Have you ever wondered what it's like to transition

from a large architecture firm to running your own small practice or

how your approach to business may need to change or adapt over time?

I. I'm joined by architect Joe Wright, who is lifting the lid on his changing

approach to business, as well as sharing stories from over a decade as

an architecture practice owner in this episode of Architecture Business Club.

The weekly podcast for small firm founders who want to build their

dream business in architecture and enjoy more freedom, flexibility,

and fulfillment in what they do.

I'm John Clayton, your host.

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Now let's discuss Joe's changing approach to business.

Joe Wright is a chartered architect who creates bespoke

homes in London and West Sussex.

His focus is on client collaboration and sustainable design.

Joe has worked on around 10 projects per year for over a decade from design

through to construction, helping turn his clients' houses into fabulous homes

during that time, he's also moved from Tottenham to the seaside town of Worthing

in West Sussex, and overseen building work on three projects on his own home.

Aside from spending time with his architect's wife, two sons, and the mad

cock spaniel, Joe loves mountain biking.

Arsenal Football Club Travel, and is a member of a local gospel choir.

Joe, welcome to Architecture Business Club.

Hi, John.

Thank you very much.

It's great to be here.

It's a pleasure to have you here, Joe.

I think a great place to start.

I, I would love to know a bit more about the local gospel choir.

You're an enthusiastic member of the local choir.

Could you tell me a bit more about that?

I absolutely love it.

It's one of the kind of like highlights of my, my week, my weekly therapy session.

So it's a, a choir called Spring into Seoul.

Um, it's run by a, um.

A a, a very, um, enthusiastic and a large in the life character called, uh, Siggy.

Um, and yeah, we sing, um, mostly gospel.

There's a few bits of other pieces, um, other bits and pieces.

Um, we do a session once a week.

There's two terms a year, and after the end of that we do a concert.

Um, so we perform.

It's probably mostly to friends and family, but we have about

250 people in the audience.

Um, and um, then we do what Ziggy calls out outside broadcasts around and about.

We performed on the beach in wiring where I live with, um,

with a, a local samba band.

Um.

At various different things at weddings, at, at a, a funeral, which was

emotional, but but incredible as well.

And yeah, I, I absolutely love it.

I've always kind of enjoyed singing, but never, you know, really only in the

shower, never done anything with it.

And then while I was still in London, I, I joined a beginner's

pop choir, which was brilliant.

I loved the people there that, that stopped during covid.

And then we moved.

Um, and yeah, I just looked locally for a, for a choir.

I joined a few singing groups, found this one.

The, the people were amazing.

Siggy is amazing and it's just, um, you, you, for, for an hour or so every week.

You just lose yourself in what you're doing.

You, you have to be in the zone and it's incredible for, in so many ways

and like as a community of people, it's also just, it's been brilliant.

So yeah.

Love it.

Oh, that sounds absolutely incredible.

Yeah, I imagine it, it's something that if you've not done it before, it might

feel a little bit, um, scary maybe to give it a try for the first time.

even having been in a choir in this new gospel choir, it

took me a little while to, to get into it, and now I, you know, belt, belt

out the tunes with the best of them.

So Joe, um, we are going to talk about your approach to business

and how that has changed over the years.

I think a nice place to begin would be if you could just tell us a little bit

about what you do in your practice.

Yeah, so we predominantly focus on residential architecture and

our, our focus really is on homes.

Um, and whether that is, um, extending or refurbishing or, or new build homes,

um, we really focus on the clients and making something which is really,

um, personal and, and bespoke to them.

So really listening hard to, to what, what they want.

Then try and identify underneath that, you know, what do they need?

Sometimes challenging, challenging their brief, um, a little bit.

Um, and then we also work with a few, um, developer clients who

when they approach us, they can really understand the value in, in.

In building something that's just really, um, a, a home, it's, it's not just a

transaction, it's not just a building, but they, by, by putting effort and energy

into creating a real home, it's gonna be a, a, a place where people want to

live, live out their lives, perhaps, or, or, you know, an important part of it.

Of it.

And, um.

And we'll invest a little bit more than, you know, they're not just building a

naughty box and then just selling it on.

It's not just a, um, you know, a, a a a cake presser, cookie presser.

Um, and, and, and that's kind of important to us.

So we, we wouldn't necessarily take on projects that, that we can see that are

just about the absolute bottom line.

Just, you know, bang them out.

Um, and then I guess back to our main focus, which is, um, homeowner.

Clients or people that are looking to, to buy a house.

Um, we, we look to just work very closely with them.

Develop, um, a relationship that, well, a lot of, a lot of our clients are

actually, they, they've become friends.

It's a very intense process, designing a home, I think.

Um, so they've become friends just naturally.

'cause you spend so much time with them, you understand them.

I like to think as well that they come to.

Me and, and and us because they, they can sense that there's something

there that's, that's gonna work.

Um, and, and very often, yeah, they, um, we, we, we stay in contact anyway

with clients long after the, the bill 'cause we're interested in how it's gone.

But very often we, we forget to ask about the, the, the house.

It's gonna, like, how's life, you know, because that's, that's, that's one of

the big kind of things that I enjoy it, it's really helping the people

with their home and seeing them happy.

Um, you know, once.

Once they've moved in, hopefully during the process as well, but

once they've moved in, it really becomes their, their home and not

just a, a kind of a bland background.

Yeah.

I, I think that's so lovely that you've managed to build such, um, a

good connection with those clients.

And you said that it, it becomes more like a friendship and that's amazing.

That, that happens throughout the course of, of.

Working with your clients.

If we could rewind a little bit right back to the beginning.

when did you decide that you wanted to be an architect in the first place?

So I add, I, I. Was really into Lego as a child.

That was one of my kind of real, um, enjoyments and escapes as a child.

Um.

And, but I didn't really think about much of the, kind of

that, that skill or interest.

Uh, I guess as a, you know, as a future job, I really wanted to be a, a pilot.

I loved the idea of, of flying, being up in the air, um, and was really into

kind of the idea of birds to prey.

Um, and then I had issues with my ears.

Um, so I realized that actually I probably couldn't do that as a, as a job.

Um, and then when I was about 13 or 14, um, I needed to do a week's

work experience at, um, free school.

I. Um, I was interested in, in course fishing at the time, and, um, so I tried

to get a job or work experience with the National Rivers Authority or, um,

the Environment Agency as it is now.

Um, and, um, I, I couldn't get a job.

They didn't have a placement.

Friend of mine managed to get a, um, a week's work in an architect's

office and I, I think that just opened my mind to the idea of.

Of architecture as a, as a job.

I'd not really thought about it before.

I then applied to a local firm, managed to get a placement,

um, and um, I had a great.

Week there that they gave me actually a really boring task of planning out.

And, um, I wouldn't even say designing a, a car park for, um, for a local

shopping center, really boring.

Um, but it, it did gimme the opportunity to listen what was, to what was going

on in the office and to buzz and, and, um, just listening to conversations.

Um, and um, I remember distinctly there was one.

Phone call came in and it was about a project that was about to

go for planning, uh, for a house.

Um, and the client rang and said, oh, I wanna add in a swimming pool.

Um, and the, the architect, um, put down the phone and there was

a bit of a laugh in the office.

It's like, shock, how do we deal with this?

But then they, they got down and a few of them, we, I could just hear

them kind of in a huddle, working out.

Okay, so what do we do there?

What, what, what would be the best position for it?

How would it work?

How would, how could we work it in, um, into the planning application,

but also in terms of reality?

And I just almost saw like the, the problem solving,

um, process in, in real time.

And that really excited me actually.

Uh, and as I was there, there was, you know, different things going on.

I wouldn't say it was gonna, it wasn't a particularly designer office, but

I still, it still kind of really, um.

Really got my interest up.

Um, so then after that week I started thinking about architecture as a job.

I think I went to see a careers advisor then and, and asked, well, what subjects

would I do if I was to do architecture?

Um.

My mum was brilliant.

She bought me a book on Frank Lloyd Wright.

I didn't really know much about architects or architecture and uh, I share my

surname almost with Frank Lloyd Wright.

Um, so, um, and obviously, you know, he has some absolute iconic

designs and I think I've kinda come round, full circle really.

But the idea of the home and, um, his, his, his different kind

of ways of thinking about home.

So anyway, that got me kind of.

Sucked in and in the line.

And then I, I realized that, that all the GCC that I, I would need to do were

things that I was good at and enjoyed.

So I really liked maths and science and art.

Um, and then I chose my A levels on that basis as well and having

researched a little bit more.

Um, and then I chose to go to the University of Nottingham, to

the architecture course There.

I, I think probably of the people there on those first few days, I knew the least.

About what I was getting into, but after the first year, I was absolutely hooked.

Um, it, you know, really, um, the course really embedded a, a passion

for design, um, into me as well as the kind of the bits that I expecting

you, the problem solving stuff.

That's, that's, I'd already enjoyed that.

So, yeah.

Um, and then the following years, I think it's, it's, as you know,

with, with design, it, it's not.

It's not easy, they're not easy courses.

There's a lot to cover.

Um, so, um, yeah, I progressed through from that point and, um, I, I kind of

initially thought seven years being a student would be, um, absolute

bliss and I found out quite quickly.

It's a lot of hard work.

Um, but yeah, I progressed through and, um, qualified and, and here I am.

That's fantastic.

I, I think what's really interesting, um, the story that you shared about that

work experience, that thank goodness that that client decided to have a swimming

pool on that property because had you not seen that problem solving, taking

place, that demonstration of that.

You, you might have come away from that week thinking, ah,

is this what this is all about?

Just drawing car parks.

I mean, talk about a dual task to give you to work on.

I'm trying to think what would be worse than that.

Or, or less interesting.

Maybe some sanitary schedules,

yeah, I, it was probably a bit of a sliding doors moment, you know,

in a way I could have come away from that just thinking, yeah, that's dull.

I dunno what I'd be, I, I dunno what the, the, maybe I would've found my

way in, into architecture in some way.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It could have been, there could have been another route into it.

after that, you, you could have gone on to just stay working.

For another practice, but you set up your own practice.

I'm interested to know what led you to set up your own practice.

so I think early on when, when I was looking to apply for university.

And as I say, I was probably a little bit kind of green.

I didn't know that much about the industry, but I thought that I just,

I would like to set up on my own.

I'd like to do my own things.

I didn't really know what that meant, certainly on the business side.

Um, but as, as I've been working probably for university, I didn't

really think about it that much.

I was just concentrating on.

You know, doing the design work and, and kind of, um, getting through

each, each kind of hoop and each year.

But then as I was working, I, I joined, um, well now a quite large architecture

company based in London, a a among other places, Allford, hall, Mon and Morris.

Um, or, or HMM.

Um, and I joined straight after my part two.

Um, and um, I also did my part three while I was working there.

Um, and they, they were brilliant with me.

Actually.

I, I kind of was, was lucky to land on a, into a project and my first week where

the director involved wanted to, um, wanting to do design but not much more.

So I ended up really.

Essentially being the project architect on, um, on a tower, a

glass tower block, um, just south of black fries bridge in, in Suffolk.

Um, and, and then that meant that I was, I was kind of heavily involved

in all the meetings and, um, the, the actual kind of partners of the

company newly me by name quite quickly.

Um, so although, um, although the chap was, was doing the, the kind

of main design ideas, I was kind of.

Dealing with a lot of the other things.

Um, and I, as I progressed through the, through the practice, I, I just felt

that, um, so they, they were great.

They did great stuff.

Mix of commercial schools, e everything that I kind of enjoyed about architecture.

They, they were doing really nice design, really well thought out.

They're amazing at marketing, so they always had loads of work.

Um, but.

The, the more meetings I attended with chaps in suits, um, who weren't the end

users, weren't gonna be the end users.

Um, my, my kind of, uh, part of the office was more commercially focused.

Um, the less engaged I got, I think some people really enjoyed that, but I didn't.

Um, and then, um, over time, um, I just started to get an urge to work on.

Smaller stuff for end user clients, um, and to, to really just, yeah, almost

dial right back to the beginning.

Um, and I, I could have joined a, a small practice and, and got experience.

Um, I remember telling, um, Simon Orford about it, so one of the, the,

the kind of partners in the firm.

Um, and, um, he said, I, I think you're ready to go now.

Now, Joe, you know, just, um, I. Just, just go for it.

Just, you know, just jump.

Um, because you've got all the skills.

Um, a a lot of the stuff that we do, you are kind of learning as you go anyway.

You've, you've learned how to take on information and how to

research and, and then to use that.

Um, so yeah, he said just go for it.

Um, so, um, I, we, I did six months traveling.

With my wife before I set up, um, incidentally I'd met her at, at a

HMM, um, on some of the social things.

Um, and, um, yeah, I, I just went from there.

Wow.

So having set things up, I'm interested, like have, having started

your own business then having started your own practice, particularly

in those early years, I mean, how, how did you find new clients?

How did you, you get work after you started?

I.

So when I, when I sit up, we'd just got back from traveling.

Uh, we spent quite a lot more money.

Than we were anticipating, which happens.

I, I had a, um, we had a kind of a fund and I had a, a fund kind of ready to set

up with, uh, and that essentially all went, so I contracted for a little while.

Um, and, um, this, this would've been around, um, 20 10, 20 11.

Um, so I didn't have any clients.

I'd not been working in the background taking on.

Stuff.

I, I didn't feel as though I had the capacity, um, to, to, you know, work a

full-time job and, and do that on top.

Um, I'd done a couple of kind of tiny projects for, for friends,

but, um, really I had no momentum.

So it, it was a, an absolute standing start.

Um, but as, as I was, as I kind of went, um.

FI finished my, um, my part, my, my contract, um, contracting had a couple

of weeks where, um, I was thinking about, well, how do I get clients?

Um, and I, I tried to think of people that might be able to help me.

I contacted, um, a friend from my part three who'd, um, set up

a practice a few years before with her husband, and they were.

Really flying, really, really going really well.

Um, and I thought initially that maybe I could help 'em out

a little bit, um, part-time.

And actually they said, well, actually we, we, we've got a couple of projects

that, um, we don't really want to do.

They're a bit small for us now.

Would you be interested?

So I said, yeah, of course.

So they, they sent me on the contact details, um, spoke to the clients,

um, and I think one or two of those projects turned into, um, an actual.

Project for us in the office.

Um, and I, I think we did pretty well on them.

So they told their friends, um, they brought in other projects.

Then I also did a ring around, um, local builders.

Um, this is in North London.

Um, and some of them had been looking for architects to help them out.

So little bits and pieces then kind of came in through that.

Um, and then actually also I was, I went for a drink with one of the, um.

One of the directors at the HMM, um, said, there's not really enough

work here to, to pay the bills.

Um, and they, they took me on, um, freelancing, um, two or three days a week.

I, I did the structural coordination on a project there, their University

of Amsterdam project, and then in my other days, I could then

just focus on the business.

Doing the projects that, um, that I had in, uh, and then just kind of building.

And I, I kind of felt that in having that time and having those days, um, I was

then putting the word out there more.

I was just ringing round and, and by, by kind of being there, um, and,

and kind of having to shout about it.

So I didn't have much on that.

Kind of brought the, that kind of brought the work in.

I love that, that you were proactive about that, that

you were making those phone calls and that you look to your existing

network of connections as well.

You looked at, well, I. Your previous employer and the other practices that

you'd had dealings with, that there was potential opportunities there.

You could contact them and see if they needed help, if they were busy and,

and had more work than they needed.

So that's a really good idea if you need to get some more work For sure.

I mean that definitely is a challenge for a lot of small

businesses, finding clients.

I mean, running a business generally.

Isn't easy.

I'd be interested to know what you've personally found most difficult in

running a business over the years.

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Now, back to the show.

So I think there's.

Probably two things for me.

So, um, money definitely, and, and the flow of money.

Um, and then I think the, the difficult clients, I would say

were the, were the two biggest.

Um, so in terms of money, as I say, we didn't have much on in, well I

didn't have much on in the early days.

It was just me.

Um.

I, I wasn't really sure what I should charge for, for the work that I was doing.

Um, and when I got a project in, I was spending way more time, um, on

the project than the fees would allow if, if I, if I wanted to have anything

more than a, a minimum wage, um, say.

So, um, I was.

I was still able to pay my share of the bills, um, just about, but wasn't

really bringing anything in for, you know, um, that we could put towards

anything else, saving or, you know, holidays or anything like that.

Um, and, um, I, I kind of felt guilty almost about charging.

So when, when I was working, when I was at HMM under a practice, they were,

they were giving me the work to do, uh, and then they were charging for it,

and they, they were, they were also.

Very good at, um, explaining what their value was.

I didn't feel that I didn't know how to do that as well,

and it's not really, really me.

Um, so, so even though the output I think was really good and the

feedback I was getting from clients was really, really positive, the fees

were low and it took me quite a long time to, um, have the confidence to.

Ask for a bit more in, in a fee, put more in a fee proposal.

Um, I think probably as well, I, I started taking, um, people on and I realized

like I had to pay them a, you know, a, a decent wage, um, and then still

have something left over to, to pay me.

So, um, I think it was the, the realities essentially I was

forced to, to put up the fees.

Um, I think.

Possibly the very, very early days.

I was, um, I was still learning a lot about the kinda small projects.

So, um, there was a little bit of the, the clients kind of took

a, a, a bit of a leap of faith.

Um, so I, I think that was probably fair.

But, um, yeah, as, as time went on, just balancing the books, um, and we went

up at one point to about five people, um, and trying to bring in enough work.

Keep to the fees within the time budgets that we'd set.

Um, get the quality of the work right.

Um, that was really difficult and actually I found that my, what I was able to pay

myself really went down the bigger we got.

Um, and basically 'cause I wasn't really managing the, the team,

um, I, I would say and the fees.

Um, but, um, but also, you know, I was taking on work that I didn't

necessarily want to do, just to, to keep the guys working.

So, um, so that, that was very challenging.

Um, I would say, and still is.

We we're, I'd say we're a little bit slow at the moment.

Um, so, um, we, we are kind of fine again, we're kind of paying the bills.

We're doing okay, but we have capacity to, to do a lot more.

Um, and perhaps we'll touch on that later.

Um.

The other one was difficult clients.

Um, and I think it is probably an a another factor of, of confidence.

So related to the, the guilt of charging early on, I, I felt really obliged to

take on any, any project I could get.

Um, and I ended up working for, um, a couple of really unpleasant people,

separate projects, um, who kind of took advantage, I think of my.

Nice boy character.

Um, and I, I spent a huge amount of time chasing my tail, trying to produce stuff,

keep their projects moving, um, but also satisfy them to, to keep them happy.

Um, and, um, I'm not really sure actually, ultimately they

could ever have been satisfied.

Um.

And then because I wasn't managing those clients appropriately, um,

it knocked onto my other project.

So it, it really, it really affected my output on those and the quality

of experience, not necessarily the output, because I worked really

hard to kinda keep up the output.

But, um, in terms of the communication with the clients and their experience,

I, I, that, that slipped and that was, as I said at the start, that's

one of the things that I really.

Hold as, as important as, you know, as the Holy Grail.

Um, so yeah, with my time and focus being diverted away from those projects, the

more pleasant clients, the one I wanted more of, um, I, I kind of lost out.

Um, and, um, I, I'd say that, that, that, that the horrible

clients who I didn't want more of weren't gonna be happy anyway.

So, um, yeah, I, I kind of shot myself in the foot in that respect,

but I think I've learned over time.

To look out for potential clients like that who are gonna be difficult.

Try and if it's a couple, try and meet both of them before

even sending a fee proposal.

Um, I think possibly as well that because I'm more confident, you,

you, you, um, you lay the lines down quite early, so perhaps.

There's less difficult clients because I'm kind of educating them.

They, they kind of realize that they can't overstep.

Um, but definitely there, there are, there are inquiries that come in and I just get

a sense, it's almost like a gut feeling.

I just don't wanna work with them.

We, we could be tied to, to the, any client.

Um, so the difficult one tied to, with, with the, the pleasant clients,

it's, you know, I love doing it.

It's, it's not a tie, but it could be one or two years that you're

working really intensively with them.

If.

If you don't like them, if they take away from you as a person,

it's, it's not a good thing.

It's not healthy.

So I really try and spot them early on and, and just not get involved.

Yeah.

I could really relate to those challenges, Joe.

And they are interlinked because, uh, you mentioned that if you've got

insufficient or inconsistent cash flow, that when an inquiry comes in.

Particularly if you've got team members that you're working with that

you need to keep busy you are under pressure to then say yes to clients

that you really don't wanna work with, even though your gut is telling you.

And our gut is often a really good indicator, isn't it?

I've found that my, um, prior experience I've had bad clients

too, and I can look back and say.

Honestly that in each of those instances, my gut had already told

me not to work with that client.

There was clear signs, indicators, alarm bells that were already ringing,

but because it was at a point when I didn't have enough clients at

the time that I needed more work, I said yes and then regretted it

It's really difficult, isn't it?

When when it, when it happens and you're in it and you're kind of

signed up, you've, you've got to, you've got to finish the project.

I, I guess at certain points you could say sorry and jump off,

but I, I don't think it reflects, you know, great to, to kind of.

Jump off partway through having charged some fees and, and invoice.

Um, but it's a real drain.

Um, you know, a couple of times it's, you know, it affects your other work.

It also affects your mental health.

You know, I think, um, and well I've experienced, um, and, um,

although you develop over time.

More resilience having dealt with these people.

I still wouldn't wanna deal with the, the, the first couple of kind of

bad clients I had 11, 12 years ago.

I wouldn't want to deal with them now.

Um, it would be just as draining, I'm sure.

I think that it ties into something else you touched upon earlier

where there's a difference between if you're working somewhere and you are,

you are doing part of the work and then somebody else is dealing with the billing

or the kind of onboarding versus being a solopreneur or solo practitioner or

a micros size practice where you are.

Leading things and you are responsible for all of that and

actually physically working on the design because naturally, like most

creatives tends to be emotionally connected to the work that they do.

And as a consequence, when we do get pushback or client issues that we're

dealing with, that we can take it really personally and absolutely like it.

It totally affects your mental health.

Like I had an instance a number of years ago with a client that

my gut told me not to work with.

I did anyway at the time, and we got to a point when I'd just decided we,

we couldn't work together anymore.

They weren't fully open about what they wanted.

My normal process that's developed is very collaborative

to avoid this type of situation.

This is one of the reasons why it's done that way, and I, I ignored my

gut, classic creative issues there.

Fast forwarding a bit, Joe.

I'm interested to know what business development and marketing activities

that you've been doing more recently.

Could you tell me a bit about that?

Yeah, sure.

I, I mean, I would say in my mind recently we, we'd kind of cover the next few years.

Um, and things have changed kinda quite a lot.

Um, I didn't do any marketing for most of the time that we'd been set up, apart

from ringing around, as I say, builders and, and, um, friends who had practices.

Um.

I had a website, um, and I remember just every time I looked at the website being

really, um, underwhelmed and, and actually disappointed because in my mind I.

I, we were about people and clients and their homes.

And I'd had, um, I'd taken some photos and had a professional pho

photographer take some photos of some of our completed projects.

They're really lovely, lovely projects.

There were no people in them.

And actually the, the, the, the home element that the bit that

showed it was lived in was kind of tidied away a little bit.

Um, and I'm.

Uh, I'm interested in architecture, I'm interested in design, but it, it's,

it's where that accommodates home.

Um, you know, that, that's really important to me.

Um, so a few years ago I started to focus on the website a bit more.

Um, so I, I guess it's kind of.

Giving the message, what, what is the message I'm trying to, um, put over?

Uh, and the original one on the website, it, it just didn't really

show what we, what we did properly.

Um, and I, um, worked with a friend James West of of West

Creative who helped me to, um.

Develop, develop those ideas, I guess, and, and to, to really kind of nail

down what, what it is that I did and wanted to do and, and how I kind

of put myself when I'm chatting to clients, how I put myself out there.

Um, and he helped me produce, um, a series of interviews with clients.

So he, he brought in a journalist, he arranged it all, some photographers, um,

who took photos of, um, of the clients.

So this was clients whose projects had completed, um.

Say two or three years beforehand.

Um, and we sat down with them.

Um, it was a little bit like this, we just had a bit of a, a chat.

So I was chatting with them.

Um, and then the journalists, um, interviewed them and it, it was a little

bit to understand I. The process of working with me, but it was more, what's

it like working with an architect?

You know, why, why did you want to, um, have a project done on your home?

Worked on your home, and, and how did you find it?

What went well?

What, what didn't?

Um, and that actually really brought out loads, loads of things, loads

of ideas and, and, and things that in my mind I felt that we

were doing, but it wasn't kind of.

Shown someone.

It was, it was somewhere it wasn't validated.

So those, those interviews were written up, um, by James,

um, the, the, the journalist.

Um, and there was a graphic designer as well.

Um, and then they were, they set up a, a little book.

Joe Architect's book, um, of, of the interviews, um, and then photos of me

and clients and some of the clients and them just having been interviewed.

They were just comfortable in their homes and enjoying it and explaining why they

were enjoying it, so that, that then, um.

Sat there essentially for a little while.

That was my marketing.

Um, and then things started to slow down, I think over the last couple of years,

coinciding with the rise in interest rates and the squeeze, um, on, um.

Cost of living, et cetera.

Um, and, um, I really realized that I needed to, to get the word out there

more, I'd moved down from, um, north London down to Wiring West Sussex.

Most of our work is still, um, in London, or lots of, it's still in London.

Um, currently I'm pushing to get more work down in, in Wiring and West Sussex.

Um, but I need to put the word out there.

So I started doing networking, um, which I'd never done before.

It terrified me.

Um, and I thought it'd be really awkward and, and, and it would just be lots of

people kind of back in, back into the kind of suits, round the table, um, idea of

just people selling stuff to each other.

Um, but I started doing it through the local Chamber of Commerce and

I've knit some really lovely people.

Um.

I really enjoyed it and kind of just developed, um, I guess professional

relationships, friendships, um, only started in the last six months or so.

I wouldn't say it's necessarily generated, um, any direct work, but it feels as

though something's happening through that.

Um, and then I've, I've done a little, like a sign board on

one of our projects locally, um, beachfront, um, five new build build

houses on a, on the beachfront.

Um, I'm talking to an estate agent about like a. I love it or list it type idea.

So they might introduce us to potential buyers and then we might

do the same with our clients.

They, they would help with valuations and projections in terms of value,

and then we would help with ideas.

And maybe that's a bit of a, a way in, even if it just raises profile,

I think it'd be helpful perhaps do a little article in the local paper.

Um.

Then the, the even more the networking.

Um, the other thing I've been doing and that I thought I'd always hate

was a little bit of social media.

So I've started to dip my toe, um, into LinkedIn.

I've done two posts so far, so very pleased with myself, um, and, um, planning

to, to do more and, and getting used to a post as not being this kind of absolutely

polished thing that you need to work on for six months, um, that you could

just kind of put something out there.

So.

All of that is, I think, raising profile.

Um, I've also been to, um, some training workshops for marketing, um, and joined

the A BC, um, architecture business club service, um, which obviously you

run John, um, and is peer to peer, um, I guess mentoring and, and coaching.

That's been brilliant and as a space to, uh, sit back from the business, the day

to day of the business and being kind of.

Right up to the, the work, it's right in your face.

You're stepping back a little bit and thinking about, well, where do

I actually want to go with this?

What, what do I do?

Um, I found that brilliant as well as the, the other marketing training things I've

done, and even at CPDs where you sit back.

Um, so it's difficult when, when you're working on your own, essentially.

You know, I have, uh, be a lady who's been working with me for,

I think probably about 10 years now, is absolutely brilliant.

Um, and, um, really kind of like get through loads of work, but that, that

kind of level where you're bouncing ideas off at the, at the business level, um,

I, I haven't had, so to be able to do that, I've to step back and just think

in my own head, um, or to bounce off ideas with people or hear how they work,

um, has been really brilliant and it just gives you a bit of a, sometimes,

um, a bit of accountability and.

It.

It's very easy to procrastinate on an idea and not do anything for a long time.

So sometimes you just need to kick up the bum and just get on with it.

Oh, I love that, Joe.

Thanks so much for the plug.

I'll, I'll give, I'll send the a hundred quid over

You.

I love the, the things that you've shared are, it's

all very proactive, which I love that you're not just the classic.

Which you mentioned that you had done in the past, which was the, you know,

they build it and they will come.

So it's the, okay, we've got a website, we've got a little

bit of a portfolio on there.

Our work speaks for itself.

Like we don't need to do anything else.

Like that's, that's enough, but it's not enough.

Like sometimes you can.

Manage.

You can have seasons when there can be enough from word of mouth and

referrals, but then if you want to have a consistent pipeline of sales inquiries

coming in it, it's quite funny isn't it, that we want to have consistent

sales and work, but we are not actually doing con six consistent activities.

To bring those inquiries in and, and to deliver those results, you know?

So, um, I love the fact that you've been really proactive with everything

and you've been leaning into some things that were previously outside

of your comfort zone, like going to the networking events, I mean.

Podcast interviews, like, uh, this is your first ever podcast

interview and you've been amazing.

You've been fantastic.

So that's, again, that's something else that you could do more of in the future.

So, um, yeah, really excited to see how your business develops,

uh, over the coming years.

Joe, I'd like to know, what's one thing you wish you'd started

doing five years earlier?

I think that's really easy.

Uh, and I think it's the networking, um, because, um, I. As

I say, I was scared of doing it.

I thought it was gonna be really awkward.

Um, I'm not the most outgoing of people.

They, once, once I start chatting, you know, if I'm comfortable with

someone, I can then kind of go.

Um, but being in a new situation with people, I don't know,

I find really, really scary.

But having done it a couple of times, it's, it's just, um.

Or can be fun.

There are people around you who want to chat.

Um, there might be a group of people chatting.

They probably only met that day, but from the outside you think, oh,

you know, that it's, it's a clique.

They're all mates.

But I started to just push myself and just say, oh, hello, how are you doing?

You know, what, what, what's your name?

What you get up to?

And then you might just talk about your business very briefly, but then

you just talk, talk about other things like the, the kids, the dog, um.

The football club I love gets some, some size and, and some grins.

Um, but um, yeah, I mean I think the, um, the people to people thing,

it's, it is what I've always loved in terms of working with the clients.

Um, and I think that it was, um, something that, that lay

completely untapped, um, for me.

Um, and, um, yeah, I, I've enjoyed it and I could just see that even

if I never meet a client directly.

Just by meeting people who just have their ear to the ground.

Um, and what I often do is just show them my brochure.

If they're interested in what I do.

It's very difficult to kinda explain or talk about a design or, you

know, what, what does a happy client look like, but just show them my

brochure and just, you know, well this is, this is kind of how we work.

And really quickly they get an idea.

Um, and then hopefully that just stays with them.

And then maybe if one of their mates.

Wants to do an extension or even a new build, um, that

they'll, they'll think of me.

Um, and it, it just broadens out the, the, the potential, um, net, if you like.

I guess it's networking, isn't it?

That, that, that net that you've cast out of, of people that can,

um, almost kind of advocate.

For you.

Um, you know, be it like a, a a, a informal, um, sales force if you like.

So yeah, it, it's definitely networking and it, it, it's been good.

And, and I'm gonna, I've only been doing it six months or so.

I'm gonna keep going with it 'cause um, yeah, it's been brilliant.

Yeah, I've, I, I've had a similar experience that I've had a

number of years where I didn't do really any networking, and not that long ago I

started going to some local networking events, and I've really enjoyed it

too, and that those same feelings of.

That fear of like walking into a room of like 30 or 40 people and feeling

like you are the, the new person there and like where do you even start?

Oh, everyone else knows each other.

But I've very quickly found that that's just not the case.

That there's a lot of other people there that also feel exactly the same way.

You know that classic you walk in and.

You get talking to somebody and it's like, oh, you know, is it your first time here?

Yeah, it's my first time too.

Oh.

I don't normally like going to these sorts of things, but I

thought I'd give it a trial.

That's the same for me.

And you find there's a lot of, commonality there with other

people we're all the same.

There's all sorts of other people that are probably feeling exactly the same

way that you felt about networking before you went, decided going and, and then

realize that it's not so bad after all.

And as you say, it can, can actually be quite fun.

It can.

Yeah.

And.

Even the, what?

What I found is even the old hands.

If you say, oh, you know, this is my, my first time.

Not really sure you know, how, how this works.

They tend to be really, really nice and just say, well, it works

exactly what you've just done.

You walk up to us and you say hello and something to just break the ice, like.

Not really sure what I'm doing because then you just, you just start chatting.

Um, so that, that's what I've, I've found, I've just, I've only done,

you know, a handful of events, I guess, but I just feel a lot more

comfortable with, with kind of walking up to people and, and saying, hello.

I.

Oh, that's really good.

I can't remember the episode number, what we did do a podcast

episode about networking.

So if anyone else is listening, thinking.

I'd like to get more into networking, understand some of the

benefits and how to go about it.

Then, then go back and check out that podcast episode.

Joe, it's probably time for us to start to wrap things up now.

So I was just wondering what was the main thing that you'd like everyone

to take away from this conversation?

Um, I, I think because it, it, it's happened a, a number of times in

both my career and then with the business.

Um, I think it's really, it's, it's not being scared to or overcoming

the, the, the fear of taking the leap.

I. Um, and it, it's so easy to to wait to procrastinate and

research and think about it.

Um, but, um, so whether, whether that's going into architecture, say, um, or

starting a practice, um, or, or going into networking, um, I, I think, you

know, we tend to, if we're particular type of person like me, you hesitate

and, and think about it and you know, or what if, what if it goes wrong?

Um, and I think.

You probably just need to go ahead and jump and you kind of deal with

and manage and learn as you go along.

You deal with the things that come up.

Um, but if you don't take that first step, you are not going anywhere.

Yeah.

I love that.

Thanks for sharing that, Joe.

Was there anything else that you wanted to share that we haven't already covered?

No, I don't think so.

I think we've covered a fair amount of ground.

You've covered quite a lot, haven't we?

Okay.

So we both love to travel and to discover new places, and I'd like it if you

could tell me about one of your favorite places and what you love about it.

This is really difficult because I've, I've

been to quite a few places.

I've been off traveling for long periods, twice, um, Southeast Asia and Australia

and, and then a sate of my wife to India.

And, um, I. South America.

Um, I'd say if I was to open it up to the whole world, probably Bolivia, um, around,

um, salad Uni, the, the Salt Flats.

Um, but actually probably the, the, my favorite that go-to place in my mind.

If someone talks about, well, where would you go if you could go anywhere?

Right now it'd be Island, it'd be Southwest Cork, um, which is

where my mum's family are from.

Um, we used to go there a lot.

When, when I was a child, when I was a child, my, my grandparents

had a, a bungalow in skull, um, which is kind of close to the very

southwest, um, of, of the county.

Um, and it's so beautiful.

Um, it can be quite bleak.

Um, so beautiful.

The people are just incredibly friendly.

They've got a very singy accent, which is just really nice to be around.

Um, and, um, many childhood happy childhood memories.

And then we go back, um, we went back last year as a, as a family.

We, whenever I go back, I just get that kind of feeling again of.

Of of being at, at home and being kind of welcome and, and yeah.

It's just so beautiful.

It's a place that I think just it, it recharges me.

Um, so yeah.

I love it

Oh, fantastic.

And they also do an amazing part of Guinness over there.

If, if you haven't been to islands, you have to go and you have to try

the Guinness while you're there.

Although it's Murphy's in Cork.

Oh, Murphy's down in Cork.

Oh yeah.

I haven't seen that much, uh, over in, in England for a while, but, um, yeah.

I'll, I'll bear that in mind the next time I'm, I'm back over there.

Joe, this has been awesome.

Thank you so much for being a guest on the show.

If people would like to connect with you online, what's the

best way for them to do that?

I, I think you should use my LinkedIn profile.

Um, I'm using that more and more.

Um, and, um, it, it's under Joe Wright architects, although it, it's, it's me.

Um, so yeah, contact me on that and then I'll be learning how to use it

as, as we go and I'll ping you back and perhaps make some more posts as well.

Excellent.

And what about your website, Joe?

So it's Joe Wright architects.co.uk.

Perfect.

Thanks again, Joe.

Thank you, John.

It's been a real pleasure.

I've really enjoyed myself.

Next time I'm joined by Ray Brown to learn how you can

dramatically improve your results as an architecture practice owner.

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