1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:07,480 Brian: with Offball, you don't want to get into original reporting. 2 00:00:07,490 --> 00:00:08,820 It's, this is not it. 3 00:00:08,830 --> 00:00:11,540 It's, it's about smart curation. 4 00:00:11,940 --> 00:00:12,340 Adam: yeah. 5 00:00:12,740 --> 00:00:16,410 And it's also, we're not going to cover anything controversial or negative. 6 00:00:16,410 --> 00:00:18,766 because we're not, journalism, we're entertainment. 7 00:00:18,776 --> 00:00:21,966 We're a fun place to come and see all the cool things that you want to read about. 8 00:00:21,966 --> 00:00:23,926 it's meant to be a lean back experience. 9 00:00:23,986 --> 00:00:24,186 Brian: Okay. 10 00:00:24,186 --> 00:00:25,056 So no politics. 11 00:00:25,456 --> 00:00:25,796 Adam: no. 12 00:00:25,796 --> 00:00:26,656 there's a place for that. 13 00:00:26,666 --> 00:00:35,916 you remember that feeling we told you about when you go to Twitter and you feel terrible after, like, I would like to build something that when you go to it, you actually feel good after it was fun. 14 00:00:35,916 --> 00:00:36,406 It was 15 00:00:36,806 --> 00:00:37,406 enjoyable. 16 00:00:37,806 --> 00:00:39,591 Brian: So why, Why do you use humans? 17 00:00:39,591 --> 00:00:40,611 Why don't you use robots? 18 00:00:40,801 --> 00:00:41,661 It sounds like a job for 19 00:00:41,811 --> 00:00:42,411 Adam: That's not you. 20 00:00:42,421 --> 00:00:42,671 Did you? 21 00:00:42,711 --> 00:00:44,221 I mean, I, I, I mean, 22 00:00:45,011 --> 00:00:45,201 Brian: Is that a 23 00:00:45,271 --> 00:00:46,541 Adam: that's the easiest question ever. 24 00:00:46,541 --> 00:00:49,441 I, I still have yet to see a robot have taste 25 00:00:59,507 --> 00:01:00,737 Brian: Welcome to The Rebooting Show. 26 00:01:00,737 --> 00:01:01,767 I'm Brian Morrissey. 27 00:01:01,967 --> 00:01:06,287 I can fall into a trap sometimes of gravitating to the parts of the media business that are in retreat. 28 00:01:06,557 --> 00:01:09,287 And, and let's be real, many parts of it are in retreat. 29 00:01:09,647 --> 00:01:13,417 but I think that sometimes obscures the fact that the media business overall is growing. 30 00:01:13,557 --> 00:01:17,707 only that growth is often shifting to different places with different models. 31 00:01:18,107 --> 00:01:24,487 the economic value of the news business, for instance, is shifting, but I can't think of a time when there was more news content. 32 00:01:24,897 --> 00:01:25,467 if only the most. 33 00:01:25,822 --> 00:01:28,502 Profitable parts tend to be outside of news reporting. 34 00:01:28,902 --> 00:01:33,022 there are plenty of podcasts with great businesses downstream of news reporting. 35 00:01:33,422 --> 00:01:39,142 the sports media industry is to me fascinating because it is going through a similar reorientation. 36 00:01:39,542 --> 00:01:41,362 Sports media has never. 37 00:01:41,702 --> 00:01:44,172 Been in more demand and there's never been more of it. 38 00:01:44,572 --> 00:01:52,052 I think back to when I was a sports obsessed kid in the 1980s and the sheer volume and variety of sports content now is shocking. 39 00:01:52,232 --> 00:01:55,242 I can get dozens of podcasts on the Eagles alone. 40 00:01:55,402 --> 00:02:01,212 I mean, I can watch experts break down specific plays and explain why they worked or why they didn't work. 41 00:02:01,212 --> 00:02:08,917 I mean, teams themselves have media arms that pump out an amazing amount of content and hard knocks takes you inside the media arms. 42 00:02:09,187 --> 00:02:10,747 Discussions that the teams have. 43 00:02:10,747 --> 00:02:15,367 I mean, I can hear John Mara's dread at losing Saquon Barkley to the Eagles. 44 00:02:15,767 --> 00:02:29,817 Athletes themselves are media entities and the sports media business overall has broken out from being a category itself to being one that, that stretches across many different categories, business, culture, music, fashion. 45 00:02:30,217 --> 00:02:32,017 and I think in the atomization of everything. 46 00:02:32,417 --> 00:02:34,067 Sports is something of a last bastion. 47 00:02:34,457 --> 00:02:36,227 it even acts as a unifier, really. 48 00:02:36,557 --> 00:02:42,687 I mean, I spent the weekend in the Philadelphia area, and as a battleground state, you are subjected to endless political ads. 49 00:02:42,777 --> 00:02:48,087 Billboards along the Pennsylvania turnpike, I noticed, tend to alternate between Trump and Harris. 50 00:02:48,127 --> 00:02:49,747 I mean, it's inescapable. 51 00:02:49,837 --> 00:02:53,637 I mean, I really pity those of you in those seven states, but I'll tell you this. 52 00:02:53,647 --> 00:02:55,867 I mean, all that falls away when it comes to the Eagles. 53 00:02:56,327 --> 00:03:00,277 And that is why I think why sports is so valued right now. 54 00:03:00,287 --> 00:03:03,577 I mean, they're one of the last unifying and shared experiences we have left. 55 00:03:03,917 --> 00:03:07,697 So we've all retreated into some digital ghettos to experience customized realities. 56 00:03:08,077 --> 00:03:09,887 I can't see how AI doesn't make that worse. 57 00:03:10,287 --> 00:03:18,437 So this week I spoke with Adam Mendelsohn, who has for a long time operated at this nexus between sports, media, business, and culture. 58 00:03:18,437 --> 00:03:24,497 I mean, Adam is a long time advisor to LeBron James and LeBron's business partner, Maverick Carter. 59 00:03:24,897 --> 00:03:28,787 Adam is a communications advisor to many athletes and many companies. 60 00:03:28,837 --> 00:03:32,247 and he's recently, Rolled out his own sports platform called off ball. 61 00:03:32,358 --> 00:03:39,768 and it's something of a throwback to a pre algorithmic era when the drudge report and other curators reign supreme instead of algorithms. 62 00:03:39,798 --> 00:03:45,158 And I'm a big believer in things moving in a pendulum, we tend to have, you know, overreactions. 63 00:03:45,198 --> 00:03:46,788 And then we course correct. 64 00:03:46,838 --> 00:03:49,184 And, momentum keeps going forward. 65 00:03:49,194 --> 00:03:52,044 But I think we're in store for a recalibration right now. 66 00:03:52,444 --> 00:03:56,834 Is the downsides of this kind of algorithmic dominance are acutely felt. 67 00:03:57,234 --> 00:04:00,644 and I think Adam has a really good viewpoint on that because of his background. 68 00:04:00,974 --> 00:04:06,864 So we discussed the changes to the sports media landscape, including why LeBron's widely panned, show the decision. 69 00:04:07,264 --> 00:04:12,568 was actually ahead of its time, I go into my own little mini rant about why sports betting was a major mistake. 70 00:04:12,948 --> 00:04:14,818 It's my most deeply held boomer position. 71 00:04:15,171 --> 00:04:19,364 Hope you enjoyed this conversation, and also please leave this podcast a rating or review, wherever you get it. 72 00:04:19,774 --> 00:04:20,474 Always helps. 73 00:04:20,584 --> 00:04:24,094 and I'd also love to hear feedback on the type of guests that you enjoy hearing from the most. 74 00:04:24,246 --> 00:04:30,076 my current inclination Is the focus more on what's working in the media business versus having people discuss the stuff that's wrong. 75 00:04:30,154 --> 00:04:31,124 that can become a bit of a drag. 76 00:04:31,385 --> 00:04:32,765 Anyway, here's my conversation with Adam. 77 00:04:38,895 --> 00:04:41,853 Adam, thank you so much for, for joining, joining me. 78 00:04:41,853 --> 00:04:42,753 I, I'm told. 79 00:04:42,793 --> 00:04:43,553 Adam: Thank you for having 80 00:04:43,593 --> 00:04:46,563 Brian: by, I'm told by sources, this is your first ever podcast. 81 00:04:46,963 --> 00:04:47,003 Adam: you. 82 00:04:47,003 --> 00:04:47,903 This is my first podcast. 83 00:04:47,943 --> 00:04:51,593 I, I, I've deliberately tried to be, uh, behind the scenes my whole career. 84 00:04:51,593 --> 00:04:55,559 And so, yeah, this is my first podcast, but it's also, you know, I, launching something. 85 00:04:55,559 --> 00:04:59,799 I felt like I didn't want to go out and talk to a lot of people, but I wanted to talk to a few people. 86 00:04:59,799 --> 00:05:01,739 And so I'm, I'm excited to be on with you. 87 00:05:02,139 --> 00:05:02,829 Brian: Oh, okay, good. 88 00:05:02,859 --> 00:05:04,929 Well, I was, I thought you were going to be like, but they weren't available. 89 00:05:05,589 --> 00:05:06,119 That old joke. 90 00:05:06,319 --> 00:05:07,159 Adam: No, no, no. 91 00:05:07,744 --> 00:05:18,294 No, like, you know, like again, this is when you're, when you're doing something, you know, you realize you and I, look, you and I have known each other a long time, you realize there's, and this gets to actually the sort of conversation we're gonna have. 92 00:05:18,304 --> 00:05:21,344 Like there's just media now that reaches a certain constituency. 93 00:05:21,374 --> 00:05:22,434 And I think when you. 94 00:05:22,834 --> 00:05:32,334 And as someone who spent his career working on communications and how people reach different audiences, I think a lot of now, a lot now about how different people reach different. 95 00:05:32,334 --> 00:05:35,154 I mean, your newsletter this morning was exactly that point. 96 00:05:35,194 --> 00:05:41,824 It was, it was about how, you know, the all in podcast or Lex Friedman are creating new models of, of media. 97 00:05:41,834 --> 00:05:44,194 And I think that's, that is a hundred percent where I think it is. 98 00:05:44,194 --> 00:05:45,804 And I think that's true for you and the rebooting. 99 00:05:45,834 --> 00:05:50,224 I think that you know, when I think about what we built, I think about your audience a lot. 100 00:05:50,624 --> 00:05:50,854 Brian: Yeah. 101 00:05:50,994 --> 00:05:51,324 All right. 102 00:05:51,354 --> 00:05:51,654 Cool. 103 00:05:51,744 --> 00:05:58,474 Well, first of all, I think there's a lot of people who know you, who, who listened to this podcast, but some people don't and they should, I don't know. 104 00:05:58,504 --> 00:06:02,124 I was joking with you before, like I consider you an operative, right? 105 00:06:02,124 --> 00:06:03,714 So you got your start in politics, 106 00:06:03,874 --> 00:06:06,574 Adam: Operator or operator or operative? 107 00:06:06,624 --> 00:06:09,734 Brian: No, now you're an operator, but I think of you as like an operator. 108 00:06:09,744 --> 00:06:11,044 You're a behind the scenes guy. 109 00:06:11,444 --> 00:06:12,194 Adam: yeah, I mean, look, 110 00:06:12,194 --> 00:06:15,384 Brian: do you describe what you do when you go to like, you know, dinner party? 111 00:06:15,394 --> 00:06:22,864 Because you advise LeBron and, and, and Rich Paul, and you've got, you've popped up on ESPN stories. 112 00:06:22,864 --> 00:06:25,294 I always like sometimes I'm like, Oh my God, there's Adam. 113 00:06:25,694 --> 00:06:26,414 Adam: yeah, yeah, yeah. 114 00:06:26,434 --> 00:06:30,493 I mean, look, I, I think about myself as a media and communications professional. 115 00:06:30,723 --> 00:06:35,553 I think that, you know, the long story is I, I started my career in politics. 116 00:06:35,613 --> 00:06:38,443 my last political jobs with Arnold Schwarzenegger when he was governor. 117 00:06:38,843 --> 00:06:41,453 and I, you know, I, I thought I wanted to be Toby Ziegler. 118 00:06:41,453 --> 00:06:44,183 I thought I wanted to be like, you know, the white house communications director. 119 00:06:44,583 --> 00:06:47,823 and then when I got into politics, I realized that I didn't I didn't like politics. 120 00:06:47,823 --> 00:06:54,419 I, I found it to be, you know, Well, I guess what, what everybody's seeing now, I, I sort of found politics to be, many years ago. 121 00:06:54,419 --> 00:06:57,359 And so after working for Arnold, Arnold was incredible. 122 00:06:57,359 --> 00:07:01,379 And he exposed me to entertainment and culture and business. 123 00:07:01,379 --> 00:07:07,552 And I realized I wanted to do media and communications, but I wanted to do it in, in culture and business, not in politics. 124 00:07:07,562 --> 00:07:10,802 So I really started at that point, figuring out what that looks like. 125 00:07:10,832 --> 00:07:15,911 And then, by the grace of God, LeBron James famously had the decision, and. 126 00:07:16,301 --> 00:07:18,461 After the decision, he was trying to think about a 127 00:07:18,511 --> 00:07:19,901 Brian: Wait, did you do the decision? 128 00:07:20,211 --> 00:07:21,461 Adam: how I came in after 129 00:07:22,061 --> 00:07:22,251 Brian: Okay. 130 00:07:22,851 --> 00:07:28,311 Adam: he was, you know, he was, he was thinking about how to, he was thinking about meeting communications different as LeBron is apt to do. 131 00:07:28,311 --> 00:07:32,631 LeBron thinks about everything different, and his, I got introduced to LeBron by Paul Wachter. 132 00:07:33,031 --> 00:07:36,381 who's his long time partner and, and has done all of his business deals. 133 00:07:36,771 --> 00:07:42,041 Paul introduced me to Maverick Carter and, built a relationship with them and, and have been with LeBron ever since. 134 00:07:42,071 --> 00:07:47,311 So was with him for 12, I've been with him 12 years, and worked with him and Maverick on a number of different things. 135 00:07:47,361 --> 00:07:52,121 And then, so while I've been working with him, I was, I was doing a bunch of advisory work, working with CEOs. 136 00:07:52,121 --> 00:07:55,191 This is sort of the internet, I guess, 2. 137 00:07:55,191 --> 00:07:58,401 0 era, the kind of Uber, Airbnb, rise of consumer internet. 138 00:07:58,801 --> 00:08:12,851 was doing a lot of work in that space and then, went to TPG, the global private equity company, and at TPG was doing their communications, but more importantly, sort of worked as an operating partner in across their portfolio. 139 00:08:12,851 --> 00:08:17,331 So where there were companies that were having particular communications challenges. 140 00:08:17,731 --> 00:08:26,021 I would drop in and work with them and, and work with the management teams and work with the CEOs and with the head of communications on, on strategies. 141 00:08:26,021 --> 00:08:33,681 And, and that through that, I realized that's what I really loved doing was working with management teams on communications and media, and then started my own company. 142 00:08:33,681 --> 00:08:37,881 So I have a company called Upland workshop started in 2020, started March of 2020. 143 00:08:38,342 --> 00:08:42,673 The first day I, first day I paid myself was, March 1st, 2020. 144 00:08:43,073 --> 00:08:43,883 and that's what we do. 145 00:08:43,893 --> 00:08:45,673 We have a, it's a small advisory business. 146 00:08:46,073 --> 00:08:50,953 and we work with a number of different companies on, and getting back to your original question on their media and communications. 147 00:08:50,953 --> 00:08:54,453 And that, I think the, the most interesting thing is, well, what does that mean? 148 00:08:54,713 --> 00:08:54,963 Right. 149 00:08:54,963 --> 00:08:57,093 What is, what is PR now? 150 00:08:57,093 --> 00:08:58,513 What is communications now? 151 00:08:58,523 --> 00:08:59,643 How are people thinking about it? 152 00:08:59,643 --> 00:09:03,194 And I, I spent all my time thinking about that and working in that space. 153 00:09:03,594 --> 00:09:14,024 Brian: Yeah, so give me your theory of the case because I mean, you have been entwined in, in these worlds of government, sports, media, but, but, you know, media is the nexus. 154 00:09:14,034 --> 00:09:20,084 And like you said, like I wrote today about all in and acquired and how media is not dying. 155 00:09:20,094 --> 00:09:30,784 It is changing and the power is shifting in my view in most areas from a lot of packaged media to a lot of, individuals, for instance, and this is not new. 156 00:09:31,024 --> 00:09:31,534 I think. 157 00:09:31,829 --> 00:09:36,809 It's funny because I asked you about the decision, and for those, some people probably don't even remember the decision. 158 00:09:36,974 --> 00:09:37,814 Adam: No, probably not. 159 00:09:38,264 --> 00:09:38,574 Probably 160 00:09:38,619 --> 00:09:48,200 Brian: but it was, it was a live show that LeBron James did to announce, where he, he ended up going to, taking his talents to South Beach, famously. 161 00:09:48,490 --> 00:09:50,500 and it got completely panned, right? 162 00:09:50,500 --> 00:09:52,700 Because at the time this was very strange. 163 00:09:52,910 --> 00:09:55,750 And if you think about it now, that's going direct. 164 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:56,890 I mean, that, this 165 00:09:56,925 --> 00:09:57,505 Adam: yeah, yeah. 166 00:09:57,540 --> 00:09:58,140 Brian: is like a no. 167 00:09:58,140 --> 00:09:58,490 brainer. 168 00:09:58,500 --> 00:09:59,570 It's not a strange thing. 169 00:09:59,998 --> 00:10:01,518 what you want to control your narrative. 170 00:10:01,918 --> 00:10:04,083 Adam: well, yeah, I mean, sometimes it's control your narrative. 171 00:10:04,083 --> 00:10:05,743 Sometimes it's just a better way to do it. 172 00:10:05,743 --> 00:10:09,973 I mean, I, I, I'm not a fan of like, I'm doing it because it controls my narrative. 173 00:10:09,973 --> 00:10:11,923 I'm, I'm a fan of doing it because it's a better way to reach it. 174 00:10:11,923 --> 00:10:13,922 But, but yeah, sometimes, but to your 175 00:10:14,287 --> 00:10:19,457 Brian: But what is your theory of the case about how media is, is changing and 176 00:10:19,602 --> 00:10:20,592 Adam: well, my theory, 177 00:10:20,787 --> 00:10:21,807 Brian: into what Offball 178 00:10:21,872 --> 00:10:22,362 Adam: sure. 179 00:10:22,413 --> 00:10:28,073 My theory is that there's two things that really matter to an individual, to a company, to an organization. 180 00:10:28,473 --> 00:10:30,803 And there is customer acquisition. 181 00:10:30,913 --> 00:10:34,083 There is, I need you to buy more of my product. 182 00:10:34,473 --> 00:10:38,813 And then there is your corporate narrative or your positioning or your reputation. 183 00:10:39,213 --> 00:10:40,743 And that is, this is who I am. 184 00:10:41,123 --> 00:10:42,293 This is why I matter. 185 00:10:42,343 --> 00:10:44,363 This is why you should pay attention to me. 186 00:10:44,363 --> 00:10:45,213 This is why. 187 00:10:45,603 --> 00:10:47,153 You should invest in me. 188 00:10:47,153 --> 00:10:48,573 This is why you should think about me. 189 00:10:48,573 --> 00:11:04,413 And I think that the world as more and more media as media gets more and more bifurcated and more and more niche, how you manage sort of the difference between customer awareness, customer acquisition, and your narrative and your positioning becomes more and more complicated. 190 00:11:04,423 --> 00:11:06,533 And that's how you have to think about media and communications. 191 00:11:06,933 --> 00:11:07,253 Brian: Okay. 192 00:11:07,433 --> 00:11:10,973 So how, how does that intersect with, with sports, right? 193 00:11:10,973 --> 00:11:25,292 So cause sports and let's just zero into sports because, you know, sports is, is obviously it's, it's been the linchpin of media, but now I think it's been, it's more powerful than ever with its intersections with, with business, with culture. 194 00:11:25,442 --> 00:11:25,922 You know what I mean? 195 00:11:25,922 --> 00:11:33,392 I think about, you know, this is, this is pretty old, but I can remember, you know, when the, the walk to the locker room. 196 00:11:33,792 --> 00:11:36,132 became sort of the run, the runway. 197 00:11:36,722 --> 00:11:45,182 You know, I, I mean, I remember when, when, you know, David Stern was fining the players for, for, for dressing like slobs, like in his view. 198 00:11:45,622 --> 00:11:46,602 that's totally different now. 199 00:11:46,602 --> 00:11:50,292 There's no need to fine people for not looking really good in the NBA. 200 00:11:50,352 --> 00:11:50,992 Adam: No, no. 201 00:11:51,392 --> 00:11:53,662 look, I think there's so many reasons. 202 00:11:54,062 --> 00:11:58,302 Why sports has become so ubiquitous and so important. 203 00:11:58,702 --> 00:12:12,452 And, you know, and I think that everyone is probably had this conversation over a drink, but it's, you know, I, I think sports is now, and, and, and athletes are now what celebrity and music was in a, in a generation before. 204 00:12:12,452 --> 00:12:16,986 And I think that part of it is athletes have really asserted themselves as cultural figures. 205 00:12:17,006 --> 00:12:20,136 I mean, I think LeBron has been one of the leaders in that. 206 00:12:20,166 --> 00:12:24,156 It's basically saying, look, I'm not, I mean, he famously said, shut up, you know, I'm not going to shut up and dribble. 207 00:12:24,156 --> 00:12:27,876 Like they're more than just going out and playing basketball and then going home. 208 00:12:27,886 --> 00:12:29,596 Like they are, they are in front of everything. 209 00:12:29,596 --> 00:12:31,886 So I think they've made themselves more culturally relevant. 210 00:12:32,286 --> 00:12:41,216 I think the demand, the people love sports, you know, at a level that is far bigger, the leagues have gotten much sexier in terms of how they present. 211 00:12:41,216 --> 00:12:41,306 And. 212 00:12:41,706 --> 00:12:43,576 F1 Miami and Super Bowl. 213 00:12:43,576 --> 00:12:58,546 And, and then, you know, not to mention it's, it sports is sort of the last place where everyone gathers together, like in a world of streaming and a world of, there's no more appointment television, like you get together for the U S open final, you go together to F1 Miami. 214 00:12:58,546 --> 00:13:07,336 So sports as a platform is, you know, incredibly dynamic to advertisers in ways that I think, Very few other things can be right now. 215 00:13:07,406 --> 00:13:08,076 And you're seeing it. 216 00:13:08,476 --> 00:13:08,806 Brian: Yeah. 217 00:13:08,836 --> 00:13:17,696 And I think also, you know, look, there's, I think particularly like in the NBA, I mean, there's, there's usually a player in one generation who defines it, right? 218 00:13:17,696 --> 00:13:23,366 It was Michael Jordan before and, and I think it's obviously it's been LeBron and I think, you know, LeBron. 219 00:13:23,751 --> 00:13:35,569 It seems like he was, he was from the very beginning, very business oriented with Maverick Carter, and building his own business, whereas before it was, you know, endorsements and, and whatnot. 220 00:13:35,949 --> 00:13:44,089 And I think that's a major change because I, when you look at a lot of the top players now, they almost all have like media entities, right? 221 00:13:44,489 --> 00:13:53,189 Adam: yeah, I mean, look, I think that, first of all, LeBron is, the smartest, most thoughtful, sophisticated person I've, I've been around. 222 00:13:53,189 --> 00:13:54,762 I mean, Schwarzenegger was as well. 223 00:13:54,772 --> 00:13:59,092 I mean, I've had the privilege of being around both and these are, like you say, he came in as a businessman. 224 00:13:59,092 --> 00:14:04,332 Like LeBron was, LeBron has always been very serious about his business, what he does. 225 00:14:04,542 --> 00:14:06,612 His, his profession, his basketball. 226 00:14:06,612 --> 00:14:09,462 there's a reason he's playing this long at this level. 227 00:14:09,462 --> 00:14:13,649 It's just, he's just, he's, I'm in awe of him all the time and his work ethic and what he does. 228 00:14:14,049 --> 00:14:17,489 So when you say he's been serious about his business, yes, he's been serious about his business. 229 00:14:17,889 --> 00:14:21,209 he was one of the first athletes to go out and create a production company. 230 00:14:21,239 --> 00:14:26,189 He was one of the first athletes to, you know, to wear hot couture down the runway. 231 00:14:26,189 --> 00:14:27,079 Like he's been the first. 232 00:14:27,316 --> 00:14:29,356 In a lot of things and been very influential. 233 00:14:29,756 --> 00:14:35,496 It has led to more and more athletes thinking about the businesses they want to build while they're playing. 234 00:14:35,506 --> 00:14:40,876 I think one of the big innovations LeBron had was he was like, there were athletes who were doing this sort of thing, like when they retired. 235 00:14:41,206 --> 00:14:44,066 LeBron was one of the people that was like, I'm going to do this while I'm playing. 236 00:14:44,189 --> 00:14:58,229 and so that's changed a lot, not to belabor this, but getting back to the decision, you know, as you said, for the people who don't know, the decision was when LeBron famously, you know, declared that he was going to Miami on live TV and everybody went crazy because it was sort of like, how dare he do this? 237 00:14:58,229 --> 00:14:59,569 How dare he have a show? 238 00:14:59,929 --> 00:15:03,699 Where he announces it that's now, it's, it's not, that's not a big deal. 239 00:15:03,699 --> 00:15:09,049 And I I always told him that even from day one back then, that I thought it was visionary. 240 00:15:09,079 --> 00:15:13,339 I was like, well, this is where the world is going, but people just weren't ready for it. 241 00:15:13,389 --> 00:15:14,729 But he broke that down. 242 00:15:14,729 --> 00:15:18,909 And now, you know, high school kids are doing it to announce where they go to, where they're going to go to college. 243 00:15:19,309 --> 00:15:25,999 So LeBron is, I mean, again, I can't, I can't say enough about his impact on sports and, and me personally. 244 00:15:26,399 --> 00:15:26,679 Brian: Yeah. 245 00:15:26,909 --> 00:15:31,589 But do you think cause obviously a lot of other players followed a similar past, right? 246 00:15:31,639 --> 00:15:35,479 You know, being investors, starting their own like production companies, media companies. 247 00:15:35,869 --> 00:15:39,989 Is this overall, cause I mean, you're going in a very different direction with Offball, right? 248 00:15:40,279 --> 00:15:41,559 it's very personality driven. 249 00:15:41,559 --> 00:15:44,249 There's a lot of leverage that comes with celebrity, obviously. 250 00:15:45,316 --> 00:15:48,156 I end up wondering, usually these trends are overdone, right? 251 00:15:48,176 --> 00:15:49,946 I mean, is this one of those things where. 252 00:15:50,311 --> 00:15:58,641 There's going to be a lot of athlete driven media entities that, do not actually go very far. 253 00:15:59,041 --> 00:16:00,691 Adam: I mean, look, this will get into off ball. 254 00:16:00,691 --> 00:16:05,401 Like I, to me, everything is the, and I learned this at TPG to me, everything's the business model. 255 00:16:05,801 --> 00:16:18,998 You know, I think that it depends on the athlete, it depends on the opportunity they have, it depends on the creativity of pursuing that, I think the idea that, and by the way, production company is a vague concept, right? 256 00:16:18,998 --> 00:16:29,478 If I'm, if I'm a big athlete, if I'm Victor Wimbiyama, And I want to start a production company and I just produce my commercials, my videos, my movies, then that's a production company. 257 00:16:29,478 --> 00:16:37,118 If I'm Victor Wim Benyama and I want to, I want to start a production company that covers every single, You know, new young player coming out of Europe. 258 00:16:37,398 --> 00:16:38,228 I'm going to raise money. 259 00:16:38,228 --> 00:16:39,488 I'm going to hire an operating team. 260 00:16:39,488 --> 00:16:40,618 And then that's a different thing. 261 00:16:40,618 --> 00:16:45,398 Like it, so I'm still very bullish on the opportunity for athletes to build their businesses. 262 00:16:45,688 --> 00:16:48,878 Well, a hundred percent, there's a million and it's going to get bigger and bigger and bigger. 263 00:16:49,278 --> 00:16:56,868 The issues, how they build it, how they structure it and how they think about the, the, the scaling of it, but they have, they have all the influence in the world. 264 00:16:56,878 --> 00:16:57,138 Right. 265 00:16:57,168 --> 00:17:04,977 And, and to your point, like you might say, Oh, are we, are we past, you know, all these beauty brands that were started by, you know, famous young women like Kendall Jenner? 266 00:17:04,977 --> 00:17:06,107 Like, are we over that? 267 00:17:06,167 --> 00:17:10,367 No, there's always going to be people who want to buy beauty brands from global icons. 268 00:17:10,367 --> 00:17:11,297 It's just how you do it. 269 00:17:11,697 --> 00:17:11,887 Brian: Yeah. 270 00:17:11,887 --> 00:17:22,067 I mean, you can build your own distribution when you have, when you have that kind of celebrity and, and look, you see what the, the, the Manning, the Mannings have done, what the Kelsey's are now, 271 00:17:22,427 --> 00:17:22,437 Adam: A 272 00:17:22,614 --> 00:17:23,202 Brian: doing. 273 00:17:23,432 --> 00:17:26,742 And so that's, it's, it's pretty powerful. 274 00:17:26,822 --> 00:17:29,262 so talk to me about, about Offball. 275 00:17:29,292 --> 00:17:35,067 I mean, we talked about it a little, I think, you know, several months ago when you were sort of getting, you know, planning this out. 276 00:17:35,147 --> 00:17:37,127 but what, what was the inspiration for it? 277 00:17:37,127 --> 00:17:41,287 What did you see missing in a very crowded sports media landscape? 278 00:17:41,687 --> 00:17:47,352 Adam: you know, I saw two things I felt like the appetite, there was so much great. 279 00:17:47,752 --> 00:17:51,762 content and stories and narratives about sports culture. 280 00:17:51,822 --> 00:17:55,322 put aside, like it's just, it's so compelling, right? 281 00:17:55,722 --> 00:18:03,882 Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey and Lewis Hamilton and LeBron James and All these characters and they're starting companies and, and people love it. 282 00:18:03,882 --> 00:18:14,022 And then you have, you know, you looked at the NBC, the Olympics, you know, and you looked at how the influencers were covering, it's just, it is such an incredible space and, and the, and the best content is just sort of everywhere. 283 00:18:14,022 --> 00:18:18,232 It's on Tik TOK, it's on Instagram, it's stories, it's podcasts, it's YouTube. 284 00:18:18,232 --> 00:18:18,912 It just was everywhere. 285 00:18:18,912 --> 00:18:20,172 And there's so much of it. 286 00:18:20,572 --> 00:18:23,302 so discovery became something really interesting to me. 287 00:18:23,342 --> 00:18:27,782 And then the flip side is the, area is so popular. 288 00:18:28,112 --> 00:18:32,942 When you go to social, the experience I was finding. 289 00:18:32,942 --> 00:18:36,572 And when I was talking to friends was, was becoming more and more problematic. 290 00:18:36,972 --> 00:18:37,862 It was negative. 291 00:18:38,207 --> 00:18:46,877 A lot of toxic stuff, you know, as we all know, the internet, the internet regresses to, what's controversial, what's, you know, negative. 292 00:18:46,897 --> 00:18:51,237 And I just found that there were so many people that were enjoying this content. 293 00:18:51,237 --> 00:18:53,327 And then the discovery experience was so broken. 294 00:18:53,727 --> 00:18:55,797 Was there a different way to think about it? 295 00:18:56,197 --> 00:18:58,977 And I was particularly fixated on aggregation. 296 00:18:58,997 --> 00:19:03,008 Aggregation is, really problematic in sports, media. 297 00:19:03,408 --> 00:19:06,598 and by aggregation, cause people will look at off ball and say, Oh, that's an aggregation site. 298 00:19:06,598 --> 00:19:08,658 And I'm always quick to say, no, it's a curation site. 299 00:19:08,658 --> 00:19:09,918 And we can talk about curation in a minute. 300 00:19:10,318 --> 00:19:22,638 Aggregation, and it's very problematic in, in sports media is, you know, Bill Simmons goes on a podcast and says X, Y, and Z, and then a whole slew of, of internet sites or social media sites. 301 00:19:23,028 --> 00:19:29,722 Take what he says, chops it up into the most controversial way possible, and then floods the internet with it. 302 00:19:29,732 --> 00:19:33,572 So as a consumer, you're sitting there and you're just overwhelmed by. 303 00:19:33,902 --> 00:19:37,932 The aggregators and not really seeing what, what did Bill Simmons actually say? 304 00:19:37,952 --> 00:19:39,012 Did I get the context? 305 00:19:39,022 --> 00:19:40,082 Did I understand what's happening? 306 00:19:40,482 --> 00:19:46,892 And as someone who's on the other end of it, working with companies and brands and athletes, I was constantly like, well, this isn't what he said. 307 00:19:46,902 --> 00:19:47,632 This is wrong. 308 00:19:47,692 --> 00:19:48,612 This is misleading. 309 00:19:48,612 --> 00:19:50,362 And it just felt, it felt broken. 310 00:19:50,562 --> 00:19:53,472 And I was like, well, what would it look like if you tried to fix it? 311 00:19:53,872 --> 00:19:55,502 and that was sort of the genesis of off ball 312 00:19:55,902 --> 00:19:56,262 Brian: yeah. 313 00:19:56,402 --> 00:19:57,992 I mean, it's a little bit of a throwback. 314 00:19:58,112 --> 00:19:59,322 I mean, I don't mean in a bad way, right? 315 00:19:59,322 --> 00:20:02,482 Because I think that things are changing a lot. 316 00:20:02,502 --> 00:20:10,683 I think we've reached peak algorithmic feed and You know, I think that's highlighted by my addiction to Twitter Because I go on 317 00:20:10,698 --> 00:20:12,088 Adam: I mean, you know, this as 318 00:20:12,173 --> 00:20:18,113 Brian: It's like eating a big but it's like eating a big like tub of Popcorn, I've never felt good afterwards 319 00:20:19,008 --> 00:20:19,438 Adam: Never. 320 00:20:20,308 --> 00:20:21,168 I have the same problem. 321 00:20:21,653 --> 00:20:32,333 like, I'll be watching a football game and I'm terrible at picking up and going on Twitter and every time I do it, my head hurts, I feel, to your point, I feel like, I, I feel like I ate something I shouldn't have ate, it's just terrible. 322 00:20:32,733 --> 00:20:37,545 Brian: yeah, I went the old Twitter of you know, people talking about the game and next thing I know I'm, I'm here and they're eating the cats. 323 00:20:38,533 --> 00:20:42,368 Adam: Well, I think, I think we're, I think it's going to get worse before it gets better. 324 00:20:42,458 --> 00:20:52,251 But, and that was the other reason not to, I, not to sound like I really, the thing about off ball that I'm feel great about and we'll, you know, we'll see ultimately what happens is I feel like we to create something. 325 00:20:52,601 --> 00:20:55,211 Michaela Hammond is, my co founder and she's amazing. 326 00:20:55,211 --> 00:20:55,911 She, we've worked together. 327 00:20:56,311 --> 00:20:57,721 Her sister plays for angel city. 328 00:20:57,721 --> 00:21:00,001 Her name, her sister's Madison Hammond, and she's been amazing. 329 00:21:00,401 --> 00:21:05,131 And she's an incredible co founder and she's so tapped into women's sports and culture. 330 00:21:05,231 --> 00:21:13,601 she really is, a bigger part of off ball than myself, but, I feel like we're at least giving people something to look at and say, Hey, maybe, maybe there's a different way to do it. 331 00:21:13,631 --> 00:21:17,801 And maybe that's overly optimistic, but I think we have to start finding different options. 332 00:21:18,156 --> 00:21:20,526 Brian: Yeah, but this is not like, it's not algorithmic. 333 00:21:20,546 --> 00:21:24,716 There's no AI, there's not an AI wrinkle, which is how I know you didn't raise any money for it. 334 00:21:25,221 --> 00:21:26,961 Adam: We've raised almost no money. 335 00:21:27,021 --> 00:21:29,221 That's, I mean, the business model is another thing, but there is. 336 00:21:29,569 --> 00:21:30,229 it's crazy. 337 00:21:30,249 --> 00:21:31,219 There's four kids. 338 00:21:31,259 --> 00:21:31,979 They're amazing. 339 00:21:31,989 --> 00:21:34,219 Young, young people shouldn't say kids, young people. 340 00:21:34,619 --> 00:21:49,189 they all came out of sort of sports journal and their business insider and TMZ sports, and they're literally just going around the internet all day, every day, finding stuff and then bringing it to the homepage and to the newsletter and curating it and putting some personality around it. 341 00:21:49,209 --> 00:21:49,819 It is. 342 00:21:50,219 --> 00:21:52,029 And the other thing that's really important is it links. 343 00:21:52,429 --> 00:21:54,119 This is why it was so hard to raise money. 344 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,269 Cause every time I told people I was doing it, they were like, well, that's not going to work. 345 00:21:56,669 --> 00:22:00,759 It links directly to the, it links directly to the source, right? 346 00:22:00,759 --> 00:22:07,029 So if we have a Bloomberg article on, on the homepage, it takes you straight to Bloomberg and then the paywall comes up, right? 347 00:22:07,029 --> 00:22:07,479 The journal. 348 00:22:07,489 --> 00:22:09,811 So people are like, well, you're taking people straight to a paywall. 349 00:22:10,011 --> 00:22:10,441 Brian: yet. 350 00:22:10,841 --> 00:22:13,611 No, you want to use AI to scrape the content and then, 351 00:22:13,651 --> 00:22:15,291 and then put it on your own site. 352 00:22:15,691 --> 00:22:15,931 Adam: Yeah. 353 00:22:15,931 --> 00:22:16,951 And I was like, but that's bullshit. 354 00:22:16,951 --> 00:22:23,881 Like I, I, my, first of all, I think people are accustomed to going through their stuff and hitting a paywall. 355 00:22:23,961 --> 00:22:25,791 I think that's a, that is a consumer experience. 356 00:22:25,791 --> 00:22:26,521 We all understand. 357 00:22:26,521 --> 00:22:40,131 I don't think it's, I think there's ways to do it that are not, you know, genuinely problematic and at the same time, like, you know, Okay, if I find myself going to Brian Morrissey's thing four times in a row, I'm going to subscribe to Brian Morrissey's thing. 358 00:22:40,141 --> 00:22:42,281 Like that's, that's how this is supposed to work. 359 00:22:42,351 --> 00:22:43,331 It's not supposed to work. 360 00:22:43,611 --> 00:22:46,721 That bots scrape my work, throw it up on the internet. 361 00:22:46,771 --> 00:22:52,681 And then, and then all that time and energy I put into it is, is going to people in the, for free and the wrong way. 362 00:22:53,081 --> 00:22:53,331 Brian: Yeah. 363 00:22:53,351 --> 00:22:55,881 So that is the curation versus aggregation thing. 364 00:22:55,881 --> 00:22:57,241 Cause it used to drive me nuts. 365 00:22:57,641 --> 00:23:00,511 my last company, when business insider would. 366 00:23:00,653 --> 00:23:16,513 aggregate our story, take one juicy quote out of it, maybe do a slideshow or something, bank 5x the page views we would, because they had bigger distribution, and it took them, well, I don't know, 10 minutes, and it took us 10 hours, and I'm like, that this, this is misaligned incentives. 367 00:23:16,513 --> 00:23:19,853 I used to say to, to, to Henry, and he would say that, 368 00:23:20,303 --> 00:23:22,153 oh, you're just an events company with a website. 369 00:23:22,676 --> 00:23:34,256 Adam: I think what's going to happen is, You know, and this gets to why off ball, you know, I mean, you know, I've been involved in Park and a couple other of these, I think that, and you spend more time thinking about this than anybody. 370 00:23:34,656 --> 00:23:40,186 Although I will tell you, I read, I read your wife maybe more religiously than I read, you and I think your wife, 371 00:23:40,886 --> 00:23:43,296 the, what your wife covers, and you might want to explain it. 372 00:23:43,696 --> 00:23:46,396 Is actually more off balls. 373 00:23:46,426 --> 00:23:54,206 Inspiration, I think comes more from your wife's outlook and what she talks about than you and don't, I hope you don't take that the right, the wrong way. 374 00:23:54,206 --> 00:23:54,396 But, 375 00:23:54,692 --> 00:23:55,442 Brian: at all, not at all. 376 00:23:56,747 --> 00:23:58,487 Adam: do you want to explain to people what your wife writes about? 377 00:23:58,497 --> 00:23:58,517 Is 378 00:23:58,587 --> 00:23:58,827 Brian: No. 379 00:23:58,857 --> 00:24:00,777 So, my wife's actually been on this podcast. 380 00:24:00,787 --> 00:24:04,927 Her name is Anna Angelic and she is a brand executive. 381 00:24:04,927 --> 00:24:07,677 She was most recently the chief brand officer at a spree. 382 00:24:07,677 --> 00:24:10,767 She'd been the chief brand officer, at Banana Republic. 383 00:24:10,827 --> 00:24:13,747 and she really writes about modern, modern luxury. 384 00:24:13,837 --> 00:24:15,682 and she is, That is like incredibly popular. 385 00:24:15,682 --> 00:24:18,892 It's more popular than my newsletter, which I'm very good about. 386 00:24:19,272 --> 00:24:21,165 anyway, it's, called the sociology of business. 387 00:24:21,175 --> 00:24:23,035 She has a new book coming out called hit makers. 388 00:24:23,129 --> 00:24:24,159 that's my little commercial. 389 00:24:24,706 --> 00:24:37,846 and she's great at it cause she understands she's, she's very, rigorous, you know, she has a doctorate and she is very rigorous about how she views, you know, the changing, modes of like luxury and culture, the intersections. 390 00:24:38,246 --> 00:24:53,566 Adam: what she really influences my thinking around and helps me think a lot about is, is The importance of brand as an emotional product and, and what it means for brand to operate at a deeper level, what it means to think about audience. 391 00:24:53,576 --> 00:24:55,146 Like she just, I find her. 392 00:24:55,546 --> 00:24:58,876 I know it's primarily about luxury, but I think it's true for any company. 393 00:24:58,876 --> 00:25:03,776 Her writing is applicable to any company where they are, they're focused on building a brand. 394 00:25:03,836 --> 00:25:10,736 They're not focused on just, you know, my hamburger is 1 and your hamburger is a dollar 50, where it's like, you're, you're trying to build something that stands for something. 395 00:25:10,736 --> 00:25:11,226 And she's, 396 00:25:11,431 --> 00:25:14,061 Brian: I mean, it's the only way you get, you get, you get leverage, right? 397 00:25:14,081 --> 00:25:19,161 I mean, everything, particularly the internet is the great commoditizer of our time, right? 398 00:25:19,201 --> 00:25:24,361 And it is, you know, the, the old Jeff Bezos, your margin is my opportunity. 399 00:25:24,601 --> 00:25:40,881 If you look at what, technology has done, To, to many industries, but I think this is just overall is it is eliminated a lot of those, competitive advantages that a lot of traditional brands, whether they're media or otherwise, have, you know, subsisted on. 400 00:25:40,991 --> 00:25:46,061 And so, you know, I think the changing natures of what is considered luxury is amazing. 401 00:25:46,111 --> 00:25:53,051 Like I, I, I, so I think it's a fascinating topic, but so how does that Inform like what you're doing with all 402 00:25:53,501 --> 00:25:54,021 Adam: well, okay. 403 00:25:54,021 --> 00:25:57,631 So, so the, the first half of it was, all right, well, what's missing? 404 00:25:57,661 --> 00:26:01,331 What, what, oh, and by the way, I should mention one last thing about off ball. 405 00:26:01,431 --> 00:26:04,961 it is, the term I'm using is unapologetically optimistic. 406 00:26:05,361 --> 00:26:11,711 and what I mean by that is again, you know, sports internet tends to be inherently negative and toxic. 407 00:26:11,901 --> 00:26:13,761 and I think that people 408 00:26:13,761 --> 00:26:13,971 want to 409 00:26:14,131 --> 00:26:14,421 Brian: it. 410 00:26:14,421 --> 00:26:15,441 Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, 411 00:26:15,601 --> 00:26:22,521 Adam: Well, I mean, look, I, I shouldn't say inherently, I should say there's a lot of toxicity or there's a lot of negativity around sports internet. 412 00:26:22,521 --> 00:26:24,894 I mean, if you ask people about like, NBA Twitter. 413 00:26:24,894 --> 00:26:28,014 Like, you know, if LeBron, I mean, I'm, I'm very closest. 414 00:26:28,024 --> 00:26:33,062 I can tell you 90 percent of the things when LeBron does something there becomes a negative conversation online about it. 415 00:26:33,062 --> 00:26:34,232 Cause it's just sort of what ends up 416 00:26:34,407 --> 00:26:34,747 Brian: Okay. 417 00:26:34,747 --> 00:26:39,097 Well, yeah, that's that's and I think, by the way, also, I think gambling has made that far worse. 418 00:26:39,127 --> 00:26:44,990 I mean, I feel that I mean, the players are getting like, you know, if not death threats close to death threats just by this. 419 00:26:45,340 --> 00:26:47,260 I'm not into the gambling thing. 420 00:26:47,260 --> 00:26:48,860 I think it was a major mistake, but that's me. 421 00:26:48,860 --> 00:26:50,190 Okay. 422 00:26:50,230 --> 00:26:52,020 Adam: I understand again. 423 00:26:52,020 --> 00:26:53,370 I think that I love it. 424 00:26:53,390 --> 00:26:54,420 I love my fantasy. 425 00:26:54,420 --> 00:26:55,890 I love texting my friends. 426 00:26:55,890 --> 00:26:57,450 I love, I love it. 427 00:26:57,850 --> 00:27:01,060 but I'm not a, you know, I'm not a gambling addict. 428 00:27:01,060 --> 00:27:07,190 I don't, I don't like, I'm not, I'm not sitting there getting angry because this player didn't hit the over because I got 9, 000 on it. 429 00:27:07,390 --> 00:27:07,650 I just, 430 00:27:07,750 --> 00:27:08,040 Brian: right. 431 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:08,540 That's what I mean. 432 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,120 It's perfectly fine. 433 00:27:10,180 --> 00:27:16,540 I'm sure you're not a degenerate gambler or something, but there are a lot of people and look, sports is at its best. 434 00:27:16,780 --> 00:27:19,180 It's a great emotional release and stuff. 435 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:23,630 I grew up a Philadelphia sports fan as many, and I still am as many people 436 00:27:23,630 --> 00:27:26,950 Adam: you know, Joellen, Joellen beads, my client, we want to, you want to get into some Sixers 437 00:27:26,950 --> 00:27:27,530 basketball. 438 00:27:27,530 --> 00:27:28,110 I 439 00:27:28,270 --> 00:27:28,400 Brian: I 440 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,930 would love to have Joel on, on the podcast sometime. 441 00:27:31,330 --> 00:27:33,250 but okay, 442 00:27:33,340 --> 00:27:34,550 Adam: think, I mean, he'll talk about the Sixers. 443 00:27:34,550 --> 00:27:37,030 I don't think he's deep on like ad tech, but we can try. 444 00:27:37,415 --> 00:27:38,015 Brian: Oh, that's fine. 445 00:27:38,135 --> 00:27:39,035 We can talk header bidding. 446 00:27:39,035 --> 00:27:40,545 We can talk, whatever. 447 00:27:41,155 --> 00:27:43,025 but, you know, look, I grew up a Philadelphia sports fan. 448 00:27:43,025 --> 00:27:45,125 I went to the Eagles games in the 700 level. 449 00:27:45,165 --> 00:27:48,985 I know, I know how the emotions of sports can go in bad directions. 450 00:27:48,985 --> 00:27:49,315 Okay. 451 00:27:49,315 --> 00:27:54,915 And I think, I think that can, I think that feeds over is it's the, all the strengths are usually your weakness. 452 00:27:54,925 --> 00:27:56,895 And I think the passion for sports. 453 00:27:57,295 --> 00:28:04,005 Combined with the algorithmic incentives for conflict can lead to, like what you're saying, that kind of toxicity. 454 00:28:04,405 --> 00:28:17,265 so I think, I think we're seeing a lot of media that is being created that is purposefully, I don't want to say, enthusiastic or optimistic about the areas that they're covering. 455 00:28:17,275 --> 00:28:19,565 And I think it, it, it's, it's an interesting trend. 456 00:28:19,565 --> 00:28:32,555 I mean, I talked about this in, my newsletter today because, you know, look, the knock from a lot of the capital J journalists of, you know, an all in or even an acquired is, Oh, it's just a bunch of softball interviews. 457 00:28:32,585 --> 00:28:35,845 Musk, it's a safe space for billionaires. 458 00:28:35,875 --> 00:28:39,085 And, And look, there's lots of different ways to do things. 459 00:28:39,095 --> 00:28:47,405 The adversarial journalism has an important role in our society and in our media ecosystem, but it's not the only thing. 460 00:28:47,805 --> 00:28:48,155 Adam: Yeah. 461 00:28:48,155 --> 00:28:51,325 I mean, I, I agree with that 1000%. 462 00:28:51,535 --> 00:28:57,835 and I could go on, we could have a very long conversation about sort of the role of journalism. 463 00:28:58,235 --> 00:29:08,635 Because I, I do spend, I still spend, I've spent my whole career working with journalists and I still spend a lot of my time working with journalists and I have very, I believe journalism is critical, right? 464 00:29:08,635 --> 00:29:14,415 So sticking with the Elon example, like I, you're right, All In is a place for Elon to go have a conversation. 465 00:29:14,815 --> 00:29:15,555 That's really important. 466 00:29:15,555 --> 00:29:33,265 I also think that there should be more respect and more time spent answering questions from the New York Times, answering questions from the Wall Street Journal, it doesn't, it's not an either or, like I, like I said earlier, like, when we started the Spring Hill Company, which is LeBron's company, we started with this thing called uninterrupted, which was like athletes were going direct. 467 00:29:33,275 --> 00:29:34,645 They were filming themselves on videos. 468 00:29:34,645 --> 00:29:38,485 And, and a lot of people went into like, Oh, this is just so that they can work around the journalism. 469 00:29:38,495 --> 00:29:39,105 This is so they can. 470 00:29:40,305 --> 00:29:43,015 NBA journalists will tell you LeBron is one of the most accessible. 471 00:29:43,015 --> 00:29:49,175 I mean, he doesn't do a lot of interviews as much anymore, but in the locker room, he's always talking to the media. 472 00:29:49,185 --> 00:29:50,345 He's always engaging them. 473 00:29:50,745 --> 00:29:52,605 People, it's not an either or thing. 474 00:29:52,615 --> 00:29:53,525 You need to do both. 475 00:29:53,535 --> 00:29:54,985 There's a role for sports journalism. 476 00:29:55,385 --> 00:30:01,085 There's an important thing LeBron has to do with them to help them do their job, but also to help them cover it. 477 00:30:01,085 --> 00:30:07,797 And then there's equally an opportunity for LeBron to go do a show like The Shop and talk to his friends about the stuff he wants to talk to them about. 478 00:30:07,797 --> 00:30:08,077 Like, it's 479 00:30:08,192 --> 00:30:11,512 Brian: but even like even You know, I go back to like what he did with J. 480 00:30:11,512 --> 00:30:11,722 J. 481 00:30:11,722 --> 00:30:13,142 Reddick for, for J. 482 00:30:13,142 --> 00:30:13,222 J. 483 00:30:13,222 --> 00:30:13,582 Reddick 484 00:30:13,582 --> 00:30:15,082 became the Lakers coach. 485 00:30:15,387 --> 00:30:15,587 Yeah. 486 00:30:15,627 --> 00:30:18,457 I mean, that is a completely different form of media. 487 00:30:18,507 --> 00:30:19,057 I'm sorry. 488 00:30:19,057 --> 00:30:20,917 I don't care who the journalist is. 489 00:30:21,317 --> 00:30:26,937 You know, they're not going to have the same level of conversation and that's not going to be forever. 490 00:30:26,937 --> 00:30:28,147 And that went real deep. 491 00:30:28,237 --> 00:30:33,657 I mean, that's like, you know, the header bidding of NBA and it's not going to be for everyone. 492 00:30:33,657 --> 00:30:36,137 But that is a totally different thing than. 493 00:30:36,442 --> 00:30:43,782 The, you know, the, if it bleeds, it leads, you know, the controversies that, you know, talk radio is obsessed with. 494 00:30:43,862 --> 00:30:46,572 And everyone has to get their quotes and, and do their job. 495 00:30:46,572 --> 00:30:48,792 It's not like an either or, cause I like both. 496 00:30:49,192 --> 00:30:49,562 Adam: Right. 497 00:30:49,692 --> 00:30:51,759 And I, I think where people have a point. 498 00:30:52,159 --> 00:31:02,079 Is when you start using these sort of alternative, you know, whether it's the all in podcast and you start to say, well, that's the only version of communications I'm going to do. 499 00:31:02,099 --> 00:31:04,819 And therefore, I'm not going to talk to journalists. 500 00:31:04,819 --> 00:31:09,169 I'm not going to answer questions about, you know, this, this, and this, and this you have to. 501 00:31:09,169 --> 00:31:11,869 And I think we, I am concerned about this. 502 00:31:12,269 --> 00:31:15,664 I don't think people truly appreciate the importance of, Journalism. 503 00:31:15,664 --> 00:31:18,084 And I'm not, I'm not trying to sound precious about it. 504 00:31:18,484 --> 00:31:21,424 Like it's, it is really important that there's a vibrant journalism. 505 00:31:21,434 --> 00:31:23,594 Like the, the breakdown in local news is a real issue. 506 00:31:24,079 --> 00:31:29,871 and where this is heading in the wrong direction is when people say, well, I'm not going to go talk to these journalists because I'm just going to go do this podcast. 507 00:31:30,436 --> 00:31:31,186 People have confused 508 00:31:31,186 --> 00:31:32,346 it from what you and I are saying. 509 00:31:32,746 --> 00:31:39,264 Brian: yeah, I think particularly in like politics and those areas, and I think it's, we see it with the presidential candidates. 510 00:31:39,284 --> 00:31:51,263 I, you know, I think it's really interesting to, to listen to, to Trump, talking to Theo Vaughn versus, you know, Trump again, shouting back and forth with Jake Tapper, I think that there's, there's room for both. 511 00:31:51,313 --> 00:31:54,053 I appreciate, at least that, that he does both. 512 00:31:54,298 --> 00:31:54,588 Right? 513 00:31:54,688 --> 00:32:03,208 I don't think that doing no, adversarial interviews is really good for a presidential candidate, no matter what their positions are. 514 00:32:03,208 --> 00:32:04,248 I just don't think it's good. 515 00:32:04,518 --> 00:32:10,678 but I think that you find out different measures of a person and that is normal. 516 00:32:10,688 --> 00:32:12,213 we want to know who people are, 517 00:32:12,553 --> 00:32:12,833 right? 518 00:32:12,833 --> 00:32:15,083 And a lot of times that happens through conversation. 519 00:32:15,137 --> 00:32:15,903 Hmm. 520 00:32:15,963 --> 00:32:22,673 Adam: and look, I mean, since we're on the topic, I think that executives have a responsibility to participate in journalism. 521 00:32:23,073 --> 00:32:32,093 And I think journalists have a responsibility to do their job in a way that is also highly ethical and, based on sort of objective truth. 522 00:32:32,133 --> 00:32:36,338 I think that again, I'm around this all the time and I have this conversation with so many of my friends that are. 523 00:32:36,738 --> 00:32:40,938 from journalism, I've had this conversation with people who started journalism companies. 524 00:32:41,338 --> 00:32:47,938 but I think there's a problem happening right now where you have communications people who are like, well, we don't need to talk to them, we'll just go on these podcasts. 525 00:32:48,258 --> 00:32:51,848 And you have journalists saying, well, they're not going to talk to us. 526 00:32:51,878 --> 00:32:56,988 So we're just going to call them with four minutes to go and say, we need an answer right now. 527 00:32:56,988 --> 00:33:02,058 Or we're going to build an entire story off of anonymous sourcing, questionable anonymous sourcing. 528 00:33:02,058 --> 00:33:02,628 Like there are. 529 00:33:03,028 --> 00:33:17,738 the dynamic between how we think about ethically, how journalists and comms people work together, not together as friends, but together as people who are committed to this work, this being done the right way, like both sides are breaking down. 530 00:33:18,138 --> 00:33:20,048 And it's, it's, it's very problematic. 531 00:33:20,048 --> 00:33:21,978 And I, and, and I don't blame either one. 532 00:33:22,308 --> 00:33:25,118 I just think we have to start to sort of try to get back to a place. 533 00:33:25,118 --> 00:33:33,508 Like when I came up prior to social media and all that, like when you work with journalists, there was, there were things that you, you were operating by a different set of rules, right? 534 00:33:33,528 --> 00:33:42,738 Like if a journalist came to you with something and they had gotten it and they gave me a day to come back to them with a response, they also didn't have to worry that I was going to go give it to a friendlier journalist. 535 00:33:42,738 --> 00:33:43,808 Cause I was going to go front running. 536 00:33:43,918 --> 00:33:44,208 Right. 537 00:33:44,703 --> 00:33:46,433 Brian: Well, they're going to front run it on Twitter now. 538 00:33:46,433 --> 00:33:47,283 I mean, that's, that's 539 00:33:47,293 --> 00:33:47,763 the, 540 00:33:48,163 --> 00:33:48,523 Adam: Yeah. 541 00:33:48,578 --> 00:33:51,298 Brian: and it creates bad incentives like on both sides, right? 542 00:33:51,298 --> 00:33:51,528 It's 543 00:33:51,528 --> 00:33:55,888 like, when you get burned by that as like a journalist, you're like, not again, 544 00:33:56,108 --> 00:33:56,568 never again. 545 00:33:56,568 --> 00:33:57,368 You get once. 546 00:33:57,663 --> 00:33:58,973 Adam: you don't lie to them, right? 547 00:33:58,973 --> 00:34:17,083 I mean, there was just a whole, and again, not to sound like a crazy old man, but I mean, it is, that, that, that system was important, and, and I understand why comms people are like, well, I'm not going to talk to that reporter, and I understand why reporters are like, I'm not going to call that comms person, and that's not healthy. 548 00:34:17,483 --> 00:34:17,793 Brian: Right. 549 00:34:18,023 --> 00:34:23,903 So you're, you're not, with Offball, you don't want to get into original reporting. 550 00:34:23,913 --> 00:34:25,243 It's, this is not it. 551 00:34:25,253 --> 00:34:27,963 It's, it's about smart curation. 552 00:34:28,363 --> 00:34:28,763 Adam: yeah. 553 00:34:29,163 --> 00:34:32,873 And it's also, we're not going to cover anything controversial or negative. 554 00:34:32,873 --> 00:34:37,810 Like the other day when Tyree kill was pulled over by the police, like really important story, really important story. 555 00:34:38,210 --> 00:34:40,980 we didn't cover it because, and again, cover it as a bachelor. 556 00:34:40,980 --> 00:34:42,710 We didn't, we didn't put it up on the homepage. 557 00:34:42,740 --> 00:34:43,770 We don't cover anything. 558 00:34:44,170 --> 00:34:50,756 because we're not, we're not journalism, we're not trying to be the athletic where people come and get the story, we're entertainment. 559 00:34:50,766 --> 00:34:53,956 We're a fun place to come and see all the cool things that you want to read about. 560 00:34:53,956 --> 00:34:57,006 We're meant to be, it's meant to be a lean back experience. 561 00:34:57,116 --> 00:35:01,556 it's not meant to sort of like become a place where people inform themselves. 562 00:35:01,956 --> 00:35:02,156 Brian: Okay. 563 00:35:02,156 --> 00:35:03,026 So no politics. 564 00:35:03,426 --> 00:35:06,146 Adam: No politics, no, no crime. 565 00:35:06,146 --> 00:35:07,236 No, no. 566 00:35:07,236 --> 00:35:08,756 I mean, it's just, there's a place for that. 567 00:35:08,766 --> 00:35:09,926 there's plenty of places for it. 568 00:35:09,926 --> 00:35:28,426 And, and, and I think that gets to sort of something that, I mean, to your point about as places get more niche and figure out their audience, like I, we want to do something where when you go to it, you remember that feeling we told you about when you go to Twitter and you feel terrible after, like, I would like to build something that when you go to it, you actually feel good after it was fun. 569 00:35:28,426 --> 00:35:28,916 It was 570 00:35:29,316 --> 00:35:29,916 enjoyable. 571 00:35:30,316 --> 00:35:32,101 Brian: So why, Why do you use humans? 572 00:35:32,101 --> 00:35:33,121 Why don't you use robots? 573 00:35:33,311 --> 00:35:34,171 It sounds like a job for 574 00:35:34,321 --> 00:35:34,921 Adam: That's not you. 575 00:35:34,931 --> 00:35:35,181 Did you? 576 00:35:35,221 --> 00:35:36,731 I mean, I, I, I mean, 577 00:35:37,521 --> 00:35:37,711 Brian: Is that a 578 00:35:37,781 --> 00:35:39,051 Adam: that's the easiest question ever. 579 00:35:39,051 --> 00:35:41,951 I, I still have yet to see a robot have taste. 580 00:35:42,351 --> 00:35:47,461 I don't know, I, I, it's not, look, I think there's a purpose and of course, there's gonna be all this incredible, I'm not like anti AI. 581 00:35:47,911 --> 00:35:59,841 I just think, I just think when I'm thinking about what I want in my information diet, I would rather interesting people are helping me find fun stuff than some robot is jamming me with what it thinks I want in my algorithm. 582 00:35:59,891 --> 00:36:00,841 I see my algorithm. 583 00:36:00,861 --> 00:36:03,251 I don't want to see whatever the robot has decided. 584 00:36:03,251 --> 00:36:04,361 I want to see, I don't want to see. 585 00:36:04,761 --> 00:36:07,331 Brian: yeah, I just want to control the algorithm on, on X. 586 00:36:07,331 --> 00:36:10,471 I mean, just because I like clicked on something one time, I, getting 587 00:36:10,471 --> 00:36:11,851 flooded by it is, 588 00:36:12,361 --> 00:36:14,481 is just, it's really bad. 589 00:36:14,491 --> 00:36:16,921 I mean, I think I did one fight video. 590 00:36:16,921 --> 00:36:17,501 I mean, come on. 591 00:36:17,501 --> 00:36:18,161 It was a mistake. 592 00:36:18,161 --> 00:36:18,441 I don't know. 593 00:36:18,441 --> 00:36:18,461 It 594 00:36:18,461 --> 00:36:22,581 was late at night, but I do not need to see people beating each other up non stop. 595 00:36:22,883 --> 00:36:26,603 Adam: you click on I remember I clicked on I think this was the day I was like, okay I got it. 596 00:36:26,603 --> 00:36:27,763 It has to be better. 597 00:36:27,763 --> 00:36:29,493 I think I clicked on like one. 598 00:36:29,543 --> 00:36:35,393 It was it was like the london It was like the show Travis Kelce was at with Taylor Swift, her London show. 599 00:36:35,793 --> 00:36:37,233 And I clicked on maybe two of them. 600 00:36:37,633 --> 00:36:39,233 And the entire feed for 601 00:36:39,258 --> 00:36:39,768 Brian: same. 602 00:36:40,268 --> 00:36:42,168 I mean him in that Gucci bucket hat. 603 00:36:42,208 --> 00:36:43,998 I'm like, I don't need to see this again. 604 00:36:44,008 --> 00:36:54,148 So I do think we are going to see a return of human curation because the need that and maybe I'm speaking to my own specific need is I actually still find. 605 00:36:54,373 --> 00:36:59,223 X like incredibly vital to what I do with keeping on top of things. 606 00:36:59,483 --> 00:37:00,983 But the problem is I have to wade through. 607 00:37:00,983 --> 00:37:03,953 I feel like I'm in Shawshank Redemption, except there's no end. 608 00:37:04,093 --> 00:37:07,483 you know, you don't remember that escape scene where I had to go through the sewer. 609 00:37:08,036 --> 00:37:09,091 but he came out the other side. 610 00:37:09,091 --> 00:37:10,041 I don't come out the other side. 611 00:37:10,041 --> 00:37:10,791 That's my problem. 612 00:37:11,151 --> 00:37:12,141 Adam: It's still essential. 613 00:37:12,761 --> 00:37:13,451 I mean, X. 614 00:37:13,521 --> 00:37:20,571 Me is like when you, when that period of time when Trump was almost assassinated and Joe Biden dropped out and I just, I couldn't. 615 00:37:20,971 --> 00:37:25,266 And not to get into a long conversation about X, but this is really the most, the most It's interesting. 616 00:37:25,266 --> 00:37:26,126 It's so interesting. 617 00:37:26,126 --> 00:37:28,606 Like that, that, it's still so critical. 618 00:37:28,616 --> 00:37:33,746 It's still so much a part of everybody's lives and it, you know, as a business, what it could be. 619 00:37:33,746 --> 00:37:46,346 I mean, it's just, it's, you know, I mean, I dare you to come up with an example of something that is still as essential, but over index is so towards the opposite of what you would think about in terms of how it can become a really healthy, vibrant business. 620 00:37:46,746 --> 00:37:47,656 Brian: Yeah, it is true. 621 00:37:47,656 --> 00:37:49,956 That could, that could be a whole different episode. 622 00:37:49,996 --> 00:37:52,676 So how are you going to make money off this ads? 623 00:37:52,986 --> 00:37:53,666 Adam: Good question. 624 00:37:54,986 --> 00:37:55,676 so two things. 625 00:37:55,686 --> 00:37:56,136 One is. 626 00:37:56,536 --> 00:38:00,036 I've learned that, everything, as I said earlier, everything starts with a business model, right? 627 00:38:00,036 --> 00:38:11,296 So if I had raised 30 million and I was like, this is going to go become, you know, an 800 million company like this would, and actually it gets to an important point, which is the tension between. 628 00:38:11,696 --> 00:38:17,306 The need to scale and the kind of consumer experience you can create in a business like this. 629 00:38:17,336 --> 00:38:28,811 Like I, I continue to believe that the pressure to scale puts negative consequences on how you're thinking about your product and your consumer experience, longer conversation we can get into. 630 00:38:28,861 --> 00:38:32,941 But, so when people go to, obviously it's, it's advertising, right? 631 00:38:32,941 --> 00:38:35,941 We're never going to, we're never going to charge for the homepage. 632 00:38:36,341 --> 00:38:39,871 because it's, you know, we're, we're, we're curating other people's work. 633 00:38:40,271 --> 00:38:45,671 the thinking around it is, and I started this conversation by talking about the importance of reputation, the importance of narrative. 634 00:38:46,071 --> 00:39:06,667 I think about, and this is, this is contrary to, how people think about building these businesses when you're raising money, but you know, your, what you talked about today, how the all in podcast is they're hosting a conference, they're, They are at the center of an idea and they're able to think about how to take that idea and think about business opportunities around it, right? 635 00:39:06,667 --> 00:39:13,177 So we're looking at advertising, but when we think about advertising, it's not a consumer facing advertising strategy, right? 636 00:39:13,177 --> 00:39:16,217 You're not, you know, hyper ice or I should say crypto. 637 00:39:16,217 --> 00:39:18,997 com, did an ad on our site and crypto. 638 00:39:18,997 --> 00:39:19,427 com. 639 00:39:19,827 --> 00:39:24,738 we worked with them actually, because they're one of the leading sports marketers in, in the world. 640 00:39:24,748 --> 00:39:25,798 Maybe the most right. 641 00:39:25,798 --> 00:39:27,048 They have F1 Miami. 642 00:39:27,048 --> 00:39:28,758 They have UFC. 643 00:39:28,788 --> 00:39:32,148 They've got, they have the patch with the Philadelphia 76ers, your team. 644 00:39:32,631 --> 00:39:35,781 So, they did an ad with us, which is about. 645 00:39:36,051 --> 00:39:47,051 Like just them thinking about sports, how important sports are to them and what was appealing to them was the idea that they could work with us to reach a sports focused audience about the value of sports to them. 646 00:39:47,451 --> 00:39:48,321 Totally bespoke. 647 00:39:48,721 --> 00:39:53,841 You know, I don't know if they'll use the ad in other places, but they, they saw the, the opportunity with that. 648 00:39:53,851 --> 00:39:59,531 So in many ways, the company is a little bit more of a creative studio than a publisher, not a little bit more, a lot more. 649 00:39:59,931 --> 00:40:10,651 and we think about how do we create something and then give brands and people a place, if they have a story to tell relative to sports culture, that we can become a place that can work with them. 650 00:40:10,671 --> 00:40:12,451 And then we're talking to a lot of creators now. 651 00:40:12,851 --> 00:40:24,923 So that's one of the things I'm really excited about is, there's all these great creators that are out in sports and helping brands think about them again, not as a consumer facing enterprise, but more as a, you know, As a brand building enterprise or as a reputational enterprise. 652 00:40:24,933 --> 00:40:43,757 So we're, we're in the early stages of, of really trying to understand what this can be as a business, but I will say the DNA is, is more as a brand studio or, as a, A community of advisors to a company versus a publisher that is sort of saying, okay, look, we're going to help you reach 1 million people at the CPM. 653 00:40:43,847 --> 00:40:45,217 Cause that's not how we're designed. 654 00:40:45,617 --> 00:40:56,117 Brian: So let me ask you guys, what is give me one area of the sports media business that you are sort of bullish on and give me one area that you are bearish on. 655 00:40:56,137 --> 00:40:56,327 Adam: Oh 656 00:40:57,081 --> 00:40:57,391 gosh. 657 00:40:57,391 --> 00:40:58,461 That's a good question. 658 00:40:58,861 --> 00:41:08,911 I continue to be very bullish on the ability to create, you know, the companies that are able to create the most compelling what we'll call shoulder programming. 659 00:41:08,931 --> 00:41:12,521 I mean, if I said live rights, okay, no, Everyone knows live rights is everything. 660 00:41:12,711 --> 00:41:26,111 But when you think about the Spring Hill company, or you think about Manning cast, or you think about some of the great work words and pictures are doing, who's run by Connor shell, who started 30 for 30, you know, Skydance has got this deal with the NFL. 661 00:41:26,151 --> 00:41:30,701 I think that, you know, I think that there's more and more demand for. 662 00:41:31,101 --> 00:41:36,511 The kind of programming that sits next to sports that's compelling and important again. 663 00:41:36,541 --> 00:41:42,701 Everything to me is business model So it's going to be the people who are sort of figuring out how to think about that in a new way. 664 00:41:42,799 --> 00:41:52,844 I was really Interested in how NBC covered the olympics and I thought You know, there was a lot of things happening with NBC and the Olympics that are really important. 665 00:41:52,844 --> 00:42:02,174 You know, the, they were able to typically with the Olympics, you would have to wait for tape delay in order to put up stuff, but on this one, they were able to put stuff up on social in real time. 666 00:42:02,204 --> 00:42:09,944 So the, the, the kind of impact NBC had by merging their social strategy with their live strategy was huge. 667 00:42:09,944 --> 00:42:13,394 And, and then how they leveraged Snoop and how they leveraged Alex Earl and. 668 00:42:13,794 --> 00:42:22,184 You know, I just, I really thought NBC did an incredible job of showing the world what, what sports coverage can be going forward. 669 00:42:22,584 --> 00:42:23,964 what am I bullish on or 670 00:42:24,364 --> 00:42:25,224 Brian: No, no, bearish. 671 00:42:25,254 --> 00:42:25,624 We got to go. 672 00:42:25,624 --> 00:42:26,424 We got to go to the bearish? 673 00:42:26,424 --> 00:42:26,554 I 674 00:42:26,554 --> 00:42:35,704 was like, the bullish is easy because this look, look, just to set this up, the reason I asked this is there's a ton of money going into sports right now for a bunch of different reasons we discussed. 675 00:42:35,704 --> 00:42:35,884 Right. 676 00:42:35,904 --> 00:42:41,404 And anytime there's a ton of money going into stuff, it's going to go into some areas that are. 677 00:42:41,506 --> 00:42:43,186 You know, it's just like AI, right? 678 00:42:43,186 --> 00:42:45,746 There's, of course, there's going to be a bunch of money incinerated. 679 00:42:45,746 --> 00:42:52,496 I mean, this is a much smaller level, but what, what's, what's an area where you think, Hmm, I don't see that panning out. 680 00:42:52,896 --> 00:43:00,777 Adam: I think the one area is that I think I'm a little more skeptical about, although I, I, I'm not a venture investor, so I don't. 681 00:43:01,417 --> 00:43:10,177 say this just out of gut, there's a lot of like new leagues that are starting a lot of sort of like second dairy leagues, and I think some of them will 682 00:43:10,232 --> 00:43:11,861 Brian: Is there, is there a wiffle ball league yet? 683 00:43:11,901 --> 00:43:12,731 There must be multiple 684 00:43:12,806 --> 00:43:13,096 Adam: there. 685 00:43:13,106 --> 00:43:15,176 There probably is one in the, in the making. 686 00:43:15,276 --> 00:43:20,186 so yeah, yeah, you, look, I think there's a lot of excitement around some leagues, you know, I think, 687 00:43:20,276 --> 00:43:20,586 Brian: What about 688 00:43:20,676 --> 00:43:25,196 Adam: like, you know, there's a, the sailing league I think is really interesting and it's backed by Larry Ellison. 689 00:43:25,196 --> 00:43:26,926 I think there's opportunities around that. 690 00:43:26,926 --> 00:43:32,756 I think the, the golf league that Tiger's doing could be interesting, but there's also many, many, many, many leagues. 691 00:43:32,816 --> 00:43:36,771 There's a, there's a women's volleyball league that, that is, also I think compelling, I think women's volleyball is. 692 00:43:37,091 --> 00:43:39,081 Really interesting as a, as a category. 693 00:43:39,401 --> 00:43:51,541 but I, there's so many of these leagues starting and again, I'm not going to call one out that I'm bearish on, but I do think there's a lot of money going into these leagues and, and, and I'm not sure I, again, everything I keep, I say this all the time. 694 00:43:51,551 --> 00:43:53,381 Like the business model is the business model is business model. 695 00:43:53,381 --> 00:43:54,921 So maybe it will work. 696 00:43:54,921 --> 00:43:55,271 Maybe it won't. 697 00:43:55,271 --> 00:44:00,331 It just depends on whether people over raise and they, they make projections that are not realistic. 698 00:44:00,331 --> 00:44:04,361 I've seen some of these decks and when you start to, when you start to see meteorite stills, when you see. 699 00:44:04,761 --> 00:44:09,821 Leagues like putting media rights deals that are like big numbers in like year two and three. 700 00:44:09,961 --> 00:44:12,096 You're a little bit like well ESPN 701 00:44:12,191 --> 00:44:13,901 Brian: big numbers are always in the out years. 702 00:44:14,846 --> 00:44:15,086 Adam: Yeah. 703 00:44:15,086 --> 00:44:16,206 And that's the other thing to think about. 704 00:44:16,206 --> 00:44:22,936 Like, you know, like these streamers, you know, I mean, as we saw in with an MBA rights, like that market is changing. 705 00:44:23,116 --> 00:44:29,776 And so to think that these emerging leagues are going to have massive media rights deals is a little bit, because the money, the dollars are going to be there. 706 00:44:30,176 --> 00:44:31,266 Brian: How about women's sports? 707 00:44:31,586 --> 00:44:37,206 A ton, ton of, of heat around women's sports overall, right? 708 00:44:37,236 --> 00:44:42,646 And, and there's a lot of compelling characters, particularly with Caitlin Clarke, and others. 709 00:44:42,776 --> 00:44:47,656 I know you guys are, are, are clearly, you know, focusing in on that. 710 00:44:47,756 --> 00:44:50,256 how big of an opportunity is this? 711 00:44:50,556 --> 00:44:53,546 And what is catalyzing this now? 712 00:44:53,546 --> 00:44:56,602 I mean, women's sports have been with us for a long, long time. 713 00:44:56,603 --> 00:44:57,240 I 714 00:44:57,307 --> 00:44:57,697 Adam: Yeah. 715 00:44:57,945 --> 00:45:12,635 first of all, you know, I'll call out the co founder of Offball, Michaela Hammond, who's, you know, Been involved in women's sports for her whole career, her sister, like I said, but, you know, and also Alex Morgan, who just retired, just, you know, want to sort of acknowledge, and 716 00:45:12,645 --> 00:45:28,205 I, I actually worked with Alex to start a company another sports company focused on women's sports called Together, the E is an X, started that with Alex Morgan and Sue Bird and a bunch of people, Jessica Robertson, what has been huge in that company are instrumental and growing it. 717 00:45:28,205 --> 00:45:33,635 So I've done a lot in women's sports and I, I really like it and, and, I've spent a lot of time in it. 718 00:45:34,035 --> 00:45:40,325 I'm really bullish about the core women's sports, WNBA, NWSL women's soccer more broadly. 719 00:45:40,325 --> 00:45:42,035 I think volleyball has a huge opportunity. 720 00:45:42,435 --> 00:45:45,055 I think there's a lot more growth in that. 721 00:45:45,168 --> 00:45:46,798 there's a number of reasons why. 722 00:45:46,978 --> 00:45:52,288 but I think the, the quality of those games are to a point now where people want to watch it. 723 00:45:52,508 --> 00:46:01,698 The quality was always there before, you know, obviously, but the, you know, when I say quality, I mean, the production, the investment, the marketing, the, these leagues. 724 00:46:01,858 --> 00:46:05,258 For them to thrive, they require an entire ecosystem around it. 725 00:46:05,318 --> 00:46:06,578 Like the production has to be good. 726 00:46:06,588 --> 00:46:07,798 The announcers have to be good. 727 00:46:07,808 --> 00:46:09,678 The, the marketing has to be there. 728 00:46:09,678 --> 00:46:10,898 Like it doesn't just happen. 729 00:46:10,918 --> 00:46:18,578 And so you're seeing now the money go into the things that these leagues need in order to get the ratings that will then drive all the growth. 730 00:46:18,978 --> 00:46:22,038 And so that to me is why I, I remain really high on it. 731 00:46:22,038 --> 00:46:27,188 I think that, Unfortunately, I think it was so underserved for so long. 732 00:46:27,198 --> 00:46:30,718 Like the, the amount of growth that is available is significant. 733 00:46:31,118 --> 00:46:35,398 Brian: and, and, you know, look, the, the quality of play, at least in the WNBA is just far higher than it was. 734 00:46:35,398 --> 00:46:38,218 I mean, maybe it's the same as, as, as the NBA, it just feels in, 735 00:46:38,218 --> 00:46:39,008 Adam: Well, that's true for the NBA. 736 00:46:39,008 --> 00:46:42,678 I mean, I, you know, I, although I'm going to get myself in trouble for, you know, I, all the 737 00:46:42,688 --> 00:46:44,668 people that think it was better, it was better, 738 00:46:44,688 --> 00:46:45,048 Brian: podcast. 739 00:46:45,088 --> 00:46:46,768 Charles can come on the podcast too. 740 00:46:48,408 --> 00:46:53,727 Adam: I, but yeah, and then, and then, you know, the, the, the characters, I, I'm just a big believer. 741 00:46:53,727 --> 00:46:54,557 Like I'm, I. 742 00:46:54,957 --> 00:46:58,460 I always talk about like sports at its core is, WWE, right? 743 00:46:58,460 --> 00:46:59,680 It's, it's heroes and 744 00:46:59,745 --> 00:47:01,665 Brian: Angel Reese versus Caitlin Clarke. 745 00:47:01,945 --> 00:47:02,475 it's great. 746 00:47:02,475 --> 00:47:02,495 I 747 00:47:02,630 --> 00:47:03,000 Adam: it's just, 748 00:47:03,075 --> 00:47:03,390 it's like, 749 00:47:03,390 --> 00:47:04,530 the character, right? 750 00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:07,600 it's like you get bought up in the characters and like, and again, that's. 751 00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:09,030 A plug for Offball. 752 00:47:09,030 --> 00:47:10,310 Like that's what we want to be. 753 00:47:10,310 --> 00:47:17,880 We want to help you follow all the characters and the storylines and the, and the husbands and the boyfriends and the girlfriends. 754 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:19,570 Like, it's just, it's all fun. 755 00:47:19,970 --> 00:47:20,440 Brian: Yeah. 756 00:47:20,581 --> 00:47:25,141 this is now like, I mean, I guess like in the, in the, you know, we're getting the sort of, what were they called? 757 00:47:25,141 --> 00:47:27,271 Like wags, women and girlfriends. 758 00:47:27,311 --> 00:47:28,911 I guess there'll be the flip side of that too. 759 00:47:29,311 --> 00:47:30,631 Our, our wives and girlfriends. 760 00:47:30,704 --> 00:47:44,992 Adam: by the way, real quick, The other thing that I love, which is just so interesting and a, and a space we're trying to be really thoughtful about is, The interest amongst Americans in European sports, most notably F1 and, football, European football, soccer. 761 00:47:45,122 --> 00:48:03,243 so, there is more and more and more people, soccer in particular, which I really like, you know, and the World Cup's coming here, but, I think about Off Ball as a, as a way for people to follow the storylines around F1 and, and soccer that are, you know, You know, just, just the right amount for an American who's really interested in it, right? 762 00:48:03,243 --> 00:48:08,903 if you were a Brit and you were trying to follow the NBA, you don't, you don't, you wouldn't follow it the way Bill Simmons follows it. 763 00:48:08,903 --> 00:48:13,803 You would follow it in a little bit more of a way, like, you know, there's only so much of time and energy you would have. 764 00:48:13,803 --> 00:48:20,121 So I think about how much people love soccer and, and F1 and, and can we be a gateway drug? 765 00:48:20,326 --> 00:48:23,635 to those sports for, Euro curious fans. 766 00:48:23,758 --> 00:48:25,060 I 767 00:48:25,260 --> 00:48:25,440 Brian: that. 768 00:48:25,810 --> 00:48:32,970 You know, when I go visit my in laws like in Belgrade, I inevitably find myself watching with my father in law a handball game. 769 00:48:33,020 --> 00:48:35,870 So you can get on the ground, the ground floor with handball. 770 00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,620 It's never really taken off here, but it's, it's, it's very popular. 771 00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:40,500 Adam: tried during the Olympics. 772 00:48:40,900 --> 00:48:42,800 I tried during Olympics to do the handball thing. 773 00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:43,920 I, I, I, but you 774 00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:46,250 Brian: It's kind of like basketball and soccer. 775 00:48:46,490 --> 00:48:46,620 It's a 776 00:48:46,750 --> 00:48:51,730 Adam: honestly, like if all of a sudden handball had like a David Beckham, it would blow up. 777 00:48:51,810 --> 00:48:54,900 if there was a character who was like a David Beckham master. 778 00:48:56,460 --> 00:49:01,410 And, you know, and you were as interested in him as in him or her as an individual, like that would help. 779 00:49:01,810 --> 00:49:04,440 Brian: Okay, let's, you know, you heard it here first. 780 00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:06,660 Handball is the new, the new breakout sport. 781 00:49:07,060 --> 00:49:07,630 Adam: one last thing. 782 00:49:07,630 --> 00:49:13,838 I, I, I also should, mention that, Chris Stone, who was the, editor at Sports Illustrated for a long time. 783 00:49:13,838 --> 00:49:18,638 And then at the LA Times is overseeing the newsroom and he's been, he's been fantastic. 784 00:49:18,658 --> 00:49:28,388 And, and ironically, Chris and I worked together on, a really, Fun project, which was when LeBron went back to Cleveland and he did the essay in sports illustrated. 785 00:49:28,603 --> 00:49:35,373 Brian: Oh, yeah, because that was like a little bit like he tacked back to the more traditional kind of thing, but it was, it was a little different. 786 00:49:35,373 --> 00:49:36,163 Great, great cover. 787 00:49:36,163 --> 00:49:46,383 I mean, you think about the, the, how much has changed from, from when Chris wrote that like article and you know, the cover of SI being used to say, you know, I'm, I'm coming home. 788 00:49:46,783 --> 00:49:51,513 It's very, it's just a very different, a very different landscape now. 789 00:49:51,643 --> 00:49:53,803 and I don't know, that's just how it is. 790 00:49:54,594 --> 00:49:54,964 awesome. 791 00:49:55,014 --> 00:49:58,144 Adam, thank you for, doing your first podcast with me and 792 00:49:58,309 --> 00:49:58,829 Adam: Thank you 793 00:49:58,854 --> 00:50:01,734 Brian: getting Joelle on here soon. 794 00:50:02,885 --> 00:50:05,105 Adam: I'll get him a primer on the, uh, Google antitrust 795 00:50:05,310 --> 00:50:05,590 Brian: Yeah. 796 00:50:05,590 --> 00:50:06,650 Tell what once, yeah. 797 00:50:06,650 --> 00:50:12,340 When GAM and whether they're going to split it off. 798 00:50:13,700 --> 00:50:14,090 And, 799 00:50:14,805 --> 00:50:15,165 Adam: you. 800 00:50:15,235 --> 00:50:21,191 I'm an avid listener and, I really appreciate you, helping people kind of organize how everything's unfolding. 801 00:50:22,113 --> 00:50:22,493 Brian: Thanks Adam. 802 00:50:22,916 --> 00:50:23,482 Adam: Thanks, bud.