Hello, I'm Henry.

And I'm Maureen.

and today we have on our podcast Ludmila Praslova, who is on the

guru radar of the Thinkers 50 and very involved in neurodiversity

Well, this is gonna be an exciting one, looking at

neurodiversity, so, oh, can't wait.

But in, before we get Ludmila on Henry, what's been giving you joy?

Well, I've had a couple of Liberating Structures events.

I've had one today and I've had an immersion workshop, which is a

full eight Liberating Structures.

And Liberating Structures are about.

Um, well, if you, uh, do you ever have people who dominate in your meetings

or events, um, this is a way to avoid that and give people an equal voice.

Uh, one example is one, two for all, where you spend, where whatever

the topic is, you spend a minute in private reflection, two minutes in

pairs, four minutes in fours, and then you all come back together.

And we, we use, uh, the Structures Throughout our leadership

management courses, don't we?

No, it really does work.

I mean, first of all, I was like, Ooh, looks like it's a long

process, but it's a process that actually is about inclusivity.

Everyone's involved, everyone gets charged to speak their

truth and share their ideas.

And what, what has been your joy at work?

Or joy generally?

you know me, Henry, I go beyond joy at work.

You can do the joy at work.

I'm just giving you joy.

Okay?

So my joy this time is I've actually booked, one of my

bucket lists dreams, and that is to go see the Northern Lights.

Oh wow.

Yes.

So I have now booked to go to see the Northern Lights in Norway.

And yes, I will be doing that in the midst of winter.

You know, I prefer the heat.

Yeah.

Yeah, I know.

you're gonna have to look out for me because I don't usually do the cold.

I know, But I'm excited, so I'm already gonna, I'm filled with Joy

already and that's gonna last me a long time until I've seen the lights.

Excellent.

Over to Ludmila.

Ludmila you are an organizational, organizational psychologist at

Vanguard University in Southern California, and you are also on

the Guru radar of the Thinkers 50.

How, how is it to be on that?

Wonderful.

I love Thinkers 50 and the colleagues and my experience.

Great fun.

Awesome.

so, Ludmila, finding out more about you, every time I am reading

a blog, listening to videos, and one of the things, um, amongst many

that stood out for me is something that you talk about autistic joy.

Absolutely.

It's something that seems counter stereotypical because there's just so

many stories and portrayals, uh, that show artistic experiences just such

sad and gloomy, which obviously there are some disabling experiences, but

the point about autistic experience is.

Intensity.

So if we experience joy and positive emotions, they can

also actually be very intense.

So it doesn't just go in the negative direction.

It goes in both directions.

But people hardly ever talk about the positive side.

So autistic people can have immense joy, for example, from connecting with

nature, experiencing, experiencing very deeply from working on our

interests, from learning something.

So there's a lot of, uh, intense.

Positive experience as well.

And of course, if society is treating us well, we're much more likely to

experience, uh, those joyful times.

But, uh, it's just something that people usually lose the sight of that

autistic experience is more intense and it applies to positive experience.

So we've started off talking about autistic joy.

So Ludmila, can you just tell us about autism as well and your recent, well

you had a diagnosis in 2020, I believe.

Yes, and boy, this is such a huge question.

To do it justice would obviously require a long time because it is such

a large group of people who are very different from each other in many ways.

There are characteristics, uh, that are similar.

For example, many people tend to have intense interests.

Uh, many people have sensory sensitivities, but again, not everyone.

Uh, some people like intense sensory experiences.

Other people are, uh, overwhelmed by it.

And, um, there are different degrees to which autistic people can

experience social environments as, uh.

stressful or difficult, but again, not everyone, and not in every context.

For example, there are famous autistic actors and comedians, so again, it would

be stereotypical to say that we just, you know, can't even think about doing

anything in front of the crowd because, and, and there's plenty of professors.

So, uh, it's a very, very broad, uh, group of people you met one autistic

person, you met one autistic person.

But there are characteristics that to some extent, uh, most of us share.

So, uh, sometimes people might, uh, for example, prefer, uh, the routine.

And to some people it's being on a very.

Similar schedule all the time.

For other people, for example, it's food and, uh, they like having very

predictable, uh, kinds of food.

I, for example, don't have this particular characteristic, uh,

but I, I don't like moving, so it's not exactly the same way.

How a preference for routine and sameness can be exhibited and in some

of, some of us, like change in some areas of our lives and not in others.

So I just, I'm trying to avoid stereotypes because again, even, uh,

depending on your gender, your social economic class, again, all of this is

going to color your autistic experience.

Okay, so how, so how can organizations move beyond stereotypes

of neurodivergent individuals?

Enable them to play to their strengths?

Well, that's what my entire book is about.

And uh, so there are many ways, and I think organizations should allow

everyone to play to their strengths.

Because organizations are losing so much.

According to statistics, very few people even get to work

with their main strength at all in, uh, in a given work week.

It is a little bit more pronounced need for neurodivergent people

because many neurodivergent people have spiky profiles of abilities.

So we are really, really good at something and really, really

not good at something else.

So capitalizing on our strengths and allowing us to do that, be through

job crafting or creating job positions that actually make sense and don't

ask someone to do statistics and answer the phones, which people do.

And uh, that would.

Help everyone who help organizations but will particularly, uh, help

neurodivergent people to be on their best and to work with those

talents that are pronounced.

And it's easier said than done because traditional organizational,

uh, practices value sameness.

So it would require some different managerial approaches and different

thinking in how we structure jobs, in how we define jobs.

And a little bit less focus on, okay, this is how I envision the job and

I'm going to try a human into it, even if it requires doing something

to that human is that's pretty painful, but rather creating jobs.

And we can do it now.

Many jobs now have a lot of flexibility and, uh, allow

creating jobs around humans.

And I call it strengths-based .Staffing rather than trying to, you know,

cram a human, uh, in, you know, like square packs into round holes, how

about will create this a little bit more complicated picture, but where

people feed within their strengths and, uh, you can create an organization

that is much more productive.

If we spend most of our time doing what we're good at and what gives us joy.

Rather than doing drudgery for the most part, and then doing something

we allow for 10 minutes a week.

That doesn't make any sense for anybody.

so does that link to, uh, I've, I've heard you talk about joy crafting?

Yes, we talked about job crafting for a long time, which is creating,

uh, allowing people to be a little bit creative and changing their

responsibilities and changing, how maybe certain aspects of their work are done.

What I'm proposing is joy crafting, which is a little bit further.

Really focusing, not just, okay, you are good at something, but

also what's life giving to you?

And focusing on the emotional aspect of work, which is another part of my book.

Very few people talk about emotional, uh, inclusion, emotional aspect of

work, which isn't just, you know, because someone has a problem.

No, emotion is just an everyday part of our life, and we can treat

it as something that can enrich everyone's experience rather than

telling people, okay, forget who you are, just come here and sit

there with a, you know, blank face.

And that's what we want from you.

Why not design work?

Around joy, right?

Indeed.

That's what we do at Happy.

Very definitely.

Um, so your book is called The Canary Code and it's out in the UK in May.

Um, and that's based on the canaries in the coal mines, isn't it?

Because, you were talking there about strengths and because, uh, of

strengths from neurodivergent people is great for everybody really, isn't it?

Exactly, so, canaries are not defective, right?

Canaries were taken to the coal mine, which is a true story, uh, because

their air metabolism is more intense.

So they are, uh, first to feel, uh, toxic air.

And the same thing with neurodivergent people, because neurodivergent

people experience the world more intensely, again, the good and the bad.

When there's the bad in the organization, like, uh, toxic

leadership, bullying, uh, scheduling, that doesn't make any sense, uh,

neurodivergent people are more likely to suffer first, but then

everyone else is going to suffer just like with canaries and the miners.

So yes, let's create good organizations where canaries can thrive

because then everyone can thrive.

That's a great analogy.

There really is.

So, so just building on that, because um, I think I was reading where you

were talking about autism and new direct virgins is expanding beyond

autism, but at the same breath it is also understanding that lots of

people as yourself have been diagnosed with autism recently and women in

particular have been diagnosed later though there, there's lots of women.

So tell me more about that, there was lots of women being misdiagnosed.

Oh my I even have an appendix in my book for managers about late diagnosis

because so many people don't get it.

Uh, you know, you are successful, you've been doing all those things.

And how come you are autistic or you have ADHD or uh, I did, I never knew

you were dyslexic or whatever it is.

And especially, uh, uh, autism, ADHD, uh, learning difference

sometimes actually also could be masked by high intelligence.

So it is not impossible even for learning differences to

be, uh, diagnosed later on.

But, uh, one aspect obviously is gender and most of research, uh,

early research on autism was done on little boys, and the criteria

are written to describe little boys.

Well, little girls are different and, uh, uh, girls are more likely to try

harder to fit in, not just girls.

There are, not necessarily girls, but statistically more likely,

uh, to want to fit in, to try to please, to try to appear social, uh,

even if it doesn't come naturally.

Or let's say, uh, for ADHD criteria.

Again, uh, the idea is it's a little boy who is bouncing off the walls.

So the little girl is just sitting there and daydreaming, uh, she is

much less likely to be identified.

So when girls are identified, they're much more likely to have much more

pronounced and significant pattern of issues than a boy, because it

takes a stronger difference for a girl to be seen as neurodivergent.

And obviously that's just one characteristic.

So for a very long time, black and brown children would be diagnosed more likely

with, uh, um, oppositional defiant disorder versus autism, for example.

So, uh, there, there is also, it's not only the boy, it's usually a white boy.

In that stereotype, in their social economic class, access to diagnosis.

And so that is another issue why some people just kind of stumble around

their life until they're later in, uh, later on and then figure something out.

And, uh, so everything, language differences, if it's a new

immigrant group, there's all kinds of intersectionalities.

And then obviously, people who come from, not just Gen X,

but even older millennials.

And even in some younger generations, people could be missed, but in

older generations, which are, you know, gen X and older millennials

that are still a majority of the workplace, there was very little

access to diagnosis and understanding.

So some of the most pronounced stereotypical cases might have been

diagnosed, but anyone who is a little bit less pronounced, a little bit less

typically presenting someone with high intelligence, uh, very likely had been

missed in those generations as well.

so one of the reasons why I asked that question, um, is that there a

lot of neurodiverse people in the workplace that may not know this,

you know, and it's about actually understanding this and the way that it

might affect and the way that people work and experience joy, you know?

And as part of the previous question's, like how can

organizations ensure that they can help work to people's strengths?

So understanding Neurodiversity help with that towards that.

Absolutely.

Whether you had the privilege of a diagnosis or not.

If organizations just become more flexible, then it would also

help people who just, you know, still trying to figure it out.

Now in the Canary Code you talk about Louis Capaldi at Glastonbury,

uh, and he has Tourette's syndrome and, and his at, at, on his set,

his voice faltered and he struggled with the word someone you love.

And the audience joined in with no mockery, impatience.

I a bit emotional about that, um, because I've been to Glastonbury

and I know it's an amazing place.

Um, so what would it be like to replicate the Glastonbury

effect in our workplace?

You know, that that story really resonated with me, which is why

I, that's actually was one of the things I was keeping secret so far.

I, I divulged a lot of things from the book, but not that,

uh, dedication because it is, uh, kind of an emotional thing.

And it is something that we would love in our workplaces, right?

Just people be kind and understanding and just not cruel.

And unfortunately many of the workplaces tend to be pretty

toxic and the opposite of it.

So I do talk about creating organizational structures and

cultures that would allow people to.

one thing, not be excessively competitive for no good reason.

Many of our organizations are cutthroat for no good reason,

because of a mistaken belief that competing with our coworkers makes

us more competitive, as in our, as an organization that's a mistake.

So if, for example, we remove this unnecessary cutthroatness from our

organizations, that's one factor.

And um, then, uh, we could also think about organizations

as more trauma informed.

Because people come from all kinds of different situations and we're so quick

to just judge and jump to conclusion and say, well, this person is not

doing something I want them to do, bad.

So train ourselves to start thinking about, okay, so

what actually is happening?

Maybe this person does not need being yelled at.

Maybe they just need to be, uh, calmed down and help for five

minutes and then they're going to get over whatever is happening.

So, uh, teaching organizations to be trauma informed.

But I do have a pretty lengthy chapter on that topic as, so

there's, there's more to it.

So it really sounds like we've got to read these books,

so it's coming out in May.

You say

Yes, hopefully it was supposed to come out earlier, but you

know, printers, things happen.

okay, well, I'm looking forward to reading more about this.

And one of the things in the book, which I found amazing, is that autistic

people with college degrees have an 80 to 85% unemployment rate in the US.

Is that right?

It does not make any sense.

Uh, but that has been a finding that, uh, has been shown in

many different environments.

Some of it likely includes underemployment, which is when

people are working way below their educational level, so their waiting

tables and they have a college degree.

But it's pretty striking and it is a little bit better in other countries

of the world, like 30 to 40 ish percent in Germany and Australia,

so other countries do better.

But it's still pretty significant.

So a lot of that has to do with, um, access and success

barriers of getting jobs.

Because, you know, interview.

Whether or not you actually have to bid a social butterfly and be

able to brag to do your actual job, that's a barrier for everybody.

And then you get into the workplace, and then again, your manager only

knows how to manage in one way.

And, uh, uh, your coworkers just, you know, make fun of

you because you're different.

So all the many different factors combine to create

that unemployment trait.

But all those things are really bad for everybody.

Having valid selection is good for everybody.

Having bullying free work environment is good for everybody.

So addressing those unemployment traits really would create

better workplaces for everyone.

And do you know any organizations that actually have, uh, decent diversity?

Well, I talk about couple of organizations in my book and, um, there

are some large companies that have, uh, neurodiversity hiring programs.

So, Dell, Deloitte, Microsoft, EY, there's many organizations

that have special programs.

But what I really like is organizations that go beyond special programs and

just create their entire structure that's neurodiversity welcoming.

So I talk about Ultranauts, uh, which is, um, a tech company

that was specifically designed to be, neuro inclusive, and

they were about 85% autistic on all levels of the organization.

And they just designed the organization to be fair, trauma-informed,

uh, flexible, and that.

Help them to be successful and to be, again, majority neurodivergent.

And they're just diverse in every way you can think of.

And, uh, then there are other organizations like Lemon Tree, which

is an Indian hotel chain, uh, which hires, again, all kinds of people

who are marginalized in society.

They started with actually hiring, um, deaf people and hard of hearing.

And then they expanded it to people who survived, um, acid attacks and,

you know, all kinds of people who really are rejected by society.

And they, they hire artistic people and they have an amazing, uh, program for

people with Down Syndrome where they also create jobs around their strengths.

Because there are some things that they can do very well.

So they take specific functions, whether it's uh, setting tables

or working in the coffee shop, and design them in a way that people with

Down Syndrome thrive on those jobs.

So those organizations, I'm just really, really impressed on because

they go a little bit, well, quite a bit further than just, okay, there's

special program, we're going to hire autistic programmers, and that's that.

Which is, I appreciate that.

It help people.

I just want to see more.

That's awesome.

So a organization that really wants to become neuro inclusive,

what would you say would be the, like one of the first steps, or

what's the first thing to consider?

Uh, participation is the first principle in my model.

Ask people what they need.

And ask people how to design work around them, rather than

trying to design for them.

So a lot of traditional design thinking is like, I'm going to empathize with

you and I'm going to design for you, but there's limits to how much you can

understand other person's experience.

It makes a lot more sense to actually ask the person.

So participation is the first thing.

And then I talk about the role of transparency, uh, which also would

have neurodivergent people and people who come from different cultures,

people who are first generation, uh, college graduates and don't know some

of the ins and outs that otherwise their parents could have taught them.

And this organizational justice is another principle.

But, designing organizations around those principles, like valid selection,

valid decision making, not just, well, I like your face, or you're similar

to me, which we know happens a lot.

But using valid instruments for selection and promotion is

something that will support justice and inclusion at the same time.

Well I think, I think you may just have, have talked about this, but what are

your three tips for a happy workplace?

Okay.

Can I do four?

Do four?

Yes.

Do

Okay, well that's because, um, I talk about belonging and specifically

holistic belonging, and it is supported by four aspects of holistic inclusion.

Uh, the first one is social inclusion, and that is not just inviting everyone

to the same party, but understanding that some people need a party and

other people prefer one-on-one conversation in a quiet corner.

And creating our social life that allows people to connect in ways that

work for them, rather than forcing someone into models of connection that

may not necessarily align with them.

So flexible social environments and different ways of connecting.

Uh, the second one is cognitive inclusion.

Uh, how you schedule your work, how you receive information, how you learn.

Uh, we're all different, so understanding those differences

will make for happier, more fulfilled workforce because

we'll be able to work with our strengths, our cognitive strength.

So the third one is emotional inclusion, because again, many

organization cells don't bring your feelings to work and or always smile.

Or why are you smiling so much?

You look weird, right?

We, we hear all of that.

So stop being judgy and just label people, uh, with all those things that,

you know what I said and worse, just because their facial expression is

something that you didn't grow up with.

It doesn't make any sense.

We need to appreciate people for variety of emotional

expression, uh, that we have.

We don't need, uh, you know, those limitations of you can only be a

company person in one way and you have to smile four times a day,

but not five or whatever it is.

And, you know, and you should never cry.

Like crying is natural.

It's, it happens.

Yes, absolutely.

And the last one is physical sensory inclusion.

Because many workplaces can be pretty physically torturous for

some people, again unnecessarily.

So give people more flexibility.

Don't stick everyone in a huge bullpen or a huge open office, uh, where

people can't be productive anyway.

Let people work in from home.

Let them, uh, use different ways that make them physically comfortable,

which is anything from, uh, temperature to allowing some people block out

the noise with headphones and other people listen to their little music.

It's not hurting anybody.

So just allow more flexibility in, um, acknowledging that we're

also very different physically and we have very different

sensory responses to the world.

absolutely.

Very good.

Very good.

Okay, so check out, uh, Ludmila's book, the Canary Code.

It's, uh, it is a really great, really great book.

And thank you Ludmilla.

So good to talk to you.

Thank you, Henry, and thank you, Mo.

It's just been fantastic talking to you.

I think what Ludmila has done is really spot, um, put the spotlight

on the importance of inclusion.

You know, and there's so much more work that needs to be done to ensure a truly

inclusive workspace world, you know.

In fact, beyond the workspace, beyond it's the world, So, yeah, there was

lots and lots of great things in there.

I mean, even just talking about, um, being emotionally inclusive, And just

making sure, um, her last point about the physical sensory inclusion as well.

So all of these different things about inclusion.

So the main thing for me was about just being inclusive in all different ways,

asking people what they need in order for them to be able to be comfortable.

Yes.

And I love the, the, I love the, the, the title of the Canary Code because,

you know, it's based on, uh, canaries in the coal mines where, you know,

uh, where they were able to, uh, see the, uh, poison when, when it came.

And that, that idea that because of the neurodivergent, people

will see, will see the, uh the toxicity before it comes.

Yes.

It's fascinating.

It really is.

I was just was talking about this and it's almost like they, they sense

it first, so they're there, then there's a pause before it gets to us.

So there's value there, you know, and we need to value everyone.

No, that's awesome.

I can't wait to read the book.

Indeed.

And the, the book has in it, also in the appendix it has, in how to enable

neurodiversity in meetings, how to enable neurodiversity in hiring.

You know, it's, it's, yeah, it is, it is a very good book.

Right.

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