[00:00:00] Hey, guy Powell here and welcome to the next episode of the Backstory on the Shroud of Turin. If you haven't already done so, please sign up for many other of these, uh, episodes and podcasts and posts on guy powell.com. As you know, I am the author of the book, the Only Witness, which is a Christian historical fiction tracing a possible history of the Shroud of Turrin over the last two millennia.

What'll be fun about today's talk is we're gonna talk about those, uh, 2000 years and, uh, see how things, uh, and how impressions have changed. And Bob has got some interesting ideas on things and I've got some others that I've done some research on, and we'll see what happens. So today we're talking with, uh, Bob Bird and he is a, uh.

Outside of his other [00:01:00] activities is his, uh, longtime researcher and speaker on the Shroud and a radio talk show host. And before we get started, let me tell you a little bit about him. So he is a conservative Alaskan educator, broadcaster, and political activist with a deep interest in faith and history, a longtime advocate of constitutional principles.

He has also promoted the shroud of Turin as a powerful witness to Christ's passion, and it blends his teaching with reflections on history, evidence, and belief. He has, uh, hosted an afternoon talk show, and it used to be called The Bird's Eye View, but it's now titled The Talk of Kenai. And that's on KSRM Radio nine 20, and also online@radiokenai.com.

Uh, Bob, welcome. It's so good to have you. And it was great to have you on my show last week. Uh, and, uh, [00:02:00] thanks for, uh, I'm very happy to, uh, return the favor. Yeah, absolutely. It's, uh, wonderful to have you. I've really enjoyed our conversation and um, and everything that, uh, we ended up talking about. And of course the shroud is my passion.

It sounds like it's one of your passions. And, and how could we go wrong about talking about the shroud? So first of all, let's, uh, let's find out, uh, what is your backstory on the shroud of Turrin? How did you get interested in it and, and, uh, why it's, uh, you know, so interesting for you? Well, I grew up in northern Illinois and, um, my dad got me and our family out of the heavy suburbs of Chicago.

He was, uh, a farm equipment exec executive, and, uh, he moved us 70 miles out of Chicago so that he could commute every morning downtown. Uh, but we were living in corn belt country and therefore we had a, um, [00:03:00] a Catholic church that was still, uh, it was a basement church at the time in the mid fifties. And I attended a shroud lecture.

I, I could not have been more than seven years old. I may have been six, I might even have been five. I do remember this, that before they began the slide presentation, they took the blessed sacrament out, but took it very seriously. Not even a, a lecture on the shroud was going to have be done in the presence of, of the blessed sacrament.

So, and I remember even at that age. Thinking, holy cow, this is, hey, this is a big deal. But in the years that followed, WGN Every Good Friday had, uh, father Francis Philis on for, uh, probably a 30 minute, uh, talk, and we never missed it. Okay. It was one of the things, part of our Good Friday devotions to wa make sure we watch that.

And I don't know if there's any [00:04:00] archives on it, but, um, uh, but WGN carried it and, uh, so that increased it. Then when I got into somewhere in high school, I read, uh, the, um. A doctor at Calvary by Pierre Barbay, which still looks pretty good. I mean, it's not a dated book at all. And then here's what I was, uh, moved to Alaska in 1977 and I was, uh, teaching in the Ellucian Islands at the time that, uh, the Shroud Stir was starting to be organized.

And I got pretty excited about that. And then I got even more excited when its conclusions were published. And then when 1988 came and the Carbon 14 dating came, I I was very troubled, uh, over the fact that it took a lot longer for them to, uh, announce their findings than they expected. And then [00:05:00] when they made that infamous press conference, I have to tell you, I had only one reaction.

It was this, this doesn't make sense. And I knew it, it was flawed because you can't take all of the findings at the Space Age, new completely neutral scientists found in 1978 and cancel it out with Carbon 14 dating. But the next 20 years we saw all these different, uh, theories floated about, you know, from, uh, bioplastic coating to, uh, contamination from the fire of 1532 or contamination by being held by many hands, uh, of bishops and outdoor expositions and so forth.

And it wasn't until thanks to four people, Joe Marino, Sue Benford, Barry Schwartz and Ray Rogers made that discovery. And you'll notice their press conference. I, [00:06:00] I use it in my slide presentation. It didn't have the same gravitas that the, um, the Carbon 14 19 88 press conference had with that horrible shark, 1390 to 1260.

I mean, you know that that was a photo op that will last for ages no matter what authenticity the is gonna enjoy. Lemme interrupt you. Uh, what Barry Schwartz, uh, calls that picture is the three stooges. You know, there's, there we still can't agree on exactly how much culpability they have. I, I've read enough serious, uh, opinions that well.

The Carbon 14 dating was spot on because it had mixed results with the mixture of the French reweaving cotton that was put in there. So you can't blame them for that, but we can blame them for not following their own protocols, [00:07:00] which were violated three different locations, which they didn't do, and, and that they weren't going to share their findings, uh, until, until they were ready to, uh, conclusively make an independent.

What non influenced, uh, conclusion? The one thing I'm gonna excuse them for, and I don't know who's responsible for this, it may have been, uh. Uh, uh, the Swiss textile expert, they probably reached for only one location because they didn't wanna damage the shroud anymore. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I wonder if, you know, that's praiseworthy and the, the two rectangular locations.

I don't know if you've noticed this, the bigger one on the, what I call the far right, because I usually orient, uh, or that's the way I usually orient it. Mm-hmm. So, at the top right, the top right, it's almost a perfect rectangle. And I saw that as a place where snipping [00:08:00] had gone on for the sake of sharing LICs.

But others have a different opinion. But you'll notice that the, the place where they took the sample is not a perfect, it's not a perfect, uh, rectangle, which, and it tapers off, which indicates that it was repaired. Uh, and for some reason maybe it was fraying badly there and, uh, and they figured, well, it's just gonna keep unraveling unless we do something.

So, um, I, I think that might be the real cause behind the French reweaving repair, but we'll never know for sure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's a reasonable, um, conclusion. Um, and I think you're right. The, uh, you know, the other, uh, the other section that was cut was probably cut for the Dukes and the Kings of Italy to provide and, and upgrade the different copies that were made [00:09:00] for the other kings around the world.

And that wanted a copy of it so that they could say, Hey, we've got a piece of the shroud and here's approximately what it looks like. Yeah, yeah. That, that could well be. Of course. You know, the other alternative theory is that that strip was. Cut or horn by Joseph Nicodemus and used it to cinch down the shroud, uh, you know, at the neck, ankles, waist, and so forth.

And that the, they also used it for a chin bandage. And the reason why those segments are missing, so this theory goes I is because when they undid the chin bandage, somehow it got lost, uh, yes. In the transfer of the body. And, uh, so that was not possible to reattach it. I'd be real, nobody's done any speculation that I've been able to find as to when it was reattached.

I don't even know if they've looked at the, the [00:10:00] stitching to see if it matches, uh, stitching techniques from the medieval era or from the, um, from ancient, uh, times. Yeah, they, yeah, it would be, but. It is, it is important to note, I do believe that in the Gospel of John, it depends on translations. Okay. But it talks about, doesn't, doesn't it mention winding sheet at one point in some of the translations.

And so that would explain that because a lot of skeptics say, well, you see Jesus was wound up like an Egyptian mummy. Well, no. And um, so I really like the idea that they, it's John Jackson's speculation as far as I know, that it was torn to cinch down the shroud and perhaps in a continuous, a continuous line.

So, yeah. Well, and plus, uh, I don't, I don't know if you know this, but there's a, uh, there's another piece of cloth in a cathedral in Baruch and, um, Pam Moon, who's another big researcher, uh, her opinion is, is that that piece [00:11:00] was used to tie the thumbs. Underneath so that it would keep the arms from falling off to the side, uh, in rigor mortis in, well in and out of rigor mortis there that would, that kept them in that pose.

And so that may have been one of the pieces as well, that was part of the strips of the linens lying there that, uh, John and Peter write about in their gospels. It's great because the mysteries are endless and it just, it just keeps us going deeper and deeper to try to solve 'em out, you know? Yeah, absolutely.

You know, it's funny, every once in a while I'll get a paper or an email that says, and here are all of the un, here are what we believe are the incontrovertible facts of the shroud. And I think the first one, you know, is like, um, is like, well, the cloth is made of linen. That's really the only thing that you could probably say is uncontroversial.

So, uh, but anyway, let's talk about the, [00:12:00] the timeline and in particular, uh, kind of the hidden years, which almost to some extent, they start right after 33 ad, if that's what you believe is the date of resurrection two, all the way up to 1355 with the e expositions or the, uh, os tensions as they were called in, in Leray in France.

And, uh, so let's talk about that. And I know we're gonna stop off at probably, uh, the first one right away, which is did the shroud get to Odessa? And I know we both have different opinions there, so very interested in, uh, in going from there. So let's, uh, let's go, let's start. Well, I go with Larry Staley, and that is the shroud for the Gentiles at least, was used as an evangel, an evangelizing.

And that's, to me, it's laughably obvious in Galatians chapter three, verse one. And it, it's, I'm very interested in the various pub [00:13:00] uh, translations. I see. Because, uh, some of them say you who saw Jesus clearly portrayed as crucified, and some of them say publicly portrayed as crucified. I'm not a scholar in Greek or, or Hebrew.

So I, I don't know how it could possibly, apparently there's a word there that could be used from various, various angles. But the important thing is to note this, Christianity was not illegal when, if, and when Paul took it to the Galatian, but it was when John wrote his gospel. So he would've been a little bit more re reticent about describing the shroud in John 20.

He would not have said. We saw the image of Jesus miraculously portrayed on the squat. You see, he wouldn't have done that because there would've been an a PB for the [00:14:00] Romans, uh, to find it. And so he just put down, he saw and he believed. And, uh, I've seen some footnotes in Catholic, Catholic, uh, Bibles that say there was something on the cloth that caused them to believe.

I've actually seen that in one of, one of the footnotes. So. Um, I would say that it was probably used in more than one location. Uh, styley goes with a lot more hints about the shroud, uh, being presented. Uh, and I leave that up to him and he's gonna give the presentation, uh, at the conference, which, uh, I want the people who are watching this.

Yes, I'm going. And, uh, it's one of the rare times I won't get an award for having traveled the farthest distance from Alaska because there'll be people there from all over the world. So the, um, I think, I think we can safely say that the shroud and [00:15:00] some, I, I don't know if it's done by the pollen evidence, but some of 'em show it having been brought to Alexandria in Egypt or maybe even Antioch.

Uh, I don't know if you've got an opinion on that. And then, and, and I think. I want to get to Athens after the stack of Constantinople and the Laroche family too. But what do you think about the shrouds? Where's the evidence that it went to Egypt? Do you have any of that? Well, I, um, uh, I don't have any evidence, uh, one way or another.

The, the real question is whether the pollens were accurately mapped, uh, as to where they might have originated from the ones that were found on the, on the shroud itself. And there's a couple of papers that are out there. Certainly Max Fry is probably the most famous. And then there's another one by, uh, and AB and he's going, yeah.

And he's got a, uh, [00:16:00] an interesting paper where he's mapped out five kilometer square parts of Israel and then, uh, looked at what kind of pollens and plants and what have you. Were there. And so, uh, uh, that one's kind of interesting. The challenge with the pollens, of course is, you know, the, is it possible that there were some plants that maybe went a little bit further?

'cause Alexandria isn't that far away from Palestine, you know, the, the, the former Palestine. And, um, uh, so are all of those potentially the same or not? It's, uh, I'd like to, you know, hear more about Avan Noum and understand a little bit about that. It would be interesting if you could somehow age genetically the, uh, the pollen, DNA, and see if it had.

Evolved over the last 2000 years. And then you could say, well, maybe there's something in there like that. But, uh, alright, well let's talk about, so what happened? Uh, so if Paul, uh, [00:17:00] somehow showed the shroud in, uh, in Galacia. Um, when one of the, one of the theories is that Peter had it, uh, you know, in Jerusalem certainly, and then maybe up to Antioch is kind of a little bit, little less certain.

Maybe he went back and forth between, well, he did go back and forth between Antioch and Jerusalem, and maybe he brought the shroud with him each time. And maybe at one time, you know, he gave it to Paul and Paul showed it to the Galatians or, uh, in the order for him to have written about it or something like that.

Or Thaddeus, Jude took it to Odessa. Yeah. So, um, but if Thaddeus, uh, Jude, uh, took it to Odessa, um, when do you think he took it to Odessa? Uh, and, um, and, uh, how does that then jive with the timing of Paul having written about it, uh, in his, uh, book of the Galatians? I don't [00:18:00] know enough about biblical scholarship to give you timelines.

The earliest, um, the earliest gospel was written by Matthew and they basically figure, what, 15 years? Yeah. Yeah. And I go, and not everyone agrees with this either that Christ, uh, Christ re a passion was in 30 ad I go with that April 7th, 30 ad others say 33 ad and that you'll have to talk to Dr. Baltz about.

So the, um, the, the thing that I, I've kind of mishmashed in my own head is that the shroud was carefully used by all of the original 72 disciples. Paul would have it, Peter would have it, maybe Thaddeus Jude would have it. And. You know, when I look at the, uh, artwork that some of it's very recent, I love looking at it.

Um, [00:19:00] and I'm glad there are people who are skilled trying to make sense out of it. One of the most beautiful ones shows a Thaddeus Jude holding, uh, almost a transparent cloth that's shimmering and agars looking at it. Another one is very primitive. I don't know when it was done. It was probably on the walls somewhere in the five or six hundreds where they show again, just the portrait of the face to agar and, but.

I think Ian Wilson probably, uh, said that they had folded it, doubled it in four so that just the face was visible, which of course, lent cre, uh, created. Then the Veronica Legend, but then again, Paul bad, or Baddy, I don't know how he pronounces his last name, that great German Catholic journalist, uh, has his own theories about the Manoppello cloth and all that sort of stuff.

Every one of them is worthy of discussion. And, uh, [00:20:00] it's maybe, you know, we'll have a, uh, a, a campfire circle at the, at the, uh, at the, uh, international Shroud Symposium, and everybody's going to get their points in at a place where we're all able to interact with each other. I, I don't know, so I can't give you a timeline, but I've seen, I think it's reasonable to assume if Christ exchanged letters with abdo, and that's plausible.

Okay. Or he may have, uh, simply sent word back. Uh, but Thaddeus Jude wouldn't have wasted much time because if you're gonna cure somebody of leprosy, you better get moving. And, uh, if Peter, uh, saw something on the shot, as did John, they might have said the Thaddeus, Judas considered to be a cousin of Jesus, I believe.

Uh, Thaddeus, get up there to King Agar right away. And then come back with the shroud. That's what I play around with my own [00:21:00] mind. Yeah. And then, and yeah. Yeah. Well, lemme uh, lemme just back up a second. And, uh, for the audience, uh, there's a thing called the, uh, what's, what's kind of commonly talked about, which is like the legend of the image of Odessa and legend kind of means that it's a story.

Uh, sometimes and many, most of the time legends are based on facts. So, uh, it could be factual, it might not be factual. And, uh, the legend, uh, as I'm gonna use that term, uh, is that, um. That Thaddeus at Thomas' bidding. So the, one of the 12, whereas Thaddeus, drew, Thaddeus was probably one of the 72, uh, where Thomas was kind of given the, um, given the mandate to go off and evangelize and Mesopotamia and uh, and Northern Syria and some of Persia and some of that area there.

And, uh, Odessa, which is what we're talking about, is in the [00:22:00] middle of that area. It's actually very close to Harran where Lot was, where Isaac met Rebecca. And there's a whole bunch of other, uh, old Testament activities that took place very close to Odessa. And, um, and so the legend goes that, uh, this King Apgar.

While Jesus was alive, sent a letter to Jesus and it was transmitted, uh, by an individual, most likely someone in his court, most likely by, uh, and all of the writings are by this gentleman, Hannon. And so he reads the letter to Jesus. Jesus then responds to that letter and says, I'm sorry, I can't come to you, but after my mission is complete and after I die, I will send someone to you to cure you.

And so then Hannon takes this message back, whether it was actually written by Jesus or whether it was transcribed by this gentleman, Hannon. Uh, [00:23:00] nobody knows. Uh, some people believe it's was a true writing of Jesus and o others kind of think otherwise. And so that's kind of what we're talking about. And then the next piece of it is, uh, did Thaddeus.

Take an image with him of Jesus, which was part of, uh, one of the requests, uh, by Apco to Hannon. Did he take an image with him of Jesus? Uh, was it painted? Was it the shroud? Was it another sweat cloth? Uh, or something else. And so that's kind where all the controversy comes from. So, uh, so that's the background here of what's going on.

If, if Paul Batty is correct, that there was a basis cloth with Jesus' image on it, he might've just used that, it would've been a lot, a lot easier to carry. But then how did the a shroud get to Odessa, which I want to hear why you don't think it did, despite the story [00:24:00] of the repair of the walls and the flood.

But, um, what we, the legend continues that after a agar converted to Christianity, obviously was baptized then. And he would be the first Christian King before Constantine by centuries. Okay. And, uh, but it, it might have been just skin deep. You, you know, and it's really tough to, um, shake centuries of paganism and the, um, the, uh, son of Agar, I think he's Agar the second, no, no, Manu, that's what his name.

Manu. Yeah. Manu. Yeah. Uh, he reverted to Paganism and the Christians were persecuted and the legend says they hid it. So, um, but the legend also says no one ever forgot about it. So tell me, uh, what you think happened with, with the Shroud and why it didn't go to Odessa. I'm, I'm [00:25:00] just intrigued about this.

Yeah. Well, I don't know where it went. Um, I think it, uh, Mar for Jack Marquardt writes that it, um, uh, was in, in Antioch. And, um, uh, and what's interesting is that there are several contradictory writings. And as I said on your show, there's absolutely nothing contradictory and controversial with the shroud.

It's everything is contradictory and, and, and, uh, and controversial. So, uh, there are, and this is one of the papers that I'll be, uh, presenting at the Shroud conference coming up in St. Louis, which, by the way, you can find out more information at Shroud 2025 conference.com. And, uh, so there's a, uh, a writer, uh, Lubna, uh, he was part of one of the, uh, of Apgars Courts.

He wrote about the, uh, this whole thing, and he only writes about the letter. He does not mention an image, which is pretty critical. [00:26:00] Now, fast forward another a hundred or so years to a guy named Barus. He talks, he writes about the hymn of the Pearl, the hymn of the Pearl. Now Bar Desus was also most likely in, uh, Apgar, the eighth Court.

So three Apgars later after Apgar the Fifth is the one we're talking about. And he writes about a, an image that's my full size and looks like a reflection of me. That's the hymn of the Pearl. And that's was roughly 1 95 ad. Um, and then there's, um, there's another writer, um, that slips my mind at the moment.

But then the, the most important one, there's probably the most important one, is then, uh, Eusebius of cea. He was the bishop of Cesarea and he wrote what's called the ecclesiastical history. And in there he does not mention the image. He only mentions the letter, and he was generally thought of as being a, [00:27:00] uh, a pretty, uh, pretty good writer and pretty accurate writer writing his history.

Is this, there's a lot of, there's a lot of uss Is this the one that was in the, uh, late Roman Empire or even, even um, well, it would've been in the three hundreds, so it would've been three hundreds. Okay. Yeah. Can't after Constantine's conversion? I think it was after Constantine. Uh, but it might have been, uh, anyway, it was, it was, uh, definitely after Constantine, as I recall.

Um, and actually I'll add that fact to my writing here, but the, the interesting part about it is, so Barus in 1 95 mentions an image, the shroud image. So how did he see that? Um, given that it may, the shroud may have been in, uh, in Antioch, or may have been in Odessa. So if it was an Odessa, then he saw it, it was right there.

He saw it, it was in the archives. So, um, uh, so a, a lot of controversy now. Mark VT thinks that, uh, the shroud was brought by Bishop a, a EU or [00:28:00] Aerius out of Opolis to the, um, to the, uh, the, the con uh, the conversion of Apgar viii. And he wanted to then, because this was the first kingdom that was now gonna convert entirely, blah, blah, blah.

So that's, it's possible that it was brought there from Antioch, uh, to, uh, to this conversion. So, um, so that's where you can see that the controversy or the difference of opinion. And the good news is there is no a hundred percent accuracy. Nobody can say that this absolutely happened. I think I can, I think for me, absolutely Christ died.

He was resurrected. He is there for us, et cetera. But after that, it's really hard to, uh, to come up with something. Ha have, have you seen, I, I don't wanna call 'em cartoons, but it's written in Greek and it's commemorating general cor, I hope I pronounce that properly. The one who besieged ESSA [00:29:00] 9 44, and he's being presented the shroud with Cortier Cortier.

Uh, have you seen this one? That is the, uh, he's kissing the face. He's kissing the face of Jesus, which is. Portrayed as having actually been lifted out of, out of the cloth. You, you've seen that? Yeah. That's, uh, as an aside, that's uh, what's, uh, commonly known as the Skyes. Uh, there is a copy of these Skyes or Skyes in, in Madrid.

They were written about 10 90 or so, and, and they were illuminated, which means that there's images in there, which is what you're talking about. And, but that's, I am, and I am going to, during the conference, I'm gonna talk about exactly that image and you'll be, uh, very surprised as to what you see on there.

Okay. So anyway. Okay. Because it's definitely portrayed as a shroud that's folded up. Okay. Uh, but the, the [00:30:00] face of Jesus is being portrayed as having been lifted out of it. And so the, you, you know what the general is kissing, and I'd say after a year's siege and all the things that a siege of a city entails, there's a great, after the negotiations are finally completed and Odessa's never again going to be attacked.

Uh, they're happy on the inside and they're happy on the outside, and we, we know it was a great parade when they brought it back. So that, that's a shroud they're holding. Not, not a, a Mandel, not a towel. So I'll wait for your explanation, maybe in St. Louis. Well, and I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna give it away, but, uh, okay.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna totally disagree with that. Alright. But let's go on to another topic. Um, and that is, uh, uh. In, in 9 44, which is when, uh, Corco, uh, general Corco, he basically [00:31:00] invaded and, and, uh, was outside the walls of Odessa. And, uh, he was more or less negotiating, uh, to get the image what is, what was then known as the image of Odessa.

Uh, and get possession of it and take it back to Constantinople and, uh, for Romanis, uh, Le Leus. And, um, uh, and he was able to do that. He gave, he traded, uh, he traded, uh, prisoners, Muslim prisoners. It was Muslim at the time, and he traded gold and silver and other, you know, valuables for this, uh, this, this, this cloth.

He takes it back. It comes back to, uh, to, to Constantinople. And there's two writers that are really critical to this period. One of them is, um, is, uh, Constantine. He's, uh, Constantine II, I think. And, uh, the other one is, uh, what's called Gregory Referend. Darius. And, uh, Gregory Referend. Darius gives a sermon and, [00:32:00] uh, the, and he gives it on the, the, the day after the, the, the cloth, I'll call it just the cloth at the moment, the day after the cloth arrives in Constantinople.

He references, uh, the shroud with, or the cloth with blood from the side of Jesus. And then he references something with a face image on it. And so when he, uh, one of the things that he says is, and here is a cloth with the blood from Jesus on it, blood from the side, and there is a cloth with an image of the face on it.

So he speaks of two separate cloths. Well, and that right there is one of the other. Incredibly controversial, uh, um, mysteries, writings. So, you know, and, and so Bob, I'm, you know, and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but you know, many people take that as meaning The shroud and the image of [00:33:00] Odessa were one and the same.

And then, uh, the recent translation of that done by Mark Guston is that his opinion, and Otti as well. Uh, and Andrea Otti, who's a historian, he says, and the shroud over there and the, uh, image of Odessa over here. So he's kind of translating. I thought Guston was, uh, I thought Guston was the expert on the ada, but, um, and No, that's, yeah, he, that would be Caesar Bart.

Um, gusan wrote a, a book called The Legend of the Image of Odessa. And, uh, yeah. So anyway, that's, that's one of the writers and, uh, we, and we can argue about that forever, so we're not gonna do that. But the other writer that's also very interesting. At that time is, uh, Constantine ii, and he writes what's called the, uh, Nacio de Essana.

So the, the, uh, the history or the narration of Odessa. And he writes about the [00:34:00] cloth that was received. And, uh, he says that, and I res, and this is at exactly the same time, uh, as the, as the sermon from this Gregory Referend aria. And, uh, and he writes, I, we received a cloth that was nailed to a board and covered in gold and encrusted with jewels.

And if that's true, and who's to say which one is true or false? And if he was the emperor, then he, you know, maybe that's true. Or maybe he was trying to bias us whatever he was writing. If that's true, if it was folded up in, as you said in four and, and then doubled in two, and if it was nailed to a board such that only the face was showing, then one of the, one of the arguments back to you would be, where are the nail marks in the shroud cloth to replicate [00:35:00] that, that nailing of the cloth to the board?

Yeah, I've never heard of that, so I wouldn't be looking for nail marks, however. Go ahead, please. Well, I might explain, uh, the, the, the missing, uh, pieces from the strip, maybe that they were there. Yeah, that could be the two corners you said could be that they were cut off on the sides. An endless discussion.

And that is why it's so much fun to talk about the shroud because like I said, there's absolutely nothing controversial. It's, everything is controversial. Yeah. Right. And, and the thing to keep in mind is I know that amongst Shroud devotees, as Barry Schwartz told me, there are camps that are not talking to each other and I'm, that's not gonna happen to me.

I'm too open minded. And I've learned as an historian, I've got to rewrite. A lot of stuff, and I won't go into where in American [00:36:00] history or world history, but I know yeah, we, there's a parent history and then there's real history. And so if somebody comes up with something I've never heard of before, I'm not gonna say, get out, I've made up my mind.

No. I'm gonna simply say, okay, I'm listening. So, yep, absolutely. Well, you know, there's, there's, there's three kinds of histories or three kinds of truths. One of those is my truth. One of those is your truth and one of them is the truth. And sometimes all three agree. But, um, so yeah. So anyway, we're gonna have some fun in, uh, in, in St.

Louis, uh, for the audience. So we're gonna be together there. I'm gonna be presenting on this and so I've actually been spending the last year or so researching all of this, and that's why it, uh, it's very, you know, top of mind for me and that's why I love talking about it. Let's, let's go with the Knight's Templar thing.

Yeah. Because, um, I recently read, [00:37:00] I, I can't tell you, you know, why it took me this long to read it, but the, the Laroche family, which were in the Templars and they apparently had. At the height of their power Athens as a crusader state. And that, uh, they, they had the shroud making its way to western Europe with a stopover for some decades in Athens.

And one of the really wonderful, there's a, a stained glass window somewhere in France that shows the count of laroche holding the shroud. Have you seen that? I'm sure you have. That I have not seen. I will definitely look that one up. Thank you for that. Yeah. Yeah. I use it in one of, uh, my PowerPoint slides.

And so, uh, that indicates that the, uh, conjecture, that's what we'll call it, that, uh, there was a, that the shroud boy, I cringe when I think they took it on a ship. [00:38:00] Okay? It's gotta be vulnerable every step of the way. How often? Have people tried to destroy that shroud? I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make it. No one's ever said this and there's no evidence, but maybe the Shabo fire, it was done by who you gonna were?

Calvinists and Calvin had a low opinion of the shroud. He knew about it. And, uh, but we certainly know that there was a Molotov cocktail dropped on the shroud in 1972 and it just flamed out on the altar cloths. And then of course, the 1997 fire, which is certifiable as having been arson. Hmm. And, uh, I think that, I wish Mara Termor was at the conference.

There's that is such, I can goosebumps. It's good point. Every time I, I hear that story that I felt like I was carrying a baby boy on my shoulders and he, you know, [00:39:00] there were thousands of people waiting outside the. Behind the police lines, uh, behind the, uh, uh, the lines that were, uh, as the St. John the Baptist Cathedral was burning.

And when the shroud came out, I had the same relief when I, when, when the Notre Dame Cathedral burned that they'd taken, they'd saved the crown of thorns. Boy, oh boy. Yeah. What a thing that Tremory did, huh? Yeah. You weren't kidding. I write about that in my book. That's one of my, so in my book I have 13 short stories and one of those is about tremory, and one of those as well is about Han de la Roche.

Uh, but let me back up for the audience. And, uh, so the history. A history, which is, uh, more important. So in 1204 was what's called the, uh, the fourth crusade. And, uh, there was a lot of controversy going on between the emperor at the time, one of the Alexia, and paying off the crusaders to go down to Jerusalem [00:40:00] and free Jerusalem.

And finally the crusaders basically invaded, um, uh, Constantinople and stole or. Took possession of some people might say, but stole, uh, many artifacts and relics. And one of those is most likely, uh, was the shroud as at least one of the histories could be. And that history is that Ahan de Laroche, who was one of the top leaders in the Crusades, he then took it to Athens.

And as part of the, uh, as part of the, the settlement of the, of cons of the, of the, of the, uh, the battle or the, the fourth crusade was that Athens would now be owned, so to speak, by the Latins, so that Europe, the, the Catholic, uh, Athens, the Catholic Europeans. And so Ahan de La Roche was made the Duke of Athens.

And uh, so one story is that he's the one that took. The shroud from, uh, Constantinople [00:41:00] over to Athens. And that's what we're, that's what we're talking about. And one of his, uh, later progeny is, um, uh, is, uh, Marguerite deShar, and then there's, uh, Jeffrey deShar. And, uh, and it's most likely the case that Jeffrey deShar was either gifted it or gifted it to this church in Leray, France.

And, uh, and we'll talk about that as well. But in any case, that's where kind of this, this story of ton de Laroche comes into the, into the, into the history. It also brings us history to, we've also skipped over late in the Stroud's history in Constantinople when the Hungarian pre manuscript, the oldest known artifact, uh, written in the Hungarian language.

P so I'm told, so it rates up there with Dante, who, uh, wrote in Italian and not in Latin. And I'm trying to think who else. Uh, Luther's, uh, translation of the Bible and into [00:42:00] German, I think was also considered one of the very first German, German language, uh, writings. Yeah. Yeah. So, so the Hungarian pre manuscript shows to, it's unquestionably the shroud because the L holes are there.

And when we talk about fires in the shroud, nobody knows when or how those L holes were came on the shroud, but they were certainly there in 1193 and they were certainly there in the early 15 hundreds. When some of the copies of the show clearly show the EL holes, I go. I go with the dripping torch theory because there's too many little residual burn marks around those two very delineated L holes.

And, uh, we have no idea when the shroud was taken out of, let's say a, a very dark crypt and they needed to have [00:43:00] torches, and, uh, somebody had the tar, uh, burned through it and they, by the time they withdrew the torch, uh, those, it was in the configuration of an LI. It's been speculated that they were. Trial by ordeal.

Can you imagine any Christian wanting to put poker holes through the shroud? No, I can't do that. No. And it's possible it was a thorough and somebody got careless with the coals. Mm-hmm. So, uh, I'd like to hear your thoughts, but there's nobody that's got, I think the earliest, uh, recognition of the L holds is the pre manuscript.

Yeah. There's no reference anywhere earlier than that. Is there? No, that's right. And so the, uh, the L holes are four holes that were clearly burned into, uh, multiple, uh, folds of the shrouds. So the shrouds folded up and there's four holes in the shape of an l. And, uh, [00:44:00] the Pray manuscript, which, uh, Bob is talking about was written by, uh, well by Pray is the name.

It's Hung, the guy, his name is Pray. It's not a prayer manuscript, it's a pray manuscript. And he is, it's an illuminated manuscript and again, it means it has a picture in it and the picture shows Jesus Christ and it shows him with his hands crossed and a couple of other things that were recognizable from the shroud.

And then it also shows then the a, what could be interpreted as a herringbone weave. So the linen is a three over one herringbone weave and it, and this, one of the images has that. And then lastly, that image has blood on it or what appears to be, uh, you know, painted blood or you know, whatever. Uh, and then it has these l holes in it, and that's dated to roughly 1197, as I recall.

Uh, definitely the 1190. So sometime, uh, as a, as a relatively good [00:45:00] proof that the, uh, that the shroud existed, uh, you know, even before the fourth, uh, the fourth crusade. Right? And then that gives us, um, what the question if, if what they stole. They didn't steal it. It was a, it was an honest military campaign.

It was conquest. Okay. Unlike what the temples did, I, I don't think you can call that an honest conquest 'cause they were all excommunicated. And by the way, I wanna add this caveat that Venice, I think is part, uh, owns part of the culpability 'cause the crusaders. Knew that the Venetians had the finest Navy and they wanted to get to the Holy Land, but they didn't have the money.

And so basically Venice said, and correct me if I'm wrong, um, Constantinople is in debt to us, help us collect the debt and then we get you to the Holy Land. When it [00:46:00] didn't work out that way. Yeah, it's exactly, there was a lot of money going on. And, and it was, it was Venice, uh, that had the shipping 'cause that was a, a, a big C center of trade and had a Navy and was able to transport people and what have you, uh, from Europe.

Then be brought down to, uh, they were gonna stop off outside of Constantinople and then they were gonna move on down to Jerusalem and as part of the fourth crusade. And so, uh, but one of the things though that's interesting to bring up is, and one of the challenges is that after 1204, the Pope, and I can't remember which one it is, um, onus possibly.

Uh, he basically gave an edict. He says, anyone that has a relic from Constantinople, it will be excommunicated. So if Hondu Roche had the shroud, uh, then he could be potentially excommunicated and, [00:47:00] and excommunication is, is a disaster for any of anyone at that time, because Catholicism in the, in the west was just, you know, if you weren't, if you weren't communicated, then you were, you were, you know, persona non grata.

So he had to keep it secret. And that's one of the challenges for us as historians is that the proof then is not there directly because of these, uh, this edict from, uh, the Pope at the time. Right. By the way, I've given this talk to three times to an Orthodox. Um, uh. Audience and, uh, they have replicas of the Shah that they take out every, what they call Great Friday, not Good Friday.

And because the memory of it being part of, uh, Eastern Christianity's, uh, possession has not been forgotten. And, uh, I have to make certain admissions, yes, the crusader stole it, they're to blame, [00:48:00] but you know, God makes good come out of. Evil and, uh, we can only imagine what were, where the shroud would be.

Had it still been in Constantinople when it fell to the Turks in 1453 because they, they weren't taking any prisoners. Yeah. And they, uh, you know, would destroy, uh, potentially. Now, that's one of the things as well with Odessa, our conversation in the six forties, I think it was the Muslims, uh, conquered Persia and then, uh, and, and Odessa was part of Persia, so they conquered Odessa, and yet the, uh, image of Odessa was in Odessa at that time.

So now the Muslims have possession of this, uh, this important relic. One thing that's kind of interesting that, uh, not sure you're aware of, we, I wrote to. I don't know. It was on one of the email train chains that I'm on or whatever, and we were, uh, writing to, um, to an orthodox, [00:49:00] one of the orthodox, uh, groups, and I can't remember which one it was.

And they basically about the shroud of Turin and they basically said, ah, the shroud, that's a Catholic thing. We're not interested. And our interest is in the image of essa and we venerate the image of Odessa. And so it's kind of even after the great schism between the east and the west, that they have their cloth, so to speak, the image of Edessa.

And we have ours, so to speak, which is the, the, uh, the Catholic, uh, and the, and the shroud of tur. Well, where is it then? Uh, where is the, uh, the image of Odessa today? Uh, if, if that, if they think that they're two different, uh, two different artifacts, where is it? Well, uh, my, uh, my study, uh, is that, uh, the image of Odessa went from Odessa in 9 44, uh, to what we talked about with Constantine Thei and Gregory Referend.

Darius. It stayed there. It was hidden away because [00:50:00] people were afraid of it because there was, uh, miraculous, uh, things going on with it or believed to have been. And, uh, uh, and then in 1204, the fourth crusade had survived the fourth crusade. And then in 1207 to 1237, I think it was 1235 maybe, uh, Baldwin ii, who was now the, the new Emperor, emperor of the Latin Constant.

Noble. So the Europeanized, the Constantinople, because of the fourth crusade, he had no money. He needed money. So he sold, uh, 21 Relics to King Lewis the ninth, I believe it was in Paris. St. Louis, St. Louis. And so then those relics then were now transported to, uh, uh, to, uh, Paris. And he set, and King Lewis then built the, uh, the San Chappelle Cathedral, and he had the ground Shah built.

And it was all of these relics were stored in [00:51:00] there. And one of the items in the, uh, in the transport and in all of the later in inventories that were done, references an item called the Mendelian. And so if the Mendelian was in constant NOL and survived the, uh, the, the, the, uh, the fourth crusade, then it was then most likely sold to the French.

During that time, and then it was clearly inventoried over 200 years. No, 1300. 1200. 1300. So that's 700 years. I'm not even getting the math right. Till 1793. And guess what happened in 1793 in France? Yeah. We all know that they destroyed a lot of relics and the, the, all of those relics were stolen, melted down, or destroyed.

And so the Mendelian, what's now called the Mendelian, formally known as the image of Odessa, uh, [00:52:00] was disappeared and most likely destroyed during that, uh, during the French Revolution. And so it's gone. It's gone. There's unfortunately leads, that version of it. This leads, this leads me to the man of P Cloth because in 1404.

There was a beautiful painting, uh, that shows a medieval woman. She's in medieval gar, but she's supposed to be Veronica. And so it's one of those, one of those paintings where the, the artist is not attempting to show Veronica. She would've looked on the streets of Jerusalem. She's showing her like, like she was, you know, from the time of Joan of a, it was 1404, but it shows totally transparent cloth, which is exactly what we've got in Manela.

But Barry Schwartz, I was always troubled about the man of cloth, and I, and I, I was enthused at the same time. I said, I don't like the way the lips and the teeth are. [00:53:00] I don't like that. It looks like a rather amateurish, uh, job there. And then Barry said, well, Bob, look at the eyebrows. They're combed in reverse.

And not that they were combed, they were growing in reverse. It's impossible to have eyebrows, you know, uh, sliding the wrong way. And that's exactly, I was right. Inches from it. You've been there, I guess. I don't know if you were looking for it. No, I haven't seen it yet. But you don't, you don't need to go to Ello because you can get any camera right up next to it and, and take a very good detailed picture right through the Bulletproof GR glass.

So my, but Paul Badie, and I hope, again, with apologies to him, I don't know the German pronunciation, B-A-D-D-E, if it's just bad or bad or bad. I'm not, I don't know. He's a very good Catholic journalist. He theorized that this bias cloth was [00:54:00] laid over the face of Jesus above the shroud, and that he passed through it with his eyes open That.

It could be referenced in John 20. It could be the whole story of, uh, Thaddeus, Jude, and, uh, king Agar. It could be then the Holy Mandel, Leon. But what we're looking at in Manela is a copy. A very good copy. And it's not a copy. This is my theory, it's not a copy that was probably done to try to fool people.

It was one of my, because I think most of, like, you look at the shroud copies, don't ever tell me somebody was trying to pass that off as the real burial cloth. Even the greatest, uh, artists in the world can't do it. So, um, Albert Dur, his version of it is, is lousy. So, um, I think most of these copies were done [00:55:00] because most people aren't gonna be able to ever see it.

I wanna see pretty much what it looks like. And, um, that's the story with the, um, the copy in New Jersey, which itself is a second class relic and it's quite miraculous mm-hmm. With the, the blood stain there. So I think what we're looking at in Manela is, um. A copy. And I don't think the Capuchin monks, where the custodians want to have a scientific test, non-destructive.

Alright. Because it, it would, it would diminish, uh, the pilgrimage site, you know? So yeah, I think you're very clever about that, so. Well, and one of the things, and that's my theory, that I like to hear yours, so Yeah, absolutely. Well, one of the things with these pilgrimage sites is that you make money, uh, you know, maybe not the church anymore, but certainly all of the, all of the tourist shops and whatever, and so they want to have it as being, you know, absolutely true.

And that's actually one of the [00:56:00] challenges with the shroud is if you were, uh, if you really had a, uh, another test where you could be very confident that the results would be true. Then you go off and you test the shroud again, and you get a date that is not from the first century, but is maybe from some different time, you know, other than the Carbon 14 dating, uh, that you, you know, that that could be a, you know, that'll be a, you know, a challenge.

Another challenge for the shroud, us shrouds and atheists. Uh, you know, well, I wanna talk about the 2002 restoration because Yeah. Frankly, I don't blame them a bit because if, if they had announced it to all the great shroud devotees, there would've been, whoa, whoa. You gotta think about this and think about that.

And I don't think they did a good job. I think Barry Schwartz was correct. Yeah, they, they, they, they, but, but I think it was [00:57:00] done and no one's written it. That's just my own speculation. I think it was done with this attitude. Look, science has had a crack at it. And the stir pretty much confirmed. It's authentic, but we're not gonna have endless redoing of destructions of the, uh, shroud.

And I think that's one of the reasons why they vacuumed it, because they, the you, how many proofs do you want? There was a group of evangelicals decades ago said that the odds that this is not the shroud and like. Like 800 million to one. Yeah. Okay. And, and so, um, and that was a conservative estimate, so well, that vacuuming and, uh, that 2002, uh, restoration, you know, basically a, a relic should never be restored.

I mean, on the shroud side it's just, uh, the shroud scientists, they're just like livid. [00:58:00] Bill Meam, who's been involved in the Shroud for many decades, he wrote a book, it's called The Rape of the Shroud, and it is specifically about all of the information that was lost during this, this pseudo restoration where they vacuumed the shroud and removed pollen and dust off of it and dirt and grime.

They, uh, they. Chopped away. Even the, I think they even did it to those, uh, four poker holes, the prey manuscript holes that we talked about, the L holes, they chopped away and, uh, took away all of the charcoal around them. They took the, uh, the repairs that were done after the chambre fire and they removed them.

So now there's just a big hole there. They've saved them. They've saved them. But uh, when you talk about the dust being vacuumed, you'll never know exactly what location it came from and that really important, well, they claim that they've done something like that, but nevertheless, I mean, if they vacuumed, let's say the [00:59:00] whole face and didn't differentiate the dust that was on the nose from Jesus Christ falling on his nose versus his cheeks, then that's information that's lost.

And, um, you know, so vacuuming it is, was a what a big mistake. Not to mention the fact it may have stretched the shroud when you vacuum something, you know, it kind of gets sucked up and, you know, I don't know if I, I don't know what they used on there, but what's, what's the new backing cloth? Barry was very concerned, uh, how it might react to the linen.

Uh, is it silk? I, you know, I don't know. I, I don't know if they actually put a backing cloth on it. I, yeah, there's a new backing cloth put. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So they still have the old, one of you can tell that because the old backing cloth is yellowed and you can see that at the rectangles, uh, in the corners.

Okay. But when they remove the rays fragment. Which was in 1972. Voila. It was whiter than [01:00:00] the exposed parts of the backing cloth. But now when you look at, and I was there in 2010, uh, with the new backing cloth, you're looking straight through the triangular holes and it is very white. It's very, very white.

So, okay. So you have seen it? Yeah. I didn't realize. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Fantastic. So now just for everyone, the, uh, the shroud is stored in a, in an argon neutral or whatever it is. So huge, long case. And, uh, so that hopefully that will minimize and hopefully, you know, remove any possible, uh, decay that might take place on the shroud and it'll never be rolled up or folded again either.

Yeah, and it'll never be upheld up as well, because now with those repairs removed, it's now a lot more fragile, uh, overall. So it's gonna always be laid out and, and what I understand, hopefully they'll have another exhibition of it and they're gonna have a big mirror over it so that you'll be able to be [01:01:00] standing this way and you'll be looking into a mirror that's above the shroud.

And then the shroud will be, uh, you know, will still be laid out without being disturbed mechanically. Uh, so that it'll be, you know, well, I was disturbed when they'd specifically asked, and they do the same thing in the Sistine Chapel. No flash photo. And, uh, there was flash photography going on while I was in that cathedral in 2010.

They were random. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't even wanna risk it with my own little camera because it, I never know when it's automatically going to gimme a flash, so I just said, I've got enough. I, I, I just wanna see it. I don't need to take my own picture. So, yeah, I, the first time I saw a, uh, a copy of the shroud was in the Museum of the Bible.

And it was laid out, uh, you know, the 14 feet by three feet. And it was a copy. It was a copy that was a very special copy. It was supposedly [01:02:00] made by seeds that have been, uh, were linen seeds that were from 2000 years ago. And so, and, and then they were, they were, uh, they were, uh, you know, mechanically treated exactly the way they would be.

Uh, the linen was mechanically treated exactly the way, uh, his ancient, uh, uh, weavers would've done. And then they wove it in this three over one herringbone. And, and then this thing was, uh, the image was printed on it. And I remember looking at that and it is, uh, it is so I impressing of an in image. It's not impre it is impressive, but it's, it, IM, it has such an impress an impression on you that it, uh.

It's just an emotional being that is amazing. The watch that I haven't heard, I haven't heard that they had gone to that kind of a length. Could this be what I sent to you on the email of, uh, what the undamaged shroud would look like? Um, I don't, no, I don't remember that. But, uh, they, they did for, they made [01:03:00] seven copies, uh, using this method and a very detailed method.

They made seven copies and those are scattered around. And one of those is one of the ones that's, that was in the Museum of the Bible, uh, on exhibition. And now it's, it's held by the Museum of the Bible, but it's, uh, it's, it's, you know, somewhere behind the scenes, so you can't see it, unfortunately. I, I sent an email to Julie AE in Italian, and, uh, asked him about the, the, the image, which I'll explain to those who are gonna be watching this.

Uh, I found in a, oh, about a six page, um. Large foldout coffee table booklet. It wasn't a hardbound coffee table book. It was a a, a glossy booklet and I folded it out and it was, I think it was an Italian, I've lost the booklet. It was 30 years ago when I saw it. Uh, and with the foldout, it showed [01:04:00] you what the shroud might have looked like through artificial intelligence.

They extrapolated maybe where the shoulders would be and uh, other parts. So there's no ing burn marks. Okay. And I don't know who did that, but I have. Speculating. If I could get permission, I would, I would try to make my, my own traveling copy as to, Hey, this is how it looked when Peter got to the tomb.

You know, I mean, and probably the image is far more obvious than it is now, and it was also, uh, shown that way. So, uh, maybe I'll come across somebody in the, in the, uh, St. Louis, uh, symposium who says, oh, yeah, I know who did that. You know, I, I'm not sure. It's, um, yeah. Well that would be very interesting. Yeah.

Um, there's, uh, it would be very interesting to see what, uh, what that actually looked like. 'cause it, right now for the audience, uh, there are [01:05:00] these, uh, burn holes from the schore fire in, uh, the 16th century. And unfortunately, the shoulders and the sides are kind of, uh, uh, a little bit, um, you know, they're, they're gone.

And, uh, so unfortunately you can't see whether the shoulders are there. Uh, and what they might've looked like and what maybe some of the whip marks that might've been on there and, and other things related to the shoulders. So, um, I don't know how long you wanna go here, but, um, yeah, we've got a break off here, but, um, uh, this has been great, Bob.

It's, uh, it's so much fun to go back and forth and, uh, I am definitely, uh, going to be very interested in your reaction after you've, you've been part of my presentation on the, what's called the Mendelian or the image of Odessa. I've been, uh, you know, there's, there's two camps in the shroud world. There's the, the, the Mendelian and the Shroud are one in the same, and then there's the one, the other camp that says, no, no, no, they're [01:06:00] totally different claws.

And, um, and so hopefully at the end of my presentation, I, I will have convinced a couple of people and hopefully you'll be, uh, convinced as well. So I can guarantee you that I will listen with, uh, and with lots of questions and, um. I'll find it fascinating. And, um, uh, we'll just, um, we'll just have, I, I may have to readjust my own thoughts.

I've, I've already had to change, um, my PowerPoint presentation about the manoppello cloth, and so I don't have any problem with that. I'm looking for the truth. And, uh, there's a lot of avenues. I guess it's sort of, it's literally a murder mystery where, uh, the investigator has to have a hundred different theories and he has to have probably 20 suspects of which 19 are perfectly innocent.

And, uh, you take it from there. So, um. A hundred years from now, we won't be around to find out [01:07:00] what they're saying about it. Well, you know, and the funny part is, uh, and a hundred years later, there'll be something else they'll be saying about it, uh, as the knowledge evolves. So, Bob, thank you so much. I really appreciate it today.

This has been wonderful. It's, it's, it's so great to go back and forth on different things and, uh, hear different opinions and, and, uh, be able to then discuss the history in a, in a, hopefully in a, in an interesting format for the audience. Uh, so for the audience, uh, definitely stay tuned for many other videos in this series of the backstory on the shroud of Turrin.

And, uh, you can find out more information on, uh, on these and other locations@guypowell.com. And also, if you're interested, my book is a, his, a Christian historical fiction and on the shroud of Turrin, and it's a. Histor historical fiction. It's not the histor historical fiction because nobody knows exactly what it was.

Bob, any last words? Last [01:08:00] word is they can find me on uh, shroud.com as one of the shroud presenters. And I very affordable. I often don't charge a penny, uh, simply because if I'm going on vacation somewhere, I'm gonna bring the shroud with me and then I, I've arranged ahead of time, Hey, there's a church that's, um, interested.

Yeah, bring it. So, I mean, you never know how that works. And, uh, so they can, they can contact me by going to shroud.com. Alright, thank you. Wonder. Thank you guy. It has been wonderful. Absolutely. And I'll say goodbye right here. Yeah, you, yep. Absolutely. Thank you, Bob. And, uh, we'll be talking at some point definitely in St.

Louis. I'll see you in a week. Okay. [01:09:00] Yep.