Speaker: 00:00:00

next bit is if you take it apart so I'd watch for that because there's little bits inside

it and then it would be like yeah.

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the set that Dave bought him has got different coloured strings that he can put on and all

of these bits.

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it.

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You've got to take it all apart to put the strings on properly.

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So yeah, that that will be the next thing is like, comes apart.

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Brand new yo-yo every week.

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I love it, I love it.

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Okie dokie, so I've hit the record button already.

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This is dead relaxed.

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So what I would say is just allow yourself pauses.

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It's easier to edit afterwards if there's natural pauses anyway.

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It's not like a radio interview where I've got to keep going and keep the excitement up

and the tone of the podcast is very much more reflective anyway.

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So, you know, it's all good.

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I'll do an intro, but then I'll ask you to intro yourself as well, so that we capture your

brand and personality, which is what this is all about.

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And then we'll roughly stick to what we've already discussed.

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Yeah.

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And then at the end of it, there should be 30 minutes of really good conversation.

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I've got some water because I keep losing my voice, so I might have to take some sips.

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worry, do not worry about that.

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So, all good.

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wonderful.

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Today I'm joined by Katie Cope, is founder of Keppel Leopard Creative, a strategic

business and personal brand.

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hang on a minute.

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Yeah, it's strategic business and personal brand identity for passionate female founders,

isn't it?

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Yeah, okay, right, okay.

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Today I'm joined by Katie Cope, founder of Keppel Leopard Creative, strategic business and

personal brand identities for passionate female founders.

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Welcome to Psychologically Speaking, Katie.

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Hi.

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It is great to have you here.

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Would you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

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Yeah, so as you said, I run a branding agency and the branding agency specializes in brand

identities, brand strategy and design for female entrepreneurs.

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And normally these female entrepreneurs are super ambitious.

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They want global domination.

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They want to create impact.

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They want change.

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And those are the kind of female founders that we work with.

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So we specialize in brand identities because brand identities for female founders

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has to do a lot more than male founders.

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We've got to represent ourselves quite well.

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So the business started in 2019 and I was actually made redundant from my full-time job

whilst I was seven months pregnant.

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So I had like two sensible options.

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We say that it's sensible options.

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The first sensible option was to go and find another job in which ultimately at seven

months pregnant, working in the events industry, that probably wasn't going to happen.

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Or the other sensible idea was I would just crawl into bed and hide and just wait for it

all to blow over.

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And then I had this very third wild card option of maybe start a business and see what

happens.

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And that's how it started.

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So literally on the Monday, I was made redundant by the Friday.

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I'd set up a business offering graphic design.

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And then over the years between sort of newborns homeschooling pandemic.

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anything that can be checked out it it's evolved into the branding agency that is today.

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Wow, what an amazing story.

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And 2019 resonates.

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That was the year that I set up my business as well.

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So we've both went through those early years in the pandemic, lockdown.

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I think our children are similar ages as well.

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Homeschooling.

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of them.

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yeah, homeschooling was horrendous.

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It didn't happen.

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It was one of those where I started very, very keenly with like, we've got a timetable,

we're good to go.

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By the end of the first week, was like, it's just, we're just going to throw everything at

it.

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It's fine.

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If you learn, amazing.

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That's how it went.

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we had an alternative provision definitely we had an alternative provision

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yeah, it was very much alternative.

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Potentially you couldn't say what he learned, but hopefully he's fine now.

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So, we should be all good.

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think we should maybe start here.

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And the idea that you're somebody who looks at a problem or a challenge or world

domination, I love that phrase, with creativity.

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And I'd love to talk about this, especially your dressmaking skills, because this might

sound a bit bizarre, but the first time we met, you'd rocked up to a speaking event in a

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bespoke.

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handmade skirt that I think you'd made what the night before?

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It was the week before it was due in which what was really hilarious is because I've got

ADHD, I have these wonderful ideas months in advance.

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And I knew about this speaking gig, which was doing it for the kids with Frankie.

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She had told me a while back that this was happening.

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But the week before I suddenly went, yeah, let's make a skirt now.

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So that's what I did.

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was just like, I should probably get this done.

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And then I was like, you know what, we'll hold ourselves accountable and tell everybody

that's going to be there.

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By the way, I'm making my own skirt.

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been really excited on the lead up.

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mean you've done something really wonderful there which is to just kind of gave us all a

bit of a sense of anticipation about what we might expect.

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I think we're all just like wow she's going to make her own skirt for the talk.

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yeah, hilariously, like I've never I've never made a skirt before in my life I've never

made one being doing some like YouTube googly I do watch like, you know, I'm sewing being

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things and going it's can't be that hard.

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Can it?

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So, yeah, I am that kind of person that will kind of go.

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Yeah, we can do that.

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So I've done it before where like

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years and years ago my friend had a birthday and I was like I have no idea what to buy

her.

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I was just like you know what I'll knit her a scarf that's amazing we'll knit her a scarf.

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I'd never knitted before in my life but I managed to do it I mean like it was very long

because I didn't know how to finish it but eventually I managed to kind of like put

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something together and make it but I am very much that kind of person where if there's a

problem or something I'm like

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what if we do it this way?

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And I am very much one of those who's like, we'll just try it until there's like,

literally, there's no other way of doing it.

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And they're like, there is a barrier, we cannot move past that barrier.

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And even then, usually, even if there's a barrier there, then I'll be like, we'll just

leave it for a bit, and then we'll go back to it.

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It's absolutely fine.

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So yeah, I have always had that kind of, that thing of like, well, why don't we do it this

way?

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I think I took a photo of you on the stage that day.

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So with your permission, I think I will put that photo into the show notes and also the

blog because I do a sub step blog for this podcast.

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But it was fabulous.

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Absolutely fabulous.

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Well, I loved that.

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I loved meeting you and I loved your talk on the day and you were talking about brands and

we connected again in January, didn't you?

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You'd message me and we were talking about...

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how was interesting that as a brand agency, you were starting to explore your own brand.

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And a really interesting thing that I didn't know about you was your background in

animation.

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Yeah, yeah, so I have an animation degree.

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So I have a background in animation.

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So I went to I went to the same university as Nick Park.

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So all of those Wallace and Gromit fans, I went to the same one.

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My my tutor is Miss Rabbit from Peppa Pig.

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She was my tutor.

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So yes, I grew up in animation.

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So yeah, so and that was sort of like a that was a weird and wonderful thing as well

because

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I ultimately, I went into, so I used to live in Scotland and we did six form school rather

than going to college.

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And it was one of those things where I was like, I actually don't know what I want to do

with my, the rest of my life, because that's what happens is that you hit that time and

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it's like, right, so what are you going to do for the rest of your life?

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I like, I don't know what I'm going to do.

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So I tried going for just kind of general art and sort of like, let's go for your general

art.

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I'm creative.

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We'll see what happens.

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So I went for.

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one of the biggest universities for art in up in Scotland, which was Edinburgh School of

Art.

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And I just wasn't, I'm not that kind of way inclined of thinking kind of creatively

artistically that kind of, that kind of mindset, because I remember one of the questions

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that they asked me, in which I realized that the answer that I gave wasn't the correct

one.

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Was they said, they like looked at my portfolio and they said, right.

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if we stacked chairs and tables up in the corner, how would you start drawing it?

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In which I think what they were looking for was some sort of really artistic, creative

sort of answer.

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But my answer was I'd start from the bottom and work up, which I don't think was exactly.

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was just like, well, we'd start from the bottom and you draw it.

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then and I don't think that's what they were looking for.

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Do think perhaps they were looking for an interpretation?

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Exactly, I'm pretty sure that's what they were doing, but I am not that kind of, I'm not

that way in kind at all to kind of look at it in that way.

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So it then actually got to the stage because through UCAS and things, you have like

certain ways of doing things.

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And if you're going down the art route, there's two different routes.

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There's like route A and route B.

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So I was going down route B and they said like, actually, cause I was getting to the end

of route B and going, I haven't got a university yet.

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They said you can go down route A if you've done route B, you can go down route A and then

I'd looked at the animation degree at the University of Central Lancashire and I'd kind of

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dismissed it because I was like, I don't know anything about animation.

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I have not done animation at all.

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But I liked it.

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I watched lots of cartoons.

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I liked how they made it, how they created it.

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And then I was just like, you know what, why not?

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Why not go for it?

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So I went down.

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had an interview with them, had an interview, showed them my portfolio and everything.

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And it actually, in which it actually became one of my animations, it was between two

school, two universities, because the other thing that I was interested in was acting.

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So I had a choice between going to the University of Central Lancashire or I had a choice

of going to, I think it was York, it was York University or York St.

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John's to do acting.

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and study acting.

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And I remember going, I cannot decide in which my mother's gonna kill me because she

doesn't know this.

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I used a deck of cards to choose how to, between the two of them.

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And the thing was, that I was just like red for, red for you clan because Lancashire and

then black for York St.

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John's.

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And I actually picked up a black card and I went, I don't wanna go.

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So then I chose animation.

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That's how I did my animation degree.

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So yeah, was like an entire story of that as well.

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really sensible kind of way of working out choices, isn't it?

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And sometimes do that with, in work situations with clients where you often say, okay, so

let's choose this one, or you give them something part written and then all of a sudden

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they start red penning it and you're like, so now I really know what you want.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Exactly.

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You give them an and I do that with my clients quite a lot as well is that I give them an

option and see how it sits and they have to go, actually, no.

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And I'm like, that's what I wanted because I knew eventually like, that's actually not

what you want, but I need to give you the option to go, no, I don't like it.

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Exactly.

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Exactly.

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And that's what I do with, with my, with my clients is effectively we're narrowing down

the scope because you in business, you can do anything you want.

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I think that's one of the biggest things that

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I sort of learned as I became an entrepreneur is you can do anything you want.

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You can sell whatever you want.

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can price it, whatever you want.

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But that's really overwhelming because you suddenly go from, especially if you're from

employment where you've been told like, this is how it is.

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This is how you write it.

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This is what it should sound like.

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This is the process that we do.

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There's a lot of restrictions in that to go from that to now you can do everything, but

it's also on your head as well is quite overwhelming.

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So yeah, so with my

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with my work, I help them sort of narrow the focus down a bit and go, well, we kind of do

either or.

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So then it helps sort of get that focus in place and to get that brand in place so that we

know.

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So, yes.

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I love that, I really, really love that.

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I'm really intrigued in the idea of brand identity and women entrepreneurs.

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A lot of my research has focused in on how women represent themselves in online spaces and

certainly how their brands comes out.

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And this idea of in psychology, we talk about an idealized self being different to our

actual self.

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And the reason that there are differences are

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Usually in our roles in life, perhaps we're not quite acting or fulfilling what we think

our potential is.

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So it's interesting how you were weighing up your potential as a younger you and then, and

how you went through that decision and how you've evolved into where you are.

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But I wonder, what's your reflection then sitting, you're having these day-to-day

conversations with women founders.

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How does that conflict between who they really are and what they want to put out?

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How does that show up?

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Yes, I think quite a lot of female entrepreneurs, the biggest thing that they want to do

is they want to show that they're professionals, which every single one I've worked with,

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they are professional in what they do.

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They want to show that they're experts.

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100 % they're all experts in what they do.

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The biggest thing that I find is that societal pressure in the fact that we don't see

female entrepreneurs and we don't see females that run businesses or females that lead

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businesses.

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in those positions because it is very unlikely that we do see them.

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It's still nowadays that you don't see a lot of CEOs that are females, don't see many

females in managerial roles or directorship roles.

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So there's this societal stigma.

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So even though they're trying to get to, I want to be professional, I want to be expert,

it's working it out in a way that shows them that, but also not losing who they are

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because I think quite often,

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women will start changing themselves.

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see it quite often in sort of directorship roles is that they start turning a little bit

more into a man and they start talking like a man and they start, they start doing all of

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these different things, which is more of a male mannerisms in order for them to stand out.

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And a lot of the time, the female entrepreneurs that I work with, they don't want to do

that.

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They want to do it in their own way because they know that eventually at some point there

is going to be an issue in that in terms of,

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they're going to realize that this is not them.

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But then they're kind of a bit too far into it to change the way that they are.

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They can't just kind of slowly sort of go out of it.

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It's kind of like we've been watching the traitors over the last few weeks.

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Well, who hasn't exactly?

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And it's kind of like one of the traitors, Charlotte, she started with a Welsh accent and

then you could slowly hear it sort of kind of.

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fading out as it went along because it's just like you cannot keep this Welsh accent up

and it's that same kind of feeling in in terms of women feel like we're putting something

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on and I think that's also where it kind of comes in where they suddenly start feeling

very overwhelmed they start feeling like I'm not good enough at what I do they get all of

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that kind of anxiety whereas for how I do my branding and things is that we're actually

looking at the things that they're really really good at and we're pulling that out

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and we're doing it really naturally.

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So they're not making anything up.

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So if somebody says that's fake, that you're making it up, they kind of go, well, it's not

because they know that it definitely isn't because that's the work that we've done.

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So they can stand on their own two feet and they can put themselves out there as

themselves, but they're confident about it.

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And they know that a hundred percent it's true.

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And that's what ultimately we do.

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There is so much to unpack in what you've just said there.

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I mean, the thing that comes to mind as a psychologist here is that idea of what we're

calling a feminist sensibility.

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And this idea that women self-help is definitely focused towards women more than it is

men.

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So how to be more of this in the boardroom, how to be more of this professional woman.

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And what we've seen over the years, and there's quite a few psychologists who've spoken

and written about this, is this highly individualized ideal self and this projection of a

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woman having to work on themselves and be better.

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And we see that this is happening at the exclusion of being just ourselves and being

social and all of the others.

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Yeah, definitely.

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And I see it a lot as well, because I do like, there is a lot of things, because obviously

when it comes through your socials and things, it's targeted at you.

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And a lot of the stuff is targeted towards women in terms of female entrepreneurship.

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How you should be a leader is aimed at women.

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How you should beat imposter syndrome.

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Again, it's not, it's all aimed at women.

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Nothing is very rarely aimed at men.

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And I've noticed that.

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a lot in terms of articles.

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It's all to do with women having to improve themselves or change themselves or really be

aware of who they are and their surroundings and what they're doing rather than sort of

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go, well, hang on a minute.

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If this is what's happening, why can't we change the room?

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That's probably the better way is like, why don't we make it more, more inclusive and more

that way?

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Yeah.

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to the heart of the research around imposter and it being a phenomenon that it is

contextual and it's about the spaces that we are in and put in.

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I think there's something really interesting though that's happening in these online

spaces.

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So like you say, initially, I see this as a journey of entrepreneurship that women in

particular are going through where initially there's this desire to be very professional,

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to not get caught out.

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Mmm.

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and to be able to prove their worth and their social standing.

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And then something interesting happens.

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There's this confidence thing that might happen to some women where they become very

comfortable and confident and perhaps maybe some guard is let down and we see more of who

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they are.

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There's also a different trajectory that I'm seeing a lot more of on LinkedIn.

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And this does tend to be coming through from women who, I suppose, where inequity shows up

more.

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So where things aren't easy.

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So where, for example, there's ADHD or there's childcare challenges, et cetera, where

people use those online spaces almost as a detox and they're using it to post and say,

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Right, I'm going to forget this facade of being perfect and being professional.

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You're getting me warts and all because this is who I am.

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There's something there, isn't there, about the fact that women have to manage all of

these different social identities in different spaces and just how exhausted that feels

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actually.

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Yeah, it is.

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And I think it is really exhausting when you think about it in terms of the different

places and stuff.

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Because I used to, when I worked, when I was in full time employment, I worked in

corporate.

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And I was talking to somebody the other day about corporate.

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And she didn't realize that when you write emails, there's a certain underlying thing that

when you write emails, I was like, did you not know about the regards, kind regards and

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many thanks.

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And she's just like, what do you mean?

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I was just like, right.

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Well, when you write kindest regards, it probably means that you've done something wrong

and you're trying to get somebody to help you out.

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Regards is I'm not happy with you, which is why I haven't put kind regards.

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Regards is I'm not happy.

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Many thanks is because you want somebody to do something, but you haven't actually asked

them yet.

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This is your FYI to them.

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So you go many thanks because now you've kind of pretty much passed the buck on them.

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So yeah, so because I used to work in corporate and I used to write a lot of emails

because I was in admin.

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these are the kind of things that would happen and you would notice and you could tell

from somebody's tone.

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Especially when somebody goes, as I said in a previous email, it's like, so yeah.

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So there's all these different kinds of societal sort of ways of speaking, ways of

communicating and things.

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And for females as well, they've got to learn all of these different ways.

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I was talking to somebody the other day because I went to a networking event and she said

that she went to pretty much an

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a male dominated industry event.

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But that's where all her clients were.

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Her clients are males pretty much.

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And she said she felt so uncomfortable being there because they all knew each other and

they all talk the same.

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They all have the same jargon and she just wasn't, she just couldn't fit in anyway.

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It wasn't like she could kind of slot in and sort of go, hi, how are you?

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But men don't pick up on that.

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Men just will just walk up.

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And it was something that I noticed at a networking event and it was a mixed networking

event.

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is that the women very much will stand there, they will, how they strike up a conversation

is usually about the weather, is normally a big thing in Manchester is, look at the

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weather, it's snowing.

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It's raining, exactly, it's raining, snowing, any kind of weather related incident, that,

Pennine related, either that or they will talk about the queue for a cup of tea, that's

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normally quite, you'd meet people in there.

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or the queue for the bathroom, because for women, super long.

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So normally there's a conversation about the bathroom and that's how they start talking.

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And they only talk about business when they are invited to talk about business.

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Whereas men on the other hand, will just quite happily go up to people, go, Hey, what's

your name practicality?

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So what business do you do?

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Let's switch cards if they think it's amicable and they can help each other.

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And then they move on.

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There's none of this sort of

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standing around and sort of waiting for the conversation to end to move on and it was

really interesting watching how women and men sort of interact in these different circles

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and it's all to do with the fact that women can feel it, they can feel the emotions, they

can feel how the difference is and I think that's because we've learnt it, we've learnt to

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sort of read the room and men don't really seem to need to massively notice especially if

they've got a focus and they're like well I need to go network and I need to go and swap

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cards and stuff.

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just go off and do it, whereas women are like, we're a bit more hesitant and we need to

read the room first, so...

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if there are a couple of things psychologically going on there.

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obviously, potentially individuals who enter a room, look at the social cues and think,

will follow that social cue and fit into the norm.

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There are people who enter the social space and they are not the norm and then feel like

an outsider and in psychology, that social identity, that angry park rooms.

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out group, can feel very pronounced to the person who's in the out group, whereas it might

not feel that pronounced to the person in the in group.

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And, you know, perhaps there's something there which is that it's not all men.

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It's about, you know, how comfortable and how social conditioning has made us feel in

those situations.

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But certainly I had a little chuckle there because I was chatting to another Doing It For

The Kids member last week, Laura Howard.

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And we were both talking about networking events.

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think Laura goes to a lot more than I do.

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I do self-select not to.

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And mostly because in Derbyshire, the ones that I have gone to, people just come up and

try and sell to me.

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And I want to get there to know people, not to know their product.

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And that for me tends to be a bit of a self-selection thing, which is quite interesting,

which is why.

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I find brands so interesting because brands seems to be like that fusion between the

person and the product.

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So given everything we're saying there about, you know, potential barriers, challenges,

feminism, stereotypes, what kind of advice are you giving clients around personal branding

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for women founders?

327

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So the biggest thing that I say to people is never, never make it up because you will get

found out eventually never ever have to make it up.

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quite often, especially when I work with clients, we find out stuff about them that they

probably would never think of sort of bringing up and sort of saying, this is me.

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And it's just like, well, it connects with what you're trying to do.

330

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And the whole point of a brand is it's the human connection.

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It's the human connection between your business and the person that you're trying to

engage or you're trying to sell to.

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all big businesses do it because they know that's how it works is that we, as much as we'd

love to say that we buy with critical thinking, we go and look at reviews and stuff, we do

333

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all of these things, we don't, we buy with emotions.

334

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This is why most people come out of Ikea with lots of stuff that they didn't need because

Ikea are very, very good at it.

335

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And that's exactly.

336

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So I worked out now that the only way that I can stop myself from buying things from Ikea

is if you go in the back way.

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And you just go straight.

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That's the only way you start walking around.

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Then it starts working again.

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so it's all to do with emotional connection and the fever founders, we're really, really

good at emotional connection.

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That's what we're really good at.

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So it's looking at those kinds of things and understanding what their, their audiences and

saying like, well, what does your audience want?

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and quite often I talk to my clients because they hate most clients hate sort of looking

and going, I want to niche down into a little group because it

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Ultimately on the grand scheme of things, it doesn't make sense.

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It's like, I'm going to focus on this small, tiny group of people instead of the entire

world.

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Why am I not doing that?

347

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But it works really, really well.

348

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And one of the things that we talk about is psychographics.

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So what makes them take action?

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What makes them go and Google?

351

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What makes them sit up in the middle of the night and scribble something on a piece of

paper?

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Those are the bits that we really, really focus on when we're looking at our clientele and

understanding what they're like.

353

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I also talked to them about sort of how are you going to present yourself?

354

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How are you sounding?

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How, one of the questions that always, when I do my strategy calls, always, always starts

people going, I've never thought of it this way.

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And it stumps them for a good 10 seconds while they're thinking about it is that if I say

to them, if your brand was human, what would they look like?

357

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What would they be wearing?

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How would they be dressed?

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Would they have tattoos?

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Would they have piercings?

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What, what would they look like?

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Because we're trying to create.

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human side of it and it always stumps because I've never thought of it this way and I was

like well this is what a human's coming across so we work on all of these kind of things

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together and that's what the brand is is that that's what we're doing is we're creating a

more human side but as I've said before we're not creating anything that is fake we're not

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doing anything like I want this brand to look like this because it doesn't work especially

when you're a founder it comes from the founder at the end the day the brand comes from

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the founder

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And then it influences and as the business grows, there's still parts of the founder

that's in that business anyway So we do we look at all of those kind of emotional sides of

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things But we make sure that everything is crystal clear.

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It's also things that they want to publicize So there'll be certain things that they go

You know what?

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I don't want to put everything out and I I'm very much of the opinion of dope Everything

out in the world because once it's out there once it's on socials

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Once it's out in the web, you cannot get it back.

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That's the end result.

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Regardless of how much you sort of go or delete that post or whatnot.

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Once it's out there, it's out there.

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So yeah.

376

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Yeah.

377

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And psychologically speaking, that space between intention and action that I'm exploring

at the moment, which is I intend to be this type of person, which is closer to my actual

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self or my idealized self.

379

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And I will need to do these types of things.

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Usually the thing that stops us is that worry of

381

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putting something out there and it being out there forever.

382

00:29:32,865 --> 00:29:43,291

And really, really oddly, I spoke to somebody last week and I can't remember who it was,

but we were talking about podcasts and they said, I'm really actually worried about doing

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podcasts because when I put something out there, it's out there forever.

384

00:29:46,803 --> 00:29:53,487

And I said, you know, I remember vaguely having that thought years ago before I went on my

first podcast.

385

00:29:53,487 --> 00:29:56,867

said, but I don't think about it like that anymore.

386

00:29:56,867 --> 00:30:09,539

I said, that's just, I've moved on with that because it's not a worry, but that control

piece shows up so much in terms of how much we control what we put out versus we don't.

387

00:30:09,539 --> 00:30:11,261

Where are you sitting with that with clients?

388

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How do you move that forward for them?

389

00:30:14,226 --> 00:30:20,788

So for me, I always say to them, especially when like the first thing that we start with

is like, tell me what your business story is.

390

00:30:20,788 --> 00:30:21,588

Tell me what's happened.

391

00:30:21,588 --> 00:30:22,808

Tell me what's in the background.

392

00:30:22,808 --> 00:30:24,809

We write it all out.

393

00:30:25,099 --> 00:30:31,611

and usually we do an exercise, especially from doing workshops to say like, we'll

highlight the bits that you are happy talking about.

394

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And these are the bits that it will still tell your story at the end of the day, but it's

not releasing anything that potentially it might be traumatic.

395

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It might be the fact that you know what?

396

00:30:40,974 --> 00:30:42,722

I'm not ready to.

397

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to say that, I'm not ready to tell people about that.

398

00:30:46,764 --> 00:30:53,568

So they're still telling their story, but it's in a way that for them, they're confident

about it.

399

00:30:53,728 --> 00:31:03,514

Because as you said before, people feel scared about if I put something out there and it's

very much if we put something out there and somebody judges for it, then it feels

400

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horrible.

401

00:31:03,984 --> 00:31:11,084

It's that feeling of like neglect, it's that feeling of just like maybe I've said

something wrong, somebody, all of those kinds of things.

402

00:31:11,084 --> 00:31:20,921

And so this is a kind of way of still telling your story, but being sort of, as you said,

in control of that narrative and being able to say, these are the things that I want to

403

00:31:20,921 --> 00:31:21,211

say.

404

00:31:21,211 --> 00:31:25,264

There is nothing to say that later on down the line.

405

00:31:25,264 --> 00:31:31,158

They release that later, but it allows them to have that sort of thought of I've written

it all down.

406

00:31:31,158 --> 00:31:33,329

This is my entire story.

407

00:31:33,394 --> 00:31:36,812

I can decide if I'm going to let that out.

408

00:31:36,812 --> 00:31:40,246

And I even tell you to clients, you don't have to let it all out.

409

00:31:40,246 --> 00:31:47,412

online so you don't need to put everything out on socials if there's stuff there that

you're like actually I don't want to put out there I was like well maybe you could do it

410

00:31:47,412 --> 00:31:57,630

in your email list because that email list is a little bit more sort of connected you know

everybody that's going to be in there it's a bit more sort of personal you could do it in

411

00:31:57,630 --> 00:32:05,416

workshops so you can release little tiny bits and pieces here and there but not

everybody's gonna know about it and I think in a way that's kind of the same for sort of

412

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if you're you're speaking to people and you're talking to people and you're you're

connecting with people

413

00:32:10,166 --> 00:32:21,189

is that you don't just kind of bound up to somebody and give them your entire life story

on a plate because people go, you're like, wait, do I do that?

414

00:32:22,310 --> 00:32:28,061

Because I think sometimes it depends on the situation, but some people sort of go, that's

a bit too much.

415

00:32:28,061 --> 00:32:37,196

And especially if there's lots of things like that's kind of sort of traumatic or all of

those kinds of things, but people like that might be a bit too much.

416

00:32:37,196 --> 00:32:38,386

So you can kind of release it.

417

00:32:38,386 --> 00:32:46,171

that's kind of what you do with friendships as well is that you kind of, you get to know

each other and then you slowly sort of tell each other a little bit more and then you get

418

00:32:46,171 --> 00:32:46,941

to know each other.

419

00:32:46,941 --> 00:32:49,023

And it's that relationship, which is what branding is.

420

00:32:49,023 --> 00:32:52,534

It's we're creating relationships and we're creating connections.

421

00:32:52,735 --> 00:32:57,487

So you're every time that sort of, give you a little bit, then you give them a little bit

more.

422

00:32:57,487 --> 00:33:00,049

And that's kind of what we try and do with them.

423

00:33:00,049 --> 00:33:06,262

So it's making sure that the female entrepreneurs, they're confident in what they're

saying, because I think

424

00:33:06,262 --> 00:33:14,839

especially as we go back to sort of the societal things, is it's very scary for women to

kind of put themselves out there because they are going to get judged more harshly.

425

00:33:14,839 --> 00:33:18,122

If anything goes wrong, they don't have a second or third chance.

426

00:33:18,122 --> 00:33:21,345

They have one chance and that's kind of it.

427

00:33:21,345 --> 00:33:23,747

They're going to get judged more than often.

428

00:33:23,747 --> 00:33:26,449

They'll probably be told that why are you starting a business?

429

00:33:26,449 --> 00:33:27,550

Can you run a business?

430

00:33:27,550 --> 00:33:28,471

Can you make money?

431

00:33:28,471 --> 00:33:35,000

That there's all these kind of questions about their authority and their professionalism

and their expertise and

432

00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:40,923

their actual ability to actually run a business, that it can be really, really scary just

kind of putting it out there.

433

00:33:40,923 --> 00:33:50,367

So allowing them to be in control of that, it's a bit more, it's easier for them to kind

of put themselves out there, which is what you need to do effectively.

434

00:33:50,367 --> 00:33:58,721

When you're doing your business, this is what makes it different is that you can't just

sell your products and services because everybody has the same products and services.

435

00:33:58,721 --> 00:34:00,542

I think if you went on a...

436

00:34:00,910 --> 00:34:02,850

Facebook group and said, I need a logo.

437

00:34:02,850 --> 00:34:07,350

You will find thousands of people that will suddenly pile in and go, I can do that for

you.

438

00:34:07,350 --> 00:34:09,010

So what's going to make you different?

439

00:34:09,010 --> 00:34:10,090

The difference is the brand.

440

00:34:10,090 --> 00:34:15,070

And there's a difference of how you tell that brand, how you tell your story and what you

actually offer.

441

00:34:15,830 --> 00:34:24,134

so yeah, so we work on that and we work on making sure that they feel confident in doing

that and confident in putting out, putting themselves out there.

442

00:34:24,867 --> 00:34:26,808

listening to what you were saying there.

443

00:34:26,808 --> 00:34:27,729

And I hear you.

444

00:34:27,729 --> 00:34:40,878

think there are parallels in coaching conversations I have with women and men around being

comfortable thinking about what we want to say and what we don't.

445

00:34:40,918 --> 00:34:45,461

And it comes back to me to this idea of boundaries.

446

00:34:45,541 --> 00:34:53,987

And often when we start a business, we come up with a business plan, we'll do some

marketing plans, we're told to do this strategy, that strategy.

447

00:34:54,975 --> 00:35:00,740

I talk to clients about what's your boundary strategy, know, how are you going to manage

boundaries?

448

00:35:00,740 --> 00:35:06,925

And that seems to be a similar thing that you're doing, but with that branding lens on it,

I really like that.

449

00:35:06,925 --> 00:35:12,249

I think we could all do better to sit back and go, how are my boundaries working for me

now?

450

00:35:12,249 --> 00:35:14,801

Where would I like to move them to?

451

00:35:14,801 --> 00:35:21,175

What exercises can I do to push boundaries and push myself out of my comfort zone as well?

452

00:35:21,175 --> 00:35:23,630

I think it's very, very interesting.

453

00:35:23,630 --> 00:35:24,518

you

454

00:35:24,705 --> 00:35:36,242

Some folk are more aware of discrepancies between what, who they are and who they perhaps

perceive their ideal self to be.

455

00:35:36,242 --> 00:35:42,646

So there are lots of people who start a business with an idea of growth being part of that

journey as well.

456

00:35:42,646 --> 00:35:49,910

And it's quite reasonable perhaps that we start off our business journey being one person

and evolve into another one.

457

00:35:49,910 --> 00:35:51,681

So that's quite good.

458

00:35:52,239 --> 00:36:06,039

For people who are listening and are not looking at the video of our conversation, you've

got this magnificent leopard shirt on with a big leopard print copper collar, and you have

459

00:36:06,039 --> 00:36:09,999

got leopard in the title of your creative agency.

460

00:36:10,519 --> 00:36:14,559

Tell me a little bit about the story behind that, as soon as we're talking about stories.

461

00:36:15,299 --> 00:36:20,403

so, so when I started my business, first and foremost thing was my business was called my

name.

462

00:36:20,403 --> 00:36:24,745

It was Katie Cope, because I was just like, we need to get ourselves out there.

463

00:36:25,646 --> 00:36:32,111

After sort of a while, I was only offering sort of graphic design at that point of view.

464

00:36:32,111 --> 00:36:39,406

And I realized that when I was working with particularly female entrepreneurs, the things

that they were saying is that I want to get visible, I want to be seen as a professional,

465

00:36:39,406 --> 00:36:41,196

I want to be seen as an expert.

466

00:36:41,257 --> 00:36:43,118

But graphic design wasn't doing it.

467

00:36:43,118 --> 00:36:48,778

And I was like, well, that's weird because graphic design, there's the visibility side of

things.

468

00:36:48,778 --> 00:36:50,118

Why is this not working?

469

00:36:50,118 --> 00:36:58,078

Which is where it kind of started going down the route of branding and actually

understanding the strategy side of things and actually where all that aside came from.

470

00:36:58,178 --> 00:37:01,418

So then the business actually evolved into brand by Katie.

471

00:37:01,418 --> 00:37:04,898

Again, I was like, says what it does on the tin, really?

472

00:37:04,898 --> 00:37:06,638

That's what I was going for.

473

00:37:06,818 --> 00:37:10,558

So then that sort of evolved into brand by Katie.

474

00:37:11,054 --> 00:37:20,594

Now the reason why it came up with Keppel Epic Creative was sort of, I think it's now like

three years ago, I sort of went, I want the business to be bigger than me.

475

00:37:20,594 --> 00:37:22,514

I want the business to be global.

476

00:37:22,594 --> 00:37:25,934

That's ultimately the way that the business is going is global domination.

477

00:37:25,934 --> 00:37:27,254

I'm for global domination.

478

00:37:27,254 --> 00:37:29,294

I want everybody else to have global domination.

479

00:37:29,774 --> 00:37:30,474

Yeah.

480

00:37:30,814 --> 00:37:39,634

And so I thought ultimately in the name, it can't just be my name because there's going to

be a team and it doesn't feel like it can evolve in that way.

481

00:37:39,694 --> 00:37:48,634

And so ultimately where the name comes from, Keppel is the color that you see on pretty

much every single thing that you see.

482

00:37:48,634 --> 00:37:52,274

And that is a color that has been with me from the beginning.

483

00:37:52,274 --> 00:37:54,654

So I have always had that color in my brand.

484

00:37:54,654 --> 00:38:00,194

So I was just like, well, if I, if I use it all the time, may as well shove it into the

actual name.

485

00:38:01,094 --> 00:38:01,574

Yeah.

486

00:38:01,574 --> 00:38:04,974

It's kind of, it's a teal green.

487

00:38:04,974 --> 00:38:05,694

it's slight.

488

00:38:05,694 --> 00:38:08,994

It's, it's kind of like a more darker shade of teal.

489

00:38:08,994 --> 00:38:09,844

basically.

490

00:38:09,844 --> 00:38:12,955

So it's a tealy kind of greeny colour and that's always been part of it.

491

00:38:12,955 --> 00:38:17,096

It also turns out because I was just like, surely I'm not that very good with this kind of

colour.

492

00:38:17,096 --> 00:38:22,498

Turns out that my bathroom is the same colour, my water bottle is the same colour, my book

is the same colour, my notebook.

493

00:38:22,498 --> 00:38:26,239

So it turns out that I am really attracted to that colour anyway.

494

00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,620

So was like, we may as put it in.

495

00:38:30,340 --> 00:38:36,854

Leopard came from the fact that I don't believe that women should ever have to change

their spots.

496

00:38:36,854 --> 00:38:40,335

like leopards, they should never have to change their spots.

497

00:38:41,136 --> 00:38:45,937

They should be able to present themselves as they are, spots and all.

498

00:38:45,938 --> 00:38:54,761

And also with leopards as well is that leopards aren't the kind of people, the kind of

animals that sort of show themselves up all the time.

499

00:38:54,761 --> 00:38:56,592

They're not presenting themselves all the time.

500

00:38:56,592 --> 00:38:59,183

They're not going out and going, here I am, this is me.

501

00:38:59,183 --> 00:39:06,846

They're normally quite quiet and they normally kind of hide away from everything and they

only kind of come out when A, they need to and B, if they want to.

502

00:39:07,104 --> 00:39:10,547

And that was kind of ultimately what a lot of my clients are.

503

00:39:10,547 --> 00:39:11,457

And that's what I'm like.

504

00:39:11,457 --> 00:39:20,784

I'm not the kind of person that you will see sort of every day on socials, talking about

stuff and chatting about things and all those kinds of stuff.

505

00:39:20,784 --> 00:39:22,595

I am not that kind of person anyway.

506

00:39:22,595 --> 00:39:25,508

And a lot of my clientele aren't like that.

507

00:39:25,508 --> 00:39:29,020

What they are focused on is the drive to help other people.

508

00:39:29,020 --> 00:39:29,771

That's what they want.

509

00:39:29,771 --> 00:39:31,331

They want the impact.

510

00:39:31,832 --> 00:39:34,338

So quite often, especially in some of my...

511

00:39:34,338 --> 00:39:42,140

the groups and communities and stuff that I've started up with is that I'm very clear of

like, if you're showing up every day and having a chat and a chin wag, I'm going to

512

00:39:42,140 --> 00:39:44,011

question it because you're not running your business.

513

00:39:44,011 --> 00:39:46,481

Something's going on and we need to talk about it.

514

00:39:46,481 --> 00:39:52,243

And quite often, like my communities and things that I have, they're very quiet.

515

00:39:52,243 --> 00:39:59,715

And that's a good thing because they're only going to be showing up when they need to and

when they need help and when they need advice, which is where leopards come from.

516

00:39:59,715 --> 00:40:03,767

So it kind of fully encapsulates what, what the business does.

517

00:40:03,767 --> 00:40:06,670

you, I hear you, but I'm also going to challenge you.

518

00:40:06,670 --> 00:40:09,181

Because I really love the analogy.

519

00:40:09,181 --> 00:40:10,752

I love that metaphor.

520

00:40:10,913 --> 00:40:14,435

And there's definitely something in there, isn't there, about...

521

00:40:14,455 --> 00:40:17,227

I love that idea that we don't have to change our spots.

522

00:40:17,227 --> 00:40:25,844

I really, truly, I think that psychological idea of this being authentic really speaks to

me.

523

00:40:25,924 --> 00:40:30,347

I think that challenge comes from a space of...

524

00:40:30,743 --> 00:40:36,807

the judgment that comes from one woman to another about how we show up in online spaces.

525

00:40:36,807 --> 00:40:47,423

And this was what was so curious for me when I did that imposter phenomenon research, was

women just so worried about what other women would think of them, or audacity is a word,

526

00:40:47,423 --> 00:40:47,813

isn't it?

527

00:40:47,813 --> 00:40:53,176

That women either use to judge forward or to hold space.

528

00:40:53,176 --> 00:40:58,903

So I'm going to be audacious, I'm going to hold space for myself, or how dare she, or who

does she think she is?

529

00:40:58,903 --> 00:41:02,345

It's such an interesting, I feel like it's a loaded concept, isn't it?

530

00:41:02,345 --> 00:41:03,475

It's quite interesting.

531

00:41:03,475 --> 00:41:11,289

So my challenge comes from, I'm curious about why we think those things and where that's

come from.

532

00:41:12,163 --> 00:41:19,884

And certainly holding space isn't terrible, but yeah, it's definitely interesting when we

get those judgments and then where's that come from?

533

00:41:19,884 --> 00:41:21,264

Why do we have that belief?

534

00:41:21,264 --> 00:41:23,405

I think it's a societal thing.

535

00:41:23,405 --> 00:41:30,709

It's very much a societal thing where, especially back, really back in the day where women

should be

536

00:41:32,012 --> 00:41:39,658

dressed a certain way, they should present themselves a certain way, when there's class

systems, there's certain ways that you present yourself, how you should look, how you

537

00:41:39,658 --> 00:41:40,568

should feel.

538

00:41:40,568 --> 00:41:47,053

And it was a way of other women sort of making sure that they stayed in line and made sure

that they didn't.

539

00:41:47,053 --> 00:41:49,598

I think effectively it was coming from a place of embarrassment.

540

00:41:49,598 --> 00:41:54,028

It's like, don't embarrass, don't embarrass the family, don't embarrass me, don't

embarrass anybody else.

541

00:41:54,028 --> 00:41:59,002

So women ourselves will, we'll police ourselves.

542

00:41:59,002 --> 00:41:59,682

And I think

543

00:41:59,682 --> 00:42:01,487

That's a big issue is that women will do that.

544

00:42:01,487 --> 00:42:03,221

There's like, shouldn't say that.

545

00:42:03,221 --> 00:42:05,157

You shouldn't say stuff like that.

546

00:42:05,157 --> 00:42:07,542

shouldn't, yeah.

547

00:42:08,055 --> 00:42:10,775

tall poppy syndrome.

548

00:42:10,775 --> 00:42:16,915

And I'm just looking on my bookshelf now because there's a really good episode by Dr.

549

00:42:16,915 --> 00:42:23,415

Grace Lorden on her podcast where she interviews people about the tall poppy syndrome.

550

00:42:23,615 --> 00:42:31,815

It's particularly a phenomenon in cultures where there's a collectiveness in terms of

everybody works in a collective spirit.

551

00:42:31,815 --> 00:42:34,327

So therefore standing above the crowd is not a...

552

00:42:34,327 --> 00:42:34,897

a great thing.

553

00:42:34,897 --> 00:42:37,679

So there's some kind of survival instinct in there.

554

00:42:37,679 --> 00:42:44,454

And if we're talking about animals and, you know, nature, nurture, that kind of stuff,

it's all very interesting, isn't it?

555

00:42:44,454 --> 00:42:48,997

But yeah, fascinating.

556

00:42:48,997 --> 00:42:54,701

Talking about, I suppose, who we are and where we come from.

557

00:42:54,701 --> 00:43:00,285

Another thing that I just didn't know about you was just how interesting your heritage is.

558

00:43:00,465 --> 00:43:03,027

And when we first met,

559

00:43:03,751 --> 00:43:08,754

I met you at a networking event, we were talking about your speech and your skirt and that

was great.

560

00:43:08,754 --> 00:43:19,715

But it's only because I've got to know you, I now know that you are a Philippine, that

you've spent time in Oman and you also lived in Glasgow.

561

00:43:19,715 --> 00:43:27,370

Do want to just kind of talk to us a little bit about that and how that kind of comes

through in your work and how you approach things?

562

00:43:27,370 --> 00:43:28,381

Yeah, exactly.

563

00:43:28,381 --> 00:43:38,540

So I think when we were talking before saying that I actually sort of in a way realized

that the whole thing about brand identity and identity side of things, it does really come

564

00:43:38,540 --> 00:43:40,521

from right, right at the beginning.

565

00:43:40,521 --> 00:43:42,723

So as you said, I am Filipino.

566

00:43:42,990 --> 00:43:45,506

My parents are Caucasian.

567

00:43:45,506 --> 00:43:53,192

So we always kind of grew up, we knew from the get go that we were adopted Mema System.

568

00:43:53,192 --> 00:43:54,773

We knew that we were adopted.

569

00:43:55,468 --> 00:44:04,646

And we've always had that thing of my parents have always said that potentially people are

going to look at us differently because our family dynamic is different.

570

00:44:04,646 --> 00:44:07,318

So we've kind of always grown up and known about it.

571

00:44:07,318 --> 00:44:10,631

They have always been super open and honest about adoption.

572

00:44:10,631 --> 00:44:16,535

They've always been very much if you want to go and find out more, we will go back to the

Philippines.

573

00:44:16,535 --> 00:44:17,317

All of those kind of things.

574

00:44:17,317 --> 00:44:20,859

They've been very open and honest about it, which I absolutely love.

575

00:44:21,820 --> 00:44:24,802

So I kind of grew up knowing sort of

576

00:44:24,802 --> 00:44:31,807

that it was going to be slightly different dynamic, but we didn't really kind of notice it

in a way.

577

00:44:31,807 --> 00:44:40,197

And it was only when my son started asking sort of why is my skin darker and why do I tan

better than daddy?

578

00:44:40,197 --> 00:44:41,572

Because daddy's not.

579

00:44:41,574 --> 00:44:44,235

Daddy's a Mancunian, so he's paler than pill.

580

00:44:45,776 --> 00:44:47,777

No, goes nowhere near.

581

00:44:48,158 --> 00:44:52,271

So he started asking the question when he sort of like, well, where does this come from?

582

00:44:52,271 --> 00:44:54,190

So that's when sort of we started looking at.

583

00:44:54,190 --> 00:44:56,492

culture and that side of things.

584

00:44:56,492 --> 00:45:02,697

But yeah, I've sort of gone around and sort of when I was growing up, I lived in Oman for

three years.

585

00:45:02,697 --> 00:45:04,990

So again, it's a different kind of culture.

586

00:45:04,990 --> 00:45:10,354

And that was interesting as well, because there was it there, there was certain

segregation.

587

00:45:10,354 --> 00:45:12,766

So there was places where Western people could go.

588

00:45:12,766 --> 00:45:22,136

So there was places where Western people could go and go to the beach and bathe and

things, and they could actually properly like wear swimming costumes and stuff.

589

00:45:22,136 --> 00:45:28,809

There were other places that we went as well, where like I remember my mum had to cover

up, so you can't show off your shoulders, you can't show off anything.

590

00:45:28,809 --> 00:45:30,349

And it was respectful.

591

00:45:30,349 --> 00:45:38,072

And I think that was the biggest thing as well that I noticed is just like, just these

kind of like minor changes, how easy it is to just kind of be respectful of other people's

592

00:45:38,072 --> 00:45:43,254

cultures and things without having to change your own kind of views and opinions and

things.

593

00:45:44,615 --> 00:45:45,916

So yeah, so we lived there.

594

00:45:45,916 --> 00:45:50,478

And then we also lived up in, we lived in an hour out from Glasgow.

595

00:45:50,478 --> 00:45:51,874

We lived in Helensburgh.

596

00:45:51,874 --> 00:45:55,135

And again, that was another sort of kind of difference.

597

00:45:55,135 --> 00:45:58,936

that was the longest that we stayed anywhere because we were going through high school.

598

00:45:58,996 --> 00:46:09,629

And my husband finds it really funny because if I go back up to Scotland and I start

talking to people, I will get an inflection of Scottish.

599

00:46:09,629 --> 00:46:14,561

I won't actually have any accent, but I will say certain things that sound Scottish.

600

00:46:14,561 --> 00:46:19,874

And he was having a giggle because we went to one of my friends, really good friends

weddings.

601

00:46:19,874 --> 00:46:23,565

and I'd been speaking to people who were Scottish and had an accent all day.

602

00:46:23,565 --> 00:46:28,554

And we came back on the train, but I was also hearing Mancunians at the same time.

603

00:46:28,554 --> 00:46:34,708

So I was having this weird accent going on where it was like half Scottish, half

Mancunian, and he's going, what are you doing?

604

00:46:34,708 --> 00:46:37,029

And I was like, I don't, I can't help it.

605

00:46:37,029 --> 00:46:41,200

I just need to hear more Mancunians and then the accent will disappear.

606

00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:42,990

But yeah, I will pick up on different accents.

607

00:46:42,990 --> 00:46:49,292

If I go back to Oman, Oman's got very sort of, very English, very posh accent.

608

00:46:49,334 --> 00:46:51,415

I will go into that accent as well.

609

00:46:51,415 --> 00:47:00,060

And I notice it with my friends as well, is that some of them, one of my friends, she

sounds quite American, I will start doing the same thing as her.

610

00:47:00,661 --> 00:47:02,742

And I think it's way of connecting with people.

611

00:47:02,742 --> 00:47:05,083

I definitely know it's a way of connecting with people.

612

00:47:05,083 --> 00:47:15,149

But yeah, I've had this sort of thing of all these different kinds of identities and

learning about them and also my own identity as well, which I think it feeds into what I

613

00:47:15,149 --> 00:47:16,482

do as a...

614

00:47:16,482 --> 00:47:22,606

brand strategist and designer is that I can see all of these kind of identities and how

you put them all together.

615

00:47:22,822 --> 00:47:24,702

yeah.

616

00:47:24,732 --> 00:47:28,046

rooted in your heritage and your cultural background.

617

00:47:28,046 --> 00:47:43,971

So one of the really interesting things about accent imitation is that we know that we are

affected by accents more when we have a fondness for that person or place.

618

00:47:43,971 --> 00:47:49,195

So the very fact that you've gone back to a place which was fond to you, Glasgow, or

you've got...

619

00:47:49,195 --> 00:47:58,301

It sounds like you've got really lovely memories and experiences that you recalling about

visits to beaches in Roanoke and respectful experiences.

620

00:47:58,301 --> 00:48:01,543

So again, you're going to be affected by those.

621

00:48:01,543 --> 00:48:13,791

But also we know that people who are, I suppose, bicultural, you're multicultural if you

like, have this openness to new experiences probably more than.

622

00:48:14,708 --> 00:48:16,168

the general population.

623

00:48:16,168 --> 00:48:20,351

So all of these things would make you more likely to imitate an accent.

624

00:48:20,351 --> 00:48:31,717

But I also wonder psychologically if there's something there with ADHD as well, because we

know with ADHD there's some kind of mirroring, masking and picking up on social norms in

625

00:48:31,717 --> 00:48:32,468

different ways.

626

00:48:32,468 --> 00:48:38,081

So it's just very interesting, but I definitely see how that comes through for you.

627

00:48:38,081 --> 00:48:42,363

Another really interesting thing psychologically is how

628

00:48:42,411 --> 00:48:53,549

We think that people like yourself who've had all of these different experiences with

different cultures can actually, it makes them better problem solvers.

629

00:48:53,549 --> 00:48:57,301

So there's some research which really indicates that you're problem solving.

630

00:48:57,301 --> 00:49:02,815

And when we started this conversation, one of your first examples is, right, so I didn't

know what to do.

631

00:49:02,815 --> 00:49:05,747

So I gave myself a limited choice to narrow this down.

632

00:49:05,747 --> 00:49:09,990

And I just thought, God, you know, you're such a creative problem solver.

633

00:49:09,990 --> 00:49:12,151

And the parallel there.

634

00:49:12,216 --> 00:49:13,126

Yeah.

635

00:49:13,126 --> 00:49:17,073

your approach to creativity for drawing some chairs.

636

00:49:17,073 --> 00:49:21,326

Your creativity just shows up in some really surprising ways doesn't it?

637

00:49:21,326 --> 00:49:23,446

does really, really surprising.

638

00:49:23,446 --> 00:49:26,826

Cause I mean like along with that as well.

639

00:49:27,186 --> 00:49:32,726

Um, so before sort of I started the business and everything is I actually worked in film

and TV.

640

00:49:32,726 --> 00:49:42,646

So I worked in high end TV and normally when you start working in high end TV or you work

in any kind of film industry, you start sort of when you're really young, you come out of

641

00:49:42,646 --> 00:49:45,186

uni and that's when you start and you start as a runner.

642

00:49:45,186 --> 00:49:46,526

That's, that's kind of the norm.

643

00:49:46,526 --> 00:49:48,506

And then you kind of branch way up.

644

00:49:48,506 --> 00:49:49,710

I actually started.

645

00:49:49,710 --> 00:49:54,130

because after my son, I kind of realized I'm not doing anything creative.

646

00:49:54,130 --> 00:49:57,650

So I was in the events industry, events is very much health and safety is very

process-based.

647

00:49:57,650 --> 00:49:59,910

And was like, I'm actually not doing anything creative.

648

00:49:59,950 --> 00:50:11,490

And at that point, I didn't feel that I had good graphic design skills to actually go out

and go out to different design agencies and say, hey, I'm a graphic designer.

649

00:50:11,490 --> 00:50:12,710

Can I come and work for you?

650

00:50:12,710 --> 00:50:14,730

I didn't think that I had those skills yet.

651

00:50:14,730 --> 00:50:17,684

And so my brain went, you know what?

652

00:50:17,684 --> 00:50:20,155

in TV, they fake everything.

653

00:50:20,155 --> 00:50:23,396

So I could fake the graphics and that should be fine.

654

00:50:23,396 --> 00:50:28,559

And that is how very much that I started looking at like, how do I get into TV and film?

655

00:50:28,559 --> 00:50:37,492

And it just so happened that on this one occasion when I was kind of looking at something

that there was a open day at Space Project.

656

00:50:37,492 --> 00:50:44,946

So Space Project in Manchester is where it's all the studios, it's the big TV film studios

where they film Peaky Blinders in there.

657

00:50:44,946 --> 00:50:46,456

They filmed a few other things.

658

00:50:46,456 --> 00:50:54,330

And they're having this massive open day and sort of going, anybody can come, you do not

need to have a degree in film on TV or anything, just come down.

659

00:50:54,631 --> 00:51:02,936

And what we're going to do is we're going to introduce you to all of the different sort of

parts of the crew, because what they were finding is now that you've got sort of Netflix,

660

00:51:02,936 --> 00:51:08,620

Sky, Apple TV and things, is that when you look at their sets, it's like a mini movie set.

661

00:51:08,620 --> 00:51:10,521

So you need to have the crew that's there.

662

00:51:10,521 --> 00:51:12,972

And then we're realizing that we're running out of crew.

663

00:51:13,338 --> 00:51:18,219

because all the crew that they needed was all being taken by all these big different,

these different companies.

664

00:51:18,219 --> 00:51:22,381

So they were trying to recruit more crew into it from anywhere.

665

00:51:22,381 --> 00:51:31,963

So I went down for the weekend and met a production designer and literally just talked to

her and went, here's my portfolio, please have chucked everything at her.

666

00:51:32,563 --> 00:51:42,446

Didn't think anything of it until pretty much three weeks later, she rang and said,

there's a, there's going to be a production of

667

00:51:42,994 --> 00:51:51,354

Free Rain that's filmed over in Cheshire Way and she said do you want to come on as a art

department assistant?

668

00:51:51,354 --> 00:51:52,599

And I went yes.

669

00:51:54,300 --> 00:52:05,296

And I literally like I had two weeks notice and then I went and did that and did the the

Christmas episode and also the Valentine's Day episode as well and that's what I did.

670

00:52:05,296 --> 00:52:10,939

But yeah from that it was just a literal problem solving of I can't really do graphics

because I'm not 100 % qualified in that.

671

00:52:10,939 --> 00:52:12,670

I'll go and fake it for a bit.

672

00:52:13,588 --> 00:52:14,219

I go off.

673

00:52:14,219 --> 00:52:16,301

very, very interesting.

674

00:52:16,301 --> 00:52:21,379

I don't know whether you've had chance to listen, because it only literally came out maybe

a week ago.

675

00:52:21,379 --> 00:52:30,851

I did an episode on body doubling and the psychology behind body doubling with Tessa and

Brie from the University of California, Santa Cruz.

676

00:52:31,012 --> 00:52:41,456

And one of the most interesting things around body doubling was just this idea of stepping

into a role, being able to perform or pretend to perform.

677

00:52:41,456 --> 00:52:42,220

Yeah.

678

00:52:42,220 --> 00:52:47,504

in a place and space to be able to give ourselves that momentum to go forward for

something.

679

00:52:47,504 --> 00:52:49,175

And you've literally just done that there.

680

00:52:49,175 --> 00:52:59,683

What you did was, you you took yourself from a place of thinking, I can't, and made

yourself into a can-do person by just shifting your view on whether you were going to

681

00:52:59,683 --> 00:53:01,714

pretend to be something.

682

00:53:01,814 --> 00:53:04,076

I find that so curious.

683

00:53:04,236 --> 00:53:05,437

And genius.

684

00:53:05,437 --> 00:53:07,859

Curious and genius at the same time.

685

00:53:08,177 --> 00:53:13,516

Yeah, I'm pretty sure like where I think when I told my mother about it, she's just like,

what are you doing?

686

00:53:13,516 --> 00:53:15,300

I was just like, yeah, it should be fine.

687

00:53:15,420 --> 00:53:24,144

I was like, and I mean, like, now I look back at it, I kind of think it was a little

insane because it was a two, it was a two and a half hour commute both ways.

688

00:53:24,144 --> 00:53:26,305

So it was like four hour commute.

689

00:53:26,345 --> 00:53:29,262

I never, I never missed a set call, which I was like,

690

00:53:29,262 --> 00:53:35,205

I'm pretty happy about that, but it two hours out and then I had to get there for seven in

the morning and I wasn't leaving until eight at night.

691

00:53:35,205 --> 00:53:37,967

So that was what the time of day was.

692

00:53:37,967 --> 00:53:42,679

Plus we were driving like across Cheshire as well to get to all these different places.

693

00:53:42,679 --> 00:53:49,152

But it gave me like such a sort of appreciation of like how much you've got to do, how

quickly you've got to do things.

694

00:53:49,453 --> 00:53:59,078

One of the things I say to people like, if I'm kind of like introducing myself is that on

that set, I had to make a belt for a horse in two hours because they had to practice.

695

00:53:59,150 --> 00:54:04,070

having a balloon tied to them and they like, we need to make a belt.

696

00:54:04,070 --> 00:54:10,050

And because I could sew, randomly I could sew, made a belt for a horse and then delivered

it and they got to practice with it.

697

00:54:10,050 --> 00:54:19,410

So it was things like that that were just really weird and really random, but it gave me

like a lot of sort of insight of how the production worked and also how quick things are.

698

00:54:19,410 --> 00:54:28,410

And that creative side as well is because you have to be incredibly creative because a lot

of the things that you see, because when we were doing the Christmas,

699

00:54:29,738 --> 00:54:35,518

episode, you can't use cards that you can't just go into like a card factory or anything

and pick up the cards because it's copyrighted.

700

00:54:35,518 --> 00:54:37,078

You've got to create them all.

701

00:54:37,078 --> 00:54:43,578

So all of the things that you see, it's all been created by the art department and we were

making shed loads of Christmas cards.

702

00:54:43,578 --> 00:54:52,178

And then for the Valentine's Day special one, there's a thing called a hero prop, which is

basically what the one of the main characters has.

703

00:54:52,178 --> 00:54:55,494

But because it was a like a Valentine's Day card.

704

00:54:55,552 --> 00:55:00,327

obviously that's going to get ruined throughout the place and you need to have

consistency.

705

00:55:00,327 --> 00:55:08,765

So we had to make 20 of these cards exactly the same so that they could use them so that

we had the consistency, we had the continuity and things.

706

00:55:08,765 --> 00:55:12,668

So it's all these kinds of things that you suddenly realize like these are all the things

that go into it.

707

00:55:12,668 --> 00:55:14,500

It so interesting.

708

00:55:14,500 --> 00:55:16,141

So, so interesting.

709

00:55:18,236 --> 00:55:31,421

I this chat and I loved hearing from you especially about all the different bits about

your personality and what really goes into your brand.

710

00:55:31,421 --> 00:55:37,884

The idea even, you know, from your name, the Keppel, the colour of the green and the

leopard.

711

00:55:37,884 --> 00:55:40,845

I think it's such a lovely, it trips off the tongue beautifully, Keppel.

712

00:55:40,845 --> 00:55:43,366

I really like that.

713

00:55:43,547 --> 00:55:44,985

But yeah, everything.

714

00:55:44,985 --> 00:55:46,776

has a backstory to it.

715

00:55:46,776 --> 00:55:54,449

And that was the thing that really piqued my interest when we were chatting, because you

were saying, yes, I'm going to do more of this this year, and I'm going to put a little

716

00:55:54,449 --> 00:55:57,821

bit of my identity, my personality out there.

717

00:55:57,821 --> 00:56:02,023

And I was like, God, you have to come onto the podcast, because that's exactly what I'm

doing.

718

00:56:02,023 --> 00:56:05,004

It's that gap, isn't it, between your intention and actions.

719

00:56:05,004 --> 00:56:09,546

So this is one of your actions to move yourself forward into that intention.

720

00:56:09,546 --> 00:56:11,207

But you do this.

721

00:56:11,917 --> 00:56:13,152

as bread and butter work.

722

00:56:13,152 --> 00:56:17,059

That's the really fascinating thing for me is that you do this for everybody else.

723

00:56:17,059 --> 00:56:18,240

Yeah, it is.

724

00:56:18,240 --> 00:56:19,911

And I think it I find it really interesting.

725

00:56:19,911 --> 00:56:24,722

And I think that's when we were talking about is the fact that I can do it for everybody

else.

726

00:56:25,023 --> 00:56:27,244

And I can see what everybody else is going for.

727

00:56:27,244 --> 00:56:29,611

And I can see those little sort of hints of sort of stuff.

728

00:56:29,611 --> 00:56:31,946

It's like, that's that's the position that you need to be in.

729

00:56:31,946 --> 00:56:34,206

And that's where you need to go, because I can see it.

730

00:56:34,206 --> 00:56:39,803

And very much because how we usually do strategy, it's like a two and a half hour

conversation.

731

00:56:39,803 --> 00:56:43,116

And it is like this is we just have a conversation with people.

732

00:56:43,116 --> 00:56:51,680

And it's those little bits, it's those little tip bits where they sort of say it on an

offside or they just kind of put it under the breath or whatnot is like, that's the bit.

733

00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:57,272

So I can pick it out and I can really kind of pull it out, but I don't do it for myself.

734

00:56:57,272 --> 00:57:07,846

And I was just like, actually, think putting myself out there, just a little bit more

talking about it a little bit more, really helped people kind of sort of realize like the

735

00:57:07,846 --> 00:57:11,726

whole sort of story behind it and where it actually kind of came from.

736

00:57:11,726 --> 00:57:16,486

Because I think quite often people sort of questions like where does capital left would

come from most of the time?

737

00:57:16,486 --> 00:57:18,446

They ask is there such thing as a capital leopard.

738

00:57:18,446 --> 00:57:36,606

I'm like, no, I've never found one so far Yeah Yeah, it's a color Yeah, yeah exactly So

yeah, so so yeah, so I thought maybe sort of going out especially because how the business

739

00:57:36,606 --> 00:57:40,974

is going is that is now it's starting to grow and it's starting to move away is like

actually

740

00:57:40,974 --> 00:57:44,696

kind want to tell people a little bit more about where everything kind of comes from.

741

00:57:44,696 --> 00:57:49,058

There is an actual backstory behind everything and where things come from.

742

00:57:49,058 --> 00:57:56,763

And I think people know bits and pieces and I tell people like little tiny bits and it's

the same thing is that I will tell people certain things and other people certain things.

743

00:57:56,884 --> 00:58:05,989

But it's quite nice to just kind of go, this is how it all kind of happened and this is

why it all kind of comes to this fruition and this is where I am now.

744

00:58:05,989 --> 00:58:06,890

So.

745

00:58:07,703 --> 00:58:17,063

definitely intrigued to see where the year takes you with that kind of control and

boundary around your personal identity and what you choose to share with us.

746

00:58:17,063 --> 00:58:20,653

It's such an interesting concept, isn't it?

747

00:58:20,754 --> 00:58:28,120

I've got a word of the year and my word of the year is joy and I'm bringing more joy to

things and there's a reason for this.

748

00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:36,646

Part of it is to, I suppose, push myself a little bit out of my comfort zone and bring in

spontaneity.

749

00:58:36,972 --> 00:58:37,685

Yeah.

750

00:58:37,685 --> 00:58:45,504

do you bring, I mean, I think you've demonstrated through the conversation how you bring

joy to everything you do, how, you know, are there some things that you're doing to bring

751

00:58:45,504 --> 00:58:51,972

joy to your work, especially in this like kind of dull January that we're in at the

moment, or we've just come out of in February.

752

00:58:52,242 --> 00:58:54,154

we're slowly coming out of it.

753

00:58:54,330 --> 00:59:03,240

yeah, so I think this year, especially like for me and my husband, we suddenly realized

that actually in terms of our friendship groups, we haven't seen them very often because

754

00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:05,622

we all are super, super busy.

755

00:59:05,622 --> 00:59:06,763

We're all really, really busy.

756

00:59:06,763 --> 00:59:11,606

And then we thought actually we probably need to do it because especially I have ADHD.

757

00:59:11,630 --> 00:59:16,810

So what I think is I've to you yesterday, actually turns out, it's been three months.

758

00:59:16,810 --> 00:59:20,250

So I won't have that kind of time management.

759

00:59:20,250 --> 00:59:22,550

I'm like, oh, actually, I've spoken to you for ages.

760

00:59:22,550 --> 00:59:24,930

So we made it sort of very clear at the end of the year.

761

00:59:24,930 --> 00:59:26,410

It's like, we want to do more with our friends.

762

00:59:26,410 --> 00:59:27,770

We want to do more with our family.

763

00:59:27,770 --> 00:59:28,850

We want to make those connections.

764

00:59:28,850 --> 00:59:30,990

And we want to kind of prioritize that.

765

00:59:31,190 --> 00:59:39,150

So actually, this month, me and my high school friend, so we've known each other for

766

00:59:39,150 --> 00:59:45,170

donkey's ears, which is quite scary to realise that actually high school wasn't yesterday,

it was quite a far away way.

767

00:59:45,850 --> 00:59:49,910

And we know each other from right, right at the beginning of high school.

768

00:59:49,910 --> 00:59:53,350

We used to sit in class together.

769

00:59:53,350 --> 00:59:57,310

She used to pass me grapes when we weren't supposed to be eating in class.

770

00:59:58,370 --> 01:00:01,850

French verb tests were a group effort.

771

01:00:01,850 --> 01:00:04,686

So we've known each other for absolute ages.

772

01:00:04,686 --> 01:00:10,766

And we both have a really massive fondness of reading books and reading all sorts of

things.

773

01:00:11,146 --> 01:00:21,226

the other day, well, a few months ago, I found out that a place called Hey on Why is

dedicated to books and they've got loads and loads of bookshops and they do the

774

01:00:21,226 --> 01:00:23,226

literature, yeah, and they do the book festival.

775

01:00:23,226 --> 01:00:27,446

And we just kind of messaged each other and we were just like, this is really cool, should

we go?

776

01:00:27,446 --> 01:00:28,266

And we were like, yeah.

777

01:00:28,266 --> 01:00:30,026

So we booked somewhere for the weekend.

778

01:00:30,026 --> 01:00:33,946

So in January, I actually went for a long weekend with my best friend, Rowan.

779

01:00:34,091 --> 01:00:36,002

And we went to a bookshop.

780

01:00:36,002 --> 01:00:39,143

We spent four hours looking around, on why looking at books.

781

01:00:39,143 --> 01:00:41,394

And then the next day we spent reading books.

782

01:00:41,394 --> 01:00:41,945

That's what we did.

783

01:00:41,945 --> 01:00:43,245

We had a log fire.

784

01:00:43,245 --> 01:00:44,246

We read books.

785

01:00:44,246 --> 01:00:46,886

Our kids weren't interrupting us because they weren't there.

786

01:00:47,747 --> 01:00:48,687

Yeah.

787

01:00:48,688 --> 01:00:50,284

And so, yeah, so it was really, really nice.

788

01:00:50,284 --> 01:00:53,450

So that's ultimately that was that was really nice because we hadn't seen it.

789

01:00:53,450 --> 01:00:57,582

We hadn't seen each other since the pandemic.

790

01:00:57,582 --> 01:00:59,572

So we hadn't seen each other for ages.

791

01:00:59,572 --> 01:01:03,278

And it was just one of those things, again, where we sort of we keep in contact with each

other.

792

01:01:03,278 --> 01:01:05,158

We kind of think that we saw each other yesterday.

793

01:01:05,158 --> 01:01:06,038

We have not.

794

01:01:06,038 --> 01:01:09,438

have, it has been like eight years since we've seen each other.

795

01:01:09,438 --> 01:01:10,738

So it was really lovely.

796

01:01:10,738 --> 01:01:21,658

And it was, what was really, what was really interesting was when we were, when we were

talking about it and things is that ultimately we are both very similar.

797

01:01:21,658 --> 01:01:24,918

So she was messaging me and going, are you okay with crosshands?

798

01:01:24,918 --> 01:01:26,878

I was just like, it's not a holiday without crosshands.

799

01:01:26,878 --> 01:01:28,698

She's like, I know, right?

800

01:01:28,698 --> 01:01:30,858

So yeah, so we had like crosshands.

801

01:01:31,598 --> 01:01:35,758

And things like, I messaged her, like, we should get orange juice.

802

01:01:35,758 --> 01:01:36,818

She's like, it's already on the list.

803

01:01:36,818 --> 01:01:38,198

Are you okay with bits or no bits?

804

01:01:38,198 --> 01:01:39,498

It's like, not really fuss.

805

01:01:39,498 --> 01:01:44,138

So we are very, very like really in sync with each other.

806

01:01:44,138 --> 01:01:50,358

And what was even more hilarious when we were on there, we were talking about, for

Christmas I got Hogwarts legacy.

807

01:01:50,358 --> 01:01:56,198

So we both were big Harry Potter fans when we were at school and I got Harry Potter legacy

on the Xbox.

808

01:01:56,198 --> 01:01:57,118

Cause my husband bought it.

809

01:01:57,118 --> 01:01:58,458

I was like, this is amazing.

810

01:01:58,688 --> 01:02:01,981

she'd also got it for Christmas at the same time.

811

01:02:01,981 --> 01:02:05,561

But we hadn't told each other and she said, I'm playing this game and it's about Hogwarts.

812

01:02:05,561 --> 01:02:06,715

I was like, is it Hogwarts legacy?

813

01:02:06,715 --> 01:02:08,346

And she's like, yes, it is.

814

01:02:08,858 --> 01:02:13,000

And I was just like, and then I said, it was just like, what house did you go for?

815

01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:16,873

Cause if you've not known about Harry Potter and things, there's four different houses

that you go into.

816

01:02:16,873 --> 01:02:20,447

Most people, most people cause Harry Potter is in Gryffindor.

817

01:02:20,447 --> 01:02:21,638

They go for Gryffindor.

818

01:02:21,638 --> 01:02:23,759

We both went for Ravenclaw.

819

01:02:25,698 --> 01:02:26,894

Cause we're just like.

820

01:02:26,894 --> 01:02:28,154

Ravenclaw's better, right?

821

01:02:28,154 --> 01:02:32,794

was like, So yeah, hadn't, we hadn't sort of spoken about it.

822

01:02:32,794 --> 01:02:35,194

We'd not known, neither of us knew it.

823

01:02:35,194 --> 01:02:36,614

And I was just like, so what house did you go for?

824

01:02:36,614 --> 01:02:37,334

She's like, Ravenclaw.

825

01:02:37,334 --> 01:02:38,574

was like, yeah, exactly.

826

01:02:39,494 --> 01:02:40,394

So yeah.

827

01:02:40,394 --> 01:02:48,434

So we've had, all the time and we've got some other things booked in as well to like meet

up with friends, catch up with them, all those things.

828

01:02:48,434 --> 01:02:56,354

So that's, that's the kind of priority for this time and making connections, making

connections business wise, making connections back with, friends as well.

829

01:02:56,354 --> 01:02:57,094

So.

830

01:02:57,295 --> 01:02:57,999

I love that.

831

01:02:57,999 --> 01:02:59,274

I love that so much.

832

01:02:59,274 --> 01:03:02,116

Thank you so much for sharing that with me.

833

01:03:04,857 --> 01:03:10,508

What I'll do now is I'll just record the outro to my podcast and say thank you to you too.

834

01:03:10,508 --> 01:03:13,126

And then I'll stop the recording.

835

01:03:13,126 --> 01:03:14,177

no worries.

836

01:03:14,927 --> 01:03:20,107

Thanks for listening to Psychologically Speaking with me, Leela Ainge and my guest, Katie

Cope.

837

01:03:20,107 --> 01:03:27,567

My usual reminder is to rate, review and share this podcast widely as it really helps

independent podcasters like me.

838

01:03:28,207 --> 01:03:31,507

I'm opening up additional coaching slots for 2025.

839

01:03:31,507 --> 01:03:41,047

My specialities include tackling imposter phenomenon, of course, accountability and

supporting first-time directors and business owners, balance growth with joy.

840

01:03:41,047 --> 01:03:46,411

I also offer one-to-one supervision and group supervision sessions for coaches.

841

01:03:46,411 --> 01:03:58,759

Visit my website www.leelaange.co.uk for pricing and package information and use inquiry

form.

842

01:03:59,080 --> 01:04:00,341

That's all for now.

843

01:04:00,341 --> 01:04:09,867

Psychologically Speaking continues in February, looking at the space between intention and

action when it comes to personal and professional identities.

844

01:04:11,321 --> 01:04:12,073

There we go.

845

01:04:12,073 --> 01:04:14,529

I'm just going to press the stop on record.