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On this episode of the Dudes and Dads podcast, we talked with Leonard Dow about diversity

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and inclusion.

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You're listening to the Dudes and Dads podcast, a show dedicated to helping men be better dudes

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and dads by building community through meaningful conversation and storytelling.

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And now here are your hosts, Joel DeMott and Andy Lee.

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Oh my goodness, Andy.

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How you doing?

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It's Sunday.

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It's Sunday.

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Sunday Sunday Sunday.

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I'm doing good.

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I'm so glad.

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glad. Hello friends. Welcome to the Dudes and Dads pop pop.

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I keep saying that Dudes and Dads podcast. Glad to have each and every one of you here.

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And whether you've ended up here on purpose or by sheer accident or some

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strange algorithmic variant, we're glad to have you. We are.

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We are super glad to have you.

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Andy, tell me what's what's going on in your world, man.

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It was a long weekend. We did a lot of stuff around the house, but a lot of good

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stuff. Okay. And I want to know what you tell me. Just tell me. I just mean,

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I need a little, I'm about ready to say just a little hint of the favorite

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activity that you were, I'm going to say forced into. I'm going to say I had to

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clean out some of my sewer. So that was not,

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yes, you've not become a real homeowner until you've had,

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either directly or indirectly have some sort of sewer issue.

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Are things, are things looking up? They're getting there. Okay.

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I'm clean back up though from I'm clean.

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Thank you so much for getting yourself together before you came in to the studio.

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Yes. Well, that's that's I'm so glad to hear that.

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Let's see. What have I been up to, Andy?

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Thank you for asking.

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I'm such a bad co-host.

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No, well, got a chance to man, I've been an itinerant preacher here recently.

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Nice, Andy. So got to.

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Yeah, I got to share a message at Shore Church in beautiful

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Ship Shawana, Indiana today. Let me just tell you, Andy, I'm a little bit salty

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about Ship Shawana. Oh, yeah. They have

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friends wherever you're listening, you know about the Dollar General phenomenon, right?

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Like these things are these things are popping up everywhere.

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They're all over the place. But today of all places in Ship Shawana, Indiana.

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They have a Dollar General Market.

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What? Market. Explain.

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It's E. I don't, I don't know. I'm gonna walk in sometime and check it out, but it's clearly,

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it's clearly snazzier than the standard dollar general. The outside looks a little bit,

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it's like a little bit brighter, a little bit fresher. So there's some sort of market thing

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going on in the dollar general in, in Shep Shawanna. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna do some research.

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I'm gonna report back. Sweet. I'm looking forward to it. Good. Good. Good. Good. Well, hey, Andy,

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You know, we are so grateful for the many people that support us.

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But specifically, we want to say thanks to our friends at Everonce Financial.

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Support for the show comes from Everonce Financial, helping members invest in

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what lasts through financial services with impact.

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More at everonce.com/machiana.

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Securities offered through Concourse Financial Group, Securities Incorporated

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member FINRA, SIPC.

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Awesome. Well, today, as I alluded to in the intro,

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So we have Leonard Dow with us from Everince.

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Leonard, welcome to the show.

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It's good to be here.

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It's good to be here.

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Thank you.

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And Leonard is reporting from his son's dorm room, which for our live viewers, we just

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wanted to clarify because it looks like Leonard has been banished to some concrete jungle

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somewhere.

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Which wouldn't be too far off the truth, but in this case, this is a show for dad.

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So we've all been sent to the basement at some point.

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Right.

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Yes, yes, yes.

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Well, Leonard, you serve as the vice president of church and community development of development

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and president of Everons Community Investment for Everons Financial.

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And now you are stationed in Philadelphia, but where are you coming to us?

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Where are you at right now?

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Yeah, thank you.

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It's good to be here.

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So right now I'm in Providence, Rhode Island.

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My son is entering his freshman year at Johnson and Wells University.

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And so my wife and I drove up about five hours from Philly to, you know, you got to get,

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you got to get the son in and the white and he's our youngest.

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So, you know, this is a tearful goodbye for my wife.

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This is our last one out of the house.

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So thoroughly enjoying it.

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Thoroughly enjoying.

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You've successfully launched your people Leonard, which I have to imagine is a rewarding

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feeling.

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They've, they've been out.

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They're not still.

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I mean, while it appears that you're living in a basement, they are not.

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That's right.

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They are out picking up whatever they got to pick up before we hit them back to Philly

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tomorrow morning.

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Beautiful.

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Beautiful.

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Well, Leonard, as we always like to do, just to start off to get to know our guests more,

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then we're going to tip to our way in.

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We'll get into the deep end of the pool soon enough, right, Andrew?

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Sure.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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- Just tell us about yourself about,

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I guess first of all, we'd love to do the dad stats

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as we like to say.

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So tell us about your family.

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- We already know he has the youngest kid

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that's in college.

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- We do, so we've started there.

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But yeah, tell us about the family.

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Whatever you wanna share with us,

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we just wanna get to know you better on that side.

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- Hey, I'll be honest, this'll be the highlight

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of my contribution to the podcast, My Family.

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So we're blessed with three children,

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My oldest Carmella, she is living in Philadelphia, an area of the city called West Philly.

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Born and raised.

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She works for a...

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Born and raised, no, it was Mount Airy, but she now, she's now in West Philly.

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And she works for a trend company out of London and does a lot of trend research around fashion and design.

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And then our middle one, Marcella, she's up in New York City or where I'm at now and down in New York City at Columbia University.

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getting her masters in speech pathology.

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And then my son, as I mentioned,

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he's a freshman here at Johnson & Wales.

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He's gonna be studying something with animals.

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Not quite sure what.

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I wasn't in on that decision, but I was in on the debit

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that came out of the account for the false investor.

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- Absolutely.

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(laughing)

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- And then my lovely wife, Rosalie.

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She, uh, Rosalie Rolondale, actually doctor Rosalie Rolondale,

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she teaches at University of Delaware in, um, in the, um,

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education department. She now, uh,

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is in more so than admin side working with the student scholars. Awesome. Um,

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the last couple of years. So yeah, so I've married up, man. I, you know,

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I've been blessed and we've been married. Um,

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it'll be 30, 33 years. I hope I'm right. Cause this is recorded, right?

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Yeah. Right. Let's sit down the record. You bet.

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You'll join the many guests, including Andy and myself, who have paused and/or second

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guest ourselves.

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Listen, I have the marriage thing down, but it's always the kids' ages that I mess up.

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I'm always like, "How old are the kids?"

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Oh, don't even.

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Don't even.

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Don't do it.

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Don't do that to me.

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Don't do that to me.

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So, yeah.

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So, and we live in Philly, living in Philadelphia, where I grew up my whole life.

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There was parts of time where I was in college and other times a year or two, but always

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a boomerang home, which has been a wonderful challenge as my wife now loves Philly, but

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she grew up in Puerto Rico.

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Okay.

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So, so, so my goal is the bucket list is to retire whenever that comes back home in Albonito,

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Puerto Rico or close to it in the later years.

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I like your life goals, man.

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That's beautiful.

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(laughing)

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- Sorry, for the record,

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I'm not playing it on doing any time.

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(laughing)

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- Yeah, yeah.

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Well, and we, our family,

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so I am, though Andy has long,

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long-term ties back to Philadelphia,

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where he's spent some significant time,

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my family's first introduction to Philly

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was, it's been a year and a half ago,

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we did not this past spring,

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but the spring before we did our,

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our family spring break in Philadelphia.

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- Well, and let me tell you this,

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Joel texted me and said,

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"Where can I get a cheesesteak?"

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And so I told him where he can go to get cheese steaks.

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That was the important thing.

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- We had the real, 'cause he did it as the deal.

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I, as a newbie, as an outsider,

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I didn't want to go to some lame cheese steak place, you know?

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Although people are like,

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"Hey, if it's cheese steak in Phil, you're probably doing okay."

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- Yeah, it's probably okay.

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- I needed the inside track though.

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And Andy took us to--

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- Now come on now, I gotta know.

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I gotta know where Andy sent you.

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- Where did I send you?

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Did I send you to Ishka Bibles or--

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- You just sent us to Ishka Bibles, absolutely.

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- Oh wow.

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- Absolutely.

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- You went high end.

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You went a little bit high end.

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I figured I'd take him down to South Street a little bit.

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So we had to fight traffic like crazy.

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My vehicle barely fit through the street,

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but it was worth it.

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I'll be honest.

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That's that's the ability.

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Next time next time you're in Philly,

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try a place called De La Sondre.

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Okay.

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This is false.

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Okay.

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It's another another spot that's off the radar

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for most non-Fillidopians.

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Well, and see like for my, for my, like to save face for me,

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like I was only in Philadelphia for a year

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and that was a long time ago.

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So it was.

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Yeah, I mean, that's a good spot.

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Yeah, we didn't. That's a good spot. He didn't steer us wrong. It was, it was good.

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But we, uh, we got to check another base. We got a Phillies game in. It was there.

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It was their opener. It was their season at home opener. And we got to see

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the Philly fanatic parachute into the stadium.

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We got to see my children got to see their first fan brawl out in, out in right field.

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Wow. We were on the other, we were on the other side, but we got a clear view.

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And the camera men do not hesitate. They're able to zoom right in and get the

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live up front. And then just to see a homo per experience, it was one, I will say it

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was one of the best baseball games that we've we've ever seen. So I will say though, I just

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the Philadelphia fans are there, they're there's something else there.

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Yeah, yeah, we we are unfortunately a little bit too intense.

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I felt it felt intense. It did. It did. Yeah.

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Yeah. Sometimes people need to remind Phillies fans that there's like a hundred and what

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60 games. Like you don't have to jump off the bridge every after every loss. But that's

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how we roll. That's how we roll. So we're passionate.

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That is true. So can you tell me a little bit about what interested you in your current

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professional role at Everett's?

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Yeah. So as Andy would know, because Andy has known my background a little bit, I grew

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up as I mentioned in Philadelphia, I grew up in an area of the city called North Philly,

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which was a relatively thriving African-American community

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up into the mid early '60s,

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and then especially the early '70s,

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right around when I was, I don't know, six or eight,

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our community experienced a lot of stress.

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Many of the manufacturing jobs left our community,

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crack cocaine came into our community,

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and the stress of that just really,

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uh crippled our community in such a way where before most of the folks in our community including

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my father worked within walking distance at one of the factories didn't need a lot of

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education and this is not just Philadelphia you know this store could be said throughout our country

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manufacturing um but uh in our particular community it just uh within a decade it went from um

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relatively safe, economic stable homeowners for the most part to just what comes with

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illegal activity, drugs and stress and all those things, schools underfunded, etc. And so

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you have a couple of chances, a couple opportunities you stay and quote, like a salmon

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try to force against the system that you're facing. You can stay, so you can stay or for

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many people you can flee and most of the community I grew up with, the friends I grew up with, they

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stayed and unfortunately had just a variety of challenging stories thereafter. My parents,

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we were in a position because of some brothers at the church that we were going to at the time

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that we moved. And so we moved out of North Philly into a different area of the city. And

247
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because of that, there's a level of, without over stating it, of the virus guilt. And I

248
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don't mean that in a shame way of guilt, but recognizing that many of the friends I hung

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out with or were incarcerated indoor solid untimely death or some other challenging narrative

250
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that their story could have been so different.

251
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And yet I feel as though I've had so many gifted opportunities.

252
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And so part of me says, you know, as my parents always told me up until they passed away,

253
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forget where you come from, I came from North Philly and so our community that was under

254
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stress under siege.

255
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And so my life story has been one of trying to not necessarily only North Philly, but

256
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communities that are representative of under resource underrepresented communities.

257
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How can I make an impact?

258
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And that's been for the most part of my life in the financial sector and banking now in

259
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financial services with Everants.

260
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even when I was a pastor for 20 years,

261
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'cause I started when I was five,

262
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we worked a lot around community engagement,

263
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community development, specifically,

264
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not just in soup kitchen and stuff like that,

265
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which is helpful, right?

266
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People need to eat, but also around,

267
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how do we bring about economic stability and strength

268
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in a community through a faith-based,

269
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in this case, Christian perspective?

270
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So yeah, I forgot the question, uh, cause I'm from North, you know,

271
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I'm from Philly and I should tell it, we talked downhill, man. You, you know,

272
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it's like double Dutch, you know, you guys want double Dutch is double

273
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Dutch jumping. And for those on the podcast that don't know,

274
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look it up double Dutch, you know, you got to jump in or,

275
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or I'll just keep going.

276
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So you also, I see you also serve, uh, you know,

277
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as we like to at least sort of stock our guests ahead of time

278
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and see what they're into.

279
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Yeah.

280
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So you serve on some, you serve on some boards and things like that.

281
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Again, kind of extending that community engagement.

282
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What tell us about those, tell us about the boards you serve on,

283
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why you care about them, what you do.

284
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:12,720
Yeah.

285
00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:14,000
Um, I'd be interested in that too.

286
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:15,320
Sure.

287
00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:16,120
You wouldn't mind.

288
00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,840
I, the one part of the question that you did ask me is about my role at

289
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Everest and I didn't say anything about that, but then I'll come around

290
00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:23,440
and talk about the boards.

291
00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:27,000
So in my role, Vice President of Church and Community Development,

292
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that really allows me to work with our pool of professionals

293
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called Stewardship Consultants that engage local congregations.

294
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We at Everton serve, I would say, up to 35, 36 different denominations

295
00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:45,480
in the congregations within those denominations.

296
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And we have a pool of professionals

297
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we refer to as Stewardship Consultants that help congregations

298
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wherever they are in their stewardship journey.

299
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And so I provide some resourcing for them.

300
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And then in my role with president

301
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of Everants Community Investment,

302
00:16:03,380 --> 00:16:06,480
this ties into my work in Philadelphia where Everants,

303
00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,880
we opened up our first urban location there

304
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in Philadelphia area of the city called Kensington

305
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along with building our capacity

306
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and other financial services.

307
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But ECI is our attempt at having a particular specific fund

308
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set aside for LMI, low, moderate income communities,

309
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because of a variety of reasons

310
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that we don't have one podcast to talk about.

311
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But I think I'll touch on that later

312
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through some of the questions.

313
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And historically, underserved under-resourced communities,

314
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access to credit outside of predatory credit options

315
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is desperately needed.

316
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And so we're working at trying to figure out

317
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how we can do that in a sustainable way.

318
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And we were on about a two, two and a half year journey

319
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in that role in ECI, everyone's community investment

320
00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,880
is that lending pool that we work in tandem

321
00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:05,280
with our credit union and providing a variety of LMI,

322
00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:09,680
what we call impact loans or impact lending tools.

323
00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,360
This does dovetail quite directly

324
00:17:12,360 --> 00:17:13,760
into some of the boards I'm on,

325
00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,960
the Brooklyn Peace Center, which is up in New York City.

326
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,120
I shouldn't have went down and trying to remember stuff.

327
00:17:22,120 --> 00:17:28,360
The city school, which is a faith-based Christian school in the city of Philadelphia, providing

328
00:17:28,360 --> 00:17:29,360
options.

329
00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:35,080
I'm a firm believer in public school education, as well as private school education, as well

330
00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:36,800
as Catholic school education.

331
00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:41,280
In an urban setting, people need options, good options.

332
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:42,840
And so I'm part of that.

333
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:51,100
And then the commonplace is a small nonprofit starting similar to what I did over my time

334
00:17:51,100 --> 00:17:58,860
at Oxford Circle Minute Night Church starting a nonprofit that allows them to find out what

335
00:17:58,860 --> 00:18:05,060
is already activated and active in a community, but then bringing along some things around

336
00:18:05,060 --> 00:18:08,660
faith-focused such as a daycare such as

337
00:18:08,660 --> 00:18:17,420
Afterschool programming things like that and so I'm on the board of those three and if I'm on another board that I forgot about

338
00:18:17,420 --> 00:18:20,660
Sometimes I can get in trouble and overextending myself

339
00:18:20,660 --> 00:18:26,540
I think you've I think you've named the ones that I that I saw that was I was just interested in and so I

340
00:18:26,540 --> 00:18:31,940
You know, and so I really I mean I hear I hear from you that

341
00:18:31,940 --> 00:18:34,860
there's kind of a

342
00:18:34,860 --> 00:18:36,300
for you personally.

343
00:18:36,300 --> 00:18:38,620
And I'm wondering if you,

344
00:18:38,620 --> 00:18:40,400
it seems to me that you're kind of your personal mission,

345
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,540
what you do, it probably reflects your vision for this.

346
00:18:43,540 --> 00:18:45,220
There really is a multi-layered,

347
00:18:45,220 --> 00:18:47,380
kind of multi-pronged approach to,

348
00:18:47,380 --> 00:18:48,900
'cause we were talking about urban renewal,

349
00:18:48,900 --> 00:18:52,820
we're talking about, you know, investing in communities.

350
00:18:52,820 --> 00:18:57,140
You know, someone who has grown up here in the Midwest,

351
00:18:57,140 --> 00:18:59,860
and I was born in Michigan,

352
00:18:59,860 --> 00:19:02,860
we live here close to South Bend, Indiana,

353
00:19:02,860 --> 00:19:04,620
where it was a similar story.

354
00:19:04,620 --> 00:19:08,420
I mean, you've kind of said, yeah, Suda Baker, uh, the, the,

355
00:19:08,420 --> 00:19:11,940
the industry that we're here into the sixties and then that all went away.

356
00:19:11,940 --> 00:19:15,420
And then the town really turned, uh, you know,

357
00:19:15,420 --> 00:19:19,900
really turned in a completely direction without, uh, without reliable work. Um,

358
00:19:19,900 --> 00:19:23,060
you know, uh, I'm a mission again, a Michigan, originally.

359
00:19:23,060 --> 00:19:26,960
So the story of Detroit, which is, you know, Detroit's making a comeback.

360
00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,780
My parents lived in, uh, they lived in Lima, Ohio for a while. And there,

361
00:19:30,780 --> 00:19:34,300
there's another, you know, kind of a rust belt extended city of a lot of

362
00:19:34,300 --> 00:19:42,060
industry left that area. I wonder, you know, from your perspective, I'm sure you've seen

363
00:19:42,060 --> 00:19:47,900
because when I drive through those places and when I've seen those places, I think to myself,

364
00:19:47,900 --> 00:19:53,020
just as a normal like citizen, as normal, you know, whatever I go, how in the world will we ever

365
00:19:53,020 --> 00:20:00,060
get back to maybe not the good old days, but how will we see maybe a new future for these places?

366
00:20:00,060 --> 00:20:02,860
How will, is it even possible?

367
00:20:02,860 --> 00:20:07,740
Or maybe, and the thing is, is that I don't even know about, I do know, because I follow

368
00:20:07,740 --> 00:20:11,740
some of the things that have happened in Detroit, specifically, when they're trying to get back

369
00:20:11,740 --> 00:20:15,260
on online and improve some things.

370
00:20:15,260 --> 00:20:18,380
What have you seen that's working in these communities?

371
00:20:18,380 --> 00:20:21,780
Because man, if you just walk through some of them and you kind of see the de-urbanization

372
00:20:21,780 --> 00:20:28,380
and you see blight and all of those sort of things, it can feel kind of like a monumental

373
00:20:28,380 --> 00:20:30,380
task, I think.

374
00:20:30,380 --> 00:20:31,380
Sure.

375
00:20:31,380 --> 00:20:40,220
No, no, I mean, everything you said, I've either engaged in conversations or being a

376
00:20:40,220 --> 00:20:42,420
pastor in an urban setting.

377
00:20:42,420 --> 00:20:48,580
Even now, with our location and challenging community, parts of the community, not all,

378
00:20:48,580 --> 00:20:55,260
but parts of the community of Kensington due to the opioid crisis being played out there

379
00:20:55,260 --> 00:20:58,780
and parts of that area of Kensington.

380
00:20:58,780 --> 00:21:01,300
In fact, what you said reminded me of a conversation.

381
00:21:01,300 --> 00:21:05,860
I was about a year into my role here at Ever since

382
00:21:05,860 --> 00:21:10,380
and I was in one of those mid Western states.

383
00:21:10,380 --> 00:21:12,020
You know, once you give me West of Pittsburgh,

384
00:21:12,020 --> 00:21:14,940
I put them all in one big, no, I don't,

385
00:21:14,940 --> 00:21:17,260
but I think I was in Iowa to be honest.

386
00:21:17,260 --> 00:21:20,060
I think it was Iowa, but the gentleman,

387
00:21:20,060 --> 00:21:24,240
he wasn't as well-versed in languages.

388
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:28,840
you are, I don't think, or as culturally sensitive.

389
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:30,440
He basically just came up to me and said,

390
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:31,960
"Hey, Leonard, I know you.

391
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:33,920
I kept up with you.

392
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:35,880
I love what you were doing at Oxford Circle.

393
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:36,840
So glad you're at Everons."

394
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:38,960
But he said, "You know what?

395
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,480
I was in Chicago in whatever years he was there

396
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:43,320
in Chicago.

397
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:44,880
He was maybe in the '70s.

398
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:49,880
And now when I go back and I see that community,

399
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:55,960
I need to understand why he pointed it more directly at race.

400
00:21:55,960 --> 00:22:01,760
He said, Leonard, why can't you why can't you as if I live in Chicago, but why can't

401
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:08,640
you or your people have good communities or quality communities?

402
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:10,320
I mean, he does.

403
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:15,200
He just, I mean, it went, it went from him patting on my back to him kicking my

404
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:15,520
butt.

405
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:16,880
Like it was so quick.

406
00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:23,280
It was so quick and embarrassingly because again, you don't know me well, but you know

407
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,520
that I can put a lot of words together in my brief conversation.

408
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:29,020
He caught me off guard.

409
00:22:29,020 --> 00:22:33,420
I didn't have an answer.

410
00:22:33,420 --> 00:22:38,980
And I had a little bit of, had a lot of shame that initially came on as if I'm carrying

411
00:22:38,980 --> 00:22:42,400
like, you know, you know, as in my Christian faith, Jesus died on the cross here.

412
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:43,400
I'm trying to carry.

413
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,240
I'm trying to carry it.

414
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:46,240
Yeah.

415
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,360
But what he happened to be a white brother,

416
00:22:48,360 --> 00:22:50,920
and what he was trying to get at is what you were stating

417
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:55,120
in a very appropriate question, in a very broad sense.

418
00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:57,560
And I said, you know what, I need to figure that out,

419
00:22:57,560 --> 00:22:59,840
at least to the level that I can have some comfort

420
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:02,040
and engage in conversations like this.

421
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:03,200
So one of the things I would say,

422
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:07,840
before we start trying to figure out what we're gonna do,

423
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,360
how we're gonna fix it, I think there's gotta be

424
00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:13,760
greater analysis on how we got there.

425
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:21,320
You know, the community that I grew up in, North Philly, there in Detroit and other places,

426
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:25,200
you know, that you mentioned, my brother, there's not an analysis of how we got there.

427
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:30,880
So when we look at urban communities, we have to understand in a predominantly black and

428
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:35,380
brown parts of the urban communities that are really stressed, depending on what part

429
00:23:35,380 --> 00:23:40,280
of, you know, what city you're talking about, we have to kind of do a quick study of how

430
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:41,680
did we get there?

431
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,820
Because there's been some intentional ways that the communities that are stressed and

432
00:23:45,820 --> 00:23:51,720
are struggling are doing that because that's how they were designed to do, from my perspective.

433
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:59,340
So when we look at our history of redlining, and we understand that redlining was part

434
00:23:59,340 --> 00:24:11,580
of our nation's infusion of cash, of investment after the Great Depression, as a way to

435
00:24:11,580 --> 00:24:17,260
Strengthen that the new deal came about and mortgages came about in middle class.

436
00:24:17,260 --> 00:24:21,500
Actually, it worked to some extent, even those who say that was a terrible idea.

437
00:24:21,500 --> 00:24:25,180
Many benefited from being able to build these mortgages and build their wealth.

438
00:24:25,180 --> 00:24:30,620
But part of the dark side of that or the shadow side of that, in order to do that,

439
00:24:30,620 --> 00:24:40,220
they created a alphabet soup of ABCD where red was on a bottom and said these communities

440
00:24:40,220 --> 00:24:44,700
are non-desirable, and investment should not happen in these communities.

441
00:24:44,700 --> 00:24:52,220
And as a result, they were redlined, literally, as both of you are probably aware. Well, if you

442
00:24:52,220 --> 00:24:59,180
look on a redline map of 1920 or 1930, and you look at the communities that are struggling today,

443
00:24:59,180 --> 00:25:08,540
there's a direct correlation. They're still under resourced. There still are the places where

444
00:25:09,660 --> 00:25:15,500
underfunded school. There's still food deserts, etc. So there's pockets within that

445
00:25:15,500 --> 00:25:20,300
redlining like the block or two that I grew up on in North Philly before the manufacturing jobs

446
00:25:20,300 --> 00:25:27,260
moved out. And then you look at World War II and you look at the GI bill again, major cash infusion

447
00:25:27,260 --> 00:25:33,180
for those who served. But people like my father who served in the Korean War

448
00:25:35,500 --> 00:25:42,940
could not get access to those same funds for a mortgage for a undergrad degree

449
00:25:42,940 --> 00:25:51,580
as well. And there's a variety of reasons why. So I know for some in our current context, looking back

450
00:25:51,580 --> 00:25:56,540
is only allowed if we can look back on those things we want to celebrate. I recognize that.

451
00:25:56,540 --> 00:26:02,460
But we also have to recognize what we're in in some of our communities. They're actually designed

452
00:26:02,460 --> 00:26:06,620
And it, for that to be the type of community that it is.

453
00:26:06,620 --> 00:26:08,940
Now, once you go back and take a look,

454
00:26:08,940 --> 00:26:11,500
you then need to begin asking questions around,

455
00:26:11,500 --> 00:26:15,300
okay, how do we strengthen what is here?

456
00:26:15,300 --> 00:26:18,260
How do we sit and engage with those who are suffering,

457
00:26:18,260 --> 00:26:19,540
who are struggling,

458
00:26:19,540 --> 00:26:23,260
and how do we look at investment for the long haul?

459
00:26:23,260 --> 00:26:25,180
It took us so many years to get here.

460
00:26:25,180 --> 00:26:27,720
It's gonna take us a few decades

461
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:29,380
for some of these communities to move out.

462
00:26:29,380 --> 00:26:30,800
I can get more specific if you want,

463
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,160
But I think I've talked way too long on that one question.

464
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:35,240
- No, that's good.

465
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:36,880
Yeah, that's good.

466
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:38,920
And Leonard, I'm gonna,

467
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:43,040
I guess we'll use the term devil's advocate.

468
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:44,400
I'm never sure that's the right.

469
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,600
- Oh please, I love the word.

470
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:47,600
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

471
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,520
But you know, because when you use,

472
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,800
there's a big pushback in certain spheres.

473
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,640
And we would know this within our church communities

474
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,320
as well, there's a big pushback.

475
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,640
Anytime we're talking about anything that's systemic, right?

476
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,880
like a claim of any systemic ongoing systemic thing.

477
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:04,720
- Yeah.

478
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,880
- 'Cause they'll say, well, okay, we're not redlining now.

479
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,760
There are no policies of redlining.

480
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:12,520
You know, like I've heard that.

481
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:14,600
I've heard people say that.

482
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,160
And maybe what I would just like to hear from you on

483
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,640
is to say, 'cause there's a general sense of,

484
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,320
we don't have these exact policies in place anymore.

485
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,880
So there's no excuses for XYZ community

486
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:31,880
or XYZ people group to still be in the situation that they are

487
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,600
when they have new opportunities now.

488
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,600
Now it's a new day, we're in the 21st century.

489
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,080
There's new opportunities, new social awarenesses.

490
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,240
So everybody just needs to quit whining

491
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:48,520
and just step up to the plate and live their best life.

492
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:49,640
What?

493
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,920
And again, that's a broad brushstroke

494
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,760
and probably someone who is listening is like,

495
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:56,840
You did not nuance it appropriately.

496
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:57,680
(laughing)

497
00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,960
But I'm hopefully, you hear me when I'm saying

498
00:27:59,960 --> 00:28:00,800
what I'm getting at.

499
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:01,640
- Oh, I hear, oh, I hear.

500
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:02,480
- What?

501
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:04,000
Now, here's the deal.

502
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,080
I think we can respond to that question a number of ways.

503
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,040
Some that are not helpful and that just kind of

504
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,120
continue the antagonism, so to speak,

505
00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:11,280
in that conversation.

506
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,560
And then there are others that I think,

507
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,160
faithfully help bring people along to understand,

508
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,760
which my sense is that's the conversation

509
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,480
that you wanna have, that's where you come from.

510
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,440
But what would the response be?

511
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,880
to this devil advocacy that I've thrown out here.

512
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:32,440
- No, I appreciate, I don't know the devil advocacy part,

513
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:33,960
but I appreciate the pushback.

514
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:35,800
That's the language I use, the pushback.

515
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:36,680
(laughs)

516
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:37,720
I'm a pushback.

517
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,560
I'm 59 years old.

518
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:45,560
In my lifetime, the civil rights bill,

519
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:50,600
voter rights, and I forget the third one,

520
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:51,720
happened during the '60s.

521
00:28:51,720 --> 00:29:00,760
So in my lifetime, so 59 years, up until that point, all the things that we were just talking

522
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,000
about was legal.

523
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:13,120
So in one lifetime, we now have laws that does say redlining is illegal.

524
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:20,520
But in my lifetime, it is very difficult to build wealth that some people groups have

525
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:28,360
had generations to build. We need time. Now, there are some of us, myself included, who have had

526
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:34,200
opportunities and we've taken advantage of those opportunities, you know, but overall, when we

527
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:40,600
look at the poverty rates and we look at the wealth gap and all those type of things, there's only

528
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:51,480
been one generation that has not been legal to use race as a barometer for my access to what

529
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:57,720
other people groups in the majority culture have had for four, five, six, seven generations.

530
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:04,120
I was out in Kansas, again, with my work in Everinson, was talking about the Homestead Act,

531
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:09,640
which occurred immediately after Emancipation Proclamation, and just talking about how the

532
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:15,880
the Homestead Act was offered for those who wanted to go west to stake land and not only

533
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:21,400
just not just land but they then got the rights to the land but they also got education and

534
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:27,960
all those things associated with it so that they could build and work the land.

535
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:36,440
At the same time post emancipation proclamation African American population was given a bank

536
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,200
which is the most tremendous irony when you don't have resources,

537
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,120
because at one point you're a property.

538
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:46,840
Now you're being told to produce, pull yourself up by your own bootstrap.

539
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:48,920
We were given a bank.

540
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,120
We were not allowed access to the Homestead Act,

541
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:57,680
nor some of the other cash infusions from the government.

542
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,560
So what I'm trying to have people understand is,

543
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:06,040
is create awareness as to how our communities have gotten to where they

544
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:16,000
are. And when we have had successful communities, places such as Tulsa, places in Florida, we

545
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:21,400
have the red summer in which whole communities that were thriving, despite all the challenges

546
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:30,680
that I just talked about, they were destroyed. So, you know, so I'm not here to pull on anyone's

547
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:39,960
heartstrings? No. I'm here to make people aware so that when they start engaging around what can we

548
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:46,360
do, they understand that some of the roots of in the challenges are deep. So the conversation has

549
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:55,240
to be deep. Our prayers have to be deep. And our resolve has to be deep. You know, it's not,

550
00:31:55,240 --> 00:32:00,760
It's not, it's not, it's not going to be a good, a feel good, um, you know, emotional high.

551
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:05,080
It's, you know, the journey, you know, within the end of Baptist tradition, um, you know,

552
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,640
there's a song, the journey, the journey is long.

553
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:08,640
Yeah.

554
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:13,800
And, and, and so, you know, in my lifetime, I recognize some of the things I want to see

555
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:22,200
happen in communities that I grew up with, uh, having a restart, a rebirth, um, you know,

556
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,760
may not happen, but I still have to do the work.

557
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,640
- Mm-hmm, yeah.

558
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:27,840
- And I do it joyfully.

559
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:32,120
I would say I do it singing, but this brother can't sing.

560
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:36,620
This brother, this brother cannot, cannot sing.

561
00:32:36,620 --> 00:32:37,960
(laughing)

562
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,240
- Well, and you know, gosh, within our

563
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,680
Anabaptist communities, that could be a challenge.

564
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:45,800
You can be outed quickly.

565
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:46,640
- I know.

566
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:47,800
(laughing)

567
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:48,800
- You can be outed quickly.

568
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,160
I was, no, so the congregation,

569
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:56,520
congregation I was preaching today, they mostly more, more contemporary songs, but they, they,

570
00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:03,080
they put a, they put a hymn in there and I got to say, boy, oh boy, threw me for, through me for

571
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:09,400
a loop. I was, I was unprepared and my, my poor voice was even more magnified when that happened.

572
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:14,520
Everybody goes like, go, go, go to four part harmony and I'm like, oh, I cannot keep up. Oh,

573
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:20,520
here we go. That's what you just raise your hands. Yes, just have one with the word.

574
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:25,680
Can I just put one more caveat there?

575
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:32,840
I mean, one observation that could also be helpful is I think within our world view at

576
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:40,180
times we've fallen into this false narrative and it's in the book The Sum of Us of a zero

577
00:33:40,180 --> 00:33:49,600
sum game where our historical narrative has placed us in this uncomfortable position at

578
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:54,560
times to believe the lie, I think it's a lie, that in order for one particular group to

579
00:33:54,560 --> 00:34:00,920
thrive, another group has to suffer.

580
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:06,560
You know, so, so, so, so when I look back at the GI Bill, when I look back at the New

581
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:13,400
Deal, when I look back at the Homestead Act and our inability to get access, I say those

582
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:20,440
Those were situations that if there was a broader understanding, at least as a Relatial

583
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,520
African American perspective of saying, we can all thrive.

584
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:26,400
There is enough, right?

585
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:33,280
From a fake base, scarcity versus abundance, right?

586
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,480
In no way am I asking for more.

587
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:41,640
We're just asking for equitable access.

588
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:49,480
And so I think a point forward would be, how can we move away from this false narrative

589
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:55,080
that says, you know what, if my community, wherever you are, you know, in order for us

590
00:34:55,080 --> 00:35:03,280
to thrive, that means that side of that city or that side of my community can't have.

591
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:09,920
Because it not only affects them, the other, whoever the other is, but it affects you.

592
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:17,160
I mean, you think about innovation, for instance, you know, perhaps, perhaps a person who could

593
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:23,360
have had to cure for cancer with someone in a housing project who had an IQ but did not

594
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:28,400
get quality education resources so they never got access to universities that could have

595
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:33,400
created something that could have been a healing ointment, you know.

596
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:38,440
I, you know, I think about our public, our public tool system that used to be the envy

597
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:43,640
of the world up until 1950, but when desegregation came, there was this notion that said, well,

598
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:53,560
if we have to share with them, we'll just put dirt in it and close it. That's a zero-sum mindset.

599
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:59,320
And I think for some of us, we still carry that notion that says, well, if the Black

600
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:07,320
and Browning communities achieve, that means it's going to be something taken from, no,

601
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:15,880
No, in my history, in my example of history over the African American population that I represent,

602
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:26,280
we haven't wanted to take anything, we just want to be part, you know, the understanding of DEI is,

603
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:33,160
diversity is diversity, equity, inclusion, you know, diversity is being invited to the dance,

604
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,160
you know, this is my analogy, you're not going to get this at a PhD level, you know,

605
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:45,200
You know, you know, diversity is being invited to the dance, you know, equity is being invited

606
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:52,440
to dance at the dance, inclusion is participating in the planning, you know, is saying, hey,

607
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:54,680
can we have a say what songs we're going to play?

608
00:36:54,680 --> 00:37:01,400
Can we talk about the venue, you know, together about that possibility, but it's not just

609
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:10,040
taken away. And I think, you know, that's part of the as people of faith, my understanding,

610
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:16,360
that's where, you know, of all the things that the Bible talks about, as far as us being ministers

611
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:21,080
of is not the minister is not to be in a ministry of music, though that's important, the ministry

612
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:25,720
of preaching, though that's important, the ministry of even community, loving your neighbor,

613
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:33,720
but the miniature reconciliation. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's the one that, that's the one that

614
00:37:33,720 --> 00:37:41,240
we're still called to be and the one that we're most at times seemingly afraid to engage in.

615
00:37:41,240 --> 00:37:45,240
You know, Leonard, as you mentioned, I, it's a

616
00:37:45,240 --> 00:37:51,640
within the communities that, that I have, I have seen in some of the places that I,

617
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,520
that I have been in. And this is, you know, and I'll just, and I'll say this is not a

618
00:37:54,520 --> 00:38:00,680
new thing to our listeners, you know, coming predominantly from, you know,

619
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:06,280
Evan, you know, white evangelical circles, you know, I do live in North Central India.

620
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:12,680
Don't mess up, brother. Don't mess up. Yeah. Well, you know, here we go.

621
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:17,720
Here we go. Stop a Mandy. Stop.

622
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:24,200
This, uh, the conversation around, because you've touched on it, I think it's a great

623
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:30,520
segue, the conversation around diversity, equity, inclusion. Now, this is a, uh, for

624
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:36,920
some people in the circles within which I interact, this is code language for undesirable,

625
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:44,760
undesirable, uh, activities, right? Um, and, and I think, and I think what for some,

626
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:49,480
for some who who are not saying, listen, I man, keep keep those people there. We'll keep we'll

627
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:53,400
stay here. Like who are not coming from that perspective, not coming from a zero. Yeah,

628
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:59,800
they're not coming from the zero. Yeah, they're coming from zero some. There is still a there is

629
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:10,200
a concern or a worry around. I think, okay, when we talk about diversity, well, to what end to what

630
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:17,800
end? What is the goal? When we talk about equity, to what end? What is the... What would we say?

631
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:22,840
Because these are all diversity, equity, inclusion. All three words that like, "Yeah,

632
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:27,960
should we be diverse?" "Yes, absolutely. Should there be equity?" "Yes, should we be including

633
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:33,480
people?" "Yes." No one argues those things, but when the rubber meets the road and we get deeper

634
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:40,360
into it, and who's interpreting those things and applying those things in the workplace,

635
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:42,920
in the, in civic life, whatever.

636
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:44,760
That's where, like, that's where the fighting begins.

637
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,680
Those are, those can become fighting words and those, those sort of things.

638
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:53,680
And I love, I still love how you've kind of, you've outlined in the great dance metaphor,

639
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:58,400
which I've heard recently and it's been honestly, honestly helpful to me because the moment,

640
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,400
in some circles that I'm in the moment,

641
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,600
the moment diversity comes out of my lips.

642
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,240
Yeah, oh my, get ready.

643
00:40:06,240 --> 00:40:09,160
We're a peaceful people until then.

644
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,400
- Until then, yeah. - Yeah.

645
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,120
- Until then. - Until then.

646
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:14,800
- Help me understand, Leonard.

647
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:15,960
I mean, from your perspective

648
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:17,760
and the work that you've done,

649
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:19,160
when I ask those questions,

650
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:22,080
diversity, equity, inclusion, to what end,

651
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,440
how do we know if we're doing this in a way

652
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,240
that's not a zero sum?

653
00:40:26,240 --> 00:40:28,240
Because I think it absolutely ties back

654
00:40:28,240 --> 00:40:32,320
what you said, there is a fear that one of us is going to get the short end of the stick

655
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:37,840
and I'll be doggone if it's going to be me. So, you know, so let's, let's start the fight.

656
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:47,440
What's your hope for those things? So I, yeah, I mean, so I would put it in,

657
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:52,480
I don't know if there are three, they're not three silos. I think they interact,

658
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:57,520
but I'll just talk about it at least in three, three vignettes. Maybe that's the best word.

659
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:05,140
you know, so first is for my as a person of faith in Jesus Christ, there's this

660
00:41:05,140 --> 00:41:11,180
understanding of diversity early on, you know, if we understand the Genesis story

661
00:41:11,180 --> 00:41:16,940
that we're all created in the image of God. You know, it sounds like it sounds

662
00:41:16,940 --> 00:41:23,660
like a rather like duh, but I think at times we forget that, you know, and if we

663
00:41:23,660 --> 00:41:29,500
all are creating an image of God. They're therefore then within all our cultural diversity

664
00:41:29,500 --> 00:41:38,420
within wherever it is, wherever we're at is a gift. Right? It's not a, it's not a, you

665
00:41:38,420 --> 00:41:42,900
know, if we were all creating an image of God and we're all in a in a modern lithic

666
00:41:42,900 --> 00:41:48,500
gathering, then the kingdom of God is in present. The full kingdom of God is in present. And

667
00:41:48,500 --> 00:41:53,540
that's a hard narrative for us to, we like to think of it as a kumbaya, but it's very

668
00:41:53,540 --> 00:41:57,440
difficult for you to think about it in the context of how we worship where we

669
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:04,280
work where we live but as a Christian I I affirm that and I hold on to that when

670
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:11,320
when yeah I see value in that and when I pastored I was blessed to have that

671
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:17,280
divert does it present challenges yes but brother and anybody that's been in

672
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,480
ministry, it could be a monolithic group and church is a challenge.

673
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:28,320
So not like, it's not like diversity is a challenge that, you know,

674
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,880
just, you know, you put a family that you put two families together and you got

675
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:33,120
issues. Yes. Yeah.

676
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:34,520
You know, so, so that's one.

677
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:38,480
So, so as people, and then you look at the biblical narrative from Genesis one,

678
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:42,560
you know, I mean, you know, and then you go to Luke four, Jesus said, you know,

679
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:44,440
the spirit of God is on me to preach good news.

680
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:49,660
And he goes through all the type of people that many of us wouldn't want around the table.

681
00:42:49,660 --> 00:42:57,940
Yeah. The poor, the incarcerated, those, those with disability, all those.

682
00:42:57,940 --> 00:43:00,700
But he says, that's who I've come for.

683
00:43:00,700 --> 00:43:07,100
So, so, so as a Christian and as an Anabaptist, I, you know, Jesus's

684
00:43:07,100 --> 00:43:10,800
words is a higher than the rest of the canon, but Jesus's words are very important.

685
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:17,400
So if that if they're important to Christ and we many scholars say that's his coming out statement Luke 4 18 and 19

686
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:19,400
I take it very seriously is

687
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:23,560
A diverse group of people and then you look at Acts 2

688
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:29,080
You know we celebrate Pentecost and there in Acts 2 I can't remember the exact verses

689
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:33,080
But he talks about everybody who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved

690
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,640
Everybody yeah, no everybody

691
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:40,520
Everybody everybody

692
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:49,520
So there's this open call, Jew and Gentile, which would have been even a bigger chasm

693
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:53,440
than what we struggle with here in our, you know, in our great experiment that we call

694
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:55,440
the US.

695
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:57,320
Everybody calls in the Lord will be saved.

696
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:05,320
And so for me, I'm trying to see and engage with people, everybody.

697
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:09,600
Not because I like it, not because it's a political thing to do, not because somebody

698
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:13,040
else has told me to do. But when I look at the biblical narrative, there seems to be

699
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:17,680
a clear and calm. And then lastly, you know, the one that's often most used is Revelation

700
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:23,200
seven nine, which I enjoy using it. But then for some folk, they say, well, then in heaven,

701
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:28,400
I'm going to, you know, I can deal with people, you know, and all that. Well, as I used to

702
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:35,840
say at Oxford Circle, this is a dress rehearsal people. Yeah. Yeah. If you hate me here, what

703
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:37,840
What makes you think you're gonna love me later?

704
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:39,840
100%. Right. That's right.

705
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:41,840
I don't get that. I don't get that.

706
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:43,840
Yeah.

707
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,840
So, so, so, so that's the one vignette.

708
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:48,840
That's going to be the longest one.

709
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:50,840
There's a civic competency vignette.

710
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,840
I know there in the Midwest and parts of your listeners,

711
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:58,840
there isn't, at least as it relates to race or, or, um, um,

712
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:02,840
you know, one's ethnic background, you know, a great diversity.

713
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,640
And people hear what I'll say here in a moment as a threat.

714
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:13,520
It is not a threat, but as we become more diverse as a nation, it's just civic competency

715
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:20,640
for us to become greater aware of the differences so that we can interact in a way that allows

716
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,560
us to build relationships instead of build walls.

717
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:29,560
I mean, it's just from a civic possibility.

718
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:37,760
ones holidays, knowing one's favorite foods, knowing one's allergies, knowing one's, you

719
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:44,200
know, it's just as a neighbor, wherever I live, I want to know how I can interact with

720
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,660
my neighbors, especially when my kids, you know, we're growing up.

721
00:45:47,660 --> 00:45:50,320
So there's a civic competency.

722
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:51,600
And again, it's not a threat.

723
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:56,480
I think it's a great, I think is how, you know, the great experiment as, as a population

724
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:03,540
continues to become more and more diverse. For me, it just seems to make sense to grow

725
00:46:03,540 --> 00:46:09,940
your civic competency by opening the door and saying, hello, neighbor, how are you?

726
00:46:09,940 --> 00:46:17,360
What makes you tick? What is this dead, this dead podcast, you know, your listeners come

727
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:22,920
from a diverse group of, you know, background, social economic and all those type of things.

728
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,880
But the commonality often I would assume is that their fathers.

729
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:27,880
Yeah.

730
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:34,780
And there's a common narrative being a father as an African American, as a white American,

731
00:46:34,780 --> 00:46:41,400
as an Asian American that can we can find common language and some synergy around and

732
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,280
probably play some pickleball because I'm a pickleball fanatic.

733
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:46,680
You got to invite me back to talk about pickleball.

734
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:47,680
Oh boy.

735
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:48,680
Oh boy.

736
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:49,680
He's bug.

737
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:50,680
He's bug.

738
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:51,680
Oh.

739
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:55,440
I'm a big and then the third been yet because I could easily distract it.

740
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,060
And this is more from a business model.

741
00:46:58,060 --> 00:47:01,560
It's economic viability of your organization.

742
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:05,020
My daughter works in trend research.

743
00:47:05,020 --> 00:47:09,820
It's an international company, but she does trend research in the fashion side of things.

744
00:47:09,820 --> 00:47:16,500
And and the fact is companies that want to thrive in the future

745
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:23,560
are companies that recognize that if everyone around the table who makes decisions come from

746
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:28,960
the same community, drink the same water, went to the same schools and the list goes

747
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:34,440
on and on, the chances of them being able to get a market share greater than that particular

748
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,440
community is very small.

749
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:42,160
So they have to go outside in order to bring in someone with a fresh look, with a fresh

750
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:45,680
face, with a fresh idea that's somewhat different.

751
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:49,120
It's not a, it's not a, it's not a, what do you call it?

752
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:50,920
It's not a taken away.

753
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:56,960
It's expanding because in a scarcity mindset that says, that's taken somebody's job.

754
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:03,640
And a growth mindset is saying the world is bigger than what we have made it up into this

755
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:05,280
point.

756
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:11,280
Let's find out how we can be of a value and a resource in that particular community.

757
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:19,520
So this idea of economic viability, you know, think about it when I was growing up and the

758
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:23,840
Hispanic community in the choices as it relates to restaurants towards zero.

759
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:33,840
None. But now as that population has wonderfully, they always been in our communities, but as they've

760
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:39,520
as they have grown and probably some have now been around some of those decision tables,

761
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:45,080
conversations, you know, we have, we have the menus are vast.

762
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:48,160
And the food is great.

763
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:48,660
Yeah.

764
00:48:48,660 --> 00:48:55,840
Well, you know, for us here in, here in Goshen, I mean, we were, you know, our kids are all my

765
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:56,920
kids are in public schools.

766
00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:04,760
You know, my children are the, are the minority here with 57% Latino population within our

767
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:05,560
school system.

768
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:14,560
And I just have to say, there is, there's just, I've experienced it as a real richness and a

769
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:21,760
real richness to our community. It's an addition to our community that, you know, is, well,

770
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:27,680
if I'm honest with you, like, particularly the family structures and the family commitments

771
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:32,800
within those communities are, I mean, we have something deep to learn from that. I mean,

772
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:34,880
like really, really deep to learn from.

773
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:41,720
And then on top of that, Andy and I can go get some of the best Mexican at any point.

774
00:49:41,720 --> 00:49:42,720
Yeah.

775
00:49:42,720 --> 00:49:46,120
The question is, is like, which one are we going to go to today?

776
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:47,240
Right.

777
00:49:47,240 --> 00:49:48,840
That's the peace.

778
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:53,440
And that's a non-threatening conversation to have sometimes is around food.

779
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:54,160
Yep.

780
00:49:54,160 --> 00:50:01,120
We do not hesitate to live in communities of diversity around food choices

781
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,480
Because we recognize no matter how good our food is,

782
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:14,480
there's a desire to be curious to taste, to taste and see what God, how, you know,

783
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:17,620
think about rice. Oh, my goodness.

784
00:50:17,620 --> 00:50:21,040
Rice in so many different, you know what?

785
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:24,120
In the African American community, I grew up in rice.

786
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:26,580
You just put a lot of gravy on it and it was very bland.

787
00:50:26,580 --> 00:50:29,980
And then I married, I married a beautiful Puerto Rican woman.

788
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:32,800
Oh my goodness. I'm like, what is this?

789
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:34,480
Is this kind of right?

790
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:36,000
Yeah. Is this manna?

791
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:38,320
Yeah, that's right.

792
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:41,560
You know, we've been married 33 years and just last night

793
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:45,560
she made some rice and bean, rice and chicken with some beans in it.

794
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:49,080
And I just gave her a hug and I was like, oh, this is OK.

795
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:53,080
She goes, letter, you've been eating this for 30 some years.

796
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:54,800
I'm like, honey, you don't understand.

797
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:58,080
I didn't grow up with this.

798
00:50:58,080 --> 00:50:58,680
Yes.

799
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:03,480
But but we embrace the food, but we don't want to deal with the people who cook it.

800
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:05,320
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

801
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:07,080
We don't want to live in our community.

802
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:07,880
Yeah.

803
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,680
That's a zero some mindset.

804
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:15,920
And I believe God, you know, I believe education can work up into a certain point,

805
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:18,480
but it also takes some heart.

806
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:19,320
Yes. Changing.

807
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:22,840
It also takes some you too can have conversations with your

808
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:26,360
community that looks like you that I can't.

809
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:28,000
Yeah. Yeah.

810
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:29,240
And that's where it starts.

811
00:51:29,240 --> 00:51:31,840
And the last thing I not last thing, but I just want to echo

812
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:37,280
part of the journey towards the challenges and urban settings,

813
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:41,240
part of the journey towards embracing or at least trying to understand

814
00:51:41,240 --> 00:51:44,440
the EI from a non threatening, quote, political agenda.

815
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:48,760
Is curiosity.

816
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:51,520
You're curious.

817
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:52,680
Don't put up a wall.

818
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:58,960
Just be curious and ask questions and and trust the person if you can,

819
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:02,560
the person that you're talking with and saying, hey, I'm just curious.

820
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:04,680
Why is D and I?

821
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:05,680
What is that about?

822
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:07,000
I don't understand it.

823
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,000
Be curious.

824
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:13,840
Because that curiosity, you know, I think, you know, we look at the biblical

825
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:16,560
narrative with Jesus, he seemed to embrace curious people.

826
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:18,880
Yes. Yeah.

827
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:20,280
Yeah. 100 percent.

828
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:22,040
Well, he also, he also liked food.

829
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:22,360
All right.

830
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:23,160
He's like food too.

831
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:23,600
Yeah.

832
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:29,880
But he seemed to embrace the curiosity and people like Zaccheus who were curious.

833
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:32,680
Turned out to be transformed.

834
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:33,060
Mm hmm.

835
00:52:33,060 --> 00:52:33,240
Yep.

836
00:52:33,240 --> 00:52:34,280
Yeah.

837
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:41,080
And transform people, transform households, transform households, transform community.

838
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:41,960
Yeah.

839
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:43,960
And Leonard, I love that so much.

840
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:48,040
I think, uh, you know, what I have felt recently, and I, and I have felt this from a

841
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:51,480
standpoint of, you know, running a secular non-for-profit organization where it just,

842
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:58,320
it feels like the DEI language can feel heavy, can feel heavy at times.

843
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:03,920
Like, like I need to, like I need to figure out how to like fully incorporate all of the,

844
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:07,680
you know, and it's like, and it's like, well, you know, now you've put me,

845
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:13,600
now you've put me into a corner where it's like, I, I, because to your exact point,

846
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:15,920
then it feels like I can't have curious conversations.

847
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:17,080
I have to feel how I feel.

848
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:24,520
I have to like fulfill some quota or something as opposed to beginning on this journey of

849
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:28,760
of understanding people, having conversations with them, sitting across the table from them.

850
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:36,260
You know, and that's that's a well, first of all, it's a much more Jesus shaped approach.

851
00:53:36,260 --> 00:53:39,600
And and I think this is this is the thing.

852
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:45,080
I feel like when it comes to people of faith, we have a unique opportunity to enter into

853
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:52,080
DEI kind of conversations that the secular world is missing.

854
00:53:52,080 --> 00:54:00,260
And the problem is, as I see it, that because the secular side has been louder and has come

855
00:54:00,260 --> 00:54:07,480
to the table with more force and quite honestly has tried to, for lack of better term, legislate

856
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:12,440
it versus relationally engaging in it, which I hear is what you're promoting.

857
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:18,320
I hear you in a relational promotion of these things, which I'm with.

858
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:21,560
I think that's where we've gotten confused.

859
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:27,760
So for the church, for followers of Jesus, I just want to say, I think you've really

860
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:32,340
plotted a course for us to kind of talk about it.

861
00:54:32,340 --> 00:54:34,200
Not as the world does, right?

862
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:39,600
But as through a kingdom lens, if that makes sense.

863
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:45,360
I think the world is starving for ways to engage the other and being able to engage

864
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:49,440
with authenticity, with curiosity and with the ability.

865
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:54,280
I think if you're authentic and you're curious where one has to part ways, wherever that

866
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:59,280
parting may or may not occur, it is similar to there and acts.

867
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:02,200
I'm going to mess up for those who are scholars, so I apologize.

868
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:09,480
But I think it was Paul and Timothy, not Timothy, Paul and, ah, can't think of the other.

869
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:13,260
other younger, younger apprentice that was with him.

870
00:55:13,260 --> 00:55:18,120
And they had a depart, they had such a sharp disagreement, right?

871
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:24,760
But then later in one of the letters, Timothy writes, because Timothy is the great peacekeeper.

872
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:26,660
I think it's Timothy, he's the great peacekeeper.

873
00:55:26,660 --> 00:55:33,260
They he writes about both of the he writes about that young apprentice about him still flourishing.

874
00:55:34,300 --> 00:55:43,040
So in other words, it was this it was a sense of because the relationship was based on curiosity and authenticity, authenticity with the foundation of Christ.

875
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:50,640
There was a sharp departure, but that departure still produced fruit for both of those gentlemen in their ministry.

876
00:55:50,640 --> 00:56:00,780
And so there are times where you just have to say, may God bless you and keep you along the way so that the relationship is maintained.

877
00:56:00,780 --> 00:56:02,580
There is there is.

878
00:56:03,340 --> 00:56:08,180
And so I'm not, I'm not, I'm not one for this, um, honky-dory, uh, you know,

879
00:56:08,180 --> 00:56:12,500
kumbaya. I recognize if I had time to tell you about my Nana,

880
00:56:12,500 --> 00:56:14,020
who I grew up with in the story,

881
00:56:14,020 --> 00:56:18,860
she told me as a shamanly about Puerto Ricans and how terrible they were and

882
00:56:18,860 --> 00:56:23,940
how all these things, because many of them were taking quote, her job, um,

883
00:56:23,940 --> 00:56:26,460
because, uh, first with the great migration,

884
00:56:26,460 --> 00:56:29,260
African Americans came in and took the jobs from poor whites.

885
00:56:29,260 --> 00:56:34,460
And then when when the great migration for the Hispanics from Puerto Rico came up,

886
00:56:34,460 --> 00:56:37,020
they took the jobs from many of the African Americans.

887
00:56:37,020 --> 00:56:42,580
You know, so so I grew up with this animosity towards a particular court,

888
00:56:42,580 --> 00:56:45,420
you know, Puerto Ricans and, you know, in God's great sister humor,

889
00:56:45,420 --> 00:56:49,700
who do I fall in love with, you know, you know, in college, you know,

890
00:56:49,700 --> 00:56:53,540
and I remember going to my Nana and saying, you know, Nana, you know,

891
00:56:53,540 --> 00:56:58,180
because my wife, Rosalie was coming over for dinner and I didn't want to,

892
00:56:58,260 --> 00:57:02,700
You know, I didn't want to sing, you know, because you'd never had to guess what was on my Nana's mind.

893
00:57:02,700 --> 00:57:03,700
She'll tell you.

894
00:57:03,700 --> 00:57:09,740
You know, you know, in the one part of the story, I should tell you, she was suffering from Alzheimer's a little bit.

895
00:57:09,740 --> 00:57:11,060
So she would forget things.

896
00:57:11,060 --> 00:57:13,900
And so I said, Nana, you know, I met this young lady at college.

897
00:57:13,900 --> 00:57:16,060
She goes, Oh, baby, that's awesome.

898
00:57:16,060 --> 00:57:16,900
What she didn't say, awesome.

899
00:57:16,900 --> 00:57:18,180
That's beautiful.

900
00:57:18,180 --> 00:57:18,900
What's her name?

901
00:57:18,900 --> 00:57:19,700
I said, Rosalie.

902
00:57:19,700 --> 00:57:22,100
She's like, Oh, just like my cousin Rosalie.

903
00:57:22,100 --> 00:57:23,740
I was like, eh, not exactly.

904
00:57:25,980 --> 00:57:28,740
And I said, Nana, I, you know, I love, I love you.

905
00:57:28,740 --> 00:57:32,460
And I think this young lady might be the one, but I need you to know she's Puerto

906
00:57:32,460 --> 00:57:34,460
Rican silence.

907
00:57:34,460 --> 00:57:39,020
And then my Nana goes, I love Puerto Ricans.

908
00:57:39,020 --> 00:57:47,980
So I take that either I took it like either her Alzheimer's kicked in and she forgot.

909
00:57:47,980 --> 00:57:51,540
Or she loved her grandson.

910
00:57:51,540 --> 00:57:52,620
Yeah.

911
00:57:52,620 --> 00:57:55,420
And she recognized, you know what?

912
00:57:55,420 --> 00:58:02,380
So I got to swallow my pride here and maybe I was wrong.

913
00:58:02,380 --> 00:58:06,420
In any case, I said thank you, Nana, and ran out of the room.

914
00:58:06,420 --> 00:58:09,580
That's all the blessing you needed.

915
00:58:09,580 --> 00:58:12,300
So we all have our baggage.

916
00:58:12,300 --> 00:58:16,380
We all have these dysfunctions and we all have the systems telling us that we're to hate

917
00:58:16,380 --> 00:58:20,180
the other or the others come to quote, "take whatever."

918
00:58:20,180 --> 00:58:26,220
I'm here to tell you that in God's economy, there's enough that our God is the God of

919
00:58:26,220 --> 00:58:27,220
abundance.

920
00:58:27,220 --> 00:58:32,760
And in my experience, when I have been most generous, when I've been generous as a steward

921
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:38,700
of what God has given me, God has walked alongside me in ways and bless me in those relationships

922
00:58:38,700 --> 00:58:41,380
and even in my own personal walk.

923
00:58:41,380 --> 00:58:45,220
And lastly, I'll just close with, I don't want to say at any stretch of imagination,

924
00:58:45,220 --> 00:58:50,340
part of our challenge, you know, I'm not afraid of the system's conversation.

925
00:58:50,340 --> 00:58:55,020
Part of the challenge from my perspective are systems that the zero sum game that's

926
00:58:55,020 --> 00:58:56,380
placed us in there.

927
00:58:56,380 --> 00:59:01,300
But I do also believe that relationships are the utmost importance.

928
00:59:01,300 --> 00:59:07,100
And I think because of the Holy Spirit that dwells within us who call ourselves Christian,

929
00:59:07,100 --> 00:59:10,940
the church should be leading and we have dropped the ball in that.

930
00:59:10,940 --> 00:59:11,940
Yeah.

931
00:59:11,940 --> 00:59:12,940
Amen.

932
00:59:12,940 --> 00:59:13,940
Amen.

933
00:59:13,940 --> 00:59:18,740
So, so some of you who would watch this podcast may have saw my son peek in because he wants

934
00:59:18,740 --> 00:59:23,780
to get back into his dorm room here. So I better get off this call.

935
00:59:23,780 --> 00:59:27,860
Quickly listen to the dudes and dads pop quiz.

936
00:59:27,860 --> 00:59:33,060
All right. Thank you Aaron James. Here we go. All right, Leonard. This is where we just ask

937
00:59:33,060 --> 00:59:37,860
you random questions. Real quick, real quick rapid fire. You can't prepare for it's always a good

938
00:59:37,860 --> 00:59:44,580
time. Here we go. Let's see. Leonard, if you could live anywhere in the world for a year,

939
00:59:44,580 --> 00:59:45,300
where would it be?

940
00:59:45,300 --> 00:59:49,700
Durban, South Africa.

941
00:59:49,700 --> 00:59:54,260
Oh, nice. That's a first South African reference. That's fantastic.

942
00:59:54,260 --> 01:00:00,180
I have visited there, the water, the Indian Ocean. It's beautiful, the people, the music.

943
01:00:00,180 --> 01:00:03,460
It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable.

944
01:00:04,740 --> 01:00:08,420
Which words or phrases do you overuse the most?

945
01:00:08,420 --> 01:00:15,020
Don't do that to my children.

946
01:00:15,020 --> 01:00:18,860
Fair enough.

947
01:00:18,860 --> 01:00:23,820
Leonard Beach, Safari or Forest Vacation?

948
01:00:23,820 --> 01:00:27,540
Forest, I'm a camper. Oh, boy.

949
01:00:27,540 --> 01:00:29,180
I go to Maine.

950
01:00:29,180 --> 01:00:30,860
People, Leonard, I love it.

951
01:00:30,860 --> 01:00:34,460
We used to go up to Maine with the kids and now we go to Vermont.

952
01:00:34,460 --> 01:00:36,440
And we do two weeks tent camping.

953
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:37,240
So nice.

954
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:42,760
You're my when we do our out East tent camping outing someday.

955
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:43,760
You're going to be my contact.

956
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:45,240
You're going to tell us there we go.

957
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:46,080
All right. There we go.

958
01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:48,080
I can't wait. I can't wait.

959
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:49,040
All right. My last one.

960
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:51,480
If there was a sandwich named after you, what would be on it?

961
01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:54,240
What would be on it?

962
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:58,280
Let me think. Wow.

963
01:00:58,280 --> 01:00:59,280
I would.

964
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:01,640
It would you know what?

965
01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:02,680
It's already a sandwich.

966
01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:03,680
It's not named after me.

967
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:07,180
But if I could if I could take the name cheese, they can make it a Leonard.

968
01:01:07,180 --> 01:01:09,320
It would be that. Oh, come on now. Yeah. Yeah.

969
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:14,980
Philadelphia for a resident with ways or without. Oh, no, Wiz.

970
01:01:14,980 --> 01:01:19,080
No, no, true Philadelphia use Wiz. Come on, Andy. Oh, gosh.

971
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:22,120
He got American cheese, bro. He got to use American cheese.

972
01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:24,660
I got a hat. I had a hat. All right. My final question.

973
01:01:24,660 --> 01:01:25,820
We're gonna stay in the food category.

974
01:01:25,820 --> 01:01:27,320
You're a Leonard.

975
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:29,720
What is the weirdest food that you've ever eaten?

976
01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:33,320
You know what? I had friends who invited me over.

977
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:37,160
Hopefully they'll listen to the dead podcast and I think I think it was

978
01:01:37,160 --> 01:01:41,500
figure what country in Africa, but it was a country that used peanut butter a lot

979
01:01:41,500 --> 01:01:43,400
for their food.

980
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:48,500
So I was excited, but they mistakenly used Jeff peanut butter.

981
01:01:48,500 --> 01:01:53,940
Instead of of a stew that you can make out of peanut butter.

982
01:01:53,940 --> 01:02:00,140
And so they used Jeff peanut butter on spaghetti sauce on spaghetti noodles.

983
01:02:00,140 --> 01:02:00,920
Okay.

984
01:02:02,180 --> 01:02:03,940
And it was bad.

985
01:02:03,940 --> 01:02:09,820
That was the weirdest thing that I ever had.

986
01:02:09,820 --> 01:02:12,940
It was one of those times as soon as you say, all right, good night.

987
01:02:12,940 --> 01:02:14,740
I was like, honey, we got to go get a pizza.

988
01:02:14,740 --> 01:02:15,180
Yeah.

989
01:02:15,180 --> 01:02:18,060
Well, Leonard, congratulations.

990
01:02:18,060 --> 01:02:20,420
You have successfully passed the dudes and dads pop quiz.

991
01:02:20,420 --> 01:02:25,100
Friends, thanks for tuning in yet again to another episode.

992
01:02:25,100 --> 01:02:26,300
We're glad that you did.

993
01:02:26,300 --> 01:02:31,300
As always, you can head over to dudesanddadspodcast.com for all the show

994
01:02:31,300 --> 01:02:32,400
notes and good details.

995
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:34,700
We'll make Leonard's contact information.

996
01:02:34,700 --> 01:02:36,740
We'll make him embarrassingly easy to find.

997
01:02:36,740 --> 01:02:39,000
No, no.

998
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:40,240
Yeah, that's right.

999
01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:42,440
They're coming after you, Leonard.

1000
01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:44,080
Also, you can send us an email at

1001
01:02:44,080 --> 01:02:46,440
Jewsandadspodcast@gmail.com.

1002
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:51,020
If you got any great show ideas, comments or harsh rebukes,

1003
01:02:51,020 --> 01:02:51,920
we'll take all of them.

1004
01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:52,820
Yeah.

1005
01:02:52,820 --> 01:02:54,280
Oh, you're going to get some rebukes.

1006
01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:55,460
You're going to get some rebukes.

1007
01:02:55,460 --> 01:02:56,620
I have no doubt.

1008
01:02:56,620 --> 01:02:57,920
That's coming. OK.

1009
01:02:57,920 --> 01:03:01,020
Hey, everybody, until next time, thanks for tuning in.

1010
01:03:01,020 --> 01:03:04,460
We look forward to seeing you and we wish you grace and peace.

1011
01:03:04,460 --> 01:03:14,460
[MUSIC]

1012
01:03:14,460 --> 01:03:24,460
[BLANK_AUDIO]