1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:07,040 Difficult employees who really fun episode coming up. But no, I want you to have a think about 2 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:12,759 who is that person in your team that you feel the most angsty about, and it could be to do with some 3 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:17,240 emotional complexity. Like it could be the fact that you've been friends with them in the past 4 00:00:17,240 --> 00:00:21,800 and now you're expected to manage them. It could be the emotional complexity around them being 5 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:25,959 older than you, them having more experience than you, and it feeling difficult as opposed to their 6 00:00:25,959 --> 00:00:31,680 behaviour being difficult. Or it could just be the straight up like someone is performing badly. 7 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:37,280 Behaving badly has a negative attitude, which by the way, negative attitude is just as important as 8 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:42,319 them not performing this episode. Today, we're going to go through the entire spectrum and 9 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:48,199 process of what to do. So if you answered yes, I've got one of those employees to any of those 10 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:52,160 questions, this episode is for you because we're going to go right from the beginning. We're going 11 00:00:52,160 --> 00:00:55,760 to take some accountability for it. First, understand exactly what we can do to stop this 12 00:00:55,760 --> 00:01:00,560 happening, but then talk about what do we do? Like what's the process for these employees, how do we 13 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:05,169 manage them? How do we turn them around? Or do we? Is it time to fire them? We're going to go all the 14 00:01:05,169 --> 00:01:09,489 way there. So thank you for being here. Thank you for coming back to this podcast. It means the 15 00:01:09,489 --> 00:01:15,049 world to us. If you haven't already, please hit the Follow or Subscribe button. Please comment on this 16 00:01:15,050 --> 00:01:19,889 podcast whether you're on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, wherever you are. Drop a comment below, tell us 17 00:01:19,889 --> 00:01:23,969 what you love, tell us some feedback and tell us what you loved about the episode. It means the 18 00:01:23,970 --> 00:01:28,369 world. So let's say you've identified you've got one of these, what we're going to call a difficult 19 00:01:28,370 --> 00:01:35,009 employee. And let's say, you know, this person has a really negative attitude, or this person 20 00:01:35,010 --> 00:01:41,809 has a they're not performing well. Before we even begin to look at 21 00:01:41,970 --> 00:01:46,529 is this person good? Is this person high performer? Is this person good for the business? The first 22 00:01:46,529 --> 00:01:50,769 thing we have to do guys, you're not going to like me for this. One is take some ownership for it. 23 00:01:50,769 --> 00:01:55,689 Like we have to bring it back to ourselves. Have we caused this? The answer is not always yes, but 24 00:01:55,689 --> 00:02:01,260 you have to ask the question, what could we have been doing as their leader that could have 25 00:02:01,260 --> 00:02:07,619 perpetuated and built this behaviour. There has been so many times where I have like allowed 26 00:02:07,620 --> 00:02:13,539 things to slide. Let small things slide, whether it's small performance issues, small communication 27 00:02:13,539 --> 00:02:18,659 issues, and over time, those those issues just build and build and they become something that's 28 00:02:18,660 --> 00:02:23,259 really unmanageable. Like I remember there was an issue once with a team member, a guy that was in 29 00:02:23,259 --> 00:02:28,820 my team, and he was something he was doing in meetings. This is so specific. But he was like 30 00:02:28,899 --> 00:02:34,220 turning up to meetings and I don't want to say mansplaining. I don't think that's the right term 31 00:02:34,220 --> 00:02:39,979 here. It was like he was over explaining everything with really big words to the point 32 00:02:39,979 --> 00:02:44,739 where no one could understand him. But then he wasn't doing the work after. So it was kind of 33 00:02:44,779 --> 00:02:49,979 like someone who would really talk the talk, take up all the space in the meetings, like over 34 00:02:50,020 --> 00:02:54,179 explain everything, use big fancy words, make everyone else feel a little bit small in the 35 00:02:54,179 --> 00:02:57,899 meetings, and feel as though they couldn't, like, bring their opinion to the table because this one 36 00:02:57,899 --> 00:03:02,869 person knew everything and you know, it felt as though he was the smartest person in the room. But 37 00:03:02,869 --> 00:03:08,109 then behind the scenes, his actual performance, the things he was actually doing weren't really 38 00:03:08,110 --> 00:03:13,350 matching up to that. And I'd noticed it. My gut feeling had noticed it, but I'd also noticed it 39 00:03:13,390 --> 00:03:18,349 happening. And then someone had, like, fed it back to me that they'd noticed it too, and I kind of 40 00:03:18,350 --> 00:03:24,350 just brushed it off. Like for a very, very, very long time, probably like over a year. Just brushed 41 00:03:24,350 --> 00:03:28,830 it off because I was like, well, that's just how he communicates. Like, you know, we do want people to 42 00:03:28,869 --> 00:03:33,630 take up space in the room. Some people are too quiet. And maybe if I say something to him like, 43 00:03:33,630 --> 00:03:38,389 the whole room will go quiet. Also, you know what? If this is just his personality. Like, can I say 44 00:03:38,389 --> 00:03:45,349 something? But every time that I ignored that, not only did it kind of say to him, oh, 45 00:03:45,350 --> 00:03:49,189 this behaviour is okay. Like, continue doing this. Please continue. Like this is what I'm allowing. 46 00:03:49,189 --> 00:03:54,190 This is probably what I'm even rewarding. It also sent this signal to the rest of the team that 47 00:03:54,190 --> 00:03:59,949 this is what my standards are like. That's what I accept. I accept people who take up all the space. 48 00:03:59,950 --> 00:04:06,119 I accept people who explain and make people feel small and don't actually do the work. They talk 49 00:04:06,119 --> 00:04:10,039 the talk, but they never walk the walk. And I showed over and over again that that's what my 50 00:04:10,039 --> 00:04:16,999 standards were, and I just had to learn that big lesson of sometimes people 51 00:04:16,999 --> 00:04:23,839 come to us, come to our team, come to our place of work, with previous difficulty built 52 00:04:23,840 --> 00:04:28,719 into them. Like sometimes it could be from a previous employer, maybe, you know, they had no 53 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,879 psychological safety in a previous workplace. And so therefore they've kind of learnt to like, 54 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:37,320 protect themselves from trying new things or bringing ideas to the table. It could come from 55 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:41,640 childhood, like so many things do. It could be that they, you know, have been taught from childhood 56 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:45,679 that if they speak up, they will be vilified, that they will be judged. And so therefore they stay 57 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:51,279 quiet and they don't contribute as much. There is so many reasons why someone could become or be a 58 00:04:51,280 --> 00:04:56,959 difficult employee. And all of those reasons have usually been made by a different workplace, a 59 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:02,609 different person. And it could be us again, we could be doing that. And so before we look at like 60 00:05:02,649 --> 00:05:08,250 what to do about these people, I want you to ask yourself the question. Am I laying the foundations 61 00:05:08,250 --> 00:05:13,209 in difficult employees? Am I? You know, think about something that's really maybe just pissing you 62 00:05:13,209 --> 00:05:17,529 off, grinding your gears a little bit of work. Maybe it's that, you know, every time you come into 63 00:05:17,530 --> 00:05:22,409 a KPI reporting meeting on a Monday morning, that's the same person that just doesn't seem to 64 00:05:22,450 --> 00:05:27,289 care, doesn't seem to contribute, or doesn't complete their actions. Maybe it's that you've got 65 00:05:27,290 --> 00:05:32,689 that one person who is late to things all the time, like whatever it is, whatever that one thing 66 00:05:32,689 --> 00:05:37,729 is, it's in your head. I need you to ask the question, how could you have allowed it? How could 67 00:05:37,730 --> 00:05:43,329 you have created it? How have you accepted those standards for a long time that those standards 68 00:05:43,329 --> 00:05:48,569 have now become normal? Once we've asked ourselves those questions, obviously we need to look at 69 00:05:48,570 --> 00:05:53,608 undoing some of that behaviour. So it's just for me, truly, all it was was just never ignoring the 70 00:05:53,609 --> 00:05:58,169 difficult conversations. And if you haven't listened to our episode on Stop Being Nice, start 71 00:05:58,170 --> 00:06:01,540 Being kind yet. That was a couple of weeks ago. I would urge you to go and listen to that one, 72 00:06:01,540 --> 00:06:06,980 because we unpack kind of all the confidence, all the lack of confidence that comes around, not 73 00:06:06,980 --> 00:06:11,700 having these difficult conversations and how actually having them with people can be just the 74 00:06:11,700 --> 00:06:17,178 growth that they really need. So that leads me to the first step of dealing with this, which is to 75 00:06:17,219 --> 00:06:23,018 go and have a difficult conversation now. We all love to avoid conflict. None of us love to be the 76 00:06:23,019 --> 00:06:27,779 enemy. None of us love to people. Please. And so it is natural to us to avoid these conversations, 77 00:06:27,779 --> 00:06:33,899 just like I did for a very long time, I avoided it, but as a manager, it is now our duty to grow these 78 00:06:33,900 --> 00:06:38,940 people, to build their careers, and that means to give them the feedback they need to hear in order 79 00:06:38,940 --> 00:06:42,699 to grow, even though it's awkward. So the very first thing we're going to do is have a difficult 80 00:06:42,700 --> 00:06:46,739 conversation with this person. And I say difficult doesn't always need to be difficult. Sometimes 81 00:06:46,739 --> 00:06:52,379 it's quite a simple one. I would say it's simpler if it's about their performance. So like if it's 82 00:06:52,380 --> 00:06:57,578 about their they're missing KPIs, deadlines, lateness, whatever. Like something that's very 83 00:06:57,579 --> 00:07:04,070 tangible, easy to hold on to is quite easy to feed back on because it feels it's kind of outside of 84 00:07:04,109 --> 00:07:10,870 them. It's more like, yeah, like performance workI stuff. The bit that's hard, the bit that I, that all 85 00:07:10,870 --> 00:07:15,790 of us find really difficult is what do you do about negative just like behaviour, energy. What do 86 00:07:15,790 --> 00:07:20,989 you do about someone who just doesn't care is disengaged? Like that's harder because it can feel 87 00:07:21,029 --> 00:07:24,669 often like there isn't something to grip onto. So what I'm going to say to you, there is something 88 00:07:24,670 --> 00:07:30,309 that can be really valuable here is use the company values, like most companies nowadays have 89 00:07:30,309 --> 00:07:35,109 company values. If you don't, you should build your own. This is where people think company values 90 00:07:35,109 --> 00:07:38,989 should just be like words upon a wall and they're just bullshit. You know? The company makes it and 91 00:07:38,989 --> 00:07:42,828 never does anything about it. Well, it's us leaders that need to do something about it. And a really 92 00:07:42,829 --> 00:07:47,589 important place that those values will help you is if you have someone whose behaviour is just 93 00:07:47,589 --> 00:07:52,469 quite bad and you can't hold on to something tangible with deadlines, it means that you can 94 00:07:52,510 --> 00:07:58,149 then use those company values. Let's say you have teamwork or integrity or whatever as your company 95 00:07:58,149 --> 00:08:02,799 value. You can bring that up with them and say, this is the behaviour that we expect, and I feel 96 00:08:02,799 --> 00:08:06,439 as though your attitude over the last couple of weeks has fallen short. An example of a 97 00:08:06,439 --> 00:08:13,400 conversation that I had a few years ago was a guy who, um, anytime the company made a change. 98 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:20,159 So, you know, the classic like, businesses have new initiatives all the time. He was constantly 99 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:26,200 negative about everything before he'd even given it a chance. So distrusting, so negative. And he'd 100 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:31,119 come into the office first thing in the morning. Oh, have you seen this new company team email? Have 101 00:08:31,119 --> 00:08:35,999 you? Can you believe we've got to do this? Taking up all the space inside the office, like taking up 102 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:40,799 every bit of space. So even if someone did feel positive about it, even if someone did quite like 103 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:45,279 the change that had just happened, maybe they'd voted for it or wanted it. He was allowing no 104 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:50,199 space for anyone to feel anything other than what he wanted them to feel, because he was just like 105 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:54,879 coming in and giving away all these emotions. And that was a tough one, and it was happening for a 106 00:08:54,880 --> 00:09:01,049 while. The conversation I had to have with him was, do you realise that when you do that, you create 107 00:09:01,050 --> 00:09:06,129 space, but you're not creating space for anyone's emotions. It's okay that you don't like this 108 00:09:06,130 --> 00:09:11,569 change. It's okay that you feel negatively towards this new initiative. What's not okay is you come 109 00:09:11,570 --> 00:09:15,929 into the office, can explain your emotions everywhere, and not allowing anyone to feel 110 00:09:15,930 --> 00:09:20,449 anything other than what you feel, because you give them no space to. And so that was a hard 111 00:09:20,449 --> 00:09:24,650 conversation I remember having to have that. I actually had to speak to my leadership coach at 112 00:09:24,650 --> 00:09:29,530 the time before that conversation because I was like, what do I even say? Like it? So, you know, I 113 00:09:29,530 --> 00:09:34,009 know it's okay for him to feel that way, but he's like bringing this energy into the room. And we 114 00:09:34,010 --> 00:09:39,009 had a value inside the business which was given. It was all about feedback, like giving and taking 115 00:09:39,009 --> 00:09:45,968 feedback, radical candour. And what I hooked it to was that value, because it was actually he felt 116 00:09:45,969 --> 00:09:50,049 a certain way and he wasn't giving the feedback. He wasn't coming to me, he wasn't coming to any of 117 00:09:50,049 --> 00:09:54,729 his peers or seniors and saying, here's my feedback on this thing. Can we change it? He was 118 00:09:54,729 --> 00:09:59,369 just splaying those emotions everywhere. And so values can be really valuable. Values can be so 119 00:09:59,420 --> 00:10:04,579 helpful when it comes to having conversations with people about things that aren't as tangible 120 00:10:04,579 --> 00:10:08,499 as performance or KPIs. And when we have these conversations, I've got a method called the four 121 00:10:08,539 --> 00:10:12,939 P's method. I'll put a link to the PDF. You can go download it. It's completely free to the four P's 122 00:10:12,939 --> 00:10:19,299 method in the description. This method I use. I preface this by saying it doesn't actually matter 123 00:10:19,299 --> 00:10:24,499 too much what method you use to have a difficult conversation. The crux of all of them is very 124 00:10:24,500 --> 00:10:30,379 similar. You just need to make sure that a you have a method. You need to have a method because 125 00:10:30,379 --> 00:10:34,418 if you go in there without a method of how you're going to deliver it, you're going to soften it. 126 00:10:34,419 --> 00:10:37,779 You're going to over explain yourself. You're going to go around the houses and you're going to 127 00:10:37,780 --> 00:10:42,099 end up leaving that conversation thinking, did I actually say the thing that that person needed to 128 00:10:42,099 --> 00:10:46,819 hear? Or did I just say whatever was the most comfortable in the moment? So have a method go and 129 00:10:46,819 --> 00:10:51,539 steal my four P's method. Um, and you can write it down as well. So something I used to do when 130 00:10:51,539 --> 00:10:54,819 conversations got really hard, I remember a conversation I had to have with one of our 131 00:10:54,819 --> 00:10:58,539 marketing team in an old business where his standard of work was just not good enough 132 00:10:58,539 --> 00:11:04,509 whatsoever, And it felt tough because he got really defensive. And so every time I was in these 133 00:11:04,510 --> 00:11:08,950 conversations with him, giving him feedback and he was getting really defensive towards me, I would 134 00:11:08,990 --> 00:11:13,150 kind of just like soften everything and I'd step back and be like, oh, well, you know. Yeah. Never mind. 135 00:11:13,189 --> 00:11:18,870 Well, I'm glad we had this conversation. Yeah, I understand, and I'd really, like, go back in on 136 00:11:18,870 --> 00:11:25,669 myself and not actually say the thing that I needed to say. So I started writing down the key 137 00:11:25,669 --> 00:11:31,029 statements of the message I wanted to say. I would then go into that conversation and be like, can 138 00:11:31,030 --> 00:11:36,869 you just, you know, this is I need to give you some feedback. Is it okay that I give you that now? Yes. 139 00:11:37,109 --> 00:11:42,909 Okay. Here are the kind of four key points. And then I would read through the key points. And then 140 00:11:42,909 --> 00:11:48,989 again just shut up. Let that feedback land. Give them the space to process it. Don't over explain 141 00:11:48,990 --> 00:11:54,389 yourself. Just say the things that are on that page and then be quiet. So firstly you need a 142 00:11:54,390 --> 00:12:01,080 method okay. Secondly, that method needs to always start with something called the purpose. It may be 143 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:05,960 called the context, the why, the purpose, whatever you may have heard Simon Sinek start with why 144 00:12:06,159 --> 00:12:11,519 explaining the purpose before you explain anything to anyone. And this happens in difficult 145 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:16,239 conversations. It also needs to happen in delegation processes. When you're explaining 146 00:12:16,239 --> 00:12:22,759 something, we as human beings tend to like jump four steps ahead. You know, say, if I was delegating 147 00:12:22,759 --> 00:12:29,640 a piece of work to leave, I, I would say, can you create the campaigns for me and do it by Tuesday? 148 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:35,079 Okay, I've jumped four steps ahead. Levi doesn't know why these campaigns are so important, who 149 00:12:35,119 --> 00:12:39,159 they're serving, why are we putting them into place? Why are we doing it now? Why is it important 150 00:12:39,159 --> 00:12:44,719 we do it on this platform, and so we have to connect it to the why? Because we don't get out of 151 00:12:44,719 --> 00:12:50,240 bed in the morning to tick off tasks. We get off out of bed in the morning for a purpose, to 152 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:54,319 understand the why, the deeper meaning behind why we're doing something and what our work is 153 00:12:54,320 --> 00:13:00,129 impacting. We have to help people connect their work to the why and so do it through difficult 154 00:13:00,129 --> 00:13:04,369 conversations. So now and just always take an extra minute at the beginning of a conversation. 155 00:13:04,409 --> 00:13:09,168 Again, this is, you know, if you listen to the last episode all about time and buying back time, it 156 00:13:09,169 --> 00:13:13,649 takes a bit more time in the moment, but you will buy back the time because the message will land 157 00:13:13,650 --> 00:13:19,529 so well. So explain the purpose. At the beginning of a conversation. I would say the reason I'm 158 00:13:19,530 --> 00:13:24,129 having this conversation with you is because your behaviour has been impacting the wider team. The 159 00:13:24,129 --> 00:13:28,368 reason I'm having this conversation with you is because I see a future here for you, and I really 160 00:13:28,369 --> 00:13:32,649 want you to grow. However, this one thing is holding you back. You know, giving them that 161 00:13:32,650 --> 00:13:38,529 context just helps to set this in. This is the bigger picture of what we're doing here. This 162 00:13:38,530 --> 00:13:43,929 isn't a I'm pointing my finger at your bad behaviour. This is I am going to explain this to 163 00:13:43,930 --> 00:13:49,569 you because I care because it's impacting other people. And so make sure a you've got a you've got 164 00:13:49,569 --> 00:13:54,089 a process of some description and B that it starts with a purpose. And then obviously, I mean 165 00:13:54,090 --> 00:13:58,449 we can go through the four P's. But a process, your difficult conversation process should look like 166 00:13:58,539 --> 00:14:02,819 explaining the purpose. Then you want some sort of proof in the middle. So you want some sort of 167 00:14:02,859 --> 00:14:07,179 proof around what it is that they've done the problem. You want the problem, what's the issue 168 00:14:07,179 --> 00:14:13,059 that this is causing? And then the final bit that most managers ignore is called the path. What 169 00:14:13,059 --> 00:14:17,699 comes next? What's the consequence if this behaviour continues? Do we have another difficult 170 00:14:17,699 --> 00:14:22,739 conversation. Do we have to formalise it. Do we have to go on a performance plan? What is the next 171 00:14:22,739 --> 00:14:26,619 step after this difficult conversation? And this is all the stuff I'm always banging on about 172 00:14:26,620 --> 00:14:32,419 custard guys. But all of these plans frameworks for conversations are inside custard. If you 173 00:14:32,419 --> 00:14:37,739 haven't already, go and start a free trial. You can try across Custard for free today. It's a it'll 174 00:14:37,780 --> 00:14:42,140 pull survey. Your team will get all the data you need from your team to level up your management 175 00:14:42,140 --> 00:14:47,299 of them. It will then, in turn, use that data to get the actions to you that you need to go and do so. 176 00:14:47,299 --> 00:14:51,619 It will tell you to have these difficult conversations. If engagement accountability is low, 177 00:14:51,659 --> 00:14:55,779 it'll tell you to go and have some of these conversations with people to figure out why, and 178 00:14:55,819 --> 00:15:00,150 to kind of set paths and plans for them. Come in next. Okay. So you've got this difficult employee. 179 00:15:00,190 --> 00:15:04,389 You've taken accountability. You've had a difficult conversation with them. What happens 180 00:15:04,429 --> 00:15:08,389 next? What if they don't change? We've already tried giving them this feedback. They don't seem 181 00:15:08,389 --> 00:15:15,189 to be taking it on. What do we do now? So the next step is always our manager's favourite tool is a 182 00:15:15,189 --> 00:15:20,909 pip, a performance management plan. Now, I would probably have like three conversations before I 183 00:15:20,909 --> 00:15:26,989 got to this point, and I would also make sure in those conversations explain to them if they don't 184 00:15:26,990 --> 00:15:31,909 change this behaviour, the Pip is coming, the Pip is on the way and the performance plan is on the 185 00:15:31,909 --> 00:15:35,709 way. And if you don't have a clue what I'm talking about with a performance plan, or you're a bit 186 00:15:35,710 --> 00:15:40,429 like, oh, I do kind of understand what that is, I've kind of seen them. Um, don't worry, I'm going to 187 00:15:40,469 --> 00:15:44,709 explain it all to you because I needed to explain it to me very clearly as well, because I think 188 00:15:45,069 --> 00:15:49,069 this is the sort of stuff that, like, we're expected to know and no one really ever talks us 189 00:15:49,070 --> 00:15:53,349 through it. So I'm going to talk you through it because it's helpful for my brain to be difficult 190 00:15:53,349 --> 00:15:56,468 conversations. Explain to them if they don't change this behaviour, they're going to go on a 191 00:15:56,469 --> 00:16:03,079 Pip. Now what the hell is a pip? A performance improvement plan is actually a HR tool. So it was. 192 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:09,640 It was built out with HR in mind. And what we mean by HR is I mean, there's so many different ways 193 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:14,279 that we can look at HR in a business. But one of the most important ways is compliance is making 194 00:16:14,279 --> 00:16:20,118 sure that your business is is legally compliant, that we are taking care of our employees in the 195 00:16:20,119 --> 00:16:25,799 most legal way, and keeping everyone kind of operating to the highest compliance standards of 196 00:16:25,799 --> 00:16:31,359 HR in business and a performance plan. The reason that HR kind of developed this performance plan 197 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:38,159 in general is that we have to give people a fair chance before dismissal. So obviously you've got 198 00:16:38,159 --> 00:16:41,799 different types of dismissal, like gross misconduct. Maybe you've had difficult, they've had 199 00:16:41,799 --> 00:16:47,080 warnings, whatever, and then you fire them. A performance improvement plan is I am giving you a 200 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:53,240 chance to improve. It's also very well documented, very important. Guys, document motherfucking 201 00:16:53,240 --> 00:17:00,049 everything. If you haven't already been involved in some sort of messy HR Thing in business yet 202 00:17:00,090 --> 00:17:05,489 you will do at some point. I guarantee. Even the kindest, sweetest leaders who never get into 203 00:17:05,490 --> 00:17:11,170 trouble, who never do anything wrong, you will end up tangled up in HR something at some point 204 00:17:11,170 --> 00:17:16,289 because it's just the way of the world. It just happens. And like I ended up getting pulled into 205 00:17:16,329 --> 00:17:20,329 one. It wasn't even technically to do with me. It was to do with two other entities. But I got 206 00:17:20,329 --> 00:17:24,689 pulled into it because I was part of one of the conversations, and I had documented the 207 00:17:24,689 --> 00:17:29,369 conversation, and therefore everything was clean and I had screenshots and I had evidence and 208 00:17:29,370 --> 00:17:34,089 timestamps. But, um, just make sure that you're documenting these things. And when I say 209 00:17:34,089 --> 00:17:38,250 documenting, it sounds a bit pedantic, but after you have a difficult conversation with someone, I 210 00:17:38,250 --> 00:17:43,569 would highly recommend just sending them a very quickly email afterwards to say just to confirm, 211 00:17:43,569 --> 00:17:48,410 we spoke about X, Y, and Z. Here's the next steps that I expect. Here's the next steps that we 212 00:17:48,410 --> 00:17:54,009 expect. Um, can you just reply to say you confirm all well received? It helps with clarity of 213 00:17:54,010 --> 00:17:58,779 communication, but it also helps to save your ass if ever anything goes wrong and just keeping 214 00:17:58,780 --> 00:18:03,219 everything clean and making sure it's all documented. Performance plans are the next step in 215 00:18:03,219 --> 00:18:09,979 this, and they can feel a bit weird and a bit scary. And I think, again, there is this sort of 216 00:18:09,980 --> 00:18:16,459 brand around performance improvement plans that they're built to manage people out. And if ever I 217 00:18:16,459 --> 00:18:23,099 talk about performance plans online, the internet comes down on my throat with employees, people 218 00:18:23,100 --> 00:18:28,498 who've experienced them before, saying this is just a way for a company to manage people out. And 219 00:18:28,540 --> 00:18:33,859 truthfully, some businesses do that. Like that's what some businesses use it for, because 220 00:18:33,900 --> 00:18:38,739 technically you can use it to get rid of someone because it means that if you do the difficult 221 00:18:38,739 --> 00:18:43,819 conversations, you document them. You go through the performance plan technically at the other 222 00:18:43,819 --> 00:18:48,859 side of it, like you can get you can fire someone, you can let someone go because you've well 223 00:18:48,899 --> 00:18:53,299 documented everything, I mean, right. Let's not get into the legal stuff here. Obviously check with HR 224 00:18:53,339 --> 00:18:57,699 before you let anyone go, but just for illustration purposes, that is kind of the brand 225 00:18:57,699 --> 00:19:02,309 around pips. We need to rebrand them a bit, guys, because we really need to rebrand them because 226 00:19:02,310 --> 00:19:08,150 performance improvement plans. Done properly, can really help set people up for success. I have been 227 00:19:08,150 --> 00:19:13,069 through. Not me being through them, but being through with other people. 2 or 3 performance 228 00:19:13,069 --> 00:19:17,829 improvement plans where the person has come out the other side of it, a whole new person. It's 229 00:19:17,829 --> 00:19:24,829 almost just like a bit of a deeper way of getting feedback to that person week 230 00:19:24,830 --> 00:19:30,589 on week to make sure that they very clearly improve. All of Pip is is a spreadsheet, 231 00:19:30,630 --> 00:19:36,309 essentially a spreadsheet. And it's a spreadsheet that has goals with a very clear outcome. So it 232 00:19:36,310 --> 00:19:42,509 would say like the spread, the document was completed on time, and that employee will go 233 00:19:42,509 --> 00:19:47,749 through at the end of every week and they will tick. Yes. Completed or no, not completed. Usually 234 00:19:47,749 --> 00:19:52,029 they will have like a short session with you 15 20 minutes. At the end of every week they will 235 00:19:52,030 --> 00:19:56,029 present to you. Okay, this is what have completed this week. This is what I haven't. This is where I 236 00:19:56,030 --> 00:20:00,919 think I need to improve. And you will then kind of sign off and say, okay, great, here's some more 237 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,239 feedback. Here's where you did really well. Here's where I think we should look at improving next 238 00:20:04,239 --> 00:20:09,239 week. And it's almost like a form of micromanagement in a positive way. It's like 239 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:15,359 saying for these six weeks or 12 weeks, I am going to sit with you and help you improve further and 240 00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:20,159 help you level up even further. Like I said, I've done it a few times when it's worked really well 241 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:24,040 and people have taken to it really well. They've put a lot of effort in and they've come out the 242 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:28,040 other side and just smashed their job, and then they've gone away and done amazing things 243 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:33,479 afterwards. So don't be afraid to use a pip. I think a lot of people are afraid to use it 244 00:20:33,479 --> 00:20:38,679 because of the brand around it being very like, I'm going to manage someone out, but damn well 245 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:43,079 like as long as you make it super clear to that person, look, I'm trying to set you up for success. 246 00:20:43,079 --> 00:20:49,319 I want the best outcome for me and you is we get to the end of this, to this at the end of the six, 247 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:54,759 ten, 12 weeks, whichever you choose to do. And you've improved. And we get back to business as 248 00:20:54,760 --> 00:21:01,250 usual. And you remain a great member of this team. But currently there's an issue and I can't let it 249 00:21:01,250 --> 00:21:07,969 slide. And I have to kind of move into Pip with you. So it's always fun talking about pimps and 250 00:21:07,969 --> 00:21:13,009 it's always very, you know, it's very like HR process tool documentation kind of vibes. And it 251 00:21:13,009 --> 00:21:18,569 can feel a bit scary. But I think having the knowledge and understanding that they exist is 252 00:21:18,689 --> 00:21:25,209 really powerful. Because when I, when I was first, first, first in management at Harrods, I was so 253 00:21:25,210 --> 00:21:30,809 scared of do you know what it was? It's like I would avoid difficult conversations because I 254 00:21:30,810 --> 00:21:35,409 didn't quite understand what the next step was, and it was almost like I would avoid saying 255 00:21:35,410 --> 00:21:38,608 something because I think, well, they're just going to ignore me or get defensive. And then where does 256 00:21:38,609 --> 00:21:44,249 it go from there? And just by learning and understanding HR and pips, you don't have to 257 00:21:44,249 --> 00:21:50,169 become an expert. I'm not an expert. Just understanding like compliance, the law, your rights, 258 00:21:50,170 --> 00:21:54,608 like the tools that you have at your disposal can help you be a better manager. Because even if you 259 00:21:54,609 --> 00:21:58,500 never have to use them, you just know that they're there and you kind of understand the processes. So 260 00:21:58,500 --> 00:22:03,859 I would just yeah recommend just get a bit knowledgeable on that stuff. But then what happens 261 00:22:03,900 --> 00:22:08,579 at the end of the PYP? Okay. Let's say they pass it all. Well amazing. Stunning. Let's go back to 262 00:22:08,620 --> 00:22:15,140 business as usual. But let's say they don't. We need to talk about letting people go. Nothing will 263 00:22:15,140 --> 00:22:20,499 lose you great employees faster than them watching you tolerate a bad one. You. If you 264 00:22:20,540 --> 00:22:26,979 consistently tolerate these difficult employees throughout your career, you will never, 265 00:22:26,979 --> 00:22:33,579 ever be able to reach this sort of respected leader who builds other people around them. 266 00:22:33,579 --> 00:22:39,539 Because it's not just that person that they're impacting, it's the rest of the team. It's not, you 267 00:22:39,540 --> 00:22:43,540 know, every time that you say, I'm going to ignore this difficult behaviour, I'm going to allow this 268 00:22:43,540 --> 00:22:48,619 negative energy to continue. It's not about them. It's about the other three, four people in your 269 00:22:48,620 --> 00:22:55,299 team who see that and go, oh, okay, well they accept those standards, so I'm just going to lower mine 270 00:22:55,300 --> 00:22:59,829 or see it and go, I don't want to work here because I'm a high performer. And why is that 271 00:22:59,829 --> 00:23:04,270 person getting away with low performance and we're getting paid the same amount? We have to 272 00:23:04,270 --> 00:23:10,149 think of that kindness, of that longer picture of that doing the uncomfortable thing because it 273 00:23:10,150 --> 00:23:16,669 benefits you, the rest of the team and them in the long run. I have let people go. I've probably I 274 00:23:16,670 --> 00:23:20,948 don't I don't know the exact number, but I would say like maybe 20 people I've had to let go in 275 00:23:20,949 --> 00:23:26,508 the last ten years in various teams, various businesses, various roles. It's never nice. It's 276 00:23:26,509 --> 00:23:33,069 horrible. In fact, it's the worst feeling ever. There are usually a lot of tears. It's usually 277 00:23:33,189 --> 00:23:39,629 just, yeah, the most awful, awful situation. But nine times out of ten, the person on the other end gone 278 00:23:39,629 --> 00:23:45,348 somewhere has kind of learnt this big life lesson because they've realised that the standards that 279 00:23:45,349 --> 00:23:49,389 they were bringing to the table weren't good enough for what they wanted to achieve. And 280 00:23:49,390 --> 00:23:52,709 they've gone and flipped it around, they've turned it around and they've gone and got another 281 00:23:52,709 --> 00:23:57,269 amazing job that they're really good at. And it just goes back to that feedback point that's like, 282 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:03,559 you know, you can dance around people all you want. You can pretend you can avoid the conflict. You 283 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,879 cannot tell them the thing that's not helping them. It's not helping anyone. It's not helping 284 00:24:07,879 --> 00:24:12,599 your team. It's not helping them. It's not helping you. And so having. Letting people go sometimes is 285 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:19,439 the thing. And most of the time, in fact, in like almost every one of those situations apart 286 00:24:19,439 --> 00:24:25,599 from Harrod's are apart from if it's been like gross misconduct, I would say all of those 287 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:32,559 situations, I have paid them an extra month's salary so that they can go 288 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,438 and kind of find another job. They're not going to have time without paying their bills, because I 289 00:24:36,439 --> 00:24:42,399 just think it's also my fault. Like if I take on a lot of ownership and responsibility for the fact 290 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,160 that maybe I've hired them and they're not they're not right. Like maybe I've hired them 291 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,919 thinking that they were one thing, and then they've shown up and been a different thing. And 292 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,879 we've tried and we've worked together and it's not right. And so I take on responsibility for 293 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:59,289 hiring someone, like not doing my due diligence, not getting that right. Maybe it's that I've 294 00:24:59,329 --> 00:25:03,449 accepted those low standards for too long and now I'm not accepting them. We actually once paid 295 00:25:03,449 --> 00:25:08,129 someone and this years ago we paid someone three months because they've been with the business for 296 00:25:08,129 --> 00:25:13,089 a while and I wasn't a manager. And then all of a sudden I was and the previous manager had just 297 00:25:13,089 --> 00:25:18,249 been tolerating the standards forever and ever and ever and and now it just wasn't good enough. 298 00:25:18,249 --> 00:25:23,328 And so it was kind of like, well, we've been unfair on that person because we've been tolerating 299 00:25:23,329 --> 00:25:27,929 those things. We've tried to turn them around. It's not worked. And so I'm going to pay them for three 300 00:25:27,930 --> 00:25:33,050 months because I don't want them to be left in the lurch. I see this as partly my responsibility. 301 00:25:33,050 --> 00:25:40,009 And so it's like I see this as a it can just be such a mature business decision 302 00:25:40,009 --> 00:25:45,969 for you and the other person if it's done right. Um, and just so many of us avoid it, we just avoid 303 00:25:45,969 --> 00:25:52,489 it like the plague. And so, yeah, just please try to again see that as kindness. And if you have the 304 00:25:52,489 --> 00:25:56,530 tools in your belt to pay that person for a little while so that they can find themselves on 305 00:25:56,530 --> 00:26:00,019 their own feet, I would highly recommend you do that as well, because then it's kind of kindness 306 00:26:00,020 --> 00:26:03,779 all around. And I actually have quite good relationships with some people that I've let go 307 00:26:03,779 --> 00:26:09,139 in the past because of the kindness that I've attempted to give them throughout that process. 308 00:26:09,180 --> 00:26:13,139 That being said, you know, not trying to put myself on a pedestal because it is just shit. It's not 309 00:26:13,139 --> 00:26:18,659 nice, not fun for anyone. Um, but sometimes it just needs to happen. It just needs to happen. So this 310 00:26:18,660 --> 00:26:23,219 is my difficult employee process. Start by taking accountability in yourself first. Have the 311 00:26:23,220 --> 00:26:29,020 difficult conversation. Do the Pip. And if we have to at the very, very last stage, we may have to let 312 00:26:29,020 --> 00:26:34,819 that person go, go run through all that process. This is your job as a manager. This is it. Managing 313 00:26:34,819 --> 00:26:40,859 people. We are now responsible for managing these people as best as possible. You just can't 314 00:26:41,699 --> 00:26:46,179 let these things slide anymore. We can't let them slide. This is the sort of stuff that this is the 315 00:26:46,180 --> 00:26:50,338 important work. Like I said, if you listen to last week's episode where we talked about time urgent 316 00:26:50,339 --> 00:26:55,619 versus important, this is important. This work is the stuff that should take precedence. We should 317 00:26:55,660 --> 00:26:59,989 be coaching. We should be building. We should be developing people. Helping people improve 318 00:26:59,990 --> 00:27:04,669 themselves. So make sure you take the time out to go and do that. Now we are going to run some 319 00:27:04,670 --> 00:27:11,389 episodes where we take dilemmas. We take struggles from you, directly from you, and we work towards 320 00:27:11,430 --> 00:27:16,789 undoing those throughout the podcast. And so I would love it if you could email your biggest 321 00:27:16,790 --> 00:27:21,509 leadership struggle, one that you'd like me to go through, help you unpack. We will keep everything 322 00:27:21,509 --> 00:27:27,148 strictly anonymous. Please email it with as much detail as possible to hello at the Boardroom 323 00:27:27,149 --> 00:27:32,189 podcast comm. Send it through. We're going to do a brilliant episode where we review all your 324 00:27:32,189 --> 00:27:36,189 biggest dilemmas, all your biggest struggles, and we'll really get to the bottom of each of them. 325 00:27:36,189 --> 00:27:40,989 And thank you for being here. Please, like I said before, it helps so much. We are a brand new 326 00:27:40,989 --> 00:27:45,709 podcast you like and subscribe in everything that we do on here. If you have any feedback you can 327 00:27:45,709 --> 00:27:49,589 send it through to comment. Let me know what your favourite bit of the episode was, what you 328 00:27:49,590 --> 00:27:53,509 resonated with and just yeah, so grateful for you being here and we'll see you next week.