about this.

And they're like, no, Kim, I know my body was.

Is.

Is what I'm trying to fix here.

Like, just help me fix my body.

And you kind of have to, like, know, want to give them what they want, but then you also, you.

You can't just tell them to do something a different way.

Right.

You have to kind of balance giving them what they want with also having them see a different perspective.

So where did you see some of those, like, aha.

Moments take place with people from, like, you were yoga teacher.

So tell me where you saw maybe some of those subtle things that people did that go.

Made them go, you know what?

I don't need to hold on to this.

Or this is.

This makes sense, Kim.

So one of my favorite reframes.

There are actually two that I'll share with you.

One is a lot of folks have a high resistance to pushups, and I am one of those people.

Ever since I was a kid, push ups, I always felt like I failed at them.

I never felt competent at them.

They always really challenged me.

So knowing that when people hear the word push up, they immediately feel the resistance.

They start to get anxious about it and they start to already think, oh, I can't do that.

I don't like that.

The way I would cue people into it is I'd break it down real small and I'd say, well, first we're just going to come to hands and knees.

Tabletop.

Yes.

You've got it.

Amazing.

You're doing so good.

Okay, now maybe extend the legs out.

Great.

Now you're in a plank.

Incredible.

And now here's what we're going to do.

We're going to do an elbow bend.

So everyone bend your elbows.

And then people could bend the elbows.

Like, I can do that.

So it's steps of success all along the way.

And then I'd offer as an option.

Now, if you're.

If you really want to unbend the elbows, go ahead and straighten the arms.

And the result of straightening the arms was it would create that push up experience.

And all of a sudden it no longer felt like that high resistance.

I don't like this.

I can't do this.

I'm not good at it.

Now, tapping into the curiosity of, well, let's find out what I can do.

Let's do some of it.

Let's feel successful at every little step.

And at the very least, I'm really good at bending my elbows so I can do that.

So it was really neat to start to see that shift with people.

When there's resistance drops, there's now that openness of, well, let's find out.

Let's try that.

So that was one and then the other one was in my class, we often did a lot of squats, so there was lots of heat and lots of tremors in the legs and in the low body.

And I'd say, okay, you know that feeling in your body when you're working really hard and you feel like you're gonna die?

And they'd say, yes, I feel like I'm dying.

I'd say, no, this is your body telling you how alive you are.

You are so alive right now.

This is your body telling you that you're strong because the wobbly feeling is how you build strength.

And all of a sudden, instead of feeling like the wobbliness was an indicator of weakness, now they're like, no, that makes sense.

I can see that.

That wobbliness is a feeling of, oh, that's my body building more strength in me.

And that also then started to shift the resistance and helped to create more of that feeling of enthusiasm for.

For doing the thing that was hard, but was also aligned with why they were there in the first place.

Yeah.

Wow.

You know, like that.

Yeah, it makes me think like, I never got into gyms, really working out hard.

I did stuff in high school, but then, you know, just, I was like, maybe six years ago, seven, something like that.

I'm like, I need to do something.

And I saw someone that's like, look, if you can do, you know, any of these things on Instagram is like, I'll get.

I'll donate money to charity.

And they were like, one sit up, one push up, one burp.

It was just like one or two.

And for every one you send me, you know, I'll donate a dollar or something.

And I'm like, if I can't do this, then I'll never do it, you know?

And then he's like, you know, and then when you start following him and this guy we're talking about is Jesse Itzler from Build you'd Life Resume.

And he's done tons of endurance challenges.

And he's like, you know, why not?

Like, okay, you've never.

How do you get off the couch and start running a marathon?

Right?

You don't do it overnight.

Just run for five minutes, you know, run for five, walk for five.

And.

Or even just, you know, a couple minutes, walk for two or three, run for two or three.

And it's like, can you do this little thing?

Like, forget about running a mar.

Like, don't even.

That's not even your goal.

Your goal is just to, like, you said, bend your arms, do this next thing.

Can you do this little thing?

And you're thinking, why?

Why?

Okay, yeah, sure, I can do that little thing.

What's that?

Well, yeah, over time, though, like, you're saying, do you know that feeling?

Oh, when.

Now that feeling comes, you know, that it's not like, in a negative way, in a pain way, but it's like you're looking forward to it coming because you're, like, knowing, okay, now, like, I can maybe do one more where it's telling me I'm preparing myself.

So it's interesting how, like, the, the concept of a reframe in that way, it's.

It's.

It's using it again.

And then you said connected to why they were there in the first place, why they were there to get, you know, kind of lose weight, get stronger, all that.

Well, that's your body telling you you're doing those things.

So, like, those.

Those things.

So that's interesting.

Yeah.

You know, when you're, you know, like, Kim, can you talk at all about, like, some of these, like, skills that I think I see in you, you know, this ability to keep people calm in the face of, like, you know, kind of like, you know, whether it's at a gym, whether it's in a managerial coaching setting, we'll talk about how this shows up in your coaching clients.

But these skills of, you know, helping people feel at ease and safe, are there people that you think you learn them from?

Are there think that there's situations that shaped you in a way to do those, to kind of hone these skills?

Because, you know, these.

These aren't easy.

You know, some people think they're.

They're innate.

I feel like they're things that we can all learn from those around us.

Can you point to anybody or situations in Your life, do you think, helped you be able to be acutely aware of, you know, what people are feeling and, you know, keeping people safe and calm and that sort of thing?

In that way, yes.

I'll give you a very specific context and I also want to share with you and with your listeners a specific practice that you can do.

You can try it out today and choose a situation that's kind of a normal everyday moment.

So you might be in line at the grocery store.

If you're traveling, try this at the airport when you're surrounded by people who have a sense of urgency and maybe a little stress.

Try this at work.

So the technique specifically is to, in your mind, just think this thought, I'm glad you're here.

When you see someone, think that in your mind, I'm glad you're here.

It has this calming effect because for you, it creates a sense of presence, a sense of appreciation, a sense of welcoming.

And the way I learned this, and it's been astonishing, it seems so simple.

But honestly, just try it and see what happens.

It's this really interesting effect.

I learned this really, this became clear to me several years ago when I was a hospice volunteer.

And one of the really interesting things about hospice, so we're all going to die one day.

That's something that we all get to do.

I feel like if we're lucky, we get to have a hospice environment which is specifically designed to provide comfort and ease as life starts to unwind itself.

And when I was a hospice volunteer, it's such an interesting experience because there's nothing there to feel fix.

And if you're a very solutions oriented person, then this is going to be a different kind of thing.

Right.

And the role of being in hospice as a volunteer is not to fix anything.

It's not to understand someone's diagnosis or why they're there.

It's simply to be present with them, to provide a sense of connection and this sense of appreciation, like, I'm glad you're here.

You're a human, I'm a human, we get to have this time together and there's no conversation required.

There's nothing that needs to happen here.

It's an incredibly profound moment of appreciation and presence and just enjoying being with someone.

And what occurred to me when I had that experience is that that's also what we do with babies, right?

If we're with babies or little kids, you know, we're not there for the conversation, right?

We're not there to like get something from them.

We're simply with this being with this person, even if they're a tiny little baby, and we're thinking, wow, welcome.

I'm so glad you're here.

What an amazing thing that we get to be together right now.

And so this sense of, oh, that's kind of underneath all of it.

That's how we arrive on the planet.

And I think if we're lucky, that's how we get to end our time on the planet.

And what's nice is that we can also bring that same quality of attention into these everyday moments.

And because we're humans, that also means that our emotions tend to radiate out.

You know, if you walk into a room with really stressed people, we start to feel stressed.

Also, if, you know, the person when they walk into the room, everyone kind of lights up.

It's like, oh, hey, Alex is here.

Oh, it's so great to see him.

We have that effect on each other.

And so we can kind of tune into and be intentional about what is the quality of attention and the effect I want to bring into this room, whether it's a physical room or a virtual room or into, you know, a relationship or a conversation.

You know, like, just as I hear you were talking, like, I'm just thinking of situations where I could have done that.

And, you know, my first, like, you know, physical reaction was like, what if, like, you know, someone's yelling at you?

Or what if someone's at the airport and they're, like, super stressed?

But, like.

And just saying, like, you know, there's probably situations where that might be hard, but if you just did it, your brain is like, you know, even if you can't, like, you know, if they're being frustrated at you, maybe they're even being rude to you.

If you're just saying, I'm glad you're here.

You know, you're.

You can't help but think, like, okay, like, again, like you said in the beginning, like, we all kind of want the same things.

We all want to be, you know, respected and loved and cared for and listened to and valued and all those different things.

And it's like, no matter what, like, we all have those days where we're.

We ourselves are, you know, that person, that stress, that person on the other.

Maybe we don't act the same way, but, like, we still feel that same way, you know?

And so by just saying you're glad.

Yeah, that is so pro.

It's.

It's so.

I don't know why I'm, you know, it took me, you know, 42 years to learn it or whatever.

But, yeah, it's.

Yeah, I imagine that, like, you know, it's funny because, like, you're the second person.

The person we had on before this Sunny.

She.

Her first job out of college was a hospice nurse.

And the things that she learned were just so profound.

And she was talking about how she sold people and people that were very resistant to wanting to be helped and people even in dementia.

But, like, when people sit with you and when she would care for people and even just say, just tell people, I'm going to open your hands.

I'm going to wash your hands.

A woman that hadn't opened her hands for a couple weeks and was very dirty and probably itchy.

And I'm going to.

This is what I'm going to do.

I'm doing it because of this.

I'm here.

You might not know.

And she was talking to her as if she was, know, totally, you know, had all of her faculties.

And then she just began to kind of open her hands and slowly just, you know, by what she was doing.

Like you.

And that goes to, like, you just sitting there with somebody and caring for them as if.

Yeah, again, they're not trying to fix anything.

They're just with you, Somebody to sit with you, to be with you.

Um, I've heard, sometimes heard.

I mean, the quote.

It's one of my favorite sales quotes.

Is sales something you do to someone?

It's something you do for and with someone.

Anthony in Arena.

And it's making me think of that quote in my head and some of these stories.

But I'm beginning to think hospice care is one of the most unknown sales positions in connecting with people that there is.

Because you're the second person that's pointed to that kind of experience.

Yeah, I mean, I definitely think anyone who feels curious or called to volunteer or work in that space, there's so much to be gained and learned from that experience of being a human with other people in such a unique context.

You know, and the other thing that you.

That you said just now that I wanted to share on too, is.

And especially in the workplace.

So one question I get a lot from folks is, you know, I met this new manager.

They have to give feedback to someone and they get really defensive and I'm afraid to give them feedback or I'm so reluctant to have this conversation because I know they're going to get defensive and it might be their manager or it might be someone on their team or it might be someone that they work with.

And there's this Fear of if I bring this up or if I have to give them this news that they don't want, they're going to get real spiky.

And in that context, it's kind of.

It's sort of similar.

Right.

We want to still have that sense of calming effect.

But if you're feeling anxious about it, the other way you can think about it is I like to imagine this person is like a puffer fish, and the thing they're really good at is getting spiky when they feel scared.

And so if they're feeling impatient, scared, whatever, they're just going to puff up like a puffer fish.

So your job is not to prevent them from puffing up and getting spiky and defensive.

It's to realize they're probably going to do that.

That's fine.

That's the thing that they do.

They're really good at it.

And I still need to have this conversation with them anyways.

But now I can do it from a place that's less reactive and less worried about how they're going to respond.

So you're still able to maintain this connection without feeling bad about them getting reactive or spiky or defensive about the thing you need to say, yeah, let's.

Talk about that because.

Okay, so tell everyone, for those that maybe don't know about your background, kind of, how did you get into what you're doing today?

And, you know, in the work and what are you.

What are you doing today in what you do with your business?

Yeah, so I'm a life coach, and my specialty is in mindfulness and leadership and how to be a more effective manager.

But what's interesting is that I typically work with people who seek me out because they want to be good at managing, and they realize it's a very different job from whatever it is they're good at.

So you might be really good at sales, but managing a sales team is a different job.

You might be a really good designer, but managing a team of designers, that's a different job.

And so what's.

What's interesting is that it's a little bit different than often how it works internally, where an organization says, oh, you're a manager.

We're going to give you this training.

We need you to.

And you're lucky if the organization does, because most organizations are like, you're promoted, here's your job.

Get after it.

Just go figure it out.

There's often not a lot of resources available, especially at the early stage of a leadership journey.

It's just A really hard, you know, time to support people.

So I got into this because I realized it's such an unmet need.

It's so overlooked.

And I thought, there's a better way to do this.

You know, like, my career journey has had a number of stages.

I have worked in marketing.

I have been a lawyer.

When I was working in law as an editor in a legal publishing company, I became a manager.

I got promoted to the team I had been managing.

So my peers suddenly became.

I became their boss.

So that created this weirdness around the friendships because we used to complain about our bosses together.

Now I was the boss.

And the other thing was there was this realization of, oh, I actually have real power over their livelihood.

That is a serious responsibility.

Responsibility, right.

I'm responsible for determining, you know, their raises.

I can help them get promoted.

There was suddenly this realization of, oh, this is a job I really need to think about in a different way than when I was side by side with them.

Now I can.

I really have to think about this job differently.

And so part of that realizing that, oh, when I was a new manager, there was not a lot of support.

It was a lot of just figure it out.

And I thought it would have been nice if there had been someone or some resource that would have helped me.

And then the other piece is just caring about the way that we nurture people and leaders, especially earlier in career, because I really believe, if you've ever heard this quote, I don't know to whom it is attributed.

I think it's just one of those universal truths.

People don't leave companies, they leave managers.

Right.

The relationship you have.

Yeah, the relationship you have with your manager has such a significant effect on your quality of life as well as on your career and professional development.

And so for me, I think that's a very important, a very important role.

And so I want to support and help with coaching and with my podcast, people who care about doing a good job and who also want to be more effective in the job.

Because if you as a manager are feeling like you don't know what you're doing, you don't know how to have these conversations.

If you're losing sleep worrying about how you're going to deal with, you know, the job, then it's going to be less effective and it's also not going to be a great experience for you.

So I really like helping people at that stage to be more mindful, to develop their own way of leading, to take a very human centered approach.

And they don't have to wait for their company to get on board.

Like they can just find my podcast and start learning immediately.

And sometimes what I love is people will reach out to me for coaching and then I'll coach them on how to advocate for their work, to sponsor them to work with me.

So speaking of sales, right, like sometimes people say, oh, I want to work with you, Kim, I'll just pay out of pocket.

And I'll say that's awesome.

But also your work might have budget for this and if you'd like, we can talk through how might you sell your organization on sponsoring you and picking up the cost and why this is actually a good thing for you.

Yeah, I love like, so there's so many places to go.

I want to know some tactics of what you think you see managers struggle with the most and what things you're, you know, helping them with the most and then having the difficult conversation whether you're an employee or manager.

I think it works both ways.

I mean, I'm sure there's ways you can coach an employee to do that and a manager deliver that.

So I'm interested in those two things.

Let's talk about before I get into those two things.

The first, what you just said, like, you know, I could benefit from this.

I'm sure a lot of people could benefit from this, right?

Like, I don't know what trainings our managers get.

I know they go through maybe a program and things like that and there's some coaching, but I don't know if it's like one on one or what, you know, we pay for.

So what is your sales pitch to a person to then take this in the company and have you been successful?

Tell me what your approach is there.

I love it.

I mean, it's always really cool when people are surprised that their company is willing to sponsor them to work with me.

And because I work primarily one on one with people, what I tell them is there are lots of different ways to learn and develop the skills you will need to be effective in this job.

But what I offer is one on one individual support, which means you're not going to be passively consuming content through an online course or through reading a book or through, you know, a lot of these kind of like bigger, you know, learning styles.

You're really going to get that individual one to one coaching and feedback.

That means we use our time really efficiently and effectively because we're going to be focused on you and your specific situation, personality, strengths, needs, and the particular dynamics that you're facing.

And so for A lot of people, that's how they like to learn.

And I've had some people say, well, our company offers this kind of learning program, but I want to supplement that with having a one on one coach.

So I like to think of it like that.

Like I always want to encourage the people in my world to learn from as many resources as you have available.

And if you're the kind of person who thrives and does well with that one on one attention, focus and support, then coaching is an awesome choice.

Yeah.

So, you know, it's kind of, you're talking to people about, you know, supplementing it.

It's a different learning style.

It's one to one, you're getting feedback which can't happen asynchronously or sometimes in a big webinar.

Right.

Like with a group style setting.

So you're really talking about the person.

So I think all those different things are great.

It sounds like you do have some people that have had success just kind of bringing this, you know, internally and maybe surprised that their company actually paid, you know, to do something because I imagine that on the company, what is the company getting?

They're getting, you know, again, somebody that can really get to know, you know, each individual manager as them, you know, what do they need?

What are their strengths and weaknesses?

Like, what do they need to like.

Because you have a different plan for each person.

Right.

You can't, you know, sometimes offer universal.

It's not that those things aren't good.

Right.

Like those courses, those trainings, but it's, it's supplementing it with something that's more personalized to the individual manager.

Right.

And they're, you know, kind of what they specifically need.

Like that I think is what the company is buying into.

Right?

Yeah, well, and it's over time.

So I typically work with folks for six months, which means that over six months we also can put a plan in place.

What are the things that, you know, are going to be coming up that you want to prepare for?

So that includes performance, conversations, feedback conversations, advocacy conversations, capacity planning, conversations, hiring conversations.

A lot of what's going to happen is going to happen through conversations.

And I, you know, I have also had the experience, experience of coming into a company leading a highly engaging, really fun group training, like a day long intensive.

And those are awesome for team building.

Those can be really fun for learning.

But I also know that people will forget a lot of what they've learned in those experiences.

So having that period of time broken out starts to build the skill and the momentum so that it starts to become more integrated and they can start to see more of that positive effect.

And I think what a lot of people don't realize is that the fear is if I ask my work to sponsor me or to support me in getting coached, I'm afraid it will reflect badly on me.

I'm afraid my boss will think I.

Don'T know what I'm doing, I'm weak.

And that's the fear.

Especially if you're a high performer and then you get promoted to this leadership role, because that happens a lot.

And then people realize, I don't know how to know if I'm doing a good job.

Like, how do I.

What's the metric to know if I'm being a good manager?

Is it if my people are happy?

But what if I make a decision and people aren't happy but it's the right decision?

You know, like, there's so much that can be really stressful, especially if you're a very like high achieving person.

What's the metric of success when you're a new manager?

So helping folks to clarify that for themselves and then realize, oh, actually part of your work is to identify what's the need that will make things better, what's the resource or the approach that will help you do that most effectively.

And then remember, your boss wants you to succeed.

And if you come with your plan for your professional development, you're actually doing your boss a favor because now they don't have to try to decide and figure out what that will be.

There might already be budget set aside for learning and development.

And even if there isn't, there might be budget someplace else that your manager or your HR business partner might be delighted to use for this purpose.

And sometimes people don't realize they're actually bringing a solution to their manager, to their organization, to their HR business partner by saying, hey, here's the thing I want to get better at.

And I've identified the best way for me to do that.

You're actually helping them to do their job?

Yeah, I mean, so much that like, okay, so I can't let you leave without, you know, kind of some of these tough conversations.

Because you brought up one like, you know, the fear is like, hey, if I'm asking for this, it's looking bad on me, but it's actually helping them, you know, the person above you kind of get more out of you.

Right.

And perform in their role.

But what about that?

Yeah, like, you know, the person above you, or maybe even person, Maybe these are different Strategies, maybe there's some similarities, but person, let's say above you in the organizational hierarchy and then even your team, It's a conversation that you know the person is going to get maybe defensive at or like, they won't.

It's going to be hard feedback for them to hear.

Just thinks something that maybe is rubbing you the wrong way.

And we can all think of those difficult conversations at work or difficult situations that maybe we just let fly under the rug and we don't talk about it because we're just like, it's nothing good.

Like, we've come to the situations maybe you've been in.

Kim, anything I say isn't going to help this situation.

Nothing good will come.

Right.

We just kind of just go, okay, let's just use that as a data point and then move on and then see if it comes up again.

But then it just ends up coming again worse.

So how do you coach people on ways to deliver feedback either above them or to the people they're working for on their team?

Yeah.

So first we do want to look at the power dynamic.

If it's the person above you or even two levels up, we want to have a, you know, we want to understand kind of like, what is the personality?

What is the person care most about?

What is it?

If they're going to get spiky and defensive.

Let's see if we can understand, like, what might be behind that.

So the more we can understand what they care about, the better we can position what we want to share with the person that's on our team.

Then part of that is about understanding.

The reason I'm telling you this is because I want to see you grow and thrive.

And this might be hard to hear, and I actually really love that as an opener.

This might be hard to hear.

Yeah.

But the reason I'm telling you this is because I want you to know it's important that you hear this, and it's important that you hear this from me now and not in six months when I'm giving you your performance review.

You.

Right.

It's like that's part of the job, you know?

And that will happen.

Sometimes you'll have someone and they think they're doing an awesome job and you're thinking, actually, no.

Like, we have different ideas about what that success metric looks like and we need to kind of reset and recalibrate here.

So if we're doing it from this sense of, I'm doing this with you, I'm doing this for you, I'm not doing this to come in as, you know, like a critic, but actually, because there's something I'm seeing, I'm not sure if you're seeing, but we need to figure this out.

That can help to create more of that willingness to receive it.

Like, it's a very strategic landscape for that conversation, whether it's to the person who reports up to you or whether it's to the person a level or two you above that you're wanting to influence.

Yeah.

I once saw Disrupt hr.

It's kind of like the TED talks for HR and the woman, her title was Stop Feeding Shit Sandwiches.

And we all know that the.

Hey, this is what you're doing well, here's what you could work on, but here's what you're doing well, you know, and it's, like, kind of confusing.

What do I do with it?

Like, am I doing well?

Like, but it's like, you know, because the manager is afraid of, like, being seen as, like, a bad guy or something like that.

And so they kind of like, yeah, it's predictable.

It's, you know, you're losing sight about, like, what you need to work on.

The person just hears the good and not the bad, you know, and you know that you kind of leading with like, hey, this is direct.

Like, this is going to be hard to hear.

It's going to.

It's going to sting a little bit.

But I'm doing it for you.

I'm doing it because this I'm doing because is such a great word.

You know, I'm doing it because, you know, I want to see you succeed.

I know that, you know, if you heard this six months from now and, you know, things got worse, it would be even worse to hear this.

Right?

And like, so, like, people know, again, if you can, you know, kind of explain, you know, the information, you know, again, in their interest, just like you were doing it with the yoga teaching and all these other things, it lands a lot more effectively, you know, just.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And sometimes, too, I like to remind people that when we're communicating, especially if we're communicating up, it's not always because there's a change we need to see right away, but it's because we're planting a seed and creating a record.

So, for example, if you ask your work to sponsor you to go to a conference or work with a coach or do some continuing education, and the work says, no, it's not in the budget.

No, we can't do it, you're still building the record of taking that personal responsibility and advocating for what it is that you want.

So if it's not available this quarter.

Okay, great.

Well, when will we be planning for professional development for next year?

Can we start to plan for that?

So it's in place?

Right?

Like, you're starting to build that record of.

Yeah, I've continued to be very actively engaged and finding out what are the skills I need in order to be ready for that next level.

You're starting to have that conversation.

That's a good thing.

Even if they say no initially, you're still building that relationship and planting seeds for what you'd like to see grow in the future.

Yeah.

And it's like, I've heard sometimes I'm an ideas person.

I'm always thinking of new ideas and bringing them up.

I'm like, and if they don't take them, I'm like, what's the deal?

Am I not selling this right?

But sometimes, hey, you know, it's timings off or like, this isn't.

They know it's like, not going to be a priority right now, but could be in the future.

And they just want to, you know, kind of, like, make sure to, you know, kind of let me know that they want to help me.

They're all about bringing my idea up, but they kind of, you know, read the room.

They know that maybe this is not going to be something that gets done, but, like, they also want to, like, give importance to my idea.

So I've heard people, I've heard managers and even a current one say, you know, hey, I just.

I love it.

This is something I'm going to advocate for.

I'm going to, you know, bring up all these points, but I want to also give you, let you know the context of what's happening.

And I don't want to promise something I can't deliver on, you know, something like that.

So not as opposed to, oh, my God, that's amazing.

That's great.

I'm going to freaking.

I'm going to fight for you.

I'm going to, you know, do everything I can, then, oh, I'm sorry, it didn't happen.

And it's like, what, Why?

I thought you said it was great, like, what's going on here?

So.

Yeah, it's just more transparent that way, I find, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's the other side of what you just said a moment ago, which is that, like, no, I can't do this.

But here's why.

Here's the because.

Offering that context.

Yeah.

Well, Kim, I.

I know we're kind of winding down here.

So I.

I love speaking with you.

I just.

I take away so much in that, like, just even here, your voice.

I don't know if people have told you, they just intonation of your voice.

Very calming.

I feel calm, you know, like a, you know, almost like a therapy session now.

But, you know, I.

I can just see your brains constantly working of, you know, creating a very peaceful environment.

Easing someone, you said in the beginning, it's like, you know, creating possibilities, you know, helping Simmons see possibilities, which is so interesting because it's the opposite of, you know, solving someone's problem or, you know, coming up with solutions.

Right.

You know, I don't think you.

You just don't take me as someone that comes into something like, I'm going to fix this.

Right.

I'm going.

I'm going to listen to this.

I'm going to sit here and.

And understand this and ask questions and being curious about this.

But I'm not here to change this.

I'm not here to, you know.

Yeah.

Like, revolutionize this.

I'm going to offer an idea, a different perspective.

Not the idea or the perspective, you know.

Yeah.

I think of it like a gardener.

Right.

A gardener is not trying to fix the plants.

It's trying to create an environment in which the plants can grow, and they're designed to grow.

So how can we tend to the environment or the soil to help what's coming through and wants to be there?

Like, how do we help facilitate the thriving and the growth?

It's a really different mindset that I'm going to fix this.

Right.

It's subtle, but it's.

It's a.

It's a.

It's a different approach.

Yeah.

Well, I like Kim.

We end off every podcast with a fun question about you because I believe, you know, everyone has these superpowers.

Everyone's unique.

You know, the more that we get to know about our uniqueness, the more we can connect.

And so this is just a fun question about Kim.

So, Kim, if I asked your boyfriend, your closest family members, your closest friends, you know, what's just something that is so totally Kim, this could be something that you do all the time, that only you do.

This could be an event.

But if I ask them what is just something that would only and could only happen to you, or something that is just so totally you, what would they tell me about Kim Nicol?

I think they would tell you that I am the person that when I'm on a bus or on a train or, you know, waiting at the airport, I'm the person that people come to when they need directions.

Like, there's something about me.

And, you know, I register, I think, as just, like, approachable.

And even if I don't know how to get there, I can probably point you in the right direction.

So people come to me for directions, and very often it creates, like, this really, really beautiful moment of connection where the person ends up a little bit better off than when they first.

That's funny.

They're like, she looks like she knows where she's going, or she's.

I love it.

I don't know if that's like, a face or, you know, a look, but I love it.

It's the vibe.

It's the vibe.

Like, I'm.

I don't feel afraid asking.

She's not going to, you know, make me feel dumb.

I love it.

That's.

That's great.

Well, Kim, if I'm ever in San Francisco.

If you're ever in San Francisco area and you bump in, you're going to recognize.

I mean, you're just listening to the voice, but if you're listening to the conversation next to you could be like, oh, you know, I heard you on the sub by being human.

And how do you get to the Trocadero or whatever?

I don't know.

Absolutely.

All right, well, Kim, how can people then just want to connect with you, learn more about becoming a great manager, your podcast, and find out more about you.

Where should we send them?

Yeah, you can go to the new manager podcast wherever you listen to your podcasts or follow me on LinkedIn.

I post there about work and life and how to be more mindful and human and nag the gating, all of it.

I love it.

Well, Kim, you certainly taught me a great deal.

I'm looking forward to continuing the relationship and learning from you in the future.

So thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you for coming on today.

It's such a pleasure.

Alex, it was great chatting with you.

Awesome.

Hey, gang, this is Alex.

Thank you so much for making it to the end.

If you heard a quote you liked or got a little bit of value, drop me a line or a comment.

It means the world to me.

We have great human beings throughout all walks of life every single week who sell through the lens of human connection.

And I'll see you on the next episode of Sell by Being Human.

Thank you.