Welcome to the Big Careers Small Children Podcast. My name is Ferena Hefti. I believe that no one should have to choose between becoming a CEO and enjoying their young children for much too long. Amazing people like I'm sure you listening right now have found themselves stuck on the career ladder when they have children and that leads to gender inequality in senior leadership because because those people don't progress to senior leadership and the same stale, often male, middle class people leading our organizations. We must change this together and I hope that many of you listening right now will progress to the most senior leadership roles that you like where you can make the decisions that make our world a better place. Outside of the podcast. I am the CEO and founder of the social enterprise Leaders Plus. We exist to help working parents progress their careers to senior leadership in a way that works for you and for your families. We have free events and resources on leadersplus.org where you can download helpful toolkits such as on returning from maternity leave, share parental leave, securing a promotion, dealing with workload challenges, or managing as a dual career couple. We also have an award winning fellowship community which is global for working parents who have big dreams for their careers but don't want to sacrifice their family. You'll join an absolutely wonderful group of people, a very tight knit, supportive group of parents who have your back together. You'll explore what your career aspirations are and you'll get advice from senior leaders who are also working parents about how to achieve those aspirations. You'll get new ideas to combine your hopes for your careers with your hope for your family. And you are supported by people who are experiencing what you're experiencing yourself. I'm really delighted that a larger majority of our fellows have made tangible changes following the program, be that becoming more senior in their roles, working shorter hours, having better flexible working arrangement. They always impress me so much with the courage that they instill in each other to do what is right for them without apologizing for having a family or apologizing for wanting that top job. Details are on leadersplus.org Fellowship. Without me noticing. The 200th episode has crept up on me and I'm delighted to say that my team have convinced me to do something a bit differently this time round. And Prachi, who does all the very important background work on the podcast and Helen have said that I should be interviewed, which I reluctantly agreed to. I hope it's a useful conversation. Helen asks me all about my journey around setting up leaders plus what I've learned along the way and also What I've Learned from interviewing 199 podcast guests. Enjoy the conversation.

Hello and welcome to this special edition of the Big Careers Small Children podcast. My name is Helen Fraser and I am programme and Impact Manager at Leaders Plus. I've been working at Leaders plus for almost three years now and it's been a real privilege to work alongside Verena as we work to support working parents to progress their careers. So, to mark the 200th episode and to start off Season 14, which is the C Suite series, I will be asking the questions today! And Verena, though I think many listeners will know who you are, I'm still going to ask you who is in your family and what do you do?

Well, so I have three children, a three year old, a six year old and an eight year old and a very lovely partner. And I run the Social Enterprise Leaders Plus, which is all about supporting parents to progress their careers. And I'm doing quite a bit of volunteering on the side as well. And I'm a friend and sister and daughter.

Fantastic. And as this is the 200th episode, I wanted to start by asking you, what would you say to the Verena that was just about to embark on her first podcast interview 200 episodes ago, from the perspective of now being sort of 200 and counting and a five star podcast, what would you say?

Well, be careful what you get started. I never thought so originally, I'll tell you the story how it started. So I was one of those parents who was quite silly in thinking, oh yeah, of course I can do work with a very newborn baby, absolutely no problem, and slightly sleep deprived, very hormonal. I went to a wonderful meeting with Ann Marie Archer and Jo Betterton at the NHS London Leadership Academy. And in that meeting I randomly came up with the idea of doing a podcast series of three episodes for leaders in the NHS of how they combine big career with small children, and asked, oh, could you maybe give me £300 to buy the equipment to do the recording? And yeah, so not thought it through, hadn't thought of this before the meeting. You know, my breasts were leaking and very sleep deprived. And so. And they said, to my surprise, yes, let's do it. And so I was like, okay, I have to actually do it now. And yeah, that's how it all started.

Great. And it just shows that sometimes just taking that brave leap can lead to really great things. And I know that from one part of my role is interviewing lots of our fellows and many of them mentioned the podcast. So I know that it does have a really great impact for people listening, especially helping them not to feel alone and taking lots of practical advice as well. And so, on that theme of starting things, why and how did you start Leaders plus?

Yeah, so I never saw myself or I didn't have a big plan to start Leaders Plus, but I was a regional director in the charity Teach first, and I was, you know, I had. It was at the time and I think still is now quite a supportive organization and a plan to go back to that, obviously a very safe salary and all that. But I had a bit of a culture shock when I had my first. I'm sure I told you this before many times, Helen, but when I had my first baby, I really did have a culture shock because I thought nothing would change. And on the whole, I don't think I massively changed, but how people responded to me really changed, or at least I felt it that way. And people really started talking to me quite differently about my future career. They seemed to assume that I was now going on what the Americans call the mummy track, and I wasn't interested in big project exciting things. And that was such a shock for me. And I really. It really shook me up quite badly. I. I just thought, oh, my goodness, what have I done? Have I ruined everything? And for someone who was and is very passionate about career, and for someone who's this part of a strong identity, that was really shocking. And I thought, obviously I was whining to my partner, as you do, and he said, well, you need to get yourself some role models. You know, there are people out there. And so I thought, okay, fine, I'm very good at organizing events. I do that quite easily. So I thought, why don't I try to find senior leaders who are inspirational, who show that actually you can still be a leader of your children and get them in front of me. Then I thought, all right, I don't have budgets for this, so I need to find someone to give me a free space. And I've wrote to a lot of the big companies saying, I have this idea. I want to get 60 leaders and 40 babies into a room and talk about career progression. Would you give me a space? And they say, oh, no insurance. I won't name names. But you can think of pretty much all the big companies who have famous names and an office in central London. I've written to them. They all said no or ignored me. And then again, actually, Dean suggested that I should speak to my local MP, which never crossed my mind. And I thought, oh, what a silly idea. But I did it anyways. And funnily enough, so she didn't have children, her name is Heidi Alexander, but she said, oh yeah, I'll support you, you can have a room in the House of Commons. So that was really lovely. And then I did not know any role models, of course, of senior leaders or young children. So I just went on Twitter, tried to stalk people, and to my surprise, I asked quite a few, some really inspirational people said yes. So Geraldine Strasti, I think cbe, so really senior person, one of the most senior people in psychiatry in the whole of the United Kingdom, had said yes and was very inspirational. Karen Blackett, who was the CEO and then chairwoman of Mediacom, again said yes. And I had, I think at the time also I didn't have any mummy sounds like a terrible life, but I didn't have any mommy friends because I thought instead of going to an NCT class, my partner and I decided that he would go to a dads only class and I would attend the NHS class. But as a result, I didn't have mummy friends yet. And yeah, so I just told some of my few really lovely mummy friends, including Bea Stevenson, who does have a lot of mummy friends, who then sent a WhatsApp to all her friends or whatever it was at the time. And that's how we ended up. So we ended up filling a room of 60 and we did have lots of babies there. Sorry, I'm rambling on a little bit. I hate it when podcast guys do that. But for me personally, that's where the need started. And then when I realized after the event, which was very inspirational, I noticed that there was need to do more because all those people were now inspired. But actually they needed support, they needed mentorship, they needed support on how to deal with those conversations of how you set boundaries but still be invited to the big ticket conversations. How you make sure that you're picked for promotion, that people are actively thinking of you, how you make sure that when you apply to full time role, you negotiate that to be four days a week, if that's what you want, and how you make sure that you have the confidence to do it your own way, even if all your aunties and uncles and people at work say, well, actually no, you should either go full time, otherwise you never progress, or why are you such an evil person to keep working? So because of that, I then founded Social Enterprise Leaders plus and I was very lucky to get support from the Society for the Arts and Commerce and also Cambridge Social Ventures. And yeah, that was the start of it and then now seven years on, it's become also, thanks to your help, Helen, a really impact driven organization with quite a serious demand for change. In that we take people who are parents but who want to progress and we really, it's almost like injecting them with the network, the support, the access to opportunities to insights that help them to do it their way. Also connect them with other people who are like minded.

Yeah. And it's incredible. I hope you're very proud when you look back to that first event in the House of Commons and I think shows so much courage that we ask all of our Leaders plus community to have and you definitely are a shining example of that. And as you said, Leaders plus was grown and you actually received an MBE for your work with Leaders plus. And how did that make you feel? Was that something you expected or was it one of those oh moments?

It was really funny. Again, I think I've told you this story before. I was checking my emails and I got a message saying you need to provide your details because you will receive an MBE and you have to complete your address and whatnot. And I didn't think anything to it because I thought this is obvious spam. It was during the pandemic. So it wasn't a written letter, it was an email. And I mentioned it in passing to Dean again, I should make him a listen to this podcast episode so he feels appreciated. But yeah, he said, oh, you know, why don't you call the Cabinet Office up and see if it's real. Okay then I'll do that. And it turned out yes, it was real and I still made them really make. You know, I tried to my best not to give away personal.

You're probably too careful.

But yeah, absolutely. And yeah, it was. I mean to be honest, I felt like I didn't deserve it, but I still. Which is probably not the inspirational message you wanted to hear from someone who all advocates with speaking. But I think it just showed like that was my initial reaction. But then I thought, well actually probably a lot of people in my situation would feel that. And if you were part of an all boys network and for years and decades you've been told you're brilliant, then you probably wouldn't feel that. So I thought okay, I'll just ignore that. And I was thinking about accepting it just a little bit on the back of it obviously does say British Empire and they're all sorts of colonial associations with it. But then I thought about the good I can do with it and it really does open doors because people respond to your emails a little bit more. They think you're a different, you know, you're a very worthy person, which obviously there's absolutely no difference to me before and after MBE, but it does have an impact, so that's why I took it and.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And have you always been driven by a strong sense of purpose and making an impact?

Yeah, I think so. I've. My parents are very. They're both GPs and they've been very active in their local village. So I've been always raised with like, making differences part of what you should do. During the Christmas event period, we had to, I think, give up sweets to get money for giving to charity and all sorts of, like, trying to brainwash us into doing good, which has worked. And I am passionate about all sorts of social justice causes. So I used to work for Teach first, which is all about education, social justice. I volunteered with Refugees at Home, which is about integrated refugees. We used to host homeless young people with Night Stop in our house. So those wanting to make a difference was always part of what I do. And I think you and I, we both know we could spend our time in much easier ways and probably earn a much higher salary, but to me it's absolutely. I shouldn't say this to my direct report, but yeah, yeah.

So, yeah, I think, I mean, I know that for me, nothing fills me up more, you know, work wise than going into those Leaders plus sessions and hearing our fellows stories and the actions they've taken and the impact the programme has had. It's always a really fills you up and I just wondered whether there were sort of any moments for you that really stick with you, of those kind of impact stories?

Yeah, I think so. Every time I join one of the sessions that we run and we ask the fellows what actions they've taken, that always really, your language fills me up. That's exactly how I feel. But I can think of one person who. So at the moment we really track who has taken action. So this sounds Machiavellian, but we are, because we know it's the implementation of the things that we teach that that's what makes a difference. We really track, we encourage, we ensure that people, we provide the support so people can make the change that they're. Why they're joining the fellowship. At the time, we didn't at the very beginning, and I was absolutely blown away by one lady who worked for an energy company and who just went away and asked her boss for a pay rise and a promotion during Maternity leave. And she said, I would have never done that without Leaders Plus. And to me at the time, I was. Now my children are much older, but at the time I was still quite a young mother. That was such a powerful. It really made me so happy to see how there was this tangible impact. And to be honest, that also helped me to keep going and make into a really high impact, highly respected program.

Yeah, absolutely. I think, I mean, you know, there's a whole spectrum, isn't there, of impact that we see. And it is always a real privilege to hear about it. And especially when people say that line of, I wouldn't have done that without the Leaders plus fellowship, I think is so painful.

What about you, Helena? I've never asked you, actually.

I think, like you say, every time we get to be at a session, you know, which is a big part of my role, which I'm very, very happy about, and going around the room and I think actually something seems quite small that happened just before Christmas with one of our NHS sessions. And one of the fellows said that the action she'd taken was to email her line manager with all the dates of her Christmas obligations and nativities that she had for her children and to just give notice that she wouldn't be able to be in on those days. And she said, you know, without the program, I wouldn't have done that. I would have left it to the last minute and I would have felt really guilty and then I would have. And I, for me, I just thought, oh, it's just. It's so great that it's empowering, you know, someone to do that and then have that, you know, we know is not always a special experience, going to nativity, depending on your school. But I think on the whole, that special moment and knowing that you can be there without any of the kind of guilt and worry, and I think that as well, was a really powerful moment, I felt.

Yeah. Especially in the NHS context, that's not a done thing at all. And you have, I think a lot of our fellows, they have to be pioneers in some shape or form. They might be the first one having those negotiations, being the first one at certain levels of seniority.

Yeah, definitely. And I think hearing people are doing it and knowing that, I think just having that sense of change, I think is just such a positive thing to have it have in our lives. And you kind of touched on then what kind of maybe gets you through the tough times. And I know that, you know, like you say you're a mum of three, you're running a social Enterprise. There are difficult times. I know. And I just wondered, you know, what keeps you going in those moments.

Yeah. So I actually really enjoyed when we did. Do you remember, I think it was just before Christmas when we had the senior director CEO fireside chat and we had a group of CEOs sharing. And that was so powerful for me personally. And what one of them shared was that when you run, you know, when the buck stops with you in an organization, there will always be time where you just have to step in. And usually you can manage your work life balance really well in a senior role, which is true. But when things hit the fan, that's when you need to step in. So for me, what actually helps me. I'm sure you were hoping for an inspirational story here, but sorry, what helps me is just to accept that yes, it Sadly, if there's a problem with our VAT reporting that we need to sort out and we need to spend ages in spreadsheets to make sure everything is correct. And that involves my time despite the best delegation. Just because it does, that is just okay. And that is part of it. And I'm not expecting eternal happiness and inspiration. And then I think on the flip side of it, I do really crave. And that's why I keep saying to you I want to be at the fellow sessions. I want. Because that is what keeps me going. Honestly, I need to see people and I need to see people and hearing about the impact, otherwise I will definitely lose motivation. And then I think the other thing that keeps me going is learning. I really love learning and challenging myself. So last, just before Christmas, I set up this AI learning group which was so much fun with a group of fellows and mentors. And I just as I came here, I know it's very random, but it gave me so much energy, I had so much fun.

I mean, I know you love AI. I do now as a result of that group. You know, it's great that aspect of always learning. And practically speaking, when you know, things are on a fairly even keel, how do you manage those boundaries? Because you know, I have to say, working within our team, I think it's. You're a great example and it's funny, but I will often think to myself, you know, Verena's done that, then it's okay for me to do that. And I think you do do that really well. Whether or not you're really doing it, you. You sort of set the example really well. But what would you say that you do?

I'm laughing because I'm Hearing my children now running through. And this might be very much an example of where they're coming home from school with that. And we might not have a boundary here because they have spotted. Just going to make sure. So listeners, I'm going to have to make sure the door is closed. So nobody knows.

Boundary setting in action.

But I think there's something also about sometimes breaking your boundaries. So I find it very cathartic sometimes to work a few hours in an evening just to work through something and get a report Right. And so on. I don't do it often, but I do sometimes allow myself. I don't feel like I need to stick to it all the time. But generally I do not work after hours. I might be on my phone and looked at, especially if my children misbehave. I might actually use LinkedIn as a bit of a cause are, you know, like other people use Facebook and look at that. And I might think of something work related. But generally it is for me, it's been a habit and I had to learn it the hard way. I used to think that I'm better at my job if I work very long hours, and that was even before I had children. But then I got some tough feedback saying, actually, you're working really long hours. You're setting a bad example. You're not adding more volume in those hours. And I didn't listen to that. And I really dialed it back. Yeah, yeah, I think that helped. And just having children helps. I mean, that's the other thing in terms of setting boundaries I used to try to have. So we recruit senior leader mentors, and you do that now brilliantly. And so we have interviews with them and they're busy people. So I used to have a call with them on a day where I don't work. It always went terribly wrong every single time. My children would be very well behaved all day. They would choose that half an hour to have a screaming fit. So, yeah, I just learned it's not. It doesn't work. Yeah.

And I think that shows, you know, what we say a lot on the fellowship as well is finding what works for you. And I actually remember my first kind of cohort onboarding and you said to me, helen, I won't be impressed if by the end of this you're absolutely exhausted. And you, you know, you just have worked so hard to get all these interviews done and everything that won't impress me. You need to manage your diary and tell me if you're not able to do it. And that was quite a learning thing for me because I think before, like you say, you kind of think, oh, if I get all of this done, I'm going to be praised. But you were like, no, not if it's at the expense of you being exhausted because actually you won't do the best job you can with that. And it really stuck with me. And also on that note, I think doing what's right for the individual is such a theme of the fellowship that we're always, you know, the diversity in the room is always really interesting as well because people are finding their own way. And you know, sometimes I do like to log on on a Sunday if I've been on leave because actually I can then enjoy the rest of my afternoon not guessing what might have come in, but knowing and. But for some people, they like to go right to the end of their leave. And so I think it is really a really important point about, you know, finding your own boundaries and what is right for you. And what would you say is the biggest change you've seen? Sort of from starting Leaders plus to now? We're all about driving change and it's small steps for sure. But is there something different you feel.

In the wider environment, I'm noticing that people talk about career progression for parents and I really think we've made a significant contribution to that because when I started Leaders plus the maternity coaches all talked about boundaries and work life balance, which are important and good topics. But nobody was brave enough to say, well, actually working parents deserve to progress their careers even if they do want to be there for their children. And I think that has definitely changed. I've also seen a very welcome focus on data and looking. Actually, is an intervention making a difference or is it just making people feel good? And our partners, I think are really good because they are interested in what is the work that we're doing together. Making a real change in terms of number of people promoted, number of people staying with the organization, impact on well being. And I think that's quite exciting for both of us, isn't it? To really make a difference on actually real people's lives and not just hot air, blah, blah.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And what would you say you're proudest of?

I think I'm proudest that if I was hit up by a bus or something like that or something more joyful that it would, I think, I think it would continue. And I think that's a really, that's a really hard thing to achieve. Very often an organization could become very dependent. And I'm sure, it's still more dependent than I would like it to be on me, but I think that's something I'm proud of. And I'm also proud that I've changed my own ways of working. I've really challenged myself. I've always had coaching. I've been part of the Help to Grow program from Brunel University. I've been supported by the University Social Ventures program and I'm really proud that I continue to learn and stretch myself. I always think I can do more definitely. But I'm quite proud that I'm definitely not the same leader as I was a year ago. I think anyways, you might, you can tell me off the record afterwards if you disagree, but that's my thinking

Definitely, and I think, you know, Leaders plus is testament to that because we never stop, you know, we're always looking and that's, you know, how can we make a bigger impact? How can we reach more people, how can we, you know, refine the program to make sure that, you know, it's having a deeper impact? And that's definitely testament.

I don't think I'm proud as an individual but I think I'm proud of us as a team of really stretching ourselves and making sure that we did the research work. The career progression caps really shape employers views of what the data of what working parents experience, why they say workload is a massive issue, how actually most of them do want to progress but only 30% say they can do it with their employer. I think that's really exciting. It's super exciting that we worked with HSBC to support them, to understand their internal working parents experience and supporting them through that research to actually that that was really exciting and I think I can't say too much detail but the reason why that was exciting is because that involved having lots of really brave and ambitious conversations and it had a real impact on the frontline. And then I'm really excited about the senior directors group that we've just had. I mean personally I just get a lot from it because I'm at that career stage. The other CEOs and senior directors are as well. I'm enjoying it but I'm also really proud that we are making a difference to that group, that level of seniority. And we're recording this in two days. We're going to have our first face to face session with our future leaders. So people who haven't got a career progression yet who perhaps feel they want to now start taking off in their career, yeah, that would be Exciting.

Yeah, I'm really excited about that and I think that's what's definitely since in my time at Leaders Plus, I love that we are kind of branching out to offer something to everybody, you know, no matter what sort of stage they are at. So I think that is really exciting that we're starting that on Wednesday. And can I ask you, what do your children think of your work?

Well, they think it's boring, honestly. They've said. My 8 year old has said that because they think it involves sitting in front of the computer.

Yes.

I don't think they understand and I'm probably bad at communicating it to them. I don't think they understand the need for our work, but maybe. Exactly. But I'm really proud that they understand sexism. So even my 8 year old will pick things from a book and say, mommy isn't this sexist. So something must have seeped through. What they really appreciate is that I sometimes bring back biscuits from our face to face events because they're left over and we don't want to waste the social enterprise resources and they really appreciate that. So they, they think mummy's work involves sitting in front of a computer and eating biscuits.

Yeah, perfect. I just share my daughter, my children older than yours and we were watching a TV program in which there was a mum who was - It's Modern Family, it's quite old now, so it's a bit dated but we're kind of re watching it with them and there was a part where the mum in one of the families was, you know, talking about how she given up her career to be a mum. And my daughter Hazel said to me, oh mum, that's why your organization exists. And it was just such a lovely moment. Like I was just like, oh, they do listen to me, they do understand. And yeah, that was a lovely moment.

Oh, that's very sweet.

Yes, really was. And we hear a lot. Like you said, we have senior leader mentors that is such a privilege to hear their thoughts on combining ambitious careers and senior careers with parenting and our fellows as well. But I just wondered, what advice would you share with your best friend about combining an ambitious career with family life? They were just about to embark on it.

Yeah, I was actually in that situation recently and it was someone in academia, which is a particularly challenging field because of the level of insecurity, a job insecurity. And I think the most, again you're probably hoping me that I will be very inspirational and I will not be, but I think I just said to her, like, it is Hard. It's not easy, but there are plenty of people that are able to do it. And if you want to do it, you probably want to do it for the right reasons, because you want to make a difference, because you have something to add. And that's an absolutely okay ambition to have. And if you are doing it despite it being hard, you're going to be part of the community of making it easier for future generations. I also direct her to the podcast, and I think that that is something that has really changed for me as a result of the podcast, because I get to interview so many amazing senior leaders and the whole point so many of them make that they still experience guilt, and that's okay. They keep going regardless. They still have the imposter syndrome, but they keep going regardless. And they still are questioning sometimes whether they're not doing right by their children. But then when I interview the older podcast guests who are towards the end of their careers, every single one, without exception, tell me that actually it is entirely, you know, the children are entirely delighted with their careers. They never once thought that they would. They suffered. They're very proud. And for me, that's such a big, important message that. And I think that has changed for me as a result of all these interviews that our life is hopefully long and things are going to change. And how you see your situation today might be quite different from how you see it. They are also all the podcast guests, even the ones with kids in their 20s and 30s, they say, I still worry so much about them, so maybe that will never go away.

Yeah, I think it's just we have these conversations all the time. It just changes, doesn't it? Like, it's, you know, they're very different stages, how you. When your children are growing up. But, you know, my mum says to me, you know, she still worries about me, and I've got my own children, and it's just. I think it's just different. And, you know, it affects your career maybe differently, but it's, you know, being a parent and having a career, like you said, it is hard, but it is also, if it's right for you, it is the right thing to do. And like you said, it is hopefully making that easier for, you know, our children. And that's what I mean when I say maybe I hope the children never do have to understand what you do, because they won't embrace a world in which they have quite so many.

Yeah. And I think it's even more important now than ever that we do become this counter movement because we're recording this just after the weekend where Mark Zuckerberg announced that they're going to scrap the DEI in Meta. The agenda pay gap, according to the WEF, still would take more than 130 years to close and so on and so forth. So I think through living our lives differently and saying, well, actually, no, we do want to have roles with power and we do want to have children. I think even though it's hard, it's really important to do that.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I don't mean this question to sound sort of morbid, but what do you. Would you like to be remembered for? What do you hope people remember about you?

Well, I'm really hoping this is not. I wonder how long this is going to live. Hopefully nobody's going to play this at my funeral. Yeah. Now I feel very raw, but thanks, Helen.

Yeah, sorry, that was a bit of a downer.

Let's end on a downer. Good idea. Hopefully that I was someone kind who cared about the people in my life and that I acted with integrity and even when making tough decisions, did that with the back of respect for other people and that I continued stretching and learning and making a difference. Yeah. And it would be lovely to have new ideas that we've implemented that are like, shaping and have been absorbed into the fabric like that focus on career progression for working parents. But hopefully some of our new work as well, like the work that we do together online might.

Yeah, absolutely. Finally, then, if you think back to Verena in, I think 2017 was it when Leaders plus began. You're about to embark on this journey. What would you tell her?

Just not to worry too much and just get on with it. I would say not to overthink things and just do it.

Yeah.

Great.

Well, thank you so much. It has been really lovely to talk to you about Leaders plus and your own journey. And I really hope our listeners have enjoyed a little insight into your experiences of setting up Leaders plus and your family life as well.

Thank you. And thank you for making it comfortable. I was very nervous and at first a bit resistant, but because our wonderful new team member Prachi made this as one of her first suggestions, I thought, oh, no, I can't say no to one of her first ideas. So here we are. But thank you to you, Helen, and to Prachi for making us do this. I really enjoyed the conversation with you.

Me too. Me too. Thank you.

I really appreciate you listening.

Thank you so much.

And I always love to hear from our listeners. If you want to connect with me on LinkedIn. Just go to Ferena Hefti and I'll be delighted to hear your feedback and.

Your suggestions or just have you say hi.

Likewise, if you do feel passionately about gender equality and you want to support a female led podcast, then please do leave a review and share it with a friend. Just because at the moment, podcasting is still a very, very male dominated environment. Most of the top charging podcasts are led by men. I really love all the people who've joined from the podcast, our fellowship program, and if you want to do the same, then please head over to LeadersPlus.org/fellowship in order to get access to a community of support to help you combine an ambitious career with young children together with people who have your back. See you next week.