Sonia Meza-Leon: Hey, Scarlett is we are back to talk about
our next true crime episode.
And I am so excited about this episode because this is about one
of my favorite, um, musicians.
And.
Uh, of all time.
And I say that because I absolutely think that his music is fantastic.
I, um, he's, you know, he has been a part of some very important,
um, you know, music in the past.
And he was really, in my opinion, what I, my note about this.
Um, is that he was the funk, a tear innovator.
And I know that there are other people who could probably get that as,
um, sort of recognition as well say Bootsy Collins, or are maybe prints.
But I think that Rick James was the forerunner in the.
innovation department.
Um, you know, he had some incredibly popular music in the past, so, but, uh,
Brittney, as we will talk about, he also had some, uh, some issues we will say.
And, um, he has some, um, you know, true crime in his past.
He was convicted, uh, a couple of times of some serious crimes, in my opinion.
I don't want us to, uh, gloss over nor, um, sort of dismiss.
So we're going to chat a little bit about what the, about those crimes,
but first we're going to talk a little bit about Rick James and his history,
because I think the beginning of his life was really interesting and he
knew a lot of interesting people.
So, you know, without further ado, Rick James I E James Ambrose Johnson Jr.
Was born February 1st, 1948, better known by his stage name.
Rick James pretty.
How do you know, how do you James?
Cause I, well, I lived through the time when he was, his
music was really important.
So you probably heard it after.
Brittney Sherman: Well, yes.
So, uh, I know Rick James based off of.
Really one song.
Sonia Meza-Leon: Oh my gosh.
Well, there's another song that you will probably remember that he did.
And that was given to me, baby, which is another one to my favorite songs.
I know, I
Brittney Sherman: do know that one too, but I know him for.
Uh, the four, the first one.
Yeah, I know for a super freak.
Uh, and then I also know, and we'll talk about this later.
We also know, or I also know him from Chappelle show and it's
funny because I didn't even watch Chappelle show, but it was so iconic
when he was featured on there.
And Dave Chappelle's apparently spot on characterization of him
and his famous catch for AEs.
I'm
Sonia Meza-Leon: Rick James bitch, which, uh, I think it's consistent
with him throughout his life.
He, um, you know, is no longer living, but he, as I said, he was
born in 1948 in Buffalo, New York.
And he began his musical career pretty early.
Um, in his teenage years, he really felt like that he was,
um, you know, he had a gift.
He, and he did have a gift.
Brittney Sherman: That's true.
But before he started and before he got into music, He's ventures into criminal
life started as early as age nine.
Sonia Meza-Leon: Yes.
And a lot of that was because his mother was a numbers runner
actually for the mob in New York.
So he witnessed a lot of different things.
Um, and you know, this was, I mean, Hey, I, I get to give it to her.
You know, she's raising kids, she's going to do whatever she needs to do.
But for him, this, this model, his, his life a bit, and
certainly set him on a path.
Now, I think he spent a lot of his time.
You know, a lot of his life, you know, not committing criminal acts.
Certainly he did some important things, but, you know, I think
that he may have made some choices throughout his life that, um, were
affected by that early modeling.
Not to, not to be all proper about it, but, you know, he saw
some things happening and he was like, ah, you know, his, his moral
character may have been in question.
Let's just say, well,
Brittney Sherman: sure.
But I have to say, I was surprised how much he was.
Uh, how, how many criminal acts he really was involved in?
I didn't know much about them.
I knew a lot about the drugs, but I know about the criminal acts, uh, because yeah,
so not only was his mother involved in running the numbers, uh, which if you're
not familiar with that, look it up.
It's kind of like a type of illegal lottery.
It's really kind of fascinating to read about.
Uh, but he was part of that.
They're out.
And he was only nine years old at the time.
So that's very early, uh, age.
Of course, can't say that he really had any control over that.
His mom was doing that as opposed to working a and working another job, doing
what she could to make ends meet because his father was no longer in the picture.
Uh, his father left.
Sonia Meza-Leon: Uh, but
Brittney Sherman: with, with his mother, he, she, she.
Well, she was trying to do the best that she could.
She also sent him to a private Catholic school and he attended elementary school
at a private school and was expecting.
Several times.
I don't know how you get expelled several times from one school, because I've always
thought once you get expelled, it means you're you're out out, but he was expelled
at least three times from the same Catholic school for causing trouble, uh,
not criminal per se, but he showed early signs of not being the most stand up.
And, uh, the best kid that may preview what.
Later do, uh, an
Sonia Meza-Leon: adulthood.
So as we said, you know, he was in various bands, you know, he hung out early on,
I think with Neil young and they were in a band together for quite a while.
He actually went to Canada in 1964, um, because he did not want to be drafted.
And unfortunately, um, he formed, well, not unfortunately, but he, he
formed a band in Canada apparently.
Um, the minor burrs, which I think is a really interesting name, but that was so.
Brittney Sherman: He keep in mind though.
He went to Canada because he actually enlisted when he was 16 years old
in the United States military.
And he enlisted as a reservist and he.
Fled to Canada when the United States, uh, went to Vietnam and the
Vietnam war broke out and he D he didn't want to be sent into war.
So he officially went AWOL by fleeting to Canada, which is of
course a felony in military court.
And so he was a fugitive on the run when he started his musical.
Sonia Meza-Leon: Ah, okay.
Got it.
So, yeah.
Was he avoiding?
Oh, so he was avoiding being sent, but he was already, he wouldn't be dressed.
Oh, he was a reservist.
So he could be drafted into the full-time military.
Exactly.
Okay.
Brittney Sherman: Yeah.
So he essentially signed up to be a reservist, so that way he wouldn't be
drafted ultimately, but once the Vietnam war picked up, he could be moved up from
being a reservist to full-time like.
Sonia Meza-Leon: Got it.
So again, as we said, he formed the band, the Mynah birds, and they got a recording
deal with Motown records in 1966.
Um, that means that he was 22 years old.
And as you said, Brittany, his career had to be halted a bit because he had
to go deal with his one-year prison term that he received for the draft charges.
So.
After he was released, he left New York and then he moved to California where
he, he really ultimately started, uh, a rock and a funk group, uh, or multiple
groups in the sixties and seventies.
So he, this was where he really formed, you know, what we know to
be Rick James before he really was.
And he started the band stone city band.
Before he did that.
He was really a rock and roll guy.
He actually wasn't like a funk guy.
He wasn't an R and B guy.
He was really, you know, truly rock and roll.
So when he started the stone city band, they, you know, I think they really
found their stride and, and they, the release the album come and get.
That had, um, that was in 1978 and had hits on it like you and I and Mary
Jane and Mary Jane of course, was about marijuana and anybody who says that
they didn't realize that that song wasn't about marijuana is bananas.
I think some of the records labels, well, the record labels are like,
oh, well we didn't even know.
We thought he was talking about a lady.
I'm like, no, come on.
Yes.
Because Rick James was really, really, um, Outward about his marijuana use.
He has giant, like we know joints on the stage next to him.
There were times where he was threatened to be, um, you know,
essentially arrested because he had pot on stage and wouldn't stop smoking.
And, you know, he was encouraged as council
Brittney Sherman: goers to
Sonia Meza-Leon: join him.
Yeah.
And I was just watching Brittany, the, uh, I got my information from a variety of.
And some of which I think that we're meant to be comedic, but I still, there
were real interviews with Rick James and whether he was kidding or not, I think
it gave some insight into his personal.
This one I was just watching was about, uh, was the Charlie
Murphy, Dave Chappelle thing.
Um, it was, you know, I mean, really funny, but so, you know, some of these
things that seem too weird to be true, I think were actually true because
when you're working at that level, I mean, he was friends with Eddie Murphy.
He was friends with Stevie wonder.
I think Stevie wonder was the one who told him to call himself Rick James.
And, um, you know, he was cause I think he was going by Ricky before that.
Something and, and yeah, and I think Stevie wonder was right.
You know, he, Rick James spent a lot of time with a lot of important people.
He, um, you know, he, he, I mean, he was a very, very famous man.
And if you watch any of the interviews with him, he knew it.
I mean, you know, he really expected everybody to know who he was.
He had a little.
Stage presence, we'll call it.
And, um, you know, he hung with some very famous people.
He dated Linda Blair for a couple of years, which I think
is a really interesting, weird, I thought that tote, I thought
Brittney Sherman: that too, and yeah.
She actually got pregnant by his child.
Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah.
Which he was really sad about because she did not have that child.
And so he was really sad that he didn't know at the time.
Um, but they were together for a year or two.
So that's a stage of time.
It wasn't in passing.
No, but you know, this was him.
I mean, if you w another source that I took a lot of information from, and
I thought was really insightful and.
Thoughtful actually was tales from the tour bus.
The Mike judge show where he takes audio, um, and some live action interviews and
he animated, he puts it to animation and it is so good because it is it's good.
It's so good.
I mean, There are a lot of episodes about country singers and things like that.
But there's the second season is where he gets into more R and B
and funk and broadens it a bit.
And he does a two-parter episode about Rick James and a large part of the second.
You know, the second part is about Rick James and his.
Contentious relationship with prince.
So I want to talk about that a bit because I, I know you have prints.
So I know, I know there was a time remember where, you know, Rick James was
on the top of the world and he, before,
Brittney Sherman: before we get into prince, I think, I think we're jumping
over a few things that, um, are maybe indicative of his, his criminal past.
Sonia Meza-Leon: Oh, sure.
Well, I mean, through this entire situation, through this, his entire
life, we know that he did a lot of drugs.
So if that's what you're referring to,
Brittney Sherman: but that's not what I'm referring to.
Sonia Meza-Leon: I'm referring to.
I think that consistently we can all agree.
And Rick James will be the first to tell us that he did
a lot of drugs throughout his.
Um, cocaine is a powerful drug and marijuana is awesome.
And I wouldn't be surprised if he smoked pot a lot just to
kind of regulate himself, but he did a lot of, lot of drugs.
He was on drugs.
Brittney Sherman: Drugs is like, in my opinion, so minor in comparison,
uh, because yeah, he, uh, I mean, just to just touch on it at one point,
he said he was, he spent like $7,000 a week for five years on cocaine.
And, uh, his tour bus was like a cloud of marijuana smoke all the time.
Uh, but regardless of that, part of it, he, uh, You mentioned, which is
so totally true, how he is such a, you know, he, he knew his fame, he
thought a lot of himself, he kind of, he felt like he was on top of the world.
And to a certain extent, he really was like, he was the, he was the
king of funk at, you know, in the late seventies, early eighties.
Yes.
He was the pioneer for all of this.
And he had some really powerful and influential friends.
But to your point previously about Stevie, wonder how he.
Yeah.
He's the one that essentially told him to call himself Rick James.
He went through a few different names before he settled on Rick James, because
he first was convicted of being a draft Dodger for going AWOL in the military.
And he spent a year in military prison.
Then he was arrested again for a second military charge, but was
able to get, uh, essentially.
Get off on that charge because he knew someone in it.
And at the time before he even moved to Los Angeles, he was trying to
go to Motown and Motown was very interested in him, but because of his
past with the military and the stuff that he got into as a kid, Montan
didn't want anything to do with him.
So he actually changed his name two or three times before
he settled on Rick James.
So even though he was very confident and powerful and he knew he was so famous.
There was, I still think this other side to him that he was, he was
constantly running from his past because.
Of all the things that he left
Sonia Meza-Leon: in his wake.
Well sort of, I mean, I think that there's a point where it
didn't matter what happened in his past because he was Rick James.
I mean, once you got to that point, definitely.
I mean, and that it got to that point rather quickly.
I mean, Rick James was pretty much.
Pretty quick in his life.
You know, he, he was, um, he achieved fame at a young age, you know, he,
again, he was a musician, he was in bands when he was a teenager.
So he knew this area very well.
He signed with Motown and at the age of 22.
So yeah, that's super young.
Yeah.
He was already there.
Like he went from zero to 60 and I, and that is a tough one for someone
who's doing drugs because it's awfully hard for you to regulate when.
Events like significant events happening in your life, but even if
you're the vents in your life or, you know, good, positive or negative
traumatic events are really, um, hard for people who have drug addictions,
um, they're triggers, you know, so even the best situations can trigger a
drug addict into, you know, a spiral.
But, um, yeah, he.
He definitely realized.
And he definitely understood that he had to make some changes and to get around
things, to get where he wanted to go.
But he always was, you know, I think that he was dead set, that he was
going to be famous and successful in his life, no matter what he had to
Brittney Sherman: do.
I think that's probably true.
And, uh, one of the things that, uh, I don't know if you plan on
coming back to it or not, but that you mentioned to me and I, I looked
up a little bit, was his loose connection with the Manson family also.
Sonia Meza-Leon: Well, it wasn't the Manson family.
He had a connection with, it was the, uh, Sharon Tate family because
he reached, James was friends with Jay Sebring and Rick James
was supposed to be at the house.
He was supposed to be at the Sharon Tate home with JC bring
the night of the Manson murders.
But, uh, apparently he got scared.
Um, shockingly, he did some drugs and whatever happened and he
didn't, he was too messed up to go.
Yeah.
Which it sounds like that that happened on, um, pretty frequently, you know,
but again, you've got these really powerful people, as we know, in
Hollywood and in music and whatever, and they just there's no, um, They're
not held to the same standard that the rest of us are because of this one.
I've been a regular person.
They would have kicked him to the curb.
Um, you know, and his friends, I think kept him safe too.
He was very good friends with Eddie Murphy.
He, again, smokey Robinson.
He, uh, he was the one.
So I want to go back because I want to talk a little bit about the Rick
James and sort of his progression.
And I think that's where we go back and talk about prince, because there was a
time where Rick James was on tour, very popular and prince was just coming out.
And so this would have been around the, this would have been in the seventies and.
You know, Rick James really saw himself as, as an iconic figure and
an actual, he really saw himself as an important African-American figure.
And he really thought it was important that he get, you know,
sort of the credit for that.
He, he had somehow or another had seen, um, prince and he asked prince
and he asked another, I think, another band to come on tour with him.
And I think maybe it was, uh, the other band that was on tour with, I forget
who it was, but it was somebody else that he had to come on tour with him.
Um, shoot.
Not Sheely.
We'll figure that one out later, Rick James asked prince
to go on tour with them.
Um, you know, all that's fantastic for prince because he gets all this exposure
and, um, he, you know, of course kills it because he's prince now, Rick James
starts getting, uh, jealous of prince and starts and re you gotta remember,
let's step back for a second here.
Um, the Rick James band, the stone city band, this was a band.
Five or six, I don't recall.
Six foot tall or over black men with giant braids.
And he asked his band to wear those braids.
And they finally agreed because he said that he wanted them
all to look like warriors.
You know, I think that it's important to understand that he realized pretty
early on that his performance and the way he looked and the way he conveyed
himself was important for him as, as an African-American African-American men.
And it was a powerful statement that he was trying to make.
He wanted some recognition, you know, he wanted to be respected and I
think he was respected for his music.
Certainly he did some, some really great things.
So again, prince goes on tour with him.
Then prince and Rick James start getting into this competition.
You know, they, again, Rick James feels threatened by this.
So prince prince in my opinion is fantastic.
And I, and I'm sorry, Rick James, but I feel like prince is far more, you
know, uh, you know, talented, let's just say his body of work as much better.
And it's probably because he was not as focused on these other
distractions of Rick James.
Right.
So prince started a side band with his friend Morris day called the time.
And then so did Rick James, Rick started a side band to compete with them, but
his side band was called like the do rags or something, which is that's
exactly what it was name horrible.
And then prince started a girl's band, which was vanity six.
So in turn, Rick James starts a girl's band called the Mary
Jane girls and the Mary Jane.
They were successful.
Um, that was Joanne.
I don't recall her last name, but I thought I really
liked the Mary Jane girls.
I liked a couple of their songs.
I thought they were kind of awesome.
That was very popular, like the Miami club scene and like the early
nineties, um, you know, the Mary Jane girls and the Tina Marie was
also a big supporter of Rick James.
And he wrote songs where he wrote multiple songs for her.
He wrote a couple of songs for the temptations and then also smokey room.
So, you know, he, he could do good things when he put his mind to it.
The part that I thought was really interesting was, and you know, for a
lot of reasons was his relationship with Eddie Murphy, because as you can, if I
would highly suggest watching the Charlie Murphy tales from the, you know, whatever.
Brittney Sherman: Each or Hollywood story on Chappelle's show.
Sonia Meza-Leon: It's fantastic.
Good.
Because I feel like that that's the re a realistic view of what Eddie Murphy's
relationship with, with Rick James was, you know, and Rick James went so far
as to write and produce that God awful song that Eddie Murphy, um, actually
performed party all the time, which we, if you remember this song, if you
don't remember the song, look it up.
It's amazing.
Rick James is in the video.
It is.
I watched
Brittney Sherman: the video last night.
Sonia Meza-Leon: God.
Awful.
Like I so bad.
And my God, the song has got awful.
I don't care about the video, but no, I know the songs terrible.
Eddie Murphy.
I love Eddie Murphy.
I think he's incredibly funny, but man, he needs to not, not foray
into a musical, whatever it's
Brittney Sherman: party all the time was Rick James is attempt
to have a party song in recent.
So prince is party like it's 1999.
Sonia Meza-Leon: Yes, absolutely.
Everything that, that, you know, Rick James was doing after he
met prince was in response to.
And it's success.
The other thing that you have to remember about prince and also Michael
Jackson and Rick James was the Vic.
James was really offended this right around the time where at T V came out
and, um, you know, they re MTV, wouldn't play Rick James, his videos and Ray MTV
will say, well, they were too vulgar.
They were offensive.
And some might say that they were, but they would play prince and
they would play Michael Jackson.
Now it's hard not to play prince and Michael Jackson because
they're so freaking popular.
But the other thing is that prince had a movie prince had purple rain.
People wanted to see prince, and I love that movie and I didn't
find that movie offensive at all.
I mean, I, I, I'm not saying prince is a good day.
You know, and under the, under the cherry moon was another booth, but I don't care
because I really like watching prince.
So there was something about his personality and I always felt that
there was an innocence to prince and I always thought there was,
um, I don't ever feel like that.
He was a person who, in my opinion, sort of promoted violence and.
Honestly, I'd love that he was just kind of like this kind of funk, funky,
like, you know, romantic hippie guy, you know, I mean, he was, um, I don't know.
Anyway, I just, I I'm endeared to him for sure.
Um, but it very interesting, you know, the Rick James was very pissed.
He was pissed.
Prince and Michael Jackson, he's like, look, you know, there's,
you guys shouldn't be on MTV.
You know, you should be supporting your fellow black man and boy Connie,
because they won't play my videos.
And, um, apparently prince and Michael Jackson did not agree with that.
You know, there's probably some truth across the board to all the
different, different challenges.
Let's just say, because principals in a knee or a prince, uh, Rick
James was an easy, easy guy to get along with and he was very,
you know, open and he didn't say.
You know, he wasn't slick, you know, when he talked, I
mean, he would call on anybody.
He just, I think it was a little different than what than to be really wanted to
be promoting, you know, from that side.
So it was, it was a bummer, but, uh, there's some good interviews, even in that
tales, from the tour bus, from the Mike judge thing, there's some cool interviews
where Rick James talks about that with the issues with MTV, it's worth a watch.
You know, but the prince thing and the Rick James, obviously
prince went on to do great things.
And Rick James sort of spiraled and sort of went downhill.
Um, you know, from there.
Brittney Sherman: Would I, what I took from it in tales from the tour bus they
show, which I believe is probably totally accurate when prince was opening for
Rick James, Rick James would stand on the side of the stage and watch prince.
And then when Rick James was performing, prince was standing on
the opposite side of the stage and watch Rick James and they pushed each
other and they motivated each other.
And what I took from that is prince took that as.
He's pushing me to another level to succeed and I'm going
to step up to that level.
But I took that Rick James looked at prince as this guy is encroaching
in on my fame and he's a threat.
And instead of using it to motivate himself, he actually started
down more of a downward slope.
Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, he was the incumbent, so that's principle, you know,
principles the up and coming there.
So that's, that's the natural progression.
I think, um, it was hard for Rick James.
You know, he fell out of favor.
He upset a lot of people.
Again, MTV did not, you know, sort of promote his videos.
And, um, he continued to do a lot of drugs.
Um, his it's his mainstream success ultimately peaked in around 1985.
He released an album called glow and then apparently he was on a
team, which I was not aware of.
Uh, and I was on the show 18.
I do know the showy team when I'm not interested in watching any
of, I don't think I ever watched.
Yeah.
I didn't know he was on that show.
That's interesting.
Yeah, it sounds like he made an appearance and I don't know why that would be like
a stellar moment in his career, but maybe it was the beginning of the end.
I don't know.
Um, and then remember here's what's important.
Remember about Rick James, a lot of people.
First off Rick James, number one, any Grammys for any, any songs that he
produced, um, and release on his own, he did however, win a Grammy with MC hammer
when MC hammer sampled super freak.
So probably, yeah.
That could have ever happened to Rick.
James was an MC hammer, did that.
It was really important.
And I also thought it was really important that MC hammer give
Rick James credit for that.
Because so many times these days people are sampling and stealing and
they just, um, nothing ever happens.
And he'd go to court forever.
I mean, look what happened with vanilla ice?
You know, these, these, these fricking trials play out forever and they
go on and on and everybody loses.
So I thought that was really great.
Um, you know, The MC hammer was able to allow that to happen.
And then in the 1990s, um, it sounds like this is when Rick James his
career really went off the rails.
He, the beginning of the end, in my opinion, he had legal issues.
Uh, apparently he was convicted of two separate instances.
So he was convicted of for two separate instances of kidnapping
and torturing two separate.
While under the influence of crack cocaine and he actually
served three years, um, for that.
Now let's talk a little bit about that because yes, I, I am going to, I, I tried
to find information about this case and what I found with Brittany, I told you
was that it seems like that th these, these crimes that he committed were sort
of the side note to, you know, Even this article that I read, which I'm going
to refer to, it was written in, um, it was published in the Los Angeles times.
So it was written by Aaron Curtis and Jack Cheevers.
And it was from August 3rd, 1991.
And the headline reads singer Rick James' girlfriend arrested on charges
of torturing woman crime, the couple re allegedly burn the victim with a crack
cocaine pipe and sexually abused her.
So, okay.
That's an interesting headline.
Um, the.
What's really, I don't think that it's fair to just sort of glaze over that.
I think it's really, um, in my opinion, a bit offensive, and it
sounds like that this was may have been typical behavior for Rick James.
Um, but it was sort of looked over and I'm not going to equate Rick James
to, um, R Kelly per se, because I think that was a lot more criminal.
What R Kelly used to do.
But I think that there were things that probably happened in Rick James life that.
Others would think back on and think that they probably should have done something
or what he was doing was illegal.
I think that he had another woman come forward that said that he
raped her when she was in a boarding school or in a school in Buffalo yet.
And we'll get to that in a little bit.
Yeah.
And that happened early on in the seventies.
So the crime that Rick James was convicted of with his girlfriend,
apparently she was 23 or 24.
She was 21 at the time when he won and they were at his house in the
Hollywood Hills and essentially he was arrested for imprisoning and
torturing this 24 year old woman with a hot cocaine pipe over three days.
Uh, the actual crimes that he was convicted of were, uh, Let's see
suspicion of assault, the deadly weapon, false imprisonment, correct?
Worst oral copulation making terrorist threats and furnishing
narcotics to this 24 year old woman.
Apparently this was not the S this was not the first incident.
Um, there was also, um, some, some, uh, key something brought against him
for doing something similar to a music executive, a young music exhibit.
Brittney Sherman: So he, uh, I think so he was, he held her captive for
three days and ultimately I think the suspicion turned out to be accurate.
You know, he drugged her, he forced her to do sex acts on his girlfriend.
Uh, Tonya.
Sonia Meza-Leon: Tanya has her jazzy
Brittney Sherman: Hejazi.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Uh, and, uh, of course false imprisonment.
Oh, oh, strange.
I, I found this to be a really strange crime because what.
Oh, I guess, what do you get out of any crime, but holding someone for three days,
forcing drugs on them and forcing them to perform sex acts on your girlfriend.
I mean, what is the, what was the point of that?
What drove him to that?
That's what I don't understand.
Like it was just such a bad high.
Was it such a drug induced motivation?
That's what I don't
Sonia Meza-Leon: understand.
Well, here's what I think that let's just call it what it is.
This was in the time or Rick James career.
If this would have happened in the height of his career, this
wouldn't have been a crime.
And I can guarantee you that this probably happened frequently.
You know where I mean, that's what it looks like to me.
They, he would be with multiple women.
Um, he would do whatever he wanted, you know, you know, get over.
You're a bitch, I'm Rick James or whatever.
So he had a history of this.
I think that it was just, this moment was, you know, Uh, this, somebody came forward
and finally said, you know enough with it.
I froze.
So let's go.
What do
Brittney Sherman: you think this is before we go deeper?
So you think that essentially this was, this was a pattern he had done
this many times before, but he got caught because his level of fame.
Dwindling and maybe this person felt more comfortable coming forward, or
maybe this person was now believed because he wasn't as famous and
untouchable as he was previously,
Sonia Meza-Leon: this would have been covered up.
Okay.
So here's the, the way this went down was that James, Rick James and
his girlfriend, Tanya Hijazi were.
They met up with this girl, this 24 year old woman.
Um, apparently she was unemployed.
They met her at a party and they're like, Hey, you know, come and stay
with us at the big Hollywood Hills house, you know, with the Rick James.
Awesome.
So, you know, again, you know, luring her.
He threatened her with a gun.
He told her that he would kill her if she tried to leave.
Uh, he and the Tonya Hejazi tied her up and severely burner, um, w 20
times or so with a hot crack pipe.
And then he, like you said, he forced the victim to essentially, you
know, give oral whatever to Hijazi.
Um, while he watched again, this would be typical behavior for Rick James.
This is something that would happen probably on tour, like five times a week.
Um, and then they smoke crack and then they forced the victim to as well.
And then the girl just wanders out of the house somehow makes
her way to, um, Hospital.
And then the hospital called the police.
So she didn't call the police, the hospital.
Right.
Makes sense.
Yep.
Okay.
So if the hospital wouldn't have called the police, there's, there's, it's
unlikely that Rick James would have ever had any issues with this, but I think
for something now, what, what I think happened again, you know, I think this
was typical behavior for Rick James.
This is typical for someone who has this kind of power, is that
they're going to tell people to do whatever they want them to do.
And in that.
Those people feel overpowered.
And because they're trying to please this famous person or whatever,
they'll do whatever they want.
We've seen this time and time again with a variety of different people in power.
Um, you know, I would say Michael Jackson would probably fall into this
category where they were untouchable and they had enough money to quiet
people and buy people off and, you know, keep people from coming forward
because they would, those people would be not punished, but they would
lose their career or they would lose.
They would fall out of favor.
People.
So I do think it was a similar situation.
I think Rick James had, I mean, when you're doing crack, I guess, you
know, I mean, I don't know, you're not, probably not in your right mind
anyway, but to be a person who was doing that kind of drug or those kinds
of drugs, many drugs, and to have this all powerful feeling, you know, you're
untouchable, you can do whatever you want.
I mean, you are the king of the world.
And I think that cocaine just makes that feeling much more,
um, You know, probably prominent.
So again, you know, you're untouchable.
I.
I, I, I think this was probably common for James.
I think that he just had an unwilling participant or he had
a willing participant who went to the hospital and the hospital, you
know, made a big deal out of it.
But, and Rick James was a powerful anymore.
Powerful enough to, to sort of get, get away from this kind of thing.
I bet in back in the day, when he was powerful, I guarantee his record label
or any of his powerful friends would have probably cut, had this resolved quickly.
He would have just got dismissed and nobody would've said anything about it.
It would have been a misunder.
And
Brittney Sherman: that's very possible.
And at this point he probably, well, he was still famous in 1991.
He was certainly not at the peak of his fame and maybe he didn't have the
proper resources to buy this person off.
Uh, and he, uh, he was no longer.
Rick James, the superstar who had all these resources available to him.
Uh, and I think that actually, if you go back in again, as crazy as
it sounds, watch that Chappelle show episode, it'll speak to the people
that he upset over his life that made.
At one time would have stood up for him and helped him hide
it and cover these things up no longer wanted to do that for him.
And he didn't have that.
Sonia Meza-Leon: Well, he couldn't, you know, they couldn't,
they couldn't put themselves at risk with his behavior anymore.
And I think that's ultimately what it was.
I think that, um, you know, Again, I would say, take a look
at tales from the tour bus.
And I say that in a, I mean, I watched that, that I knew it was a comedy.
I love Mike judge, but I felt really, I thought that the guys in the,
from the band who were interviewed, I mean, there were funny as hell.
These guys, these were old, like salty, you know, like
R and B guys like funk guys.
I mean, they got it.
You know, but they, they just really struggled with
it because he was their guy.
Right.
He was the lead singer of their band.
He was there, their, you know, powerful leader and.
Ultimately, you know, he fell apart and he didn't try to take them with him, but
they could never get back together and the band can never be successful without him.
So it just led to failure.
It was really a bummer, but they talked about him thoughtfully and they talked
about him as, um, in a way that, you know, suggested that he had some demons that
he was dealing with for his entire life.
And he didn't know any other way to sort of, you know, sort of.
Execute, um, on, you know, his behavior, but I'm not as dismissive
because I don't, I don't look, I don't care how famous you are.
I don't think you should be allowed to rate people.
And I don't think there's, there's no, you know, Uh, way that you can
tell me that there's any difference.
It's like, you know, I mean, just because you're a famous no, no, it's a
suggestion or, oh, it was consensual.
Not really.
No.
I
Brittney Sherman: mean, it's not even worth entertaining that idea
because it's so despicable to think that someone might think that it's
Sonia Meza-Leon: okay.
Well, it happens all the time.
I know.
Watch like any big rock and roll band.
These people, that's how they, they operate.
You know, I mean, I'm not going to say that every musician out there in the world
is a rapist, but we know, I mean, if you know anybody who's ever been a part of
those groups, um, and I knew know some of those people, you know, they, they
take advantage of situations and people because they have the power to do so.
And then they get used to that kind of thing and, um,
it's becomes normal for them.
And it also.
I have to say it desensitizes them to what's normal and it
makes them want more of it.
Like they can't be satisfied with normal anymore.
They have to have this over the top behavior because they're so bored,
honestly, with normal behavior.
I don't think Rick James could have had a normal relationship
to be quite honest with you.
I think you needed this kind of, of, um, sort of that excitement.
Brittney Sherman: He found it exciting despicable, disgusting, awful.
And.
I, I agree.
And, you know,
Sonia Meza-Leon: he says
Brittney Sherman: in that Chappelle show episode, you says cocaine is a
powerful drug, but I think to your point, fame is a powerful drug.
Well, it's what drove him.
And that's what drives so many people like you're referring
Sonia Meza-Leon: to it.
Definitely.
And I think.
It's Chris rock said at one time.
And I thought it was really interesting.
Um, you know, but he talks about, um, infidelity in one of his like standup
shows and he says, you know, when you're famous, you know, you are, you
are only as faithful as your options.
And if you've got all the options in the world, You're going to take advantage
of those, you know, there's nobody, you know, he makes fun of it, but he's
like, there's no like, you know, nerdy white dude in the corner without the
option saying, you know, he's gonna take advantage of women because he
just doesn't have the option to do so.
But when you have the world on you're on a platter and there are
no repercussions for your actions.
Awfully hard to manage yourself if you don't have that moral construct from
a young child, honestly, I mean, and that's for a lot of reasons, economic
rubric James, um, his mom sort of gave him that modeling and in it's a
bad situation to be in, but I don't think that he was ever in a situation
to ever understand that it could be.
Going back to Rick James let's remember that this was a person who was addicted
to drugs for absolutely many, many, many years early on in his life.
So pretty much his entire life.
So I think we're expecting a lot of a person who has that kind of addiction
to be able to correct themselves.
Just it's really not possible.
I mean, they have a hard enough time just managing their daily.
You know, feelings and their daily life, and those triggers with positive
triggers or negative triggers, triggers are triggers, and they will
send these people into a spiral.
So it's, um, I'm not surprising that Rick James got there considering the path
that he took, but it's disappointing.
And it bums me out because I did appreciate his music and I did really
feel like that he was an innovator.
Um, but I, I wished that he could have been able to get a handle on himself and
use that for something more positive.
Um, instead of, you know, sort of going down this road and ultimately
he passed away of a heart attack.
I mean, he'd very sad.
Brittney Sherman: Yeah.
So, um, so if we can.
Step backwards.
Get into, uh, we, we talked about the crime, the three-day imprisonment.
He was arrested along with his girlfriend, Tanya Hijazi.
Uh, they were released on a half, a million dollars bond pending trial,
and while they were free on bond.
They did this again to a music executive in 1993, while they were awaiting trial,
uh, and held her for 20 hours this time.
But pretty much it was the same set of circumstances to kind of
what you were talking about before this wasn't a one-time thing.
This was a pattern.
This was regular.
How he operated and
Sonia Meza-Leon: it will be normal.
This is what this, this was a totally normal thing for him to do.
Brittney Sherman: And he was rearrested on this charge thankfully and ultimately
found guilty on both charges and he faced life in prison for false and prison.
But somehow I don't understand this.
He was found not guilty of that charge, but was guilty of other charges.
Uh, so he served two years in prison and while he was in prison, the second woman
who, uh, the music executive, Mary saga, She received a $2 million civil suit
payout from Rick James estate and then an additional $750,000 from a private
security firm and the hotel where she was
Sonia Meza-Leon: held back.
They must have not had enough to prove that he held her.
Hm.
Interestingly
Brittney Sherman: against her whale or something.
Right,
Sonia Meza-Leon: exactly.
Yeah.
It gets tough because you've got again,
Brittney Sherman: hang on a second.
Hang on a second.
Let me rephrase.
I, I guess I got that backwards.
He was, he was found guilty of false imprisonment.
He was found not guilty of torture and torture was the charge
that could have put him away.
Sonia Meza-Leon: Interesting.
Yeah.
I, um, wow.
Well, he got out and he did, he did a couple more things when
he got out and the ultimate.
Passed away, right?
Yeah.
Brittney Sherman: He, uh, in all, honestly, what is what I
found really kind of interesting.
Um, you know, he had these charges, he did some time in prison.
I don't think it was enough, but he tried to make a comeback.
He was featured on Chappelle show.
For an entire generation.
That's how people know of Rick James.
And he was planning a comeback tour.
Very similar to Michael Jackson was planning his comeback to, or when he died.
And in, uh, as you said, he, Rick James ultimately died of a heart attack in 2004.
Therefore his really last stint of fame was.
Chappelle's show and he was never able to regain the level of prominence
or reputation of, uh, in music that he, I think always strive
to achieve, but he never got the level of respect that he felt he
Sonia Meza-Leon: deserved.
Yeah.
I, uh, Hmm.
That's sad.
Alrighty.
Well, there you go.
Yeah.
I
Brittney Sherman: dunno, I guess I don't, because I just feel that he's, you
know, he, uh, I don't feel sad for him.
I don't think he was.
I think he was a very talented guy.
I think that he was a great artist he worked with, but you know, a lot of the
people you talked about, what are the ones I found most fascinating was Neil
young, uh, and try to collaborate with Crosby stills, young and Nash, but that
ended up not happening, but he never, he.
Want it, that level of Michael Jackson and prince fame, but he never got.
Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah.
Well, I mean, again, I think his actions sort of didn't,
you know, sort of go there.
I, I, I don't know.
I don't know if I would agree with him that he deserved that kind of fame.
Brittney Sherman: I don't think it, I don't agree that he did.
I didn't think he was nearly as
Sonia Meza-Leon: talented as they were.
Yeah.
Which is sad.
And again, you know, back to a drug addiction, maybe he wasn't because he
just couldn't overcome that addiction.
So we will never know, but, uh, An interesting case to say
the least, uh, Scarlett autos.
I know that, um, a lot of people sort of forget sometimes
about the Rick James crimes.
And I'm glad we could talk about them, Brittany, but the other parts
of it, where we talk about prince and, and the history, you know, I
would highly suggest going back and look at the, that the, the Chappelle
show and the tales from the tour bus.
Again, you know, Wikipedia actually has some really good
information about Rick James that I thought was interesting as well.
And then there's a ton of stuff on YouTube where you can watch interviews
with Rick James, talk about MTV.
So, um, I would strongly suggest it, but, you know, again, I, I'm
sad to see the downfall of people who have drug problems and, um, you
know, it's a good example of how it's just almost impossible to overcome.
It's terrible.
Brittney Sherman: I was really surprised when I started researching this because
you suggested this topic, uh, interviewed.
I think I mentioned at the start of our episode here, that I didn't realize
all of the things that he was into.
And unfortunately, I think we probably only scratched the
surface of all the things that he did that just weren't reported.
Uh, in two other quick things to wrap this up in 1998, he was accused of.
Third rape, but those charges were later dropped after he was out of prison.
And earlier this year in February of 2020, he's a state was sued by a
woman who suggested that he raped her.
As you mentioned earlier in Buffalo, when I think she was 15 years old in 1978.
So.
Unfortunately, these, uh, these charges, they keep popping up even
over 15 years after his death.
And we're learning more about the guy and, uh, hu.
My opinion really only had two hit songs, but try to leave a legacy and
his legacy is turning out to be more criminal and sorted rather than musical.
Okay.
We're gonna wrap this episode up.
Um, Everyone out there, stay healthy.
Keep social distancing.
I know it's a tough time right now.
I know it's hard to stay home when the weather's starting to get nice.
Uh, but we're trying to protect each other.
Stay healthy.
Thank you to all of our first responders.
Thanks to all of the, uh, healthcare workers.
Sonia, anything else?
Sonia Meza-Leon: Nope.
Looking forward to, uh, the release in this episode.
So stay tuned.
All right.
Brittney Sherman: Um, well, shout out to everyone in the pod
all the time podcast network.
We're glad to be part of you guys.
We are the ladies of Scarlet.