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Sonia Meza-Leon: Alrighty.

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Hayes, Carlitos.

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Hey, Scarlett fans.

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We are back with episode
eight of our podcast.

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We are going to be talking tonight
about the slender man stabbing

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Brittney Sherman: you're of course,
here with me, Brittany Sherman.

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And I'm here with Sonia Misa Leone.

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I'm excited for this one.

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I am batting with a home field advantage
here because this happened right

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down the street from where I live.

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And I didn't really start thinking
about this until I was diving into

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this conver or this topic, man.

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Some shit happens in Wisconsin.

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Sonia Meza-Leon: Oh yeah.

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You guys have a, you're
probably went second to Florida.

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Maybe.

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Yes.

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Brittney Sherman: Yeah.

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You're

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Sonia Meza-Leon: still number one.

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I think only because we're
able to publish that.

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That's I promise there's crazy everywhere,
but Florida, since the laws that you,

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any criminal, you know, mugshots, all
of that's all public information and the

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press loves it and goes crazy over it.

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But of course, yes.

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Weird things happen in Florida.

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Yeah.

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Well, so

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Brittney Sherman: I was thinking about
like how, I mean, I've got like a

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bevy of topics for us to talk about
at some point, but I was thinking.

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Maybe five, six things that are
like really close to where I was.

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So they're within a mile, maybe a
mile and a half of where I grew up.

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And where at parents currently
live, there were two mass shootings.

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That one that was really
highly publicized.

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I think back in like 2012, maybe, um,
there was the church that I grew up

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going to when I was a child and the
family that lived down the street from

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the first house that I lived in, there
was a mother who tragically drowned

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her two sons and was a member of the
same parish that we were, who was that?

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No, no, no, no.

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It wasn't Susan Smith.

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She joined them in their bathtub.

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I don't remember her name,

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Sonia Meza-Leon: unfortunately.

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Okay.

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We'll cover that one later.

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Brittney Sherman: Yeah, we'll
definitely come to that.

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Cause that was really tragic.

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Like it actually drove the priest from
our church to like need to retire and

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relocate because it was too much for him.

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He couldn't handle it.

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Uh, there was there's of course,
Jeffrey Dahmer for Milwaukee

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right next to where I live.

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Uh, and there was a, uh,
kidnapping that happened.

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I think it was like the same week as
Elizabeth smart, but never received

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the same kind of publicity except
it was on wasn't unsolved mystery.

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So it was that show that
John Walsh used to host.

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I can't remember what it's called now.

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America's most wanted, I
think it was featured on that.

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Um, so that happened and that's deal
a cold case that girl was never found.

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And now of course here is slender
man, which is in the same county

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in next town, over from where.

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Sonia Meza-Leon: Crazy.

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So it gives us a little rundown on
what's our, what's our summary of this.

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So we can kind of let everybody know
what to expect from this episode.

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Also give fair warning when it
comes to the severity of this crime

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and you know, we're going to be
sharing some graphic information.

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Um, and we're going to be talking about,
um, the victim as well as the, uh,

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The defendants in the case, the actual
perpetrators and they're all at the time

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of the, um, crime were 12 years old.

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So understand, we'll try to be sensitive
to, uh, speaking about them because

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they are children and certainly
sensitive to all of their families,

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um, because they're all, you know,
going through their own challenges,

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uh, when it comes to this case, it
was a shock to everyone, certainly.

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And as all.

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Uh,

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Brittney Sherman: we advise
listener discretion advised

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because we will be getting into,
into some violent conversations.

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And this is strictly our opinion and
the evidence that is already out there.

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We are not introducing anything
new or stating anything as fact.

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So a quick little summary on slender, man.

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Uh, he is a fictional
supernatural character.

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That's really popular still among,
uh, pre-teens and adolescents.

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The crux of the story is that he is this
thin featureless man between eight and

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15 feet tall, and he stalks and, um,
ducks and traumatizes, uh, children.

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Uh, he was invented as part of, uh,
just a fun little contest, but in

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2014 in Waukesha, Wisconsin, two
12 year old girls became consumed

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by the lore of slender man.

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And believe that the only way to be safe
from him was to kill their friend Peyton,

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or as they called her Bella Leitner.

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This is their story.

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Sonia Meza-Leon: so, uh, interesting
case, you know, it's, um, I think what

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I want to hear from you is a little
bit of the background of the area.

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This is your hometown.

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It like it really is.

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And it would be awesome.

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I mean, I feel like this is fairly
recent 2014, you know, the kids, I

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think I could definitely understand.

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12 year old was going through in 2014,
because it would likely be similar

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technology that we have today, maybe
a little more improved, but they were

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still serving the internet, you know,
and there was likely the same information

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out there, Facebook social media.

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So these two were definitely influenced
by, um, any, a lot of the online material

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that they received about Slenderman.

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I think that was their main
source of information about him.

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Yes.

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So

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Brittney Sherman: to paint a little bit
of a picture of where we're talking about,

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because I didn't know this area very well.

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Uh, I grew up in a town that's right in
the middle of Milwaukee, Wisconsin and

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Waukesha, Wisconsin, and it's Waukesha
county is the, the area that I grew up in.

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And of course this is Waukesha,
the city within Washoe county and.

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E a significant hybrid of a
metropolitan area and a woodsy

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forest desolate rural area.

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Waukesha is a pretty
large swath of land that.

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In one area, you are very close
to the happenings, like the

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downtown areas, shopping food.

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You're only maybe a 10 minute drive
from Milwaukee, but you're also only

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a five minute drive from being pretty
much completely cut off from society.

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It's just, it's a lot of rural highways.

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Uh, just a lot of open
land houses that live.

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Far apart from each other.

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I don't know the specific area
where these girls are from.

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I kind of got the, uh, the opinion
that they are from somewhere kind of on

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that border of the, the city portion of
it to the more country portion of it.

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Yeah.

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It looked like

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Sonia Meza-Leon: a subdivision
where this park was located.

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Brittney Sherman: Yes, exactly.

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So, um, to your point about how they
kind of got consumed Slenderman is

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mostly just, it's an online fiction.

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There've been stories that have come out.

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There've been a couple movies made,
but really at the time, and it

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originated on the website, creepy
pasta as just a fun invention that

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was meant to garner a little attention
and win an award for some guide.

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Create this new creepy story
that could be used to freak out

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kids and kind of become a new

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Sonia Meza-Leon: bogeyman.

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Do you think really the creep out
kids, or do you think it was targeted

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at a more adult audience and kids
just became interested in it or

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it was a really targeting kids?

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Brittney Sherman: Well, okay.

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So that's a really good question.

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I'm not really sure what the original
intent was, but when this person, uh,

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Eric Knutson is his name, uh, submitted
his story to the creepy pasta website.

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He included with it two pictures.

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One picture was of kids playing on a
playground and slender man hanging out

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in the trees behind kind of creeping
around a tree and watching the kids I use

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watching lightly because Slenderman as
the story goes, has no facial features.

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There is no eyes, nose, mouth, and ears.

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It's just a blur.

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Canvas more or less.

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And then he submitted another
picture which had slender man chasing

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after a bunch of kids crossing a

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Sonia Meza-Leon: bridge.

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Oh, got it.

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So there was depictions of, of him
visual depictions of him actually

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chasing children and somewhere another,
they got this because what I thought

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was interesting about this case was
that when the girls in question, um,

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and we'll talk about them a little more
detail when they started, um, becoming

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interested in slender, man, they.

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It was a little confusing on from, from
my standpoint, because a lot of what they

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talked about felt like that they were
instructed by slender man, or that they

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had gotten information that somehow again,
as you said, um, you know, that they

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went ahead with this plan to murder this
little girl, I E Morgan's best friend.

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And, um, because they needed to protect
their own families from slender man.

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Like their.

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Did they get direct orders?

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Did they just, was there an implication
based on the information that was online?

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Um, you know, I think all of those things
that we'll definitely talk about as we

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get a little bit further in the case, but
let's start at the beginning, um, of this

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case, which is in 2014, um, May 31st.

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Um, so if we back it up a little
bit, we've got, uh, two girls

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Morgan Geyser and Anissa Weir.

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So Morgan Geyser had known
T uh, uh, Peyton Lautner

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for quite a number of years.

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Um, Lightner, Lightner.

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Yes, like Christian later,
later that's Christian later.

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And this is lightener
Peyton lightener liner.

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Got it.

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Um, So it sounds to be like
Peyton liner and Morgan Geyser

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had become friends when they were
five, six years were really young.

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They,

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Brittney Sherman: I mean, at this
point, I think they were 12 years

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old, but more or less considered
themselves be lifelong best

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Sonia Meza-Leon: friends.

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Right.

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And from what I could see
in the documentaries that I

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watched, um, I took a look.

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I became really interested in the
Slenderman case when I started

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watching beware of the slender
man, the Amy HBO documentary.

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And then I did a little more
research, um, in watching the 20,

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20 special that had a little more
information, a little more precision

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in the way that they approached it.

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Um, but it both, you know, shared
a lot of the same information.

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I, this case is fairly
simple in my opinion.

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I mean, there's no doubt what happened.

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There's no doubt who did it.

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It's really just the.

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Interest to finding out why.

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And I think we even know why they did
it, but there's still for me so much

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to talk about in the why, because,
um, you know, this is well documented.

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There's a lot of video footage of
them being interrogated and just

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the reactions of the girls and the
things that they said and the way that

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they said them, their demeanors, as
they conveyed this message of what

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they actually did and their intense.

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It was, they were delivering this message.

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It was so flat, you know, they were
just, as a matter of fact, you know,

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like they were explaining something
happening to someone else, not

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themselves, which was really interesting.

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And I completely understand and
appreciate that these are 12 year

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old girls, very impressionable.

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Um, but I think it's interesting to
look at those interrogations, if you are

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interested in that kind of thing, because
there's definitely a difference in the

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turn interrogations of Anissa and Morgan
Geyser and how they convey that message.

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There are a lot of similarities,
similarities as well, but the

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differences are what I find interesting.

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And I feel like that gives me
a little more insight into the

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motivations of both of these.

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Brittney Sherman: So talking about
the event itself, like you said,

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it's really straight forward.

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There's nothing up for debate,
both girls and Peyton and the

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authorities all shared the same story
that everyone's on the same page.

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So I think really what we're ultimately
going to get to is a conversation about

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the motivations and the aftermath.

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But before we do that, we're going
to run you through a little bit

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of the actual details of the case.

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So on May 30th, 2014, Uh, Peyton was
invited to a sleepover at Morgan's house.

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It was to celebrate Morgan's
birthday and Peyton, uh, Nissa

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and Morgan went to skate land,

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Sonia Meza-Leon: which sounds so fun.

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And by the way, I have a note here
Skateland in 2014, question mark,

232
00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:15,570
because is that actually a thing in
2014 skating, but I thought that that

233
00:13:15,570 --> 00:13:17,430
was all gone after rollerblading.

234
00:13:17,910 --> 00:13:20,520
Brittney Sherman: I
mean, definitely in 2014.

235
00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:21,840
I don't know if it's still there.

236
00:13:22,260 --> 00:13:32,580
I spent many a Friday night at skate land
and, uh, many, uh, not good memories.

237
00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:33,460
I'll be on

238
00:13:33,460 --> 00:13:33,990
Sonia Meza-Leon: high.

239
00:13:35,070 --> 00:13:35,520
Okay.

240
00:13:35,610 --> 00:13:38,850
Brittney Sherman: It's a
picture of me on skates.

241
00:13:39,180 --> 00:13:39,540
Sonia Meza-Leon: Okay.

242
00:13:39,570 --> 00:13:40,080
Well you are a

243
00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:41,100
Brittney Sherman: little clumsy now.

244
00:13:41,100 --> 00:13:44,430
Picture me on skates in
middle school with middle

245
00:13:44,430 --> 00:13:45,210
Sonia Meza-Leon: school kids.

246
00:13:47,130 --> 00:13:49,140
Brittney Sherman: Uh, not at the time.

247
00:13:49,350 --> 00:13:49,620
Sonia Meza-Leon: No.

248
00:13:49,950 --> 00:13:50,250
Okay.

249
00:13:50,250 --> 00:13:51,330
Well, okay.

250
00:13:51,390 --> 00:13:54,420
At least you have that going for
you, but where you before braces

251
00:13:54,420 --> 00:13:55,860
or after it was before braces.

252
00:13:55,890 --> 00:13:56,460
Oh, good Lord.

253
00:13:56,460 --> 00:13:59,370
So you needed braces, so all
of this working against you?

254
00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:00,750
Oh, well, yeah.

255
00:14:00,750 --> 00:14:05,130
So a month later on skates, it

256
00:14:05,130 --> 00:14:06,390
Brittney Sherman: brings
back some tough memories.

257
00:14:08,010 --> 00:14:10,350
Sonia Meza-Leon: I have tough memories
of skating too, but only because I

258
00:14:10,350 --> 00:14:13,860
would just stand around the corner and
wait for somebody to ask me to skate.

259
00:14:17,130 --> 00:14:19,140
I would like dance with my girlfriends.

260
00:14:19,140 --> 00:14:19,980
It was terrible.

261
00:14:19,980 --> 00:14:21,600
I mean, it was kind of pathetic.

262
00:14:21,750 --> 00:14:25,350
And then we would have sock hops at the
skating rink, which was really cool.

263
00:14:25,380 --> 00:14:26,190
Sock hops.

264
00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:27,570
Well, yeah, sock hops.

265
00:14:28,290 --> 00:14:31,560
Um, essentially what they did, it
was fan freaking tastic when you're a

266
00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,440
teenage girl, because you get locked
into this place all night and they

267
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:38,820
don't let you out until the morning
with a bunch of boys that you're, you

268
00:14:38,820 --> 00:14:41,310
know, of course who has sock hops.

269
00:14:41,700 --> 00:14:42,990
It, it was great.

270
00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,410
I don't know why that they, well,
you know why, because they didn't

271
00:14:46,410 --> 00:14:50,280
want people wearing shoes on
the floor, but you didn't skate.

272
00:14:50,340 --> 00:14:53,850
You actually took off your shoes and
just had socks on and danced on them.

273
00:14:54,020 --> 00:14:55,290
That actually does sound kind of fun.

274
00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:57,810
Yeah, it was because they locked you in.

275
00:14:58,170 --> 00:15:00,500
I mean, I remember going to
some walk-ins, those were fun.

276
00:15:00,690 --> 00:15:01,620
Fantastic.

277
00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,050
What a great like, oh, I know.

278
00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:04,590
Okay.

279
00:15:04,590 --> 00:15:05,580
So skate land, sorry.

280
00:15:05,580 --> 00:15:06,270
We digress.

281
00:15:06,270 --> 00:15:09,510
We're going to try to move this along
because I know that some of our episodes,

282
00:15:09,780 --> 00:15:14,490
um, sometimes bleed into two episodes,
this case I'm, we're hoping, I don't

283
00:15:14,490 --> 00:15:17,535
think there's enough information to talk
about, but again, All week, Brittany

284
00:15:17,535 --> 00:15:20,115
and I have been looking at this, I'm
thinking by this case and talking

285
00:15:20,115 --> 00:15:22,935
about this case and in passing and
every time we start to talk about it, a

286
00:15:22,935 --> 00:15:24,915
little we're like, no, no, no, no, no.

287
00:15:24,975 --> 00:15:27,705
Let's hold off because we really
want to record this because I do

288
00:15:27,705 --> 00:15:28,965
have a lot of opinions about this.

289
00:15:29,715 --> 00:15:30,165
Brittney Sherman: I do too.

290
00:15:30,165 --> 00:15:31,815
So all right, we'll get back to it.

291
00:15:31,815 --> 00:15:34,275
So they went to skate land to
celebrate Morgan's birthday.

292
00:15:34,725 --> 00:15:35,745
Uh, went home.

293
00:15:36,015 --> 00:15:40,485
Your original plan was for Morgan
and Anissa to wake up at 2:00

294
00:15:40,485 --> 00:15:45,315
AM and stab Payton to death in
the basement of Morgan's home.

295
00:15:45,615 --> 00:15:47,265
But both girls overslept.

296
00:15:47,295 --> 00:15:52,005
And when they did wake up, they
decided that they didn't want to

297
00:15:52,005 --> 00:15:56,685
do it then because they didn't want
to make a mess in the family home.

298
00:15:56,685 --> 00:16:00,135
And they thought that Peyton would
probably scream and wake up the parents.

299
00:16:00,495 --> 00:16:04,425
So they decided to put off the
attack at least temporarily.

300
00:16:04,845 --> 00:16:06,645
Sonia Meza-Leon: That's crazy.

301
00:16:07,065 --> 00:16:07,875
Super crazy.

302
00:16:07,935 --> 00:16:09,705
It's so calculated for.

303
00:16:10,589 --> 00:16:14,969
12 year old girls and I get it that
they, their motivation was, um,

304
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:16,349
this fantasy and that they had.

305
00:16:16,349 --> 00:16:19,500
But, you know, I, I'm not sure
I thought any plan through

306
00:16:19,500 --> 00:16:20,479
that thoroughly when I was

307
00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:25,290
Brittney Sherman: no, you're you're
right, but the become very conflicted.

308
00:16:25,469 --> 00:16:27,540
So they, they sleep through the night.

309
00:16:28,380 --> 00:16:32,699
W uh, I'll jump backwards a little bit
later about some of the motivations on

310
00:16:32,699 --> 00:16:37,260
how they get there, but want to just focus
on the events as they happen right now.

311
00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:42,660
So it gets through the night, wake up on
the morning of May 31st have breakfast,

312
00:16:42,780 --> 00:16:48,930
a fun sleepover for the three girls and
Morgan asked permission from her mom.

313
00:16:48,930 --> 00:16:50,459
If the three girls can get.

314
00:16:51,285 --> 00:16:53,025
Play at the park down the street.

315
00:16:53,204 --> 00:16:54,165
So this is a park.

316
00:16:54,194 --> 00:16:58,875
That is, it has a playground, but
it's also next to a wooded area.

317
00:16:59,025 --> 00:17:01,454
And as I think I mentioned at
the beginning, there's a lot

318
00:17:01,454 --> 00:17:05,234
of that in Waukesha county,
city of Oxford, particularly.

319
00:17:05,415 --> 00:17:07,605
So that's not uncommon at all.

320
00:17:07,875 --> 00:17:12,825
It's a lot of fun for kids to go
in the woods to play creepy games

321
00:17:12,825 --> 00:17:19,004
with each other and play like
light flashlight tag and at night.

322
00:17:19,004 --> 00:17:20,504
So this is super common.

323
00:17:21,075 --> 00:17:26,504
The girls go to the park and on
their way out, Morgan sneakily grabs

324
00:17:26,535 --> 00:17:28,065
a kitchen knife and puts it in her

325
00:17:28,065 --> 00:17:28,514
Sonia Meza-Leon: pants.

326
00:17:29,025 --> 00:17:30,995
So this is the morning of the 31st of.

327
00:17:31,950 --> 00:17:38,129
And so, um, I will note because I, you
know, I'm sure in 2014 things are a little

328
00:17:38,129 --> 00:17:39,930
more locked down than when I was young.

329
00:17:40,260 --> 00:17:44,310
And, um, I wondered, you know, is it
normal for these kids to go to the park?

330
00:17:44,340 --> 00:17:46,080
You know, how close is it?

331
00:17:46,350 --> 00:17:49,470
And from what I understand from
an interview with Morgan Geyser's

332
00:17:49,470 --> 00:17:52,560
mother, she said that normally
Morgan actually would not be allowed

333
00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:53,879
to go to the park by herself.

334
00:17:53,910 --> 00:17:57,270
And the only reason that she let them
go was because they were together.

335
00:17:57,770 --> 00:17:58,590
That was interesting.

336
00:17:58,980 --> 00:18:03,420
So, uh, you know, in the interviews that
Morgan's meet with Morgan's mom, she

337
00:18:03,420 --> 00:18:06,600
also says that she had no indication
the kids, the girls were at her.

338
00:18:07,409 --> 00:18:11,939
The night before everything was normal,
even though they apparently were

339
00:18:11,939 --> 00:18:16,919
planning on killing their friend in
the basement and holding off on that.

340
00:18:17,010 --> 00:18:20,879
And then, you know, even the next
morning she said things were absolutely

341
00:18:21,149 --> 00:18:23,070
as they were, um, nothing, no.

342
00:18:23,070 --> 00:18:26,820
Cause for alarm, she didn't have any
indication that they were planning this.

343
00:18:27,060 --> 00:18:31,500
So it just sort of speaks to what
what's normal and, um, you know,

344
00:18:31,500 --> 00:18:34,740
how do you make an assessment,
you know, so close to that event.

345
00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,389
Brittney Sherman: So the girls
get to the park and they play on

346
00:18:39,389 --> 00:18:40,919
the playground for a little while.

347
00:18:41,250 --> 00:18:41,610
And then.

348
00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:47,250
Uh, Nisa and Morgan start to flush
out exactly what they're going to do.

349
00:18:47,490 --> 00:18:54,090
So at this point, Morgan has the knife
and she started to get cold feet.

350
00:18:54,149 --> 00:18:55,260
She doesn't want to do it.

351
00:18:55,530 --> 00:18:57,929
So she says to a Nissa, I can't do it.

352
00:18:58,020 --> 00:19:00,000
And our Nissa says we have to do it.

353
00:19:00,270 --> 00:19:06,810
So Annisa takes a knife and talks Peyton
into going to, into the public bathroom.

354
00:19:07,620 --> 00:19:12,840
Because if Peyton is obviously going to
bleed, the blood will drain down into

355
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,659
the sewers and not leave much evidence.

356
00:19:16,050 --> 00:19:20,100
So the three girls go into the
bathroom and pain is cornered

357
00:19:20,100 --> 00:19:21,030
in the side of the bathroom.

358
00:19:21,030 --> 00:19:24,450
And she, this is the first
time she started to wonder,

359
00:19:24,510 --> 00:19:26,370
this seems a little weird.

360
00:19:26,370 --> 00:19:29,310
I don't know what's going on here, Morgan.

361
00:19:29,340 --> 00:19:33,540
And, uh, Nisa tried to convince
Peyton to lay down on the ground.

362
00:19:34,605 --> 00:19:38,145
She doesn't, which is great for so
many reasons, because the grounds of

363
00:19:38,505 --> 00:19:41,295
public park bathrooms are disgusting,

364
00:19:41,805 --> 00:19:42,795
Sonia Meza-Leon: kind
of like a port-a-potty

365
00:19:42,825 --> 00:19:43,185
Brittney Sherman: yeah.

366
00:19:43,185 --> 00:19:44,205
More or less.

367
00:19:44,565 --> 00:19:51,495
So a Nissa then grabs Peyton and
hits her head against the wall

368
00:19:51,525 --> 00:19:53,205
to try and knock her unconscious.

369
00:19:54,825 --> 00:19:55,335
At this

370
00:19:55,335 --> 00:19:55,785
point,

371
00:19:56,235 --> 00:19:58,935
Sonia Meza-Leon: this is a concrete
bathroom, by the way, just so everybody's

372
00:19:58,935 --> 00:20:03,045
clear, it's usually like, you know,
concrete block, you know, with, uh,

373
00:20:03,075 --> 00:20:07,695
sort of some sort of open, you know,
they're, they're not fancy and likely

374
00:20:07,695 --> 00:20:09,195
they aren't completely enclosed either.

375
00:20:09,285 --> 00:20:09,435
Yeah.

376
00:20:09,435 --> 00:20:10,095
The doors

377
00:20:10,245 --> 00:20:11,505
Brittney Sherman: probably it's doorway.

378
00:20:11,505 --> 00:20:12,745
It's probably not a door.

379
00:20:12,765 --> 00:20:13,035
Right.

380
00:20:14,025 --> 00:20:18,675
But at this point he felt your Peyton,
how do you continue to go along with this?

381
00:20:19,065 --> 00:20:21,645
She has her head hit against the wall.

382
00:20:21,735 --> 00:20:24,135
She doesn't fall unconscious.

383
00:20:24,945 --> 00:20:28,035
And so now she's getting more
concerned, but instead of saying,

384
00:20:28,395 --> 00:20:33,014
I want to go, she continues to play
with the girls after they leave

385
00:20:33,195 --> 00:20:33,945
Sonia Meza-Leon: the bathroom.

386
00:20:34,514 --> 00:20:38,205
I'm not surprised because she, you
know, if everybody's accurate in

387
00:20:38,205 --> 00:20:42,405
their assessment, that nobody could
have, nobody saw any saw any of this

388
00:20:42,405 --> 00:20:46,065
coming Peyton, you know, was probably
feeling a little peer pressure.

389
00:20:46,395 --> 00:20:51,045
And, um, you know, she and Morgan
were best friends and Lisa was the

390
00:20:51,045 --> 00:20:53,595
new, you know, friend to this group.

391
00:20:53,895 --> 00:21:02,205
And I'm sure there was some, you know,
maybe I'd say a little bit of jealousy

392
00:21:02,205 --> 00:21:07,485
or maybe, you know, it's true that
threes twos company, three's a crowd and.

393
00:21:08,430 --> 00:21:12,629
Obviously well-known after this,
this happened that Anissa and Morgan

394
00:21:12,629 --> 00:21:15,180
had been spending a lot of time
together because they would have been

395
00:21:15,180 --> 00:21:17,100
plotting this actually for six months.

396
00:21:17,460 --> 00:21:21,540
So this was an ongoing plan
that they had it wasn't, uh, you

397
00:21:21,540 --> 00:21:22,830
know, it didn't happen overnight.

398
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:25,050
They thought about it and
they thought about it a lot.

399
00:21:25,379 --> 00:21:30,180
So if that's the case, then they didn't
share any of that with Peyton, but she

400
00:21:30,180 --> 00:21:32,070
was supposed to be Morgan's best friend.

401
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:34,620
So that's really hard to imagine
how she would keep something

402
00:21:34,620 --> 00:21:35,790
like that from her best friend.

403
00:21:36,030 --> 00:21:36,200
So,

404
00:21:36,660 --> 00:21:40,230
Brittney Sherman: well that for a second,
because you hit on something amazingly

405
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:45,030
accurate two's company, three's a crowd,
despite what the show will tell us.

406
00:21:45,060 --> 00:21:45,270
Yeah.

407
00:21:46,604 --> 00:21:53,655
Uh, Nisa, uh, Nisa was new to
Waukesha and new to the school.

408
00:21:53,655 --> 00:21:56,415
So this was the end of
her first full year.

409
00:21:56,715 --> 00:22:01,935
Now I'm making some judgements here,
but Anissa to me comes across as an

410
00:22:01,965 --> 00:22:06,554
awkward kind of girl, not one that
fits in with the popular crowd.

411
00:22:06,615 --> 00:22:07,604
She's new.

412
00:22:07,725 --> 00:22:10,215
She probably didn't have
a lot of friends and she.

413
00:22:10,915 --> 00:22:16,705
Clung to Morgan early on, as he said, it
was about six months, they had been, had

414
00:22:16,705 --> 00:22:20,125
been friends and hanging out and a Nisa
is actually the one that introduced Morgan

415
00:22:20,125 --> 00:22:24,145
to slender man, because a Nissa was a
follower of slender man, before she moved.

416
00:22:24,625 --> 00:22:29,725
And she talked to Morgan
about how this is true.

417
00:22:29,725 --> 00:22:31,045
It's a lore.

418
00:22:31,105 --> 00:22:32,514
He's real.

419
00:22:32,514 --> 00:22:36,445
It's a, if we don't follow him, bad,
things are gonna happen to us on our

420
00:22:36,445 --> 00:22:41,995
friends and family and Morgan fell so
deeply into that belief that she actually

421
00:22:41,995 --> 00:22:45,325
claimed that she remembers seeing a
slender man when she was five years old

422
00:22:45,805 --> 00:22:50,665
and now completely became onboard with
a Nissa and the belief that they had

423
00:22:50,665 --> 00:22:53,245
to take action for them to become safe.

424
00:22:53,995 --> 00:22:59,365
Additionally, to that, they believe
that once they took that action and

425
00:22:59,365 --> 00:23:03,805
Peyton was dead, they would become
proxies for slender man, and be able

426
00:23:03,805 --> 00:23:06,475
to live in his castle in Nicola.

427
00:23:07,274 --> 00:23:12,284
Uh, is it state park, national park,
Nicola national park in Wisconsin.

428
00:23:13,095 --> 00:23:14,985
Sonia Meza-Leon: So I can,
they both believe this.

429
00:23:15,024 --> 00:23:15,975
They both believe this.

430
00:23:16,004 --> 00:23:20,445
So let's put a pin in this moment
right here, because this is something

431
00:23:20,445 --> 00:23:25,125
I'm going to bring up later because
I, I know that this the entire

432
00:23:25,125 --> 00:23:29,205
defense is based on the fact that
these girls believed in the slender

433
00:23:29,205 --> 00:23:31,395
man character, or they say they did.

434
00:23:31,754 --> 00:23:35,415
And that, um, you know,
this was driving them.

435
00:23:35,504 --> 00:23:37,004
They didn't have a choice.

436
00:23:37,034 --> 00:23:38,355
They were saving their family.

437
00:23:38,685 --> 00:23:42,524
Um, because there are some things that
are said in the interrogations that

438
00:23:42,735 --> 00:23:48,225
lead me to believe otherwise, or at
least question the black and white

439
00:23:48,284 --> 00:23:50,264
of if they really believed it or not.

440
00:23:50,294 --> 00:23:51,705
So pin in that keep going.

441
00:23:52,814 --> 00:23:55,274
Brittney Sherman: I still got the
impression that even though Peyton

442
00:23:55,274 --> 00:24:00,465
and Morgan were best friends, I
kind of felt that maybe Morgan.

443
00:24:01,284 --> 00:24:03,205
Slipping off to the sides.

444
00:24:03,205 --> 00:24:07,074
And Peyton was kind of maybe merging
in a little bit more with the popular

445
00:24:07,074 --> 00:24:11,155
crowd and starting to develop new
friends as you usually do when you move

446
00:24:11,155 --> 00:24:12,955
from elementary into middle school.

447
00:24:13,314 --> 00:24:17,814
And I got the opinion that, or the
impression, I guess I should say that

448
00:24:17,845 --> 00:24:23,034
Morgan was becoming more of a loner
herself and that's where she and her

449
00:24:23,034 --> 00:24:26,875
Nissa gravitated towards each other
because they saw each other as two loners

450
00:24:27,145 --> 00:24:29,185
independent work with the cool kids.

451
00:24:29,185 --> 00:24:33,145
Well, Peyton was gradually moving
towards the cool kids and that's why

452
00:24:33,355 --> 00:24:35,185
they really found a bond with each other.

453
00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:39,410
Sonia Meza-Leon: Do you think that's why
they found the need to, was this, I mean,

454
00:24:39,630 --> 00:24:43,890
the sad part about it, you know, is that
we had a victim in this case, Peyton

455
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:50,610
Lautner, Lightner, Lightner, uh, who, you
know, didn't do, didn't do anything wrong.

456
00:24:50,610 --> 00:24:52,530
Certainly didn't do
anything to deserve this.

457
00:24:52,860 --> 00:24:58,440
And, um, you know, it's just so strange
that they would happenstance to choose

458
00:24:58,470 --> 00:25:01,110
the person that they were close to.

459
00:25:01,110 --> 00:25:03,660
I'm I'm just surprised that
they wouldn't choose someone

460
00:25:03,660 --> 00:25:05,220
to murder who they didn't know.

461
00:25:05,430 --> 00:25:05,760
I

462
00:25:06,450 --> 00:25:08,400
Brittney Sherman: crushing
that exact same thing also.

463
00:25:08,700 --> 00:25:11,790
Uh, but I actually took it as they
felt like they had to make a sacrifice.

464
00:25:11,820 --> 00:25:15,570
And you needed to sacrifice
someone that was important to

465
00:25:15,570 --> 00:25:16,650
you to pledge your allegiance.

466
00:25:17,580 --> 00:25:20,550
Sonia Meza-Leon: Just I'm thinking
that they were really, they, she

467
00:25:20,550 --> 00:25:21,570
was really important to them.

468
00:25:22,950 --> 00:25:28,080
Brittney Sherman: I think that
Peyton was still important to a more.

469
00:25:29,205 --> 00:25:29,565
Sonia Meza-Leon: Okay,

470
00:25:29,955 --> 00:25:30,405
Brittney Sherman: fair enough.

471
00:25:30,585 --> 00:25:35,175
I think that they were drifting apart,
but they were still hanging on to

472
00:25:35,295 --> 00:25:38,325
that friendship that they've had for
what they considered their entire

473
00:25:38,325 --> 00:25:38,565
Sonia Meza-Leon: life.

474
00:25:38,595 --> 00:25:38,985
Sure.

475
00:25:39,045 --> 00:25:39,465
Got it.

476
00:25:39,885 --> 00:25:40,695
And that does happen.

477
00:25:40,695 --> 00:25:43,575
That's a natural progression when
you've got from elementary school

478
00:25:43,575 --> 00:25:47,835
to junior high, to high school and
schools merge and you lose contact.

479
00:25:47,835 --> 00:25:50,895
And, um, you know, it happened
to me, it happens to most people,

480
00:25:50,895 --> 00:25:53,835
so I'm not surprised, but this
is one of those pivotal moments.

481
00:25:54,135 --> 00:25:58,965
Um, especially for someone who may
have, um, some mental issues to deal

482
00:25:58,965 --> 00:26:02,865
with, you know, it's, it is a traumatic
event when you change schools and when

483
00:26:02,865 --> 00:26:07,335
you, you know, your friends come and
go for someone who may not be, um, you

484
00:26:07,335 --> 00:26:11,055
know, a sound mind, this is something
that could cause you know, a break.

485
00:26:11,055 --> 00:26:13,395
So all of these things, I
think we're culminating.

486
00:26:13,455 --> 00:26:15,945
Plus you've got 12 year old girls who.

487
00:26:16,584 --> 00:26:20,844
Their hormones kicking in, you know,
things aren't there, no teenage girl

488
00:26:20,844 --> 00:26:24,655
thinks straight and to have this kind
of thing, um, we brought into the

489
00:26:24,655 --> 00:26:28,104
conversation and to be thinking about
this and to get obsessed with it, as you

490
00:26:28,104 --> 00:26:32,604
would typically, you know, with, uh, you
know, someone of the opposite sex or,

491
00:26:32,754 --> 00:26:36,745
or not, you know, even, um, but usually
you've got a lot of things happening in

492
00:26:36,745 --> 00:26:39,925
your body and your mind that you don't
understand and why they're happening.

493
00:26:41,215 --> 00:26:41,455
Brittney Sherman: All right.

494
00:26:41,455 --> 00:26:43,915
We're going to jump back
to the events of May 31st.

495
00:26:43,945 --> 00:26:48,264
So after the girls leave the bathroom,
they decide that they are going to

496
00:26:48,264 --> 00:26:50,094
play hide and seek in the woods.

497
00:26:50,155 --> 00:26:52,915
And like I said, the woods are
like the best place to do that.

498
00:26:52,945 --> 00:26:53,935
It's so much fun.

499
00:26:54,385 --> 00:26:58,824
So Peyton going along with it
thinking everything's okay.

500
00:26:58,824 --> 00:27:03,354
Even though she just had her head hate
against the wall of the bathroom, decides

501
00:27:03,354 --> 00:27:04,975
to go along with playing hide and seek.

502
00:27:05,635 --> 00:27:07,074
So the girls get together.

503
00:27:07,405 --> 00:27:10,645
They say that they're going to,
uh, I think, uh, Nisa was supposed

504
00:27:10,645 --> 00:27:12,925
to be the one to like count and
the other girls are going to hide.

505
00:27:13,495 --> 00:27:15,084
And as they're walking up there.

506
00:27:16,125 --> 00:27:17,835
And Anissa tells Morgan.

507
00:27:18,165 --> 00:27:19,275
I tried to knock her out.

508
00:27:19,335 --> 00:27:20,385
I couldn't do it.

509
00:27:20,865 --> 00:27:21,975
I can't stab her.

510
00:27:21,975 --> 00:27:22,155
Now.

511
00:27:22,195 --> 00:27:22,625
Remember it.

512
00:27:22,635 --> 00:27:23,865
Nisa has the knife.

513
00:27:23,895 --> 00:27:28,065
It was transferred from Morgan to a
Nissa, uh, Nissa pretty much just saying

514
00:27:28,275 --> 00:27:29,835
I can't do it while she's conscious.

515
00:27:30,255 --> 00:27:32,265
So we failed.

516
00:27:32,505 --> 00:27:36,045
We got to move on and Morgan
says, well, give me the knife.

517
00:27:36,255 --> 00:27:37,155
I'll do it.

518
00:27:37,245 --> 00:27:40,575
But you have to be the
one to tell me when to go.

519
00:27:41,415 --> 00:27:44,475
So they transfer the knife again.

520
00:27:45,165 --> 00:27:47,355
They asked Peyton to lie on the ground.

521
00:27:47,685 --> 00:27:49,635
Again, she won't do it.

522
00:27:50,025 --> 00:27:54,045
So a Nissa pretends like
she's going off to count.

523
00:27:54,045 --> 00:27:55,545
So the other girls can go hide.

524
00:27:56,115 --> 00:27:59,025
And she then screams when
she's about five feet away.

525
00:27:59,415 --> 00:28:07,695
Do it now go ballistic and Morgan
tackles, Peyton and steps her 19 times.

526
00:28:09,075 --> 00:28:09,255
Sonia Meza-Leon: Hmm.

527
00:28:10,514 --> 00:28:11,145
Wow.

528
00:28:11,264 --> 00:28:13,334
And so Morgan sitting on top of her doing

529
00:28:13,635 --> 00:28:16,425
Brittney Sherman: yes, she is
straddling her around her legs.

530
00:28:16,935 --> 00:28:17,145
Sonia Meza-Leon: Wow.

531
00:28:18,854 --> 00:28:21,524
So it sounds like we've got 19 wounds.

532
00:28:22,125 --> 00:28:25,395
Uh, two wounds missed
major organs, one Mr.

533
00:28:25,395 --> 00:28:28,094
Hart, by less than a millimeter
and another one through her

534
00:28:28,094 --> 00:28:30,975
diaphragm, diaphragm cutting
into our liver and her stomach.

535
00:28:30,975 --> 00:28:32,834
So that was why she was
having issues breathing.

536
00:28:33,495 --> 00:28:34,245
And Peyton would

537
00:28:34,245 --> 00:28:38,294
Brittney Sherman: say that she didn't even
feel the pain when this was happening.

538
00:28:38,294 --> 00:28:41,084
She was in such shock as
to what was happening.

539
00:28:41,534 --> 00:28:42,764
It didn't even hurt.

540
00:28:42,824 --> 00:28:49,814
She was just so, so surprised that her
best friend was doing this to her and her

541
00:28:49,814 --> 00:28:52,635
body went into its own form of protection.

542
00:28:53,534 --> 00:28:56,685
After Morgan finished, and
Peyton was still conscious.

543
00:28:57,104 --> 00:29:03,104
Anisa told Peyton don't move and lay
flat because you will bleed less that.

544
00:29:04,590 --> 00:29:08,850
The girl, the two girls, uh,
then take off and leave the

545
00:29:08,850 --> 00:29:09,060
Sonia Meza-Leon: park.

546
00:29:09,629 --> 00:29:11,580
Well, important thing to remember.

547
00:29:11,610 --> 00:29:11,850
Yeah.

548
00:29:12,149 --> 00:29:15,870
They told Peyton that
they were going for help.

549
00:29:16,050 --> 00:29:16,830
Oh, that's right.

550
00:29:16,830 --> 00:29:17,820
I forgot about that part of that.

551
00:29:17,820 --> 00:29:18,960
They were going for help.

552
00:29:18,990 --> 00:29:23,550
So, and I'm not sure why they would tell
her that other than to keep her there

553
00:29:23,550 --> 00:29:25,290
so she wouldn't get help for herself.

554
00:29:25,710 --> 00:29:28,530
And because they're really,
the intention was to kill her.

555
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,230
Yes, this wasn't, the
intention was not to hurt her.

556
00:29:31,770 --> 00:29:33,600
It was to kill her, to take her life.

557
00:29:34,679 --> 00:29:35,070
So

558
00:29:35,070 --> 00:29:39,179
Brittney Sherman: the girls leave the
park with no intention to get help.

559
00:29:39,689 --> 00:29:45,030
And Peyton in an incredibly
brave act says, screw this.

560
00:29:45,210 --> 00:29:46,439
They just tried to kill me.

561
00:29:46,500 --> 00:29:51,480
I don't think they're going to get
help gets up and stumbles to a roadway,

562
00:29:51,960 --> 00:30:00,120
uh, at the edge of the park where a
bicyclist pulls over and sees her, uh,

563
00:30:00,210 --> 00:30:02,070
and then immediately calls for help.

564
00:30:04,085 --> 00:30:04,415
Hmm,

565
00:30:04,475 --> 00:30:06,935
Sonia Meza-Leon: which is surprising to
the police, of course, because I think

566
00:30:06,935 --> 00:30:10,685
that even though weird things seem to
happen in Wisconsin, whenever someone

567
00:30:10,685 --> 00:30:15,365
calls 9 1, 1, everybody's surprised how
could it happen in, uh, in Wisconsin

568
00:30:15,365 --> 00:30:19,865
or Wickersham, Waukesha, Waukesha,
even Peyton said that, you know, Hey, I

569
00:30:19,865 --> 00:30:21,064
thought it was fine going to the park.

570
00:30:21,064 --> 00:30:21,995
I thought nothing would happen.

571
00:30:21,995 --> 00:30:23,284
What's going to happen and walk a shop,

572
00:30:25,115 --> 00:30:28,955
Brittney Sherman: small town,
false sense of security, because

573
00:30:28,955 --> 00:30:30,845
nothing bad ever happens here.

574
00:30:30,995 --> 00:30:35,044
And watch us not your classic small town
that you usually hear these stories about.

575
00:30:35,044 --> 00:30:38,794
It's a decent size, but it's
in an, a, this was in an area

576
00:30:38,794 --> 00:30:40,925
where these things don't happen.

577
00:30:40,925 --> 00:30:44,554
And it's still not an area that has a
high, violent crime rate by any means.

578
00:30:44,975 --> 00:30:50,885
So I, I get it, but it's also very much,
I kind of feel like when I hear stories of

579
00:30:51,965 --> 00:30:57,795
people breaking into homes and violating
families, Uh, a big reason that happens

580
00:30:57,795 --> 00:31:00,765
is because the front door was left
unlocked or the windows are left open.

581
00:31:01,215 --> 00:31:04,485
So well, there's no
justification for that.

582
00:31:04,575 --> 00:31:07,995
It's providing an opening cause
there's this false sense of security.

583
00:31:08,115 --> 00:31:11,085
And I think that's kind of what
happened here, plus the fact

584
00:31:11,085 --> 00:31:12,315
of their 12 year old girls.

585
00:31:12,315 --> 00:31:14,505
So aren't thinking about the bad
things that could possibly have.

586
00:31:14,865 --> 00:31:18,045
Sonia Meza-Leon: I don't know if they
ever were that's what's um, you know, the

587
00:31:18,045 --> 00:31:21,465
interesting part of the case, as we'll see
a little bit later in the trial and the

588
00:31:21,465 --> 00:31:27,705
way the defense is going to, um, you know,
their angle on this case, um, because

589
00:31:27,705 --> 00:31:33,015
a lot of it is, you know, conveying
to, you know, the judge that, you know,

590
00:31:33,015 --> 00:31:36,315
were these girls because they were 12
year old responsible for their actions.

591
00:31:36,675 --> 00:31:38,445
Um, which we'll talk
about a little bit later.

592
00:31:38,865 --> 00:31:43,575
So the girls run off, no intention of
coming back, they leave they're bleeding.

593
00:31:44,475 --> 00:31:46,215
Friend laying on the ground.

594
00:31:46,455 --> 00:31:48,285
They don't think that
she's going to get up.

595
00:31:48,315 --> 00:31:50,205
They think she's probably
going to lay there and die.

596
00:31:50,745 --> 00:31:54,255
They are picked up what, five hours
later, walking down the highway.

597
00:31:54,615 --> 00:31:55,085
I don't even,

598
00:31:55,105 --> 00:31:57,675
Brittney Sherman: it might've
been, uh, but it wasn't that far.

599
00:31:57,675 --> 00:32:02,385
It was, they were picked up along I,
94 only, I think it was like a mile

600
00:32:02,385 --> 00:32:05,865
and a half or so from the crime scene,
because the originally planned to

601
00:32:05,865 --> 00:32:09,675
go back to Morgan's house to collect
their goods, throw it in a backpack

602
00:32:09,945 --> 00:32:15,765
and then walk up to Nicola national
park, which is 200 miles away.

603
00:32:15,885 --> 00:32:16,365
Right.

604
00:32:16,395 --> 00:32:23,235
So it's not a quick little John's these
girls clearly had no idea how far it was.

605
00:32:23,325 --> 00:32:26,655
So even though it was five hours, they
weren't very far from where it happened.

606
00:32:26,985 --> 00:32:27,405
Sonia Meza-Leon: Got it.

607
00:32:27,435 --> 00:32:27,945
Wow.

608
00:32:28,005 --> 00:32:28,695
That's crazy.

609
00:32:28,725 --> 00:32:31,725
Well, I mean, you have to, if
you're planning to walk 200

610
00:32:31,725 --> 00:32:34,025
miles, I mean, that would take
days and days and days and days.

611
00:32:34,665 --> 00:32:37,515
Brittney Sherman: I think they had any
idea that it was actually 200 miles.

612
00:32:37,725 --> 00:32:38,055
Wow.

613
00:32:38,085 --> 00:32:41,565
And by the way, I don't going through 94.

614
00:32:42,254 --> 00:32:43,635
Isn't going to get you to make a way

615
00:32:44,145 --> 00:32:46,725
Sonia Meza-Leon: we'll also,
where is the end game for them?

616
00:32:46,725 --> 00:32:49,485
Because there is no mansion, so
of whatever they're walking to,

617
00:32:49,485 --> 00:32:51,375
and they're not even going to find
any way they could walk all the

618
00:32:51,375 --> 00:32:52,544
way through this national park.

619
00:32:52,574 --> 00:32:52,635
It

620
00:32:52,635 --> 00:32:53,804
Brittney Sherman: wouldn't matter exactly.

621
00:32:53,804 --> 00:32:57,405
But to them, their end game was to get to
this mansion to live with slender, man.

622
00:32:57,435 --> 00:33:00,044
They didn't know because they
were so steadfast in their belief.

623
00:33:00,074 --> 00:33:00,915
This is real

624
00:33:00,975 --> 00:33:01,455
Sonia Meza-Leon: right.

625
00:33:01,725 --> 00:33:02,324
Exactly.

626
00:33:03,045 --> 00:33:06,885
So they get girls get picked up,
they get brought into the station.

627
00:33:06,945 --> 00:33:08,205
They both have blood on them.

628
00:33:08,535 --> 00:33:11,715
Um, not as much as I would have thought.

629
00:33:12,015 --> 00:33:17,955
And my guess is a lot of this is
because even when the bicyclist fines,

630
00:33:18,015 --> 00:33:23,895
um, Peyton and the 9 1, 1 operator
asked, you know, is there blood on her?

631
00:33:23,895 --> 00:33:24,855
And they, the guy.

632
00:33:25,990 --> 00:33:29,710
Sort of, you know, like, well,
there's blood on her clothes.

633
00:33:30,010 --> 00:33:34,330
It didn't sound to me like ne um,
Morgan had really stabbed her.

634
00:33:34,510 --> 00:33:36,580
I'm sure she stabbed her with 19 stabs.

635
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,850
I'm sure some of them were deeper than
others, but, um, you know, it didn't

636
00:33:39,850 --> 00:33:41,260
sound like she was bleeding profusely.

637
00:33:41,260 --> 00:33:42,130
She wasn't covered.

638
00:33:42,580 --> 00:33:43,630
Brittney Sherman: That's
exactly how I took it.

639
00:33:43,630 --> 00:33:47,830
And one of the detectives who met the
ambulance at the hospital essentially

640
00:33:47,830 --> 00:33:54,760
reported it as it was a girl who clearly
was in a lot of pain, but was alert and

641
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:56,530
in better condition than she expected.

642
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,170
Peyton immediately went
into emergency surgery.

643
00:33:59,500 --> 00:34:05,230
And the most dangerous stab wound
was a millimeter from a key artery

644
00:34:05,230 --> 00:34:08,199
that had that been nixed would have
caused her to have a heart attack.

645
00:34:08,409 --> 00:34:13,240
So she was very fortunate that she
survived and, uh, while she was in

646
00:34:13,240 --> 00:34:17,860
surgery, of course the girls were
picked up and the formal investigation.

647
00:34:20,100 --> 00:34:24,060
Sonia Meza-Leon: So you will probably
find an, I suggest you take a look at it.

648
00:34:24,060 --> 00:34:25,470
There's a lot of video.

649
00:34:25,500 --> 00:34:31,050
Um, they interviewed or interrogated
these two girls as is legal in Wisconsin.

650
00:34:31,410 --> 00:34:36,180
Um, if you're, I think over the
age of 10 or something like that.

651
00:34:36,180 --> 00:34:36,330
Yeah.

652
00:34:36,330 --> 00:34:39,570
You're allowed to interview children
without their parents in the room.

653
00:34:40,860 --> 00:34:41,670
Yeah, it's crazy.

654
00:34:41,670 --> 00:34:42,390
Brittney Sherman: It is crazy.

655
00:34:42,390 --> 00:34:47,070
And that makes me rethink about
the whole Brendan Dassey situation.

656
00:34:47,490 --> 00:34:48,540
Did that happen to Wisconsin?

657
00:34:49,650 --> 00:34:51,240
That was another, that's
another one from Wisconsin.

658
00:34:51,240 --> 00:34:52,080
That was from Manitowoc.

659
00:34:52,470 --> 00:34:55,290
Uh, but I didn't even think about that.

660
00:34:55,590 --> 00:34:59,310
Um, yeah, so I didn't
realize that that was legal.

661
00:34:59,310 --> 00:35:00,330
I don't understand how

662
00:35:00,330 --> 00:35:01,260
Sonia Meza-Leon: that's legal.

663
00:35:01,710 --> 00:35:06,180
Well, that was one of the, well,
the Brendan Dassey case, I think

664
00:35:06,180 --> 00:35:07,470
that was one of their appeals.

665
00:35:07,470 --> 00:35:11,010
They base their appeal on him being
interviewed without his parents.

666
00:35:11,010 --> 00:35:13,620
Exactly what that law would have
been effective then are they.

667
00:35:14,310 --> 00:35:17,130
You wouldn't have had that
appeal even occurring.

668
00:35:17,430 --> 00:35:20,640
So it must've been a little different
at some, maybe that was a while back.

669
00:35:20,870 --> 00:35:21,180
Brittney Sherman: Yeah.

670
00:35:21,509 --> 00:35:22,740
I mean, yeah, maybe.

671
00:35:22,740 --> 00:35:27,060
I mean, that was like 2005 or maybe the
reason his appeal was unsuccessful was

672
00:35:27,060 --> 00:35:28,980
because of that, but regardless that's

673
00:35:28,980 --> 00:35:29,130
Sonia Meza-Leon: okay.

674
00:35:29,910 --> 00:35:30,330
Yep.

675
00:35:30,660 --> 00:35:34,770
So I, um, I spent a bit of time
watching the interrogations.

676
00:35:34,770 --> 00:35:36,930
I thought they were
really interesting and.

677
00:35:37,830 --> 00:35:41,190
From the point of view, uh, the
psychological point of view, I think

678
00:35:41,220 --> 00:35:45,480
whenever you're looking at child
development and the way that the brain

679
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:51,300
works and what you can expect from a
twelve-year-old, um, varies greatly.

680
00:35:51,660 --> 00:35:55,170
I did note a couple of things that I
thought were really interesting that were

681
00:35:55,170 --> 00:35:57,480
said, um, that I'm going to read to you.

682
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,480
And I saw, again, these
are the interrogations.

683
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:02,790
They actually, you know,
shot video of these.

684
00:36:02,940 --> 00:36:06,600
So it's clear that the girls are speaking,
the words are coming out of their mouth.

685
00:36:06,810 --> 00:36:10,650
And, um, they're also, you, you can
see how they're conveying this message.

686
00:36:11,130 --> 00:36:13,470
Uh, the first one I'm going to
read is something that I thought

687
00:36:13,470 --> 00:36:14,880
really was very interesting.

688
00:36:15,210 --> 00:36:17,400
Um, and these are from,
this is from Morgan.

689
00:36:17,940 --> 00:36:23,100
Uh, the police officer asked Morgan,
did you feel bad that you stabbed one of

690
00:36:23,100 --> 00:36:30,900
your best friends and Morgan's response,
um, was, and just to be clear, these two

691
00:36:30,900 --> 00:36:37,125
girls and the way that they communicated
this information to me, Very strange.

692
00:36:37,215 --> 00:36:39,345
And there were times when they
were upset about what they were

693
00:36:39,345 --> 00:36:42,315
saying, but they weren't upset
about, well, let me rephrase that.

694
00:36:43,005 --> 00:36:49,095
They were upset about things that were,
may have happened around the, the case

695
00:36:49,095 --> 00:36:51,345
or the crime, but not the crime itself.

696
00:36:51,705 --> 00:36:54,525
And, you know, she, Nisa was upset
that her parents were scared,

697
00:36:55,245 --> 00:36:58,185
but nobody was scared or nobody
was worried about this girl.

698
00:36:58,575 --> 00:37:02,265
Um, so when Morgan was asked that
question, did you feel bad that you

699
00:37:02,265 --> 00:37:03,674
stabbed one of your best friends?

700
00:37:04,005 --> 00:37:05,145
That her answer was?

701
00:37:05,205 --> 00:37:08,805
I thought about it, but then I
thought remorse would get me nowhere.

702
00:37:09,075 --> 00:37:10,725
It's easier to live without regret.

703
00:37:12,045 --> 00:37:17,235
Now, if you don't know that these girls
have some mental issues, this is when you

704
00:37:17,235 --> 00:37:19,485
start really, really hating these grills.

705
00:37:19,665 --> 00:37:23,535
It almost seems like they're evil, you
know, and of course we realize later

706
00:37:23,535 --> 00:37:26,325
that they've got some mental defects
and that's part of their defense.

707
00:37:26,625 --> 00:37:29,955
But when you watch a 12 year old
girl say something like that, and

708
00:37:29,955 --> 00:37:34,725
it comes out of her mouth, obviously
something's wrong, but there's still

709
00:37:34,725 --> 00:37:37,995
a shock to hearing it and seeing
someone deliver that kind of message.

710
00:37:38,265 --> 00:37:39,795
Um, she really did not care.

711
00:37:40,755 --> 00:37:46,185
Brittney Sherman: And I really felt, and I
didn't watch, I watched the interrogations

712
00:37:46,185 --> 00:37:51,915
before I knew about what happened at the
end of the trial and their sentencing.

713
00:37:52,455 --> 00:37:56,385
So watching Morgan, I felt like
I was watching evil incarnate.

714
00:37:56,655 --> 00:37:57,765
This is Damien.

715
00:37:57,795 --> 00:38:01,755
This is someone who has no remorse and.

716
00:38:03,345 --> 00:38:06,825
Really there's no hope for it was scary

717
00:38:06,825 --> 00:38:07,545
Sonia Meza-Leon: watching her.

718
00:38:07,575 --> 00:38:08,565
Yeah, definitely.

719
00:38:08,565 --> 00:38:10,275
And that's what really
affected me the most.

720
00:38:10,515 --> 00:38:13,665
And there are moments in some
of the interviews with Morgan's

721
00:38:13,665 --> 00:38:18,944
mother, where she tells a story
of taking Morgan to the movies.

722
00:38:19,255 --> 00:38:23,595
And this is when she realized that Morgan
didn't have the ability to have remorse.

723
00:38:23,924 --> 00:38:29,205
Um, they took her to see Bambi and
when the mom dies, you know, sorry

724
00:38:29,205 --> 00:38:36,105
to blow it for anybody, he goes, see
Bambi, but boiler, the mother dies.

725
00:38:36,435 --> 00:38:39,225
Uh, she, she, she felt nothing.

726
00:38:39,255 --> 00:38:42,225
You know, she's there told her
mom get out of there and why

727
00:38:42,225 --> 00:38:43,424
is he still standing there?

728
00:38:43,424 --> 00:38:44,595
He should be running.

729
00:38:44,835 --> 00:38:45,105
You know?

730
00:38:45,105 --> 00:38:48,585
So that was just, you know, again, the
mom's first indication that there was

731
00:38:48,585 --> 00:38:54,220
something not quite right about with
her ability to be able to, um, You know,

732
00:38:54,220 --> 00:38:56,710
and have empathy as a normal child.

733
00:38:56,890 --> 00:38:58,060
And this was when she was probably

734
00:38:58,060 --> 00:39:01,210
Brittney Sherman: five, probably so, and
I think there was a, really a dichotomy

735
00:39:01,210 --> 00:39:06,460
between the two interrogations of
Morgan and Annisa Morgan came across.

736
00:39:06,820 --> 00:39:09,280
Uh, well, she was cold.

737
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:11,980
I think she came across as still emotive.

738
00:39:11,980 --> 00:39:16,060
And at one point getting very
angry and frustrated because the

739
00:39:16,060 --> 00:39:18,790
detective kept asking her the
same questions over and over.

740
00:39:18,970 --> 00:39:22,540
And her response became, I already told
you, what else do you want me to say?

741
00:39:22,750 --> 00:39:26,110
And he said, I need you to make
sure our, I need to make sure that

742
00:39:26,110 --> 00:39:27,250
I'm getting all the information.

743
00:39:27,250 --> 00:39:27,460
Right.

744
00:39:27,670 --> 00:39:28,750
Well, nothing has changed.

745
00:39:28,750 --> 00:39:29,710
I already told you.

746
00:39:29,980 --> 00:39:31,300
And she also started to Pintu.

747
00:39:32,250 --> 00:39:37,080
Pin some of the blame onto
a Nissa and essentially say

748
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,420
that this was a niece's idea.

749
00:39:39,690 --> 00:39:41,400
Had a Nissa did not been around.

750
00:39:41,460 --> 00:39:45,060
She probably wouldn't have done
this now in the other interrogation

751
00:39:45,060 --> 00:39:48,540
room, uh, Nisa showed no emotion.

752
00:39:48,870 --> 00:39:50,720
She was totally flat.

753
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,270
Sonia Meza-Leon: She showed a motion
motion once when her, they, when she

754
00:39:54,270 --> 00:39:56,190
said, you know, how are my parents?

755
00:39:56,190 --> 00:39:58,140
And then she was, she
was worried about them.

756
00:39:58,830 --> 00:40:00,300
And then what are they scared?

757
00:40:00,630 --> 00:40:03,450
And then she started to cry, you know?

758
00:40:03,510 --> 00:40:03,930
Yes.

759
00:40:04,460 --> 00:40:06,300
Lisa was the toughest one for me.

760
00:40:06,660 --> 00:40:09,180
Um, but I'm gonna read
one more for Morgan.

761
00:40:09,180 --> 00:40:09,330
Okay.

762
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:09,720
Go for it.

763
00:40:09,720 --> 00:40:10,890
I thought that I've got one for my niece.

764
00:40:10,890 --> 00:40:12,150
I thought it was really kooky.

765
00:40:12,450 --> 00:40:17,430
So Morgan, again, then asked
the police officer, is she dead?

766
00:40:17,490 --> 00:40:20,280
And she's referring to Peyton,
which they also called Bella.

767
00:40:21,030 --> 00:40:24,840
Uh, the police officer's response
was, I don't know, she was

768
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:26,850
taken to the hospital and then.

769
00:40:27,720 --> 00:40:28,620
Morgan.

770
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:30,840
I watched this interrogation.

771
00:40:30,870 --> 00:40:33,840
It's the most fascinating
piece of it's a flash.

772
00:40:33,900 --> 00:40:37,560
It's not that many frames, but
when he says, I don't know,

773
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,029
she was taken to the hospital.

774
00:40:39,210 --> 00:40:44,370
Morgan is leaning her chin and she's
kind of sitting backwards on a chair.

775
00:40:44,670 --> 00:40:49,140
And when he responds and says
that she almost does a double-take

776
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,920
like, she kind of goes, whoa,
you know, she didn't catch that.

777
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:53,100
Yeah.

778
00:40:53,100 --> 00:40:54,029
You have to take a look at it.

779
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:55,860
I'm going to spawn surprise.

780
00:40:55,860 --> 00:40:56,490
She's like, huh?

781
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:57,000
Yeah.

782
00:40:57,509 --> 00:40:58,049
What?

783
00:40:58,410 --> 00:40:59,549
And then she says, huh?

784
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:00,779
I was just wondering.

785
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:01,200
Yup.

786
00:41:01,830 --> 00:41:06,600
And it's kinda like she said,
I was just wondering so weird.

787
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,410
I have a niece who's seven or eight
and highly intelligent and sometimes.

788
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,420
I can't grasp why she says things, but
she says things that are very adult that

789
00:41:15,420 --> 00:41:19,290
I'm like, wow, you know, it's crazy not
comparing my knees to this at all, but,

790
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:24,480
um, it's shocking to hear a person who
at a young age respond in a way like

791
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:28,710
this and then dismiss her own reaction.

792
00:41:28,950 --> 00:41:33,150
Like she's trying to cover up or
trying to, you know, nevermind.

793
00:41:33,180 --> 00:41:34,230
I wasn't really serious.

794
00:41:34,230 --> 00:41:39,420
Or, you know, I was just wondering
it's so, you know, again, when you

795
00:41:39,420 --> 00:41:45,660
realize that she's got some real mental
issues, it doesn't dismiss this, the

796
00:41:45,660 --> 00:41:49,770
impression that you get that she's
calculated in a way that is shocking.

797
00:41:49,980 --> 00:41:52,710
And I think that's what you mean when
you're like evil in Carney, right?

798
00:41:53,340 --> 00:41:57,480
Because you've got a person who
appears to have a Berry good.

799
00:41:57,660 --> 00:41:58,540
They feel, they appear.

800
00:41:59,655 --> 00:42:04,425
Board almost doesn't appear like
she's taking this seriously at all.

801
00:42:04,605 --> 00:42:07,935
And then getting frustrated with the
interrogators because of the police

802
00:42:07,935 --> 00:42:11,505
officers, like they're bothering
her, like they're wasting her time.

803
00:42:11,745 --> 00:42:13,005
It's so strange.

804
00:42:13,005 --> 00:42:20,295
And in the interview with Morgan's mother,
she says herself, that's not my daughter.

805
00:42:20,325 --> 00:42:21,525
She doesn't talk like that.

806
00:42:22,065 --> 00:42:24,195
And, and even that was really strange.

807
00:42:24,555 --> 00:42:28,410
Um, so, you know, Let's
take a look at the video.

808
00:42:28,620 --> 00:42:32,339
It's a split second that it
happens, but she's sitting there.

809
00:42:32,339 --> 00:42:34,230
She hears his response.

810
00:42:34,379 --> 00:42:37,650
She like looks over at him
startled and she's like, okay.

811
00:42:37,740 --> 00:42:40,950
I was just wondering, um, almost
like trying to come in and throw him

812
00:42:40,950 --> 00:42:44,730
off the, off the trail of Irv her
response, because you can clearly

813
00:42:44,730 --> 00:42:46,560
see it in the video, but it's quick.

814
00:42:46,710 --> 00:42:47,069
Okay.

815
00:42:47,129 --> 00:42:48,810
I'll have to, I'll have to
rewatch it to look at it.

816
00:42:49,230 --> 00:42:51,690
Brittney Sherman: So then in the
other room where Annisa is being

817
00:42:51,690 --> 00:42:58,319
interrogated, uh, at one point she says
the detective, can I ask you a question?

818
00:42:59,009 --> 00:43:02,940
And the detective said, and it's
really quite obvious on her face.

819
00:43:03,509 --> 00:43:07,470
The question she's expecting
to hear, which is, is Peyton.

820
00:43:07,470 --> 00:43:08,009
Okay?

821
00:43:08,009 --> 00:43:09,270
Is Peyton alive?

822
00:43:09,450 --> 00:43:10,560
Did she die?

823
00:43:11,430 --> 00:43:14,400
Instead of Nisa says, how far did I walk?

824
00:43:15,150 --> 00:43:16,470
Because I'm not very athletic.

825
00:43:17,190 --> 00:43:18,660
So I'm just wondering.

826
00:43:21,165 --> 00:43:25,095
The detective is totally
taken out of the moment.

827
00:43:25,095 --> 00:43:28,275
Like, why do you care about this?

828
00:43:28,765 --> 00:43:29,125
And

829
00:43:29,955 --> 00:43:31,725
Sonia Meza-Leon: it just shows
you what she doesn't care about.

830
00:43:32,565 --> 00:43:34,185
I think that's the reality of it.

831
00:43:34,185 --> 00:43:38,685
And that's, I think the downfall of
an ISA, because, and I don't know what

832
00:43:38,685 --> 00:43:43,154
her diagnosis was, you know, both of
these folks, you know, had some issues,

833
00:43:43,154 --> 00:43:49,214
but, um, you know, I think it, to
me, it felt more like Morgan had some

834
00:43:49,245 --> 00:43:51,045
more severe issues than an ISA did.

835
00:43:51,225 --> 00:43:51,975
Yes, definitely.

836
00:43:52,005 --> 00:43:55,214
Brittney Sherman: Well, we'll talk
about their diagnosis diagnoses shortly.

837
00:43:55,634 --> 00:44:00,075
Uh, the one thing that I found to be
the most striking difference between

838
00:44:00,075 --> 00:44:06,525
Morgan and Anissa is that Anessa was
willing to accept full responsibility.

839
00:44:06,674 --> 00:44:08,654
She would say, yes, I did this.

840
00:44:09,015 --> 00:44:10,845
I am guilty of doing it.

841
00:44:10,904 --> 00:44:13,275
I have no problem saying it.

842
00:44:13,275 --> 00:44:13,424
Yeah.

843
00:44:13,455 --> 00:44:14,295
Morgan did it too.

844
00:44:15,450 --> 00:44:21,330
It was me and Morgan was trying to
shift a lot of blame off of her.

845
00:44:21,779 --> 00:44:25,770
And she was very defensive and trying
to pin more of it onto a Nissa.

846
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:26,550
Sonia Meza-Leon: Hm.

847
00:44:27,540 --> 00:44:30,870
Well, I mean, in some ways Morgan's
right, because none of it would've

848
00:44:30,870 --> 00:44:35,250
happened if it wasn't for Nissa, but
at the end of the day, I think everyone

849
00:44:35,250 --> 00:44:37,200
agrees that Morgan actually stabbed her.

850
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:38,759
So there's no way around it.

851
00:44:39,029 --> 00:44:42,779
I do find it really strange that
to me, when they say a Nissa

852
00:44:42,779 --> 00:44:46,890
says, you know, go crazy, go
ballistic or go bezerk or whatever.

853
00:44:46,890 --> 00:44:50,610
She said, that sounds like something
someone would say out of frustration,

854
00:44:50,670 --> 00:44:52,350
like, just get it over already.

855
00:44:52,350 --> 00:44:56,759
Like I'm tired of this, you know, I
don't want to do it, just do it over it.

856
00:44:56,759 --> 00:45:00,690
Like guts go, you know, that's what
I felt like that that really meant.

857
00:45:00,930 --> 00:45:03,420
And not that she was like
ordering her to do something.

858
00:45:03,420 --> 00:45:06,060
It was just like, just fricking
do, just get it over with

859
00:45:06,090 --> 00:45:07,710
just tired of waiting around.

860
00:45:07,710 --> 00:45:07,950
Yeah.

861
00:45:07,980 --> 00:45:09,420
We've been planning this for six months.

862
00:45:09,420 --> 00:45:10,080
It's just go.

863
00:45:10,860 --> 00:45:13,890
I have one more thing that, yeah,
I want to mention that ENISA

864
00:45:13,890 --> 00:45:18,779
says, and I, this is where I get
a little caught up in motivation.

865
00:45:19,170 --> 00:45:25,799
Um, and the, the angle that they were
driven by this fantasy of slender, man,

866
00:45:26,490 --> 00:45:30,930
obviously everyone who's looking at
this case thinks of these, both of these

867
00:45:30,930 --> 00:45:34,650
girls really believe that the slender
man character was going to hurt them.

868
00:45:34,650 --> 00:45:36,540
And that's why they
decided to hurt Peyton.

869
00:45:36,930 --> 00:45:40,980
But one of the things that Annisa
said that threw me off in, in this,

870
00:45:41,220 --> 00:45:45,210
when speaking about funds spent
slender, man, um, you know, the police

871
00:45:45,210 --> 00:45:48,029
officer asked her, you know, what is
slender man, who was slender, man.

872
00:45:48,299 --> 00:45:52,680
And Aneesa's response was there's
this website, creepy pasta Wiki,

873
00:45:52,710 --> 00:45:57,540
it's full of like horror stories that
are meant to purposely scare you.

874
00:45:58,350 --> 00:45:58,799
So she

875
00:45:58,799 --> 00:45:59,370
Brittney Sherman: knew.

876
00:46:00,705 --> 00:46:03,944
Sonia Meza-Leon: So this is where
like, kind of I'm like, Hmm.

877
00:46:04,245 --> 00:46:07,515
Well, if you're describing what
Slenderman is, and you're saying to

878
00:46:07,515 --> 00:46:12,225
the police officer that the basis
of this website and this information

879
00:46:12,225 --> 00:46:14,745
is to actually purposely scare you.

880
00:46:15,375 --> 00:46:19,125
I feel like in saying that she had
some understanding that it wasn't real,

881
00:46:19,665 --> 00:46:21,705
Brittney Sherman: I would agree.

882
00:46:22,095 --> 00:46:22,725
Uh,

883
00:46:24,105 --> 00:46:24,404
Sonia Meza-Leon: okay.

884
00:46:24,464 --> 00:46:26,895
So we're going to

885
00:46:27,495 --> 00:46:30,015
Brittney Sherman: quickly, I'm
going to quickly gloss over

886
00:46:30,225 --> 00:46:31,725
what ultimately happened next.

887
00:46:31,725 --> 00:46:36,285
So the girls are sentenced to,
or excuse me, not sentence are

888
00:46:36,315 --> 00:46:42,525
placed into a hold a prison hold
for almost two and a half years.

889
00:46:42,765 --> 00:46:48,645
And Morgan's mom would describe
it as almost solitary confinement.

890
00:46:48,674 --> 00:46:53,025
They were allowed to have visitors,
but they only had one hour of

891
00:46:54,015 --> 00:46:56,384
outside daylight time a week.

892
00:46:58,425 --> 00:47:05,115
So the girls really were in pretty
terrible circumstances and quarters

893
00:47:05,235 --> 00:47:07,065
while they were waiting to go to court.

894
00:47:07,905 --> 00:47:12,945
So they finally went to court
in, uh, early 2017, or was

895
00:47:12,945 --> 00:47:14,475
it some early 17 or late 16?

896
00:47:15,015 --> 00:47:18,345
Sonia Meza-Leon: They were in jail
or in holding for three years.

897
00:47:18,405 --> 00:47:18,915
And that would have been

898
00:47:18,915 --> 00:47:19,395
Brittney Sherman: 17.

899
00:47:19,875 --> 00:47:25,755
So they go to court, uh, Nisa
was the first one to go and she,

900
00:47:26,145 --> 00:47:29,115
uh, right openly said guilty.

901
00:47:29,475 --> 00:47:33,525
She admitted her guilt and
pleaded guilty right away.

902
00:47:33,915 --> 00:47:39,735
Now most of the time that's an open
and shut case and it goes immediately

903
00:47:39,735 --> 00:47:41,625
to the sentencing portion of it.

904
00:47:42,165 --> 00:47:44,475
Sonia Meza-Leon: Now there's something
in between here that happens.

905
00:47:44,505 --> 00:47:44,715
Okay.

906
00:47:44,745 --> 00:47:45,135
Go for it.

907
00:47:45,915 --> 00:47:48,195
There's a decision to try
these two girls as adults.

908
00:47:48,585 --> 00:47:49,035
That's key.

909
00:47:49,065 --> 00:47:50,325
This is really important.

910
00:47:50,325 --> 00:47:53,385
And this was the most
devastating blow to the defense.

911
00:47:53,415 --> 00:47:55,365
When the judge said, no,
we're going to try them as.

912
00:47:56,655 --> 00:48:03,765
And I have to say, I agree with his
decision because the thought of these

913
00:48:03,765 --> 00:48:11,505
girls spending, if this was 2017,
that would've made them 16, 7, 15, 15.

914
00:48:11,865 --> 00:48:15,945
So that means in three years when they
were 18, they would have gotten out.

915
00:48:16,335 --> 00:48:21,885
So if they were treated as juveniles now,
and the parents of course were adamant

916
00:48:21,885 --> 00:48:23,385
that this is the right thing to do.

917
00:48:23,385 --> 00:48:26,025
And, you know, there were children
and you shouldn't held them

918
00:48:26,025 --> 00:48:27,465
accountable for their actions.

919
00:48:27,495 --> 00:48:29,475
And this is where I
slightly, it slightly agree.

920
00:48:29,835 --> 00:48:32,715
And I see the point of
view of Peyton's parents.

921
00:48:33,195 --> 00:48:38,445
And I think that this is probably the
most important part and why the judge

922
00:48:38,805 --> 00:48:42,225
said number one, that they were going
to be tried as adults, because certainly

923
00:48:42,225 --> 00:48:46,995
that he didn't want them out at 18 years
of age, because I don't think that he

924
00:48:46,995 --> 00:48:48,495
thought that they were ready for that.

925
00:48:49,275 --> 00:48:53,955
I don't think that they would be
much better by 18 and most important.

926
00:48:53,955 --> 00:48:57,795
And I think this is where I really appeal
to the victim's side of this cases.

927
00:48:58,215 --> 00:49:01,725
Would Taylor have been safe if
those two got out when they were

928
00:49:01,725 --> 00:49:04,095
18, would Taylor have been safe?

929
00:49:04,455 --> 00:49:05,745
I don't think so.

930
00:49:06,285 --> 00:49:09,765
This gets into, or if I was Taylor,
I'd say I'm not going to be saying.

931
00:49:09,915 --> 00:49:10,395
Yeah.

932
00:49:10,425 --> 00:49:10,995
Brittney Sherman: Oh, certainly.

933
00:49:10,995 --> 00:49:14,925
I think, uh, I would believe
that, uh, Taylor, Peyton,

934
00:49:14,985 --> 00:49:15,915
Sonia Meza-Leon: Peyton, sorry.

935
00:49:17,205 --> 00:49:17,505
Brittney Sherman: You know what?

936
00:49:17,505 --> 00:49:18,525
I kept doing that too.

937
00:49:19,125 --> 00:49:21,315
I kept on, I dunno why I kept
on thinking it was Taylor.

938
00:49:21,915 --> 00:49:26,715
Uh, so yeah, I would believe that Peyton
would not feel that she would be safe.

939
00:49:27,165 --> 00:49:31,154
I want to have an honest conversation
about mental health once we finish

940
00:49:31,185 --> 00:49:32,265
getting through the details.

941
00:49:32,415 --> 00:49:32,745
Okay.

942
00:49:32,895 --> 00:49:36,165
So they are, uh, tried in adult.

943
00:49:36,945 --> 00:49:38,325
Anisa pleased guilty.

944
00:49:38,595 --> 00:49:43,875
Instead of going immediately to
the sentencing phase, the court

945
00:49:43,935 --> 00:49:48,165
orders her to me evaluated by two
psychologists, and then she has

946
00:49:48,165 --> 00:49:50,325
her own psychologist evaluate her.

947
00:49:51,015 --> 00:49:57,315
And the findings of all three
psychologists is that a Nissa

948
00:49:57,405 --> 00:50:02,445
suffers from a very rare condition
and probably going to butcher this.

949
00:50:02,445 --> 00:50:04,935
But I pride myself on
getting medical terms, right.

950
00:50:06,105 --> 00:50:09,075
Yeah, you do gets Octa piece gets outta B.

951
00:50:09,165 --> 00:50:18,735
I don't know how to skitzo to feed
thoughts or, or showing schizotypal

952
00:50:18,855 --> 00:50:20,055
I know that's pronounced right.

953
00:50:20,384 --> 00:50:21,715
Schizotypal behavior,

954
00:50:21,735 --> 00:50:22,065
Sonia Meza-Leon: right?

955
00:50:22,215 --> 00:50:23,625
Friends, fans out there.

956
00:50:23,685 --> 00:50:24,375
Look it up.

957
00:50:25,245 --> 00:50:26,895
How to pronounce Scrabble word for me,

958
00:50:28,665 --> 00:50:32,835
Brittney Sherman: but essentially what
that, it's a, it's a theoretical diagnosis

959
00:50:32,865 --> 00:50:37,485
and it's a spectrum that essentially has
all sorts of things that kind of feed

960
00:50:37,485 --> 00:50:39,765
into it that can lead to that diagnosis.

961
00:50:40,065 --> 00:50:47,565
And one of the things is a delusion and
it was very clear to the psychologist

962
00:50:47,595 --> 00:50:51,884
that despite what we just talked
about, uh, Nisa was delusional and

963
00:50:51,884 --> 00:50:54,195
believed Slenderman to be true.

964
00:50:54,195 --> 00:50:57,975
And the threats that she
concocted in her head to be true.

965
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:08,189
Also one of the things that are on this
schizotypal spectrum is almost like a

966
00:51:08,189 --> 00:51:15,209
transference of a mental health condition
from one person to the other while

967
00:51:15,209 --> 00:51:17,160
you're spending so much time with them.

968
00:51:18,810 --> 00:51:19,290
What?

969
00:51:19,350 --> 00:51:21,839
Yes, I know I had never
heard of that RACI.

970
00:51:21,839 --> 00:51:22,080
Do you

971
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:24,419
Sonia Meza-Leon: mean
you can catch a mental

972
00:51:24,419 --> 00:51:24,930
Brittney Sherman: condition?

973
00:51:25,049 --> 00:51:31,709
That's what the argument and that's kind
of what I understand this diagnosis to be

974
00:51:31,919 --> 00:51:33,149
Sonia Meza-Leon: boy, this really changes.

975
00:51:34,020 --> 00:51:38,460
Where I'm, you know, my future
employment, I'll be a lot more careful.

976
00:51:40,500 --> 00:51:41,549
Holy cow.

977
00:51:41,609 --> 00:51:42,509
We're at risk.

978
00:51:44,100 --> 00:51:51,720
Brittney Sherman: So ultimately she
is found not guilty by a mental defect

979
00:51:51,750 --> 00:51:56,430
or mental disease or defect as opposed
to guilty of second degree murder as

980
00:51:56,430 --> 00:52:00,420
she originally pleaded guilty to and

981
00:52:00,779 --> 00:52:02,790
Sonia Meza-Leon: considered
second degree attempted murder.

982
00:52:03,089 --> 00:52:03,450
Brittney Sherman: I'm sorry.

983
00:52:03,720 --> 00:52:04,109
Yes.

984
00:52:04,799 --> 00:52:10,200
And considering that she was not the one
to carry out the act, the maximum sentence

985
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:16,770
that she could be, it could be handed
down to her was 25 years in treatment in

986
00:52:16,770 --> 00:52:19,319
a psychological or psychiatric hospital.

987
00:52:20,609 --> 00:52:27,600
No, Morgan becomes a little more
complicated because Morgan has family

988
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:29,700
lineage, particularly her father.

989
00:52:29,700 --> 00:52:31,080
And I'm not sure if it's before that.

990
00:52:32,010 --> 00:52:39,090
Of schizophrenia and schizophrenia
can be, uh, handed or passed down

991
00:52:39,450 --> 00:52:45,780
so much so that her mother said that
they were never sure about having kids

992
00:52:46,380 --> 00:52:48,270
and they weren't ready for Morgan.

993
00:52:48,270 --> 00:52:55,740
When she got pregnant schizophrenia
typically presents itself in people in

994
00:52:55,740 --> 00:52:58,380
their upper twenties, early thirties.

995
00:52:58,560 --> 00:52:59,820
So later on in life, it

996
00:52:59,820 --> 00:53:00,660
Sonia Meza-Leon: goes on through the rest

997
00:53:00,660 --> 00:53:02,130
Brittney Sherman: of their life
and then goes on through the rest

998
00:53:02,130 --> 00:53:04,710
of their life to varying degrees.

999
00:53:04,710 --> 00:53:07,620
And schizophrenia is also
something that is on a spectrum.

1000
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:11,370
Some people, uh, the most common,
what you hear is that people will

1001
00:53:11,370 --> 00:53:15,420
say that they hear voices and
people telling them to do things.

1002
00:53:15,630 --> 00:53:20,850
The example that Morgan's father
used is he was cognitively aware

1003
00:53:20,850 --> 00:53:24,420
that the things that he felt were
happening weren't happening, but

1004
00:53:24,420 --> 00:53:25,920
he couldn't do anything about it.

1005
00:53:25,980 --> 00:53:26,340
Right?

1006
00:53:26,610 --> 00:53:29,250
Like he would, he used the
description of, he would be drawing.

1007
00:53:30,255 --> 00:53:34,695
And feel that a ghost was
behind him in the car.

1008
00:53:34,965 --> 00:53:40,635
Now his cognitive brain knew
there was no ghost and it wasn't

1009
00:53:40,635 --> 00:53:47,715
a threat, but the disease still
convinced him there's a ghost.

1010
00:53:48,045 --> 00:53:52,785
So ultimately the disease would win
those battles between the cognitive

1011
00:53:52,785 --> 00:53:54,165
brain and the diseased brain.

1012
00:53:55,005 --> 00:53:57,645
Sonia Meza-Leon: So this is something
that since I don't have schizophrenia,

1013
00:53:57,645 --> 00:54:01,965
I have a really hard time, you know,
understanding, um, I understand

1014
00:54:01,995 --> 00:54:06,165
how it works, but the feeling of
it, it's hard for me to connect to.

1015
00:54:07,425 --> 00:54:09,945
I don't know if I've
ever felt that sensation.

1016
00:54:10,425 --> 00:54:15,135
Um, where, I mean, God, I don't know.

1017
00:54:15,135 --> 00:54:17,115
I don't know if I've
ever felt that sensation.

1018
00:54:18,420 --> 00:54:19,230
In my life.

1019
00:54:19,259 --> 00:54:22,859
So it's hard for me to understand
that, but I appreciate that there

1020
00:54:22,859 --> 00:54:26,069
are things about the human brain that
drives people to think certain things

1021
00:54:26,069 --> 00:54:28,200
or works against itself, per se.

1022
00:54:28,620 --> 00:54:32,460
And, um, that's the piece of this
that I thought was really, um,

1023
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:35,759
I mean, I, I have to be honest,
I think this case is really sad.

1024
00:54:35,879 --> 00:54:37,080
It's sad for a lot of reasons.

1025
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:41,399
It's sad because you've got 12 year
old girls who have some mental issues.

1026
00:54:41,940 --> 00:54:43,950
A lot of people will say, Hey,
you know, they shouldn't have

1027
00:54:43,950 --> 00:54:44,670
been looking at the internet.

1028
00:54:44,700 --> 00:54:45,990
It was the internet, it was the internet.

1029
00:54:46,410 --> 00:54:47,970
I don't think so.

1030
00:54:48,240 --> 00:54:52,470
Um, I think that there are things about
the internet that definitely need to be

1031
00:54:52,470 --> 00:54:54,480
monitored, especially with young children.

1032
00:54:54,779 --> 00:54:57,870
But, um, I don't think the
internet causes problem.

1033
00:54:58,319 --> 00:55:01,259
The other thing that I think is
interesting about this is that.

1034
00:55:02,490 --> 00:55:06,390
And sad, really sad when you watch
the beware of Slenderman documentary,

1035
00:55:06,390 --> 00:55:11,100
the HBO documentary, which I thought
was a really great, um, as it, in

1036
00:55:11,100 --> 00:55:12,360
the way that it told the story.

1037
00:55:12,540 --> 00:55:15,330
And even this, the filmmaker says,
you know, this isn't a, who done it,

1038
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:18,840
this isn't about who did it, or how,
or why it's all black and white.

1039
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:22,740
It's about the psychology of this
and trying to understand how children

1040
00:55:22,740 --> 00:55:25,290
develop and how to help these situations.

1041
00:55:25,500 --> 00:55:28,050
And is there anything we can
do to avoid it in the future?

1042
00:55:28,380 --> 00:55:32,100
Um, but it really broke my heart
when I was watching that documentary.

1043
00:55:32,100 --> 00:55:36,960
And I saw the reaction of
Morgan's dad who is on camera and.

1044
00:55:37,710 --> 00:55:43,799
You know, this poor guy, tiering, if
he's got schizophrenia himself, I'm sure

1045
00:55:43,799 --> 00:55:49,200
this event in and of itself probably
caused some kind of break for him.

1046
00:55:49,350 --> 00:55:50,730
You know, it was probably hard.

1047
00:55:50,730 --> 00:55:55,799
It was dramatic, dramatic, traumatic,
um, you know, and immediately

1048
00:55:55,799 --> 00:55:58,710
he started blaming himself
when he was talking about this.

1049
00:55:58,980 --> 00:56:00,420
Um, he was crying.

1050
00:56:00,420 --> 00:56:02,009
It was so, so, so sad.

1051
00:56:02,100 --> 00:56:05,549
His heart was broken and this
was a, the broken heart of a man

1052
00:56:05,549 --> 00:56:07,830
who has his own mental issues.

1053
00:56:07,859 --> 00:56:11,160
So that breaking heart is different
than you and I, that understands

1054
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:12,660
how to control this kind of thing.

1055
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:14,580
Um, and it was really, really sad.

1056
00:56:14,580 --> 00:56:20,820
I, I felt for everybody involved, you
know, I also felt for a niece's parents.

1057
00:56:21,060 --> 00:56:23,790
You know, the dad was trying
so hard to keep it together.

1058
00:56:23,790 --> 00:56:24,990
The mom was there.

1059
00:56:25,260 --> 00:56:29,670
Um, you know, they have a son, they
were trying to keep things normal,

1060
00:56:29,850 --> 00:56:35,310
but they've got a 12 year old in
juvenile detention or in juvenile

1061
00:56:35,310 --> 00:56:38,730
jail for year over year, over year.

1062
00:56:38,730 --> 00:56:40,470
And these people have
to just deal with it.

1063
00:56:40,740 --> 00:56:41,970
They have to go see her.

1064
00:56:42,030 --> 00:56:44,850
I talked to her on the phone, they
have to make this somewhat normal.

1065
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:45,900
What do you do?

1066
00:56:46,050 --> 00:56:46,410
You know?

1067
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:49,920
And they can't give up on her,
you know, she's actually, or he's

1068
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:51,900
act they're actually all she has.

1069
00:56:52,230 --> 00:56:58,170
So it was just really heartbreaking,
um, in a lot of ways, I especially,

1070
00:56:58,230 --> 00:57:02,730
again, felt really bad for the dad of
Morgan's dad, because I felt like he

1071
00:57:02,730 --> 00:57:04,620
really took this burden upon himself.

1072
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:08,040
When he communicated about it, he
felt like that it was his fault.

1073
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:10,890
You know, they said that,
oh, it's a possibility.

1074
00:57:10,890 --> 00:57:13,920
I don't know what the percentages that
this kind of thing could be carried

1075
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:16,380
down and, and, you know, in lineage.

1076
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:21,690
Um, but, uh, no matter what the
percentage is, he I'm sure blamed himself.

1077
00:57:21,870 --> 00:57:25,470
And when he talked about him
himself, having schizophrenia and

1078
00:57:25,470 --> 00:57:28,380
his wife even says that he, um,
you know, was high functioning.

1079
00:57:28,590 --> 00:57:31,530
So she didn't think that any, he was.

1080
00:57:32,475 --> 00:57:37,635
Outwardly strange, but he himself
says I was seeing things all the time.

1081
00:57:37,725 --> 00:57:38,985
I just got used to them.

1082
00:57:39,345 --> 00:57:44,595
He was seeing hallucinations, you
know, he imagined walking around

1083
00:57:44,595 --> 00:57:48,345
with all of this disturbance and
distraction and your eyeline.

1084
00:57:48,465 --> 00:57:51,795
Cause you're seeing like your peripheral
point of your peripheral vision.

1085
00:57:51,915 --> 00:57:53,715
You're probably seeing
all kinds of crazy stuff.

1086
00:57:53,775 --> 00:57:54,705
He just got used to it.

1087
00:57:55,185 --> 00:57:58,845
But then that's why I think he felt
the worst about the situation, because

1088
00:57:59,085 --> 00:58:00,555
I think he took it upon himself.

1089
00:58:00,765 --> 00:58:04,455
Um, the responsibility anyway, that
this is something that he could

1090
00:58:04,455 --> 00:58:07,035
have stopped and he could have kept
this from happening to his daughter.

1091
00:58:07,215 --> 00:58:10,635
And that was the biggest heartbreak was
that he couldn't do anything about it.

1092
00:58:10,635 --> 00:58:15,105
And he could have, he somehow participated
in, um, this situation for her.

1093
00:58:15,105 --> 00:58:16,455
It was really, really sad.

1094
00:58:16,485 --> 00:58:17,445
It's a good documentary.

1095
00:58:17,445 --> 00:58:18,615
So I would definitely take a look.

1096
00:58:19,065 --> 00:58:23,625
Brittney Sherman: So Morgan he's
officially diagnosed with schizophrenia,

1097
00:58:23,895 --> 00:58:29,445
but not until she's been in jail or
juvenile detention for almost three

1098
00:58:29,445 --> 00:58:31,005
years, because when she goes to trial.

1099
00:58:31,830 --> 00:58:37,230
She immediately pleads for, uh, not
guilty by meat, by reason of mental

1100
00:58:37,230 --> 00:58:43,589
disease or defect, because she now has
a diagnosed condition of schizophrenia.

1101
00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:48,089
Despite the fact that it doesn't come
on until later in life, obviously it

1102
00:58:48,089 --> 00:58:50,279
affected her tragically very early.

1103
00:58:50,700 --> 00:58:55,319
And I think when you watch the, the
splinter man documentary, or you

1104
00:58:55,319 --> 00:59:00,240
can watch, uh, the 20, 20 special,
or you can look on YouTube, there

1105
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:02,220
are lots of videos of the trial.

1106
00:59:02,939 --> 00:59:10,560
I think it's visibly tragic how you
can view the, the way the toll that

1107
00:59:10,560 --> 00:59:13,890
her disease has taken on her in
the time that she's been in jail.

1108
00:59:14,009 --> 00:59:14,399
Oh yeah.

1109
00:59:14,709 --> 00:59:15,569
She is.

1110
00:59:17,220 --> 00:59:21,180
She, she looks like a completely
different person and she looks completely

1111
00:59:21,180 --> 00:59:22,950
disheveled and all out of sorts.

1112
00:59:23,310 --> 00:59:26,310
And a Nisa is actually quite the opposite.

1113
00:59:26,460 --> 00:59:31,530
She's very well put together
and a very cognizant coherent

1114
00:59:31,620 --> 00:59:34,560
of the, uh, of her surroundings.

1115
00:59:35,250 --> 00:59:41,280
Uh, Morgan was sentenced to 40 years
in a state psychiatric hospital

1116
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:43,530
in both of their sentencings.

1117
00:59:43,830 --> 00:59:48,210
The girls both expressed great
remorse for what they did.

1118
00:59:48,270 --> 00:59:55,350
Morgan's mom still to this day
feels that Morgan is not a threat

1119
00:59:55,380 --> 00:59:58,800
because she is adjusting very well.

1120
00:59:58,860 --> 01:00:01,440
And she's responding
well to the medication.

1121
01:00:01,770 --> 01:00:08,970
And both girls are eligible to
petition for reevaluation in 2020.

1122
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:10,170
Sonia Meza-Leon: Wow.

1123
01:00:11,174 --> 01:00:14,205
If they petition and they pass some
sort of test, because I think the

1124
01:00:14,205 --> 01:00:17,355
criteria is to get out early, all
of their symptoms have to be gone.

1125
01:00:17,685 --> 01:00:22,805
So the way that the, the for Morgan,
the way it works is she sent us to

1126
01:00:22,805 --> 01:00:26,685
a maximum of 40 years to live an
indeterminate sentence involving at

1127
01:00:26,685 --> 01:00:28,484
least three years locked confinement.

1128
01:00:28,545 --> 01:00:33,165
In addition to involuntary treatment in a
state psychiatric Institute until complete

1129
01:00:33,165 --> 01:00:37,065
resolution of symptoms or until age 53.

1130
01:00:37,455 --> 01:00:38,915
So think about this in a couple.

1131
01:00:38,924 --> 01:00:44,924
I mean, she, most of the videos that
I saw where she was a bit older and

1132
01:00:44,924 --> 01:00:48,674
she was going through the trial and
the sentencing, she definitely looked

1133
01:00:48,674 --> 01:00:50,145
like this had taken its toll on her.

1134
01:00:50,145 --> 01:00:50,535
You're right.

1135
01:00:50,805 --> 01:00:51,134
For sure.

1136
01:00:51,134 --> 01:00:56,475
No, not to mention just generally
when you have mental issues and, and,

1137
01:00:56,865 --> 01:01:01,545
and defects, it wears on you, you
know, the struggle of trying to keep.

1138
01:01:02,505 --> 01:01:06,285
Some kind of normal state is
really hard for these folks.

1139
01:01:06,525 --> 01:01:07,995
So it's a lot of work.

1140
01:01:07,995 --> 01:01:10,995
I think that people who don't have
those issues take it for granted.

1141
01:01:11,385 --> 01:01:13,095
Um, and the struggle is real for them.

1142
01:01:13,845 --> 01:01:16,845
I, I don't know.

1143
01:01:16,905 --> 01:01:20,085
I mean, like I said, it would,
time will tell for Morgan.

1144
01:01:20,325 --> 01:01:23,205
I think that medication was
probably really helpful for her.

1145
01:01:23,655 --> 01:01:27,345
Um, and you know, I don't know
what her understanding is of

1146
01:01:27,375 --> 01:01:30,375
her crimes in her sentencing.

1147
01:01:30,375 --> 01:01:35,985
I think she apologized to Peyton and
her family and she was really sad.

1148
01:01:35,985 --> 01:01:39,045
She was crying, you know,
she said, I'm so sorry.

1149
01:01:39,405 --> 01:01:43,365
Um, but a lot of the other videos
I saw with Morgan in the, in the

1150
01:01:43,365 --> 01:01:47,505
trial, and of course this is who
knows what kind of meditation,

1151
01:01:47,505 --> 01:01:49,425
meditation medication she was on.

1152
01:01:49,785 --> 01:01:52,665
Um, but she seemed very out of it.

1153
01:01:52,845 --> 01:01:53,775
She seemed like she was.

1154
01:01:54,779 --> 01:01:58,379
Like she was looking around
the room in the courtroom.

1155
01:01:58,379 --> 01:02:02,400
Like she was seeing things
that the nobody else was.

1156
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:02,730
I,

1157
01:02:02,730 --> 01:02:03,180
Brittney Sherman: yes.

1158
01:02:03,180 --> 01:02:04,500
I totally know exactly

1159
01:02:04,500 --> 01:02:05,310
Sonia Meza-Leon: what
you're talking about.

1160
01:02:05,310 --> 01:02:08,940
Like looking off into space
and kind of like, I don't

1161
01:02:08,940 --> 01:02:10,650
Brittney Sherman: think she
was medicated at that point

1162
01:02:11,339 --> 01:02:12,900
Sonia Meza-Leon: really, because
I wouldn't seem like they would

1163
01:02:12,900 --> 01:02:14,549
have started that immediately, but

1164
01:02:14,549 --> 01:02:18,180
Brittney Sherman: she wasn't diagnosed
until it went to trial almost three

1165
01:02:18,180 --> 01:02:19,920
years after she was originally

1166
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:20,549
Sonia Meza-Leon: arrested.

1167
01:02:20,790 --> 01:02:21,900
She still looks like that.

1168
01:02:21,990 --> 01:02:23,160
She still looked like that when she's

1169
01:02:23,670 --> 01:02:26,850
Brittney Sherman: older, but at
15, she looks at like that three

1170
01:02:26,850 --> 01:02:33,240
years after she's essentially been
in jail before she was diagnosed.

1171
01:02:33,990 --> 01:02:35,640
Sonia Meza-Leon: So it took
him three years when she

1172
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:37,049
was in jail to diagnose her.

1173
01:02:37,379 --> 01:02:38,549
Brittney Sherman: I think so.

1174
01:02:38,640 --> 01:02:43,200
I don't think that she was diagnosed
until really the trial phase.

1175
01:02:43,500 --> 01:02:44,279
Sonia Meza-Leon: That's crazy.

1176
01:02:44,279 --> 01:02:45,750
What were they doing with her in there?

1177
01:02:45,810 --> 01:02:46,290
Well, I

1178
01:02:46,290 --> 01:02:47,790
Brittney Sherman: think the
belief was that she was just a

1179
01:02:47,790 --> 01:02:49,859
Sonia Meza-Leon: criminal
think, look at the videos where.

1180
01:02:50,850 --> 01:02:56,460
Young, she's 12 to whatever, 14
walking around in the courtroom.

1181
01:02:56,820 --> 01:03:01,050
And, um, I think it's apparent
that she's got some problems she's,

1182
01:03:01,050 --> 01:03:04,260
you know, definitely she's looking
off again, you know, I mean, it's,

1183
01:03:04,290 --> 01:03:05,970
she's like, doesn't end this haze.

1184
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:07,140
She's not lucid.

1185
01:03:07,230 --> 01:03:11,355
Brittney Sherman: And it's also, if
she was diagnosed earlier, She wasn't

1186
01:03:11,355 --> 01:03:13,365
understood was not under the proper care.

1187
01:03:13,425 --> 01:03:17,625
So whatever her, the water treatment
was would have been the treatment based

1188
01:03:17,625 --> 01:03:25,125
on the prison, not under the direct
care of a doctor who treats this all.

1189
01:03:25,875 --> 01:03:26,025
Oh,

1190
01:03:26,025 --> 01:03:28,455
Sonia Meza-Leon: I thought that she went
into a mental institution immediately

1191
01:03:28,455 --> 01:03:30,015
in a new state in juvenile jail.

1192
01:03:30,075 --> 01:03:32,685
Brittney Sherman: No, both
girls stayed in juvenile jail.

1193
01:03:33,015 --> 01:03:33,795
She's yeah.

1194
01:03:33,795 --> 01:03:38,745
They were not, they were not moved
to the state facility, the hospital

1195
01:03:38,895 --> 01:03:40,155
until after they were Sutton.

1196
01:03:40,215 --> 01:03:40,335
Oh,

1197
01:03:40,635 --> 01:03:41,055
Sonia Meza-Leon: right.

1198
01:03:41,085 --> 01:03:44,655
Yeah, because Morgan's mom
says that she goes in there.

1199
01:03:44,655 --> 01:03:46,605
There's no, there's no window.

1200
01:03:46,605 --> 01:03:47,865
She's in there by herself.

1201
01:03:48,075 --> 01:03:51,225
And so her, the mom says,
well, thank goodness.

1202
01:03:51,225 --> 01:03:54,525
She doesn't actually mind because
she's got friends in there.

1203
01:03:54,705 --> 01:03:55,095
She.

1204
01:03:56,085 --> 01:03:58,695
I don't know if we talked about
this, but Morgan had a lot of sort

1205
01:03:58,695 --> 01:04:03,615
of fantasy friends that she talked
about and that she said were with her.

1206
01:04:03,885 --> 01:04:08,235
And so I think a lot of the time she spent
in solitary confinement, she actually

1207
01:04:08,235 --> 01:04:10,185
thought she had people in there with her.

1208
01:04:10,245 --> 01:04:10,815
She probably,

1209
01:04:10,875 --> 01:04:11,595
Brittney Sherman: we did.

1210
01:04:12,195 --> 01:04:18,255
And Morgan, I think displayed that she
was highly suggestible or early on in

1211
01:04:18,255 --> 01:04:18,705
Sonia Meza-Leon: life.

1212
01:04:19,215 --> 01:04:21,795
Well, if you fit, I mean,
I, and I agree with you.

1213
01:04:22,435 --> 01:04:28,305
The thing is that that in and of itself
is a great, makes a great case for

1214
01:04:28,305 --> 01:04:30,525
how a Nisa contributed to her problem.

1215
01:04:30,855 --> 01:04:34,695
Because a Nissa, if a Nissa
hadn't introduced her, this

1216
01:04:34,695 --> 01:04:35,445
wouldn't have happened.

1217
01:04:35,655 --> 01:04:38,445
It may have happened later, but
it probably wouldn't have happened

1218
01:04:38,445 --> 01:04:40,575
in this way, but it probably
would have been something else.

1219
01:04:40,695 --> 01:04:40,875
And

1220
01:04:40,875 --> 01:04:45,165
Brittney Sherman: Annisa even
admits that if she never told Morgan

1221
01:04:45,165 --> 01:04:48,735
about slender, man, chances are,
this never would have happened.

1222
01:04:48,885 --> 01:04:49,275
Yeah.

1223
01:04:50,085 --> 01:04:53,225
And I think a Nissa accepts
that responsibility.

1224
01:04:54,285 --> 01:04:57,705
Sonia Meza-Leon: This is me and my movie
had going, Ooh, this is like a really

1225
01:04:57,705 --> 01:05:01,875
interesting story because I could, if I
was, if I was writing a screenplay about

1226
01:05:01,875 --> 01:05:08,025
this, I would continue this as one, the
Nissa gets out when she's 35, she starts

1227
01:05:08,045 --> 01:05:14,145
writing to Morgan in, you know, her,
her rehabilitative state Morgan gets

1228
01:05:14,145 --> 01:05:16,695
out at 53 and Nissa has waited for her.

1229
01:05:16,755 --> 01:05:21,195
They have been fighting all along to
go and continue this, you know, try

1230
01:05:21,205 --> 01:05:25,035
to try to kill Taylor, try to kill
Payton, but I could see them play.

1231
01:05:25,335 --> 01:05:29,955
And so if I was, you know, S you know,
screenwriter, I'm writing now a script

1232
01:05:29,955 --> 01:05:35,415
about how Annisa has gotten now, when
she's 35, she started writing to Morgan.

1233
01:05:35,505 --> 01:05:41,055
They've been plotting all of these years
until Morgan gets out when she's 53 and

1234
01:05:41,055 --> 01:05:43,695
then together, they go track down Payton.

1235
01:05:43,905 --> 01:05:48,255
And it's like this Bridget Fonda,
fricking Jennifer, Jason Leigh, like,

1236
01:05:48,255 --> 01:05:52,455
you know, crazy horror movie where
they go and they find her at her house.

1237
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:55,710
You know when she's, she's gotta be 53

1238
01:05:55,710 --> 01:05:56,310
Brittney Sherman: too, right?

1239
01:05:56,460 --> 01:05:56,710
Yeah.

1240
01:05:56,850 --> 01:05:57,660
They're all the same age.

1241
01:05:57,660 --> 01:05:57,990
They're all the

1242
01:05:57,990 --> 01:05:58,470
Sonia Meza-Leon: same age.

1243
01:05:58,470 --> 01:05:58,740
Right.

1244
01:05:58,980 --> 01:06:02,220
So they go track her down and you know,
and they're like, oh, we're going to

1245
01:06:02,220 --> 01:06:03,870
finally get you paid and opinions.

1246
01:06:03,870 --> 01:06:04,830
Like, God, dang it.

1247
01:06:04,860 --> 01:06:07,770
Why didn't anybody listen to me
and put you guys away for life.

1248
01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:11,580
You know, that's the kind of screen on
my end that I think is entertaining.

1249
01:06:11,820 --> 01:06:16,050
And of course, you know, it's so
far fetched, but at the same time,

1250
01:06:16,050 --> 01:06:19,260
if I was painting and I had gone
through all this trauma and this

1251
01:06:19,260 --> 01:06:22,380
had happened to me and I w you know,
there was a little teeny piece of me.

1252
01:06:22,380 --> 01:06:23,640
That's like, good Lord.

1253
01:06:23,640 --> 01:06:24,630
When these people get out.

1254
01:06:24,660 --> 01:06:24,960
Oh yeah.

1255
01:06:25,110 --> 01:06:26,490
35 and 53.

1256
01:06:26,550 --> 01:06:27,390
Where are they?

1257
01:06:27,600 --> 01:06:28,620
Can they find me?

1258
01:06:28,710 --> 01:06:29,760
I'm still scared.

1259
01:06:29,970 --> 01:06:30,810
What the heck?

1260
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:31,110
Where

1261
01:06:31,110 --> 01:06:31,920
Brittney Sherman: am I going to be?

1262
01:06:32,130 --> 01:06:35,660
So I'm gonna, I'm gonna raise
your story a little bit.

1263
01:06:35,670 --> 01:06:36,990
Cause I didn't really
even think about that.

1264
01:06:37,815 --> 01:06:41,355
I mean in order to tie it
in back to slender, man.

1265
01:06:41,835 --> 01:06:44,895
And if we're going to take these
girls at their words, in their

1266
01:06:44,895 --> 01:06:48,075
true belief of slender, man, I

1267
01:06:48,075 --> 01:06:49,875
Sonia Meza-Leon: think
technically it never stops.

1268
01:06:49,875 --> 01:06:52,965
They keep believing, even though they
pretend like they don't the point.

1269
01:06:52,995 --> 01:06:54,105
Brittney Sherman: That's
exactly where I'm going.

1270
01:06:54,225 --> 01:06:58,395
They're still consumed
by the idea of slender.

1271
01:06:58,635 --> 01:06:58,845
Yeah.

1272
01:06:58,845 --> 01:06:59,415
So,

1273
01:06:59,625 --> 01:07:01,545
Sonia Meza-Leon: well, he's got a
captive audience, literally because

1274
01:07:01,545 --> 01:07:06,255
they are in freaking jail detention and
you know, it's like people are still

1275
01:07:06,255 --> 01:07:07,905
writing stories and articles about it.

1276
01:07:08,025 --> 01:07:11,355
Well, these are the people like, I mean,
I could see Morgan in her head, like a

1277
01:07:11,355 --> 01:07:17,625
slender man's next to me, you know, myself
for like 40 years, you know, calculating

1278
01:07:17,625 --> 01:07:21,945
and figuring this out with me, uh, Nisa,
you know, I'm in jail slender, man,

1279
01:07:21,945 --> 01:07:23,535
slender, man, Slenderman, Slenderman.

1280
01:07:23,685 --> 01:07:25,455
I mean, what are these
girls thinking about?

1281
01:07:25,605 --> 01:07:25,875
Okay.

1282
01:07:25,875 --> 01:07:28,515
Brittney Sherman: So of
course all hypothetical.

1283
01:07:28,515 --> 01:07:31,005
We hope none of this happened,
but we're writing a movie

1284
01:07:31,275 --> 01:07:31,965
Sonia Meza-Leon: filmmaker's point of

1285
01:07:31,965 --> 01:07:32,175
Brittney Sherman: view.

1286
01:07:32,175 --> 01:07:33,435
So we're talking about a screenplay.

1287
01:07:33,465 --> 01:07:33,645
Yeah.

1288
01:07:33,645 --> 01:07:36,135
We're talking we're actively live.

1289
01:07:36,850 --> 01:07:37,750
In the moment running are

1290
01:07:40,060 --> 01:07:43,330
Sonia Meza-Leon: going to be huge,
by the way folks, the girls get

1291
01:07:43,330 --> 01:07:43,750
Brittney Sherman: out.

1292
01:07:44,290 --> 01:07:49,540
Uh, they track down Peyton,
they succeed, they go through

1293
01:07:49,540 --> 01:07:52,870
with it and the murder Peyton.

1294
01:07:54,339 --> 01:08:05,080
And now in my mind, the go into a forest,
like situation thick Pan's labyrinth.

1295
01:08:06,580 --> 01:08:07,480
I know it's so good.

1296
01:08:07,779 --> 01:08:16,120
And so God, they ultimately go into
like, they go down into the forest.

1297
01:08:16,149 --> 01:08:16,359
I don't know.

1298
01:08:16,359 --> 01:08:19,930
They go downstairs or maybe they just
go through the forest and they find

1299
01:08:19,930 --> 01:08:26,710
slender man's castle and he is seated
and he is seated there on a throne and

1300
01:08:26,710 --> 01:08:31,510
he dubs them or Knights them official
proxies what they've always wanted.

1301
01:08:31,510 --> 01:08:31,899
They're entirely.

1302
01:08:33,450 --> 01:08:36,630
Sonia Meza-Leon: So are you
saying that their fantasy for them

1303
01:08:37,920 --> 01:08:40,050
becomes real and then they go off?

1304
01:08:40,080 --> 01:08:43,380
Is this an alternate alternative
universe or alternate universe?

1305
01:08:43,830 --> 01:08:45,180
Brittney Sherman: So I think
you can go one way or another.

1306
01:08:45,180 --> 01:08:47,670
It could be an alternate universe or could

1307
01:08:47,670 --> 01:08:50,850
Sonia Meza-Leon: be, I mean, if
you want the biggest bang for

1308
01:08:50,850 --> 01:08:54,960
your buck, the point of it is that
you prove this Letterman's real.

1309
01:08:56,730 --> 01:08:58,440
Brittney Sherman: That's where
I originally was no scares.

1310
01:08:58,440 --> 01:09:01,980
The bejesus out of people
is to prove that he's real.

1311
01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:08,279
The alternate is that this is
all happening in their heads.

1312
01:09:09,210 --> 01:09:09,600
Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah.

1313
01:09:10,200 --> 01:09:14,819
Well, I think it could be both
because I think that's the same

1314
01:09:14,819 --> 01:09:18,120
with Pan's labyrinth, which
is a fantastic million people.

1315
01:09:18,120 --> 01:09:22,729
If you haven't seen a lot of
beautiful, but, um, that it's,

1316
01:09:22,889 --> 01:09:24,120
it's all about perception.

1317
01:09:24,450 --> 01:09:29,009
Like for the girls, they could
go off into their mansion and

1318
01:09:29,009 --> 01:09:30,599
wouldn't, you know, funder men.

1319
01:09:30,899 --> 01:09:33,809
But the reality of it is is
they just go off and just sit

1320
01:09:33,809 --> 01:09:34,830
down in the weather and die.

1321
01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:39,389
I mean, there's not much
differentiation between those two

1322
01:09:39,389 --> 01:09:42,750
when you're talking about like
this, this lapse of reality, right.

1323
01:09:43,349 --> 01:09:48,660
The contact, you know, it's just, um,
I mean, and we're not saying that this

1324
01:09:48,660 --> 01:09:52,019
is a great story, but we're saying
this is a great, it's a great story.

1325
01:09:52,019 --> 01:09:55,290
It's not a great situation because
there's an actual events and

1326
01:09:55,290 --> 01:09:56,700
they're actual people tied to it.

1327
01:09:56,700 --> 01:09:58,769
But if you were going to write
a screenplay about something,

1328
01:09:58,769 --> 01:09:59,730
this will be really interesting.

1329
01:09:59,730 --> 01:10:01,110
There's a lot of avenues to cover.

1330
01:10:01,230 --> 01:10:01,559
No one wants

1331
01:10:01,570 --> 01:10:02,370
Brittney Sherman: this as public.

1332
01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:03,929
This is officially copyrighted by us.

1333
01:10:03,990 --> 01:10:05,250
So if anyone else tries to make this.

1334
01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:06,990
We get the royalties.

1335
01:10:08,910 --> 01:10:12,360
Sonia Meza-Leon: I think
there's a fan Eli rock.

1336
01:10:12,400 --> 01:10:13,169
Where are you, buddy?

1337
01:10:13,169 --> 01:10:14,309
You need to make this movie.

1338
01:10:14,519 --> 01:10:14,759
Oh,

1339
01:10:14,799 --> 01:10:18,660
Brittney Sherman: I would like to see
it go to, uh, uh, what's the name?

1340
01:10:18,839 --> 01:10:20,459
What's the name of the
company they're doing?

1341
01:10:21,599 --> 01:10:21,959
Yes.

1342
01:10:22,019 --> 01:10:23,730
I would love to see this house.

1343
01:10:24,570 --> 01:10:29,519
I would love that because they take more
of a psychological, uh, take on things

1344
01:10:29,549 --> 01:10:32,339
and Eli Roth is more just the violence.

1345
01:10:33,360 --> 01:10:33,839
Sonia Meza-Leon: All right.

1346
01:10:33,870 --> 01:10:36,209
Well, that's all I have for this case.

1347
01:10:36,269 --> 01:10:41,820
Um, you know, again, all due respect
to the fam all of the families,

1348
01:10:41,820 --> 01:10:43,620
and I hope they can heal from this.

1349
01:10:43,980 --> 01:10:49,500
You know, my take my final take on
this is again, I, um, I appreciate

1350
01:10:49,500 --> 01:10:54,000
the mental issues and trying to get
folks help and rehabilitation, and

1351
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:58,920
I'm glad that, um, At least Morgan
is in a place that can help her.

1352
01:10:58,950 --> 01:11:02,070
It sounds to me like a niece is
still in jail, juvenile jail.

1353
01:11:02,070 --> 01:11:02,640
Is that correct?

1354
01:11:02,670 --> 01:11:02,970
I don't know.

1355
01:11:02,970 --> 01:11:04,260
A niece is in the hospital with her.

1356
01:11:04,290 --> 01:11:05,700
Great it with her, no

1357
01:11:05,700 --> 01:11:06,240
Brittney Sherman: contact.

1358
01:11:06,240 --> 01:11:06,810
They're both in,

1359
01:11:07,110 --> 01:11:10,200
Sonia Meza-Leon: they're both in
the hospital because I I've always

1360
01:11:10,230 --> 01:11:14,280
found that really strange that people
seem to think that folks who have

1361
01:11:14,280 --> 01:11:16,200
mental problems should be in jail.

1362
01:11:16,350 --> 01:11:17,460
It doesn't make any sense.

1363
01:11:17,730 --> 01:11:19,290
That's not the place where they get help.

1364
01:11:19,530 --> 01:11:22,710
I mean, a great case
for that Charles Manson.

1365
01:11:22,770 --> 01:11:26,190
And I know everybody hates Charles Manson,
but if you think about Charles Manson

1366
01:11:26,190 --> 01:11:30,060
and the way that he conveyed his message
while he was a lot more aggressive, he was

1367
01:11:30,060 --> 01:11:32,880
still very confident in his communication.

1368
01:11:33,270 --> 01:11:37,680
And he believed when he believes so
strongly that nothing else mattered.

1369
01:11:37,740 --> 01:11:41,880
And that's honestly the way
Morgan kind of reacted to this.

1370
01:11:42,270 --> 01:11:43,650
She's a 12 year old grille.

1371
01:11:43,680 --> 01:11:44,730
Sweet, nice.

1372
01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:48,810
Then you got crazy Charlie Manson over
here, but at the end of the day, both had

1373
01:11:48,810 --> 01:11:52,740
mental issues, both needed help, you know,
and Charlie went to jail and never got.

1374
01:11:53,625 --> 01:11:56,145
And I think that's probably one of the
biggest problems we have in this country

1375
01:11:56,265 --> 01:12:01,155
is the way that we approach, you know,
rehabilitation in jail in general, you

1376
01:12:01,155 --> 01:12:03,105
know, the con always the conversation.

1377
01:12:03,105 --> 01:12:05,055
Is it punishment or is it rehabilitation?

1378
01:12:05,325 --> 01:12:08,745
Are you really just sticking someone
in a hole and just saying, bye,

1379
01:12:08,775 --> 01:12:09,875
you're never coming out again.

1380
01:12:09,915 --> 01:12:13,275
We don't want to hear from you, but if
we're really talking about taking people

1381
01:12:13,455 --> 01:12:16,245
and putting them in a situation where
they can improve their lives and come

1382
01:12:16,245 --> 01:12:20,415
out as, you know, productive citizens,
that's a different approach altogether,

1383
01:12:20,775 --> 01:12:25,935
you know, mental, mental illnesses,
illnesses come in a variety of shades and

1384
01:12:25,935 --> 01:12:29,715
colors and, um, and extremities, honestly.

1385
01:12:29,715 --> 01:12:31,845
I mean, you know, like
you said, it's a spectrum.

1386
01:12:32,055 --> 01:12:36,555
Some people can have no issues, um, but
it doesn't take much, or a traumatic

1387
01:12:36,555 --> 01:12:37,725
event could really push them over the.

1388
01:12:39,180 --> 01:12:39,990
So to

1389
01:12:39,990 --> 01:12:43,530
Brittney Sherman: finish this, I'm going
to go a little afterschool special,

1390
01:12:43,530 --> 01:12:45,240
but I think it is still very important.

1391
01:12:45,660 --> 01:12:50,760
If anyone is out there listening
and having issues, whether it's,

1392
01:12:50,790 --> 01:12:54,720
uh, schizophrenia like issues,
whether you're dealing with anxiety

1393
01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:57,630
or depression, please get help.

1394
01:12:58,290 --> 01:12:59,550
It makes a difference.

1395
01:12:59,940 --> 01:13:01,620
Medication is okay.

1396
01:13:01,920 --> 01:13:08,400
And, uh, it's, it's a problem and a
stigma that we have in this country,

1397
01:13:08,400 --> 01:13:10,620
but I don't think it's one that we
should, because I think it affects

1398
01:13:10,620 --> 01:13:12,570
more people than people realize.

1399
01:13:12,990 --> 01:13:18,180
And it's important that it's treated
properly and that stigma is broken down.

1400
01:13:18,599 --> 01:13:21,690
Sonia Meza-Leon: Absolutely I a
hundred percent agree with Brittany.

1401
01:13:21,809 --> 01:13:23,970
There's nothing wrong with
reaching out and getting help.

1402
01:13:24,150 --> 01:13:25,680
There's nothing wrong
with talking to people.

1403
01:13:25,680 --> 01:13:28,620
If you think that they need
help, there are ways to do it.

1404
01:13:28,620 --> 01:13:29,700
That's not intrusive.

1405
01:13:29,730 --> 01:13:32,670
Be a human, be nice to your
people and ask them how they are.

1406
01:13:32,670 --> 01:13:35,790
And maybe they'll tell you the truth
and tell you that they need some help.

1407
01:13:35,880 --> 01:13:36,900
And please help.

1408
01:13:38,475 --> 01:13:38,805
Brittney Sherman: All right.

1409
01:13:38,805 --> 01:13:42,405
I think that's, we're going to where
we are going to wrap it up for this

1410
01:13:42,405 --> 01:13:45,435
episode of the slender man stabbings.

1411
01:13:46,005 --> 01:13:48,045
Thank you everybody for listening.

1412
01:13:48,135 --> 01:13:52,905
Uh, I got a little surprise at Sony
doesn't even know about, but I, uh, am

1413
01:13:52,905 --> 01:13:59,325
going to say that for the first person
that tweets us at Scarlet podcast and

1414
01:13:59,325 --> 01:14:07,995
uses the hashtag slender, you are going
to get a brand new Scarlet t-shirt I'm

1415
01:14:07,995 --> 01:14:08,705
Sonia Meza-Leon: excited.

1416
01:14:09,315 --> 01:14:09,975
Awesome.

1417
01:14:10,005 --> 01:14:14,135
Yes, we, again, you know, thanks to
all of our folks out there, who've

1418
01:14:14,135 --> 01:14:18,885
really helped us, you know, build
our brand, you know, logos music,

1419
01:14:18,945 --> 01:14:20,505
thanks to all of you guys out there.

1420
01:14:20,505 --> 01:14:23,505
And, you know, we're hoping that
you're going to like our, uh, our

1421
01:14:23,505 --> 01:14:25,245
promotional material as much as we do.

1422
01:14:26,145 --> 01:14:26,655
All right.

1423
01:14:26,805 --> 01:14:27,525
Have a good one.

1424
01:14:28,305 --> 01:14:29,055
Thanks guys.

1425
01:14:29,145 --> 01:14:29,775
Have a great one.