00:00:08 Sayan: Most of us don't struggle with knowing what to say. We struggle with the tiny moment right before we say it, when we wonder how will this land. And in that moment, a lot of us choose performance over sincerity. Even with people we genuinely care about. So tonight we will be talking about the S word sincerity. Not as a personal personality trait, but as a leadership practice. Welcome back to another episode of sacred Harmony, the space where leadership, healing, and human connection meet without the mask. I'm Sayan, as some of you would know. And today I'm joined by Joshua Routh Route and the author of the Sword Wielding Sincerity in a World of Performance. So I invite you to join me in this conversation where we would be exploring really what sincerity really looks like in real workplaces. When the pressure is high, egos are involved and everyone's trying to seem fine on the outside. So if you've ever had a team up or I would say led a team or held back a hard conversation, I believe this one's for you. So, uh, Joshua, welcome. Welcome to the, uh, podcast. Uh, and it's a pleasure to have you here with me today. And I'm excited to see actually where this conversation really flows to.

00:01:29 Joshua Routh: Sure. Me as well. I'm really glad to be here with you today.

00:01:32 Sayan: Thank you. Joshua. That really means a lot. And, you know, before we kind of get into that leadership language, uh, you know, uh, I want to get a bit, uh, personal maybe in the sense what was the first moment in your life where you realized, uh, okay, I'm performing right now and not actually connecting with with people around me.

00:01:56 Joshua Routh: I would say the first time I realized it, I had. Job as a magician and I was performing in a barn. Uh, I was performing in a barn for three hundred kids in the middle of July, and it was hot. Uh, it was so hot. And it was just me and three hundred kids, and I had never done a magic show before. I was, I just bought a tuxedo and bought some props and thought, how hard can it be to do a magic show for three hundred kids? And within about fifteen minutes, the kids started chanting, You suck, you suck, you suck. And, uh, I, I had brought some candy to throw to the to, like, make a pier, and I ended up just throwing it to the children, just trying to get them out. And they were looking at me like I was crazy. And so I just grabbed, I was supposed to perform for ninety minutes and I grabbed all of my stuff and I ran for the door. And I realized that putting on the costume of a magician or saying, you're this thing doesn't necessarily make you that thing. And when we tell people that we're going. As that person so that they can count on us to be. That sincerity is is so much different than authenticity. Authenticity is saying, this is who I am, take me or leave me. And a lot of people don't even know who they are. So that's kind of a strange thing. Especially when sincerity is more about how do I show up for you? How can I be there for you? What do you need me to be so that I can be that part? And knowing I may not even be able to do that and then being honest about that. If you need me to be your therapist yet. I don't know anything about therapy I can offer you. Here's find a, here's a therapist over here. Here's a therapist over there, but I'm not going to show up and try to be your therapist because sincerely, I am not a therapist. I can't show up and I can't be that for you. And so sincerity is about a bridge as opposed to a mirror where I'm looking at myself.

00:04:28 Sayan: Yeah, that's that's an interesting story. Uh, and what, what so more, uh, interesting that I found was so how do you, uh, you know, what's the blurry line really between Authenticity and sincerity.

00:04:42 Joshua Routh: Authenticity is like holding up a mirror and looking at yourself and saying, this is who I am. And sincerity is like a window that we look through and we see other people and we see what they need and we show up for them. There's an old story that talks about in the old marketplaces of of Rome, people would buy a pot and this pot would have wax that would cover all the dents and the holes and all the problems. And then people would take that pot, they would bring that home and they would pour hot water in it, and then the water would flow out authentically. It's a pot. Yeah, authentically. That is a pot. But that pot doesn't hold water. It doesn't do what it says it's going to do. And I think that's where sincerity comes in. Sincerity says, I'm a pot. I'm going to hold water.

00:05:37 Sayan: Wow, I. That's a beautiful analogy just to start with. Uh, I'm really. Uh, I mean, excited and, you know, uh, the way especially the conversation has opened up. Joshua. If I'm honest. So, you know, uh, I think a lot of us hear sincerity and think it, it really means becoming, uh, emotionally expressive or turning, you know, meetings into confessionals. Right. So I'm curious as to what do you think people misunderstand the most about sincerity at work?

00:06:12 Joshua Routh: I think people think that sincerity is a soft skill that it, like you said, it's like it's about being vulnerable and and that sort of thing. But I think it's more about being honest and being trustworthy. And I think showing up at work where people need you to be honest and they need you to be trustworthy, your coworkers need to trust that you're going to do what you say you're going to do. Your boss needs to know that you're going to do what you say you're going to do, and your customers need to know that you're going to do what you say you're going to do. So sincerity is less about me sharing all of my problems and my vulnerabilities with you so that you feel sorry for me or give me a pass or anything like that. It's more about saying, this is what I do, this is the truth of what I do, and then you do it. And if you don't do it, that's insincerity. And if you do it, that is sincerity. I will sincerely be there. When we talk about a sincere apology, that's all about change, that's taking the action of really changing. So it's more about living a life of truth than anything.

00:07:25 Sayan: Yeah, that's that's important, right? Because I think sincerity is really, um, bringing honesty like you said, uh, in in whatever. So you do, right? Uh, it's less about making it about you and more about, you know, bringing that kind of honesty with you. So, uh, if we stay that with, uh, a moment, uh. Joshua. Right. Uh, when and I'm going to take this perspective that, uh, you know, when things get tense at work, uh, I think performance somehow becomes a default mindset, right? The moment something gets, uh, I mean, the work gets tense or, you know, there's, there's deadlines piling up. Like what's, what's that fear underneath that mask? Why do people correlate sincerity to performance?

00:08:16 Joshua Routh: Because people don't want to let other people down, and they don't want to be seen as flawed. And people are competitive at work and people often overstretch themselves. There's an idea that you will get a raise, or you'll move up in position to a level of your own incompetence. So let's say I'm really good at this job and they say, oh, you're really good at that job. Well, let's make you a manager. And then you manage the people who do that job because you're really good at that job. You should be able to manage those people. But then you become a manager and you look around and you go, I was good at that job, but I'm not good at managing people. I don't know anything about managing people, but I'll do it and I'll perform it, and maybe I'll learn it along the way, and maybe I'll get good at it, and maybe that time will happen, that I'll become great at it. But sincerity says, okay, I'll rise to that position, but I'm going to need some tools. I'm going to need to learn. So I have to do some self-awareness. I have to say, okay, where are my vulnerabilities? Where are my weaknesses? Where am I not strong enough? And then I have to do the work to rise to the occasion, not just jump into the occasion and say, I can do this now. First and foremost, I have to learn what my vulnerabilities are and then repair those. I need to make it better, not just putting wax. I have to fix the pot. The pot must be repaired. Going back to the pot analogy, so once I, once I repair that, once I learn those skills, then I can be an effective leader. Otherwise, I'm just going to be some guy who doesn't know how to manage people, trying to get them to do what I know how to do. And you keep rising in the ranks of your own incompetence, and people just have a natural fear of being wrong. We don't want to be wrong. We don't want to be seen as imperfect. And dude, I don't want to tell you that I'm perfect at doing this myself. I am still very much flawed in these areas, and that's okay. That's the other thing is that we give ourselves grace with the fact that we're learning. We have to understand that we're going to make mistakes, we're going to do things wrong. And that's where that repair, that sincere apology comes in. Because you and I both know I don't even have to tell you this, but you know, when somebody does something wrong, when somebody does something bad, if they're willing to repair it and willing to learn and willing to grow, we will give them grace. We'll give them a pass. We will let that go when they make a mistake, because we understand what it's like to be in process, to be learning. And even if they do it again, we understand that they're trying not to and we'll keep supporting them. We'll keep trying to give them tools. We'll keep trying to get them there until we're all ready to give up and go. Maybe this isn't right. Maybe this isn't going to work out. You know, relationships, marriages, jobs, you know all those things. At a certain point you have to go, maybe, maybe we're not going to get there right now. Maybe we need a couple of years to get there, and we're not willing to put in the effort, but we can assess along the way.

00:11:28 Sayan: Yeah. And, and that's a profound realization, Joshua. You know that. Um, and I think that's also where your, uh, the sort framework really comes in, which is the self awareness, witness, openness, repair debrief. Right. And, uh, I think, I think self-awareness is indeed that thing, that funnel, uh, you know, that starting of that funnel that leads to, you know, deeper, uh, realizations within yourself. It's like that, you know, it's, it's like the what aspect, uh, of any question, right? So first it's what, and then it's why, then it's how, right? So self-awareness is always that missing piece of any puzzle. But what I'm really curious about is the repair part of it. So, uh, if we talk about the repair in the framework, Joshua, I think a lot of leaders either avoid repair completely or they try to fix things with a big speech. Okay. And you, I mean, we have all had those moments in our workplaces as well. But I think what what do you think does repair look like when it's in, say, a simple and, uh, honest?

00:12:37 Joshua Routh: Yeah. I think knowing that we make mistakes, knowing that we're going to have failures is freeing. I think there's freedom in knowing that you're not going to do everything perfect all of the time. And when you accept that we are flawed and that we are imperfect, but we are willing to change and willing to get better and willing to do the work to change. I think that's where the real acceptance comes in for those around us. Repair is, I'm sorry I did that. I see how that made you feel. This is what I'm going to do to make it better next time. And we focus on next time because we can't really change what happened. We can clean it up as best we can, but we have to focus on what am I going to do different next time?

00:13:36 Sayan: Yeah, I think that's, uh, that's an important, uh, I would say reframe, right. And, uh, those who get that, I mean, mentality, they, they, I think I've seen that they move way forward in life as a leader because again, I think leader being a leader is not for everyone. Joshua. If I'm being honest, right? And you know, those who are great at leadership, they understand this skill, uh, that, you know, that not everything could be perfect at D one and that you have, you have got to let that room for mistakes, uh, you know, within within the team. And that's how you, you grow and, you know, move forward as a team itself. So I think that, uh, really does come to an interesting point, in the conversation. So, uh, if you talk about, uh, being real, uh, I think it, it becomes an excuse for being reckless. You know, people say that, you know, I'm just being honest while they're actually being harsh or unregulated. So how do you distinguish sincerity from, you know, emotional bluntness?

00:14:47 Joshua Routh: I think because sincerity is so much about your relationship with the other person. Yes. And seeing the other person. So the W in the sword framework is witness. If I really see you, if I really know you, I really take time to listen to you. I'm not going to do something that's going to harm you. My goal is not to harm you. And I think that, um, Um, you can be authentic and be a jerk. You can be mean and be authentic. You can, you can. Absolutely. But being sincere, because so much of it comes in on the other side of, of our duty of care for the other. You can't be. Our job is to show up for other people, to be there for other people. That does not involve harming other people. If we're being there for supporting other people, if we're being there to make other people feel uplifted, to provide the opportunity to uplift others, we can't harm them. And so that's why we have to witness them and see what they're really going through and really connect with them, not just what we think their existence is like, not just what we think their life is. We have to really observe and really know what their life is. And actually, I have a question for you. Can I ask you a question?

00:16:12 Sayan: Yeah. For sure.

00:16:14 Joshua Routh: Okay. I'm curious. In the United States. We have. And I'm sure you have these donuts. Do you have donuts there?

00:16:21 Sayan: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm a big fan of I'm a big fan of, uh, hard rock chocolate donut.

00:16:27 Joshua Routh: Okay, okay, cool. I didn't want to assume I love gulab jamun. Uh, that's like one of my favorites. I know you have that, right. Yeah, yeah, but you you have donuts. Okay. That's cool. I love that. I love because I love donuts.

00:16:43 Sayan: I love donuts as well.

00:16:45 Joshua Routh: Yeah. Right. Yeah. In America, when you make a mistake at work, you might come in the next day and bring everybody a box of donuts, right? You know, give everyone a donut, go to each person's desk and give them a donut. And that's how you're trying to make up for it. Do you understand this? Yeah. But what people people don't want the donut. Nobody cares. They'll take the donut. Don't get me wrong. Because people like donuts, they will take the donut. Yeah, but what they really want is you to change. They want you to be different. They want you to do things differently. That's what they really want. Because if you give everybody a donut and then you do that again and you do it again.

00:17:30 Sayan: Yeah.

00:17:30 Joshua Routh: Nobody cares. And you keep bringing in donuts. People like, stop bringing in donuts. Just change.

00:17:36 Sayan: That's, uh, that's, that's a, I mean, that's a beautiful way to frame it. Joshua. And, uh, you know, indeed, when you talk about sincerity, it's, it's, it's a pattern, right? And I think trust doesn't respond to speeches, right? It, it responds to repetition, right? Something that you see every day, like you say, right. And not in a negative way like the example you shared, but, uh, something in a positive way, you know, small truth or, you know, clean repair, steady presence, that, that, that guy being present in that moment during hard times, right? Emotionally as well. I think that that goes a long way. So ultimately, I think, yeah, when you talk about sincerity, it's it's a pattern. It starts with the small steps when you talk about corporate or workplace, for instance. Right? So, uh, Joshua, since we are nearing the minute mark, I would quickly love to ask for the listeners who, who feels like they're always performing at work. Uh, maybe let's make it a bit more generic, right? Maybe at work, maybe at relationship, even in their own head. So what's one gentle starting point? Uh, you know, just the first honest step that would keep them towards themselves.

00:18:47 Joshua Routh: I think taking some time to write down what your values are, know what your values are. Um, it's a very simple thing to be honest about your values. My cousin always says that celebrating birthday parties and birthdays is a value for her that birthdays are important. That's her value. And she when her birth birthday month comes up. And I do mean month because it's every February. She wants to celebrate her birthday the whole month long because birthdays are important. But when my birthday comes around, I maybe get a text on my birthday from her. So what her value is, is my birthday is important, meaning her her birthday is important. That's the value. That's the truth of the value, not birthdays are important. What is the truth of the value? If you say family is the most important thing and yet you never see your family, that's not really a value. If you say exercise is the most important thing to you, or your exercise is a value that you have, and being fit is a value of yours. And yet you never exercise, but you think it o exercise is important, but you never exercise. That's not really a value for you. You have to be honest about what your values are so that you know who you are, right and wrong. And then if you say, you know what exercise is a value of mine, then you need to start going to the gym. You maybe need to get a trainer or read a book or watch some videos or, or take some steps towards that. If that really is going to be a value of yours, then you have to change. All of this leads to change. And knowing that changing is okay and it's part of life, but it's directed change. It's making a decision of how you're going to change and make things better.

00:20:50 Sayan: Yeah. And it's a, it's a beautiful example that you shared. And I think it's very common, right? When you're thinking about something. Uh, you know, subconsciously that you like exercise, but you hardly show up at exercise, right? You think that it's, it's your core value, but it's not. So I think, yeah, that's a, that's a beautiful piece of advice, something that you show up for every day. I mean, that's that's that's for sure. Is sincerity, right? So if there is one thing, uh, that I would want my listeners to take away from this conversation is this, uh, I think sincerity isn't a vibe. It's, it's a practice that makes trust possible. And you take any, uh, any place, for example, that could be your work, that could be at home, that could be at relationship. It's, it's a, it's a practice. And that, that is something that makes people around you trust better. So, uh, would want you to sit with that thought for a few seconds as we wrap up the conversation. So Joshua, for people who want to go deeper, uh, where's the best place for them to find you and your, uh, book the s word? And, uh, also if they want to explore more about the sort framework in general.

00:21:53 Joshua Routh: Yeah, the s word book is on Amazon right now. So it's the S word. Joshua Roth and you can also go to my website, Joshua dot com. That's J o s h u a R o u t h dot com.

00:22:09 Sayan: Okay, so, Perfect. I'll include the details in the show notes for everyone who are listening to this right now. So you could easily find the book as well. And Joshua, would you mind to also share your website or LinkedIn or any socials that you would like to mention?

00:22:24 Joshua Routh: Yeah. Joshua dot com is my website. And if you go to my website on the top of the page, there's a link to all of my socials, Instagram, Substack, medium, all that. So just go to Joshua dot com. It's at the top of the page.

00:22:39 Sayan: Perfect. We'll include that in the links as well. Alright, so folks, uh, beautiful. I mean, uh, thanks for being here and, uh, tuning in for this, uh, episode. And if this, today's conversation actually stir something in you, maybe a hard conversation that you have been avoiding for for a while or for a long while, or a version of you that's tired of performing? Take that seriously. Not with pressure, but with kindness. Because I think sincerity doesn't demand perfection. It does ask for presence. So this was sacred harmony. And my name is cyan. And until next time folks, may you lead with truth, repair with courage and connect without the mask.