Balancing ministry and raising a family both have their challenges and their mountaintops.

But how can we make sure that we as parents are not just dragging our kids along into our ministry life, but that both our family and our ministry are in sync?

Today on worship leader Pod, I had an amazing conversation with Caleb Culver from radiant church on the importance of being in the presence of God, our priestly role as a worship leader and what family on mission looks like.

So open your heart and prepare for God to meet you wherever you are.

Come on, let's get into it.

All right.

Hello and welcome to worship leader Pod.

Let's get right into our conversation today.

Today I am really excited to dive into this episode with our guest, Caleb Culver.

Welcome to the pod, Caleb.

Yay.

Yay, yay.

I'm so glad you are here.

Yeah.

So glad to be here.

It's gonna be fun.

Yes, it is gonna be fun.

And if you do not know who Caleb Culver is, you are in for a treat.

Caleb Culver is full.

He's a man of God.

He's an awesome man of God.

He's a husband, he's a dad.

But his revelation and his devotion is so tangible to the Lord.

Like, you can feel his love, his purity for the Lord.

And I just like that he needed to be on this pod.

And so Caleb is the senior worship pastor at radian church.

Him and his beautiful wife Rachel also lead.

He.

She also leads a side with him there.

And they have two beautiful kids and they are just advancing the kingdom of God and their church.

And I just absolutely love watching their prayer live channels and watching their Sundays and their midweek services.

Like, they just do such an excellent job at stewarding the presence of God.

They are a very presence driven place, and I am here for that.

And so they both are.

Rachel and Caleb, they are also amazing songwriters.

I feel like I looked the other day and I was like, they have a lot of songs, but they write songs for their body, their corporate body and for, obviously, the world.

And it's amazing.

The language that they put to give the body and give people to worship God is just absolutely amazing.

And so one song that you may know if you're listening to this, that Caleb co wrote is reckless love.

And him and Corey wrote that.

And of course, that has been like a banger for so long.

But beyond it just being a popular song, I think the theology and even the depth of God's love is so evident in the song.

And so we'll talk a little bit about that, too, later.

I'm excited to dive into that, but I wanted to kind of give a preface before we dive into our conversation how I met Caleb.

I remember going to the Arise and shine conference in 2018.

I just had my.

My youngest at the time.

She was, like, seven months old, but I was like, I don't care.

I will leave all the milk.

I am leaving.

I am hungry for the more of God.

I'm hungry to grow in my gift.

I'm hungry for more.

So I literally drove out both days and was there, and it was absolutely amazing.

I mean, the worship night that kicked off, I think, on that Sunday was, like, Corey and Amanda and Stephanie, and you had the whole crew, and you were playing keys, and it was just absolutely amazing.

I remember going to a couple of the breakouts I went to.

I think I went to three total.

I think maybe four because it breaks out in two days.

But two of them that went to one was the songwriting one that you did with Corey, Amanda, and Stephanie, I think.

And then another one was discipleship and worship.

And that wrecked me a bit.

I'm not gonna lie.

It was good.

It was like, oh, oh, you need to do an altar call right now, I feel.

But I.

And I say that because as you were talking about your devotion to the Lord in me, I was like, oh, I got to get lower.

I got to get lower.

And what serving, you know, your worship team and serving the body and serving God, what it looks like and what it stems out of, the heart of worship, which is Jesus.

And really, that is the whole goal and idea and the platform of this podcast is to, like, bring conversations that pull worship leaders and worshipers back to the heart of worship over and over again because I think we continually need that conversation to happen to pull us back to that.

But you were talking, and I think you were weeping at one point because you were so you said, my love for him is too deep.

Like, I'm talking about it, but this isn't even fair because this doesn't even, like, compare to what who he is.

Like, I can't even express as much.

Anyway, so I was, like, kind of wrecked by that.

And I left that conference going, I got to get what he has.

I don't know what he has.

I don't know what juice he's got, but I got to get it.

I need that holy ghost juice.

And so I reached out to you maybe a couple months later.

I was like, you've got to come to our church, and you got to just say, speak and pour into our team.

And so you came, you did an amazing job.

You float in the prophetic, like, it was just, like, absolutely amazing.

And I just knew from that point on that, like, I'm gonna just, I'm gonna throw myself in environments and places where I'm with people who are passionately in love with God and have a heart for him.

And so when I started this podcast, I was like, okay, first of all, who is even gonna want to come talk to my, you know, come talk to me during this podcast?

Starting anything new is weird, okay?

It's just, it's scary.

It's a lot.

You know, the enemy is just very, very active when you are vulnerable, especially if you go into a new space or a new anything.

And so I just felt that, like, fear and just, like, worry.

And I try to quit and back out of it many times.

My husband's like, nope, we're in it.

And so my husband asked me and encouraged me.

He said, you invite who you would want to grow, like, grow from or, like, get insight from or someone that you would love to sit at the table and talk to.

And he's like, don't even just look at the people.

Like, just that you see.

Think higher.

And so I was like, okay.

I'm thinking of people, and I'm thinking of all the.

I'm thinking, like, okay, John Thurlow would be cool, all these people, and not just for cool, but, like, who, like, really love the Lord.

And Caleb, you're definitely one of those people to say all of that because I knew that from the moment that I heard you speak.

Then I went to rise and shine, and then we came to a different event that you're doing for worship teams.

And I just love, love, love your heart.

Love what you and Pastor Lee and all the staff there at radiant church are doing.

And so, anyways, I'm super, super thankful.

I know that was a long introduction and or just explanation of why you're here, but really excited and honored to have you here.

And I mean that.

Looking forward to the conversation here.

Thanks.

That was, yeah, incredibly kind and.

And honoring.

I'm really glad to be here.

Thanks for your kind words.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, I meant them.

Okay.

So something really cool.

I really want to know more about you a bit.

Like, I know that I know a little bit of your journey just from here and there, but I.

And you have free range here to go wherever you want.

But I.

You have such a heart of worship, and I'm like, okay, how did that start?

Where?

When, when did you get even, like, wrecked by God's love.

When was that?

Like, I want to know those things.

And then how you journeyed, because I know you were at IHOP for a bit, and then you kind of transitioned to traveling with Corey Asbury for a bit, and then you made it to Michigan, which is crazy.

So you're kind of all over the place.

So tell us a little bit about your journey, how you fell in love with Jesus, all the things in between.

I just want to know.

Yeah, yeah.

I grew up a missionary kid and a PK.

Spent the early years of my life in the Congo and, which was called Zaire then.

Now it's called the Congo.

And my parents moved back to upstate New York and planted a church outside of Syracuse, New York.

And I remember having my salvation experience when I was probably 910 years old, was riding my bike.

And I just remember the first time then experiencing the presence of God, knowing God was real and me surrendering my life to him.

And really, though, the next few years of just being a PK, I mean, most of my understanding of who God was came from my parents and their relationship with the Lord.

And then when I was 14 years old, really was the year I say, like, God had that year circled on the calendar of my life.

And he began to just speak to me, encounter to me, minister to me in incredibly profound moments in ways that impacted me and changed my life forever.

It was also right in the middle of the nineties renewal movement that happened.

And my parents church was pretty close to Toronto, so we used to go up to the airport christian fellowship just in the time of renewal and outpouring.

And I just remember experiencing the presence of God, the power of God, the tangibility of his love and his affections for me.

And he just began speaking in that place.

And I remember when I was 14 years old, I was in Toronto, and I was in the back of the room and I heard the Lord say, you're gonna be on that stage one day leading songs that you wrote about the next move, the next revival.

Wow.

And I didn't know really what it meant or why.

I just wept for like an hour.

And so much so that the youth group, they were whispering to each other, like, what's wrong with Caleb?

Like, it is the previous sin, you know, like, because I hadn't seen someone just weep under the presence of the Lord for a long time.

And that season really marked my life.

I knew that I was called to be somebody, to be in the presence of God and to lead other people into the presence of God.

And that music would be a significant part of that.

Even though the Lord spoke kind of about a stage and whatever, I really, back then, I really didn't have any ambition at that time.

This is like a different era.

Like, I didn't even know paid worship pastors.

Like, I didn't even know that was career or anything.

I just knew I wanted to be.

I wanted to be near Jesus.

And music was just clearly an avenue that the Lord had chosen for me, for me to be close to him and to minister to other people.

And so, you know, that's really the beginning of that journey.

And it was cool ten years later that it was actually the same event, the same conference, invited us back when I was with Corey and to lead in the conference.

So ten years later, from that moment when I was there and playing songs that I had led during kind of an outpouring that the Lord was having and watching the room sing and just seeing the Lord fulfill that promise, it was so beautiful.

Not that it's about a stage or influence, but it was like the Lord just saying, hey, this is who you are, and this is.

This is where you're going.

And so, you know, my.

My journey, I feel like I've.

I've, you know, along with my wife, we've followed the cloud by day and fire by night.

Like, some days I wake up and I'm like, man, I feel like my life is like a Simpsons episode.

I, like, started in one place, and I don't even know how it's in this place.

Like, I feel like I never had an ambition to really lead or even a pastor, honestly.

That was a call that the Lord revealed to me as I just followed him.

And so I never thought, you know, I would be a worship pastor, you know, at a megachurch and run a worship school.

And I really just, you know, I knew that my call was to be obedient, to minister to the Lord as the primary calling and then to call other people into that.

And I've been just, you know, I can't.

It's hard to even figure out how I got here, but I'm so incredibly grateful.

God has done so much more than I could have ever even, you know, asked, thought, or imagined, and just.

I'm grateful for that.

And so I think that's.

And I'm grateful for, you know, parents that taught me to love the presence of the Lord.

You know, I remember, you know, my dad would do in that time of that ten to 14 years old, would have do 40 day water fasts, and it was normal for me to come downstairs and see him on his face just crying out for revival and for presence of God and my mom and dad, just men and women of prayer and who love the presence of God and so grateful to have that heritage that stretches back even further than them.

Yeah.

Do you feel like you.

Because at a young age, you know, God basically wrecked you.

He said, this is what you're going to do at a young age.

But when was there a moment, I guess, in your life where you were like, okay, yes, I'm actually gonna do this.

Like, was it, like, when he said it, you just, like, stepped in to do.

Do it, like, right away?

Or was there, like, I say this because God, like, wrecked me?

Very similar around the same age, but, like, I didn't believe him.

I was like, I don't know.

Like, I just didn't see what he saw.

Right.

And so I was like, I just don't know.

I wasn't in that.

I didn't feel that I was called to do what I'm doing.

And so I just.

It took me a minute to kind of, like, move my feet to align with him.

Was there ever a point in your, like, life where you're like, okay, I'm actually.

Yes, this is 100% what I'm gonna do, and then I'm gonna be active in it?

Yeah.

Honestly, no, there really wasn't.

Okay.

I kind of wish there were.

Probably was a result.

Same thing.

Like you just said, there's probably some fear.

Yeah.

That caused me to just not say, okay, this is who I am and this is what I'm gonna go after.

But, like, I just feel like the Lord sovereignly led me.

Every time I hop off and try to something else and try to make it happen on my own, the Lord just slammed those doors in my face so hard, made it so abundantly clear.

Yeah.

So my story.

Yeah, it's been like.

It really has been, you know, following the cloud by day and the fire by night, like, following the voice so good.

Listening to what he has to say.

Daily bread.

And.

And it's been less like, hey, this is the exact path you're going to walk and more of, hey, Caleb, you're getting off and you need to get back off.

I would say I know a lot more now.

I think, obviously, as I've known God and allowed him to know me, he's revealed his perspective over me.

And so you have a lot more clarity on that now.

Like, okay, this is who I am and this is really what I feel to do.

Yeah, I.

But I also like, you know, I just didn't have that moment where I was driven and had a specific vision of who I wanted to be and.

What I wanted to do.

And maybe I should have been my journey and story.

When I hear people talk about that, I feel like I'm jealous and I'm like, man, so cool.

You always knew exactly what you're supposed to do.

I never felt that it was more about, I just know I'm supposed to follow him, follow his voice and that, you know, the indicator would be, if my heart is alive in him and I'm ministering from that place, then that's how I know that I'm walking in the path.

And when there's no peace, when there's joy and when I get into my own strength and striving, that's kind of the red light indicator of like, okay, you're probably getting off, right?

Right, absolutely.

Wait, how old are you?

Do you mind me asking?

I'm 38.

Okay.

So same age.

I feel like in our generation because I also about, like six years old, I encountered the presence of God and I knew it.

So I became aware of his presence very, very early.

But I feel like because we're in the movement of, like, revivals all the time and we're at church every day, like, you're just doing all the things that.

The awareness of the presence of God was almost like, it's impossible if you can't feel the presence of God.

Like, really, like, you're dead somehow because of the way that if you grew up in the church or even if you kind of were introduced to church in that era in the nineties, early eighties or like late eighties, I'm sorry.

I felt like I was very aware of God's presence very early.

And as a worship leader, even just like a mom and a wife and everything else, like, I can sense God's presence much, much sooner than I think.

Like, not to damper other generations, but it feels like a little bit of a lost touch, a little bit.

Like, are we, is everybody aware of what's happening?

I mean, as we lead worship, our job and our role.

And one thing that you've talked about this, I remember you talking about how, like, as a worship leader, our role is we have a priestly role, and there's something about that role where we are inviting people to be aware of him.

But, like, for us at least, because for me, I felt like it wasn't a youth program or a song or anything.

Like, it was just straight up presence all the time.

And even though I was mad as a kid.

I was like, why are we at church all the time?

Like, all the time where every worship thing and all the things, but, like, I'm so thankful for those moments where I was able to actually encounter the presence of God.

And that's why, like, for me as a mom, I'm so, like, hungry and sensitive to, like, okay, how is the presence in my home?

Because I want my kids to be aware of it without me just telling them, you know?

And so I kind of went all over with that, but I was just trying to, like, filter out, like, how we as worship leaders or just as believers can bring more, help people be more aware of the presence of God more, I guess, you know, have you ever, have you ever sensed that with, you know, young, young adults now or even in past?

Like, it's just, I don't know, it's just different?

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, you know, I.

When you spend time with somebody who shared a similar experience or season, you know, you know, when somebody has been there and not, you know, hasn't, like, you talk to young people, like, who didn't, don't remember 911, for example.

Right.

Like, there is ways that we can actually watch how our culture changed and shifted over the next few years after 911 because of severity and the trauma of that moment.

I think in the same way you have a generation that has not experienced any type of regional or global outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

I think Gen Alpha really sits in that category.

And so when you have a whole generation of people who hear the messaging about revival or the presence of God but have not experienced it, then there can be a large disconnect.

It's either going to cause some of them to hunger for it or it's going to feel like there's a dissonance between, like, what I'm hearing and what I've experienced that I am fearful of because we don't want a generation just thinking it's normal to operate outside of the presence of God.

I think this is where we have to follow the command of the sun, like, one generation to the next.

We pass down the statutes and we pass down, you know, what we know, but we impart revelation of who God is.

And I think we have to instill a value for the presence of God, for ministry to him.

And so I am grateful because I do believe it is happening and I'm looking at different churches and even in different nations and watching what God is doing.

But I think we have to be very aware of that sometimes when we're even teaching and talking about these things.

There might be a generation that doesn't know what we're talking about.

And we need to show them, not just tell them.

And I think that's where we're at for a lot of our young people.

And I know that this is, you know, we know the urgency of this generation and we're watching the spirit of death just decimate and look at rising anxiety, depression, suicide.

When you look at any metric, basically the soul as well.

Right?

We're seeing some.

Some staggering numbers with Gen Alpha.

And for us and the older generation, like, hopefully it awakens Amaleki four six, where our hearts are turned toward our kids.

Yeah.

And, you know, because we need the spirit of Elijah.

Like, we need reconciliation, but we need to show them the way and we need to pass down one generation to the next and what the Lord has given us.

And in those nineties and even the two thousands, some of the renewal movements we've experienced, you know, we have the ability to have some wisdom.

Like we can.

We can now say, like, hey, there were.

There was excess, there was mistakes.

Here's where things got off.

And we need to teach that and own that.

But then also at the same time say that this is the genuine move of God that happened and this is what we need to hunger for in this generation.

Yeah, that's really good.

Let's dive into that a little bit more of how do we do that?

How do we give that language or how do we help other generations to do what you're saying?

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I believe something that we talk about a lot at our church.

You know, we try to be a spirit and truth church.

You know, Jesus talking to the woman at the well in John four, you know, the father is looking for worshipers who worship in spirit and in truth.

And I do feel like that we have to hold those two realities in tension because I think on the people that have loved the Holy Spirit, that there has been at times, and I've witnessed it and been a part of it, diminishing of the value of the word of God.

And it gets into swirly, you know, kind of anything goes.

You know, we left, lost the anchor of the word of God.

And, you know, and then the other side, you have a pendulum of, you know, it's.

It's father, son and Holy Bible.

And that's the only trinity we need.

You know, that the person of the Holy Spirit, the work of the Holy Spirit, the ministry of the Holy Spirit, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, manifestations of the Holy Spirit are diminished.

And so to teach this next generation, we have to hold both of those intention and we need to create environments and we need to disciple from the word of God and from the presence of God and to hold those realities in tension, pursue the work and the ministry and the power of the Holy Spirit and to really teach the next generation to love and submit themselves to the word of God and to experience God through the word.

Yeah, and I think there's a real hunger for that.

And, you know, there's a lot of ways you can do that.

You can do it.

Schools and different environments and Sunday morning and with our kids and there's so many, we can even talk about ideas for that.

But I really do feel like we have to return to a spirit and truth expression that is word centered and spirit empowered and so good tension of that and is okay with that, with the wrestle.

And that's.

That's what we owe the next generation, in my opinion.

Yes, absolutely.

That was really good.

I.

Absolutely.

I've been thinking and you said something about, like, we need to love and submit the word.

It's one thing to, like, read it.

Oh, I love that.

But we have to submit to it.

That is, it's dead to sin, dead to our opinions, our suggestions, all that.

It's submitting to his word.

And I'm finding that that is the struggle.

It's the submission to.

I mean, that just like we said, it's the wrestle.

It's just.

It's the flesh versus what we want versus what culture wants versus everything versus.

No, what does God's word say?

And it feels like there's more tension to, like, you kind of touch on this too.

It's like we're bogging down on the word.

Like, we don't really.

I don't really know about that.

We're just gonna throw that part out or.

And it's like, more and more, you know, us growing up, it was like, no, the Bible is a 100.

There was no, there was no budging ever, ever.

So to hear things now, I'm like, my mama would turn around and smack me in the mouth if I said anything about the word of God like that, you know?

And so I'm just feeling that tension of, Lord, help us to love and submit to your word.

It's not just a bunch of rules or a law, but it is freedom.

It is actually an opportunity for us to live in complete freedom in him.

He created us to live in that space.

And when we try to do it on our own, or we try to make our own worldview or what we think is right, then that's where it gets really muggy.

And so I love that you said that, because I'm finding even in myself, I'll be like, okay, I love the word, but I don't want to totally submit to that.

Like, if I'm being honest, my actions don't say I'm submitting to God's word.

And we need to get to that, especially as parents.

As parents, we need to be doing that.

We need to submit to the word so that our kids can also know that it's important.

It's the truth.

I knew the word of God was important and was, like, a standard in my home because my parents lived by that.

And then if you take it a step further, if you are, like, a worship leader or a worship pastor or a musician or you work in.

In the industry and any different industry, like, you are also need to submit to the word and bring people to encounter him by your life.

And so I love that you said that.

Yeah.

Amen.

That's really good.

Sorry, I was just kind of, like, savoring that for a minute.

It was so good.

Okay, so, amen.

That was good.

Tell me, how old were you when you moved to Kansas City for IHOP?

Yeah.

So I was 18 years old.

Okay.

Wow.

I had heard about it again.

It was in this period of 14.

At 14, I knew I was called to minister to the Lord in the presence of God.

Didn't know what it was gonna look like.

Kind of, like, softly was like, I guess I have to go to music college.

And I was like, maybe I have to, like, be a music teacher at a school full time and volunteer.

No idea.

And I heard about this place in Kansas City called IHOP, that 24/7 worship and prayer.

And, you know, I went down, and I.

To be honest, like, I went to the first conference session, and I was kind of, like, weirded out by it.

There were some things that were, like, pretty hot.

I was like, I don't know.

But then I walked into the prayer room, and there's, you know, 2020, 119 18 year olds who are singing the word of God and just prophetically singing from the heart and from the word, and they're weeping, and the presence of God is there.

And I just had never experienced anything like that corporately.

And I was like, this is my place.

These are my people.

And it was like, man, they worship all the time.

All the time.

It's like heaven.

Yeah.

So I moved there when I was 18.

Did four years at the Bible school, and that's where Rachel and I got married.

And so they're almost nine years before we moved to Colorado Springs after that.

So is Rachel from Kansas or.

Where is she from?

Oh, yeah.

We are both from upstate New York, so we met at camp.

Okay, cute.

Camp Shiloh.

Nice.

I mean, it's kind of like our story is, like, almost cliche.

Like, we're, like, together.

Typical.

Smiling and just, like, watching the other person, you know, I love it place.

And that's where we fell in love.

Yeah.

Oh, she went to Australia and went to the leadership school.

Oh, wow.

Hillsong.

And then I went to Ihop, Kansas City.

So we both.

I know.

That was our.

Oh, gosh.

When we were apart, so.

So, yeah.

Glad to be where you are.

Yes.

Okay, so you guys, Matt, you guys got married in Kansas City, too?

We were living in Kansas City, but we got married in New York.

Okay, so you went back home.

Okay.

It wasn't like, we're gonna be here.

Cause this is where we're at.

Okay.

And then you guys got married, and then you guys moved to Colorado, or were you still in.

Oh, yeah, we were in Kansas City until 2012.

Okay.

That's when we moved to new life church in Colorado Springs.

David Perkins and Dan Perkins were part of desperation, and so they invited us out to help lead their internship and school and eventually led the school of worship there at new life and directed the worship department there for a little bit as well.

That's where I met Pastor Lee as well.

My current pastor built relationship, and.

Yeah.

So we were there until 2016, and then we transitioned to radiant church, and we've been here, and it'll be eight years next month.

Wow, that's crazy.

Eight years, huh?

Yep.

Crazy.

Yeah.

You.

I mean, like, I know time like flies, but you think of, like, as you've been going through your timeline, you're like, wow, we did.

There's a lot of.

There's a lot of the time.

And then here you are in Michigan, and eight years just goes, and you guys are thriving and booming and just, like, love what you guys are doing there at radiant.

And then you guys started a ministry school and worship school.

When did you guys start that?

So we started the worship school, right?

Pretty much right away in 2017 when we moved here started, and then 2018, we made officially a ministry school.

And so the worship school actually existed first.

Later, we built the ministry school that now is.

Is the umbrella over it.

So it's all one school, but the school of worship is a program within that, and so, yeah, we've been.

We've been graduating students.

It's an eight month discipleship program, and it's really focusing on discipling musicians and worship leaders in the presence of God, to be leaders in the local church.

And it's been one of the greatest joys of our ministry to be with these young people and still maintain a lot of relationship with people that came through the school.

And it's been such a joy to be able to impart and lead the next generation of worship leaders in our church.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

And you and Rachel, you guys travel, too, like, outside of.

And different seasons of life.

Like, I.

There was a time, particularly when I was traveling with Corey Asbury a lot, you know, where it was a lot kind of balancing between local church life and travel.

I think back on it, there's probably some seasons where I was, like, I probably traveled more than I would have liked, although I love the fruit that that has come out of it.

And so we've really settled and landed, like, you know, we still have younger kids, right?

So we, you know, I put a pretty firm, like.

And Pastor Lee, as well.

Kind of like two ministry trips a month.

Kind of like cap.

Okay.

But not miss more than one weekend a month.

And so now it's fun, too.

Like, we've been able to go as a family.

Yeah.

Go conferences and churches and lead worship or speak.

And now our kids are old enough that sometimes we can go there as a family.

Rachel and I will lead worship together or speak together.

She's an incredible worship leader.

She's an author.

She speaks as well.

And so there's a lot of times their churches might invite both of us.

So it's been fun to be able to bring the family, and that kind of helps, you know, because I don't want to leave them, you know, really try to.

Not more than once a month.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So we travel around and lead worship and teach and speak and do all types of different.

I love that.

Work with worship teams, work with worship leaders and doing different coaching or seminars or things like that.

And that's just been a joy.

Like, we.

Even though sometimes I've regretted and I've traveled long enough that, like, the wonder of travel has worn off.

Like, the actual travel is less enjoyable now.

I just, like, every time I get on the flight, I'm like, I don't want to be here.

Yeah.

But just being able to, like, witness what God's doing all over, you know, the states and to hopefully be able to pour in and bring encouragement, whatever stuff.

Definitely, definitely a great joy.

And so right now, I like the rhythm of, like, once to twice a month there might be a season where kids get older that we travel more.

Obviously, I want the Lord to lead it and him to speak and be called, but I think that's.

That's more of the framework we've tried to put, you know, because we want to be faithful to this house.

Yeah, we want to be faithful.

You know, that can be a whole other conversation with our kids.

We want our kids to not just love Jesus, but to love the church.

And I've just seen so many pks grow up bitter at the church, bitter at God, because, you know, of the toll it took on their parents, because of the way that people treated their parents or just even the way that they felt.

Like, you know, the church was their parents maintained children, and they were the side children.

We really are working hard to try to be intentional as possible with our family, with our kids, that they love us, they love Jesus, love his church, and that's really our goal.

We can make a million mistakes, and we could do things wrong and all that, too.

That's the target.

We're just like 30 years.

We're friends, and you, we're cool, and you love the church and you love Jesus, then that's a win.

I don't care what you do.

I don't care what it looks like.

You know, if those things are in place and you're doing what you love, then I'm happy.

Yeah, that's really good that you say that, because I find that even, you know, different.

There's different things with, like, you.

You travel and you are, like, local and you're a pastor and you're an elder and you do all the things, and then you have people even, like, who are just leading worship or whatever, they're volunteer all things, but you can still get out of balance no matter where you're at.

So there's proof that you have to learn how to be very intentional with just about everything.

You know, the church isn't the savior.

The church isn't even God in itself.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, it's not.

That's not who we.

Who's died for us.

Christ died for the church.

And so I even find, you know, even myself where I've been, like, okay, what am I doing wrong here?

I've put some things out of alignment or, like, my kids are not, you know, needing more time with me, and I'm finding that more and more time than none I need to, like, take a step back, and it's okay to take a step back from things from time to time.

If you have a healthy culture in your church, they will respect that and honor that and kind of open that up for you, you know?

But I wonder, like, as we're kind of talking about parenting, you're a dad, I'm a mom, kind of talk about some things.

But, like, how do we, this might be like, multifaceted question.

You can go wherever, but it's like, how do we parent?

I'm trying to figure out how do we balance our lives as worship leaders, worship pastor, worship, whatever church life with that.

So kind of like what you were already talking about, like, what are some ways that we can be more practic or.

I can't find my words right now.

Intentional.

There we go.

Intentional with making sure that we're balancing our family life and church life.

I heard Bill Johnson say something phenomenal, and he was talking about, you know, the typical statement that always says, you know, it's, it's God first, and it's like, you know, your family, and then it's church, you know, and then it's, and there's like a list of things he said.

But if you love God first, nothing else comes second.

Like, there isn't anything else.

There's not necessarily an order of things.

It's more of like, if you love God, then you're gonna love your family.

You're gonna love it in a way and in an order that is pleasing to him.

And so I know that when I honor God and I'm being intimate with him and I'm spending time with him, then I know that I can love my children really well.

I can say no to the things that don't honor my kids time and my husband's time.

You know, you can kind of align that way.

So let's chat a little bit about that because maybe there's some parents that are worship leaders, worship pastors, or even just moms, stay at home moms, dads, whatever, that need help, like balancing that out.

Yeah.

The best way I heard this, I'm going to frame it and steal what John Tyson talks about.

Kind of launch off of that.

Basically, he said there's a few different ways that you can set up the culture of your family.

You can do basically mission and then family.

And that's where you personally in ministry, you have the mission and you run hard at the mission as hard as you can, and then you, you just fully put that aside and then you try to do family over here.

And that typically leads to that place where children feel they don't really fully know their parents.

They don't really know the purpose.

They're paying the price without really receiving the benefits, and they didn't really ask for that.

Then the second way is that you can do the family as the mission.

And this is where you just kind of say, like, hey, it doesn't really matter about the outside world.

All that matters is this family, and this is the entirety of our mission.

That's good.

So it's like we're actually, like, you know, we're actually going to shun the church and push away the church and just make our family the mission.

And it sounds kind of good and can maybe even look good for a little bit.

But the problem is it's insulated and isolated.

And what happens is if you focus solely on your kids, then they actually become self absorbed, and they think the world revolves around them.

And that's what we're seeing a lot happen right now, is we see a lot of kids that are selfish and prideful and self absorbed because they lived with a family that the family was the entirety of the mission.

Wow.

And so the third option is family on mission.

And that's where you bring your family into the mission that you, you are on, that you and your, you know, if you're married, obviously, that you and your spouse are on.

And so, you know, we try to, with our kids, it's, it's family on mission.

I love that.

And so it's, it's something that, like, you know, what are, where can we let our kids into what's happening?

And they're plugged into the church.

We're discipling them within the church.

And then we're very intentional, the way we talk about the church.

And so we try to really trumpet the benefits, and we really try to absorb some of the pain and downside so that they don't have to pay that price.

And so I'll use an example of how we do this.

I will go on a ministry trip and preach, and so I have to leave for two days.

Well, then we will, as a family, we'll do, we'll go to Chicago for the weekend or do something special just with a family, and we'll say, guess what, kids?

The reason why we could go to Chicago and get the hotel that you love and eat the korean barbecue food you love, amazing time is because the church is so generous that they gave daddy money, and he used this money to bless you all.

See how generous the church is.

Like, this is how amazing the church of God is.

It loves to be generous so that we can love our family and have fun so good and so their hearts are connected to, you know, the church isn't something that's stealing daddy's attention, affections away from me.

It's actually, I'm pulled into the mission.

I get blessing, you know, because of that.

And also, you know, I get to be let in and kind of experience that benefits of it.

And so really trying to do family on mission, and, you know, it's something like, I want my kids to, not in a burdensome way, but for them to feel like they're part of our family vision in Kalamazoo.

Like, we're trying to build a praying and worshiping church in Kalamazoo, Michigan.

And I want them to actually feel like this is what all of us are called to do.

And, you know, not that again.

I'm not going to put a pressure on them to.

I think that's really important, but I'm gonna kind of let them in in a way, like, and now Aaliyah, you know, my daughter loves leading worship, and she's getting piano lessons, and she just wrote a song that I didn't know about by herself.

She's part of, like, this is what we do as a family.

Like, we write, we worship, and she's taking on that family on mission idea.

And so I really think understanding, like, okay, am I off on this at all or mission?

And I need to.

I need to, like, you know, bridge that gap.

Is it my family is mission?

I'm kind of, like, pushing everything else out?

Or is it family on mission where we all feel like doing this together as a family because God's called us to do it?

Absolutely.

I love that.

I mean, that.

That is the picture of the kingdom of God, isn't it?

That's like how God created family, to not be separate, but to have that, you know, the mission and family together.

And that is just such a beautiful, like, that type of stuff.

When I hear that stuff, I'm like, let's go, family.

God is all about family.

And this is why it's not just to, you know, yes, have a tight knit family.

Not to have a good ministry.

It's to, like, expand God's kingdom by having both of them come together and it just overflows.

And so that's a really good analogy.

I like that.

Thank you for being that up.

Family on mission.

I'm.

I'm gonna take that.

I'm gonna lean into that.

Oh, right, right.

On parenting.

Yeah.

Okay.

That's fine.

You forwarded it.

That's what happened.

Yes.

I love that.

That's a good.

I'll leave that.

I'll leave that link.

I'm gonna find that, and I'll link it down below so people can look into that, because that's very, very helpful and something that we need to continue to talk about as the church as well and as believers.

It's so important.

Yeah, it's huge.

Yeah.

And I find that, like, I agree with you.

I feel like when we really, like, basically leave the door open for our kids to be a part of what's going on, like, it's all of us.

It's not just you, you know, dad's not up there doing keys, and mom's not up there just, you know, leading worship, and you're just in kids class.

And it's not just that.

It's like we are a part of the full movement, and it gets them excited about it.

It makes them want to, I mean, little evangelists, basically, they just want to tell everybody about it, especially kids.

They want to talk about everything.

They just don't hold back anything for sure.

And one thing I want to add with that, too.

To do family on mission well, you know, it really requires you to have incredibly intentional moments with your kids outside of the ministry side where you are pouring your head and you're hearing theirs, or else they feel like the church is the only avenue where they get the full you.

Then it really becomes a performance thing where they then go the performance route, and it's like they're going to try to do everything.

Church and excel, to kind of get your attention and affection.

If they're full on your attention and affection, you know, in moments unrelated to ministry, they feel pursued, they feel.

They feel seen, then there's a liberty to do family on mission well, without putting the pressure of performance that a lot of times creates a really unhealthy dynamic with pks.

Yes.

I thank you for adding that.

That is very true, because just like what you said, it's just that they want to feel that 100% and individually, like, I have three kids, so it's a lot.

Okay.

And so to, like, separate everybody all the time, like, hey, dad's gonna take you, a mom's gonna take you and then have the one out.

What do I do with the one?

Well, I make everything as special as I can, but I know for a fact that every time I spend individual time with my kids, it impacts them so, so greatly.

And one thing I was reading the other day, it was like, your kids, like, really love you and want, like, your attention.

Like, to know that I think about, like, when I think about God, like, God, do you see me?

I want to know, you know, I am thankful for God's grace.

So we don't have to strive for that.

We don't have to, you know, do all these fancy tricks for him to look at us.

And in the same response, like, we don't need our kids to get good grades or do all these things to get our attention.

We should just give our kids our attention because they're our kids.

And that's the same way that God looks at us, too.

Like, his eyes, his affection.

Affection for us is always on us because we're his kids.

And it's just such a beautiful reflection.

So when I think about that, how I am perceived in God's eyes, it makes my heart a lot tender to my children, because I want them to know that you don't need to do anything to get mama's love.

Like, I'm here.

Like, we're blood.

We're in it for the, you know, we're in it to the end and then into.

And then after the end, into heaven, you know?

And so that.

That's a really good point.

I'm glad you brought that up.

Attention is the most precious commodity for kids.

It is.

The most valuable thing they can have is attention.

It's what they get.

It's what they look for.

It's what they want.

So much so that they will.

They prefer you angry at them if it means attention.

This is why kids act out.

It's their craving attention, and so they don't hate you.

They are craving attention because they're deficient that they are acting out.

And they would rather you be angry at them, but with them than be absent.

And it's so beautiful, right?

Because you said it perfectly.

It's the father.

I mean, if you look at Genesis one, Genesis two, and into Genesis six, you look at how the Lord relates.

He speaks through blessing, and it's all face to face contact.

And if you read the story of Cain, I mean, it had everything to do with God's face being turned and Cain turning his face away.

Why?

Because a face turned toward you was blessing.

And the aaronic blessing.

And the power of the aaronic blessing is.

All of those phrases are face and attention.

You know, the Lord bless you.

That means to look at you and speak blessing.

Lord keep you.

That's like, watch over you may make his face to shine upon.

You may lift up his countenance.

He may smile and give you peace.

It's literally all face language and the Old Testament word for presence, it means face to face.

It's not like a loosey goosey, just like, oh, we feel goosebumps.

It means to turn our face towards God's face.

And when you do that, his face is always.

It's looking with a smile.

And the sin of Cain, or the fallacy of Cain, is Cain thought when God didn't smile on what he did, that he wasn't smiling at him, and that what he couldn't understand.

And the curse of Cain is to think that when God isn't smiling at something we do, he's not smiling at us, when really, that smile is always unbroken toward us.

He is.

God can be grieved at things that we do that grieve his heart while his smile remains unbroken.

And that's the power of the aaronic blessing.

It doesn't come with a stipulation.

It doesn't say, if you do this and if you're this, then this is how God looks and feels.

It's the power of that blessing.

And that blessing was meant to be passed on from the priests to the fathers and the fathers to their families.

You know, something they would do at Shabbat dinner.

And it's something we do as a family.

We do a Shabbat dinner every Friday night, and we bless our kids and we bless each other.

And in front of, we have guests, and we take a moment, look at their face, and say, we love you.

We're proud of you.

This is why we're passing on the aaronic blessing.

We're saying, this is the smile of the Father in heaven, how he sees us.

And we're passing that on to you to really experience it.

And so the challenge for us in ministry is if our kids are attention starved, then it's probably like we are starved for the attention of our father, and therefore, we're passing on, on anger and frustration and disappointment, you know?

And I just have to be so careful of that, too, because ministry wear me out.

I absorb it, I take it on, and I just, like, you know, I feel sad thinking about the times that instead of my kids wanted my attention, I just wanted to veg or just, you know, be on a fancy football app, because I just had to disconnect.

I was so overwhelmed.

And it's like, no, I have to, like, this attention is so important.

And it's not just that I need to give them attention or else they'll act out.

Me is they need to know that the father is smiling at them and always has their attention.

And as much as I can pass that on, you know, I believe they'll, they'll be able to walk in that same smile.

Yeah, it was a little kind of random.

No, that's, we're talking about attention.

No, that's so good.

I'm thinking of so many things because you said it, basically, it's like a overflow of how you are operating with what you think God is, like, perceiving you as, like, you hear so many times, like, oh, I think God's mad at me or I don't feel, you know, you don't feel God's presence.

So instantly you think, oh, something wrong?

Did I do something bad?

You know, all these things, you know, even Jesus was like, lord, God, my father, like, have you forsaken me?

Like, but he is always smiling on us.

And when you even have that revelation, I think that confidence in my relationship with God has boosted, I think, you know, later on, as I became a little bit more comfortable in leading worship, I had to start remembering that God's smile is upon me from the moment I step on stage to off, regardless of things go wrong, because things will always go wrong, whatever, whatever happens.

His smile is still affectionate.

And so I even personally have had to get off stage, and I felt like the set was awful.

I did these things, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I had to, like, center myself and said, but God is smiling upon me.

He is happy with me.

He's not mad at me and have to, have to, like, really pull that in and that revelation.

And so what?

Your son was really good, because even, like, personally, like, currently, I feel that, like, you know, my middle, he's, he's the only boy.

He's very emotional.

He loves mama.

Okay, he loves, loves mom.

But he acts out, and I know that.

And not in a bad way.

He's just, he gets so angry and doesn't know how to express his, his emotions so much that he'll just run around or, like, scream or start throwing stuff sometimes.

And I'm like, oh, my gosh, what's going on?

And sometimes I think, am I acting like that to God, though?

Because I think I need your attention, God.

I'm going to do all these crazy things.

And he's like, I am already attentive to you.

And sometimes I need that conversation, but I need to give that conversation to my son, too.

Like, I am here, I am present, I am sorry that I am so caught up in x, y, and z, like, to give my son the attention because in the moments where I feel even personal, where I'm like, God, I just feel so alone that literally last week, caleb, I was like, I feel I'm not alone, but I feel alone.

And then I feel alone even in the midst of, like, okay, God, are you, like, here with me?

And so in that I take that out, I think, on my kids, or I feel like I kind of, like, push away.

Just like, where you're saying, like, the family on mission, I'm like, I'm pushing things away, and I'm not really, like, putting things together versus just having a full conversation with all of my kids, my family saying, this is what mommy's feeling, but also this is the truth of God.

And this is, like, who God says about us, and this is the kind of God that he is.

And then to also, like, this is a good opportunity to teach your kids about the love of God as well.

It's like what you're saying.

It's like when you feel so upset, you feel like you're not being hurt or whatever.

God hears you.

God sees you.

And anyway, so I just love that.

So amen.

I amen.

I love that.

That was so good.

Sorry, I just went on tangent.

I've just been.

I've been feeling so much of what you're saying.

I'm like, that makes a lot of sense.

Like, kids acting out and me feeling like this way is because I'm feeling a way towards God when God's like, I'm not treating you like that at all.

And so.

And I need to turn towards my heart to my son and my kids.

Like, hey.

Like, I'm a tentative and I'm here.

And you're right.

Attention is the number one thing that I think we all need as humans.

That's actually part of connection.

That's a part of really why God, you know, created us to be in a relationship, to be attentive to each other.

And so that was a good revelation.

So I love that.

That's right.

That's good.

I love that.

Okay, so we're gonna close here.

I feel like we need a part two.

I really wanna do one with you and Rachel because I feel like Rachel just has.

She's got.

I mean, she's a vocal coach.

She does all the things, but she's, like, gone through a lot.

She wrote a book not that long ago and everything.

Like, I just.

And both of you guys are like a power duo, so I would love to bring you guys both back on and talk about more of this and anything worship related, but I really want, I would love if you would just pray over our listeners today and whatever you feel in your heart.

We talked about a lot of different things, but whatever, like highlights in your spirit, just pray and release a blessing and over anyone that's listening and then we'll entertain here.

Yeah.

And Lord, thank you for this conversation.

And just thank you for being Emmanuel, just being present with us.

And Lord, I just speak a blessing.

Lord, I thank you for your, the light of the countenance of your face, your presence, Lord, that you revealed in your son Jesus Christ, and that the glory of God that is now clearly seen on the face of Jesus Christ.

And Lord, I just ask right now, Lord, for every listener, wherever they're at, in the car, at home, wherever, Lord, I ask that they would feel and experience your smile and your delight.

Lord, I ask where shame has caused their face to turn away, Lord, that you would be the glory and the lifter of their heads, that you would pull their gaze back up to see you.

And Lord, I just ask for encouragement, Lord, for worship leaders and writers that feel discouraged, Lord, I ask that you would bring hope to the hopeless, Lord, I just declare that the desert will rejoice and blossom as a rose.

Lord, I just ask that you bring forth new life, Lord, even from the weary places, Lord, I ask even the bitter waters of Mira, Lord, that you would make them sweet.

It's what you do.

You love to redeem and restore.

And so just bring encouragement, bring strength, Lord, as we continue to walk this journey in Jesus name.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Thank you so, so much.

I feel like, I mean, we could have kept going for like another hour for sure, but for the sake of your time and, but we will do another part because I think there's more in this conversation.

I have a lot of other questions, but thank you so much for your revelation that you shared and just having this conversation with me.

That was a lot of fun.

That was so much fun.

Yeah.

Thanks, Amber.

I just, I love your love for the presence of God and your heart for people.

You've carried that incredibly well.

And so it's just evident through the conversation, so very, very easy to talk to you and even just what you said was encouraging to me.

So thank you.

Awesome.

Yeah.

So, so blessed by that.

Thank you.

So if you're listening to this podcast and you're like, I am just craving for more of God's presence, or I'm trying to find figure out what I want to do next.

I'm going to encourage you to check out radiant church worship ministry school.

I'm sorry, ministry school.

And they have a worship school as well.

I'm going to leave the links in the show notes, but if you want to get plugged in, do some ministry training and encouragement and discipleship and any of that, like, I highly recommend radiant church because they do an amazing job with raising up disciples.

They don't just talk the talk, but they walk it.

And so you'll be really, really blessed by that.

So I'll leave all that info in the notes for you.

But that does conclude our episode for today.

Stay connected with me by subscribing@worshipleaderpod.com I upload new episodes and also give some free content and things like that to help worship leaders and worshipers all around to inspire you in your journey and your passion for the Lord.

So thank you for tuning in.

Worship leader pod.

We outd.