1 00:00:04,444 --> 00:00:08,014 Eddie: Welcome to episode 26 of the web joy podcast. 2 00:00:08,284 --> 00:00:09,394 I'm your host, Eddie. 3 00:00:09,814 --> 00:00:13,744 And in this podcast, we interview guests about their origin story and 4 00:00:13,744 --> 00:00:17,794 what makes them excited and joyful to be part of the tech community. 5 00:00:18,154 --> 00:00:19,954 I hope you enjoy today's episode. 6 00:00:20,494 --> 00:00:21,424 I think you're ready. 7 00:00:21,754 --> 00:00:22,804 With April Balor. 8 00:00:23,948 --> 00:00:25,688 April, thank you for joining us today. 9 00:00:25,748 --> 00:00:29,648 I'm excited to have you on the Web Joy podcast. 10 00:00:30,068 --> 00:00:30,428 Yeah. 11 00:00:30,428 --> 00:00:35,618 Just kinda to get started, why don't you tell everyone who you are, what you 12 00:00:35,618 --> 00:00:37,488 do, where you work, you know, just a. 13 00:00:38,063 --> 00:00:40,163 Brief intro about yourself, if you will. 14 00:00:40,433 --> 00:00:41,093 April: Absolutely. 15 00:00:41,093 --> 00:00:41,933 Thanks for having me. 16 00:00:42,233 --> 00:00:43,133 I'm excited to be here. 17 00:00:44,543 --> 00:00:48,773 . . My name is April and I currently work as a developer for web Password, 18 00:00:49,043 --> 00:00:54,893 working primarily on the web application version of our projects, and I do a 19 00:00:54,893 --> 00:00:58,043 lot of front end work, little bit of backend, but mostly, mostly the front. 20 00:00:59,363 --> 00:00:59,993 Eddie: That's cool. 21 00:00:59,993 --> 00:01:03,413 I guess what's a, a short version of your story, right? 22 00:01:03,413 --> 00:01:05,663 How did you come to get involved in tech? 23 00:01:05,873 --> 00:01:10,313 April: Yeah, so I always liken it to me, kind of always searching for 24 00:01:10,313 --> 00:01:14,783 what do I wanna be when I grow up and at some point I became a mother. 25 00:01:14,783 --> 00:01:19,493 And, um, as our circumstances I was privileged enough to be able to stay home 26 00:01:19,493 --> 00:01:22,043 with my children for the formative years. 27 00:01:22,103 --> 00:01:24,268 And then once they went, I have three. 28 00:01:24,508 --> 00:01:27,928 When they all went into school, I started working part-time and 29 00:01:27,928 --> 00:01:31,198 then I realized that I just wasn't satisfied with what I was doing. 30 00:01:31,198 --> 00:01:35,848 It was just not very fulfilling, and so I didn't wanna move that into full-time. 31 00:01:35,938 --> 00:01:39,178 So somewhere along the line, my daughter, when she hit high school, 32 00:01:39,178 --> 00:01:43,288 started looking at what she wanted to study in college and different careers 33 00:01:43,288 --> 00:01:45,598 and our things, and we came across. 34 00:01:46,458 --> 00:01:50,058 Or, uh, I guess computer science and, and development in general. 35 00:01:50,148 --> 00:01:52,308 It fits her personality really, really well. 36 00:01:52,308 --> 00:01:56,258 And as I was going through and marking all the boxes, I went, wait a minute. 37 00:01:56,843 --> 00:01:58,853 Those mark all of my boxes too. 38 00:02:01,343 --> 00:02:01,643 . Eddie: I 39 00:02:01,643 --> 00:02:03,653 April: like to solve problems. 40 00:02:03,653 --> 00:02:05,363 I like to be creative. 41 00:02:05,543 --> 00:02:11,843 I like structured context to work in , and so I started just kind of 42 00:02:11,843 --> 00:02:15,533 playing around with some online free courses and then stepped that up to 43 00:02:15,563 --> 00:02:21,083 some online paid courses and one led to another, which led to the ability 44 00:02:21,083 --> 00:02:24,593 to be involved in an internship, which led to me being employed. 45 00:02:24,593 --> 00:02:25,403 So here I. 46 00:02:26,748 --> 00:02:28,428 Eddie: Well, that's really interesting. 47 00:02:28,518 --> 00:02:31,758 I love the fact that you were helping your daughter figure out 48 00:02:31,758 --> 00:02:35,958 what she wanted to do, and it's not like she was like, oh, that's dumb. 49 00:02:36,318 --> 00:02:37,938 And you were like, oh, that's interesting. 50 00:02:38,088 --> 00:02:38,598 That's great. 51 00:02:38,598 --> 00:02:41,298 You both actually found an interest in it. 52 00:02:41,298 --> 00:02:45,708 Did you all get to like, Do any kind of studying together or anything like that? 53 00:02:45,798 --> 00:02:46,338 April: We didn't. 54 00:02:46,338 --> 00:02:49,968 That's where the mother daughter can, you know, relationship stepped in. 55 00:02:50,058 --> 00:02:51,318 It was like, fair enough. 56 00:02:51,318 --> 00:02:52,668 That's cool that you're doing that 57 00:02:54,678 --> 00:02:56,388 . Eddie: Why are you trying to copy me, mom? 58 00:02:56,393 --> 00:02:56,738 Yeah. 59 00:02:56,988 --> 00:02:57,378 Yeah. 60 00:02:57,648 --> 00:02:58,638 But what was, what's 61 00:02:58,638 --> 00:03:02,963 April: really funny is, I got my first job offer two weeks after 62 00:03:02,963 --> 00:03:06,233 she got her first internship offer, which ultimately became her job. 63 00:03:06,233 --> 00:03:08,263 So now we both still work in the industry. 64 00:03:09,653 --> 00:03:11,093 . Eddie: Well, hey, that is really cool. 65 00:03:11,183 --> 00:03:11,783 No, definitely. 66 00:03:11,783 --> 00:03:14,663 As, as someone who has been a child and has someone who has 67 00:03:14,668 --> 00:03:16,283 a child, I totally understand. 68 00:03:16,883 --> 00:03:19,073 Kids don't always want their, their parents following them. 69 00:03:19,943 --> 00:03:20,243 . April: Yeah. 70 00:03:20,303 --> 00:03:24,083 We still don't talk too much about work even now, uh, more than just. 71 00:03:24,803 --> 00:03:26,663 We can understand when we're venting. 72 00:03:26,663 --> 00:03:29,483 Like the, ah, it takes forever to get my code review. 73 00:03:29,483 --> 00:03:30,323 It's like she gets it. 74 00:03:30,383 --> 00:03:32,873 But other than that, it's really dive into 75 00:03:32,873 --> 00:03:36,953 Eddie: details, Well, hey, that, that is pretty cool because as far 76 00:03:36,953 --> 00:03:39,773 as me, like no one in my family Yeah. 77 00:03:39,773 --> 00:03:41,243 Has anything to do with tech. 78 00:03:41,243 --> 00:03:45,203 And so yeah, oftentimes you're like, oh my gosh, this bug thing 79 00:03:45,203 --> 00:03:46,703 can take forever to figure out. 80 00:03:46,703 --> 00:03:49,073 And no one can understand that. 81 00:03:49,303 --> 00:03:52,063 Frustration and yet also joy at the same time. 82 00:03:52,243 --> 00:03:52,363 Yes. 83 00:03:52,363 --> 00:03:53,593 So that's great. 84 00:03:53,923 --> 00:03:56,683 You have someone , it's, 85 00:03:56,683 --> 00:03:57,703 April: it's funny you say that. 86 00:03:57,703 --> 00:04:04,633 My husband constantly comments on like, you cost so much , don't understand 87 00:04:04,633 --> 00:04:06,223 why you say you love this job. 88 00:04:06,223 --> 00:04:08,143 I'm like, I can't explain it. 89 00:04:08,143 --> 00:04:08,683 I can't. 90 00:04:08,773 --> 00:04:09,733 It just is. 91 00:04:09,733 --> 00:04:11,263 And yes, I do curse a lot. 92 00:04:14,123 --> 00:04:17,243 I, I'm a mask that way, I guess , but I do love it. 93 00:04:18,653 --> 00:04:21,803 . Eddie: Well, we face these frustrations while programming, right? 94 00:04:21,803 --> 00:04:23,873 And like, I guess, what is it that. 95 00:04:24,323 --> 00:04:26,993 Gets you excited about working as a software engineer, right? 96 00:04:26,993 --> 00:04:30,203 What helps kind of push you over those frustrating points to kind 97 00:04:30,203 --> 00:04:32,243 of keep you engaged and excited? 98 00:04:32,483 --> 00:04:34,373 April: I really do love the creative aspects. 99 00:04:34,373 --> 00:04:37,043 Again, I do a lot of front end stuff, so there's a, you know, and, 100 00:04:37,043 --> 00:04:40,673 and I think there's creativity on, on all sides of the code base, but 101 00:04:40,733 --> 00:04:42,803 in particular, it's just kind of a. 102 00:04:43,323 --> 00:04:48,043 A fun thing to just take a blank white page and make it this like 103 00:04:48,343 --> 00:04:50,533 designed, beautiful theme, you know? 104 00:04:50,713 --> 00:04:53,653 And to do that with code is, I don't know, it's fun. 105 00:04:53,683 --> 00:04:59,923 I like it . And then I, I am at my heart, I'm a problem solver. 106 00:04:59,983 --> 00:05:06,343 Like I gravitate towards like puzzle things, puzzle games, the strategy thing. 107 00:05:06,343 --> 00:05:10,433 You know, that's just, Where my brain loves to be, I guess. 108 00:05:10,673 --> 00:05:14,273 So yeah, digging in and finding that semicolon. 109 00:05:14,273 --> 00:05:17,513 As frustrating as it is , like the joy of finding it is 110 00:05:17,693 --> 00:05:19,523 just fills me in a weird way. 111 00:05:21,593 --> 00:05:23,303 Eddie: It's that needle in a haystack, right? 112 00:05:23,303 --> 00:05:24,953 And it's like you, yeah, you found it. 113 00:05:25,013 --> 00:05:27,533 You may have dug through a lot of hay, but there it was. 114 00:05:28,353 --> 00:05:31,253 April: It's the determination of just knowing there's a solution, 115 00:05:31,258 --> 00:05:32,613 like there is a solution. 116 00:05:32,853 --> 00:05:33,013 Hmm. 117 00:05:33,093 --> 00:05:35,583 And is my first go at it gonna be the prettiest? 118 00:05:36,093 --> 00:05:38,213 Probably not, but there's gonna be a solution. 119 00:05:38,223 --> 00:05:42,603 And then from there I can refine it and then just, I don't know, believing 120 00:05:42,603 --> 00:05:45,213 in that there is a solution to find. 121 00:05:45,213 --> 00:05:46,293 I just have to keep 122 00:05:46,293 --> 00:05:46,733 Eddie: digging. 123 00:05:49,193 --> 00:05:51,723 April: And I'm sure these are probably, I'm gonna come across for that. 124 00:05:51,963 --> 00:05:53,043 That proves to be false. 125 00:05:53,043 --> 00:05:54,513 But thus far I have not. 126 00:05:54,743 --> 00:05:55,093 So 127 00:05:56,203 --> 00:05:56,693 , Eddie: I love. 128 00:05:57,173 --> 00:06:01,223 I think as you said, right, there's creativity and there's problem solving 129 00:06:01,223 --> 00:06:05,183 for anyone who's a software engineer, I mean really anyone who's in tech, right? 130 00:06:05,183 --> 00:06:08,903 Even design like you have a problem of how do you help a user do this 131 00:06:08,903 --> 00:06:12,353 and you know, you solve it through interaction patterns and stuff. 132 00:06:12,848 --> 00:06:17,618 Marketing, like how do we solve the issue of making someone buy this thing? 133 00:06:18,278 --> 00:06:23,768 But I also think, like you said, for front end, it's people who, with the front 134 00:06:23,768 --> 00:06:26,588 end to solve visual problems in a way. 135 00:06:26,618 --> 00:06:26,858 Yeah. 136 00:06:27,038 --> 00:06:29,078 And that's definitely, I, I've spent. 137 00:06:29,368 --> 00:06:30,778 a lot of time in front end. 138 00:06:30,898 --> 00:06:34,648 That's definitely, I, I like solving, of course, some code problems, but 139 00:06:34,653 --> 00:06:37,798 I also love solving visual problems too, and making things look, 140 00:06:37,918 --> 00:06:39,568 look fun and pretty and engaging. 141 00:06:39,678 --> 00:06:40,078 Yeah. 142 00:06:40,408 --> 00:06:41,398 April: Yeah, it's just, it's 143 00:06:41,398 --> 00:06:41,608 Eddie: fun. 144 00:06:42,898 --> 00:06:45,358 , you know, on this podcast it's web joy. 145 00:06:45,358 --> 00:06:50,338 We like to talk about things that bring us joy in the tech industry, and so I just 146 00:06:50,338 --> 00:06:54,073 kind of wanted to say, Hey, , what is it that brings you join the tech industry? 147 00:06:54,223 --> 00:06:54,403 Uh, you 148 00:06:54,403 --> 00:06:57,703 April: know, I just, I really love the elements of camaraderie 149 00:06:57,703 --> 00:06:59,293 that exists in the tech industry. 150 00:06:59,683 --> 00:07:04,153 I spent a good portion of the first couple of years dabbling, trying to learn 151 00:07:04,153 --> 00:07:08,893 code, feeling like I couldn't, I couldn't share that skill with others because 152 00:07:08,893 --> 00:07:12,583 they were gonna see that I was just an idiot, didn't know what I was doing. 153 00:07:12,733 --> 00:07:16,123 And so I did it alone and independent and on my own. 154 00:07:16,768 --> 00:07:19,618 Really had no gauge of where I was at. 155 00:07:19,618 --> 00:07:23,038 And as we all know, we never give ourselves enough credit for what 156 00:07:23,038 --> 00:07:25,398 we know . Absolutely, absolutely. 157 00:07:25,708 --> 00:07:29,368 But as I was going through the journey and in particular as I started to delve 158 00:07:29,368 --> 00:07:33,238 into, you know, more of like the paid guided courses, you know, there was this 159 00:07:33,238 --> 00:07:36,868 constant reach out there and network and get to know people and I was. 160 00:07:37,278 --> 00:07:39,558 Like, Ugh, I don't wanna do that. 161 00:07:39,558 --> 00:07:42,288 They're gonna just look at me and laugh and be like, Ugh, noob, 162 00:07:42,528 --> 00:07:43,788 who wants to deal with that? 163 00:07:43,788 --> 00:07:47,958 You know, . So finally I was like, there was, it came through my thing 164 00:07:47,958 --> 00:07:51,528 again and it was like, uh, you know, just start following people on Twitter. 165 00:07:51,528 --> 00:07:52,578 And I was like, I can do that. 166 00:07:52,968 --> 00:07:56,028 I can do Twitter because then nobody sees me. 167 00:07:57,378 --> 00:08:00,498 I don't, I can engage at a level that I'm comfortable with 168 00:08:01,458 --> 00:08:03,168 and, you know, go from there. 169 00:08:03,258 --> 00:08:05,628 And so, so that was like my first step. 170 00:08:05,633 --> 00:08:10,878 And I just happened to join Twitter and start some of like the, the code newbie 171 00:08:10,908 --> 00:08:15,348 accounts and like the accounts that are kind of, are more well known to be the 172 00:08:15,348 --> 00:08:17,478 supportive of developing developers. 173 00:08:19,043 --> 00:08:22,703 Code Newbie just happened to be having their like, I think it's a weekly chat, 174 00:08:22,823 --> 00:08:24,533 but it's a chat that they do on Twitter. 175 00:08:25,013 --> 00:08:28,193 And the question that time was, what advice would you give 176 00:08:28,253 --> 00:08:29,693 to somebody learning to code? 177 00:08:30,203 --> 00:08:34,583 And I just remember re like those replies just because they didn't, I 178 00:08:34,583 --> 00:08:36,063 wasn't following a lot of people yet. 179 00:08:36,233 --> 00:08:39,293 And so like their replies just kept coming in my feed. 180 00:08:39,773 --> 00:08:43,823 And I remember just sitting there like with literal tears going, oh my 181 00:08:43,823 --> 00:08:48,713 God, there's this whole like source of people out there that actually care 182 00:08:48,713 --> 00:08:52,883 if I succeed . And they, they don't even know me, but they care like, 183 00:08:53,113 --> 00:08:57,103 It was just kind of inspirational and jarring all at the same time. 184 00:08:57,103 --> 00:09:00,133 And then that gave me the courage to go to local meetups, which made 185 00:09:00,133 --> 00:09:04,003 me realize that I was further along than I was giving myself credit for. 186 00:09:04,003 --> 00:09:07,753 And through those connections and encouragements, I was able 187 00:09:07,753 --> 00:09:09,403 to get the internship that I got. 188 00:09:09,403 --> 00:09:12,933 And you know, I probably would've still been sitting in my living room learning 189 00:09:12,938 --> 00:09:16,183 to code had I not like stepped outta. 190 00:09:17,118 --> 00:09:22,638 Fear of being exposed and, and being a new and, and just embraced that 191 00:09:23,208 --> 00:09:28,968 and let others who wanted to be there to say, you've got this, and if you 192 00:09:28,968 --> 00:09:30,888 have questions, I'm happy to help. 193 00:09:31,158 --> 00:09:36,308 And, you know, that was, I love that . I just have never experienced that in, in 194 00:09:36,308 --> 00:09:39,228 any, the other aspect of like my journey. 195 00:09:39,228 --> 00:09:39,378 Thus, 196 00:09:40,118 --> 00:09:44,918 Eddie: I love how you were nervous and so there was this way of kind of 197 00:09:44,918 --> 00:09:47,678 going down this path where it's like you didn't have to go to a conference 198 00:09:47,678 --> 00:09:51,938 with thousands of people and feel like, Hey, I'm a developer, but instead, like 199 00:09:52,058 --> 00:09:53,568 you could engage on Twitter and even. 200 00:09:54,188 --> 00:09:58,028 Like the main thing was you were following the code newbies and you saw people's 201 00:09:58,028 --> 00:10:02,468 replies to this question, and it's like their replies weren't even necessarily 202 00:10:02,468 --> 00:10:04,358 directed to you at that moment, right? 203 00:10:04,358 --> 00:10:06,878 Like it was just right to anyone trying to learn. 204 00:10:06,938 --> 00:10:11,833 And yet that spoke to you as someone who was like nervous and in this news, Space 205 00:10:11,833 --> 00:10:13,633 that like, oh hey, I'm welcome here. 206 00:10:13,633 --> 00:10:17,773 Like people care enough to write advice into the void. 207 00:10:18,043 --> 00:10:21,013 That's really awesome and that it took you on this journey to say, Hey, 208 00:10:21,013 --> 00:10:24,553 like now I can actually go meet up with people in person and like, it's 209 00:10:24,553 --> 00:10:29,293 not scary cuz I've seen that like these people are, are kind and they 210 00:10:29,503 --> 00:10:31,543 want to engage with others and stuff. 211 00:10:31,603 --> 00:10:31,843 I love. 212 00:10:32,498 --> 00:10:34,178 April: Yeah, no, that sums it up. 213 00:10:34,178 --> 00:10:34,658 Exactly. 214 00:10:34,658 --> 00:10:35,828 It was, it was really nice. 215 00:10:35,938 --> 00:10:37,478 It, it was really appreciated. 216 00:10:37,598 --> 00:10:38,168 Very much so, 217 00:10:39,518 --> 00:10:43,328 , Eddie: have you kind of run into any specific instances of, you 218 00:10:43,328 --> 00:10:46,418 know, someone going outta their way to help you on your journey? 219 00:10:46,418 --> 00:10:51,178 Like either on Twitter or in a, like the meetups or 220 00:10:51,908 --> 00:10:53,048 anything else kind of along the. 221 00:10:53,773 --> 00:10:58,333 April: I have so many , not necessarily on Twitter because, because I did 222 00:10:58,333 --> 00:11:01,513 just my personality, I do tend to be a little bit more reserved on Twitter. 223 00:11:01,603 --> 00:11:05,413 There was a, there was a period of time when I was a little bit more 224 00:11:05,418 --> 00:11:09,613 active and I was writing blog posts for the intern part of the internship 225 00:11:09,613 --> 00:11:10,903 program that I was a part of. 226 00:11:11,053 --> 00:11:14,683 And so I would promote those, not necessarily for my sake, but 227 00:11:14,683 --> 00:11:18,013 for the program itself because I really felt strongly that it was 228 00:11:18,013 --> 00:11:20,533 a great program, that I wanted more people to be aware of it and. 229 00:11:21,078 --> 00:11:23,748 As I wrote those blog posts, I would share them and things. 230 00:11:23,748 --> 00:11:26,778 But then once that was over and I was working, I kind of went 231 00:11:26,778 --> 00:11:28,308 back to my little lu corner, 232 00:11:29,808 --> 00:11:31,968 So you won't see too many posts for me. 233 00:11:31,973 --> 00:11:34,908 I'll retweet from time to time something that resonates, but generally 234 00:11:34,908 --> 00:11:36,648 I'm, I'm a scroller in the lurker. 235 00:11:37,218 --> 00:11:41,418 And then I, I would say like the most impactful to me was, uh, the 236 00:11:41,418 --> 00:11:45,798 organizer for one of the local meetups was the one who introduced me to the 237 00:11:45,798 --> 00:11:47,798 internship program that I participated. 238 00:11:47,993 --> 00:11:51,923 And when they mentioned it and specifically and during, after they 239 00:11:51,928 --> 00:11:53,243 had announced it to the whole group. 240 00:11:53,243 --> 00:11:56,543 And then afterwards when we had the social time, they specifically came 241 00:11:56,548 --> 00:11:58,163 to me and said, you should apply. 242 00:11:58,853 --> 00:12:01,373 And I was like, I'm not, I'm not. 243 00:12:01,378 --> 00:12:02,553 I don't, I'm not, can't. 244 00:12:02,963 --> 00:12:04,313 And like just apply. 245 00:12:04,373 --> 00:12:05,093 Just apply. 246 00:12:05,098 --> 00:12:05,413 It's like. 247 00:12:05,828 --> 00:12:09,818 You answer like four questions to apply like, and you can do that. 248 00:12:09,848 --> 00:12:10,778 I know you can do that. 249 00:12:10,988 --> 00:12:13,688 And then from there you can go see what happens next. 250 00:12:13,778 --> 00:12:14,378 I was like, ok, fine. 251 00:12:14,828 --> 00:12:18,998 Ok, fine . But that push and that nudge and that encouragement 252 00:12:19,003 --> 00:12:20,778 of like, I think you're ready. 253 00:12:21,378 --> 00:12:25,938 And I would love to see you do this, that I really, really appreciated that. 254 00:12:25,938 --> 00:12:29,778 And I have tried paying that and have paid that forward to at least, at least one 255 00:12:29,778 --> 00:12:34,998 other person, but I think others, but one in particular, , where it was somebody 256 00:12:34,998 --> 00:12:37,068 that I also saw at our meetup group. 257 00:12:37,458 --> 00:12:41,178 That was progressing and kind of, I saw them in a similar space than I was of 258 00:12:41,178 --> 00:12:45,198 spinning their wheels and trying to be perfect their, their Java script and 259 00:12:45,198 --> 00:12:49,998 trying to perfect where they were at and, and stepping in and saying, you 260 00:12:49,998 --> 00:12:51,708 need to take this to the next level. 261 00:12:51,713 --> 00:12:54,828 Let's get you started on some open source contributions so that you can 262 00:12:54,833 --> 00:12:58,998 actually work in real code instead of trying to just keep learning. 263 00:12:59,608 --> 00:13:03,538 Concepts and ideas that you might not ever come across and you have the skills 264 00:13:03,538 --> 00:13:08,488 to research them if you do . That was kinda the most impactful one for me. 265 00:13:08,998 --> 00:13:11,458 Eddie: And I love that you mentioned like you kind of paid 266 00:13:11,458 --> 00:13:12,628 that forward as well, right? 267 00:13:12,628 --> 00:13:13,708 Like this community. 268 00:13:13,713 --> 00:13:13,828 Mm-hmm. 269 00:13:14,128 --> 00:13:20,638 only continues to be impactful in that way if we receive it and we also pay 270 00:13:20,638 --> 00:13:22,198 it forward and we give it forward. 271 00:13:22,198 --> 00:13:24,898 So I love that kind of train happening there. 272 00:13:26,163 --> 00:13:29,673 . April: No, I absolutely, and that's, I think because it had such 273 00:13:29,673 --> 00:13:34,053 a positive impact on me, it just drives me the most to be able to 274 00:13:34,053 --> 00:13:36,213 provide and to pay that forward. 275 00:13:36,573 --> 00:13:40,233 Eddie: You know, I kind of came across you because you being involved 276 00:13:40,233 --> 00:13:44,553 with the collab lab, and I think that's another big community, right? 277 00:13:44,553 --> 00:13:48,813 Like in speaking of communities that kind of people receive, people pay forward. 278 00:13:49,193 --> 00:13:54,443 Where they kind of have taken that receiving and paying forward into 279 00:13:54,803 --> 00:13:56,813 a persevering lifecycle, right? 280 00:13:56,813 --> 00:14:01,613 Where people can come, people can learn, and then people can then 281 00:14:01,853 --> 00:14:03,683 mentor and carry that forward. 282 00:14:03,713 --> 00:14:04,533 Um, yeah. 283 00:14:04,828 --> 00:14:08,158 I guess, you know, what are your experiences with the, the collab 284 00:14:08,158 --> 00:14:09,328 lab and, and what did that look 285 00:14:09,328 --> 00:14:09,568 April: like? 286 00:14:09,628 --> 00:14:12,958 Yeah, I've actually been involved with them on a few different levels. 287 00:14:13,048 --> 00:14:17,308 I came across them on Twitter , which is their primary 288 00:14:17,308 --> 00:14:19,168 outreach, um, source as well. 289 00:14:19,588 --> 00:14:23,368 I really loved the concept and the idea because one of the things when 290 00:14:23,373 --> 00:14:26,548 I, when I did my internship, the mentor that I worked with asked me 291 00:14:26,548 --> 00:14:29,818 at the very beginning, like, what are you hoping to take away from this? 292 00:14:29,818 --> 00:14:32,368 Like, what are you hoping to learn out of this experience? 293 00:14:32,738 --> 00:14:37,088 And, you know, they gave some examples like, do you wanna become better at React? 294 00:14:37,088 --> 00:14:39,668 Do you wanna look, you know, better at, and there's a lot of technical 295 00:14:39,668 --> 00:14:42,278 aspects that they were asking, like, if I wanted to improve. 296 00:14:42,308 --> 00:14:46,448 And I was just like, I wanna know what it feels like to work on a team, 297 00:14:46,958 --> 00:14:52,148 to work as part of a team and, and what does that look and feel like? 298 00:14:52,508 --> 00:14:56,243 Because, This is a world that's not, I, I've never done this before, 299 00:14:57,533 --> 00:15:02,303 So I wanna be able to walk into a job and feel competent, and not feel 300 00:15:02,303 --> 00:15:06,353 lost and confused and so forth, so that I can be the best, you know, 301 00:15:06,353 --> 00:15:08,213 give the best of myself to that job. 302 00:15:08,598 --> 00:15:10,608 So that was kind of my, my goal and my purpose. 303 00:15:10,608 --> 00:15:15,078 And I think at that point I realized like the code will come and with, I 304 00:15:15,078 --> 00:15:18,738 had already seen, so, and I, and, and we'll talk a little bit later about 305 00:15:18,738 --> 00:15:22,338 the program itself, but I had already experienced what it was like to get 306 00:15:22,338 --> 00:15:24,528 feedback from a senior developer. 307 00:15:24,858 --> 00:15:28,308 And so I already knew like the, the growth was going to be there 308 00:15:28,308 --> 00:15:29,928 from a technical standpoint. 309 00:15:29,958 --> 00:15:30,048 Mm-hmm. 310 00:15:30,488 --> 00:15:33,798 . And so I wanted to ensure that I then got that other layer 311 00:15:34,398 --> 00:15:36,738 involved when I saw the CoLab lab. 312 00:15:36,738 --> 00:15:36,978 That's. 313 00:15:37,618 --> 00:15:43,018 Their mission statement, , or a version of their mission statement, which is 314 00:15:43,178 --> 00:15:47,488 to, to give early career developers that experience of what it feels like 315 00:15:47,488 --> 00:15:52,168 to collaborate as part of a team so that when they are interviewing, they can 316 00:15:52,168 --> 00:15:56,698 have more informed conversations about their experience and, and that process. 317 00:15:57,178 --> 00:16:00,538 And then when they step in on day one, they step in just a little. 318 00:16:00,848 --> 00:16:04,238 More ready and prepared for the work that they're going to be asked to do, 319 00:16:04,238 --> 00:16:09,728 and without a lot of the side noise, like the friction that comes from not 320 00:16:09,728 --> 00:16:11,678 knowing what the process looks like. 321 00:16:11,948 --> 00:16:15,368 And so I, I just really wanna be there and support that. 322 00:16:15,458 --> 00:16:18,188 So I've been, I've been a mentor for a couple of cohorts. 323 00:16:18,528 --> 00:16:21,948 I've also done some mock interviews during their career lab. 324 00:16:22,398 --> 00:16:24,498 Um, in fact, I have another mock interview coming up. 325 00:16:24,798 --> 00:16:29,298 I'm both going to be giving one to one of the, uh, collab participants, but I'm 326 00:16:29,298 --> 00:16:31,848 also going to do the interviewer mentor. 327 00:16:31,998 --> 00:16:33,048 I'll be the interviewee. 328 00:16:34,398 --> 00:16:34,578 Eddie: That's 329 00:16:34,578 --> 00:16:35,118 April: awesome. 330 00:16:35,123 --> 00:16:35,598 Yeah. 331 00:16:35,603 --> 00:16:35,988 Yeah. 332 00:16:36,078 --> 00:16:38,678 So just to give them an example of what it. 333 00:16:38,928 --> 00:16:40,968 To, what does an interview look like? 334 00:16:42,558 --> 00:16:46,278 . , it's a really great program and I really appreciate the work that they do, and 335 00:16:46,278 --> 00:16:48,018 so I try to contribute where I can. 336 00:16:48,318 --> 00:16:52,458 And then I also presented it to my work and we incorporated it in as 337 00:16:52,458 --> 00:16:55,098 part of one of company initiatives. 338 00:16:55,668 --> 00:16:59,838 Multiple people from my work also jump in and mentor and help out, so 339 00:16:59,928 --> 00:17:01,278 it slowed down a little bit lately. 340 00:17:01,733 --> 00:17:03,743 But it was fun for, it was fun for a little bit. 341 00:17:03,743 --> 00:17:06,413 We had like four or five people going at a time, so it was fun. 342 00:17:07,943 --> 00:17:09,023 . Eddie: Yeah, I love it. 343 00:17:09,083 --> 00:17:10,613 Like you said, it's interesting. 344 00:17:10,823 --> 00:17:14,873 You can really tell when kind of a company or a group of people within a 345 00:17:14,878 --> 00:17:16,673 company like really support, cuz you. 346 00:17:17,403 --> 00:17:21,393 When you join the collab lab Slack, like you'll end up running across, 347 00:17:21,393 --> 00:17:24,753 you know, several companies that you have a handful of people from 348 00:17:24,753 --> 00:17:26,433 the same company all involved. 349 00:17:26,463 --> 00:17:26,523 Yeah. 350 00:17:26,523 --> 00:17:27,873 And you're like, oh, wow. 351 00:17:27,933 --> 00:17:31,053 It definitely makes a, a really positive statement. 352 00:17:31,113 --> 00:17:34,353 You know, as far as like, yeah, the people who are involved in this company and what 353 00:17:34,353 --> 00:17:35,973 they prioritize and what they care about. 354 00:17:36,003 --> 00:17:38,168 So that was, Encouraging to see. 355 00:17:38,258 --> 00:17:38,828 It was really 356 00:17:38,828 --> 00:17:39,128 April: great. 357 00:17:39,128 --> 00:17:42,698 I was actually really, um, was really happy to see that 358 00:17:42,698 --> 00:17:44,258 being undertaken from us. 359 00:17:44,258 --> 00:17:48,248 And, and it was kind of a, in and around the aspects of, you know, we as a company 360 00:17:48,248 --> 00:17:53,768 try to do what we can in regards to like diversity and inclusion and so forth. 361 00:17:53,953 --> 00:17:57,703 And so we wanted to be able to try to mirror that out 362 00:17:57,733 --> 00:18:00,433 into the bigger tech sphere. 363 00:18:00,493 --> 00:18:05,053 And so by supporting an organization like the collab lab, which does also support 364 00:18:05,383 --> 00:18:09,523 underrepresented individuals, it kind of gave us an opportunity to, you know, 365 00:18:09,523 --> 00:18:13,093 be out there and be involved in and make a difference outside of our internal 366 00:18:13,093 --> 00:18:13,513 Eddie: circle. 367 00:18:13,633 --> 00:18:17,168 Yeah, that's great because, That's one reason I got involved with the 368 00:18:17,168 --> 00:18:23,168 collab lab as well, because as a white man in tech, I am amongst a 369 00:18:23,173 --> 00:18:26,048 huge herd of overly represented, uh, 370 00:18:26,438 --> 00:18:30,248 You go, go down the checklist of are you overrepresented in tech? 371 00:18:30,338 --> 00:18:36,668 Yes, I am a clone of many people and so for me, like figuring out how to help 372 00:18:36,848 --> 00:18:40,328 tech become a more diverse and inclusive. 373 00:18:40,633 --> 00:18:43,993 Place, like being part of companies and looking around and being like, uh, this 374 00:18:43,993 --> 00:18:45,763 company isn't, you know, very diverse. 375 00:18:45,913 --> 00:18:51,253 A big problem is the funnel in like, people knowing that they can be in tech, 376 00:18:51,313 --> 00:18:56,263 knowing that there are people to support them and help get them ahead, right? 377 00:18:56,268 --> 00:19:00,813 Where it's like, oh, like not only do I know the tech, but I can work 378 00:19:00,973 --> 00:19:05,563 on a team and I have team experience and kind of helping break down 379 00:19:05,563 --> 00:19:06,943 some of the systematic things. 380 00:19:07,718 --> 00:19:12,968 Hold people who are underrepresented back from being able to be involved or having 381 00:19:12,968 --> 00:19:14,558 as good interviews or things like that. 382 00:19:15,038 --> 00:19:17,528 So, yeah, I love that focus. 383 00:19:17,858 --> 00:19:21,278 April: One of the other pieces that I think is, is really, really, really 384 00:19:21,368 --> 00:19:27,398 lacking in our industry is, is a lot of individuals find tech later. 385 00:19:27,758 --> 00:19:31,868 They don't always find it in college, and sometimes it's misconceptions about 386 00:19:31,958 --> 00:19:35,468 what kind of skills they need to have to be a computer science major or. 387 00:19:36,008 --> 00:19:39,188 You know, sometimes it's simply they can't afford to go to college. 388 00:19:39,218 --> 00:19:43,208 You know, I mean, like, there's so many reasons why individuals don't 389 00:19:43,208 --> 00:19:45,578 take the traditional college path. 390 00:19:46,028 --> 00:19:51,548 So then you have this pool of people that the industry is trying to bring 391 00:19:51,548 --> 00:19:57,578 in, or, so the speak says , um, but they don't have things, the college degree. 392 00:19:57,638 --> 00:19:58,508 And if you look. 393 00:19:58,938 --> 00:20:02,358 And I, from my own personal experience, the opportunities that are, are 394 00:20:02,358 --> 00:20:07,578 afforded to you through internships and otherwise are usually aided by that. 395 00:20:07,968 --> 00:20:12,108 Like you have to be an active student at an accredited university in order 396 00:20:12,108 --> 00:20:16,278 to be qualified to do the internship at this company or that company. 397 00:20:16,848 --> 00:20:20,628 And so when you have a lot of these individuals and, and many times, 398 00:20:20,803 --> 00:20:24,673 From the underrepresented communities that are coming into this career 399 00:20:24,673 --> 00:20:28,783 later in their, in their lives or through non-traditional means. 400 00:20:28,843 --> 00:20:33,013 There's just not a lot of resources available to get that experience. 401 00:20:33,043 --> 00:20:37,213 And so wherever I can help programs that offer that through, such as the co 402 00:20:37,213 --> 00:20:40,163 lab, I, I'm gonna do my best to do so 403 00:20:41,413 --> 00:20:41,713 . Eddie: Right? 404 00:20:41,713 --> 00:20:45,673 So speaking of right, like internships and how people. 405 00:20:46,098 --> 00:20:47,658 Can get that kind of experience. 406 00:20:47,718 --> 00:20:51,438 Um, you kind of hinted at this earlier, but kind of talking through your 407 00:20:51,438 --> 00:20:56,358 experiences with an internship, you know, obviously in this podcast as 408 00:20:56,358 --> 00:20:59,298 people are probably used to me saying like, we love to support each other. 409 00:20:59,298 --> 00:20:59,508 Right? 410 00:20:59,508 --> 00:21:02,748 And we always kind of want to hear what shout outs people have 411 00:21:02,753 --> 00:21:06,288 for things that they might wanna look into and might be helpful. 412 00:21:06,288 --> 00:21:11,388 And so with that, you kind of had your internship and so tell 413 00:21:11,388 --> 00:21:12,258 me a little bit more about. 414 00:21:13,063 --> 00:21:14,143 April: Absolutely, I'd love to. 415 00:21:14,353 --> 00:21:16,903 So I went through a program called outreachy. 416 00:21:16,993 --> 00:21:19,513 Um, I believe your website is outreachy org. 417 00:21:20,383 --> 00:21:24,733 It's an organization that's intended to bring underrepresented individuals into 418 00:21:24,853 --> 00:21:26,773 free and open source software community. 419 00:21:26,983 --> 00:21:29,833 And it is a paid internship, which is nice. 420 00:21:29,863 --> 00:21:32,953 Obviously, , I mean, it's not the highest. 421 00:21:32,973 --> 00:21:34,593 Paying internship, but it is one. 422 00:21:34,593 --> 00:21:36,933 And, uh, there's an application process. 423 00:21:36,933 --> 00:21:40,983 And if you, if you clear through the application process, then you are brought 424 00:21:40,983 --> 00:21:43,233 into what's called a submission phase. 425 00:21:43,293 --> 00:21:46,113 And so that submission phase is approximately a month, 426 00:21:46,118 --> 00:21:47,343 if I remember correctly. 427 00:21:47,673 --> 00:21:51,963 And during that time, you can pick a project from the organizations that are 428 00:21:51,963 --> 00:21:57,753 participating in the um, uh, program and contribute to their code bases, 429 00:21:57,753 --> 00:21:59,913 through their open source code base. 430 00:22:01,448 --> 00:22:07,418 It's a really great way to get some experience working on actual code 431 00:22:07,418 --> 00:22:15,108 bases with dedicated mentors there to help guide you and give you feedback. 432 00:22:15,248 --> 00:22:18,968 And so when I did it, as I said, I didn't feel like I was prepared at all. 433 00:22:19,238 --> 00:22:24,368 And so then I started it and I picked a, a project to kind of. 434 00:22:24,983 --> 00:22:28,013 I guess lurked around a couple of the boards for some of the different 435 00:22:28,013 --> 00:22:32,933 projects, and I really liked the overall tone of the mentors on the project that 436 00:22:32,938 --> 00:22:34,823 I ultimately ended up contributing to. 437 00:22:34,973 --> 00:22:39,893 Because for time and resource, your best to pick one or two projects total because 438 00:22:39,953 --> 00:22:44,033 you know, otherwise you only ever get the opportunity to do very small starter 439 00:22:44,063 --> 00:22:49,163 projects like clean up these extra CSS lines that made it through a rease or. 440 00:22:49,493 --> 00:22:54,143 You know, go in and change the text on this error message or things 441 00:22:54,148 --> 00:22:57,383 that just are designed to get the code base on your computer, 442 00:22:57,383 --> 00:22:59,303 get it compiling, get it running. 443 00:22:59,753 --> 00:23:03,143 Have you find yourself, find the code that you need to fix and then 444 00:23:03,143 --> 00:23:04,613 not have to worry about the fix it. 445 00:23:05,168 --> 00:23:06,638 Like those little starter issues. 446 00:23:07,058 --> 00:23:09,578 And so if you're trying to contribute to multiple projects, you're 447 00:23:10,078 --> 00:23:13,958 probably never gonna get past that phase . And so that makes sense. 448 00:23:14,248 --> 00:23:17,888 So I found the, I found the organization and so it happened to be a project, um, 449 00:23:17,888 --> 00:23:19,628 read through Mozilla called Pontoon. 450 00:23:20,018 --> 00:23:24,308 They're a localization application that, that Mozilla uses for some 451 00:23:24,478 --> 00:23:25,958 of the internal localization. 452 00:23:25,958 --> 00:23:29,108 And it's also a free and open source software that can be used by others. 453 00:23:29,468 --> 00:23:35,783 And so I ended up in the end, Kind of approaching it with, I have 30 days 454 00:23:35,783 --> 00:23:41,093 with mentors that are ready and willing to review and give feedback, and I'm 455 00:23:41,098 --> 00:23:42,743 gonna take full advantage of that. 456 00:23:42,748 --> 00:23:45,083 And if I get the internship, that's even better. 457 00:23:46,883 --> 00:23:51,063 , . And so in the end, I ended up kind of, I think I put in five or six patches. 458 00:23:51,343 --> 00:23:54,823 Through the course of that first month and then actually continued 459 00:23:54,823 --> 00:23:58,243 on one of my patches while we waited for the internships to be announced. 460 00:23:58,243 --> 00:24:00,733 And so, and then, and then I got the internship. 461 00:24:00,763 --> 00:24:01,753 So it was fantastic. 462 00:24:02,133 --> 00:24:06,073 , yay, . But what I really liked about that process was twofold. 463 00:24:06,073 --> 00:24:08,908 One, I had the ability to show my skills. 464 00:24:09,793 --> 00:24:13,603 It wasn't just an application where you talk about or, and it wasn't, 465 00:24:13,603 --> 00:24:16,963 um, like a, you know, like a elite code test or something along those 466 00:24:16,963 --> 00:24:20,683 lines that just shows whether or not I can process logically and. 467 00:24:20,998 --> 00:24:23,188 A certain time restriction or whatever. 468 00:24:23,578 --> 00:24:29,428 Um, it was real code that I was then able to interact with and communicate 469 00:24:29,428 --> 00:24:35,848 with the or the maintainers and have that give and take process and. 470 00:24:36,083 --> 00:24:39,413 I really, really appreciated that, especially as somebody who didn't qualify 471 00:24:39,413 --> 00:24:43,403 for traditional internship opportunities such as those offered to college students. 472 00:24:43,913 --> 00:24:47,873 And so even if all I ever got was those first 30 days, it still would've been 473 00:24:47,873 --> 00:24:50,723 an invaluable asset to me going forward. 474 00:24:50,873 --> 00:24:55,013 So it was a, it was an extra gift to be able to do the internship and complete 475 00:24:55,018 --> 00:24:56,513 the internship project for them. 476 00:24:56,518 --> 00:25:00,173 And I still actually participate on that project to this day. 477 00:25:00,173 --> 00:25:02,963 And it's been, I think three years now, I think three or four 478 00:25:02,963 --> 00:25:04,313 years now since I started on it. 479 00:25:04,918 --> 00:25:08,548 I haven't done a lot of code contributions lately just cuz life, but I do still 480 00:25:08,548 --> 00:25:13,588 attend most of our weekly, you know, calls just to touch base with and keep in touch 481 00:25:13,593 --> 00:25:14,998 with what's happening on the project. 482 00:25:14,998 --> 00:25:16,828 And so therefore when I do dive in, I'll be ready to go. 483 00:25:19,348 --> 00:25:24,388 , Eddie: I love how, you know, they utilized open source and you know, 484 00:25:24,388 --> 00:25:28,523 also like, being a paid internship for many people in underrepresented, 485 00:25:28,523 --> 00:25:29,903 like that can be a huge challenge. 486 00:25:29,933 --> 00:25:34,613 If the bar is, oh, I have to, you know, work for unpaid for X amount of 487 00:25:34,613 --> 00:25:38,663 time, like all those things we can do to kind of pull down the gates and, 488 00:25:38,693 --> 00:25:40,583 and open things up is, is excellent. 489 00:25:40,583 --> 00:25:41,213 So That's awesome. 490 00:25:41,303 --> 00:25:41,633 That's an 491 00:25:41,633 --> 00:25:42,233 April: excellent program. 492 00:25:42,323 --> 00:25:45,193 I, I was, Very happy with my participation in it, 493 00:25:46,633 --> 00:25:49,093 . Eddie: Well, thank you so much for joining us today, April. 494 00:25:49,093 --> 00:25:52,543 It's been a pleasure chatting and, uh, getting to hear a little more 495 00:25:52,633 --> 00:25:55,843 about your story and, and what gets you excited about the tech industry. 496 00:25:55,903 --> 00:25:56,683 April: Yeah, absolutely. 497 00:25:56,688 --> 00:25:57,313 Thanks for inviting 498 00:25:57,313 --> 00:25:57,433 Eddie: me. 499 00:25:57,523 --> 00:25:58,213 Absolutely. 500 00:25:59,453 --> 00:26:02,483 Thank you for joining us for episode 26. 501 00:26:03,023 --> 00:26:03,953 I think you're ready. 502 00:26:04,403 --> 00:26:05,393 With April Balor. 503 00:26:05,903 --> 00:26:08,483 You can find out more about April on her Twitter. 504 00:26:08,993 --> 00:26:11,603 At a underscore Balor two. 505 00:26:12,143 --> 00:26:16,403 You can find links to everything we talked about in this episode, as well as a link 506 00:26:16,403 --> 00:26:18,173 to April's Twitter in the show notes. 507 00:26:18,683 --> 00:26:21,953 If you enjoyed this episode, help others discover it as well. 508 00:26:22,163 --> 00:26:26,363 Why don't you give us a shout out on Twitter or tag a friend or coworker 509 00:26:26,363 --> 00:26:27,743 that you think would enjoy it? 510 00:26:28,523 --> 00:26:31,373 And don't forget to follow us on Twitter or subscribe to our 511 00:26:31,373 --> 00:26:32,963 newsletter to stay up to date. 512 00:26:33,623 --> 00:26:36,113 Thank you for listening and have a great day