[00:00:01] The materialization and the concept develop side by side. I Think anybody can have fantastic ideas and that's very valuable. But there's a lot of creativity and enormous amount of time that's required to develop an idea into something that can actually survive an exhibition of three months and that can be made in the first place.

[00:00:20] I really try to develop ideas in the sense that they can be made locally without shipping lots of material. For example, I only send the technical components that cannot be quickly made. And then the rest of the structure is added by local aluminum profiles or standard materials that you can find locally.

[00:00:43] I think you have to be lucky. That's definitely part of it. And that you cannot do so much about. But you can actually, to push luck, go and do volunteer work. In theatre, in the cinema, in a museum, in a gallery. And then you meet people.

[00:01:04] Welcome back to the installation art podcast, the number one and only podcast about installation art and the people who work with it.

[00:01:14] In each episode, you will hear about the joys and the challenges of the medium and get an exclusive behind the scenes look at the career and process of internationally renowned guests. I am your host, Anastasia Parmson.

[00:01:31] Joining me today is Belgian artist Lawrence Malstaf, based in Norway. Lawrence is known for kinetic sculptures and immersive installations that invite visitors to physically interact with the work and often become part of the work itself.

[00:01:48] You have probably already seen his most viral piece called Shrink, a performative installation featuring people suspended and vacuum packed into large plastic sheets.

[00:02:00] I'm very excited to be able to take you behind the scenes of this intriguing work. So let's dive into my conversation with Lawrence Malstaff.

[00:02:11] How are you this morning?

[00:02:12] I'm fine. we just got the snow finally came in Tromsø,

[00:02:17] Oh.

[00:02:18] a bit late actually. Normally it's earlier, but now it's a very snowy, windy serious winter morning.

[00:02:24] Hmm. First snow. Wow, that's always exciting.

[00:02:29] well, thanks, Lawrence, for agreeing to doing this. It's a really great honor to have you on the show. Let's maybe start with some very quick, first thing that comes to your mind questions.

[00:02:43] Okay.

[00:02:44] How's your work life balance?

[00:02:47] It's hard to distinguish.

[00:02:49] There's no boundary.

[00:02:51] Well, it flows a lot into each other. Yes. Of course. Yes. I I would like to work less, although I really love my work. I enjoy it very much. I don't consider it as work. It's more something I just love to do, but I have a family. I have two children. They are. Almost grown up or kind of halfway there. So it's not like kids at all. They are 17 and 21.

[00:03:16] Mm.

[00:03:17] And my wife is also an artist, so she's also making projects and we also work together on several projects. So, in that sense

[00:03:24] Mm.

[00:03:25] we understand and support each other a lot. But, life is finite. I'm now past 50 and it's not a time to postpone. Um, You know, we live also in a fantastic area here with lots of nature, mountains, and it's good to come out to not only spend time in the studio and, discover what's outside. And also, yeah, lots of great people living here in a small town, Tromsø, but it's a lot of artists actually.

[00:03:52] Yeah, I have a tendency to be really sucked into my art and luckily my wife often takes me out to discover other artists, other projects, and also the mountains and nature.

[00:04:04] Mm hmm. Do you have a favorite quote?

[00:04:07] One can forgive a man for making a useless thing as long as he admires it intensely. That's Oscar Wilde, which could be related to art and And it continues, one can forgive a man to making a useful thing as long as he doesn't admire it intensely.

[00:04:26] Mm. Okay. Love that.

[00:04:29] yeah, it's about for me, I interpret it as about we live in a world where everything has to be so efficient and so functional and rational and we lose the, I mean, anyway, life is absurd in the bigger picture and Art is maybe a little gateway to looking at it in that way, and to observe that all things are, can be important or unimportant.

[00:04:51] It depends on how you look at it.

[00:04:52] Mm hmm. Yeah. And what's your favorite beverage in the studio while you're working?

[00:05:01] Well, actually, one of my interns here pointed out that I drink very little that I should drink more, at least water. I have a little coffee machine but it's it's quite basic, yeah.

[00:05:13] Okay. So, you need to hydrate more, basically.

[00:05:17] Yeah,

[00:05:18] Apparently.

[00:05:19] Apparently, yeah.

[00:05:20] Okay, well, let's, let's take things back a bit into the past. Tell me briefly about where you grew up and what kind of stuff were you into as a kid?

[00:05:34] Yes I grew up in Belgium, in Bruges. It's a town not so far from the sea, in the west of the country. Very small country. In a safe suburban environment, a nice house, a great family, I had a happy childhood, I would say. I'm not a tormented, I don't get so much controversial, dramatic inspiration from that childhood.

[00:05:59] I would say it was a very supportive. My father was not professional artist but he had a studio and was teaching art, teaching art history. And my mother was also my father is still alive, my mother or not. She was actually maybe more the real artist in her mind and maybe more free. But my father had more like the art history, the technique, he's painting oil on canvas and.

[00:06:25] Mm

[00:06:25] the professional background, let's say. So that was very supportive and open home to grow up in, I would say. Played a lot with Lego, making things like buying a box or also a model trucks basically or modeling. But then not really building what was the prescription in the manual, but cutting it up or, or recomposing it and making one new thing out of two boxes. That was maybe more the winter occupation. And then we lived in a kind of forest area, let's say, so it was a lot in the woods building tree houses and yeah, playing in the mud. So that was more the physical part, let's say.

[00:07:05] And then drawing. I always loved drawing. My father was also good at that and taught me. Actually, later on, I wanted to go to art academy because I love to also play with making things. He always took me to art exhibitions. And even though I was not always so into that, or when we were traveling, we would always go see churches or, we visited a lot in France. There's a lot of Roman uh, Monasteries or.

[00:07:32] But then somehow in, in Belgium, it's the parents who finance your studies. So it's not, you don't get a loan or something. You don't. So you're quite dependent on what your parents decide and they, thought it would be more appropriate to study something more safe, although he was somehow artists. And then I ended up doing industrial design. Right across the art academy in the city where I studied, Antwerp. actually, I was going to an open door. To visit the architecture department. That was kind of the plan, but on the same day in the same school, I discovered this industrial design. And at that time, it was not so much. It was the time before all the computers took over and it was really like making models you know, constructing 3 dimensional things with all kinds of materials. Not only the clay and plaster you would have in the art academy, but really contemporary things, plastics, metalworking. And then at the same time, it was also really a school that was focused on industrial design, not design design or not furniture design or interior design was really like production of things. How factories would make things. And that I thought was really Inspiring. Like much more open introduction into all the materials. I mean, the computer in front of us, the, the paper, the, the cables here, the 3D printer, we are surrounded by all these materials. So, why not make art with these contemporary materials?

[00:09:02] hmm. So were you studying the industrial design with that thought that, oh, I will use these skills and tools to make art?

[00:09:12] I don't think I had a plan really. And I never really had a big strategy for my career, still not. But but in retrospect, I think it really inspired what I was going to make later. That was a really interesting study and during my studies and also immediately after I, I worked as an artist or I never really had a job as industrial designer, although now.

[00:09:37] hmm.

[00:09:38] Really recently, it's I'm moving a bit into that direction, but maybe we can come back to that later.

[00:09:44] Mm hmm. Yeah. So, how did you get into making installation art?

[00:09:50] I'm not sure where, where the beginning was, but let's say, I think that this industrial design was an introduction into different materials. And also, Antwerp is a, is a harbor area I'm kind of just improvising, I haven't thought about this, when this really started, but in this harbor, back at the time, there was nothing was fenced off so much as nowadays, I would say.

[00:10:16] So on the weekends, I would bike around, pick up old leftovers from steel parts or this or that. I had a really cool studio, or at least a art collective with a couple of students in an old printing shop. So I had quite a big place there to store and accumulate all kinds of trash, let's say. And I thought at that time, maybe already as a reaction towards this industrial design, which is focused on making things perfect and clean, I knew I was interested in seeing the decay or the other side of all this industrially produced products when they decay, when they are turned to waste, when they are um, Turning back to nature in a way when things start rusting and deforming when they are being fished out of the canal again, for example. So these things were maybe a beginning of really like exploring contemporary industrial materials in all their phases of life. More as a curiosity as finding the beauty in it.

[00:11:15] I Would say quite for a longer phase, my art practice was maybe not so much about creating, but about finding and then framing. Or can be a simple object and then, okay, this is nice, maybe I have to put a light on it and cut out the parts that are too distracting. And then, later on I think I was more and more interested in physical phenomena like vibration caused by a big motor in a ship, for example, and that makes the cupboard rattle and the glasses on top.

[00:11:46] And, and how can you reproduce this in a museum? How can I make a mechanism that makes these classes vibrate and then it becomes a poetic sculpture in a way.

[00:11:57] But it's more like discovering elements in the world around me and then reproducing them, making them possible to share with an audience that doesn't have the time to hang out in the harbor and discover these things, but goes to the museum on Sunday and has one hour to. So that's a bit the role of the artist, I think, to Share and make things possible that you discover in this, surprising world. Yeah.

[00:12:22] And so how did you then go to showing installation work? What was your first big opportunity or project?

[00:12:31] Well, maybe I can talk about one or two. Quite early on as a student already, I worked as a volunteer in theater and dance as helping out the stenographer or um. Like getting involved in improvisation projects with dancers, bringing in objects not only as a set, as a decoration around the performance, but more as a physical impact on their body. For example, like adding a stone on the shoulder, attaching a weight to the body or putting one leg in cold water, the other in hot water before a dancer would go on stage and. Kind of, you could maybe think of John Cage who would make a prepared piano and put objects in the strings so that the sound of the piano would be transformed.

[00:13:14] So these were By coincidence, I think friends for my brother who was also working in the theater at that time. And That was maybe after this industrial design, this was another field, let's say, the performance and the stage arts. That has been an important influence for me.

[00:13:32] Mm hmm.

[00:13:33] and that was also maybe my first way of making a little money. And one thing leads to the other. Then the stenographer I helped out was ill and needed help. So I replaced him. And yeah, I think theater has often been a way to experiment, a way to discover new interactions with audience. Because working with dancers are also visitors in a way, or you could say for me, the visitor in an exhibition is also considered a bit as a performer or part of the installation or the visual Reality of the of the installation. So yeah, I think that's where I did my first projects there. And then got invited okay, maybe you can in the theater, can you make something in the hall? You get a very tiny fee, but for me, that was a lot of money. And I started to make my first installations, not in the real gallery, let's say, but for a theater or for a festival. And that was also maybe in the time, like the second half of the nineties when this idea of interdisciplinarity was becoming more important, where you had crossover of visual arts, working in theater, dancers working in the museum. Yeah, so that that was beginning phase, let's say.

[00:14:43] Mm hmm. Interesting, because there's still these performative and very physical elements in your installation, even when they're not for theater. So how did you get out of the theater and into the fine art scene from there?

[00:15:01] Yeah. I would say that theater is still an important part in my work and I still have projects and it's I think two worlds that really feed each other. I don't see them as separated. An installation can be picked up by a director and then maybe the director asks: Oh, could we adapt this to a scenography for a performance or the other way around? And, the scenography is adapted to work independently and in a museum. So it's not like two separate type of projects really. Of course the time is different and I need to adapt things technically. But I think an, an important person was my agent who I've been working with since 2000 or even before that.

[00:15:42] Ischa Tallieu She's running Tailleu Art Office. She used to run a really beautiful gallery in Belgium, in Ghent. And that was for me, I think the most clear introduction into the visual arts. Because at that time she discovered me when I was running a really cool place in Brussels, an old swimming pool that was not a swimming pool anymore, but it was abandoned for a long time. And with a group of artists, we made a deal with the owner to transform it into artist studios, Yeah. Performing arts. And that was also this whole concept of multidisciplinary space with, we had architects, philosopher, botanist, lots of performance and visual artists, but to mix all these things together, had big space and could make big installations there with very little money.

[00:16:30] And then she was just one of the visitors came along and she loved my work and invited me and then ever since we're still working together now.

[00:16:38] Hmm, cool. that's a great story. So you basically created your own opportunities by organizing that space.

[00:16:46] Yes, and it's still a, a reference for me this, this time when I finished my studies, very shortly after that, I founded this space in Brussels called Les Bains Connective. So Les Bains is the bath houses because it's not only a pool, it was like. The time where people would have many, many bathrooms, people didn't have a bathroom at home. But you would go to this house where you could actually take a bath.

[00:17:10] And so there was many different rooms with many different disciplines kind of having each their studio below. And that would somehow all accumulate and cross pollinate in the central big hall where the swimming pool was. That was the dream, but it was tough as well, cold and underpaid.

[00:17:29] Yeah, still sounds good. I would love to have seen it. Your work looks very technically precise. Do you build everything yourself?

[00:17:44] Uh, Well, to the precise, I would say it is never as precise as I would like. And I think it's also what I'm really looking at is like the contrast between precision or control, let's say, and the uncontrollable. I think the uncontrollable is what I'm actually interested in, or that's maybe the poetic or the beauty or the. Yeah, the fascinating the mystery of the materials and the movements and the physical phenomena that I'm interested in and then, of course, the precision or the materials, the motors around it are sometimes also part of the... I don't want to hide that. That's also part of the image, I would say.

[00:18:23] But this begins with. Okay, how can I reproduce this, back to the shaking glasses, how can I keep this going for an exhibition that lasts maybe three months? I have to make it really good because of course we all know that this kind of kinetic art breaks down. They're often in the exhibition Oh Out of order.

[00:18:44] So during the years I, learned uh, YouTube has been very important. Of course it started a bit with the industrial design background. But that's, that's maybe also a hobby. I mean, I love to work with CNC machines. The one you see up there, that's something I'm working on right now. It's for a very different project, but. Yes I love to make things myself for a lot of inspiration comes from this. Also from all the failures, because you triy the first one, things break, they bend. Oh, and this band is actually a really interesting tension in the material there. This could be interesting. Yeah, but I don't have time for that. That's in the back of the mind for maybe.

[00:19:22] So by making myself, I think I accumulate ideas for, for future projects. And also I know more what is possible or what is like it's, it's definitely not... I don't start from a concept and then find a translation into the physical world

[00:19:43] to make that, It's always parallel. I, of course, I have an idea would be fantastic to make this book fly, for example, but okay. Maybe if I work with that wind current or this or that. So it's always the The materialization and the concept develop side by side. Because I think really, the coming up with great concepts and ideas is maybe, I think anybody can have fantastic ideas and that's very valuable. But there's a lot of creativity and enormous amount of time that's required to develop an idea into something that can actually survive an exhibition of three months and that can be made in the first place.

[00:20:23] Mm. Yeah, so you develop your work by doing?

[00:20:27] Yes.

[00:20:27] What does your studio look like? Do you still use a lot of found objects?

[00:20:33] Well, I'm a bit returning to that maybe. I think that has been only the very beginning phase that was important as a student and then gradually, with working with dancers and theater, the central thing I was looking for is more movement or motion. Being either of objects or of the visitors themselves. Making something around the visitor or with the audience or. so Motion was more important, let's say, than the aesthetic object. I mean, and in that sense, I've, I've accumulated more machines, so if you want, I can give you a little tour in the, in the studio. There is, for example, a CNC machine that um, so it's a lot of uh, now actually I emptied the room because my wife is also using this as a dance studio on Mondays.

[00:21:26] Ah. Ha ha ha. Wow.

[00:21:29] in, behind there is the workshop, let's say. Which you cannot see much of, but all the stuff, dusty parts, dusty maneuvers are happening in there.

[00:21:39] Mm

[00:21:40] So it's more machines than objects. I would say that I'm accumulating. A lot for metal, how to say, working with metals, yeah.

[00:21:48] Mm hmm.

[00:21:50] But recently, the past couple of years, what has become more and more important is transforming my practice into a sustainable way of producing art. And then also I'm turning more and more to found materials in nature. Like not things that come from human made waste I mean, there are some special plants that are growing here. Now I'm doing a big project with birds, with seagulls. Actually, this is the panel you see up there is 1 of, um. part of a large hotel I'm building for seagulls on tripods that are slowly moving the sea... First we seduce them to make their nests on it

[00:22:33] Mm because the city here is, really um, invaded by A huge colony of seagulls. But a special type of seagulls, kittiwakes, that are threatened with extinction. There are only a few thousands left. But if all these thousands come to our small town it's a big issue.

[00:22:52] Mm.

[00:22:53] now the last two seasons we managed in collaboration with some scientists and an architect

[00:22:57] To seduce them to come and nest on this bird hotels, they are made like tripods very lightweight. So we could move them at night, one meter, two meter away from the building.

[00:23:09] While the gulls are away?

[00:23:11] uh, Yes, at night, they go out onto the sea and they come back here when the light comes back in the morning. And then they discover, oh it's moved two meters. Okay. It's fine. We go back. And like that, we managed to move them.

[00:23:24] yeah, now it's, we're so happy because it turned from something that people hated: they are so noisy, they, of course, throw a lot of poop down on the house, it's very smelly. And the people who work in the museum were like, they almost had to close the offices.

[00:23:39] So they basically had like a breeding ground on the art museum, is that correct?

[00:23:44] Yes, the facade of the museum was covered. I mean, it was actually the most brilliant art performance in town, I would say. Because they're really climate refugees. They come and protest to us humans causing this climate disaster, but well, it's a practical solution now, and now there's many other buildings that have a similar situation and it's a project that's really expanding. And for me, this is really nice to make something that stands in real life that is not only yet again and a beautiful white cube or a black box, but something um. It's an interspecies project that's, of course, for the birds but also it attracts a lot of attention from the population who's interested. I mean, it's really cool to see. It's a dance. It's a choreography to see them circle and mate and when the chicks are coming. Yeah,

[00:24:36] So where are you moving them to?

[00:24:39] From this museum, they are in front of the museum. There is a park and so we sloping down towards the sea and we put them in the bottom of the park.

[00:24:48] And that's now being built as we speak. And this morning, they are digging the foundation for a bigger structure, 2 towers of 10 meter high with about 500 nests on each tower.

[00:25:02] that is a very cool project. I encourage the listeners to go and check it out on your website. But let's go back to the humans involved in your projects. Your work often relies on the physical presence of somebody in the audience. Tell me a bit about the process to ensure that everything works smoothly in that interaction between the person, a layman, and the work.

[00:25:35] With a layman, you mean somebody who's not me, or who is not, who doesn't know

[00:25:42] Somebody who is not you or a performer in the piece who is just a member of the public interacting with the work.

[00:25:51] Well, I think maybe the motivation starts from the fact that, as I said, for me, it's often about observing a phenomenon in the world, observing how a coffee cup falls down, breaks and rolls around. And uh, I mean, that's maybe not such a good example, but it starts from an experience, a physical experience. Me as a person in the world, going out now in the snowy Winter here in the morning, and I think trying to capture this, trying to reproduce this in a museum space. It's about the fact that in a way, as people, we are always in the middle of things.

[00:26:25] We try to get an overview on the world. We try to observe objectively. We have an incredible science evolution in the past 200 years. but it's impossible. I mean, we are always subjective, we are always surrounded and influenced by so many other things. And that's why also as an artist, I think it's in a way, it's... I'm not saying what art should be but for me, it's, it's interesting to just make situations where people are also in the middle of the experience and not looking at an object outside or a conclusion that you as an artist have thought of this is a finished idea. This is something that's external and that you look at as a statement from the artist. I think for me, it's interesting to make a situation where something can happen, where something can evolve during a certain duration. With your presence, the situation will be different with your response to it with your resistance to it maybe. Yeah, I'm thinking now yesterday I had a workshop with one of my more known works is, is this vacuum performance where people are being vacuum packed in between 2 layers of plastic

[00:27:39] Yeah.

[00:27:40] and that's very first of all, it's a good example, actually what you see as a visitor, looking at somebody being vacuum packed, it's very different to what it feels when you are inside as a performer or or a visitor. So that's already a good example. And this project was originally designed as something that visitors, with with a guide of course, experience, go inside. And then once inside, if you resist to it, it's really difficult. You get warm, you get sweaty, you get sticky, you get even more stuck. While as if you adapt and if you relax, if you can trust the environment and listen and adapt your body to this of course very absurd situation, then it becomes something very peaceful and supporting. It's like floating in a salt water tank.

[00:28:30] Mm

[00:28:30] This is maybe the most explicit example, but with many other installations, it's also about you as a visitor having choices to experience this in different ways.

[00:28:41] And also, the second layer is then the people who are actually observing this participant and thereby this person, the participant becomes a bit of an actor, although you're not necessarily so exposed, it's often quite more intimate than in this vacuum piece where you're really exhibited, let's say, but in many other installations, it's more something's happening if you wait your turn. Maybe it's two, three people at the same time. Maybe it's a big group of people at the same time. But there's often two layers, like they're looking from the outside and then once you're inside, you are actually co directing or co actor, let's say, in an event.

[00:29:19] Have things gottenn damaged in the exhibition process?

[00:29:27] don't mention the war. Yes, of course, but actually not really dramatic. It's more things working. Things get worn out. Things have to be replaced. And that's of course, over the years, I got more experience to ship spare parts and to know which things can go wrong. I think the more experience, even the more experience I have with all these technicalities, the more I know what can go wrong.

[00:29:50] Yep.

[00:29:51] Uh, you can never avoid. Like even this vacuum piece, which has now been traveling since 1995, there are still new situations that occur where you think: how is it possible? How can I mean I thought now I experienced everything but now the Sun is coming from that angle while there is a wind coming from here. I don't know. It's amazing How reality is so creative always to come up with new combinations and new challenges.

[00:30:18] Well, give me an example, for the shrink piece.

[00:30:23] Well, I mean, it's not so hard to imagine in retrospect, but in Madrid the, um, well, it's, I must say it's kind of new now that this project is being exhibited outdoors. So that brings just a new series of challenges. And in Madrid, it was of course hot. We had thought of, okay, we prepare. We cannot do it when the sun is directly on it, we wait till the sun sets. Okay. Fine. Winds, they have calculated the wind forces with certain weights and this and that everything prepared. And they had put the white covers on the, we, we covered the, because it was on a big square, six of this vacuum pieces.

[00:31:03] It was a really nice setup in um. matadero, Madrid, a beautiful huge arts center with several theaters, concert halls. And then of course, how was it? The sun, Yeah, the sun would go down a bit later than we calculated. I mean, that's a human mistake, I don't think the sun made the variation there. But that means that one person would still be super hot and the other people would already be in the shadow. And I mean, it's not a big deal, but this kind of things are you can prepare and calculate and have the computer with all these preparations, but still uh, things turn out differently.

[00:31:40] Mm hmm. And is it still a participatory work?

[00:31:44] Well, it's definitely for every city, there is a call for local people to take part in a workshop one or two days before. And then I train them. It's not that complicated. It's really about, um, making people feel confident and, and creating a good atmosphere. And there are some practicalities with the tube. But it's really about building trust and, and surrendering to this situation. Then it becomes a beautiful experience. And most often it ends up with a really nice family feeling.

[00:32:17] Mm hmm.

[00:32:18] Where people go, of course, through an intense experience. It's often several performances per day for several days. And yeah, it really becomes a kind of a community project.

[00:32:29] And occasionally it's also still exhibited where visitors of the exhibition can go in the shrink without the workshop. And then there is a guide, but that's quite rare. Although that's how the project started.

[00:32:42] Mm hmm. Okay. And how long are they in there for at a time?

[00:32:47] The performance usually lasts around 20 minutes. Um, You could be longer but that's more or less when you have seen it as an audience, let's say. It's a very minimalist thing. People go inside, you see them go inside, you see them climb up. It's. It's not, no big mystery there.

[00:33:03] But of course it's very surprising then when you see that they actually stay in there and how do they breathe and how does it this and that.

[00:33:10] And then they are kind of like paintings, let's say, I really ask them to be very still in certain positions, do really small adjustments. Partly because it's good to, you're, you're really stuck. But they can control the pressure inside. And when you're stuck like this for 20 minutes, it's not good for your neck.

[00:33:27] So you do need to take different positions a little bit and aesthetically. Also, it's a kind of variation between very roughly, not too explicit, but between contracted fetus position or an extended uh, Christ, but they are free to improvise a bit between these positions.

[00:33:47] Yeah. So, you mentioned, this work is actually pretty old, from 1995, I believe. And I think most people have seen it, it, it, it's gone viral on social media. Do you ever feel as an artist that you're sick of showing that one work, and you just want to move on, and be known for something else?

[00:34:11] I've been there some time ago. Absolutely. Yeah. But that's quite some time ago, let's say. I think later on this project, of course, brings in possibilities to create other less popular projects, or projects that are less well funded, like, for example with the bird project or um. So I'm happy that I have this and that it's also rewarding or this, this concept with training local people makes also that it's a different experience every time. I also have to prove or, or, or establish this trust with a new group. And, and it's always different in that sense. But yes, I had a time, maybe when I was younger and more ambitious about conquering the world that I want to show this and that and that. Now I'm more happy to create, to have the means to, to produce new things and new projects. And if that's by means of selling Shrink once more time, then I'm very happy for that.

[00:35:03] Hmm, interesting perspective. What would you like the viewers to take away from experiencing your work?

[00:35:12] Ooh, yeah, that's a tricky question, I would say. Because on one hand, of course, I don't want to shy away and say, no, it's all up to the audience. But I think I don't want to be too explicit about: this is what it's about, I want you to get that, this is my message, that's the point. I think my projects. I would compare more to creating a possibility that puts you in a certain state of mind. I mean, the shrink will put you in a different direction than if you look at the observatory or to the conveyor belt, for example.

[00:35:45] So it's definitely opening a certain door in your mind, let's say. But then It's I see it more as a as a catalyst for what's already in the visitor's mind. To make a cheesy comparison, if you go to look at a sunset It's an incredible powerful thing that everybody can appreciate. I think that's an amazing Meaningful, although nobody knows what the sunset is about. Of course, it puts you in a different mood than looking at the lightning storm or.

[00:36:14] But if I could make something like a sunset, which is the most cheesy example I can find now, but it's like, or back to the vacuum piece. Also, I think if you look at the vacuum piece, some people like now it was in Frankfurt and I got feedback. Some people see it like, Oh my God, this is, this is so shocking. It's, it's so uh, I get claustrophobic. I have to think of when I was a child, often quite private stories also. So that's really bringing up their memories, what they feel if they had a stressful day, if they are not, yeah, the anxiety is already inside them, and then this will kind of maybe release it. And that could be a positive thing, or they feel even more anxious, I don't know. But let's hope it's more a release or.

[00:37:00] But for many other people, and that's would Maybe be more what I hope is that it is an image of somebody who's totally at peace who is really calm, breathing, changing slowly position and is floating in mid air and it's like an angel. And that will be people who are, maybe they made a nice walk to the museum and they had a nice day. And then, They are in a different state of mind compared to the first one.

[00:37:25] So I think the shrink itself has been exhibited in so many different contexts as well. In museums that last exhibition now was more about human evolution it's been exhibited more in about industrial waste or about consumer society or curators invite this project in very different contexts. And I think that's really good that a work can survive and can mean different things.

[00:37:54] Hmm, yeah, definitely.

[00:37:55] Definitely also over time, like the, this Nemo Observatorium,

[00:37:59] I think that's also an old work from 2000s. Yeah. Let's say when I made it, it was not about plastic waste at all. But now when I show it in social media, you have all these comments about the nanoplastics and plastic waste and. So things get a different meaning over time also, although the artist has not necessarily intended this.

[00:38:22] Do you have to be personally present when doing those workshops or when the work's getting installed?

[00:38:31] Ideally yes depends what you mean with ideally. I would say for the work itself? Yes. But as I said, I'm in the last years now. I'm trying to really transform my way of producing and exhibiting art in a more sustainable way. I live in the North of Norway, which is far away, it always requires flying. I'm trying to count my flights per year now and to find other ways of holding these workshops. Like yesterday, I had an online workshop with two people in Frankfurt that had to be trained, but they already had another person that I trained personally. So I was there a couple of weeks ago and, um, with certain installations, I tried to find ways to train people online or to at least combine, okay, I build up this exhibition, then I can continue to the next city instead of flying back and forth to Norway. And of course, it's, great to meet people at the opening and then to get in touch with the audience and also install the work in the best possible conditions. But I think we as artists also, or I at least want to really take responsibility and, and not only talk about climate change, but actually physically do something with how I, I work.

[00:39:50] What aboutt the shipping of the work itself? Have you taken any steps on your process in that?

[00:39:58] Yes, absolutely. So luckily all my works are stored in Belgium, which is really central in Europe. I don't have much things. Okay. There was now a project in China, but that was a very lightweight project, an inflatable that I shipped without flying myself. And um, The newer works, I really try to develop ideas in the sense that they can be made locally without shipping lots of material.

[00:40:25] For example, I only have to send the technical components that cannot be quickly made. And then the rest of the structure is uh, added by local aluminum profiles or just standard materials that you can find locally. And recently I'm also working more and more with nature materials.

[00:40:45] Like I have one project with dried plants that you can find local plants, dry them the year before.

[00:40:53] so yeah, it's definitely new ways of working that often also require more time. You can even save lots of money with it because there's less travel and airplanes and hotel. But it's requires often more time and that's something that some museums are totally into and others are like, Oh, we, we, we don't have time for this, it's a festival, we have to be efficient. So it's not always easy.

[00:41:15] Can you tell me what happens to the work after an exhibition ends?

[00:41:21] Then it goes to my storage in Belgium. And I am in Belgium couple of times a year to check things and yeah, I have some assistants who can, if necessary, also do certain things. But most I think, yeah, almost all installations are stored and kept in this in my warehouse. So they can, they can be exhibited 10 years later or the next month.

[00:41:48] And how do you approach the commercial aspect of your work? Do you sell the installations? Do you have some kind of smaller things that you produce? how does that work?

[00:42:01] I should, I know. I'm uh... luckily I'm not depending on making smaller things. Of course, if I would be smart, I could do that and I've done a couple of attempts in the past. But I think. It's not really my thing, so far it works without that. And um, it can be fun, I'm sure. There have been some smaller models maybe that are sold. Some smaller installations have been sold, but in general, I must say these big installations are rarely sold. And my income is mainly from, you know, when there's an exhibition, there's a artist fee

[00:42:38] And That's how. Also in Norway, we have, I mean, I know it's not the same in every country, but in Norway, there is a good support for arts. So it's possible to get funding. You don't always have to combine it with 4 other jobs to make ends meet. So I'm very grateful for that. And an important element is that an important part of my income comes from making scenography for theater that can also be the start of a new installation. And that means that it's the producer of the theater piece or the dance performance who applies for the money.

[00:43:14] I also work, that's more recent, maybe but I have some commissions for um, in Norway, if there's a new government building being built, there is a 1 percent of the budget that has to go to art by law.

[00:43:29] And that means that there's quite some commissions for arts. Of course, it's kind of limited in. things have to be very safe and shouldn't be too shocking or have to survive over many, many years, not just a one year exhibition or, but so

[00:43:43] that's for like outdoor public art projects, right?

[00:43:47] Quite a lot of indoor, actually. So, now, I just I'm finishing now a big project inside a new school that's has just opened and, yeah, that's a good good way of, of generating income. Yeah,

[00:43:59] Mm hmm. Okay.

[00:44:01] Not so much by selling really, but of course, anyway, that's a sale. Yeah, because they are owner of the work and they also take care of it. That's the big advantage of that part. Yeah.

[00:44:09] Yeah, that is, that is a big one where you can just not have to restore it or worry about it anymore yourself. Tell me what would you say has been the proudest moment of your career so far?

[00:44:27] I mean, I can mention one really nice experience was an exhibition in Sao Paulo. I don't think it's the proudest, but it was, you know, it was an exotic place. It was Huge. I mean, Sao Paulo is amazing. It's an incredible uh, millions of people. I'm not sure how many that was a solo exhibition. There was a nice cool festival there called FILE Festival Festival for Electronic Languages, which is mainly new media art, but parallel, which where I had exhibited before, and then they invited for a parallel solo exhibition in another location. That was a cool experience. Paola Perissinotto was the curator there. And then some works continue traveling to different cities in Brazil. like Rio and, and Brasilia uh, couple of more, yeah.

[00:45:19] Mm hmm. Have you ever had moments where you think, this is it, I've made it?

[00:45:25] Well, I, I think yeah, it makes me trigger something. I mean, I think right now, I, I feel um, definitely not made it as being a rich and famous and, and the super artist, or that's not really it. But I think as a human being, I, I feel really grateful that I can live from my passion and that I have a great family, live in a beautiful place, have a dog.

[00:45:51] I'm healthy so far, knock on wood, and I think that's more important than. I think, of course, when I was 35, I was probably more ambitious when, when will I have my solo exhibition at MoMA? I'm not saying no, if, if they invite me tomorrow but that's not what life is about really, I think

[00:46:11] So at what point do you know that you belong in the art world and have you ever felt close to that?

[00:46:19] Yeah. Maybe I, I remember when I was graduating as a student I did like a research study for my final project to New York that was super cool, discovering this fantastic city. And then I remember I was a student, I was of course working with art wanting to become an artist, I guess.

[00:46:39] But I wouldn't dare to say: I'm an artist. That was like a big step, I felt. And then in New York, everybody said, I'm an artist. Everybody was an artist. And I found that so funny. Like, I mean, what? Did he make big exhibitions? I mean, how can you call yourself an artist? What do you have to do to be able to be allowed to call yourself an artist?

[00:47:00] And I remember like the first time I had conversations, you meet somebody on the street, and this is a friend of, okay, what do you do? Yeah, I'm an artist. So I think that was like this uh, a step of course. But quite early, I mean it's in a way what I always worked with even before I graduated my, my studies.

[00:47:18] And belonging, yes. I think like for example, this community with the art collective in the swimming pool in Brussels that was really getting established in the art world. There was like a huge group of artists coming and going. It was like not a question of like, do I belong or not? was just the way it was. Yes, that's what I'm doing. So I guess I'm an artist.

[00:47:42] What's one piece of advice that you would give an emerging installation artist who's starting out today?

[00:47:50] yes, I had the same question when I was in Frankfurt From two young students. And then I said: take an internship. A school is of course important, but I think take an internship in a studio of people that you're inspired by, or even maybe that's not the main thing, but really get involved in the real work. See that it's not only discussing intellectual ideas, but it's also, carrying things around, cleaning up, making a budget, making planning, having meetings, being on time in the meetings, being sharp. there's many different aspects to the art world besides what we maybe think of.

[00:48:33] For example, my interview now, I'm happy to do this but this is really of part of the job also. It's not only drawing and then things are exhibited. That's one thing.

[00:48:45] I think also maybe people are often concerned about money. And I think for me, I'm sure I was lucky. I think you have to be lucky. That's definitely part of it. And that you cannot do so much about. But you can actually, to push luck, I would say, go and do volunteer work. In theatre, in the cinema, in a a museum, in a gallery. And then you meet people. Then you bump into this person, that person. And for me, that's a bit how it happened also.

[00:49:14] Then I suddenly, the scenographer needed help, he turned ill, I had to replace him, or I had to make certain parts, and then they said, well, actually, how much do you want for it? So don't only think of, how can I make money? I think it's first of all, how can I get connected? How can I meet people? Yeah. And I'm also talking to myself. I would say collaborating or connecting to other people is a very important thing.

[00:49:41] I love that. That's a great advice. So do you take interns in your studio?

[00:49:47] Yes, quite regularly. There's not like a big requirements at all. It's usually not paid though. But it's a really beautiful place to visit if you love nature. It's a smalll town. It's in the north of Norway. There's lots of mountains, skiing, whales, northern lights, midsummer sun, you name it. If you love nature, it's really cool, there's also a cool film festival.

[00:50:12] University, there's quite some students, art academy. And of course the studio is cool. It's quite varied projects, that really depends, from time to time. But things are really made, and I think the internships are really about things like you learn skills about mainly, let's say, metal working, construction work, welding, how to really make, so it's about using your hands, let's say.

[00:50:37] And course, we discuss things around the coffee table. It's a small studio. It's not like a team of 10 people. It's just me and the intern, maybe two. And occasionally for bigger projects there are other helpers coming, but, yeah, and it's from the people from Europe. They often have an Erasmus support to cover their room to pay their rent and uh, hotel. Norway is not cheap.

[00:51:00] do people approach you specifically to come and work with you? Or do you actually go around and look for volunteers and assistants?

[00:51:09] no, it's usually I get an email and if they are willing, I mean. It's not so much me selecting, it's, it's, I get an email and then we do a video call and if we agree on the terms, then they are welcome. and I think gradually I ended up in some lists in these different art schools and, uh, I think that's more how it works.

[00:51:31] I don't go actively to call for people, no.

[00:51:34] Okay.

[00:51:35] So if you want to come to Tromsø.

[00:51:38] I'm thinking about it. It's interesting. But any listener out here, if you want a nice experience in Norway, you know what to do.

[00:51:48] If you could wave a magic wand and do anything, anywhere, no budget limits, what is your dream project?

[00:51:55] Wow. Dream project. Huh. I mean, it's not something I've thought about, but the one thing that comes up now is uh... there is a, it's also an environmental project In the city where I live, it's Tromsø, it's on an island it's about 50, 000 people, but it's like a 10 kilometer long island in a fjord, so there's sea around and then more islands and mountains.

[00:52:19] And it's a lot about fishing and the marine culture is very important. But there is an enormous catastrophe going on. If you sea urchins, the round, beautiful red shells, with spikes that are laying along the shore in the sea, they are eating up all the seaweed. And now the sea gets a bit warmer, so they are exploding in millions and millions of the sea urchins, and they really eat up they call it the underwater forest, seaweed forest. And they say that this, this is actually more important than the Amazon forest when it comes to carbon storage and all this thing. So this is a big invisible thing happening because it's under the water. I mean, if there's a forest burning somewhere, we all see it, but this is happening underwater.

[00:53:07] And I've now been working with a marine biologist uh Delphin Ruché who's been, um, I have to cut this story a bit short now, but there's a big pier and on one side, they've been picking up all the sea urchins, the seaweed is growing back. It's a beautiful lush forest now with lots of fish and crabs and the life is turning back and it's so beautiful with underwater cameras that we made really beautiful images there. On the other side of the pier, which is a stone pier, they did nothing, it's 200 meters. The sea urchins have been grazing and eating up everything that can be eaten and it's a desert. And this is now something that's not really it's so I mean, the concept is so clear. It's like a 200 meter pier from the city center out into this ocean with the observatory in the end that I'm also working on now, but we want to make something that you can see this that you can Look underwater.

[00:54:05] And then, of course, we're there's different ways of we were thinking about making rafts that you could actually make this into a regular event with people that volunteers a community project that people come and join. You get a wetsuit and you go and dive. You have this underwater with snorkeling. It's beautiful. Beautiful things to see

[00:54:27] Mm hmm.

[00:54:27] and to make different ways of making this visible. And of course, helping the seaweed to grow back. And yeah, this is one project I'm thinking about, but that we don't have funding for it so far.

[00:54:40] Mm. So you basically want people to see what's going on underwater. To make it visible.

[00:54:48] Yes. And get involved into events where you join as volunteers. You join on this raft to go diving and to remove the sea urchins.

[00:54:57] Interesting.

[00:54:58] perform. It could, but I think you could. It, it's not only a functional thing, I think this is also a kind of an a performative event. Just like the seagulls breeding around these towers. It also becomes an event that you can go and watch for an hour or two while you have a picnic or. It's not... is it art? I'm not sure. It doesn't really matter for me, I think.

[00:55:20] So at the moment you're working on the Pigeon Hotels. Do you have anything else going on or coming up?

[00:55:29] Well, yes, I'm finishing this commission for the school, which is based on an older work polygon,

[00:55:34] which is a network of pipes like triangle or a network and net you can say of 12 by eight meter that's hanging from a thin steel wires and that can be manipulated in different angles. And for the school now it's a variation that instead of going up and down, It's imagine you have a sheet of paper and you crush it together and stretch it out again. So that's something that I installed a couple of weeks ago, but now I'm still working on the, the mechanism, the motors to, to activate these wires and make it actually move. Now it's hanging still.

[00:56:13] That's one project. And then the other one I'm preparing is actually on this pier but not the sea urchins, but at the end of the pier, there is an old, it's a really cool location. So imagine you go from the city center, 200 meter on a stone pier out into the sea. And at the end there is an old German bunker, which is just a block, basically a square block, 8 by 8 meter.

[00:56:35] And on top, there used to be a big cannon because you have a perfect overview over the fjord over the mountains and also the city. So when you're there on the roof, you have a really cool overview. Also, if you look back to the city and this was commissioned by the municipality who asked to develop this place into something to make an artwork originally. But my proposal was to make it into a observatory so the plan is to build a Glass dome.

[00:57:05] Mmm. Like an observatory with an old fashioned periscope you would say so the idea of replacing this cannon, which is not there anymore by a periscope. But let's say now we dropped the periscope, and it's just a glass dome. Because we are in the north of Norway, it's very exposed to serious wind. It's cold. It's snow. So you need shelter. But when you're behind glass, it's a really fantastic place to, to observe, to lay down under the stars and northern light. And then below, in the bunker itself, will be a cool um, small place, let's say for small exhibitions on, for example, the nature conservation projects like the sea urchins on the, the urban development that's going on.

[00:57:49] There's a huge old brewery that will be torn down there. This whole area is under development now in the next 10 years. So this will be an observation spot. So it's really about nature, urban development or architecture and of course art. So there can be more small exhibitions or activities there. And yes, I think this would be um, if I can have a magic wand, there we're also um... the budget is totally blown because it's a public space and, you know, we have to do all these safety things. Suddenly the municipality discovered it's not just an artwork. It's actually a public space and then you have to have fire regulations. You have to have safety for this and that. And so, yes, please magic wand, if you can help generate a budget for the dome.

[00:58:36] Yeah, it sounds like a great project. Hopefully it'll get all perfectly done and then one day I can come and check it out. So where could people see your work? And where can they find out more about what you do?

[00:58:54] Well, the website is one thing. I must say Instagram is more updated than the website.

[00:58:59] Mm hmm. what's your Instagram?

[00:59:02] Lawrencemalstaf. One F in one word. So there, I usually announce things. Then, Tallieu Art is my agent, she also has a website and announces my exhibitions. there are a couple of things, but then you have to come all the way to Norway, a kind of couple of permanent things. Now, November, December, I'm working on the production of this big hotel. So there's no more traveling, no more openings But the name of observatory will. Probably be in Czechia early next year. Shrink will definitely be a couple of locations. Maybe I shouldn't announce things that are, that are not really confirmed.

[00:59:42] Okay, so people should go on your Instagram to get the latest updates.

[00:59:49] Yes. And Tailleu Art which is also a website and an Instagram account.

[00:59:54] Okay, cool. All right, well, I will put all that in the show notes so people can easily find the links. Thank you very much, Lawrence, for taking the time to come and talk to the Installation Art Podcast. It's been a real pleasure.

[01:00:12] Thank you very much. It was my pleasure. Good luck with your projects as well, which we didn't talk about, but yeah.

[01:00:19] Nope,

[01:00:20] Another time. of the show.

[01:00:22] not the point. Okay, but good luck with the podcast and continuation.

[01:00:40] That was Lawrence Malstaf, based in Tromsø, Norway. You can find out more about his work on his website, lawrencemalstaf. com, and through his agent Tallieu Art Office on artoffice. be, and you should follow him on Instagram @lawrencemalstaf.

Links to those, as well as everyone else mentioned in this episode, are in the show notes and on our website. installationartpodcast. com.

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