1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,510 Behaviour change is hard. 2 00:00:01,510 --> 00:00:03,340 I think that's something we can all admit. 3 00:00:03,370 --> 00:00:08,139 Whether you're a GP helping a patient be more active or you're a leader who 4 00:00:08,139 --> 00:00:11,472 wants members of your team to take more responsibility, working towards 5 00:00:11,472 --> 00:00:14,142 a long term change isn't always easy. 6 00:00:14,562 --> 00:00:16,532 Now this week I'm talking to Alasdair Cant. 7 00:00:16,552 --> 00:00:20,032 He's an expert in behaviour change and motivational interviewing. 8 00:00:20,202 --> 00:00:23,662 Now in this episode, I asked Alasdair to coach me through one of my own 9 00:00:23,662 --> 00:00:27,012 challenges, which is shutting down properly at the end of the day, 10 00:00:27,172 --> 00:00:30,672 trying not to fit in just one more task or one more email before I 11 00:00:30,672 --> 00:00:32,302 head to spend time with my family. 12 00:00:32,696 --> 00:00:35,486 Now, I no longer see patients, so if I leave work on time, 13 00:00:35,486 --> 00:00:37,236 frankly, no one's going to die. 14 00:00:37,399 --> 00:00:40,869 But whenever I'm doing talks or facilitating our Shapes training, I get 15 00:00:40,869 --> 00:00:44,619 lots and lots of feedback that people just find it really, really difficult 16 00:00:44,629 --> 00:00:45,999 to shut down at the end of the day. 17 00:00:46,035 --> 00:00:48,555 And people feel that leaving work on time is something that 18 00:00:48,555 --> 00:00:52,615 they just can't do, even if there aren't any urgent tasks. 19 00:00:52,615 --> 00:00:55,885 Not necessarily because they're worried about patient harm, mainly 20 00:00:55,935 --> 00:00:58,165 because they're worried about letting their colleagues down. 21 00:00:58,602 --> 00:01:02,242 So wherever you are in the cycle of behaviour change, whether you're just 22 00:01:02,282 --> 00:01:05,162 giving it some thought or whether you've put stuff in place and you're 23 00:01:05,212 --> 00:01:09,152 now facing a setback, this session with Alasdair will give you some practical 24 00:01:09,472 --> 00:01:13,582 and more importantly, achievable steps to help you get closer to what you 25 00:01:13,582 --> 00:01:16,119 really want, and be kinder to yourself. 26 00:01:17,901 --> 00:01:21,951 If you're in a high stress, high stakes, still blank medicine, and you're feeling 27 00:01:21,951 --> 00:01:27,407 stressed or overwhelmed, burning out or getting out are not your only options. 28 00:01:27,637 --> 00:01:31,567 I'm Dr. Rachel Morris, and welcome to You Are Not a Frog 29 00:01:35,337 --> 00:01:36,697 My name is Alasdair Cant. 30 00:01:36,717 --> 00:01:40,677 I work as an independent, uh, facilitator and coach. 31 00:01:40,947 --> 00:01:42,747 Uh, I'm a behavior change coach. 32 00:01:43,017 --> 00:01:47,007 And that came around originally from background in education. 33 00:01:47,307 --> 00:01:50,967 And then I worked in, uh, really by chance within the arena 34 00:01:51,057 --> 00:01:53,247 of dependence and addiction. 35 00:01:53,547 --> 00:01:57,807 And, uh, that got me interested in, uh, behavior change. 36 00:01:57,807 --> 00:02:00,837 And I, I use an approach called motivational interviewing, 37 00:02:01,137 --> 00:02:02,877 which is usually one-to-one. 38 00:02:02,877 --> 00:02:07,092 It can be within groups, but it's a, a way of having conversations 39 00:02:07,092 --> 00:02:11,922 around behavior change, growth that increases people's, uh, 40 00:02:11,952 --> 00:02:14,472 motivation and commitment to change. 41 00:02:14,958 --> 00:02:19,428 You are in, in my mind, Alasdair, you're Mr. Motivational interviewing and the, 42 00:02:19,728 --> 00:02:23,238 the experience and the expertise that you've got, and I've been wanting to 43 00:02:23,238 --> 00:02:25,878 get you on the podcast for a long time. 44 00:02:26,058 --> 00:02:29,768 Uh, as you know, we've been talking about it for a while because behavior 45 00:02:29,768 --> 00:02:32,198 change is, is the thing, isn't it? 46 00:02:32,198 --> 00:02:34,448 You know, you could read as much self-help as you want. 47 00:02:34,448 --> 00:02:37,838 You can read as much stuff about, well, what do I need to do to get, 48 00:02:38,138 --> 00:02:43,178 to feel better, to think better, to eat better, to live better? 49 00:02:43,478 --> 00:02:46,718 And I mean, I often get all this stuff stuck in my head. 50 00:02:46,718 --> 00:02:47,918 I'm like, what a great idea. 51 00:02:47,918 --> 00:02:51,158 But when it comes actually down to doing it, that's, that's when 52 00:02:51,488 --> 00:02:52,628 the proverbial hits the fan. 53 00:02:52,628 --> 00:02:54,368 And it doesn't actually happen. 54 00:02:54,668 --> 00:02:59,438 Uh, but you've got a, a really wonderful methodology for making it happen. 55 00:02:59,438 --> 00:03:02,078 And, uh, uh, I mean, so much so that you were the, you were the 56 00:03:02,078 --> 00:03:06,188 featured coach, weren't you on the, that podcast, A Thorough Examination 57 00:03:06,188 --> 00:03:08,318 with Dr. Xand and Dr. Chris. 58 00:03:08,468 --> 00:03:08,738 Yeah. 59 00:03:08,738 --> 00:03:11,408 And, and, uh, I mean, I'm not sure about making it happen. 60 00:03:11,408 --> 00:03:15,241 I certainly, we can facilitate, uh, conversations that allow 61 00:03:15,241 --> 00:03:18,841 something different, uh, to, to happen for, for individuals. 62 00:03:18,841 --> 00:03:22,651 And, and yes, that was a, a, a good example of, often I have to 63 00:03:22,651 --> 00:03:24,391 work under quite some pressure. 64 00:03:24,451 --> 00:03:28,231 There's a not a lot of time, most of the conversations I have is where 65 00:03:28,231 --> 00:03:29,791 people don't want to change anything. 66 00:03:30,091 --> 00:03:31,351 And, uh, that's okay. 67 00:03:31,411 --> 00:03:33,571 And then we, uh, we work with that. 68 00:03:33,571 --> 00:03:38,251 So, um, it, it, it's an approach which really doesn't have, uh, a 69 00:03:38,251 --> 00:03:42,931 strong driving agenda of I've got to change because actually, what we 70 00:03:42,931 --> 00:03:47,881 try to do is ensure that people have autonomy where they can, they have, 71 00:03:48,181 --> 00:03:52,351 um, you know, the, the, the jargon is agency for their own change. 72 00:03:52,381 --> 00:03:58,051 And once we let go of having to do this thing of behavior change, which 73 00:03:58,051 --> 00:04:02,221 creates a kind of tyranny, um, then actually something else can happen. 74 00:04:02,271 --> 00:04:02,511 Yeah. 75 00:04:02,511 --> 00:04:03,711 We'll put the link to that podcast. 76 00:04:03,711 --> 00:04:08,331 It says a really beautiful example of actually you digging down deeper, 77 00:04:08,631 --> 00:04:10,281 get to the underlying agenda. 78 00:04:10,581 --> 00:04:14,183 And it turned out not to be about the, the behavior that you saw at all. 79 00:04:14,183 --> 00:04:17,153 It was all about the underlying, the underlying stuff that goes, 80 00:04:17,243 --> 00:04:18,323 that was going on for them. 81 00:04:18,439 --> 00:04:19,129 it often is. 82 00:04:19,129 --> 00:04:21,469 And, and that's the thing when we listen, well, it's 83 00:04:21,469 --> 00:04:23,179 therapeutic, it's not therapy. 84 00:04:23,479 --> 00:04:28,219 And we'll often hear something different that, um, people have got caught in 85 00:04:28,219 --> 00:04:33,949 some kind of tussle with somebody else, and their energy is about, um, keeping 86 00:04:33,949 --> 00:04:37,934 people at bay or um, just getting people off the backs, all of that stuff. 87 00:04:38,151 --> 00:04:41,991 So a lot of people listening to this podcast will be doctors, um, nurses, 88 00:04:41,991 --> 00:04:44,931 other healthcare professionals that obviously really want to help their 89 00:04:44,931 --> 00:04:47,181 patients change their, their behavior. 90 00:04:47,481 --> 00:04:52,838 This podcast is predominantly for us to help us beat burnout and work happier. 91 00:04:52,838 --> 00:04:57,218 And so the sort of behavior change I'd love to talk to you about is 92 00:04:57,218 --> 00:05:00,848 stuff that actually we do want to change, we really want to change. 93 00:05:00,848 --> 00:05:03,728 So there's not that blocker of we don't want to 'cause Yes, trying to 94 00:05:03,728 --> 00:05:06,218 change helps someone change their behavior and they don't really want to. 95 00:05:06,218 --> 00:05:08,558 That's, that's, uh, that's really hard. 96 00:05:08,558 --> 00:05:12,871 But, but what stops us changing when we really want to? 97 00:05:12,871 --> 00:05:13,873 it, it's, yes. 98 00:05:14,173 --> 00:05:20,173 Uh, what's what we notice for, uh, most, if not all of us, we are, um, 99 00:05:20,173 --> 00:05:25,483 creatures of routine and, um, routines become surprisingly comfortable. 100 00:05:25,783 --> 00:05:31,903 And while we may want to, uh, change and, um, uh, if we take an example of, 101 00:05:32,253 --> 00:05:37,503 whatever it is, maybe snacking, uh, in the evenings or, or whatever the, 102 00:05:37,503 --> 00:05:42,543 the behavior is, or, uh, talking with somebody about their, whether it's their 103 00:05:42,573 --> 00:05:47,414 weight or their drinking, we may want that for ourselves or for somebody else. 104 00:05:47,504 --> 00:05:49,364 And it just feels a bit overwhelming. 105 00:05:49,664 --> 00:05:51,764 Uh, because of what's to happen. 106 00:05:52,064 --> 00:05:57,674 And, uh, also we underestimate the ex the extent to which 107 00:05:57,944 --> 00:05:59,264 routines are comforting. 108 00:05:59,414 --> 00:06:03,584 Now, if I take a very little example, um, you know, I, I was 109 00:06:03,584 --> 00:06:07,964 working with a, a group, uh, yesterday, uh, a group of 25 people. 110 00:06:08,264 --> 00:06:12,464 We were going, uh, in and out of a room over lunchtime and break times, 111 00:06:12,464 --> 00:06:13,964 just classic sort of training thing. 112 00:06:14,264 --> 00:06:18,644 We noticed that people go to their chair, their space, we, 113 00:06:18,674 --> 00:06:23,804 we go back, we default back to where, where's my seat, my place? 114 00:06:23,834 --> 00:06:25,994 It's even little things in life. 115 00:06:26,024 --> 00:06:30,914 And actually, you know, when we people get into routines in the evenings or 116 00:06:30,914 --> 00:06:35,354 things, there are certain comforting routines we have, and it's trying to 117 00:06:35,354 --> 00:06:39,674 be mindful or aware of those because we often do things without thinking. 118 00:06:39,974 --> 00:06:45,074 So that is, those are two first things that I'd, I'd explore with people. 119 00:06:45,374 --> 00:06:49,994 Um, because what's happened is as, as we've got into patterns of behavior, 120 00:06:50,294 --> 00:06:51,924 it's become almost automatic. 121 00:06:51,924 --> 00:06:56,934 So the tram line we're on becomes a furrow, becomes a rut, it gets 122 00:06:56,934 --> 00:06:59,694 deeper and deeper, and that's where it gets more comforting. 123 00:06:59,724 --> 00:07:02,424 And it's actually surprisingly hard to break that. 124 00:07:02,544 --> 00:07:06,774 We can sometimes for a short time, but then there's a gravitational 125 00:07:07,044 --> 00:07:08,604 pull back into the routine. 126 00:07:08,986 --> 00:07:11,677 And I'm presuming that when, when people say, Well, I want to change what 127 00:07:11,677 --> 00:07:15,637 I'm thinking, yeah, I would love to, yeah, give up sugar and be, be really 128 00:07:15,637 --> 00:07:18,037 healthy, but actually I like eating it. 129 00:07:18,037 --> 00:07:22,447 So even though I want to, I, I, I want the, out the, outcome of it. 130 00:07:22,447 --> 00:07:25,687 But actually the, other outcome, the, the short term outcome of 131 00:07:25,687 --> 00:07:28,372 when I'm doing it is just, you know, gives a bit of dopamine. 132 00:07:28,477 --> 00:07:32,260 When you've got that energy crash, it's giving you that, that short term win. 133 00:07:32,265 --> 00:07:38,055 And it must be very hard to, well, I, I know it's very hard to overcome that, 134 00:07:38,055 --> 00:07:41,445 that that short-termism of the, you know, you've either, you are either 135 00:07:41,445 --> 00:07:43,425 going away from something, you're either trying to avoid something 136 00:07:43,425 --> 00:07:45,135 and that gives you some relief. 137 00:07:45,165 --> 00:07:48,585 'Cause I've avoided it or I, it, I've got some short-term dopamine even 138 00:07:48,585 --> 00:07:51,465 though we've not done the thing that we want, want to do in the long term. 139 00:07:51,465 --> 00:07:53,835 So is it that you're just always fighting a losing 140 00:07:53,835 --> 00:07:55,365 battle with behavior change? 141 00:07:55,535 --> 00:07:58,664 Well, the, the, the, it's interesting to listen to your language there. 142 00:07:58,694 --> 00:08:00,254 You know, give up sugar. 143 00:08:00,554 --> 00:08:02,654 That's a, that's a big statement. 144 00:08:02,714 --> 00:08:07,139 And your body language momentarily reached right out to the edge. 145 00:08:07,169 --> 00:08:09,689 So what we're getting is a kind of polarization. 146 00:08:09,779 --> 00:08:10,829 And this is very common. 147 00:08:11,129 --> 00:08:13,919 This is what people, people have this sort of, uh, it, it, it's 148 00:08:13,919 --> 00:08:14,969 the top of the mountain stuff. 149 00:08:15,149 --> 00:08:19,019 Now, actually, if we do that once or twice, that's a step. 150 00:08:19,319 --> 00:08:22,739 And just being aware and being kind to ourselves, it is a 151 00:08:22,739 --> 00:08:24,119 really addictive substance. 152 00:08:24,419 --> 00:08:26,609 It's not gonna be easy, but actually if we managed to do it 153 00:08:26,609 --> 00:08:28,139 once a while, what happened there? 154 00:08:28,439 --> 00:08:30,449 And that's a small success. 155 00:08:30,762 --> 00:08:34,932 So we, we listen very carefully to the language and actually always try 156 00:08:34,932 --> 00:08:41,142 to work in a reality, not as with some sort of, an, an ambition which 157 00:08:41,442 --> 00:08:43,367 just can, can feel so daunting. 158 00:08:43,367 --> 00:08:46,067 We don't really get to the start line or we do, and then we 159 00:08:46,067 --> 00:08:47,387 feel, oh, we'll never get there. 160 00:08:47,737 --> 00:08:51,157 I'm just conscious that what I don't wanna do is focus on the, the little 161 00:08:51,157 --> 00:08:52,867 things like, you know, giving up sugar. 162 00:08:52,867 --> 00:08:55,027 That's something everybody says I want to do, give you up sugar, 163 00:08:55,027 --> 00:08:57,337 I wanna drink less, I wanna spend less time on my phone. 164 00:08:57,637 --> 00:09:02,077 Does this motivational interviewing approach to behavior change work 165 00:09:02,077 --> 00:09:06,937 for some of the biggest stuff, like leaving work at a decent time, like 166 00:09:06,937 --> 00:09:11,107 setting, setting boundaries around what we're doing and stuff like that? 167 00:09:11,107 --> 00:09:15,127 Or is it only for these tiny little sort of lifestyle stuff? 168 00:09:15,277 --> 00:09:20,047 Uh, just yesterday I was working in that very arena with, uh, a group of, 169 00:09:20,118 --> 00:09:26,118 directorate, uh, heads of service, very senior leaders, um, uh, across health, 170 00:09:26,118 --> 00:09:28,908 education, uh, social, uh, services. 171 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,270 And, um, what you've just described, leaving work early, 172 00:09:32,620 --> 00:09:35,680 or, or, or what might be described as the, the, the bigger things, 173 00:09:35,980 --> 00:09:37,660 they all come down to choices. 174 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:43,270 It's difficult, but actually we often feel victim of systems and 175 00:09:43,270 --> 00:09:48,340 circumstances, and of course we don't deny that it may partly be 176 00:09:48,340 --> 00:09:51,174 true, but, um, it is about choice. 177 00:09:51,234 --> 00:09:56,424 Now, similarly, as with the sugar, there is a connection there because 178 00:09:56,724 --> 00:10:01,884 we have got into patterns of behavior and we allow something to 179 00:10:01,884 --> 00:10:04,224 happen in an environment around us. 180 00:10:04,524 --> 00:10:09,564 And it's trying to be conscious or mindful, if you like, of what's 181 00:10:09,564 --> 00:10:14,964 happening when we stay late and think, oh, I've done it again, and 182 00:10:14,964 --> 00:10:18,504 we can drift into, but actually what is the moment that happens? 183 00:10:18,804 --> 00:10:19,854 So I will break down. 184 00:10:19,929 --> 00:10:24,894 A, a, a conversation has happened yesterday where a manager had half an 185 00:10:24,894 --> 00:10:31,014 hour of her own time and allowed another colleague to come in and take that time. 186 00:10:31,314 --> 00:10:33,504 And she worked out that she had allowed it. 187 00:10:33,594 --> 00:10:37,884 That was gently, but firmly being really clear that it wasn't that 188 00:10:38,184 --> 00:10:39,834 I just didn't know what to do. 189 00:10:39,834 --> 00:10:44,394 And she needed time, actually, that, because once people give up 190 00:10:44,394 --> 00:10:48,834 this sense of autonomy or agency, we are a victim of circumstances. 191 00:10:48,864 --> 00:10:55,014 And it may in part be true because the environment may be quite a, a hostile 192 00:10:55,014 --> 00:10:58,464 one or um, uh, such a frenzied one. 193 00:10:58,464 --> 00:11:01,374 There may be all sorts of factors that do play into it. 194 00:11:01,674 --> 00:11:05,244 But um, yes, this can absolutely work. 195 00:11:05,244 --> 00:11:09,144 In fact, it's, it's, I would say in some ways it is slightly, I wouldn't 196 00:11:09,144 --> 00:11:12,984 say easier because I think there is, what we try to recognize what you've 197 00:11:12,984 --> 00:11:15,474 described, Rachel, is a dependence. 198 00:11:15,774 --> 00:11:20,557 We can become dependent on how we always do things. 199 00:11:20,857 --> 00:11:21,547 It's what we know. 200 00:11:21,847 --> 00:11:24,937 And this is what I try to break down the, 'cause there's often a 201 00:11:24,937 --> 00:11:30,037 lot of stigma, uh, around people who, uh, struggle with dependencies, 202 00:11:30,037 --> 00:11:31,327 and as we know with addiction. 203 00:11:31,327 --> 00:11:34,567 But actually the reality is this is all of us. 204 00:11:34,867 --> 00:11:35,287 All of us. 205 00:11:35,287 --> 00:11:38,846 And what we're trying to do is withhold judgment from ourselves or others. 206 00:11:39,070 --> 00:11:40,972 Let's work with this if we, if we want to. 207 00:11:41,388 --> 00:11:43,248 I think this leaving work on time thing. 208 00:11:43,548 --> 00:11:48,558 Is really, is really, really important because when I do our training, that's 209 00:11:48,558 --> 00:11:51,918 where we get the pushback on the, when we talk about the zone of power, like 210 00:11:51,948 --> 00:11:55,398 what's in your control and what's not in your control, as soon as someone 211 00:11:55,398 --> 00:12:00,318 says, what time I leave work is out of my control, that gets challenged. 212 00:12:00,488 --> 00:12:04,578 They, people really don't like that because they feel they have no autonomy 213 00:12:04,578 --> 00:12:05,928 about when, when they leave work. 214 00:12:05,928 --> 00:12:09,888 I have to stay, you know what, because if I don't, what might 215 00:12:09,888 --> 00:12:11,088 happen, I might, you know. 216 00:12:11,358 --> 00:12:14,688 And, uh, we talk about the fact that nobody has to do anything. 217 00:12:14,838 --> 00:12:16,908 You don't have to stay, you know, unless someone's got a gun to your 218 00:12:16,908 --> 00:12:18,618 head, you don't have to do anything. 219 00:12:18,618 --> 00:12:21,648 But it's then the consequences of, of maybe not seeing that 220 00:12:21,648 --> 00:12:24,918 extra patient or or ignoring that colleague who wants your help. 221 00:12:25,098 --> 00:12:27,948 That's what you then have to live with, which is what people feel 222 00:12:27,948 --> 00:12:29,448 really, really strongly about. 223 00:12:29,759 --> 00:12:32,489 And maybe this speaks into what you were just saying about this patterns 224 00:12:32,489 --> 00:12:36,059 and the routines in the, in this dependence, I was slightly worried 225 00:12:36,059 --> 00:12:39,599 about bringing this subject up because in healthcare I know that there are 226 00:12:39,599 --> 00:12:45,689 people who are, you know, GPs, routinely staying till 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 at night, 227 00:12:45,689 --> 00:12:47,129 and that is a normal day for them. 228 00:12:47,402 --> 00:12:51,102 Well, what we already hear is, you know that, that fear of judgment. 229 00:12:51,302 --> 00:12:54,122 And of course that can, what will others think? 230 00:12:54,332 --> 00:12:58,022 Uh, and notice some of the questions that that, that you're asking. 231 00:12:58,022 --> 00:13:01,202 When, uh, if we don't stay late, what might happen? 232 00:13:01,502 --> 00:13:02,432 Great question. 233 00:13:02,732 --> 00:13:07,592 And notice as well that it's, uh, what goes on in your head afterwards 234 00:13:07,592 --> 00:13:10,442 that you, you, the expression you used was, we live with that. 235 00:13:10,742 --> 00:13:13,892 And that's the, as much the work that we have to do. 236 00:13:13,952 --> 00:13:17,762 It's not, of course, just the physical finishing things off. 237 00:13:17,822 --> 00:13:22,910 It's the dealing with this, this kind of haunting fear of what if. 238 00:13:23,210 --> 00:13:24,543 So where would you like to begin? 239 00:13:24,543 --> 00:13:28,023 Is this, is this something that is, uh, relevant for 240 00:13:28,023 --> 00:13:29,883 yourself as, as well, Rachel? 241 00:13:29,980 --> 00:13:33,670 So I've been trying to take my own medicine and, and put some boundaries 242 00:13:33,670 --> 00:13:37,990 around my work time, because I want to be available for my family. 243 00:13:37,990 --> 00:13:40,150 I want to have made a, made a meal. 244 00:13:40,150 --> 00:13:42,220 Uh, eating healthily is really important to me. 245 00:13:42,220 --> 00:13:44,530 And so I want to cook a healthy meal. 246 00:13:44,590 --> 00:13:48,830 And I say I want it, well, ideally finished by 6, but even 6:30, 247 00:13:48,850 --> 00:13:52,540 I always say to myself, I'm gonna stop at 6:30 no matter what I've left undone. 248 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:57,640 But often I get to 20 past 6, 25, I'm, I'm into something. 249 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,790 There's a few more things I just haven't got to, and I'm like, oh, and I just, 250 00:14:00,790 --> 00:14:02,140 I just push it for five more minutes. 251 00:14:02,170 --> 00:14:05,890 And then before I note, it's 10 past seven and I haven't even, everyone's 252 00:14:06,220 --> 00:14:08,260 home and I haven't even started. 253 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:10,480 Um, and then I feel like such a feeling. 254 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,520 I'm like, oh gosh, I just needed, that half an hour extra I've 255 00:14:13,540 --> 00:14:15,460 done, it doesn't really matter. 256 00:14:15,460 --> 00:14:16,780 And I could have stopped. 257 00:14:16,780 --> 00:14:18,460 I'm like, okay, tomorrow it will be better. 258 00:14:18,460 --> 00:14:19,900 And it, it never is. 259 00:14:20,002 --> 00:14:20,332 Yes. 260 00:14:20,362 --> 00:14:23,932 No, we're hearing that that's, uh, comes across really powerfully, just 261 00:14:23,932 --> 00:14:26,752 the, uh, sheer amount that is going on. 262 00:14:27,032 --> 00:14:31,982 And uh, uh, I think that's recognizing that potentially it is infinite. 263 00:14:31,982 --> 00:14:35,852 And into that you've three times said you want something. 264 00:14:36,129 --> 00:14:40,089 And in interesting, I noticed that it gets to 20 past six. 265 00:14:40,389 --> 00:14:42,609 Oh, and then something happens. 266 00:14:42,609 --> 00:14:45,219 You just, it, it just almost, it slips in. 267 00:14:45,519 --> 00:14:48,759 You said you just do something and then it's five past seven. 268 00:14:49,059 --> 00:14:55,899 So what we hear is something very different in that time between the, I 269 00:14:55,899 --> 00:15:01,059 want, and you're very clear about the importance of eating healthily, seeing 270 00:15:01,059 --> 00:15:02,529 your family and, and so many things. 271 00:15:02,829 --> 00:15:06,639 And yet in the moment something else happens. 272 00:15:06,939 --> 00:15:12,099 How does it sound to you when you say that 20 par it gets to 20 past six? 273 00:15:12,349 --> 00:15:13,789 Well that's quite passive, isn't it? 274 00:15:13,789 --> 00:15:17,929 It's like, oh, it's just, I've just noticed that it's, it's 20 past six. 275 00:15:18,229 --> 00:15:21,289 And I think I'll be noticing the time that'll be getting, you know, 276 00:15:21,289 --> 00:15:22,189 it'd be half past five, I think. 277 00:15:22,189 --> 00:15:24,679 Great, I've got about half an hour left and I. I'll speed up and 278 00:15:24,679 --> 00:15:25,669 I'll try and get more stuff done. 279 00:15:25,669 --> 00:15:28,219 And it's oh six, I'll flip, I've not quite finished it, but I could 280 00:15:28,219 --> 00:15:32,209 just, uh, ' cause I want, you know, ideally by 10, past quarter, past 281 00:15:32,209 --> 00:15:35,479 six, you need to be starting to review next day's tasks and shut, 282 00:15:35,509 --> 00:15:36,919 you know, have a bit a shutdown down. 283 00:15:37,069 --> 00:15:40,039 Cal Newport talks about his sort of shutdown routine, which 284 00:15:40,039 --> 00:15:42,529 is very helpful, but I'm like, oh, but I haven't done that. 285 00:15:42,529 --> 00:15:45,709 And that's when I start panicking of there's this I haven't done 286 00:15:45,709 --> 00:15:47,299 and I just need to get this done. 287 00:15:47,329 --> 00:15:50,539 'cause I've been really in, into some deep work and doing some other stuff. 288 00:15:50,839 --> 00:15:54,529 And I guess there is that thing about, there's no calls or anything past five 289 00:15:54,529 --> 00:15:59,659 o'clock, so that time afterwards is, is you mop up and sort everything out time. 290 00:15:59,959 --> 00:16:03,469 So I guess it's a slight feeling of panic at, at 20 past six perhaps. 291 00:16:03,514 --> 00:16:04,474 There's a slight feeling of panic. 292 00:16:04,504 --> 00:16:08,764 And you said the, the, the, you talked about an ideal for when 293 00:16:08,764 --> 00:16:12,004 you would have a sort of wind down time, what is that ideal? 294 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:18,400 Well, I think ideally if it's six o'clock I stopped and I reviewed the 295 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:20,350 stuff I needed to do the next day. 296 00:16:20,650 --> 00:16:24,280 And, 'cause I, I, I really love doing my full focus plan away, 297 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:26,260 you know, three priorities, check what I've gotta do next day. 298 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,680 And invariably when I do that, I find something that I've forgotten to do 299 00:16:29,890 --> 00:16:33,250 that is really urgent like download the slides that I need for the eight 300 00:16:33,250 --> 00:16:37,094 o'clock session the next morning and then I spend the time doing 301 00:16:37,094 --> 00:16:39,794 that and suddenly, you know, it's an hour, another hour has gone past. 302 00:16:39,944 --> 00:16:40,234 Okay. 303 00:16:40,924 --> 00:16:45,448 So, we are hearing about a, a more realistic time, like six o'clock 304 00:16:45,688 --> 00:16:50,218 or whenever works for you and you find something that has to be done. 305 00:16:50,518 --> 00:16:53,116 But that sounds, that, that happens from time to time that 306 00:16:53,116 --> 00:16:54,676 would not always be the case. 307 00:16:54,676 --> 00:16:55,246 Is that right? 308 00:16:55,396 --> 00:16:59,131 It's probably the case at least 50, 60% of the time. 309 00:16:59,431 --> 00:17:02,641 Because I've been focusing on, on, on, on, on something else. 310 00:17:02,641 --> 00:17:05,530 Like yesterday, we, I was developing a pod course. 311 00:17:05,530 --> 00:17:07,030 I was having to record lots of stuff. 312 00:17:07,300 --> 00:17:10,540 Things have taken a lot longer than I thought they were gonna take. 313 00:17:10,540 --> 00:17:14,080 So that slipped into the admin time, the email time, the replying to customers 314 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:15,310 and clients and things like that. 315 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:16,960 So those become urgent. 316 00:17:17,110 --> 00:17:20,860 And if we go back to this, that there's, there is no end to this. 317 00:17:20,860 --> 00:17:22,240 There is, it is. 318 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:25,270 Um, there's always going to be something, but notice it 319 00:17:25,270 --> 00:17:27,910 slips in, it just gets to that. 320 00:17:27,910 --> 00:17:33,280 That is, that is the, what we are trying to do is be aware, bring 321 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,850 to the realm of consciousness, things that are just happening. 322 00:17:37,150 --> 00:17:41,140 And what is a realistic time that you would need that would 323 00:17:41,140 --> 00:17:47,117 allow you to, um, give yourself that space to have a, a stop? 324 00:17:47,215 --> 00:17:48,775 Oh, that's inter, that's very interesting. 325 00:17:48,805 --> 00:17:52,015 'cause actually, realistically, I think if I start doing my shut 326 00:17:52,225 --> 00:17:55,285 down routine about six quarter by six, that gives me enough time. 327 00:17:55,285 --> 00:18:01,105 But then I, it isn't, so realistically, if I started, if I'd reviewed my 328 00:18:01,105 --> 00:18:06,175 emails and started it at half five, so like what's the really urgent thing? 329 00:18:06,295 --> 00:18:09,865 You know, is there anything that that is absolutely time critical 330 00:18:09,865 --> 00:18:13,137 for tomorrow, then that would give me a much better buffer time. 331 00:18:13,237 --> 00:18:16,537 What's coming across in the energy of this conversation. 332 00:18:16,537 --> 00:18:19,277 Rachel, if, uh, is you're describing something that you, 333 00:18:19,277 --> 00:18:23,402 you, you would want and that is to, um, eat healthy, see your family. 334 00:18:23,402 --> 00:18:28,563 And, and I'm also picking up a real energy in what you're doing that 335 00:18:28,863 --> 00:18:31,803 I'm guessing, I don't know, but I'm guessing you really enjoy it. 336 00:18:32,103 --> 00:18:36,418 So I I, I, I'm actually hearing something that's kind of almost ac 337 00:18:36,718 --> 00:18:40,543 academic in your head about this is what you should do and actually I'm 338 00:18:40,543 --> 00:18:43,003 wondering about what heart's desire is. 339 00:18:43,153 --> 00:18:46,423 Yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head here, because actually when I 340 00:18:46,423 --> 00:18:50,683 really think about it, you know, I, I really enjoy what I do and, and often my 341 00:18:50,683 --> 00:18:55,903 days are so crammed with, with meetings and obligations that it, I haven't had 342 00:18:56,083 --> 00:18:59,923 the time, and I do try and put this into my diary, but often to get to 343 00:18:59,923 --> 00:19:02,118 the stuff that I, I, I really enjoy. 344 00:19:02,118 --> 00:19:05,748 And I really enjoy my work and there's stuff that I, I just start 345 00:19:05,748 --> 00:19:08,088 to get into and I really enjoy doing. 346 00:19:08,388 --> 00:19:12,078 And 'cause you don't have, you know, after work between 5 and 6:30 and 347 00:19:12,078 --> 00:19:15,078 I think, you know, people at their practices, once the patients have 348 00:19:15,078 --> 00:19:18,228 gone, that's when you can get into doing some of the stuff, which is 349 00:19:18,228 --> 00:19:21,258 quite, you know, yes there's all the paperwork, but there's other stuff 350 00:19:21,258 --> 00:19:24,215 that's quite rewarding and, because you haven't got those interruptions, that's 351 00:19:24,215 --> 00:19:25,445 sort of your time to get on with it. 352 00:19:25,475 --> 00:19:28,415 But then suddenly you've got the family stuff that you also want to do. 353 00:19:28,745 --> 00:19:32,045 And the phrase, you know, I've been reading some books around the 354 00:19:32,045 --> 00:19:35,345 second half of life and workaholism and all this sort of stuff. 355 00:19:35,345 --> 00:19:38,435 So part of me is thinking, you know, there's, I guess there's a 356 00:19:38,435 --> 00:19:43,475 part of slight shame thing going on for me that am I a workaholic? 357 00:19:43,825 --> 00:19:47,575 'Cause I, I, I would quite happily keep working and working 358 00:19:47,575 --> 00:19:50,635 'cause I enjoy it and I'm engaged and it's when I can create. 359 00:19:50,635 --> 00:19:53,485 But I don't, the other bit of me doesn't want to, I want 360 00:19:53,485 --> 00:19:54,265 to have time for my family. 361 00:19:54,265 --> 00:19:58,615 I enjoy being with my, with my family, but it's this, it's this 362 00:19:58,645 --> 00:20:02,965 tussle.. And I do feel like I'm being pulled away from my work sometimes 363 00:20:03,254 --> 00:20:06,284 No thank you, uh, Rachel for that honesty. 364 00:20:06,314 --> 00:20:08,684 That is, I think you speak for all of us. 365 00:20:08,684 --> 00:20:11,144 Where there is real of, there is real conflict. 366 00:20:11,444 --> 00:20:12,254 And that's okay. 367 00:20:12,254 --> 00:20:15,404 And we notice again, what your colleagues often said, 368 00:20:15,404 --> 00:20:16,604 what will other people think? 369 00:20:16,604 --> 00:20:19,994 And often it's about an expectation that is around us that's 370 00:20:19,994 --> 00:20:22,574 often, um, unspoken, but there. 371 00:20:22,634 --> 00:20:25,694 And it's once we can be honest with ourselves and those 372 00:20:25,694 --> 00:20:29,594 around us to work out, okay, what, what do we do with this? 373 00:20:29,894 --> 00:20:33,134 Here we see what this is and what do, what do I really want? 374 00:20:33,434 --> 00:20:38,474 And it may be having some deals, uh, with yourself that allows you to be 375 00:20:38,474 --> 00:20:41,744 able to indulge that which you love. 376 00:20:42,044 --> 00:20:44,384 Uh, and, and we're not saying you don't love your family. 377 00:20:44,444 --> 00:20:47,655 It, it's just that there's a, there's, there's a, there's a push pull. 378 00:20:47,955 --> 00:20:51,945 And to be able to find a way that is, is right for you, um, 379 00:20:52,005 --> 00:20:54,285 rather than something that is. 380 00:20:54,565 --> 00:20:58,015 Perhaps conforms to what would be an expectation, whether it's a 381 00:20:58,015 --> 00:21:00,175 6:30 every day or whatever it is. 382 00:21:00,475 --> 00:21:01,795 So where does this take you? 383 00:21:01,795 --> 00:21:04,315 What's, what's going on in your head now, Rachel? 384 00:21:04,465 --> 00:21:07,345 What's going on in my head is, you know, it is like, do I really 385 00:21:07,345 --> 00:21:10,230 want to stop work at 6:30 because. 386 00:21:10,530 --> 00:21:14,625 But I do, I do want to, because I do not want work to be my entire life. 387 00:21:14,925 --> 00:21:17,822 And I know that my other colleagues listening to the podcast, but also 388 00:21:17,822 --> 00:21:20,372 said that they do not want work to take up their whole life because 389 00:21:20,372 --> 00:21:22,142 the busy life is the empty life. 390 00:21:22,442 --> 00:21:27,258 And it, it comes at a cost, it comes at a cost of family and 391 00:21:27,258 --> 00:21:31,338 friends and hobbies and, and just having that, that other world and 392 00:21:31,338 --> 00:21:32,628 doing other stuff that you enjoy. 393 00:21:32,628 --> 00:21:35,178 And it is, it is interesting because when you're working like 394 00:21:35,178 --> 00:21:36,528 that feels like your whole world. 395 00:21:36,738 --> 00:21:38,598 And then when you're off playing tennis from the garden, work 396 00:21:38,598 --> 00:21:39,978 doesn't matter so much anymore. 397 00:21:40,278 --> 00:21:44,628 It's just, it's just this sort of head, head mindset shift, isn't it? 398 00:21:44,928 --> 00:21:47,598 And can I just sort of stop here and go a little bit meta now? 399 00:21:47,898 --> 00:21:49,938 Is this really the heart of behavior change? 400 00:21:49,938 --> 00:21:53,688 You've got to really work out what the, what the underlying deep 401 00:21:53,688 --> 00:21:57,168 reasons are, rather than just sort of scooting along the surface and 402 00:21:57,168 --> 00:21:58,728 being very transactional about it? 403 00:21:58,983 --> 00:22:00,033 Well, we, we can do. 404 00:22:00,033 --> 00:22:04,413 That's what, um, if when we listen carefully, we will hear. 405 00:22:04,413 --> 00:22:07,113 So I'm hearing this tussle earlier on. 406 00:22:07,323 --> 00:22:09,633 I actually thought, oh, this is, what's going on here? 407 00:22:09,933 --> 00:22:13,398 Now, my job is just to be curious and to be kind. 408 00:22:13,608 --> 00:22:16,878 It's, it's, it's not, um, doing anything that's probing or it's 409 00:22:16,878 --> 00:22:18,768 inappropriate, but I will go further. 410 00:22:19,008 --> 00:22:23,778 But for example, we can keep it much lighter and we could do incremental 411 00:22:23,778 --> 00:22:28,658 change where you, set boundaries when you need to set a boundary, to get 412 00:22:28,658 --> 00:22:31,478 to your ideals, you give yourself certain amount of time and you, 413 00:22:31,778 --> 00:22:35,828 um, instead of leaving at seven, you leave at quarter, at seven. 414 00:22:35,828 --> 00:22:37,178 You know, we can do it at that way. 415 00:22:37,478 --> 00:22:41,438 And that very often I find there's something else going on. 416 00:22:41,738 --> 00:22:45,548 And if we can help people to get to the heart of what this is about, 417 00:22:45,848 --> 00:22:49,568 they can go away and explore it for themselves if they're serious 418 00:22:49,568 --> 00:22:54,548 and have conversations with others around them, and then get support. 419 00:22:54,548 --> 00:22:56,918 Because often we feel quite alone in it. 420 00:22:57,218 --> 00:23:00,488 And actually there's people around us who can support us with that. 421 00:23:00,788 --> 00:23:03,218 So in answer to your question, it it, it's kind of both. 422 00:23:03,218 --> 00:23:07,568 And I can take it to quite a practical, more light level when, uh, 423 00:23:07,568 --> 00:23:11,793 often, um, GPs and nurse health PR practitioners will have to do that. 424 00:23:12,163 --> 00:23:16,010 And there's times, you know, where I've had a, a GP, when I went to 425 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,310 my GP, 'cause I was just feeling very, very tired all the time. 426 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,280 And he, what he did was he just pushed his computer away and 427 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:23,510 he said, describe your week. 428 00:23:23,510 --> 00:23:25,730 And I just said a few things, what was going on his head. 429 00:23:25,730 --> 00:23:27,530 And he said, how does that sound to you? 430 00:23:27,830 --> 00:23:29,630 I said, well, it's, it's a bit crazy. 431 00:23:29,930 --> 00:23:33,230 And, and what he did was he listened for a minute and a half. 432 00:23:33,530 --> 00:23:36,590 And he asked me a question, and it was transforming, Rachel. 433 00:23:36,590 --> 00:23:38,720 And I, I, I still remember it this moment. 434 00:23:38,770 --> 00:23:42,335 And, and something about him pushing, that he just pushed away and just turned 435 00:23:42,335 --> 00:23:45,875 and gave me for a moment, undivided attention, it was brilliant, but it 436 00:23:45,875 --> 00:23:49,895 got to something that was, I was, I'd become victim of my circumstances. 437 00:23:50,225 --> 00:23:54,125 I just said, oh, it's, I've got to do this and I've got to, and basically 438 00:23:54,125 --> 00:23:56,105 said, get real and make some choices. 439 00:23:56,105 --> 00:23:56,915 If that's what you want. 440 00:23:56,915 --> 00:23:58,595 That's, this is where you're heading. 441 00:23:58,815 --> 00:24:00,825 And I, I love that question he asked you. 442 00:24:00,915 --> 00:24:02,145 How does that sound to you? 443 00:24:02,145 --> 00:24:05,745 Because I think I, I might have said in that situation, gosh, 444 00:24:05,745 --> 00:24:07,725 that sounds really busy to me. 445 00:24:07,875 --> 00:24:09,315 That sounds really difficult. 446 00:24:09,465 --> 00:24:11,775 And probably at that point, your defenses would've come up 447 00:24:11,775 --> 00:24:13,245 and gone, no, well, it's just what I do, blah, blah, blah. 448 00:24:13,245 --> 00:24:16,695 But the fact you put it in your court, how does that sound to you? 449 00:24:16,995 --> 00:24:18,495 That that was the key, wasn't it? 450 00:24:18,525 --> 00:24:20,115 'Cause then you went, ah, 451 00:24:21,144 --> 00:24:22,823 Exactly, exactly. 452 00:24:23,123 --> 00:24:26,213 So it's, it's, it, it can be done at both hand in in 453 00:24:26,213 --> 00:24:27,563 answer to that, uh, question. 454 00:24:27,563 --> 00:24:30,233 And these are, uh, you've, you've, you've spotted something 455 00:24:30,233 --> 00:24:33,773 really important that we're trying to share responsibility. 456 00:24:33,893 --> 00:24:38,213 Um, not that they've, the, uh, practitioner has to be 457 00:24:38,213 --> 00:24:39,413 this expert all the time. 458 00:24:39,413 --> 00:24:41,963 Just help them facilitate a conversation whether you hear 459 00:24:41,963 --> 00:24:46,816 themselves and have some sort of agency in this too, with support. 460 00:24:46,816 --> 00:24:50,326 It's not an alone thing, but to try to find a way through. 461 00:24:50,626 --> 00:24:56,026 If I go back to, to my situation, it, it's striking me that there 462 00:24:56,026 --> 00:25:00,646 needs to be a good enough reward for the behavior change for it to, 463 00:25:00,736 --> 00:25:02,506 for it to happen, doesn't there? 464 00:25:02,506 --> 00:25:05,086 Because if you, you're changing your behavior for some sort of lofty 465 00:25:05,086 --> 00:25:08,056 idea of something in the future, and you are not getting any immediate 466 00:25:08,056 --> 00:25:12,136 reward or, or feedback, then there's just no impetus to change. 467 00:25:12,141 --> 00:25:14,596 You know, you really either need like a burning platform, like, you know. 468 00:25:14,896 --> 00:25:17,636 you, you're gonna die next week unless you do, unless you do this. 469 00:25:17,636 --> 00:25:19,676 Or you know, you can literally see yourself burning out 470 00:25:19,676 --> 00:25:20,456 in front of your eyes. 471 00:25:20,756 --> 00:25:23,786 But when it's just very insidious and that you don't get that immediate 472 00:25:23,816 --> 00:25:28,136 thing, the reward does need to be more than the impetus to keep doing it. 473 00:25:28,136 --> 00:25:31,796 So how, how do you, how do you up the stakes in that? 474 00:25:31,826 --> 00:25:34,196 I mean, you could do it live with me if you, if you want to now, but 475 00:25:34,196 --> 00:25:35,726 I'm, I'm presuming that's part of it. 476 00:25:35,726 --> 00:25:39,345 Is that part of it that you do now or would you sort of wait a bit to do that? 477 00:25:39,431 --> 00:25:41,471 Well, we, we can do it now. 478 00:25:41,501 --> 00:25:45,486 I mean, you described when you do manage to get away early and you get 479 00:25:45,689 --> 00:25:49,109 playing tennis or you're doing something actually in that, when you're there, 480 00:25:49,409 --> 00:25:51,479 what I heard was everything was fine. 481 00:25:51,479 --> 00:25:55,859 You know, it, it, it, it didn't matter that certain things wouldn't get done. 482 00:25:55,859 --> 00:25:56,999 That's, that's what I heard. 483 00:25:57,349 --> 00:26:02,253 So what I want to see is in, in terms of reward, what is it like 484 00:26:02,283 --> 00:26:05,953 for you, Rachel, honestly, when you do manage to get away on time? 485 00:26:06,329 --> 00:26:08,436 What's interesting, Alasdair, 'cause you were talking about, you 486 00:26:08,436 --> 00:26:11,466 know, so I used to have a tennis, a tennis course at six o'clock. 487 00:26:11,466 --> 00:26:15,331 So I would, I had to stop at court past five to get ready and to go. 488 00:26:15,571 --> 00:26:17,281 And I did that every single week. 489 00:26:17,281 --> 00:26:21,571 And you, you, you talk to GPs, and if they've got a, a child 490 00:26:21,571 --> 00:26:23,401 to pick up, they will get away. 491 00:26:23,401 --> 00:26:26,131 If they've got, you know, if you've gotta go to parents' evening, they 492 00:26:26,131 --> 00:26:28,171 will get away nine times outta 10. 493 00:26:28,231 --> 00:26:31,741 So we can do it when we have that impetus and that thing that we've 494 00:26:31,741 --> 00:26:35,551 got to go to, the thing I struggled with is it's the self, it's the 495 00:26:35,551 --> 00:26:39,421 boundaries with self when there isn't that, you know, that time 496 00:26:39,421 --> 00:26:41,251 limited, that time bound thing. 497 00:26:41,551 --> 00:26:44,851 I guess the reward is perhaps less and not so immediate when it's, 498 00:26:45,181 --> 00:26:49,621 you know, just a, just an evening in, you know, routine with, with, 499 00:26:49,711 --> 00:26:51,991 with the family, everyone's come home, everyone's a bit knackered 500 00:26:53,241 --> 00:26:53,671 Yes. 501 00:26:53,731 --> 00:26:58,531 and perhaps a bit moy, um, and tired and, you know, maybe not a, 502 00:26:58,681 --> 00:27:00,481 not all around or, or, or whatever. 503 00:27:00,481 --> 00:27:02,851 It's, yes, it's, it's a different sort of reward. 504 00:27:03,001 --> 00:27:03,425 Yes. 505 00:27:03,635 --> 00:27:08,465 Well, the, what we're hearing is the, this is the Rachel who feels she 506 00:27:08,525 --> 00:27:10,775 ought to be there, and that's fine. 507 00:27:10,775 --> 00:27:13,415 But you know, because you are, uh, committed to other people 508 00:27:13,415 --> 00:27:18,215 around you, um, that is, as you rightly described of colleagues. 509 00:27:18,425 --> 00:27:21,515 When they've got to do something for others, then they commit. 510 00:27:21,815 --> 00:27:26,405 And this is what the people are so often driven by obligation 511 00:27:26,465 --> 00:27:28,385 and feeling, I ought to do this. 512 00:27:28,385 --> 00:27:32,442 Now what I'm hearing there is actually, again, there's a 513 00:27:32,442 --> 00:27:35,372 very different thing at play. 514 00:27:35,372 --> 00:27:41,882 So the joy you get in your work is sometimes winning over the 515 00:27:41,882 --> 00:27:48,032 humdrum expectation and duty that on a sometimes day to day is not 516 00:27:48,032 --> 00:27:50,342 going to, uh, give you that reward. 517 00:27:50,548 --> 00:27:52,258 I think you've hit the nail on the head. 518 00:27:52,258 --> 00:27:52,888 Alasdair. 519 00:27:53,218 --> 00:27:55,708 I think that is genuinely what happens quite a lot. 520 00:27:55,708 --> 00:27:57,958 'Cause you're getting a lot of the dopamine from the drive, from getting 521 00:27:57,958 --> 00:27:59,488 things done and getting things achieved. 522 00:27:59,798 --> 00:28:03,308 But there is a, a, a reward to, you know, when I, when I am present, 523 00:28:03,308 --> 00:28:05,948 when I've got the time and space and I'm cooking and people come in 524 00:28:05,948 --> 00:28:09,308 and we have, you know, cups of tea, I really enjoy those times as well. 525 00:28:09,308 --> 00:28:13,028 So when I'm getting the quality time with the family and just 526 00:28:13,028 --> 00:28:16,268 there for them, then that is, that feels really good as well. 527 00:28:16,268 --> 00:28:19,148 and I really, I really enjoy that as well. 528 00:28:19,148 --> 00:28:21,178 But I can't guarantee that that's gonna happen, I guess. 529 00:28:21,338 --> 00:28:21,548 No. 530 00:28:21,548 --> 00:28:22,178 Absolutely. 531 00:28:22,183 --> 00:28:23,558 And, and all of this is okay. 532 00:28:23,558 --> 00:28:26,468 What we're now just being is being really honest about where things 533 00:28:26,468 --> 00:28:31,688 are at, recognizing that the real conflict is one, whereby there is, 534 00:28:31,688 --> 00:28:37,058 this is thankfully and happily about fullness of life and, uh, the, the 535 00:28:37,058 --> 00:28:38,768 choices that we make within that. 536 00:28:39,068 --> 00:28:44,708 And actually how, how you, how you find an accommodation that is right 537 00:28:44,708 --> 00:28:49,012 for you and doesn't become a circular conversation of keeping on thinking 538 00:28:49,012 --> 00:28:51,352 I ought to, I should I, right? 539 00:28:51,652 --> 00:28:53,482 If you want, if you're serious about it. 540 00:28:53,782 --> 00:28:54,772 Time for some planning. 541 00:28:54,922 --> 00:28:56,357 Okay, so what do I do? 542 00:28:56,507 --> 00:28:57,227 Great question. 543 00:28:57,527 --> 00:28:57,887 You've. 544 00:28:58,187 --> 00:29:02,447 You've begun a lot of the, an you, you've actually come up, if you think 545 00:29:02,447 --> 00:29:06,407 through what you've talked about, you, you've begun your, your plan. 546 00:29:06,707 --> 00:29:10,907 What do you think in terms of timings, what's realistic? 547 00:29:11,087 --> 00:29:12,227 How many days? 548 00:29:12,317 --> 00:29:14,177 Just, just you, you tell me. 549 00:29:14,357 --> 00:29:16,697 So I've already said that I need to start the shutdown 550 00:29:16,697 --> 00:29:18,317 sequence earlier, haven't I? 551 00:29:18,317 --> 00:29:19,247 Said at half five? 552 00:29:19,277 --> 00:29:22,397 'cause then, then I, I notice the urgent stuff that I really do need to do. 553 00:29:22,397 --> 00:29:23,627 I noticed that earlier. 554 00:29:23,927 --> 00:29:26,567 There's that sometimes I get a bit time blind lost in time. 555 00:29:26,567 --> 00:29:28,667 So there's things, something about just even putting alarm on 556 00:29:28,667 --> 00:29:30,647 my phone to, to help me do that. 557 00:29:30,947 --> 00:29:33,497 Sometimes having, having that, that deadline. 558 00:29:33,497 --> 00:29:35,782 Sometimes external deadlines do, do help. 559 00:29:35,782 --> 00:29:38,272 And I've been doing quite a lot of exercise first thing in the morning, 560 00:29:38,272 --> 00:29:41,422 but actually maybe working first thing in the morning and shifting exercise 561 00:29:41,422 --> 00:29:44,572 till later means you stop, then you finish your exercise, then, then 562 00:29:44,572 --> 00:29:46,132 you, then you go home or whatever. 563 00:29:46,132 --> 00:29:48,472 But that hasn't really worked for me very well, particularly if 564 00:29:48,472 --> 00:29:50,752 it's like self-motivated exercise. 565 00:29:50,782 --> 00:29:52,522 'Cause I'll just carry on working through it. 566 00:29:52,522 --> 00:29:54,172 It's much better if I'm in a group or something. 567 00:29:54,172 --> 00:29:55,372 'cause that forces me to go. 568 00:29:55,672 --> 00:29:56,182 Um, 569 00:29:56,482 --> 00:29:59,902 I, I think knowing what the reward is, actually knowing what the rest of the 570 00:29:59,902 --> 00:30:03,022 family are doing, so there's a set up knowing when they're gonna be home and 571 00:30:03,052 --> 00:30:06,532 when things need to be, when they're gonna be around, so that I can then 572 00:30:06,532 --> 00:30:09,502 plot in that, that quality conversation. 573 00:30:09,502 --> 00:30:14,212 And I think it's probably focusing on the quality time that I'm gonna 574 00:30:14,212 --> 00:30:17,482 have with them, rather than the, I've gotta cook a meal and, you know, 575 00:30:17,482 --> 00:30:19,312 the, the, the chores that need doing. 576 00:30:19,612 --> 00:30:24,472 Or maybe even putting in something that's really nice for me, like 577 00:30:24,472 --> 00:30:27,922 going to water my garden or seeds or something that feels a bit more 578 00:30:27,922 --> 00:30:32,182 relaxing and, and, you know, we talk about in our, some of our training 579 00:30:32,182 --> 00:30:35,032 about the, the, the zone, the transition zone between work and home. 580 00:30:35,032 --> 00:30:38,392 And if you are working at home, you've got to sort of create that somehow 581 00:30:38,392 --> 00:30:42,442 haven't used, even walking around the block or, or something that I could 582 00:30:42,442 --> 00:30:47,002 do to, to actually delineate, no work has stopped, we're doing this, but it, 583 00:30:47,002 --> 00:30:49,102 there needs to be a reward for stopping. 584 00:30:49,252 --> 00:30:50,782 Yeah, no, that's, that's really clear. 585 00:30:50,782 --> 00:30:55,972 So we've got, uh, half past five, and you find some way in which you, uh, 586 00:30:56,032 --> 00:30:57,982 actually, uh, have an alarm there. 587 00:30:58,192 --> 00:31:00,622 And that tells you, uh, that you're beginning that. 588 00:31:00,772 --> 00:31:04,702 We've also heard that sometimes having an accountability to a group if you're 589 00:31:04,702 --> 00:31:07,732 doing exercise, if it's just for yourself, that doesn't work so well. 590 00:31:08,032 --> 00:31:11,302 Then thinking about your, uh, family, it's about being able to 591 00:31:11,302 --> 00:31:14,902 be sure there will be some quality time and however many times a week, 592 00:31:14,902 --> 00:31:16,342 let's be realistic about that. 593 00:31:16,642 --> 00:31:19,522 But we've also, and we could hear the energy in your voice, of 594 00:31:19,522 --> 00:31:23,842 course, chores, and that's going to be part of it, and that's okay. 595 00:31:24,142 --> 00:31:27,712 Uh, then with, so within all of this mix, we find something 596 00:31:27,712 --> 00:31:29,902 that improves the situation. 597 00:31:29,962 --> 00:31:36,142 We may not get to the equivalent of no more sugar, that polarity, 598 00:31:36,442 --> 00:31:40,852 but we can improve and it's down to you with others with support. 599 00:31:41,319 --> 00:31:43,089 So, so where do you leave people with then? 600 00:31:43,089 --> 00:31:48,219 Is that typically where you'd finish things in a, in a motivational 601 00:31:48,219 --> 00:31:49,329 interview and conversation? 602 00:31:49,329 --> 00:31:52,099 Are there any, is there anything else that you might add in there? 603 00:31:52,131 --> 00:31:54,711 well, towards the, it, it depends what we're doing. 604 00:31:54,711 --> 00:31:59,031 I mean, in this one, I'm, pushing you perhaps a bit, being a bit firmer 605 00:31:59,031 --> 00:32:03,741 perhaps, if you like, because you know, that is where I feel like I can do. 606 00:32:03,741 --> 00:32:06,891 Partly we, we know each other and I know something of what 607 00:32:07,191 --> 00:32:09,171 I want to, to, to demonstrate. 608 00:32:09,171 --> 00:32:13,371 But what I'm, I would try to do is make somebody feel okay about 609 00:32:13,401 --> 00:32:14,931 what the next day is going to be. 610 00:32:14,931 --> 00:32:18,351 So I might then just say, Rachel, from our conversation. 611 00:32:18,651 --> 00:32:20,376 What, what's, what's going to be different? 612 00:32:20,782 --> 00:32:23,032 And so I know that when I've done some training with you 613 00:32:23,032 --> 00:32:27,892 before, you've also mentioned setbacks and what we do with that. 614 00:32:27,892 --> 00:32:32,362 Because what, what happens when this evening, I just get, I, I've got all 615 00:32:32,362 --> 00:32:35,992 these good intentions and maybe I manage it tonight and tomorrow, but 616 00:32:35,992 --> 00:32:38,572 then the next day I just completely forget and it's 10 past seven again, 617 00:32:38,572 --> 00:32:40,342 I think, oh, I've screwed it up. 618 00:32:40,342 --> 00:32:42,232 I'm never gonna, I'm never gonna manage this. 619 00:32:42,532 --> 00:32:45,712 Is that something that just completely derails people then? 620 00:32:45,862 --> 00:32:49,527 It, it it can do, because again, a word we've talked about a lot 621 00:32:49,527 --> 00:32:53,217 is, you recognizing what we'd like to do, ought to do, should 622 00:32:53,217 --> 00:32:54,987 do, and expectation, all of that. 623 00:32:55,077 --> 00:32:59,397 And in the cycle of behavior change that we use in motivational interviewing, 624 00:32:59,637 --> 00:33:03,897 there's a, a stage, between maintenance of the new behavior, which is leaving 625 00:33:03,897 --> 00:33:09,174 work, at or near to 6:30 every evening, and, uh, finding a reward that 626 00:33:09,174 --> 00:33:11,274 would, uh, work for you and so forth. 627 00:33:11,274 --> 00:33:12,684 So that's the new behaviors. 628 00:33:12,984 --> 00:33:18,724 And what can happen is we can over time relapse to, uh, the, the default 629 00:33:18,724 --> 00:33:24,034 setting, which is the old established patterns of, um, just carrying on, 630 00:33:24,334 --> 00:33:25,894 uh, and, and working till eight. 631 00:33:26,104 --> 00:33:29,344 But actually there is another stage, and that's called laps, 632 00:33:29,584 --> 00:33:32,074 and it's a blip or a setback. 633 00:33:32,164 --> 00:33:36,994 And what we try to recognize is that the reality of life means there will 634 00:33:36,994 --> 00:33:39,484 be setbacks from which we can learn. 635 00:33:39,784 --> 00:33:43,264 So if we just try to withhold judgment about ourselves to 636 00:33:43,264 --> 00:33:47,104 say, this is what happens, okay, what's, what, what went on there? 637 00:33:47,404 --> 00:33:48,574 And explore that. 638 00:33:48,874 --> 00:33:52,204 We can actually discover something, create our own 639 00:33:52,204 --> 00:33:54,901 wisdom or, build on our life. 640 00:33:55,201 --> 00:33:58,141 Knowledge and wisdom through these experiences because 641 00:33:58,141 --> 00:33:59,251 we all have setbacks. 642 00:33:59,281 --> 00:34:03,571 So yes, that's a lapse is, uh, a natural part of, I mean, who among 643 00:34:03,571 --> 00:34:05,161 us don't have setbacks and lapses? 644 00:34:05,161 --> 00:34:06,181 It's just the reality. 645 00:34:06,481 --> 00:34:10,591 But sadly, people can feel, oh, I'm back to square one, it was all going so well. 646 00:34:10,591 --> 00:34:13,621 I've just, and this is why, this phenomenon of people joining a gym, 647 00:34:13,831 --> 00:34:17,041 and they do really well for four weeks and then, you know, it, it, it 648 00:34:17,041 --> 00:34:19,501 get, gets challenging and then they say, oh, and I've stopped going. 649 00:34:19,591 --> 00:34:21,991 And actually they, they, they hadn't really, they, they just 650 00:34:21,991 --> 00:34:24,571 had a, a temporary thing and it's just hard to get back on. 651 00:34:24,571 --> 00:34:26,701 But actually it's, it's, reality. 652 00:34:26,914 --> 00:34:29,369 I, I love that idea of a lapse versus a relapse. 653 00:34:29,669 --> 00:34:31,679 So, you know, actually I, I had a relapse. 654 00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:34,769 I've gone back to default actually, no, I've just had a, a quick lapse. 655 00:34:35,069 --> 00:34:37,199 And you know what, I, I've been trying to play a lot more 656 00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:40,889 tennis recently and it's very frustrating game, can I just say? 657 00:34:41,309 --> 00:34:44,249 But every time I do a bad shot, I'm really trying to get myself into, 658 00:34:44,249 --> 00:34:47,609 rather than berating myself for the shot and going right, what can I learn 659 00:34:47,609 --> 00:34:48,929 from that shot that I just played? 660 00:34:49,049 --> 00:34:51,959 Oh, it's because I didn't stop before I hit the ball. 661 00:34:51,959 --> 00:34:54,209 It's because I didn't bend my legs when I hit it. 662 00:34:54,209 --> 00:34:55,649 It's so next time I will do this. 663 00:34:55,649 --> 00:34:56,909 And that's, really, really helped me. 664 00:34:56,909 --> 00:34:58,139 And if that, I love that. 665 00:34:58,139 --> 00:34:59,099 If you just apply that. 666 00:34:59,099 --> 00:35:02,339 So next time I work until 10 past seven and I'm really late for dinner and 667 00:35:02,339 --> 00:35:04,319 stuff, I go, okay, what happened there? 668 00:35:04,649 --> 00:35:07,499 What happened there in the system that could be, that could be 669 00:35:07,499 --> 00:35:10,559 changed, rather than beating myself and going, oh, you know. 670 00:35:10,642 --> 00:35:11,542 That's brilliant Rachel. 671 00:35:11,692 --> 00:35:16,882 And what comes across here is, you know, your commitment to your work and 672 00:35:16,882 --> 00:35:19,222 to others, your commitment to change. 673 00:35:19,222 --> 00:35:21,647 It really does come across very strongly. 674 00:35:21,647 --> 00:35:26,177 And, and within that, also what you've spotted is this importance of self-talk. 675 00:35:26,477 --> 00:35:29,717 You know, very often that expression, we berate ourselves. 676 00:35:30,017 --> 00:35:32,012 A a and that it's so unhelpful. 677 00:35:32,312 --> 00:35:34,952 You miss a short Oh, oh, okay. 678 00:35:34,952 --> 00:35:40,022 And just allow it to be neutral and the, the joy of being there in that moment. 679 00:35:40,022 --> 00:35:42,542 And then the learning about, as you said, the swing or 680 00:35:42,542 --> 00:35:43,682 the legs of what's going on. 681 00:35:43,982 --> 00:35:48,002 That's then when we can be at ease with ourselves and those around us. 682 00:35:48,302 --> 00:35:52,442 But there's so much judgment all too often on ourselves. 683 00:35:52,742 --> 00:35:55,592 Oh, I've messed up, I've screwed, this is just how I am. 684 00:35:55,592 --> 00:35:58,742 And then of course, we pile on this, onto ourselves. 685 00:35:58,742 --> 00:36:01,502 So I think you've spotted something really, really important, Rachel. 686 00:36:01,502 --> 00:36:01,952 Thank you. 687 00:36:02,102 --> 00:36:05,312 Well, I think that thing about judgment is so important because I 688 00:36:05,312 --> 00:36:08,492 think, you know, when you're, when you're a professional, you've got 689 00:36:08,492 --> 00:36:11,957 a lot of responsibility, there's judgment, if you, damned if you 690 00:36:11,957 --> 00:36:13,082 do, you're damned if you don't. 691 00:36:13,082 --> 00:36:16,922 So you judge yourself for staying late at work and you judge yourself 692 00:36:16,922 --> 00:36:18,572 for not staying late at work. 693 00:36:18,872 --> 00:36:21,632 And with all that judgment and shame then, then it becomes really 694 00:36:21,632 --> 00:36:24,797 hard, presumably to make any sort of positive behavior change. 695 00:36:25,063 --> 00:36:25,993 exactly. 696 00:36:26,113 --> 00:36:28,813 And what I think you've beautifully described that. 697 00:36:28,813 --> 00:36:32,323 So once we say, okay, that's we, as you say, damned if you do, damned if you 698 00:36:32,323 --> 00:36:33,643 don't, there's judgment all around us. 699 00:36:33,883 --> 00:36:35,083 Okay, that's where we're at. 700 00:36:35,383 --> 00:36:36,013 Let's get real. 701 00:36:36,013 --> 00:36:38,813 So what are we going to do?' Cause what we're doing is there, you're bringing 702 00:36:38,813 --> 00:36:41,963 to the realm of consciousness, things that are just around, we're noticing it. 703 00:36:42,263 --> 00:36:43,463 Okay, what should we do? 704 00:36:43,763 --> 00:36:46,643 Uh, I do tend to push people a little bit and, uh, I hope 705 00:36:46,643 --> 00:36:47,663 you've been okay with that. 706 00:36:47,766 --> 00:36:48,851 it is been one of our said. 707 00:36:48,881 --> 00:36:50,861 'Cause one of the things I've noticed with you is you 708 00:36:50,861 --> 00:36:52,451 are incredibly well there. 709 00:36:52,451 --> 00:36:54,191 There's a few skills that I've noticed for you. 710 00:36:54,191 --> 00:36:55,721 You're incredibly supportive. 711 00:36:55,721 --> 00:36:57,821 So I don't actually feel pushed at all. 712 00:36:57,821 --> 00:37:02,951 I feel like you are 100% on my side and you've been really kind and really, I 713 00:37:02,951 --> 00:37:04,751 feel just a lot of support from you. 714 00:37:04,751 --> 00:37:06,251 But the other thing I've noticed is you've been. 715 00:37:06,551 --> 00:37:09,881 Listening and noticing really, really hard. 716 00:37:09,881 --> 00:37:12,491 Like you've noticed thing that I knew you were going on for me, 717 00:37:12,491 --> 00:37:15,461 but I hadn't told you and but you just like picked up on that. 718 00:37:15,461 --> 00:37:19,811 So there's the noticing, there's a non-judgmentalness, if that's 719 00:37:19,811 --> 00:37:23,171 a word, or the non-judgment, which is really helpful. 720 00:37:23,201 --> 00:37:26,381 'Cause the minute there's any judgment, one just gets defensive, don't you? 721 00:37:26,705 --> 00:37:28,741 But I'm sure there's other skills that you've been using 722 00:37:28,741 --> 00:37:30,481 that I haven't mentioned. 723 00:37:30,481 --> 00:37:33,811 So if you want to get someone to, if you want to help someone 724 00:37:33,811 --> 00:37:38,041 to change their behavior, what other skills have you been using? 725 00:37:38,041 --> 00:37:40,921 I mean, you are so unconsciously competent at this, you probably 726 00:37:40,981 --> 00:37:42,481 don't even notice you are using them. 727 00:37:42,481 --> 00:37:45,991 But if you were to be training someone to do this, what would you be sort of 728 00:37:46,141 --> 00:37:46,471 Yes. 729 00:37:46,471 --> 00:37:47,671 You, you're, you're absolutely right. 730 00:37:47,671 --> 00:37:51,791 There are, I mean, the, the main thing is listening and, uh, simple 731 00:37:51,791 --> 00:37:55,851 reflections go a long way, uh, just to help somebody hear themselves. 732 00:37:56,151 --> 00:37:58,281 But there will be other techniques, for example, where 733 00:37:58,281 --> 00:37:59,721 there's a power imbalance. 734 00:38:00,071 --> 00:38:04,081 And a doctor or whoever, whoever the, the, the medical practitioner 735 00:38:04,081 --> 00:38:08,191 is they, they will sometimes, um, express more puzzlement, but 736 00:38:08,191 --> 00:38:12,181 something than they would ordinarily because they're, they're trying to 737 00:38:12,181 --> 00:38:16,471 convey that they're struggling to understand something to help the 738 00:38:16,471 --> 00:38:18,841 person feel more at ease to talk. 739 00:38:19,171 --> 00:38:23,371 So it, these used to be called the Columbo style after a a 1970s 740 00:38:23,371 --> 00:38:27,961 detective series Columbo where he, he, he just did the, uh, a 741 00:38:27,961 --> 00:38:32,131 refreshing way of working rather than it be that typical adversarial 742 00:38:32,131 --> 00:38:33,691 power, imbalanced way of working. 743 00:38:33,691 --> 00:38:35,071 So there's that style. 744 00:38:35,071 --> 00:38:38,611 We can do things called, I mean, we're getting into now technique, and I want 745 00:38:38,611 --> 00:38:40,441 to say that technique is secondary. 746 00:38:40,741 --> 00:38:44,071 Um, because firstly is, is about the quality of listening. 747 00:38:44,071 --> 00:38:48,991 But, um, often if we want people to be honest about how much they drink, 748 00:38:49,291 --> 00:38:52,531 uh, you know, I, I, I, I might, if I'm chatting with a colleague, say 749 00:38:52,696 --> 00:38:54,301 what I mean, what we're talking here? 750 00:38:54,306 --> 00:38:55,831 And, and I will overstate. 751 00:38:56,131 --> 00:38:57,271 So we're taking a guess. 752 00:38:57,271 --> 00:39:00,471 And so that in that moment, instead of it's not a couple of bottles wine, oh 753 00:39:00,471 --> 00:39:01,951 no, of course not, it's half a bottle. 754 00:39:02,101 --> 00:39:05,581 But in that moment, they feel better about telling us the truth. 755 00:39:05,881 --> 00:39:07,231 And this is because of judgment. 756 00:39:07,231 --> 00:39:11,424 So we help people feel comfortable about being honest with ourselves because as 757 00:39:11,424 --> 00:39:14,994 you heard in our conversation, if we're not being honest, we just get nowhere. 758 00:39:15,294 --> 00:39:19,674 So there are many, many techniques, but I, I, I want to emphasize, uh, Rachel, 759 00:39:19,674 --> 00:39:23,009 of course, we could never sort of, uh, uh, I'm, I'm not, I'm not saying it's 760 00:39:23,009 --> 00:39:27,629 a science or it's anything other than really being generous in listening. 761 00:39:27,629 --> 00:39:30,839 That's the main thing that takes us three quarters of the distance. 762 00:39:31,079 --> 00:39:32,609 The technique is secondary. 763 00:39:32,759 --> 00:39:33,629 Listening and noticing. 764 00:39:33,629 --> 00:39:34,589 I love the Colombo thing. 765 00:39:34,589 --> 00:39:37,799 I still remember him with this cigar going, Hmm, I'm just curious. 766 00:39:37,799 --> 00:39:39,239 Tell me, tell me more. 767 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:41,439 And then, then people really, really get to it. 768 00:39:41,439 --> 00:39:44,644 the, the suspect thinks they're dealing with the fool and they just 769 00:39:44,644 --> 00:39:45,994 feel at ease and they talk more. 770 00:39:46,054 --> 00:39:49,294 But he's, he's, he actually, he's a very clever script, but he's, he's, listen, 771 00:39:49,444 --> 00:39:54,784 Louis Thru does this, there's many very skillful journalists who manage 772 00:39:54,784 --> 00:39:58,744 to help people feel more at ease and talk more, and, and it's a, rather than 773 00:39:58,894 --> 00:40:03,064 just be too competitive or too clever, actually, that's partly the problem. 774 00:40:03,807 --> 00:40:08,607 Not everybody is gonna have access to a, an amazing coach like you. 775 00:40:08,907 --> 00:40:11,397 Is there some of these techniques that one could use 776 00:40:11,397 --> 00:40:13,887 on oneself, and if so, how? 777 00:40:13,887 --> 00:40:14,817 How would we do that? 778 00:40:14,967 --> 00:40:22,497 ' Um, I think being able to work out the difference between what we ought to 779 00:40:22,497 --> 00:40:28,287 do and what we really want to do is the, is where I would begin with that. 780 00:40:28,287 --> 00:40:28,767 Rachel. 781 00:40:28,767 --> 00:40:32,392 I, I, I would, I would want that people can find somebody 782 00:40:32,392 --> 00:40:34,462 to talk with, wherever. 783 00:40:34,462 --> 00:40:37,882 I mean, the, the, the work I do is in an arena where we're working with 784 00:40:37,882 --> 00:40:41,212 vulnerable families and, and that's not my word, that's 'cause I think we're 785 00:40:41,212 --> 00:40:45,022 all vulnerable in some ways, but we're, there are issues around dependence and 786 00:40:45,022 --> 00:40:47,122 mental health issues and domestic abuse. 787 00:40:47,422 --> 00:40:51,842 And there's very often, it's a struggle to find resource, but it is there. 788 00:40:52,142 --> 00:40:55,052 And it is, they're often in the most simple things within community. 789 00:40:55,352 --> 00:41:00,022 And, uh, we want someone who is,, you know, where they can find somewhere 790 00:41:00,022 --> 00:41:03,172 of where there's loving kindness and it's there in the community, 791 00:41:03,172 --> 00:41:07,432 just if we can be willing to be honest and just talk a little bit. 792 00:41:07,732 --> 00:41:09,892 Do not be alone in this. 793 00:41:10,192 --> 00:41:14,827 There, there are many injustices that hold people in behaviors 794 00:41:14,827 --> 00:41:18,817 that they wouldn't necessarily have chosen way back, but we want 795 00:41:18,817 --> 00:41:20,857 that people do not feel alone. 796 00:41:21,157 --> 00:41:24,757 So reach out, find, uh, forgive me, that sounds a cliche, but 797 00:41:24,757 --> 00:41:28,957 just find some, someone to talk with is what I would, I would say. 798 00:41:29,276 --> 00:41:32,726 Actually, that is such brilliant advice because when I think about, yeah, when, 799 00:41:32,726 --> 00:41:35,876 when I've changed behavior, it's always after a conversation with someone, it's 800 00:41:35,876 --> 00:41:38,936 like, I'll talk to my best mate and I'll talk something through, and then 801 00:41:38,936 --> 00:41:40,346 I'll come up with something gonna do. 802 00:41:40,526 --> 00:41:41,576 Been really helpful. 803 00:41:41,666 --> 00:41:46,046 The conversation we've had here quite hard to, it is hard to do on your own. 804 00:41:46,046 --> 00:41:48,926 So if we can just listen, listen to each other, listen to each 805 00:41:48,926 --> 00:41:52,256 other with, with curiosity and non-judgment and, and maybe those 806 00:41:52,256 --> 00:41:55,406 magic questions of, well, you know, what does that sound like to you? 807 00:41:55,406 --> 00:41:57,746 Or, well, what would you advise someone else to do? 808 00:41:57,836 --> 00:42:00,813 Yeah, so that, so they can start to solve the problem. 809 00:42:01,010 --> 00:42:02,090 It's a great observation. 810 00:42:02,090 --> 00:42:05,150 Yes, it is often said culture, whether it's family culture, our own 811 00:42:05,150 --> 00:42:08,990 culture, organizational culture, it changes conversation by conversation. 812 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,050 We are creatures of, you know, generally we, we, we need each other. 813 00:42:12,350 --> 00:42:15,750 So Alasdair, um, I know that you do training all over the country for this. 814 00:42:15,750 --> 00:42:18,720 You really love to work in the preventative space, uh, both 815 00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:20,580 in health and, and social care. 816 00:42:20,580 --> 00:42:24,060 And if, if wanna see if, if anyone could ever attend one analysis, 817 00:42:24,060 --> 00:42:26,190 training is absolutely fantastic. 818 00:42:26,190 --> 00:42:27,415 I've, I've been to some myself. 819 00:42:27,540 --> 00:42:31,230 So how, how can people get hold of you if they, if they want to know more? 820 00:42:31,418 --> 00:42:36,408 Um, well it's through our, our website, which is cambridgetraining.org. 821 00:42:36,708 --> 00:42:42,268 I'm also on, uh, LinkedIn, just in my, my, my name, and have a 822 00:42:42,508 --> 00:42:46,468 Twitter handle, again, just the, the sorry, X handle, whatever it is. 823 00:42:46,768 --> 00:42:49,288 Uh, just on, on, uh, my name alasdaircant 824 00:42:49,443 --> 00:42:54,877 . So, it's the area that, um, I, I do want to, help people 825 00:42:54,877 --> 00:42:58,597 find a way for themselves to, uh, change where they wish to. 826 00:42:58,837 --> 00:43:01,927 And it's about preventing rather than, uh, reacting. 827 00:43:01,927 --> 00:43:03,547 So trying to respond earlier. 828 00:43:03,847 --> 00:43:04,747 And it is possible. 829 00:43:04,747 --> 00:43:05,587 So yes, you're right. 830 00:43:05,587 --> 00:43:10,537 That's the arena that I, I, I let you just so enjoy and love doing 831 00:43:10,537 --> 00:43:13,657 what, because you care about, uh, people who deserve better, actually. 832 00:43:13,717 --> 00:43:15,547 They deserve better conversations. 833 00:43:15,697 --> 00:43:18,272 So for three top tips for having those better conversations? 834 00:43:18,549 --> 00:43:21,579 Uh, work out what you want. 835 00:43:21,869 --> 00:43:28,589 So let go of what you ought to do and then go to what you ought to do. 836 00:43:28,589 --> 00:43:31,709 But firstly, be real about what you want. 837 00:43:31,829 --> 00:43:37,459 Then go to obligation, because if it's obligation first, it rarely works. 838 00:43:37,759 --> 00:43:40,639 I would say break it down into small steps. 839 00:43:40,949 --> 00:43:44,459 Whatever it is, if you're trying to get away from work at at half 840 00:43:44,459 --> 00:43:48,629 past six, if you can get away at 25 past six, that's the result. 841 00:43:48,629 --> 00:43:49,409 Or it's 25 to. 842 00:43:49,542 --> 00:43:52,032 Break it down into small doable steps. 843 00:43:52,639 --> 00:43:54,499 And forgiveness. 844 00:43:54,799 --> 00:43:58,789 Forgiveness of ourselves, forgiveness of people around us. 845 00:43:59,089 --> 00:44:04,249 If we are kind to ourselves and kind to those around us, and recognize there's a 846 00:44:04,249 --> 00:44:08,539 huge amount of judgment and expectation once we notice it, just let go of that. 847 00:44:08,539 --> 00:44:11,599 So I would say forgiveness is a big, is really important one 848 00:44:11,599 --> 00:44:12,979 when it comes to behavior change. 849 00:44:13,129 --> 00:44:14,269 Alasdair, thank you so much. 850 00:44:14,269 --> 00:44:16,219 That's, that's a, a great place to end. 851 00:44:16,219 --> 00:44:18,079 And there's so much more I wanna ask you. 852 00:44:18,079 --> 00:44:21,164 So will you come back on the podcast again soon so we can talk more about 853 00:44:21,167 --> 00:44:22,939 Oh, Rachel, I've loved this. 854 00:44:22,939 --> 00:44:27,379 It's been wonderful to, to just talk openly a, a about this 855 00:44:27,379 --> 00:44:28,819 and, uh, I'd be delighted to. 856 00:44:28,819 --> 00:44:32,719 So I wish you all the, uh, all the very best and all your endeavors. 857 00:44:32,754 --> 00:44:36,739 Uh, and, uh, and also to, um, all, all your listeners. 858 00:44:36,799 --> 00:44:39,919 I wish you, uh, everybody such health and strength 859 00:44:39,919 --> 00:44:41,779 and, and, uh, peace as well. 860 00:44:43,023 --> 00:44:43,953 Thanks for listening. 861 00:44:44,053 --> 00:44:48,513 Don't forget, you can get extra bonus episodes and audio courses along with 862 00:44:48,603 --> 00:44:53,433 unlimited access to our library of videos and CPD workbooks by joining 863 00:44:53,513 --> 00:44:57,973 FrogXtra and FrogXtra Gold, our memberships to help busy professionals 864 00:44:57,973 --> 00:45:00,943 like you beat burnout and work happier. 865 00:45:01,317 --> 00:45:04,837 Find out more at youarenotafrog.com/members.