Welcome to the Borderlands Trail and Ultra Running podcast.

My name is Josh Rosenthal.

I'm the founder, I'm the host.

Did you know the north face opened for business on October 26, 1966 with a Grateful Dead concert?

My dad's birthday is October 26 and he went to high school with Bob Weir.

That makes me famous.

Borderland.

Somehow we're still not learning borderlands suck at running.

My guest today is Taylor Bodine.

He's the lead trail reviewer for Believe in the run.

I think believe in the run is doing just some of the most useful, helpful work in gear review, and it's also designed really beautifully.

We talk a lot about that upfront today, just like what makes believe in the run so special and why I would reach out to them to say, hey, I don't have a gear component.

I'm not a big gear head, though.

I really, I love it, but I'm not going to be able to geek out on it and really bring anything of value to you all.

So I just went straight to the top and reached out to Thomas Neuberger, who started believing the run and just said, hey, this is what I'm trying to do.

What would you think about joining me or having someone from your team join me?

He connects me with Taylor and you'll see from today's podcast, he's a perfect fit for what I'm wanting to do.

He can go deep and wide into the topics of, especially today, trail shoes and the brand of North Face.

We did Solomon already today we do north face and we're going to keep doing these because for me personally, they're just incredibly satisfying from a love of history and a love of the industry and all these things.

To go deep into the brand and then to understand their products and what they're like now and what their value proposition is and why we should wear them and what they're going to do next.

You can expect today to learn about the history of North Face.

You can expect to learn some details about shoes that you have probably never heard of before or learned before.

Why do shoes even have a drop?

You may know that I had no idea until today why shoes even have a drop.

It never even occurred to me to ask why.

You'll get the full rundown of North Face's trail running shoe portfolio right now.

Like the full scope, from the easy stuff running on gravel to, you know, off roading in the middle of nowhere.

They've got a shoe for everything.

And it's just, for me, downright enjoyable to talk on this level with someone as expertly informed as Taylor Bodine.

We couldn't have the conversation without path projects or victory insoles.

Been really grateful to have them as a sponsor to help make all this content go forward.

Click those links in the show notes.

And without any further ado, here's my interview with Taylor Bowden, where we go into depth on north Face answering this question.

Why is North Face so misunderstood?

It's too damn cold to warm.

Welcome to North Face is a brand that, I mean, me growing up in west Texas, in Lubbock, Texas, North Face was a very pivotal brand in a city that did not need outdoor gear.

But everybody had stuff related to north face.

It's iconic, it's historic.

I mean, it's a part of the, like, the heritage of being outdoors, you know, in the last 50 years or so.

Started in 1966, which I think is interesting.

October 26, 1966, and a member of the Grateful Dead played at the grand opening of the North Face store.

And the reason that's interesting to me is because my dad's birthday is October 26, and he went to high school with Bob Weir from the Grateful Dead.

So my dad is, like, all over this.

He died a year ago, almost exactly a year ago.

And so I read this and I thought, oh, this is really interesting, Bob.

I mean, he didn't know Bob Weir that well, but that the Grateful Dead is connected to the north face like this.

This brand is important on a lot of levels, like him or not.

And on Borderlands, I put out this thing like, hey, what do you think of when you, when you hear north face?

What's your sentiment?

What are you thinking?

A lot of people had some critical things to say, some things that I don't.

I don't know how informed or how uninformed they are.

But today I have a guest who's coming back again, and I hope again and again and again to do a deep dive in north Face, to maybe understand some of the negative sentiment, to help us see, like, what's happening behind the scenes, what's, like, the history of this brand and the shoes and how they make our sport better and how they invest in our sport, the teams that they have, all this sort of stuff.

So we're going to.

We're going to dive all the way in.

But first, Taylor Bodine from believe in the run.

Welcome.

I'm glad you're here.

Thanks.

Glad to be back again.

And just to be honest, like, right off the bat, like, yeah, for me, the north face right now is one of the, for trail running and being a consumer it's one of the least appreciated, but one of the best brands right now from top to bottom of.

Like, no matter what trails or where you're going, what you're doing in the outdoors, like, they're one of the best performance brands right now.

And that's kind of hard to hear for some people.

So I'm just going to lead off with that and we can.

We'll get into some questions of why.

But, yeah, I mean, like, you, you've got your finger on the pulse of the industry at a gear level.

Like, like few others.

We were chatting before.

For anyone out there who knows of the site, Hodinkee, the website, like, the industry standard for watches, if you've ever geeked out on watches, it was the place to go.

The epicenter of all wristwatch activity in the world goes through that website.

And I think where Taylor's at, believe in the run is similar.

Like, it's, you know, brands are looking at it.

Watch brands would look at what Hodinkee was doing and then, you know, consumers are there.

And so it's like, it was a website that really had, that had some power to shape the products that were coming out from these big brands.

And I think that's what believe in the run is.

And that's where Taylor is, is the lead trail reviewer.

And so I think, you know, you're, you're very well suited to maybe, and I'm not saying, do you agree?

Do you disagree?

Maybe just from a journalistic approach.

Do you, where do you think some of that negative sentiment comes from?

I was really shocked by it.

Yeah, I think first, just with your comment, I'm just gonna give a little more for believe in the run here of, like, that's why I love being on the believe in the run team and why, like, I've stayed for a while now of, like, one, I love the people, but two, we've always been about honest reviews.

And so, like, yeah, both the consumer benefits and the brands that send us product, they're gonna benefit, too.

Like, we know of brands that just kind of shut down the office once a review comes out and they read it all, talk about it, and, you know, see how their next products are gonna be in line or not in line with what we've said and recommended.

So it is, I think, believe in the run in particular has.

That's why the community really comes around it for these community events, too, because you get to know the reviewers, you get to know product, you figure out what's good for you and what's not.

And yeah, I think all from an.

Honest standpoint is maybe important to know before you answer the question about North Face is.

So this is, you know, when you talk about shoes, you hear, you know, you jump in and not everybody wants to say, I don't know the answer to that.

I don't know what it.

What's an upper, what's a, you know, what's all this stuff?

Yeah.

The best illustration I've ever seen of like the Anatomy of a shoe is on believe in the run.

I'll link it in the show notes like it walks you.

I mean, I'm not like a gear geek.

I can't name all this like this stuff.

But you would be shocked at how everything on a shoe has a name and how detailed and how well, it's beautifully illustrated also.

So I think that's probably important.

And maybe even as you go, if we hit different parts of the shoe to maybe for this episode to just not assume that everybody knows what, you know, these parts of a shoe are, but believe in the run is a great, just a phenomenal resource for, for shoe anatomy.

Yeah, I like to think so.

But, yeah, with the North Face in particular, we'll kind of get into that.

And it kind of goes back to like that time you were talking about that north Face.

Even when I was a teenager, like I remember for Christmas, I asked for from my grandparents, I just wanted a north Face pullover.

Right.

Something that said North Face because style was so in play at that time.

And this was like, you know, in the late, let's see, 2010 is when I would have graduated high school.

So just like in the late 2008, 2009, that type of time of when North Face just took over the Midwest, took over the US, it was a global brand, but mostly for style, I would say.

And so my point is basically that they went so heavy into style because they were doing so well and that I feel like they, that's where their reputation as an outdoor brand started to kind of wane or, and actually it really tanked for a while of like, their products.

They were just churning out so much style product that their outdoor product lost some of the, it's technical prowess and.

Yeah.

And so is that kind of like.

Columbia, in your opinion?

I feel like that made me think of Columbia, like, where they're just massive and so their tentacles, their products are in everything.

And so they, they've diluted themselves as like this outdoor expert because they're a generalist now.

Yeah, exactly.

And so for the history of, like, trail running with the north face, that's kind of where they started to bring a, some true trail running shoes into play was around that time.

Like Dean Carnassie's was really big, the ultra marathon guy.

And so there were shoes coming out at that time specifically for trail, but it wasn't a great time because they didn't have as much focus or a true development team.

Not a lot of brands had a true trail running division at that time either.

We talked about that with Solomon last time.

So that was kind of, it was just a hard time, I'm guessing, for trail development for them, they just kind of went with product that wasn't as good because they were so hyper focused in other areas and they might not have known because it was the early times of really having true technical trail running specific product out there.

Yeah, I mean, they were bought in 2000 by VFD Corporation.

And so I imagine that was just like, you know, from a, this is no judgment, just observational, but, you know, a private equity or a massive, like, conglomerate like that buys you.

And, you know, the, the assumption is, is year over year growth.

Like, that's just, that's just how it goes.

That's where you're at.

So North Face was probably just in that funnel, in that pipeline of doing what brands are supposed to do in that, that's what Ultra has gone into, that VF funnel.

East pack.

There's all sorts of great storied brands that have gone into that funnel.

I wonder, because now what I see with North Face, especially watching, let's say, UTMB, for example, their clothes always stick out.

They always do a fantastic job with making sure their athletes stick out.

In the crowd at UTMB, was there a turning point?

So if 0809 was when they were in everything, was there a moment?

I mean, are they still in everything, but they just got better at everything, or did they refocus.

On the trail side?

I know there was a refocus.

There was a whole, like, had to be like 2020, 2021, where they just kind of, they had a trail running development team and they brought in some people from other, that were coming from other brands.

There's a lot of crossing over from brand to brand and job to job in this industry.

It's pretty, it's pretty small.

So, like, well, let me back up to 2021.

They came out with a shoe, the Vectiv.

The Vectiv, the vectif.

The Vective series.

And so, yeah, they have one of.

Those on your shelf by chance, maybe not an old one.

It might not be out.

I have the.

What came after it was the Vectiv pro.

Okay.

Yep.

And then I.

I mean, the Vective pro two.

Or let me, let me go back.

So it was the summit series.

Okay.

I'm just going to get really nerdy here.

They came out with.

So when they came out with that shoe, the summit.

Oh, man, I'm just getting it.

So they came out with the vective line in 2021, which was the first carbon plated trail shoe, to our knowledge, that really used a true carbon plate.

So that was a shoe that came out, and it was really groundbreaking for that time.

I don't have it on my wall right now.

But then when they came out with the second version, they kind of rebranded it as the summit series.

So then they could go Summit series, and then we have the Summit series, Vectiv Pro, and then they have, they kind of branched it, and then they went with the summit series, effective sky.

So now they have two kind of two lines.

That one can go more technical, one is made for faster long distance trail running.

And so they expanded that way.

But when they came out with that first shoe, the summit, excuse me, the Vectiv series, that was groundbreaking and a big deal that the north face was doing that, because even at that time, in 2021, their reputation wasn't great for quality product, product that felt good on foot.

So for a little while, we would see north face around, and then there was a time period you wouldn't see anything.

I think part of the reason the product was around was because one of their race series across North America and even in Europe, the North Face Trail race series, they were everywhere.

Like, they were one of the only brands that had a full series of races that span nations and countries.

Right.

So they were out there and their products were out there.

But once that stopped, you almost didn't see any north face on the trails, unless it was someone who was a general hiker and their jacket was.

Yes.

Okay.

I'm feeling, like, blown away here in a funny way.

So North Face endurance challenge, those were my first, like, up in Park City, Utah, three, three, four years in a row.

Four, four years in a row.

I ran that.

And what's funny is that somehow it's called the North Face endurance challenge.

I don't associate it with North Face, and I don't know why, because now in my mind, I.

North face really only.

So at that, north Face only lives in my mind as a trail running brand.

Starting when Zach Miller put on the vectivs.

Yeah, like, that's when I saw it.

But they were like, those endurance challenge events were the best.

I loved those.

But it was just, to me, it was just an outdoor brand who was doing outdoorsy things, not a trail running brand.

Yeah.

And so they were one of the first to, like, they would bring their athlete teams to all these events.

They would have, like, that's where I.

Met Tim Olson and Dean Karnasus.

This is so funny.

I did not think of this.

Uh huh.

Yeah.

And so this is, I mean, they were a brand that was really leaning hard into trail running, not just from a product standpoint, but from, like, a community standpoint, putting on races like, the full package.

They were one of the first, especially on the onset of trail running becoming a big thing across the world.

But so, like, from that standpoint, yeah.

Like you said, that's going to be a lot of people's experience that are our age, maybe a little bit older, but a newer generation trail runner would have always had some of these really high end trail running products out there.

So the Vectiv series really brought in new geometries to trail running that are much more similar to something that you would see on the road.

Just kind of looking at the bottom of the shoe, the midsole, where the foam is, it's going to be more curved, have a much more efficient running form, and it's going to be with some of their upper end products.

Like, they'll have a carbon plate or a specific plate that helps with running efficiency, giving you a lot of energy return, that kind of stuff that you would see in some of the marathon shoes.

So they were really the first to get into the trail space with that.

And I have a hunch that they probably rushed that a little bit, but they were the first.

I'll always give them credit for that.

And that was a unique experience for me as a trail run reviewer to get that, to put it on the trail.

And I had, you know, I had some really successful races and enjoyed that for the most part.

Yeah, man, you're making me think of so many different things.

First off, can you hold up a vective that's like verticals?

Like, in the center?

So.

So I can see the shape of the soul that you were just talking about.

So I'll hold up.

This is the most recent one that's out.

So here we are.

This is the Vectiv pro two, which I'm just gonna say is, like, for me personally, this is the best overall carbon plated trail racing shoe on the market right now.

Wow.

You can see how it's quite curved, and I'll hold like, something like their Alta Mesa right now holds a similar curve, but not nearly as aggressive.

Yeah, I mean, so this is funny.

So, like, you know, I, again, I'm not coming from a product direction, but I do.

I come from a brand direction.

And that, that was my question.

And you, you went in and you answered it before I had it, but I still have some more about it.

Like that, that curve thing.

That's what I think about.

When I saw Zach Miller in it, my first thought was like, well, his feet look like they're curving up a little bit near the toe.

But I'm assuming that, yes, I mean, that, to me, is Zach Miller for some reason.

Totally.

What, what's the function of that?

What does that.

How does that support the runner who's, who's racing, you know, compared to a flatter version of that?

Yeah, exactly.

And so I'm going to just kind of preface by saying that these shoes are meant to be run in, and they're shaped to be run in.

And, you know, you can hike in them quickly.

You can be really efficient hiking, too, but they're made for running.

So they have this, what's called a rocker.

And so this kind of curved up shape toward the toe.

It starts in, in the midfoot here.

It just gives a point from where you're gonna strike the ground, and it kind of throws you forward.

And so why it's so aggressive in a shoe like this is because there's also, like, a firm carbon fiber plate in there that has to, you have to put so much energy into it to get energy out of it.

And so even shoes without a carbon plate are gonna have this curve.

It's just a really efficient running form.

It helps you get that forward rocker.

In the past, it would have been like having ten or 12 drop from your heel to toe, like, really steep.

And that's how we would get that forward motion for running shoes.

But most trail shoes nowadays, like, even an eight millimeter drop from your heel to your toe is pretty steep.

But most of them these days are going to have, like, four to 6 mm.

So the way, which is going to be better on your achilles, your posterior chain.

You know, a lot of people went to ultra for that reason.

There's no drop from the heel to the forefoot, so you're just recruiting a lot more muscles.

Yeah, but we also know that that's not the best for everybody.

And when you're talking about efficient and fast, this is kind of the geometry of a midsole.

This foam part on the bottom.

That's going to be helping.

That's.

Yeah, I mean, that answering.

You're blowing my mind here, because I've never.

I've always thought, okay, what's the drop?

What.

Where do I want to.

You know, which.

What's good for me, I ran an ultras for a number of years, and.

And now I don't really pay attention that much to drop anymore.

Is the function of drop.

I mean, based off what you just said, is, is it that, like.

Is when.

When they raise that drop up, they're trying to get you to lean, like, push forward, like, go forward into your run.

Is that the purpose of a drop?

Yeah, exactly.

Oh, my gosh.

Yep.

I've never thought about the purpose of it.

Yeah.

In the past.

And that's what would separate, like, running shoes from any other sports shoes.

Right?

Yeah.

Of there is much more drop in it.

And nowadays, like, we have so much other technologies that comes in the foam that comes into the way we can shape a shoe that benefits a whole lot more than 12 meters, millimeters of drop.

It's just.

Yeah, but.

And part of the reason why so many shoes will have drop still, is because everything we wear has dropped.

And so it's just going to be most comfortable for you as a runner.

Wow.

So, yeah, it's just I'm learning stuff today.

This is.

It's crazy.

When I think of North Face, you use that word geometry, another word that I like that I've not heard in this context, like, seeing the shape of that shoe.

And then again, because I think, you know, I love design, so I see design.

I think, okay.

To me, the geometry was like a branding decision.

Like, this is a very uniquely north face shoe.

And I know, you know, from spending time talking with Dave Dombrow at Speedland, like, you know, it looked like I had said something horribly vulgar when I was like, are you designed first in function?

Because these are beautiful.

He's like, never had.

Never.

He didn't yell it at me, but that's what it felt like.

Yeah.

Like, no, it's always function and then form.

Exactly.

But with.

I mean, with north face, like, they're just so iconic.

And I think I want to spend just a second talking about the people, like, the team that they have recruited.

That's like, when you see north face, you see their logo, every.

Every decision that they've made for who represents them.

I mean, they have like, these sort of, like, titans of, like, they transcend the sport.

Like, everyone that's on their team to me feels like they transcend it.

Like, the.

And my example first is a non trail running person and conrad anchor.

Totally.

So he.

He transcends his sport.

So, I mean, he's such a powerhouse figure of, you know, mountaineering and all of this.

But then, you know, over here, I think you got jimmy chin as one of their guys again, that transcends, you know, so many different things.

Then we come down to zach miller, you, dean carnassus, forever.

I don't know if he's still there.

Katie Scheid, timmy olsen, who was there forever.

Like, they just have, like, titans, like, transcendent titans.

And I think that's their design.

I think that's the way they look.

I think that's the way they carry themselves.

That's a very broad stroke.

But what do you think about that?

Yeah, I mean, with our conversation about the North Face endurance challenge, too.

Like, they were one of the first to develop a large.

A large team across many outdoor sports.

Like, if you go to their page, and I don't even think it's updated as of recently because, like, Katie Scheid's not on there.

Jermon's not on there.

Some of these people that have been on their team for a few years aren't even on.

Yeah.

The.

That page.

But they have a huge page spanning a ton of mountain sports.

And so also going back to, like, their genesis of north Face started as a climbing brand.

It was just the.

The person who started it.

Maybe you can remind me of his name.

Yeah, Timkins.

Timken.

Yeah, Tomkins.

There you go.

Yeah.

So him and his Timothy Swan Samsonite.

Exactly.

Exactly that guy.

But then him and his buddies, like, they started this brand because they needed good climbing gear and climbing clothing to do these massive trips.

And so one of their big pieces of their story is, like, him and his group of buddies went down to Patagonia to climb Fitzroy in that range.

And they were, like, months overdue for their trip.

And they were down there.

He had already started his brand, but then his buddy was the one who founded Patagonia as well.

So it's like, okay, I was gonna ask.

Like, this is so tracking.

Like, are they.

Was he buddies with von Schnard?

Yep.

Yeah.

And so, like, they all started in about the same era in climbing, but they were also more than just climbers that you had to be, like, a full on mountaineer to do a lot of the things they were doing.

So that's where they're, like, highly technical background came.

Yeah.

And that's where once they started going away from that, received a lot of criticism and, I mean, a negative view, apparently, from the public in the current day, but, yeah, but, yeah, I think that's really important.

Like, we talked with Solomon, too, of, like, where they're coming from, where their products came from.

Most of their product came from trekking or climbing before trail running.

And so that totally informs their approach.

That's cool.

Yeah.

And another name I just looked on, North Free trail, their fantasy league.

They do a good job of keeping the teams pretty current, but looking at Rob Crar, another transcendent figure.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Pal Capel.

I mean, they've got a budget.

I mean, I don't know what.

I have no idea what.

They're pretty big, but because most of their athletes are, like.

Like, I know Rob Carr does some coaching and puts on some camps and stuff, but he's a.

I mean, most of the north face athletes are full time athletes for the north face, and not.

Not a lot of other brands, maybe some accessory brands.

But so they.

They can provide the whole package, and they provide it to a lot of people.

Like, even, like you said, Zach Miller, Seth Rowling, Caitlin Gervin.

Like, those are just people that if you're a trail running fan, you might know them, but, yeah.

And they recently brought on a Utah Anna Fisher, as well.

Get a shout out to my.

She's crushing.

Crushing, too.

Yeah.

Yeah, man.

Okay.

So, you know, kind of bounced around the start, like, their philosophy, what they're.

They're looking like and all this, but.

And then you give them high praise of, like, hey, there's a shoe right now that you're especially excited about.

You think some of the stuff they're doing is underrated?

I think that's what helped me, caused me to go down that path.

Now, now let's.

Let's talk about the stuff that you think is great that's missed.

Like, what.

I mean, what is.

What's the current portfolio?

What's.

What's the scope where?

I mean, it looks like they're playing in.

Like, what equates to me is, like, when someone has a Land Rover to actually go off roading in the Land Rover and not just flex around town.

Some, like, some of their new stuff makes me think of, like, vintage land Rovers going through the backcountry of, you know, Great Britain.

Like, they're doing some heavy duty stuff.

I'll get to that one soon.

But their focus right now is to offer a full lineup, like, from top to bottom, no matter what kind of running you're doing.

And have that bridge into the true off trail adventure mountaineering type running.

So I guess I'll just kind of go through the lineup right now of, like, this shoe I mentioned on the last podcast of this is the North Face Ultimaesa 500.

It's a really high stack shoe, and it doesn't have, like, that aggressive lugs or anything, but it's probably the most comfortable trail running shoe I've ever run in.

It's going to be meant for more, like, gravel road to light trail.

I've taken on some moderate stuff here in Colorado, and it can handle, but it's meant more for the lighter stuff, everyday miles.

And the marquee feature is definitely this foam that they're using in their midsole.

Okay.

And so about to get, like, really geeky again.

Yes.

Like, that's.

The foam is really the future of running right now, in my opinion.

Like, we've figured out that, like, plates and whatnot can have benefit.

We know that a fit is, like, super crucial for trail running, but where we're really finding some play between brands and between shoes within brands is the foam.

And so they, they figured out this dream foam, and it's going to be in pretty much all of their shoes from here on out.

Like, spring 2025 is going to come out with a lot of shoes.

And a lot of people love, like, the endurance line and the new vective pros in the sky.

All.

All of those shoes are going to have this dream foam.

And why it's, like, why I love it so much is because it kind of combines a lot of great features that you want in a running shoe.

How you feel, like, that's the most important part, right?

How you feel while you're running.

And so it has.

You can have a high stack.

There's a lot of cushion, but it's a little more resilient than what you'd find in a road, a highly cushioned road shoe.

So it's.

Most shoes have a singular type of material.

This shoe has a blended material, so it has Eva, which is really traditional.

It's known for being.

You can use it in a lot of different ways, but it's also pretty resilient.

But it also has Piba, which is known for more of, like, the high energy return.

It's really soft.

It's in most of any race day shoes that you'll find out there.

So it's blended in here, whereas, like, if you go to many other brands are taking two separate foams and layering them to get a similar profile.

Oh.

Because this is blended.

It just makes it really smooth, really seamless.

And so, I mean, that's what I love about it.

This is the shoe that I put more miles on in the past year than any other shoe.

It's just, like, the easiest shoe to put on for most miles I'm gonna do, unless I'm going, like, truly into the mountains.

Here's a question.

500.

Yeah.

For you about foam.

All right, so I have played guitar for 30.

How old am I?

30 years.

31, 32 years.

Played professionally for a number of years.

You can give me any guitar.

I mean, I will not play a cheap guitar unless there's certain things that, you know, make it, like, novel and interesting and whatever.

But I can tell the difference between a guitar that was, you know, made in 1985 versus one that was late nineties.

Like, point being, is when you're an expert on something, like you are, and you can put it on.

Put on the shoe.

I can hold the guitar.

And I'd be like, this is not good.

Like, I hear a little buzz up here that someone who's been playing one year, two years, three years, would never in a million years know the difference between a $500 guitar and a $20,000 guitar.

Okay, so my question on the foam stuff, like, some of this feels nuanced.

Is there an element of this that's just like, hey, just put it on, and you'll notice, like, it's very clear, or is it nuanced?

Yeah, yeah.

No, I mean, if you put this on, compared to, like, so many people are familiar with, like, the speed goat or something of that matter, you're gonna feel the difference.

You'll feel from initial step in.

You'll feel it from.

I mean, we talked about the geometry a little bit.

You'll feel it through your stride.

We're getting to a day and age where there's.

There's just.

Yeah, so many nuances, and for the most part, they need the consumer to feel it.

Oh, good point.

Yeah, that's actually.

Yeah.

If they're investing that much, it better be felt.

I.

Yeah, exactly.

And so you can.

With a type of foam like this, for sure, especially compared to many, shoot many brands that are putting out a shoe at a similar price point when you're considering, just like, this is my price point.

Here's my options.

This is one of the few that has a blended foam that's really high end, and I've really loved it.

Like I said, I've been in this shoe and pretty much all the other shoes in the category at this point of the year.

And we're pulling together our, like, year end reviews for believe in the run.

And this one for me is like for a high stack shoe.

This is the one.

Sure.

Nice.

All right.

What else they have?

Okay.

And then I'll go a little quicker on the others.

So then when you go up in the line, like I said earlier, we have modern day north face kind of branched their approach.

So they have one.

One branch going more technical, one branch going more ultra trail running.

This is the more technical branch.

This is the vective sky.

You'll see athletes like Caitlin Gerben ran in this and has had a lot of success.

Katie Scheid used to run in this quite a bit, too.

You'll often see her in some sort of prototype these days because she's that kind of athlete.

They want her feedback for sure, but this is meant for more technical.

This one also does have a carbon fiber plate, but it only does have this Eva midsole.

It's much lower stack.

But what's also going to be different is that there's wrap around your foot.

This upper, the part of the shoe that wraps the foot from the top.

Most of the material that you're going to feel, it's seamless.

So it's just, it's like a sock, more like a boot, I guess, for this one because it's a thicker material.

Interesting.

But you just kind of slip in and you can kind of feel it just like pop in.

Yeah.

And then even things down to the laces, like the alpha fly is known for this, like, lacy lace.

I would say, like, I'm trying to describe it for viewers who might not know.

I like Lacy lace.

That's good.

It's a lacy lace.

It has that texture and holds really well.

And so, but the alpha fly kind of made that popular and those kind of things are coming into trail running.

But, yeah, so this is like their technical fast trail runner.

I'll put it on for workouts.

I'll put it on for heading up to a peak here.

Like, it's pretty versatile, but really highly technical.

So they have something like that.

And then the shoe that I think is probably the most underrated shoe on the market right now when people are considering trail racing shoes.

And again, I really think it's because of the north faces former appeal to the market that this is the summit Series Vectiv Pro two.

What makes this different is that it's still going to have a nice fit up here.

It's going to be a little lighter than the shoe that I previously talked about, but a whole lot more secure than something like the Ultima.

So that first shoe I talked about, about, and again, we talked about, like, the geometries that has that rocker and the forefoot.

That's really going to throw you forward.

But this line is really known for a really unique carbon fiber plate.

You can see the carbon coming through on the outside.

Interesting.

Most, like road running shoes just have a single plate that run from toe to, like, basically three fourths of the way back to the heel.

Some run the full length.

This shoe has a full length plate, but the.

The shape of it is so much different.

It has.

It's like a t almost in the forefoot, where it's going to come out to the sides to provide some support.

And that's what we're finding in trail running of, like, not only do you need that forward and back motion, but you need the lateral motion, too.

Interesting.

That's just going to add some support to the whole equation and not just focus on the forward propulsion.

And this also has that dream foam I was talking about.

Really soft to feel.

And so it can, like, you have to be able to compress a really firm plate to get energy into it and roll through it to get energy out of it.

So they have that feel.

Whereas that first.

Many people did buy that first Vectiv shoe, which is super firm.

You couldn't really compress the plate to get any energy out of it.

It was just firm.

And the outsole and midsole were really rounded, so it was super efficient that way.

But as far as using the plate, it wasn't.

This is one that I would say is, like, the closest feel to a road.

Super shoe is probably the north face Vectiv Pro two.

Do you know what that retails for?

I believe it's.

It's just right at 200, maybe 225.

Okay, wait, I'll check that.

I think it may be 250, now that I'm thinking.

I'll look Vective pro.

Vective pro.

Yeah.

I'm getting euros here at €250.

Yeah.

So around that.

So I think it's $250 to USD.

Yep, got it.

So, yeah, I mean, from, like, overall fit.

I know I'm going long on this one, but I just love this shoe.

If I'm lacing up for an ultra, that's nothing too technical.

This is like.

Or even like a marathon, half marathon.

I would take this shoe because it has, like.

Has everything you want in a racing shoe.

It has high rebound, you feel fast, but you feel good because this foam is so much softer.

The overall fit, like, again, this one's going to be at the top of my list for our end of year reviews for race shoe.

Even over something like the Hoka Tecton x three that came out and some other shoes.

I have a question that might be obvious to some, but not to me.

Break down the difference between a racing shoe and a training shoe.

Why would you not have one that does all, like, I mean, how does that specialize?

And is it.

How do you bounce back and forth from a training shoe to a racing shoe and your feet be okay?

Yeah.

And so, like, I mean, we.

We have so much information from the road side that informs what we're doing in trail running, too.

And some of the principles are the same.

Like, there's a lot of research showing that running in a carbon plated shoe is can't for, like, all of your workouts.

It should be a really specialized thing because of the energy and how it's rebounding and the muscles you're utilizing.

Often from a shoe that doesn't have something like a carbon plate to something that does, it's different.

And so they.

There's, like, some pretty conclusive research, and I can pull.

I can try to find.

That's great.

The most recent article to show that.

Yes, to show that there.

There is benefit for this and racing scenarios, but not necessarily for a lot of training.

And so when you remove some of that, like, going down to.

That's why the north face went with no plate at all in this ultimasa 500, it's just gonna.

You're gonna be able to utilize more muscles.

You're gonna still get that benefit of the foam, which is also research.

You know, for a while, with Hoka being so big, people, the running industry would say, like, so much foam is gonna hurt your knees and, like, you know, stuff like that.

But there's research also showing that that's not actually the case.

Like, couple years ago, a study came out with that was pretty conclusive with that.

And so you're just losing some of the mechanics that would make you faster.

Got it.

In a race day shoe.

And then also, when you go from race day shoe, premium product, I mean, if this is dollar 250, the ultimate says $150, like, and you can put a ton of miles on it just for training.

Like, for the wallet, it's better.

And.

And you're gonna have some different.

Just fits in the upper, like, very performance tuned fit, whereas the other is more relaxed.

You know, there's a lot.

There's a lot of, like, tiny nuances that.

Yeah, yeah.

Got it.

Okay.

Yeah.

Thanks.

That's helpful.

Yeah.

Okay.

And then one more shoe, like you said.

There's the beast.

This is the beast.

This just came out.

This is the north face in that summit series.

So anything summit series is going to be trail.

This is the summit series off road, and this is super aggressive, or, excuse me.

Off trail is what it's called.

And so it's super aggressive from, like, every standpoint.

It's, like, a seven millimeter lugs compared to something I know.

Isn't that crazy?

Most other trail shoes will have something between, like, three and a half to 5 mm on a lug.

This is a seven millimeter lug rub.

What is Solomon's?

Their cross.

What am I thinking of the.

Yeah, I think that one is.

That one's approaching seven.

That might be a five millimeter.

Yeah.

They could double as baseball shoes.

Yeah, exactly.

And so.

But, yeah, so then this one isn't meant for, like, the everyday runner, obviously.

Like, this is meant for what its namesake is saying of, like, when that adventure goes off trail.

I've done some, like, gravel road miles to get into the mountains deeper.

Like, those gravel road miles weren't as comfortable, and they're not supposed to be as comfortable in a shoe like this.

Still has, like, that similar geometry, but not nearly as aggressive with that, like, rocker in the forefoot.

It's just an efficient geometry that we know of for hiking and running these days, but it's just built up in pretty much every way possible for whatever adventure you go on, whether that's to a peak through a marsh, whatever.

Like, this is their shoe to say, like, it's still in the running category per se, but it's meant for even when you're not running.

Merrill has a shoe that reminds me of, that has the zipper that comes up and goes up probably that high as well.

A little bit larger.

Longer lugs.

That one I would use for running in deeper snow and Salt Lake City up in the mountains and stuff like that.

Is that maybe.

Is that a good function also for a shoe like that?

This shoe in particular could.

The Merrell shoe you're talking about was, like, made just for, like, that's what it was made for, is made for running in the snow.

It has the Gore Tex.

This one can certainly be a great.

I mean, just looking at the outsole, like, I've already been thinking, like, this is going to be one I put on when snow is here and I need to get out my door, but nothing's plowed yet.

Type.

Right.

But this one where it can be used in that.

It's really meant for off trail.

Bunch of different conditions.

Rock, mud, anything.

This one, it has this matrix upper, which is coming in a lot of different shoes.

They're really good at partnering with different companies.

Just like boa.

I'll get to boa here in a little bit.

But matrix is kind of like the cream of the crop, is the.

It's the most.

You get the most bang for your buck in terms of, like, durability and lightweight.

So it's just really highly technical woven fiber.

Interesting.

It's.

It's the premium upper for a durable trail running shoe.

Wow.

It's a.

Kind of goes into this booty.

That's going to keep some debris out.

Yeah.

But one of the biggest sound here.

Let me see if.

Get that on there.

Yeah, that's like Pavlov's dog.

Like, that's the sound of.

When you hear that sound, your body starts to react as if you're already running.

Yeah, exactly.

That boa dial, it's an li.

Two dial.

So, like, they want you to be able to, like, turn this with mittens on, and then also when you need to, you can loosen it.

So, like, that's really nice for me.

When you're running up the mountain, I like it a little looser, but then when you're coming down, I tighten it up.

Yeah.

And there's also, like, boa has done a ton of research that they're just having their product on a shoe can give you, like, upwards of, like, 2% benefit of performance.

Benefit.

Yeah.

Wow.

And so.

Which can be a lot over time.

Right.

And just in terms of, like, comfort, overall feel and confidence.

So, like, this shoe is just one of those shoes that north face off trail.

It has, like, all of the premium products in one.

And a lot of times that might work.

You know, having the best of the best products from all over the industry.

And this one does for its purpose, for sure.

Like, I wouldn't wear this.

I'm a teacher.

I wouldn't wear this to the classroom where most other shoes I probably would.

Although the kids would love it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So they have something for everybody, and that's what they want to do from here.

Moving on.

Like, have really premium products again, and have something for every run from your gravel road to the highest peak.

I think, clearly, it's just the survey that you took us through on those is, again, I mean, my wife and I, she was a food reviewer back in the day, like, and from zero six, I'd say to maybe like 1213 or so.

And, but we weren't, we were never the types that would go criticize a restaurant.

We would just, we just wanted to, there were other great writers out there who were going out and criticizing.

And, you know, that makes chefs have to get better and restaurateurs have to get better with those criticisms.

Totally.

But we always just celebrated the restaurants.

I mean, as you know, when an entrepreneur is doing something, you don't want to put them out of business or cost someone not to go there.

And so with, for me, with this, like, even as we do these deep dives, we've done solomon, we did north face, we'll do plenty more.

I hope that this is really, on some levels, just a celebration of North Face.

And I think it's a, it's like, totally, hey, if someone doesn't want to buy it, don't buy it.

But what I'm seeing here today is, like, there's some public sentiment out there that may be misguided or maybe was appropriately guided at one point that is now misguided.

And it's worth, it's worth doing a deeper dive, if nothing else, just, you know, Katie and Zach Miller there at the top and Jermaine Grandier and all these great runners, Rob Carr, I mean, they swear by it, obviously.

I mean, they're happy to represent it, and so it's worth it.

It's worth that.

Another look.

Yeah, I agree.

And for the most part, like, that's a really hard thing in the modern age of any type of reviewing is like, there's good products from all brands across the board.

And really, even just like five years ago, closer to when I started doing this reviewing of, like, we always, the format we always take is we give you a little background, little like, intro, then we talk about what we think is good, what we think is not so good, and then give you a full conclusion.

And the proportion to good, to not so good has changed over the last few years where there's just like, a lot of shoes have a lot of great things about them and just a few things that aren't as great.

So, like, the tip of the spear is coming, right.

And we think, at least from our knowledge until the next technology really comes of, like.

Right.

And I think that's where foams are heading us.

Right.

But, yeah, so, like, for the north, face it, I didn't have any experience with the previous generations of shoes.

I really came in when they started.

We started getting product again from them when they came out with the vective line.

And so their modern stuff is actually, like.

Like I said, it's for me, myself, and I love so much.

There's so many shoes.

I love so many shoes I would grab for.

For any given day.

And I just, like, kind of keep reaching for a lot of these north face shoes.

And so that tells me that when I have a time to reach for a shoe, and I'm not reviewing a shoe, if I keep reaching for the same brand, there's some good experience happening that I think a consumer would really love.

Love it.

Okay, one last question that's completely off topic.

Do you have any races coming up?

I do have a race coming up.

Javelina.

Oh, you're running Havalina.

What?

Yeah, so it's the.

It's with a different brand that we've been doing something called the Hoka trail collective.

So it's quite different from anything I've been training for lately.

I've been, like, a lot of the races.

Like, I just did a Cirque series race a few weeks ago, which is just, like, the aesthetic is get from the base to the highest peak around and back to the base again.

Like, that's the kind of running I've been training for lately.

So Javelina is flat.

Fast.

Hot, hot.

Yeah.

And so that's what's on the schedule right now.

Nice, nice.

Something different.

Flat.

Well, good luck with that.

I'm actually having Julian Carr on the podcast.

I'm interviewing him tomorrow.

Oh, awesome.

To talk Cirque series, because I think it's cool, as a final thought, that Cirque series has become a stop for every ultra runner as well.

Like, he's done something so cool and what he's built with Cirque series.

And so to hear you say that, that's fun.

Thanks for joining me today, and I can't wait to pick another.

Do this again.

Yeah, sounds great.

If you made it all the way through, one might assume that you really enjoyed the podcast, that you're here for the whole thing.

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