[00:00:02] we went to put one in and the mirror had come off its backing board and we didn't have enough time to glaze them either, because the opening was happening within a few hours or something, it was that close, it was kind of ridiculous.

[00:00:17] I think that no art is better than bad art.

[00:00:20] It makes perfect sense to hire professionals, well you should do that with art as well. I think you should hire professionals and to the best that you can not have the general public decide always on what the best art is. Because honestly, they probably won't know what will stand the test of time and what won't

[00:00:39] there is to all art a bit of mystery, as in how it comes about. I mean, I guess good artists always do that. They're communicating something to you and then you feel the connection of what they felt when they made the work and it feels like it's made for you.

[00:00:58] Welcome to the Installation Art Podcast, the number one and only podcast about installation art and the people who work with it.

[00:01:07] In this show, you will hear about the joys and challenges of the medium and get an exclusive behind the scenes look at the career and process of internationally renowned guests. I am your host, Anastasia Parmson, and my guest today is an internationally acclaimed artist whose work explores perception, space and site.

[00:01:31]  Natasha Johns Messenger is an Australian American installation artist with a fascinating portfolio that spans large scale architectural interventions, optical illusion works, and public art commissions. She has exhibited at the Venice Architecture Biennale, created public art for New York City, and won the Rabobank Den Haag Sculpture Prize Netherlands.

[00:01:56] Today we'll dive into the idea of site determined work. We'll talk about Natasha's interesting analogy between installation art and theater, and we'll explore the challenges of creating permanent public art. It is my absolute pleasure to introduce today's guest, Natasha Johns Messenger.

[00:02:19] I thought maybe let's start with some quick easy questions, first thing that comes to mind.

[00:02:26] Mm hmm.

[00:02:27] Tell me about a secret hobby or interest that you have.

[00:02:31] I love cold water dipping.

[00:02:33] Really?

[00:02:34] Yeah, really freezing water, to wake myself up. First time I did it was at my sister lives in a place called Blackwood and there's a water hole and it's freezing in the winter. I went in the winter

[00:02:47] Whoa.

[00:02:48] dipped in the water and since then I've been doing it kind of regularly because it was almost like a feeling of bliss afterwards.

[00:02:56] Hmm.

[00:02:57] that shock.

[00:02:58] I've heard that, but no, there's no way you're getting me into. I think the bottom temperature for me is like 16 degrees.

[00:03:09] right,

[00:03:10] That would be my cold dip. Yeah.

[00:03:15] I did get them to check it once. And it kind of hurts a little bit. But you get used to breathing through it and it's all like a real achievement as well. my longest time I do it is three minutes at a go I do, like, one and a half minutes to two minutes.

[00:03:30] Cool. What's your favorite beverage to drink in the studio when you're working?

[00:03:36] coffee.

[00:03:37] How do you take your coffee?

[00:03:39] You know what? I take it on all different ways. In the studio I have a black coffee. When I'm out I have almond milk coffee. And at home I have coffee with regular milk. So I'm a bit odd.

[00:03:52] Hmm, okay. It is odd this day and age where everybody has that very specific, weird coffee order.

[00:04:01] Yeah. I think because an almond latte is like this little treat. And then in the studio I just have black coffee because it's easier and you never know if the milk is good or not in the fridge.

[00:04:14] Mm hmm.

[00:04:15] shared with a bunch of humans so I've just gotten used to black. And home, yeah, my girlfriend and I just have milk coffee. So I just change around.

[00:04:26] Mm hmm. What's something you're not very good at?

[00:04:30] Oh, I'm not very good at remembering moves of the body. So for example, if you wanted me to do a dance and I had to remember the dance, I wouldn't remember the dance, I'd get really confused. At the gym even, if I have to remember how to do a certain move on the gym, it takes me a long time to learn it. I don't know why, but I just can't remember body moves. That's what I'm not good at.

[00:04:58] Okay. And who's somebody who's had a significant impact on your work?

[00:05:06] Robert Irwin, probably the biggest influence on my work, I'd say. just his specific use of site and perception together. That's been the biggest influence, I'd say because he's using both and he's quite mysterious. And there is to all art, I think, a bit of mystery, as in how it comes about. And so I feel like I understand him on a level that I can't quite explain, like we're sort of connected. I mean, I guess good artists always do that. They feel like they connect you because they're communicating something to you and then you feel the connection of what they felt when they made the work. You feel that and it feels like it's made for you. But I guess a lot of other people feel that when it's good work.

[00:05:52] Mm, beautiful.

[00:05:53] Like a great book, it feels like it's written for you.

[00:05:57] Okay, well, let's talk a bit about your beginnings as an artist. Tell me a bit about where did you grow up and how did you discover art for yourself in your youth?

[00:06:11] Yeah well, I decided pretty early that I was going to be an artist, so probably about age four.

[00:06:18] Wow.

[00:06:19] Yeah, it was that early. I was really kind of obsessed with the painting station at the kindergarten. And I was very serious about it, actually, even at that young age. I Only have a couple of paintings left from that, I was going to say that period, but it was something that I really enjoyed doing from that young. And then it was my favorite subject along with maths all through school.

[00:06:45] Art and maths. Wow.

[00:06:48] and interestingly, I do use art and maths now. I guess I could have Become an architect, my work is very architectural, but I think the freedom that I have as an artist is more appealing than you could ever have with, you know, being an architect because you have to have a different relationship to functionality.

[00:07:08] So to discard that relationship and have that more open approach. And then of course, as I got older, art became a bigger idea. It wasn't just about making pictures, but you could connect all sorts of other philosophies, et cetera, to it. And so it ended up being able to, I guess, feed me in lots of different ways. From a little kid, I was really into drawing and painting. That's where it all sort of started, you know.

[00:07:35] Mm hmm.

[00:07:36] It's interesting because a lot of my work, I deal with illusions in terms of periscope optics and so on. Someone in an interview asked me, so when did you first get interested in illusions? And I kind of thought about it and thought actually learning how to paint or draw is all about illusions because you're taking the three dimensional world and you're trying to make a two dimensional representation of it, and that is an attempt at an illusion. Because the illusion when you're learning how to draw something figurative, you're pretending that this two dimensional plane is kind of a window into another space. And so you, you have to learn how to flatten perspective, et cetera. So illusions start then. So then deepening that understanding over time became an immense interest in a different way.

[00:08:28] And was there something from your childhood that had an impact on you as an artist today?

[00:08:34] Yeah. I would say the biggest connection that I can make about myself as a kid and the art that I make today would be asking any adult around at the time, like, so hang on a second, how does the universe work? How big is it? What's at the end of it? And what's at the end of that and what do you mean there's no end?

[00:08:57] And sort of understanding that adults didn't know what was going on with the universe. And then somehow learning about a star in the sky might not exist. It might be millions of years old and the light's traveling to me, but that I can see it, but it doesn't exist anymore. And so that throughline has carried me through so many explorations.

[00:09:22] The idea of what's real in front of me. So that, from childhood, that was that questioning. And as I said before, mixing together, not just painting and drawing, but then adding a deeper philosophy to that idea over time and connecting it all together. And it hasn't stopped. The questioning. Yeah.

[00:09:42] So, you went to study art. Where did you study?

[00:09:46] Well, I studied at RMIT in the painting department back in the early nineties. You know, painting was still very big in art schools and all the art schools also were separated in terms of sculpture and painting and printmaking even, and jewellery making. And painting felt like the most revolutionary space, the space where all the action was happening. And so I went into painting. In other words, in the sculpture department, it was more sort of sculpture in terms of three dimensional forms rather than spatial practice. So I went through the painting department at RMIT. And initially I thought I might want to study filmmaking because I was also interested in filmmaking at around that age but there wasn't much choice in Melbourne in terms of becoming a film director, there were more choices in Sydney. And it just seemed easy to, I fell into art school in a way. I had friends of friends who were going to that same course and it was a natural progression. And I did all the way through to honors year in 1994.

[00:10:53] And so, how did you get into installation art from there?

[00:10:58] Oh, well, that was pretty interesting because as soon as I got into art school, we were being taught how to paint figuratively and there weren't many free projects at that point. Like they'd say, here's your life drawing class, here's your life painting class.

[00:11:14] And here's this photography class and it was quite directed. And then when we had our our chance to do whatever we felt like doing, I Went abstract really quickly. And I don't know what that was about, except that I'd spent a lot of time learning how to paint and draw, so I wasn't that interested in it anymore.

[00:11:32] I wanted to understand what abstraction meant, and I started to understand it. I had difficulty at first as a teenager trying to understand what a painting about nothing was. Like, for example, Rothko was very intriguing to me. And then at art school, it kind of clicked. I started to understand what it meant to engage with abstraction.

[00:11:53] So I started making lots of abstract pictures and from there, I became spatial pretty quickly. But that was through a specific teacher who started me thinking, and his name is Andy Thompson. And he's a writer and a thinker and an artist himself. But he introduced me to thinking about space and art in a different way than I thought before.

[00:12:15] And of course, painting led to minimalism, led to spatial art. And I think in art school, you go through all the motions yourself. You go from the figuration, then maybe to abstraction, then maybe to something else. And you kind of mimic the art historical lineage and you sort of play around with different things and you sort of test it all out and then you find your own little pathway hopefully.

[00:12:38] And so I became spatial pretty quickly and then for my third year at RMIT, I didn't hand in paintings, I handed in found paintings that were inside the space. At that stage, it was an art school since the sixties and it had like paint splats everywhere. And in my little studio, I did hand in some paintings, of course, but my main kind of artwork that I exhibited as a part of the folio was painted white around objects. So I painted a round picture on the floor, I found one on the desk, I found one on the wall. And so, in other words, you walk into a white space, and there were found paintings.

[00:13:16] And I guess that was my first proper installation, were these found paintings. And because no one really cared about splatting paint anywhere, I could just paint it white if I wanted to. So I painted my whole section white, and in those days you had your little studio compartment, and you could do anything you wanted, and then the lecturers would walk around and have a look at what you presented.

[00:13:38] And I guess most other students around me had a set of paintings and they'd go through the painting and have a look at them, but this was set up as an installation. And yeah. I was always trying to find my own way of doing things too. I wasn't you know, Like what's new in, I thought that was a really interesting aspect of art was that one movement leads to another movement leads to another movement.

[00:14:02] So you're always trying to kind of find your own distinction. You're trying to find a little through line to something that's you. And that was also appealing to me about art because I wasn't a person who easily followed the herd. As a general personality type, that wasn't me. So this was what I wanted to do, find my own little way. And so I was always looking for that as well.

[00:14:25] I love those stories when a teacher really helps somebody become the artist that they then become.

[00:14:34] Yeah.

[00:14:35] doesn't happen to a lot of people, unfortunately.

[00:14:38] Yeah. It's interesting because now that I know that that happened to me and I do a bit of teaching every now and then. I always try to be, I would love to be that person for somebody else that unlocks inside them. And it's about them. It's not about you telling them what to do, but it's about telling them that they are capable and amazing if they just apply this or that, you know so unlocking their idea of their own possibility.

[00:15:07] So how did you then go from that first installation at school to actually showing your installation work? Tell me about your first show or opportunity.

[00:15:21] So I graduated in 1994. from my honours year. And then, in those days you now know it as Gertrude Contemporary. It used to be called 200 Gertrude Street. And they had a section that was an open section to apply for an exhibition. And There was a director there called Rose Lang and Bala Starr who were really on the ground amazing curators and they were running the whole program. This is in the very early days of 200 Gertrude Street.

[00:15:53] And I applied for a show there with another friend of mine to do a photography exhibition that was all about the site of the block around the actual space, it was called Just the Block. And what we were going to do was walk around the block for six months and take photographs. And then exhibit those photographs inside the gallery in a quite a spatial way. So that was an installation. So for example if you imagine you have a pole and you have on it those reflective white and blue rectangles that identify some kind of electrical box or something, take a photograph of that.

[00:16:30] And then in the gallery, there was a column. So we took a photograph of that and put it on the column in the gallery. So we sort of spatialized the photographs and yeah, to our surprise, we were granted our first exhibition in that space. So that was my first kind of proper exhibition was at 200 Gertrude Street.

[00:16:48] And at the time it was a big deal for us because we were just fresh out of art school. And that was with my friend and artist, Kate Shaw. Hmm. So that would be the first one. And then there were a lot of artist run spaces in Melbourne at that time. And so I was just applying for all of those artist run spaces.

[00:17:05] There was one called Strip Gallery, another one called Bus Gallery. other spaces popping up, like another one called the Museum of Dirt. Which was actually an abandoned house in Collingwood. So I was just on the lookout for any kind of space that I could occupy and make works in.

[00:17:22] Then I went off to New York for a year in 1996 and actually had an exhibition over there in a gallery called 4E, which again was another young person's artist run space type of situation. And it was just in an apartment, actually, and I don't even have the photographs of that show anymore, because as you remember in 1996, it was like you know, you used to have to go down to the Photoshop and you'd film it, get it developed.

[00:17:47] And I just don't know where those photos are. But the gallery was called 4E, I can't even tell you who ran it. And that was a really important little show for me. And then I came back and did my master's in 1998 at RMIT and focused solely on installation art.

[00:18:06] Okay.

[00:18:07] Yep. So then I graduated from that in 2000. And by that time I'd been doing installations that whole six years in any way that I could. And then actually went back to Gertrude Street as a studio artist and got the studio there for two years. Which was sort of the first um, professional, move for me. And at the time, Max Delaney was the director and that led onto a lot of different opportunities for spatial work for me to sort of start spreading my wings and making work from there.

[00:18:38] So how did you end up in the States?

[00:18:42] Well that first time in 96 was just a you know, save up and go away, you know, like a. I've got to get out of this place. I've got to get out of Australia, go somewhere else. Then later it was, I guess, in Australia at that time I'd, I'd exhibited at Australian Centre for Contemporary Art, I'd exhibited at MCA, I'd exhibited at the, CCP, that's the Centre for Contemporary Photography. I'd exhibited at ACP, I'd exhibited at all these places that I really had goals to exhibit at in Australia, at PICA in Perth. And I felt like, you know, I needed to expand the scope of my practice. And I also realized that my works are so experience based that I'm not going to be able to spread my wings globally unless someone overseas can experience the work.

[00:19:34] So, I then applied for the ISCP studio through Australia Council, and I got that grant. So I was able to sort of start my way that way. Um, it Was a really nice way to start because it was connection to New York straight away. Because in that ISCP program, the director at the time, Sara Reisman she'd bring in a lot of amazing curators from all around the world.

[00:19:58] And so you could show your work and have a chat to them and there was like a little sheet next to the office and you could put your name down when a certain curator was coming. And that was a really nice way to kind of step into New York. And from there, I didn't leave until just before COVID pretty much. I wanted to come back to Australia because my parents were getting older. But at the same time, a lot had started to happen for me over there. And so it was an interesting time. I mean, I'm very happy to be back in Australia now, but I'm also a dual citizen. So I have the scope to go back when I like but I'm sort of enjoying Australia too much at the moment.

[00:20:34] And it's interesting how also you start to understand that you don't want to go out there and try and push your career, but you just got to work on making The production of your own practice a really serious and important Activity for yourself and to make it authentic and then the rest will sort of come it's this really interesting flow in terms of how to manage a career over that period of time, you know, just quite independently, to be honest.

[00:21:02] Do you think for the Artists who are listening, who are living somewhere outside of the contemporary art world hot zones especially making large scale work and installation work, is it even possible to basically get your work overseas without being there and making the work there?

[00:21:28] Depends on how experience based it is. When I say that, I mean, it depends how much it really relies on a real life experience from the participant viewer of the work. So for, for my work, it's, always better in terms of how it's communicated in any form to be there in real life. And sometimes you just have to be there, otherwise you don't get it. So for me, it's been paramount that you'd be there. And so if I lived in Zimbabwe or somewhere, it would be really hard for me to get people over there to see the work. If I live in Australia, it's sort of the same thing in some ways, you know, we are that far away.

[00:22:10] And most of the opportunities that I've been given have been from people who've actually experienced the work. And that's another reason why I went to New York, was to connect with real space, with real humans, so that I could expand the practice on the ground. but if you are making art that doesn't rely so much on that in real life experience, then social media and the way that the internet has created those communication mechanisms means that there's a lot of artists who might not have ever been connected to the global arena artistically and who can be now.

[00:22:48] I Think it just depends. And when I say that, for those artists who are out there who want to connect, you don't want to be a social media artist either. You don't want it to be all about that. Because then, in the end, I think unless your work is about that particular subject, and it wants to be a social media subject, there's a very fine line, I think.

[00:23:10] And there's a lot of artists out there who have one million followers and mediocre practice. And then there's other artists who have a great practice and hardly any followers. So it's a really interesting line to straddle and it's a really interesting time to be an installation artist.

[00:23:26] But for me personally, I'm sort of holding onto this real life experience and it's actually become almost a bit of a rebellion in some ways, because if you can only experience it in real l life, it's going to defy that digital realm a little bit.

[00:23:43] I can't be translated. So during COVID, I had the opportunity to have an exhibition at Station gallery and we talked to the gallery about possibly doing something online. And in the end it was like, absolutely no. This work is based on experience. In other words, experience, I don't use that term lightly. I use it in the most heavy sense in that I want your body inside the space experiencing the work. There's no other way of actually experiencing my, my installation practice than to be there. I

[00:24:20] Can always try to translate it into two dimensions. The best way might be video. I'm certainly not going to make a metaverse version of it because that is not what I'm interested in. I'm interested in perception and perception in the real body sense.

[00:24:36] Yeah. I think that's kind of a challenge for many installation artists that, you know, obviously we want as many people as possible to experience the work, but it's only really limited to that space and time where it is shown and the people who come out to see it.

[00:24:58] Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting in terms of something like theatre and film as an analogy. Because I went to see, Streetcar Named Desire with Cate Blanchett at BAM in New York, and she was absolutely brilliant. And I was amazed that she was able to hold this kind of space on a Tuesday night in this theater. And watching that performance again, you had to be there to feel that. I've seen her, on film, watched a million movies that she's in, and I've never had that kind of experience. So she's able to kind of leverage her talent in a way and have it out in the world and be simultaneously watched by 10, 000 people at any time they want by their own little devices. But I think the special thing that she has to offer, it was the most delicate in that moment when she's on stage and connecting. And I think some artists out there, they have the ability to leverage what they do as well in that they can replicate it in some way and give people a sense of what they're doing in a two dimensional form that can be omnipresent on the internet. But me, I'm a bit like a theater actor who only performs on stage. I can you know, make art that you can go and see, but I'm a little bit, yeah, like I'm, I'm a pure theater actor. I just want to be on the stage doing what I'm doing. You have to come. And in that way, my works become like sets and you have to come to them and experience them.

[00:26:33] And I have had situations where thousands of people have come to see a specific show. Like, say, upwards of a hundred thousand people seeing one particular exhibition at a time. And that's my favorite way to do it if I can, but that would be a museum show that's open for three months. And it's very successful et cetera.

[00:26:54] So, my ultimate aim is to create permanent works that are inside buildings that are dedicated to an installation. And so far that hasn't happened and that's fine, but that will eventually happen. There will be a space where you can come and see my work and it's permanently displayed, even if it's in my house.

[00:27:14] Mm hmm.

[00:27:15] you know, or wherever, but I don't think it will be. But so the closest I've come to that so far is that a museum has acquired a work and they know which corner of the gallery, because it's very specific to that space, they know where it goes in that space and then they can open it up again and put it back in that space and then you can come and see it. But yeah, the ultimate goal for me is almost to make the building and funnily enough I'm actually studying, I'm doing my PhD in architecture at the moment so maybe that's going to lead me to that space, I don't know. We'll see yeah.

[00:27:48] So how do you approach the connection between your work and the space that it will occupy?

[00:27:56] Very sensitively. In that one of my premises during my Master's about studying site was that there's no such thing as a white cube. Because of course a white cube you couldn't even enter it, because where's the door? So I used to study the galleries themselves and try to acknowledge the space as if it was a canvas of mine.

[00:28:18] And so it's a canvas of existing elements and then those elements become part of the subject matter. So recently I had a photograph that was exhibited as part of the Bowness Photographic Prize. And I, as a site photographer, and I think I've coined that term, I'm not sure, site photograph in that the photograph is taken at the site and exhibited inside that site. So, in order for me to enter the prize, I had to go to the gallery, and then I had to go again, and then I had to go again, because I was photographically investigating the space, in order to then pop a photograph out the other end that I was going to exhibit.

[00:29:00] And I ended up being one of the chosen artists to be in the Bowness Prize that year. And when you ask me how I approach it: I approach it a bit like an onion that needs to be peeled off and peeled off and peeled off and peeled off. And there's a lot more there than you think is there. And it's sort of like a metaphor for any space that you're in, in that there's more to meets the eye than you initially think.

[00:29:25] That is also another big theme of my work, which is what is real in front of me? Where's the truth here? in Other words I'm wanting to, to investigate it really deeply. And understand it in order to, try to induce for myself, and then for the participant viewer of the work, this idea that where you are is everything, as in we only have this one moment. This is it.

[00:29:50] It's an interesting one to try to contemplate, but um, we're just in this constant unfolding, you know, it's a cliche now, but now is constantly unfolding. And so in that way if you can make people more aware of where they are when they're there then hopefully that might induce an awareness. I'm trying to find that awareness for myself and then I'm trying to give that to you. So by making you more aware of where you are, then hopefully it's like a, um... well that's why I use the mirrors as well, because when I'm using a mirror as an illusion, it's just showing a space that's already there.

[00:30:27] But if it's done in such a way that you're not quite sure what's real in front of you, then you're on a higher alert, and that opens up this awareness. And then also the other people in the space become part of the subject matter of that site investigation, like someone else walking around. So when you ask me how I approach looking at space, it's deeply.

[00:30:49] Is your work always site specific then?

[00:30:52] yes, it's always related to the site. And I would say there's an interesting distinction between site specific and site determined. or site responsive. So, I do come to an exhibition space or a space with certain methodologies that I've used in the past. I Bring methodologies to the spaces, but I also um, sometimes the space talks back to me and tells me things that I didn't know before. So it's not just site specific as in I'm responding, but it's actually site determined. So the site makes the work happen.

[00:31:32] So, for example, sometimes, I might not have a clue what I'm doing, and I think about it like an architectural improvisation. So I'll go and stand in the space and just be there, and then I might cut into a wall. And then the cutting into the wall might make the next action happen, which then makes the next action happen, which makes the next action happen. So it's almost like An improvisation that each step is predicated on the step before,

[00:32:02] Mm hmm.

[00:32:02] step before. So it's process based within space, which is actually really hard logistically to do with certain museums and so on, because they want to know what you're going to do and when you're going to do it.

[00:32:13] So to try to keep the space open to just let me do what I want is Not so easy sometimes. Especially now with so many regulations around what you can and can't do. And then, you know, the health and safety thing over here and the this and that over here. I'm sort of always craving this very free environment to work in. And that's why I also set up sometimes very independent spaces. Almost have like a studio experiment that then I just opened to the public. Which is what I did recently with a piece called Axis

[00:32:43] at a place in Preston, which was a studio dedicated for experiment for artists run by a guy called Jason Mayling. So it's called Strange Engine. And I took it over essentially for about a year and created a very specific work inside that space and was reacting to the space inside the space. And interestingly, talking about ideas of funding and so on, this is like an independent act as an artist because I'm not in the museum at that point. I'm trying to investigate the work for the sake of doing the work.

[00:33:16] Like during COVID, because it was such an upheaval in so many different ways. And in Melbourne, there were a few artists that passed away in my peer group. And it made me think, goodness, we are only on the planet for a certain amount of time. Let's get to these projects that you always wanted to do, but you didn't get to do before. And to try to fast track making projects happen that you always have in the back of your mind, but you didn't get around to doing.

[00:33:46] But also just make the work because you're making the work, not because someone's invited you to do something or because you want put it on your CV. in other words, The moment of making the work has to be as authentic as you can make it at any turn. Because what's the point of it all? the motivation for doing what you're doing is shifting all the time, something like COVID just kind of slaps you into place and says, Hey, you don't live forever. You want to get this out? Go for it. Do it. Just make it happen. Let's make this work. And so, something like an experimental space where you can just make what you need to make becomes more important as a practicioner.

[00:34:25]

[00:34:26] of your works look very elaborately built that require expertise in specific materials, like somewhere other. Do you outsource part of your production process?

[00:34:41] Oh yeah, so somewhere or other was actually John Wardle Architects' piece and I came in as an invited artist to collaborate with him on the internal section. And that was made by a group in Geelong called Jacaranda, an incredible cabinet maker group. And I think for me, I used to build a lot of my own works as in physically build walls and structures and put the mirrors on and glaze them myself, et cetera.

[00:35:10] But of course I always needed help to do that. But I act a lot like a minimalist artist in that often I'm close to the process. I don't have a studio that has all the cutting equipment and everything. I don't have a studio that makes the glass, I don't have a studio that does it. But little things I can do for myself, but I Almost always outsource. And in that sense, I act like an architect. Because I'm deciding all the materials, I'm designing everything but I'm outsourcing those.

[00:35:43] Having said that, for some of the public works it acts the same. So I have a wonderful group that I've worked with called EMT, European Museum Tech, and they recently made a public artwork for me for Monash University. And Bluebottle, who are a lighting company, who also collaborated. So again, I'm acting like a director or slash an architect in that I've designed the work and then I'm on top of every detail. I'm working with teams to help realize their technical sides. And I don't need to know all the ins and outs of the technical side. I just need to know what the outcome is going to be for that particular light or product or. And then how it works. But it depends, Because I do make lots of different types of art, depends how close I can be to that process.

[00:36:31] For the photographs, it's just me. But for all installation works, you're always working with teams. Like mostly museum shows have a team that's allocated to you for the duration of the show. So you say, On the first day you meet the team, so you might have between one person and 10 people, depending on the scope of the show. I love working with other people though on the works. It's like one of my favorite things to do is to work through all the different interesting problems and resolve issues and, you know, that process. And often a lot of the art comes out of that process as well. Those nuances.

[00:37:11] And how do you go about finding the right collaborators and convincing busy professionals to get on board with an unconventional art project?

[00:37:23] Well you pay them basically. I don't ever ask people to work for free. Because I'll do my best to get the funding or however it comes about. And if I find someone good, I'll use them again and then I'll use them again. So over the years I've worked a lot with Brian Scales, for example, and he's a builder who's worked with numerous, I mean, too many to mention artists, mostly in Victoria. He's built a lot of installations for me. I have a an amazing person who helped me build the axis piece with Brian Hugh Smith, who is more sort of on the structural side. I now have engineers that I work with at, repeat engineers. Because engineers are really important, especially for the big public works, because They need to be able to accommodate your wants and sort of push the engineering in a direction that is viable, but also artistic.

[00:38:16] And that's really, really important. So there's a group in Ballarat called On Beam that I work with. Another steel guy is Derek John, worked with him before I met him when he was working on the John Wardle piece. Yeah, I just find people and then I collect them, you know, as best I can and keep them close because the really good ones are fantastic and, and it's not just about their skill set. It's also about the way that they operate as human beings when you're working with them because you're often

[00:38:45] often stressful situations. You know, you're having to work out problems. You might be not having a great day and you have to meet up with them in the morning, you know, it's sort of like a constant battleground sometimes when you're at the crux end of the the deadline or whatever it is.

[00:39:02] So, yeah in New York, I had different people as well that I worked with as repeat people. And again, if I really like working with them, I'll always just use them again. I'll call them up and see. So I've got different teams, different fabrication companies for different projects. So steel people, more complicated objects or just straight building. Yeah, so there's all, different types.

[00:39:27] You've mentioned making public art several times now. Tell me about how does your approach differ between the two mediums, creating installation art and creating public art?

[00:39:43] Mm Yeah so the obvious difference comes from the parameters set by the actual work itself. So for example, a public work is often outdoors and has to deal with the elements and also has to deal with disruptive humans, you know, who might want to graffiti or smash it down or whatever. So there's all those different elements. And the installation works are often more controlled environments and you can control the lighting, you control the, you know, there's not, usually the elements aren't there, not even the light and day requirements might not be the same, so the outdoor works are much more difficult logistically.

[00:40:23] And I'm trying to navigate that at the moment and always wanting to find the best possible artistic solution to these public art propositions. And it's very interesting because, I wonder about that and how, how those public works are situated in the broader practice and how. You know, which ones I kind of like to do more or not to do more. And just to be clear, public art is better funded normally because someone's paying for a public work to be made and the museum ones could be just as well funded if you get funding or a grant or something to do those, but often they might be self funded.

[00:41:03] So there's these economical issues andd there's also other things going on. So they're very different approaches. But the ultimate creative response and the want to have my core concerns translated into public art are always present. So I'm trying always to make sure the core concerns about perception and site and the nature of reality itself, the constructed reality that we live in those core concerns, I'm trying to bring them to public art and I'm still getting there. You know, it's at this process of unfolding. So I sometimes think, well, how am I going to look back at this work when I'm 70 years old, driving past it on the freeway or whatever.

[00:41:50] So if you imagine that you're doing something that's like a play that is up for three months, like that analogy we used before, and then it's over.It doesn't have to be lasting. So there's a beauty to the immediacy of it. Public art has a different kind of thing going on because it's going to be there for longer. It's going to be up for longer. It's going to represent you for a lot longer. So another thing you're navigating there, which is the longevity of the thing. So it's almost like you can be free and open over here and then here you have to be a little bit more restricted.

[00:42:24] I guess it might be like doing a movie and having that performance in that blockbuster film that's there for a time and eternity. And then you have this particular move as an actor that you're going to make on one night and you're going to just try it out and see if it works. And you don't know if it's going to land on the audience or not. It's sort of very different and I'm sort of straddling the two worlds a lot at the moment. But I'm certainly wanting to keep the the live performance aspect alive as much as possible. So I'm wanting to reinstate those.

[00:42:57] Because public art works keep coming, as in being quite successful in the public art realm. I've had like four commissions in the last couple of years and then they seem to be keeping on coming, which is great. Because that's also a way to um, it's a way to fund my career and sustain itself, if that makes sense. But the other works, they feel more like I can experiment more over here, you know? I can get back to the basics over here. I can push the boundaries more over here. So that's what I love about that. So I love both, but they're, yeah, very, very different to answer your question.

[00:43:38] Yeah. There's been this question discussed on this podcast before about should public art be permanent or should the contracts involve a clause about revisiting the work every, say, ten years to make sure that it's still relevant to the site and the context. What do you think of that?

[00:44:01] Yeah, I think that no art is better than bad art. You know, there's a few examples and I won't name them. I can think of one in Melbourne and I can think of one in Sydney that are absolutely abysmal public works that have not been able to be removed and taken down because of the contract or whatever. And on the one hand I understand that, but I also understand that if you have to look at it every day and it's a kind of an assault on your senses because it just doesn't do anything. It hasn't stood the test of time and then you have to live with it in your environment. I can imagine that makes sense to turn it around and say, look, you know, we've changed our minds, we don't want that in our space.

[00:44:42] Having said that, you've got to be careful of the public, the general public and their opinions about art, because they can often be really very negative and let's just say wrong.

[00:44:56] I mean, you can't really say that because when it comes to matters of taste, let there be no dispute, right? We know that. You can't really argue taste. But that's also the beauty and the curse of art. So, for example in Melbourne we had Rob Roberts and Swan's Vault, which is now outside ACCA, that yellow sculptural object, which was shunned and disputed when it first arrived as some kind of travesty. Some kind of eyesore, some kind of waste of public money and it has stood the test of time. And it has been resurrected, it's gone from the city square to a couple of car parks and then ended up outside the Australian Centre for Contemporary Art, which is where it deserves to be.

[00:45:37] And interestingly around it, the types of architecture that have developed around the city since the inception of that work, have actually in some way, stylistically mimicked this oblique angle, abstract form. It's really lived into its own. It doesn't look like something that is controversial anymore.

[00:45:57] It looks like something

[00:45:58] Mm hmm.

[00:45:58] that makes perfect sense. Has an interesting trajectory. And on the term arc, I just thought of um, Richard Sarah's arc. That was put on the um, quadrangle in New York City in 1989, I think it was. And

[00:46:14] The famous publicc square.

[00:46:15] yeah, I think it was outside the, um, can't remember the building, the multicultural center. Anyway, that quadrangle. And what it did was it arced across and the desire lines of the humans who were going to work and commuting across the square were outraged because it was right in their way, basically. What is this big fence that's doing nothing sitting here, making me have to walk around it. And they protested so much and of course it's Richard Serra. I mean, his work is absolutely, as far as I'm concerned, brilliant. And they're lucky to have it so close to them when they're walking at work.

[00:46:54] But again, time told a different story. So some works get better with time and some don't. Interestingly on that note, I heard of this other work that Richard Serra did in Mexico City where he hired a truck and the truck was just a big semi trailer with a big white box back and it had bulletproof cabinet. And he instructed the driver to cut across five lanes of traffic and stay there in peak hour for five minutes. And then they took aerial shots of this amazing piece from above. And so the piece is all about this obstruction of traffic. So in front of the truck, you've got this beautiful free space. And of course, behind the truck, you've got absolute irate humans.

[00:47:44] And so he's made this artwork and I um, absolutely love that one. But the idea that the general public decide, I don't think is right. I think art professionals should decide. And when I say that, an art professional, it's like when someone asks an engineer: should we build the bridge over here or over here?

[00:48:06] It's like certain professions, it makes perfect sense to hire professionals, well you should do that with art as well. I think you should hire professionals and to the best that you can not have the general public decide always on what the best art is. Because honestly, they probably won't know what will stand the test of time and what won't because it's not their... it's not their profession.

[00:48:30] There's a lot that goes into understanding what art is, what contemporary art is, what's important in art. And I know it's a really fraught area because, as I said before, you can't argue taste because it's not arguable because it's a subjective experience.

[00:48:46] But in that case, then you probably should leave it to at least set of professionals, you know. Who then at least you get a breadth of opinions within a professional field. And it is a professional field, even though it's open to um, the public think that they have the right to say anything they want about art. And they do. They might not be the most educated in that area. And maybe it's not just about education, but the most I Guess professional in that area. yeah, so I, the answer would be depending on who decides at that 10 year period, perhaps a good idea.

[00:49:22] Hmm. Yeah, I think one of my previous guests who makes public art actually has put that clause in his own work for him to decide. To look at it every 10 years or so and say, is this still okay?

[00:49:40] Yeah. That's interesting because if he's made a terrible artwork and he knows that he can just get rid of it, then can't he?

[00:49:47] Or if the context has changed around the work to a point where it doesn't serve the work anymore. Yeah.

[00:49:54] Yeah. It's interesting. Yeah. It is. It is. hard. Public art is the most difficult. As far as I'm concerned, it's the most difficult. Because, because of the scrutiny that it's up for, as well as because of the elements you're dealing with. As well as the fact that it has to not just weather time in terms of stylistically and its relevance in other conceptual ways, but it's literal weathering of time, it has to live so it's not destroyed by the elements in a way that looks crappy after a while, you know? So,

[00:50:30] so many aspects to that. But yeah, as I said before, no art is always better than bad art. So, I would always think take it away if it doesn't work.

[00:50:42] Can you share a behind the scenes story about some unexpected issues you have faced during your installation or work process?

[00:50:53] Yeah, well there was one time in Sydney where I'd pre made an installation and everything was kind of ready and organized and the mirrors were the last thing to come into the space. Everything was going really smoothly and I'd checked the mirrors before they came to Sydney from Melbourne and they were all great. And I even had a spare mirror in case one of them broke on the way. And then they got to Sydney and just for the audience to understand too.

[00:51:23] In my work, I'm using mirrors as an illusion, like as in a life size periscope. So when you walk into the space, You have to look at a nice clean mirror. Looks like it's extending space rather than you're looking at your own reflection.

[00:51:37] And in that way, I had set up three mirrors in this particular installation. And so the mirrors were going to be coming in and completing the whole installation. In other words, without the mirrors there is no installation because it's all about the participant viewer and how they move. their bodies through space in these life size sort of periscope setups.

[00:51:59] so The mirrors came, everything else was ready for them and we went to put one in and the mirror had come off its backing board and someone had used the wrong tape. There was this very special tape and the tape had been jiggling around in the truck. So none of the mirrors were adhered to the boards, and we didn't have enough time, there was already a delay with the truck, and we didn't have enough time to glaze them either, as in put silicone properly on them, because the opening was happening within a few hours or something, it was that close, it was kind of ridiculous.

[00:52:36] So

[00:52:37] Wow.

[00:52:38] we had to find someone in Sydney who could help us glaze, also there's regulations when it comes to glazing. We had to find a glazier who was able to get the right materials and everything and get these mirrors adhered back onto the boards and then installed within a few hours. And someone knew someone knew someone and this guy called Hairy turned up. And Hairy was literally hairy and he was tall and he was fantastic. And I think it was like late in the afternoon anyway, he'd obviously had a long lunch and been drinking or whatever because he'd probably knocked off for the day as those tradies do, they knock off at three or four.

[00:53:18] So he was quite tipsy. And he was our only hope, was Tipsy Hairy, and he came in and he actually ended up absolutely saving the day. So he came through, and I just remember him being a little bit drunk and trying really hard to concentrate and you know, of course I'm in the background tearing my hair out or I'm in the car meditating to get away. But uh, yeah, it ended up being absolutely fine. And it was like a divine intervention some kind of magic that we found this guy And then it was all all it all's well that ends.

[00:53:54] Well

[00:53:55] Mhmm. Hairy saved the day.

[00:53:58] Hairy did, yeah! Another one that comes to mind is a work that I did in New York. It was called Alterview

[00:54:06] and it's a large glass work embedded into the terrace fence of a school as a part of Public Art For Public Schools and the New York Public Art the Percent for Art, sorry. This piece, I designed it and it was basically a big piece of glass inside a terrace fence. It was pretty big, but I was told by the engineers that it couldn't be done. And so we had the main meeting with the architects who actually, they had the ultimate say on which particular work was going to be stamped and approved for production because it was going into their building. And I thought I'm going to keep it in there anyway, to see what happens, because this is a piece that I really, it's my favourite piece.

[00:54:49] And in the end, the partner of the, um, architecture firm, Sylvia Smith was in the room and she decided that was her favourite piece. And when they said, oh, we've already told Natasha that that can't be built, because the engineers said, no, she was like, she overrode it and said, what about this building where that happened and this happened? Of course it can be built. We just have to engineer the shoe underneath and put it in, blah, blah, blah, so go ahead and do it. And that was a really pivotal moment for me because at that point I knew I have this little saying called: what if the Queen of England wanted it? Could it be made? How far can you push the engineers? How far can you create new possibilities and Make them happen because you just push that little extra, you know.

[00:55:33] So that was pretty interesting to watch because now whenever I want something done I think what if I was Sylvia Smith and I said I want that . So let's go back and not just take what the engineer says. Of course, we have to have engineering done properly, but there are more possibilities within the engineering, it's not so fixed. And now that I have Engineers that I work with a lot, you know, also know how to push the engineering, which is extremely important in my work.

[00:56:02] So what do you tell people now if somebody says, Oh no, this can't be done?

[00:56:07] Well, I usually get a second opinion, at least and say, well, if that can't be done, then what can we do to get as close as we can to that? Say for example, if it can only go 15 meters high and I wanted it to be 16 meters high, maybe it can go 15 meters high if I change the base. Or maybe it can, you know what I mean, like you're constantly trying to work out possibilities.

[00:56:32] You see, because nobody wants it more than I want it to happen, the way I want it to happen. most people will take the easy road out and that includes engineers and everybody that want to stamp the job, get on to the next one. Nobody wants it more than I do to be different. So in this case, going back to the Sylvia Smith example, she wanted that one so then she made it happen.

[00:56:58] So if you have someone on your team who's got the power to help you, that's even better. Which is why it's so important to work with engineers that understand that they're also trying to get your vision put in place as best they can. Because you want that vision to come to fruition because That's the vision.

[00:57:18] Yeah. That's a powerful lesson. Tell me about a time when you had to make a difficult decision in your career.

[00:57:29] A difficultt decision... yeah, let me think. Well it's not really difficult, but it was kind of difficult in that I'd always wanted to make films as well as be an artist. And when I was in New York for those 12 years, I decided to pursue film directing. And in order to do that, I had to put my art career a little bit on hold because it ended up taking five years to do this master's in filmmaking at Columbia University.

[00:57:59] And it was difficult to make the decision because there was such a good momentum on my art career. But in the end, I thought I should make the decision to pursue filmmaking because I always imagined that I'd be directing movies in my fifties, I don't know why I imagined that, but I did. I thought if I'm going to be doing that in my fifties, I better learn how to do it properly.

[00:58:21] I don't want to be one of these artists who just think they can start film directing without having learned a craft. Because I think that in order to do anything properly you have to learn the craft. Out of respect for the thing that you're doing, but also because You're not going to be able to make the best creative decisions unless you understand what you're leaving behind or what you're leaving on the table when you make a creative decision. You need to understand the craft in order to let it go.

[00:58:46] So for example, with me becoming like an installation artist, I gave up painting in a way. And for me to become an abstract painter, I sort of gave up figurative painting, but I knew how to do it. you can't just start nowhere without understanding the journey that it took to get there. So I thought I need to go for this journey.

[00:59:06] So that was a big decision to make because everything was going well with the art career and all of a sudden I'm turning around and going off to study film for five years. But it was what I wanted to do. So sometimes you do things that don't on the outside and look like they make sense.

[00:59:22] But I got so much out of that course and I've made two short films that I'm very proud of. And I haven't made a feature yet. But now I can take those skills and I have them, they're in here. They're in my mind. And I can use those to make the movie one day. And I probably will make a, oh, I will make a feature film one day. Um, so Yeah, that was an interesting kind of not, not a 180, but totally different set of studies. Because I do make abstract films, but this was not about that. This was making narrative films. So I wanted to find out what sort of narrative films I would make.

[00:59:59] It's a bit like, in my head, I had this idea, I thought because you have to make these short films, you know, as a part of the master's program, you have to make short films. So if I took Anastasia and I said, Hey, Anastasia, I'm going to put you through this program and at the end, you're going to pop out with two movies. What do they look like, these movies? And I thought to myself, what do my movies look like? I don't even know. So I wanted to find out what sort of films I would pop out the other end with. So I had to go and do it. And that was really fascinating. So, yeah.

[01:00:32] Did your art career gain something from that or suffer from that?

[01:00:38] I think it probably suffered from it in terms of momentum in certain directions, but it gained other things. And in the end it doesn't matter because it's all part of it. I love the idea that one day the whole story makes sense. You know, the whole story of your life makes sense one day. Even when certain moves happen and you go, Oh, because, um, I broke up with that person or this thing happened or that thing happened, that's what led me to here. And at the time it was, you know, pain and suffering and whatever, but now it makes sense because I wouldn't be here without all of those things having happened. So it's a bit like that. The creative journey is just what it is.

[01:01:12] And I think you just have to be yourself, you know,

[01:01:15] Yeah,

[01:01:16] and that'sv valuable in, in itself. If you can hold on to that.

[01:01:22] What would you say has been the biggest opportunity for you so far?

[01:01:28] I would say the exhibition at Heide Museum. I had a solo exhibition at Heide Museum of Art in 2016, curated by Linda Michael. And that was the first time that I was able to explore a whole space to myself as an installation artist. And there were at least three rooms in there and it was the most significant career moment for me. But it was more about artistic moment.

[01:01:55] It was an artistic moment because the space was quite large. It was a whole museum, solo exhibition. And I loved every minute of it. I loved the minute from the beginning to the end. And in fact, I want to do it again. And I know that I can do it. It wasn't daunting to have all that space, it was like a relief to have that much space to play with. Because I'm usually playing in this corner or that corner. But I want to play in the whole room, you know? And you don't get that many opportunities as a spatial site artist to do that. Because it requires an external space that is given to you or you know, you commandeer for a certain amount of time.

[01:02:41] So and I also had the funding from the museum and then I had the funding from the Australia Council for the same show. So the space plus the funding together was just magical. And it's, it's like the dream, you know, to keep having moments like that. So that was definitely the most important for me. Also to see what I might come up with as well, like putting myself through a film school, it's like, what movies might I come up with? If you say: I want you to do this whole exhibition, this whole area, this is your space, go! What might I come up with there? You know and so I want to do that again.

[01:03:20] How long did you have to create the work for that show?

[01:03:24] about a year and a half, a year. And then sort of months of building and then the show was up to three months.

[01:03:32] Cool.

[01:03:33] And there's a catalogue online for that show um, which sort of shows most of the work. But again, like I said much earlier in the podcast, you know, it's very experiential, but you can get a sense at least.

[01:03:45] Mm hmm. Yeah

[01:03:46] And that was up and then it was gone. So if you didn't see it, you just didn't see it. it's not recreatable like a certain performance.

[01:03:54] Mm hmm. Except if you remake it in that same exact space?

[01:03:59] Not even then, because the elements around it have changed and also often the architecture changes and things modify in the spaces. So certain sight lines and such don't line up. Yeah, so it's not, it's also the people who were there building it with me and the certain energy in the space um... It's possible to recreate it, yes. But not very easily. And also there's something about that time and space. So it was kind of timely in a way. It's almost like if you have an idea for something and then it's very of the moment, that idea, and you want to be doing it in that moment because if you wait too long then the moment's gone, it's almost like

[01:04:45] Mm hmm.

[01:04:46] striking something while the iron's hot. You've kind of got to do it at that moment, that's the right moment for that show. So like if you do it again then it's more about, history, a restaging. The restaging is a restaging, I have done elements of restaging works before, but it's not the same as being there when you've just had that moment and there it is.

[01:05:09] At what point do you know that you belong in the art world and have you ever felt close to that?

[01:05:17] I definitely belong in the art world and I've never felt like I don't, honestly. But for people who might not have been in the art world, I have felt that. Like in the film world I felt that because I wasn't in there before. So I felt like I maybe was a bit of an outsider and then I was kind of making my way into the film world. So I understand what that feels like. And then you just realize, yeah, you know, everyone in the film might feel like they're in the film world and you're on the outside of it and it's all sort of a little bit illusionary.

[01:05:49] But if it's more about someone listening who might not feel like they're in the art world, you are in the art world. Claim your space because you're in it because you say you're in it. But having said that. Um, Need to put in the time, I think, as well. So it's an interesting question. It's a hard question to answer. For me, yes, I feel like I've never been out of the art world because art is my life. And I've done the hard yards, you know. I mean, I know people that I studied with who, a lot of them are still artists and some of them went off to do other things. It's not for everybody. it's not for everybody, but it's certainly um, for me.

[01:06:30] Yeah if time or money or geography, collaboration, whatever place, was not an issue, what would be a dream project for you to make?

[01:06:45] I'd love to do some works in the Australian desert. Maybe the edge of the Nullarbor, looking down into the ocean, where the cliff faces come down.

[01:06:55] Mm hmm.

[01:06:57] It's very hard to get an installation team out there.

[01:06:59] Or anyone.

[01:07:00] yeah. it's a really good question. Yeah, it would be also a building. A purpose building that I design, housing my installation work in some amazing natural environment. So a building that's built in the natural environment that is only purpose is... you can't sleep in there. You can only go through it. Experience the nature around you through it. I mean, it's interesting because nature is so perfect. So like, what would I be doing there? Creating some kind of apparatus for viewing. You know? hopefully getting even closer. Something interesting. Or maybe a city building, I'm not sure. But some purpose built building, permanent in a space and grows over time. I Do like the idea of underground stuff as well. Underground works. That's a good question. I've got lots of ideas I can say about that.

[01:07:59] love that idea of a purpose built building that's basically just your personal museum.

[01:08:07] Yeah. Yeah.

[01:08:08] That's cool.

[01:08:09] Yeah. We'll work on that.

[01:08:14] Tell us quickly about your encounter with the Queen of Holland.

[01:08:20] Oh, yeah. In 2007 there was an exhibition. It was called Den Haag Sculpture or The Haag Sculpture. And, um, I was invited as an artist in a group show with Dutch artists and Australian artists. It was a kind of a Dutch Australian artist exchange and my piece was in the Escher Museum. I did an installation in what's called the Zilverkammer, which is the old cutlery room of the palace. So, at the moment, the Esher Museum is in the old summer palace of the royal family. So they've taken it over as the museum. So it was their summer home, now it's the Esher Museum. And on the lower levels, uh, the Zilverkammer, the cutlery room was the space that I was able to make a work, an installation work inside there.

[01:09:13] And other people had, there's like this kind of avenue that heads towards the old palace. And on that avenue, it's now blocked off so that they had sculptures all through that area. So most people did outdoor sculptures. I Did the indoor one and I ended up winning the, it was a sculpture prize and I was a dual winner with a Dutch guy. So I won and he won. And so I got to meet the Queen of Holland and take her through the installation.

[01:09:41] And um, she I guess like royal fashion. She wore very, very colorful outfit. You know, like the Queen of England used to pop out in the crowd. She wore this amazing hat with this matching dress of all different colours. And, um, I got to guide her through the installation. And I sort of stood at the entrance because I wanted her to go in by herself, you know, to experience it and then come out the other end. Because it was one where you entered and then you sort of turned around and came back. But her ladies in waiting went in before her in case there was anything dangerous or I don't know exactly.

[01:10:15] And they kept telling her, spiegel, spiegel, meaning there's a mirror here. And then she told them off and said something along the lines of: I know shut up in Dutch, they came out and then she went through it on her own. And it was a really nice moment because she actually knew that room from when she was a little girl because it was their cutlery room and it was completely transformed in this installation. You wouldn't be able to recognize it. And it also made a very small room feel really large because of the periscope optics. I can make a small room that's only four metres by four metres, seem like it's 16 metres long, in a corridor kind of format. Anyway, she really engaged with it.

[01:10:56] And then in the building, there was a little lift and we shared that lift together, just the two of us and she told me that she was a sculptor as well. She obviously still sculpts, I'm sure. Um, She was a very lovely woman, so it was really nice to meet her and you know, it was kind of surreal to be up close and personal with a, a queen.

[01:11:17] An actual queen.

[01:11:18] She was actually the queen at the time, yeah.

[01:11:21] Yeah.

[01:11:22] So that was really lovely.

[01:11:24] Yeah, cool. What are you working on right now? Can you share?

[01:11:29] Um, Yeah, so I've almost just finished a piece for Monash University on the outside of building H in the main quadrangle at Caulfield campus. I've created a light clock, kind of a riff on the old um, town clock. But of course we don't need the town clock for us to tell the time anymore.

[01:11:48] So it's a sort of, it's called soft time and it's a clock that the second hands rotate just with light with a kind of a blue and a white semi circle rotating. And then on every hour a swish of light goes around and lets you know that the hour's just passed.

[01:12:04] so That's been a really exciting project to work on. Have another project coming up in the city I can't really talk about it just yet because it's not announced. But that's in Melbourne. And other than that, I'm doing my PhD in architecture, uh,

[01:12:21] Just that.

[01:12:21] just that, yeah. So Yeah, that's what I'm working on at the moment. But I'm also working on some smaller works that capture the mechanisms of my larger installations. I'm working on some smaller works so that I will let myself be collectible in some way. Because they are very it's difficult to capture the large works. I'm trying to work out how I can create an experiential sort of smaller work that's more intimate in scale.

[01:12:46] So, is that like uh, still a 3D work? Like a miniature of a space or something like that?

[01:12:52] They're a miniature of a space. they are Works in themselves, but they're just more intimate. So they have the same like little mechanisms, but just one or two people can be there. And it's about your not body scaled, but it's human scaled.

[01:13:05] Hmm, interesting.

[01:13:06] working on those. Yeah. But I'm excited about having those because um, I want people to be able to understand parts of the practice not in a large scale, but in a small scale form moving on to the future, something to leave behind.

[01:13:22] What about the bigger installations? What happens once the work is finished? Do you sell the work?

[01:13:30] they can be acquired by a museum, which has happened a couple of times, but not very often. Mostly, they come down and everything's recycled. Because they act more like stage sets, as in the play's over. So the play,

[01:13:45] Mm

[01:13:46] when the play's on, you are the players. And then the play's over, it's gone. Which is like, you know, it doesn't make a lot of sense economically, doesn't make a lot of sense in all those other ways. But that doesn't matter to me because the practice that I want to explore is very experience based and, and it's also body scaled. So because of those two aspects, there's not many opportunities, which is obviously why I want to build the building, eventually.

[01:14:12] But say, for example, one piece I did at Governor's Island in New York, with a group called No Longer Empty,

[01:14:17] I did an installation in one of the old... it's called Governor's Row, and there's a little house. It Was occupied by one of the workers for the governor at that island. And you go on a little ferry from Manhattan to Governor's Island in the summer and have these art projects. And that particular project was made of lots of different panels and created a kind of a visual conundrum where the windows, you couldn't tell where the windows were directionally in the space.

[01:14:43] So I played with the fenestration and redirected all the windows. So you weren't quite sure which way was which and riffed off the actual old windows in the building. But The walls for that, the group that was building it for me said, because of the particular panel sizes they were, they said is it okay if we reuse these for a dinner party charity event. And I said sure. And it was for, Sean Penn was raising money for something.

[01:15:10] And they gave them to him and they built the dinner table out of the panels of the installation. And I said: do I get a free ticket? And they said, no. Can you believe that? I want a ticket to the dinner party. I just gave the table! Anyway. I thought of it too late. I think it didn't, didn't connect, but anyway.

[01:15:29] So yeah, I try to recycle, everything gets recycled and reused and so on. And a couple of them are stored. Like Axis, the piece that I just did in the um, big strange engine that's being stored at the moment. So that's re doable somewhere. If you've got more than five, the whole structure's five metres by ten metres.

[01:15:49] So there's a few possibilities floating around for where that might go next.

[01:15:54] And how do, how do projects like that, like the Governor's Island one, get funded?

[01:15:59] Well that was through a group called No Longer Empty. So what they would do is they were funded by philanthropic groups in New York. And the spaces that they were offering were spaces that were not occupied and they called it No Longer Empty. So they would take over abandoned office buildings, they would take over other spaces that weren't being used by museums and so on. So that was funded by the group No Longer Empty.

[01:16:25] Mm hmm.

[01:16:26] It was a temporary one as well.

[01:16:28] Cool. Well, tell me, where can people see your work or find out more about your work? Maybe follow you?

[01:16:38] Yeah, so I think following me is the best which is @NatashaJohnsMessenger. Just the full name. I Also have a website, NatashaJohnsMessenger. com. You can also DM me if you want to be on the mailing list. Because I use an old fashioned mailing list for updating and invitations for different events. I do talks often. I do other things besides just making the work. But then I, like to invite people to see certain things. So when I have things on, at the moment, it's mostly been public art, which doesn't often have openings or so on. So following me on social media will let you know when those things are unveiled and ready to go and see.

[01:17:21] As I said, they don't always have events attached. Just depends on the organization and the work. But yeah, I am active every day, making moves to make works. So there'll be things coming out the other end soon.

[01:17:34] What about some public work that people can go out and see right now? Is there something else out

[01:17:40] Right now, yeah, so if you're in New York, there's the Alterview, which is at Hunter's Point at the High School 404. You can, like, look up to the terrace. I know they do do tours, they let people go in and experience it sometimes. In Melbourne there's a piece at Ruffey Lake Park, recently erected. There is a piece called Ellipse Circle View. I'm just about to start posting about that online because we've just done the photography for that, so that's quite new.

[01:18:08] We've got Building H at Monash University in the Caulfield Campus. Another piece called Water Orb, which is at Clayton campus, you can go and see that. That's just about to be painted, I hope. I'm going to work on that for next year because that was initially going to be not, not a permanent work, but yeah, but still it's been recently cleaned up and that looks good. Yeah, so other ones, you can have a look on my website and see, but they're the ones that are actually out and about at the moment and

[01:18:37] yeah, so you can see those.

[01:18:39] Of course on the freeway, I have a piece on Cranbourne Road called Compass, which is at the Cranbourne Road and Peninsula Link. You can drive past it and then that will be going to  McClelland Sculpture Park and be a permanent part of their collection out there so you can go and have a look there.

[01:18:58] Yeah, so a lot of public works at the moment. But yeah, if you follow me on social media and, or DM me to get on the emailing list then all other exhibitions will be communicated that way.

[01:19:10] Great! We'll put that info in the show notes so people can easily go and follow you. Well, I think that's it for me. Thank you, Natasha, for coming on and talking. It's been very interesting.

[01:19:24] Thanks, Anastasia. It's been nice to chat about so many different aspects and this is definitely a nice long form conversation and get a bit deeper.

[01:19:34] Yeah, I mean, I feel like there are still more questions, but we have to keep it to a certain format.

[01:19:42] Yeah. Thank you very much for the invitation to chat and really appreciate it.

[01:20:19] That was Natasha Johns Messenger, based in Melbourne. You can find out more about her work on her website, natashajohnsmessenger. com and follow her on Instagram at Natasha Johns Messenger. Also make sure to DM her to get on her mailing list.

And if you're in New York City, you can see her work, Alterview, in person at High School 404 at Hunters Point, Tours organized through Percent for Art. Or if you're around Melbourne, you can spot her public artworks at Ruffey Lake Park, at Monash University, and on the M11 Peninsula Link at Cranbourne Road..

Links to her website as well as everyone mentioned in this episode will be in the show notes and on our website, installation art podcast.com.

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