Welcome to Just Breathe.

I am so happy you are here today and have taken a little time out of your day to listen while you're walking or cooking or driving or whatever you may be up to.

So, so grateful you are here today.

I have a really, really interesting guest and just fascinating human who has had quite a life's journey and shares it with us today.

And I am just so grateful because I like to get and I like to be able to share with you all perspective from all different types of people and people who have come out at all different times, their lives and had different coming out experiences and then share whether that coming out had any effect on their life's purpose.

And it just so happens that it did on this person.

Really, really, really excited for you to listen into our conversation.

So I'll just give you a quick introduction to David Devore, who is a life coach who specializes now in the challenges of queer life, such as coming out, internalized homophobia and shame.

David embarked upon a spiritual journey in his early 40s in response to midlife existential crisis.

He discovered that internalized homophobia and shame had been holding him back in all areas of his life by negatively coloring the lens of his perspective.

This cathartic moment ignited David's passion for the work he does with the LGBTQIA community today.

David is a master level psychotherapist and wellness coach.

So without further ado, take a listen to our conversation.

Welcome to Just Breathe Parenting, your LGBTQ team, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child.

My name is Heather Hester and I am so grateful you are here.

I want you to take a deep breath and know that for the time we are together, you are in the safety of the Just Breathe nest.

Whether today's show is an amazing guest or me sharing stories, resources, strategies, or lessons I've learned along our journey, I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop, having a cozy chat.

Most of all, I want you to remember that wherever you are on this journey right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone.

Welcome, David.

I am so happy you are here today.

And I'm.

I'm so excited to be here to meet you.

I'm so excited about the work that you're doing.

It's so incredibly valued and important in our community.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

That really, that does mean a lot.

And just thank you.

You're welcome.

I've been looking forward to this conversation because I think that you have such a Unique perspective.

And you're doing very interesting work as well and just really would love to hear what kind of the big, like the big question.

You talk about this a lot on TikTok.

TikTok plug.

FYI, who am I?

The big question, who am I?

That was a big changing question for you in your life.

Yes.

I had, I guess, what you would consider to be the midlife crisis, existential crisis in my early 40s, where I recognized that I wasn't really showing my life fully.

I felt like I was sort of just walking on the parameter of my life and sort of just dipping into it.

But I wasn't really invested.

And my.

In my relationship.

I had been with a man for 12 years and I felt like I wasn't fully trusting of him and that I was sort of faking it, sort of playing.

And I was wondering why that was and why I was feeling sort of stuck in my life.

And I knew there had to be something more.

And then it really came up like, well, who am I and why am I experiencing this way?

And how do I find a way to have more joy in my life, to feel more engaged in my life, to be more purpose driven?

And that led me into a spiritual journey.

And I had always been on a spiritual path, but I really made a very conscious effort to work on this.

So I started following gurus and reading books and going to retreats and doing workshops.

And I ended up in India at this really intensive spiritual retreat.

And during this retreat, in a contemplation.

And it was intense.

It was like six in the morning till two in the morning sometimes.

Spiritual practices, teachings, contemplations, it really, really pushed me.

But I began to see the ways in which the messages that I received about being gay as a child, the thousands of messages, the things that I heard on tv, the thing that I heard my mother say in the station wagon, the thing that my father used to say at dinner, just these little comments that they had been stored up within me, that I'd repressed them, but yet they were incredibly active in my perception.

They were literally coloring the lens of my perception in life in all areas and holding me back and making me feel stuck.

And I came to see that I had developed masks that I was wearing to survive my life as a gay boy, to fit in, to be more like everybody else, because all I wanted was love and acceptance, which is what we all want, right?

And that when I made that discovery, I realized that I wasn't really presenting as my authentic self because I had become habituated to be more masculine, to be less sensitive, to be less empathic.

And that some of the gifts that naturally came from me being gay in the challenges of gay life, such as that sensitivity, I was pushing down because I thought that that would be unacceptable.

Because I learned boys don't cry, boys aren't sensitive.

And yet those are the gifts that I now have embraced and I'm leading with in the work that I do because it's so important in the field of doing, of coaching, and especially with gay men and the work that I do to have that sense of deeper compassion and empathy and understanding that we often get on the journey of a gay person when we are in a marginalized community and experience that kind of rejection, it opens our heart up to other marginalized communities and people on that path.

And that's been the impetus for my work in a nutshell.

That's amazing.

So before, you were already doing kind of doing this kind of work, but you just really, really broadened, right?

Like, opened your arms and embraced?

Yes.

Oh, my gosh.

It changed everything.

Because, you know, I started when I was 25 as a wellness coach and fitness trainer.

When I.

When I turned 30, I went back to graduate school to become a master's level therapist, psychotherapist.

And in the beginning, I was very intellectual and very mind and body.

But I was missing that spiritual connection for myself that I lost somewhere in my childhood because I felt abandoned by my Catholic upbringing and by my God.

And I was trying to find that connection again.

And that was another part of the reason that I went more deeply into the spiritual journey was realizing that that was missing.

And then on the other side of it, I ended up working with a spiritual coach, and I did a lot of much deeper healing.

So now in my practice and working with people, I can go much deeper with them faster because I've been there and because I know what that terrain looks like and I'm not afraid of it.

And I can hold the space without judgment because I really do feel compassion because I can see it and I'm not afraid of it myself.

Whereas in the past I was more intellectual and I was kind of afraid of getting into the nitty gritty because I would.

Of my own fear about my own pain.

Right?

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah.

Oh, that makes so much sense.

Oh, my goodness.

I mean, the levels deeper that you can go now are just extraordinary.

And being able to touch on those topics of.

I mean, kind of.

I'm going to use different words that that whole idea of toxic masculinity all those things, right?

Boys cry.

Boys aren't sensitive.

Boys aren't supposed to be.

This, this and this toxic masculinity, which is just so dangerous for and for gay men in particular.

But I, you know, widen that to be all men.

I mean, I think that that is just so, so dangerous.

Definitely.

I mean, I think even mixed with the pieces of, you know, shame and all of that internalized, just stuff for your entire life.

So can you talk a little bit about that process of, like, really, like, when you were beginning to pick it apart because you knew.

I mean, I'm sure on an intellectual level, even all that time you knew there was stuff in there that you were like, we're not going there.

That's just.

No, but then once you started kind of like peeling away those layers and, like, what was that like?

And what did you really.

Like?

How did you begin to come to terms with and heal and just let go of those things?

Well, when I first became aware of it, I almost couldn't believe that it was, like, right under my nose, you know, like, it didn't make sense to me because I'm a pretty intuitive person.

But I was so blindsided by the shame and internalized homophobia that my ego presentation, the mask that I created to survive my life, could not withstand shame.

It couldn't, because I was in survival mode.

Right.

So the what.

The way I was projecting myself into the world, that was way too vulnerable.

And the first time that I actually went into that space, I consider it to be like this.

A dark cavern that I created within myself that housed all of those experiences of feeling rejected by the world around me that I was desperately afraid to go into because of the pain of it.

When I first was able to just say out loud that I actually hated myself for being gay as a child, that I wished it wouldn't happen.

There was something really magical in that first recognition.

It almost felt like that dark cavern that I had created.

I realized that it wasn't a dark cavern and it was illuminated by light.

And although it was painful and I felt the deep pain of that rejection, it was so freeing for me.

Me to.

It was a.

It was a real step of authenticity for me because it was the first time I made a real emotional connection to those feelings that I had been hiding because I became habituated in survival to run through my life and not look back, to pretend that everything was okay and that I was okay.

And it was those first steps of making that connection.

And I came to see that I always had an anxiety Disorder.

And that for me, the symptoms of shame very much mimic anxiety.

And it's sort of like facing a fight or flight situation.

I tend to run, I tend to pretend, or I used to pretend to, by anesthetizing myself, by numbing out in any way that I could.

And when I became aware of that, I could see where those triggers came from.

Does that make sense?

And how they manifested in my body in terms of anxiety.

And that became very powerful, because what I recognized is in this work is that as a queer person, part of the pathway and the journey is learning to accept and embrace our experiences of shame and homophobia and recognize the triggers in the way that they feel and also understand where they originally came from, and continuing to embrace the child that we once were as the adult, now as the hero who can come back and literally hold that child and say, yes, I'm going to listen to you.

I'm going to stay with you.

And I realized how much I had abandoned myself and that I was holding myself hostage in this dark cavern of bad me, this part of myself that I was so afraid of and what a disservice I did to myself.

And it's this lifelong process I consider to be just such a part of the path of being queer that we come to it every day.

And just like in my yoga practice, I come to it every day.

Sometimes I might feel a little triggered.

And I know how to come to myself and learn to embrace it and take the time out to acknowledge and recognize it and look at myself in the mirror and really develop a deeper sense of self, compassion and intimacy, which is very much what I teach with my clients.

It is so wonderful.

So really, it's something that.

And it makes total sense to me as I'm, you know, as I'm listening to this, to what you're saying is that it's something that you are forever healing.

Yes.

I wanted to arrive at a place with this work where I could be like, I remember shame.

I remember internalized homophobia.

I know it really.

It's terrible, but I have the solution.

And then I would have a shame moment.

I would have a shame storm.

You know what I mean?

And then I'd be like, oh, my gosh, should I talk about having shame?

And then I remember talking to a friend, and he was like, don't talk about your shame experience.

Aren't you supposed to be working with people and helping get rid of it?

And then I had this aha moment that was like, you know, the human mind is sort of wired for Shame as we compare ourselves to other people and feel less than or more in those situations, the way that we evaluate ourselves and the ways in which we're different.

And we all have a shame arsenal in our.

In our mind, in terms of the experiences that we had that made us feel different, undeserving, unworthy, and unlovable.

This is magnified often for LGBT TQ children because we are ostracized.

We are often ostracized within religion and feeling like that we're going to hell, that we're the black sheep, you know, there's a whole moral judgment that also comes into it in terms of sexuality that further compounds the experience of shame, depending on where you.

What kind of a religion I guess you grow up in.

But many religions are condemning of it, of course, because they very much mimic the heteronormative narrative that has always been out there, which is the majority rules, and this is the way that it goes.

And queer children, then, often, depending on how much they buy into that religious system, can feel such a tremendous sense of rejection and abandon and a sense of hopelessness.

And this is why it's dangerous for children as they're processing who they are.

And in school systems, where there is a lot of bullying that happens out there, that children have a place to feel a sense of support and love and unconditional love for who they are in a world that feels like it could be that it's continuously berating them.

And that hopelessness that creates a real sense of separation and anxiety for a child is what can ultimately lead to teen suicides, as they feel that there's absolutely no hope.

They're completely on their own.

Nobody loves them, their family is rejecting them.

Every.

The world is rejecting them in their environment.

And it's terrifying.

And that's where the role of parents comes in.

And why I'm so passionate about this and being here is that, you know, and that you're doing this work because.

And I've actually been getting parents who come into my lives now who have questions about their queer children or, you know, queer children that are coming out.

And it is.

I can't even emphasize how powerful that relationship is for a child and how courageous a child has to be to come out, how terrifying it is in terms of the rejection that could happen and to really honor that as being one of the most beautiful experiences that you could ever have with your child in terms of bonding.

Right.

I mean, so we're so lucky.

Yeah, it's.

It's an honor.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, because 1,000% like the courage that it takes.

And I didn't realize that at the time.

You know, I mean, this is something that has been a.

In hindsight or in retrospect, as I've learned things.

But, you know, when.

By the time that your child shares this information with you, this is something they have been thinking about and knowing about themselves for a long time.

Yeah.

And already all of that stuff that's been built up.

Right.

Already going, like, it's already stirring in there.

So the way that we respond in the moment and in those first moments is really important.

Yes, it really is.

And that's why I think it's important for parents, if they suspect that their children are queer, to become educated about what it is to be queer.

When I came out to my mother, she was really brilliant.

When I came out to her, I have an amazing mother.

But after I told her, and I was very emotional about it because I knew that she would.

I was afraid she'd be disappointed in me.

I was afraid that she'd be disappointed about, you know, the wife that I might have and the children and the life that she had dreamed for me.

And she said, you know, David, I don't know very much about what it is to be gay.

I don't think I know anyone who's gay.

But all I know is that I love you and I'm going to learn.

And she joined PFLAG on her own and she did her own research.

And from that moment, we had a conversation about it that's continued on all of these years.

And over time, she became more educated and had more experience around queer life.

And so whatever homophobia that she had, just based on her limited experience, the answer to homophobia is education and knowledge.

So when we say, as a queer person, that there's so much ignorance out there and we call people ignorant, I really mean it in a real way.

It's like when you grow up in a small town, you are ignorant to that from lack of experience and knowledge.

If I hadn't been gay, I would have been homophobic like my parents, because that's the environment that I came from.

So the give and take in the relationship between the parent and the child is that the child has compassion for the parent and the parent has compassion for the child in terms of what's happening.

Right, Right.

And it's very much that, like, recognizing the humanity in each other.

Right.

Just being human.

And I think so many times, you know, coming from the parent point of view, like, parents are expected to be perfect, like there's this expectation that parents are not going to mess up.

We're not going to make everything that we ever suggest or say is going to be the, you know, whatever, the very best thing.

Well, it's not right.

And being able to just recognize that about yourself, like, give yourself some grace and be that, you know, it's super vulnerable.

But putting yourself in that vulnerable position with your kids and being like, look, I don't know everything I want to learn, but I am going to mess up.

So I need for you to be patient with me as I learn, as I met.

And when I do mess up, please tell me.

Yeah.

If I say something that's wrong, tell me, because that's the only way that I'm going to learn.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And being in that dialogue and keeping it open and continuing the conversation.

I was actually just speaking with a gentleman today who came out to his parents, and then they never spoke about it again.

It was a taboo topic.

So that really limited his relationship with them in the future because he just goes on holidays, they have superficial conversation.

He doesn't really.

They haven't grown and they don't know each other the way that they could in the relationship if there was that openness, which is really tragic.

Yeah.

Really, really tragic.

Yeah.

And I always think, and I think, you know, you kind of go through the stages of grief when dealing with something like that.

Like, I'm sure this.

This young person is or has or, you know, will be where you kind of hope.

Right.

There's that hope.

And I'm going to keep trying.

And then you realize, and you're like.

And you're angry then because you're thinking, these are my parents.

Yeah.

Their child.

Right.

And then you get to the place where you're, like, sad for them because they're missing out on so much.

Yeah, they're missing out on so much.

I mean, the joy alone that they're missing out on.

I always think, oh, my gosh, that's just so tragic.

It is.

It is really tragic.

And that's why by becoming more educated and finding support groups like what you're doing here, finding a place to be in conversation and to really begin to address the inner fears that parents have for their children being queer, which is very natural, I'm sure, that you might have experienced this, that the first thought you might have had is like, is he going to get bullied?

Is he going to be rejected?

How is it going to affect his life?

Will he be limited in some way because of it?

And what kind of Pain will.

Would.

Is he going through or will he go through in his life?

And when parents have a lot of fear that they haven't processed that way, then in terms of who they are energetically when their child comes out to them, when you bring your own fear into the equation of your vulnerable child coming out, then you're sort of taking away that experience from them and you're shadowing it with fear and with doubt.

So the most important thing, I really think is in terms of holding the space when a parent has done their work and is feeling comfortable with their own fears about it, with their own homophobia, with their own judgments about it, and get that and work on that part of it.

The more that a parent can just show up and not have to really say anything, but maybe just ask questions about their experience and what it's been like and just hold the space for them with love, that that's exactly what a child needs.

Because they're afraid that there's going to be.

They're going to be interrogated, that they're going to be.

All of the fear is going to come out in these questions that's going to pull the child further back and away in his coming out moment.

Because the coming out moment is for the kid.

It's not for the parents.

It's one of the most important things the child will do in their relationship with you.

And it can be the catalyst for a beautiful, deep and fulfilling relationship by.

In that moment.

Yes.

Oh, my goodness, yes.

And I will say my only caveat for that is that if you do mess it up, which many of us have, I mean, we messed it up in the sense that we weren't prepared, we didn't know.

And so we asked the dumb questions like, are you sure?

Right.

Like, we still cannot even believe we asked that question.

And we were not educated, we did not understand.

So we asked a lot of questions that now I know and like, to your point exactly.

Are questions that need to be asked.

To.

Therapist or when you're in a P.

FLAG meeting or to someone like me or to you.

And that's where you learn and that's where you process all of this so that you can then come into this space like you were just saying, and just be curious.

Right.

Like I want to hear what you have to say and then kind of take all of that.

Right?

Yeah.

And creating that space once we learned how to do that.

Right.

Was so fascinating.

And not just for, you know, our son who was coming out at the time, but then for his siblings as well, and the whole family experience.

Right.

Like it shifts the entire energy of the family.

Yeah.

And I think a piece of that too for parents is you don't have to be perfect.

Exactly.

Don't be perfect.

Because that's just no fun.

Right.

And.

Right.

And it limits you in the connection that you can have with your child and your children, the connection you can have with your partner that you can have with other humans in your life.

It just takes away so much joy.

Yeah.

And to maintain some sense of humor about yourself and your relationship and it doesn't have to be so incredibly serious and heavy.

There can be some levity with it as well, which I think is really helpful.

Well, it is just cutting yourself some slack.

Yeah.

And realizing that you are going to mess up like you just are.

Exactly.

But then it's a conversation.

It's a conversation that will go on and on.

And as a 55 year old man, in retrospect, and just as I said, watching the way that my relationship developed with both of my parents, I, you know, it blew my mind.

It blew my mind that my partner was then in the weddings of my sisters and in the family picture.

And you know, just as we grew, you know, it just became just absolutely normal that I'm gay and that I, you know, have a partner.

And I didn't expect that.

You know, I was really, I was blown away by that.

I didn't know that that was even going to be a possibility in terms of their deeper acceptance and love for me.

I mean that is such a really like such an incredible testament especially for our generation.

Right.

Like for our parents generation.

And to be able to.

And coming from a Catholic background which, you know, has all of its own stuff.

Just from a Protestant like, you know, really conservative Protestant background.

Right.

Like there's, there's law stuff that comes with that.

So being able to hear you and see you and say, okay, like we're gonna totally figure this out.

And that's over here.

Right?

Yeah.

And we were talking about this a little bit before.

You don't have to be part of that.

I can totally understand why that just doesn't work for you anymore.

Right.

Right.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah.

Bravo.

Bravo to your parents.

Yeah.

I was lucky.

My dad was a little tougher.

He was really.

His biggest fear was that I would be alone.

And he didn't.

He just saw it as being.

And he just said, you need to have a woman.

You need to have a woman.

He used to always give me this speech that I called man needs a woman speech at Dinner, like after dinner, he'd be like, if I didn't have your mom, I'd have another woman.

And you need to have a woman.

And when I came out to him, I was talking to my mom because I already come out to her.

And he had been talking to my sisters, asking if they thought that I was gay.

And he kept doing the man needs a woman speech, until one day he said, so David, why is it that you aren't dating women?

And I said, it's because I'm gay.

And he cried.

He cried harder than I've ever seen him cry.

Like, he sobbed because he was.

But I realized it was because he was afraid for me.

And I realized it was because he loved me.

It wasn't that he was rejecting me.

It was that he was afraid of what my what.

How my life would be harmed by it, by the opportunities that I might not have, by the rejection that I would experience, by the pain of what it would be.

And that is something else that my mom said to me when I came out, because I came out in like my senior year of college and she just grabbed my hand and she said, I'm so sorry that you had to go through all of that alone.

And that was so powerful, you know, And I didn't even think about that.

But it's like I was completely alone in it for a long time and just in my own mind about it.

And it's terrifying to live with that duality.

It's terrifying to think like there's something about me that inherently people will reject that, you know, it's an awful feeling to live in that duality.

And that's why coming out.

So important.

Yes, so important.

And why it's really important also to understand, understand what is going on and to see why that potentially can lead to maladaptive coping mechanisms.

Right.

Like any kind of substance use or abuse, any kind of self harm, you know, dangerous online behaviors.

Right.

Like there's a lot of different pieces to that that are really important to understand why that's going on and because I think, you know, quite common right now is to see kids, you know, who do are, who are coming out in high school, but they've known since middle school, right?

So they've known since they were like 12 or 13, but they haven't said anything and they didn't understand exactly what they knew.

So they were going through this whole.

When it.

Those ages are such horrible ages to begin with, right?

Like just the cult developmental stages.

And then you add like that extra layer of shame yes.

Right.

I mean, down to the whole shame piece.

And they're sitting in that by themselves for these years.

And you think.

I mean, you know, kind of like, I feel the same way as your mom.

I was like, I'm so sorry you were alone those years, and just, you know, we had no idea.

Right.

Well, I think that.

Yeah, I think that she sort of.

She kind of innately knew that, but she didn't know exactly how to frame it or what it was in her experience.

Yeah, she really.

She surprised me so much with her graciousness around all of it.

We did have conversations about whether she did tell me that she was saddened by the wife and children that I would never have, like, letting that go.

And we processed that, which is definitely a thought that I think a lot of parents have.

And she remained incredibly open and curious.

And we just had this really.

We've developed this banter where there's just an open.

It's just part of the way that we converse.

It deepened our relationship so much.

Yes.

Yeah.

Right.

It's the coolest thing ever.

Yeah.

I mean, I just.

It's such an opportunity for bonding and for.

To get closer.

I mean, and the things that it is.

I mean, and I'm sure for you, like, you felt like you could just talk to her.

Right.

And then there wasn't going to be a judgment.

There wasn't going to be any kind of like, well, you should.

You know, none of the should was going on.

And.

And I.

I feel that way with Connor whenever, you know, he's telling me things, and I think I'm so lucky.

Like.

Right.

Yeah.

Well, that's.

That's a lot of information.

Yeah.

I think that one of the.

Would take any day, Right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think that one of the things.

One of the things to recognize is that I think that when.

When a parent believes, or even a child believes that it's.

It's that your sexuality is a choice that really confuses things a lot.

Instead of recognizing that I am innately gay in the same way that you're innately straight.

And I even brought that to my mom's attention because I said, mom, imagine if you lived in a world where everybody was saying, becky, you need to settle down with a nice woman and have a family, and you need to.

That's what you need to be doing.

What would that feel like to you?

And she thought about it for a few minutes and she just.

She said, I can't even imagine that.

And I said, it's exactly how it feels.

For me, I'm innately gay.

I feel that I've always been gay.

It's just a part of who I am.

And as a straight person, we don't have a moment where.

Where we're like, I identify as straight, I'm coming out, I'm straight.

It's just assumed that someone is straight.

Right.

So when we can get rid.

As a parent, when you can begin to just accept the fact that your child is innately who they are, then we're not even thinking about it being something that can be changed, that it can be something that could be cured or fixed or, you know, you can just allow it to be.

Just accept exactly what it is in that moment.

And even if it is some sort of a phase or maybe that person is bisexual or they're on a journey of discovery and sexuality is incredibly fluid.

I always say people are what they say they are.

Just stay with them.

They can identify any way they want.

They can change their mind, they can explore, they can experiment.

What they say they are is what they are.

And we just have to honor and acknowledge that as just being their truth.

Right, right, exactly.

And not freak out.

Right.

I mean, there's.

There's that potential when there is fluidity involved to, like, freak out and be like, but I need.

I need to know something.

Right?

Well.

And we don't.

And we get to be uncomfortable.

If that makes you uncomfortable, then that's.

You just get to be uncomfortable.

Exactly.

Yeah.

That is her journey.

Right.

That's there.

And there's nothing wrong with it.

And I think that's what's really hard to wrap your head around.

We don't need boxes.

Right.

They don't have to check a box.

And that's okay, Right, Right, right.

And being sitting in that uncomfortable space where you're just like, I just don't know.

That's actually really good.

Like, it's.

Because to me, that's always like, this is a sign of incredible growth.

So just like, be like, I'm.

I am growing right now.

Yeah, yeah.

Comfortable.

But I'm growing.

And that it's okay for it to be uncomfortable and it's okay for it to be.

To just.

It doesn't mean that you're doing anything wrong.

It doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with that.

It's just.

You're experiencing it as well.

And the more that a person can be transparent as a parent with their child in that way, the more it encourages the child to be more honest about their experience as well.

Exactly, exactly.

And I think just kind of.

This just popped into my head, but kind of at the end of the day, because I think parents are always like, well, then what can I do?

Right?

If we're.

If we're having all of this kind of open flowiness, right?

The one thing, right, we can't control our kids.

So that's.

Let's just like put that out there.

We've never been able to control them.

That is just a fallacy, something that's made up.

What we can do is let them know what their choices are.

And this not being a choice, but I mean.

And as they live their life, right, we can say, we are.

We here's safety.

We worry about your safety.

We want you to be safe.

We want you to be happy.

And instead of saying, well, don't do this, don't do this, don't do this, don't do this.

Here are all the choices, right?

Here are all the choices you have in all of these situations.

Let's talk about it.

And then that's empowering for them, and that's taking the focus off, because I think another thing, and I'm not.

I don't know if I'd love to hear what you think about this, but that when it's not a child, but anyone comes out, right?

That is.

The full focus is, I am gay or I am bisexual or whatever you're coming out as.

And that's like, that's who I am.

That's the 100% identity.

When it's really not.

It's like, that's a piece of who you are.

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

Just like being straight is a piece of who I am.

Yes.

And so getting to that place of being able to have all these other conversations around it and just be, you know, we're going to talk about these, all these other things, right?

Because yes, this does.

These shifts choices that you have out in the world, Right.

And this does.

But it's a shift.

It's not exactly.

And it really recognizes that we as human beings are more similar than we are different.

And sometimes with sexuality and sexual identification, that difference makes us feel like we're in a completely different tribe.

And that's why we move to gay neighborhoods and surround ourselves with only gay people sometimes in the beginning is just to kind of find our tribe and find our place.

What I've realized in my journey, you know, and I did that right away because when I, When I, you know, in the late 80s, when I moved to Chicago, I did.

There was no mentorship, there was no social Media.

I didn't even know what gay life was.

So I really moved to the city to discover myself and surround myself by my.

With my peers and discover what that was all about.

But as I grew.

As I grew up and I became to love and accept myself more, I came to see more and more in my relationships with straight men, straight women, gay men, people of all different, you know, orientations that it doesn't matter as much.

What matters is what we have in common.

We have way more in common than just who we sleep with and who we are sexually, but because there's such a spotlight that's put on the sexual part of it, and that's where morality also comes into it, where it's sort of like the big thing that comes in my lives all the time is like, you're sinning, you need to repent.

And there's an argument that's always being made about whether the morality of your sexuality, which I think is true in the heterosexual world too.

My sisters both said they felt very guilty being Catholic and their sexual exploration as younger people.

It's sort of a double whammy then, when you're a queer person.

But to the degree that the religion is a part of the family unit can be.

The degree that there's a difficulty in conflict with parents in terms of what they believe, that God is condemning their child to hell and that it's their responsibility to also condemn because of the religion, that those things have to be put in check as well.

Right.

Well, that's just.

That's another layer.

It's a big layer.

It is.

It's a huge one.

And that.

That's actually one of the most difficult.

I would say that religion is one of the biggest reasons why parents ostracize children who come out and send them on the street.

Because of the religion.

Religion and.

For sure.

Yeah.

Which.

I mean, holy cow.

I just.

I don't have words.

I mean, the words.

It is still very difficult for me, having grown up in that environment, to think that anyone could do that.

Yeah.

To a child.

To their child, who has, like, you know, told them, like, the most personal thing about themselves.

Right.

And shared something that was so difficult to share.

And then to be, you know, thrown out or ostracized or, you know, you name the terrible stories.

You've heard many of them.

Yes.

I just recently was working with a client who was a Mormon.

He grew up Mormon.

And when he came out to his parents, they.

Their community did a shunning ceremony where they put him in the center of A circle.

And they all were standing around him, and they at the same time turned their backs on him, and they opened the circle and he left, and he.

He never saw any of them again.

His entire family and the entire community.

And he was 17 years old, and he had to find his own way.

And as a result of the shame of that and losing your whole community at that age, he became really involved in alcohol and drug usage, and he tried to kill himself a couple of times.

He was in such a deep sense of shame and hopelessness as a result of the isolation that he felt around his sexuality and being rejected, that it almost cost him his life.

It's a miracle it did.

I know.

It's like we're.

You know, he didn't have any resources or anything.

He was just on the street.

It's just.

I can't even imagine that.

I cannot even.

I just.

That's why I cry all the time.

I hear all these stories.

Yeah.

It's awful.

Can you imagine?

I just can't.

Like, what makes one do that?

Right.

Yeah, I know.

It has to do with this deeper fear within the world of individual differences, which is also the same root as racism and ethnocentrism, where we're just sort of.

We are holding onto the majority rules, and this is how things are.

And anything that deviates from that is feared, and it's considered to be a threat to our life in some way, because it's different.

And that's the tragedy.

And yet, for people, like I said before, who don't have experience with it, I can understand where the homophobia comes from or who grow up in religions where they believe that.

It's just that as a parent, it's time to.

To step beyond that religion and those paradigms, and it is an opportunity for a parent to grow and to really deconstruct their own religion and thought about things, because I don't think Jesus would be into that at all.

That rejection.

Right.

He's like this loving hippie who's, like, all about love and peace and, you know, with.

And then all of the judgment and the pain and the guilt and the shame that's caused in.

In his name through religion.

It's like.

He'd be pissed.

Yeah.

You would literally.

He would just be.

I mean, I'm sad.

Heartbroken.

Yeah.

I do not even believe y'all got that out of what that said.

Right.

Like reading that and getting this.

Exactly, exactly, exactly.

It's extraordinary.

And he would come and he would come back and like, to rebrand Himself.

And then he.

He would be rejected by the Christian world again, because he would be an outsider hippie again.

Right.

Again, 100%.

He would be like flying the rainbow flag right along.

Yep, exactly.

He would.

Oh, my goodness.

It is so true.

Yeah, well, you know, it is one of those moments.

You know, we.

We all have, like a moment in our life.

Right.

That is a life changing moment.

It has the potential to be a life changing moment.

Yeah.

And for the good, they're the bad ones too.

But for the good.

And this is one of them.

Yep.

Your child comes out to you.

You have a choice in that moment.

Yeah.

What is the choice going to be?

Yeah, exactly.

And I think that one thing that you hit home a couple of times that I think is so important is that as a parent, you're a human being and you do have your own feelings and you might not do it exactly right.

But it's really about just having the intention of love and holding the space for your child and being in that conversation and letting them know that you're there.

You know what I mean?

I think that the one thing that a parent could ask a child is, in what way can I support you?

What is it that you need from me?

I'm 100% here, and I want you to tell me what it is that you could use from me.

And then that gives the child the power to.

To set the boundaries or to talk about what they want to talk about or ask the questions.

And I think that it can be really helpful.

Absolutely, absolutely.

And it's also, you know, totally okay to just say, you know, I really love you and I need a minute.

Yeah.

Yeah, I need it.

Yeah.

Or I just, you know, let me.

I need to, like, kind of, you know, I love you and.

And I need to process.

And it's okay to process.

It's okay to say, I need.

I need 24 hours, you know, especially, you know, if it's.

If it's new and it's unexpected, you know.

Yes.

I mean, absolutely.

So just kind of.

I think the more we put that out there, like, we just keep putting it out there.

That is okay.

Exactly.

But the parents that are listening to this show right now, to this podcast, are obviously taking a step in wanting to bridge that.

So there's already that.

That desire to make this.

To make this smooth.

To make this smooth, you know, for their child and for themselves, but it will never be perfect.

And it's just part of the ebb and flow of the relationship, but it can just continue.

It's like keeping that conversation alive and open is what it's all about.

And it will evolve.

Right?

Right.

Exactly.

Exactly.

So I would love if you could.

I have my final question for you that I love to ask, which is.

And you have your choice, or you can do both.

Words of wisdom for a young person coming out or words of wisdom for a parent of a child coming out.

I actually think for both that some sense of preparation, if it's possible, is absolutely important for a child.

I would say find a support group, find other allies, other friends who are queer, look for support online and become more comfortable with who you are and begin to accept yourself in that journey.

Because the more that you can embody your truth and be who you are, and the moment that you come out to your parents, the easier it will be for them when they see that you're happy and that you're feeling comfortable with who you are, the easier it will be for them and the easier it will be for you in terms of.

But that you don't have to do it right away.

You don't have to feel rushed into it to take your time.

And especially if you're in a place where you feel like you could be rejected or kicked out of the house, you have to think about your safety first.

That might meet.

That you come out a little bit later, like when you're in college.

But taking the time to prepare and recognizing that coming out is for you, it's not for your parents, it's for you to be your authentic self so there isn't a duality of gay me and straight me where you don't have to play this game of being two different people.

And to the parents, I would say in the same way that if you have an opportunity to be prepared to learn as much as you can about queer life and queer people and meet some queer friends maybe and ask questions and become involved in that community and to make sure that you're not leading with your fear as your child comes out, that you're not leading with your own homophobia and that you have those things in check if you have time to process that.

Because the more of a clean slate that you can bring for your child in terms of this open how can I support you?

And asking questions that will not create a defensiveness in your child, but just to gain more information and to learn more about their experience and the difficulties of their experience, the better.

But that being said, you know, we arrive at it where we arrive at it, and it doesn't work out that perfectly all the Time.

Right.

And there will always be mistakes.

Things happen.

We're human beings.

But as long as we can keep the conversation open and it doesn't get shut down, that's the most important part.

Because as a 55 year old man, the relationship that I developed with my parents, like I said, was beyond, I think, what it would have been if I'd been straight.

Because it really created this sense of vulnerability in sharing with both my mom and dad and was a real testament to their love for me.

Even being Catholic, even being homophobic or having very limited experience, that their capacity to grow and evolve because of their love for me was absolutely profound.

I think that's a beautiful place to end.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thank you so much for being here.

Absolutely.

It was wonderful to talk to you.

I was really looking forward to it.

I think this work is incredibly important because like I said in the beginning, parents can't underestimate how incredibly powerful that moment is when the child comes out and when you can be in an open space of love and support.

You're really helping your child on their journey by having that sense of love and support.

It's everything.

It's so important.

It really is.

I mean, it really is.

So thank you and thank you for reiterating that.

Just, I'm so grateful for you and grateful for your work as well.

Thank you.

And I will list all of your information in my show notes so people can find you online, so people can find you on TikTok.

TikTok's my main.

My main place right now.

Go to TikTok.

Yeah.

I'm coach Devorah on TikTok.

So you can just find me there and come to my lives and we'll talk.

I'd love to hear about any of the things that are happening out there for you parents.

You're more than welcome in my lives.

And you do lives daily.

Correct.

Perfect.

Yeah.

Wonderful.

Yeah.

All right.

Thank you.

Thank you, Heather.

It's good to meet you.

You as well.

Thanks so much for joining me today.

If you enjoyed today's episode, I would be so, so grateful.

For a rating or a review, click on the link in the show notes or go to my website, chrysalismama.com to stay up to date on my latest resources as well as to learn how you can work with me.

Please share this podcast with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone.

And remember to just breathe, breathe.

Until next time.