Welcome to the Faith Based Business Podcast with your host, Pastor Bob Thibodeau.

On this podcast, we interview fellow entrepreneurs who are willing to share their stories, their trials, and their triumphs in business, all in an effort to help you avoid the same obstacles and to achieve success faster.

But at all times, continue to rely on our faith to see us through to victory.

Now with today's guest, here is your host, Pastor Bob Thibodeau.

Hello, everyone, everywhere.

Pastor Robert Thibodeau here.

Welcome to the Faith Based Business Podcast.

We are so blessed that you are joining us today.

Amen.

Now, what if I were to ask you if the path you're walking on today isn't actually the one Jesus meant for you to be walking?

Hmm?

Well, what if discovering your true identity starts by taking a different path altogether?

I'm excited for you to hear today's conversation because we are about to dive into this idea with Benjamin Crawshaw, author of the Path.

And trust me, it's going to challenge the way you think about following Jesus.

Amen.

Benjamin Crawshaw is part of an incredible team over@Trueface.org and is helping people just like you and me to stop pretending and stop striving and start living.

Amen from who we really are in Christ.

Now, his new book is honest, it's practical.

It's filled with the kind of grace we all need a little bit more of right now.

Praise God.

And with that being said, help me welcome the program Benjamin Croshaw.

Benjamin, it is a blessing to have you join us today, brother.

I'm so glad you made it today, Bob.

Thank you for having me.

People just call you Bob.

They call you Pastor Bob.

Bob's fine.

I'm going to call you Pastor Bob.

I appreciate you having me on.

I love your, you know, your enthusiasm and your passion.

It's contagious.

So I appreciate it.

Oh, praise God.

Amen.

Appreciate that.

Well, the first question I always start with is this.

Other than that brief information I just shared, can you tell us in your own words, who is Benjamin Crawshaw?

Ooh, I wasn't ready for that question.

Yeah, I am a son of King Jesus, who's a good father, and I have three daughters.

I've been working with True Face for the last couple of years.

And when I started with True Face Bob, I just was doing a little work for them as an editor.

And in a time in my life where, you know, God and I were good, but it was other people that I was struggling with, you know, because I had.

I had trusted you.

And you had hurt me.

And so I said, you know, God and I are good.

My kids and I are good.

But kind of had my arms crossed when it came to engaging in community.

So I start editing for this ministry, True Face, and they're all about your true Face.

Okay?

You know, they're all about being authentic.

And part of being authentic means showing up in high trust community as your true self.

And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute.

This is some interesting stuff that I'm editing.

So I called Robbie, who's the president and CEO, and I said, hey, just who.

Who is True Face for?

Like, you know, when you guys sit and think about your target market, who do you.

Who do you talk about?

And he said, well, we really.

We really target stuck Christians, and we really want to help them, you know, experience more peace and freedom in their walk with Jesus.

So he started talking about this stuck Christian a little bit.

And at one point I was like, I think that's me.

I think you're talking about me.

I'm editing.

I'm editing these materials that are targeted at me.

And so God had orchestrated that in a way that only God can to bring me to a ministry that was providing the resources that I myself needed.

And so, you know, I was a part of the True Face team.

And they modeled that, Bob.

They.

They really are high trust, authentic community.

And so they were patient and gracious with me as I, you know, slowly uncrossed my arms and said, hey, you know, part of loving God is loving others and trusting God is trusting others.

And they really helped re.

Engage me into authentic community.

So I'm super grateful for them.

Amen.

Amen.

So what is trueface.org what's it all about?

I mean, is it just book publishing or is it other stuff, too?

Yeah.

True Face has been around for 30 years and started helping leadership.

I think, in the business realm, they helped high trust leadership.

They talked a lot about, you know, leading from a place of humility, leading from a place of trust and authenticity.

And then they released a book called the Cure.

And this is kind of what got them on the map.

People began to realize them.

People who had.

Who had lived in the room of good intentions as opposed to the room of grace.

And it was really this parable slash teaching book that really kind of put them on the map.

And then they really just.

They went where God was opening doors, which was just in communities of people who were struggling, who were stuck, who.

In creating these high trust communities where people could walk in the freedom of the original good news.

So they really help stuck Christians get unstuck.

So been doing it for 30 years in a number of different ways.

A little bit in the business realm, some in churches, but a lot to just individuals.

Amen.

Amen.

That's awesome.

Amen.

Praise God.

I want to jump right into the book, the path, because like I said before we started the recording, I've watched several of the videos you guys have on YouTube, and they are amazing.

I love it.

Thank you.

And for some of, though, the idea that the way of Jesus is different than we thought, that can be a little unsettling, I guess you could say.

In your book, you reference keys, keys of life and all that share about this type of story that you're sharing about, Right?

Yeah.

It's set up in this allegory.

And I don't compare it to Pilgrim's Progress.

Pilgrim's Progress is a great classic, but that was one of the thoughts we had in mind is can we tell this fable, so to speak, and weave these truths into it?

And it tells the story of a young architect named Tao who's searching for these keys.

And these keys are just representative of, I don't know, social status, accomplishments, these things we're looking for, for fulfillment and purpose, and finds it within architecture and begins to rise in that.

And then it starts to feel a little bit disillusioned, then goes to these other different booths that offer these different keys.

Some are.

Some are really good things, some are really awesome, but ultimately they come down to us.

It's about us having to figure it out on our own.

At the end, it's the city of I can, which is really about me.

I have to do it.

And then Tao's introduced to a booth where Jesus offers a different way, which is, what if it's not all on you?

What if it's not?

What if it's not?

I can.

What if it's.

I can't.

And so that's really where it begins to change a little bit.

Yeah, yeah.

The subject, Tao finds Jesus at a booth in the forest.

Right.

Explain that.

Explain that.

Yeah.

Surrounded by other booths, which, again, Bob, some of them are great.

Jesus.

Let's hold it.

Hold that thought.

Let's reference what these booths are like, because you briefly.

You went over that.

Where the keys, you know, we all want the approval of our parents, and then we want the approval of, you know, the.

The teachers at school, and then we want the approval of, you know, the players, our friends on the football team or whatever like that.

And each one of these are like keys to your self worth.

Right, Right.

It was like, oh look, my friends on the team love me, but my parents think it's just a waste of time type thing.

Right, so you're trying to win the.

Approval of your parents.

That's what he's talking about with these keys.

Am I right?

Yeah.

Ultimately, it's the search that Solomon went on.

If you read Ecclesiastes, Solomon had everything.

And so Solomon went to wisdom, Solomon went to pleasure, Solomon went to nature.

Solomon went to expansion and growth.

And at the end, Solomon's like, yeah, it's meaningless, chasing after the wind.

Now if you flip that and you look at the woman at the well, the Samaritan woman who met Jesus, well, she showed up with nothing and found everything in Jesus.

Jesus, like, I'll bring living water.

Solomon had everything.

And Solomon in the end kind of died with nothing.

And so it's this search that we're all on and these.

There's more options today, Bob, than ever before.

Because it could be fitness, it could be self love, it could be travel, it could be adventure, it could be, you know, standing up for justice.

It could be doing something important, being something important, all of these things, you know, money, success, fame, all of that.

Even religion, right?

Even religion is a booth that sometimes put it puts it all on us, where the booth of Jesus is like, no, it's.

Jesus says, it's all on me.

I did for you what you can't do for yourself.

And so the way to Jesus is not striving and earning, it's trusting and receiving.

Amen.

Amen.

So that's the.

What he's talking about with the booths right now.

How did she find Jesus in the forest?

Yeah.

So the exit from I can getting the next level of keys, realizing there's more keys.

It's this search for accomplishment again.

Back to Solomon.

Solomon kept gaining, gaining, earning, earning, learning, and still felt this sense of unfulfillment.

So Tal goes to the forest and sees a bazaar of these booths and encounters Jesus in a long journey of walking with Jesus, asking questions, wrestling, being frustrated, walking away mad, not sure, you know, feeling like it's too good to be true, feeling like, you know, it's too.

It's too risky to just trust somebody.

We want to control, we want to hold on.

And then we realize, you know, that's not working for us.

And eventually it's just this beautiful moving scene, decides to take the leap with Jesus.

Amen.

Amen.

And there's a lot of assumptions that we have about what it means to follow Jesus.

What are some of the biggest misconceptions that, that you have seen believers hold about the path that they're currently walking?

Yeah, I think that for me, when I started trusting Jesus and walking with Jesus, then the immediate idea, and again, I'm not saying this was taught to me.

This could have just been what I acquired was, okay, now I'm walking with Jesus, so now I trust and obey for there's no other way.

And then for me to start doing stuff, right, I mean, God had saved me, so now I needed to tell him, thank you by doing all this stuff where what we do on the path is we start with identity.

So we start with this understanding of who you are in Christ and then who God is.

God is a good, loving father who has given you this new identity as a son or a daughter of King Jesus.

And so understanding.

Understanding that.

So for the students that I lead, for me to talk to them about just trusting Jesus, I first have to understand, like, you know, how do you see God?

How do you see God?

How do you think God sees you?

Who.

Who are you as a new creation in Christ?

So we start there and then we talk about the idea of trusting.

Well, so trusting for some people, Bob, is I'm going to scale.

You know, this was me when I first started walking.

I'm going to have more quiet times earlier.

You know, I'm going to go to more chapel services, serve in more, you know, I'm going to white knuckle it and do all this stuff.

And then some people take the opposite approach, which is, hey, I'm saved.

It's on my Instagram bio.

And so now we're good.

Where the, the middle part is the difference, which ironically Solomon taught us, which is trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not in all in your own understanding, in all your ways, acknowledge him and he will direct your path.

And sometimes he'll direct your path a long way, and sometimes he'll direct your path just a little bit at a time.

So it's more freeing to just trust Jesus, but it's also more frightening, right?

It's simple, but it's not easy.

So therefore, we like to take it back into our own hands and say, hey, I'll strive, earn, I'll do it all, I'll control all this.

Or we just say, you know what, I'll just, I'm good.

I trusted Jesus, I'm a Christian, I don't need to do anything else.

And.

And so we go to one extreme or the other.

Yeah.

And that.

And that going into the cave is what we talk about, is that.

That trusting Jesus, lighting up your life.

Sometimes a lot of steps in advance, sometimes just a few steps in advance.

But again, all of this starts with you understanding who you are, which is why we start with identity first.

Yeah.

Amen.

And, you know, the identity isn't something we earn, as you said, it's something that we are being given.

Right.

And how do you guide someone to shift that mindset, to fully receive that identity instead of just constantly trying to prove themselves over and over and over to different groups of people?

Right.

Yeah, I have it up there.

Chosen, holy, dearly loved saint.

That's in Colossians.

So, yeah, just reminding myself of who I am in Jesus.

The apostle Paul writes all of these letters to these churches, some of who are doing awesome, like Philippi, some of whom are doing awful, which is like Corinth.

And he's just reminding them who you are.

Eos is the Greek word.

It's saints, God's holy ones.

And so I talk to students about this idea that every other identity in your life has to be earned.

Every other identity in your life can be taken away.

Even a driver's license, you know, you think of that as an identity.

It'll expire.

You have to go get it renewed.

And so talking to students about what I would call your secondary identity, which would be, hey, I'm a basketball player or I'm a musician, or I am a, you know, a very good student.

And, well, what happens when you no longer play basketball?

What happens when school is, you know, learning and getting another degree is no longer a part of your experience.

Your identity as a.

As a love son or daughter of King Jesus cannot be earned, cannot be taken away.

It can't be stripped away.

It can't be lost.

It is who you are forever.

It's forever fused in you.

And so then out of that identity, then you can go, use the gifts that he's given you.

You can go, you know, use the artistic gifts, the creative gifts, your humor, your relationships, your unique story.

But starting with, understand what's the core of who you are.

You are a love son or daughter of King Jesus.

He is the good Father.

Your view of the Creator is always connected to your view of the created.

And so we start there, understanding that's primary.

Other identities are secondary, and they can be taken law, stripped away.

Or you may just say, hey, I don't want to be a guitar player anymore.

I want to come over here and do something different.

So now you don't lose your identity.

You're just being directed in a different way.

Yeah.

Amen.

Amen.

And you talk about, you know, how trying harder and doing more isn't usually the answer.

And, you know, I mean, again, you go back to the sports analogy and, you know, they concentrate so much on sports.

Or if, you know, if I just, you know, I got my associates, I got to get my bachelor's now I got to get my master's now I get a PhD now I got to do an internship over here.

Because if I go to another place that isn't as prestigious speeches, it's not going to work as well.

And when they get all that done, well, they got pieces of paper, you know.

Right.

And that letdown happens.

And, you know, how.

How do we break free from that performance mentality?

Because even in Christian circles, I mean, you know, we talked before the.

The recording started about, you know, me being a Bible school, and one of the requirements is you got to go witness to people.

And I was an introvert.

Right.

But what.

What was the thing they wanted me to turn in?

How many people did you talk to this week?

Right.

Performance.

Right.

How do we break that performance mentality that so easily?

I mean, just what we just talked about, you know, turn in how many people you talk to this week that is so easy to just institute.

And it just creeps into the Christian lifestyle, I guess you could say.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, a lot of people our age, Bob, we, you know, how do we break it?

It broke us, right?

Is we.

We got to a point where we were like, oh, man, I keep.

I'm getting all the gold stars, right.

I'm on the outside.

I'm doing all the things I'm supposed to do.

And then why.

Why does it still not.

Why does I still feel like I'm never doing enough and I'm not measuring up and I'm not good enough?

And why does this feel so exhausting?

So, you know, for people our age, a lot, you know, been walking with Jesus for a while, who have done the performance, the behavior management, the performance Christianity for a while, it's just exhausting, I think, for the next generation and trying to set them on a place where it's different than that.

I think, again, which is why it's so key for us to talk about identity first is to understand, like, who you are doesn't change.

You don't go and earn more of your title as the son of King Jesus, who's a good father.

When you put the belief of your heart and the trust of your life.

In the person of Jesus Christ, you are fully fused with all of who he is.

The Bible says you are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

Like, you have access to everything.

And to start from there and then to let your walk with Jesus be an overflow of that.

I mean, I'm all for knowing more.

I'm all for, like, doing better when it comes to, you know, living into the life that Jesus has for me.

But am I doing it in order to earn something, or am I doing it out of a connection with him?

Am I doing it out of an overflow of who he is?

And that's why Jesus said, hey, remain in me, abide.

You know, that's a, That's a different way of doing things.

And so this is, this is our goal, is to help people early on in their journey to understand that it comes out of a.

Out of a place where you're fully fused with who Jesus says you are.

But we're.

We also address all, all the pitfalls, you know, the striving and earning the passive.

And then we get into shame.

Then we get into, hey, community.

What happens when community hurts you?

So by no means do we paint it out like, hey, once you get your identity set, it's.

It's smooth sailing from there.

But it certainly is a different way to start than I.

And maybe you started in.

Yeah.

And if you just to go back to the analogy on the book with, you know, you accomplish this, there's always something else now that you find in front of you.

And I, I loved how, you know, in the, in the book, how Tao finally made that level three.

You know, her dad had made level two.

She, you know, oh, he's got to be so happy.

I'm going to be level three now.

And at her party they threw for level three.

She found out there's a door for level four.

That only that level four key.

And that I was like, ooh, there's always something else.

Well, now that you got this, here's what you need to do, you know?

Yeah, they try, you know, we all.

Know people like this, Bob.

I, I remember early in my career, I, I, My boss knew a guy who had just written a New York Times bestseller.

And so I was in the room they were having a conversation with.

I was just kind of there in the room and heard them having a conversation.

And this guy said, you know, you would think writing a New York Times bestseller, Then it's like, who?

I can exhale, right?

But now with his publisher now the pressure's on for the next book.

If he's got a three book deal, they're like, hey, just do that again.

Right?

And so he actually felt more pressure.

I remember a guy, he was a starting outfielder for the Detroit Tigers.

Not in the minors.

He's on the mate.

And we sat down and he's like, I'm struggling with approval.

It's like, now you got the media coming after you, got all these guys trying to take your position, and then you still have the voice of your dad in the back of your head.

So I've seen it.

I'm sure you've seen it.

These people who have experienced this incredible success and it's just not what they thought or hoped it would be.

And that's right, you know, we.

Over some time, you and I, we've met enough people and seen enough life to know that.

But when you're young, you.

It's easy to just think, once I get there, then I'm gonna be okay.

And that's what Solomon thought.

It just doesn't work like that.

Yeah, I. I had a friend, he was a professional pitcher for the Seattle Mariners, right.

And.

And he was telling.

We were sitting.

Have we both cops at the same time?

Right?

So after his days up there, and we were just sitting, talking one night, and I said, so why did you give all that up?

He said, throw out my shoulder.

Right?

And when you're a pitcher and you know, that's your.

It's like having a flat tire on a race car.

Yeah, right, exactly.

And so you could have surgery and all that stuff, but it's never the same.

Right?

And he said, out of the 100 pitchers, if 10 get hurt, maybe one makes a comeback.

Right.

You know, and he said, once you got her, you're like on your own.

Okay.

You know, see, you know, thing.

And that's what I got to do now.

I know.

And that's what we're saying, Bob.

That's, that's what we're saying is your identity then gone because you've been a baseball player your whole life.

And so this is what the student ministry I lead is called Sons and Daughters.

This is what I want them to understand.

Some of them are great athletes, Some of them are great students.

Some of them is to understand that's not who you are.

Even my students who are depressed, if you find your identity in being depressed, what happens when you're no longer depressed?

You lose your identity.

So it's not just positive things.

We can wrap up our Identity in these, you know, not negative things, I'm saying, but struggles.

We can wrap them up in these labels that we've been handed, all kinds of things.

We can go to, good or bad, to find our identity.

And so your friend who played baseball, it was like, all right, is your identity gone, or do you have an identity that's rooted in something deeper than being a major league pitcher?

Right, exactly, exactly.

You know, I know.

No doubt you've heard stories from your readers already.

Can you share one that really captures that transformational power of stepping into a true identity in Christ?

Yeah.

I think the thing that we've heard, first of all, people are like, hey, the COVID is beautiful.

So they like.

They like the way, you know, it draws them in.

I think, you know, making the decision to go with an allegory to a parable, it was a decision that we were glad that we made.

I think the feedback we're hearing is people are like, oh, I found myself in Tao's story.

I found myself.

When you're saying to get to third key and realize, oh, there's a fourth key, Is there a fifth key in that?

Oh, man, that's that disappointment.

People are like, yeah, I've experienced that.

And one guy out of Tennessee over in the Memphis area, he works with students who.

They go to high pressure, high performance educational schools.

And so there's a lot of pressure from their parents.

That's why they went to these schools.

And so he was like, oh, wow.

This idea of Tao, they.

They are a bunch of towels, right?

They are a bunch of, like, the grades, the achievements and all of that.

And so being able to give them an allegory that they could understand, to realize, hey, all these things that you're working toward, they're not bad.

It's not like education is bad.

It's not like, you know, growing and expanding and all that is bad.

All that is great.

That's part of how God made you.

But is it ever going to be good enough?

And what happens when you place all of your identity on it?

So I think that the feedback we've gotten not just on the identity piece, but overall, has just been people connecting to the story.

And that's the power of a story.

That's why Jesus told parables a lot, right?

Yeah.

Amen.

Amen.

And I related so much to Tao as far as my military is.

My background is military.

Right.

And, you know, that's all I ever wanted to do.

I wanted to go in the military from time I was a freshman in high school.

I Knew where I was going, right?

And, you know, I. I went to basic training eight days after graduating from high school.

Boom, here we go.

Now my life begins, you know, And.

And what's in the military?

Well, you start off as an E1.

Well, I. I need E2.

Okay.

Got that.

Now I can be a PFC.

Yeah, yeah.

E4.

Now I want to be a sergeant.

E5.

Now I want to be a staff sergeant.

I want to run this whole crew here, you know?

Now you're a step.

Now I want to be a platoon sergeant.

And it's.

It's always that next.

The next rung, the next rung, the next one.

And when I got out, it took me a good 10 years to figure out, what do I do next?

I mean, I just kind of existed.

Financial problems and, you know, I mean, all this stuff was going on because I no longer had my identity, Right.

When I was wearing the uniform and doing.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, I was the guy, you know, if there was an issue, take it to Tibbs, you know, because he's.

Because my whole existence was in that.

Right.

We used to joke around, but it's so true that a sergeant major, when they retire, they'll be dead in three years, Right?

Because their whole existence was as a sergeant major.

Now nobody even cares who they are anymore.

You know, it used to be he'd walk in and even the officers, as a sergeant major, how you doing?

What can I do for you?

Type.

Right?

And all of a sudden, who's he?

Oh, he's a retire.

Okay.

Nobody even cares.

Yeah.

And so they die quick.

Yeah.

So did you find yourself struggling not to connect that idea to your walk with Jesus, where it was like, hey, let me achieve this next thing.

Let me.

Let me.

You know, the striving and earning.

Did you find that mindset kind of connected over to your walk with God for a while?

Well, I did not know the Lord during that time.

Right, Right.

And my lifestyle was one.

Well, think of your typical soldier, right?

Me, Right.

Yeah.

And it wasn't until a good five, six years after I got out where we finally hit rock bottom, I guess you could say.

And I was on the verge of suicide and all that, and that's when Jesus miraculously intervened.

And boom, you know, I mean, everything shifted just like that.

But it was still another three or four years after that, you know, when I started following Jesus and doing right.

Going to church, you know, wow, that's new, you know?

And then all of a sudden, one morning, I'm reading the Bible and I'M called into ministry.

Oh, boy.

Oh, boy.

You know, because you know what?

What?

When the typical.

When someone says, I've been called into ministry, what's the first thing that comes to mind?

Oh, I have to be a pastor.

You know, that's just, you know, oh, okay.

If I'm in the ministry, I gotta have a church because I gotta be a pastor.

And we follow that route.

Right.

I was assistant pastor for four or five years in different churches.

Finally had my own church.

And I realized about a year into that I was not called to be a pastor.

Yeah, but.

But, you know, that teach.

I can teach in depth studies.

That's my gift, you know, to simplify complex biblical topics.

Right, right.

But.

But, you know, that key was always, you know, I made it.

Oh, what's next?

Yeah.

And that's why I say, when I was reading about Tao and all that, I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, I made it.

Oh, now I have to get through that door.

Yeah.

When I make that door, I got it.

I got it.

Yeah.

And, you know, I became a commissioned officer, man.

I'm set now realize, nope.

Now another hurdle.

So, yeah.

Amen.

Amen.

So that's why I think this book is so powerful.

You know, at the end of the day, what's the lasting message you hope your readers of the Path will carry with them not just for a season, but for the rest of their journey with Jesus?

Yeah, that's tough because there's a lot of.

There's a lot of good ones in there.

I. I sit and think a little bit about.

Because, you know, my first instinct, as you asked that question, is to talk about identity that we've talked about here is understanding who they are.

But I think there comes a point where you understand, you're understanding your identity is part of a greater story.

Right.

We get to be a part in the.

You know, get to play a seen role in the unseen kingdom of God.

The timeless kingdom of God.

And so I have a limited time.

You have a limited time here in this timeless kingdom.

And it's just these.

This story that God is writing in our lives.

Well, you know, sometimes the stories, the chapters feel slow.

Sometimes the chapters feel painful, and they feel difficult.

And so I think what I want readers to understand is that God's not done writing your story.

And God is so big that God can use this chapter, even if this chapter is slow, even if this chapter is painful, and God can work all of that as part of a redemptive part of your story.

You go through something and it's difficult.

Well, then we look back and the times in our lives where we've grown the most have come through difficulty, right?

Not only that, now we are positioned to connect with and minister to people who are going through what we went through at that time in the moment.

We just think this is tough and I want this to be over with.

But then if we look back, we're saying, aha, this, God.

God was working this as part of my story in his bigger story.

So I think I want people to understand that our story is part of the bigger story and we have a great, the greatest writer of them all.

And he can use each chapter.

So for, for your, you know, viewers and watchers, Bob, who are watching this right now and are like, man, this chapter feels slow.

Or my daughter, my oldest just had ACL surgery and so she's on crutches, can't move a lot.

This chapter feels achingly slow.

Right?

I mean, literally slow.

Hey, God can use all of that.

God can use all that.

God can use this chapter as a part of your story.

But even bigger than that, his story.

His story, which is the greatest story of all time.

Yeah.

Amen.

Amen.

Benjamin, this has been so interesting.

How can our listeners obtain a copy of your book, the Path?

I take it it's on Amazon.

Correct?

It is on Amazon.

You can search Benjamin the Path or if you want to get a little more info, you can go to trueface.org t r u e f a c e dot org the path and you could see some of the animation videos that you're talking about and read a sample chapter if you want to check that out first.

So either way, yeah, you go to Amazon or you can go to treeface.org the path.

Amen.

Amen.

Someone has a question for you or would like more information or maybe they'd like you to come on and do an interview such as this.

How can they do that?

How can someone get in touch with you?

Yeah, just benjaminrufface.org so just my first name, benjaminrufface.

T R U E F A C E dot org reach out to me.

I would love, love to hear from you.

Amen.

I'll put links all this in the show notes down below, folks.

You were never meant to live feeling stuck or striving or pretending to be someone or something else.

Amen.

Don't shut Pastor Bob down when I'm preaching.

Good.

Now you just heard Benjamin Crawshaw reveal how this book the Path leads to the true identity that you were always meant to live from.

Amen not by trying harder, but by trusting deeper.

Amen.

Drop down below in the show notes.

Click the links right there.

Reach out to Benjamin and team over@Trueface.org and also be sure to order your copy of this great book, the Path.

Don't wait.

Do it right now while you're thinking about it.

You know how the devil operates.

He's going to try and distract you and then you're going to forget all about it.

Right now while you're thinking about listening to us right now, drop down below in the show notes.

Click that link.

Order this copy of your book right now.

Benjamin, I want to thank you again for taking the time to come on the program today and tell us all about this great book, the Path.

Man, I just so enjoyed this conversation.

Thank you, Bob.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks for doing what doing.

You're awesome.

Amen.

Thank you folks.

That's all the time we have for today.

Measurement Cross Shaw.

That's Pastor Bob reminding you.

Be blessed.

All that you do.

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