[00:00:00] Hannah: Hello and welcome back to the awfully quiet podcast. I cannot wait for you to dive into this episode because I just know it's going to resonate. I just know you're going to have your mind blown. Because I just did. A few weeks ago, following the episode I did with Nadia Gabriel on Projectors Incorporate, I came across the account of the fear guy and instantly thought, Oh, that resonates.

I have fears, lots of them. And after binge watching through What must have been the last few weeks of content, I reached out to the person behind the account because I thought I must have this person on the podcast. This is absolutely what my audience needs and selfishly what I need. So I reached out to Ben Harris.

The fear guy and uncovered he had been working with Nadia before he is a projector, an introvert, and he can really resonate with the corporate experience. It was the perfect match at the right time. And I am so grateful to have had that conversation and to be bringing this to life Ben truly is a testament of what possibilities arise.

When you trust you're in a knowing and learn to see fear in a whole new light. We talked through some of the misconceptions we have around what it looks like to tackle fear and the dreaded advice of feel the fear and do it anyway. We specifically touch on a fear that most introverts, myself included, will have felt in the workplace, which is the fear of being seen, the fear of being visible.

And we had a really special moment because Ben coached me through some really powerful prompts to uncover the underlying root of a fear that I hold in the workplace, which honestly feels so freeing, so liberating in hindsight and is something you can easily apply to a fear relevant to you. This episode is super warm, conversational, full of light bulb moments and unconventional takes and tips.

Which I love, and you know this about me. So, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. All right. Well, Ben, thank you so much for joining me today and welcome to the Awfully Quiet Podcast.

[00:02:42] Ben: I know. Thank you. This is maybe going to be awfully uncomfortable for some, but awfully liberating at the same time.

[00:02:51] Hannah: Well, it's awfully nice to have you on, as I just explained. Explain to you, I was really, drawn into your Instagram account. You are the fear guy. And just naturally that resonates with me because, fear comes up a lot, I believe. fear comes up a lot for my audience and I'd, before we really dive in, I'd really love to understand what drew you into fear in the first place.

How did you become the fear guy and what does your work look like these days?

[00:03:19] Ben: Yeah. Well, thank you. And like, honestly, it's, I'm stoked to be here. I'm actually kind of getting chills just because it's like, I heavily resonate with whatever you want to say your audience or just like, cause I know that is me slash was me and someone recently in one of my containers in my. In my community that I have, they're like, like, I'm assuming how to you and you've had an audio on your podcast.

So you've talked about human design. So your audience probably knows about it. So I'm a projector.

[00:03:55] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:03:56] Ben: projectors tend to be introverted.

[00:04:00] Hannah: Is that so that, sorry, I need to jump in here because that was a question that I actually had in mind when I had Nadia Ombi, we didn't really come to it. And I was always thinking that to myself, it's like, are projectors skewing towards introversion? Is that how it is?

[00:04:14] Ben: I mean, I'm not an expert, but from my observation as a project, right? Like, and I tend to work with a lot of projectors. So it could just be my bias from, like. What I see in my own experience, but from what I see. It does tend to be that because we are typically not the, of course, it depends on your type, right?

Or your, not your type. Your what's the other 1? Why am I forgetting it? What are the numbers called?

[00:04:42] Hannah: like whether you're a mental projector or an emotional or.

[00:04:45] Ben: Yeah, and also, like, the 1, 3 or whatever. What is that called?

[00:04:49] Hannah: the, the profile.

[00:04:51] Ben: There we go. Yeah. So like, that depends on it too. It's obviously not just like projector and then we put, and that's the whole point of, you know, human design is like, we just don't stamp something on your forehead and label you as that forever.

[00:05:01] Hannah: yeah.

[00:05:02] Ben: But, you know, it's like, I tend to notice that we are, because we're more observers and generally speaking, that.

We're, you know, observing and we're asking questions and it's not so like, like outward. And so it might not be perceived. It really isn't introversion. I don't think, but it's just perceived as that because. The world really isn't used to that if that makes sense.

[00:05:27] Hannah: Yeah. And then you're often being prompted, like, especially in corporate, it's like, you're being awfully quiet. Like, why are you not louder? Why are you not saying more? Why are you not speaking up? Was that your experience in corporate?

[00:05:39] Ben: oh, yeah, like, I had an experience 1 time. So, in my corporate experience. I started at a company, a finance company. I started in the customer service team on the phones, and I think I was employee number 20. And then by the time I left there, like, 8 years later, There was, I think like 1500 employees or something.

And so it grew a ton, obviously in that time. And so I just, I got a lot of awesome experience at a young age. And I remember, you know, who knows how young I am 23, 24 and my, I forgot, I think he was the CEO at the time or maybe the VP, but it doesn't really matter. But he was an intimidating character to say the least people were definitely intimidated or afraid of him. And I remember something went wrong or we didn't perform as well on my team. And he was like upset. And I can't remember if he said this or if this is just the story I told myself, but basically. What he was hinting at was like, why aren't you more upset? Because I was just like, like calm about it. And I remember just thinking like, dude, like this doesn't matter.

It's like, like, I get it. We, we, we're going to do our best and like, we're not just going to casually and like slack off. But the way that he responded was, Immensely different from the way that I responded and so I definitely always remember being the 1 who was quiet. I mean, that's how I was growing up too.

And I was always so confused and I would compare myself, you know, to the charismatic, performer or speaker and that's. I mean, we could really get into that and and that relates back to what I was going to say of. Someone in 1 of my groups was saying they were shocked. I was projector. Because they like, because they said, Oh, it looks like you really like to work or you're really like, you really get after it or like, if you listen to me on a podcast, right?

It's like, obviously it's a different scenario than in my day to day life. Where a lot of the time I am observing or I am quiet, but when you hit record for an hour, I'm obviously going to be talking and performing and speaking in a different tone. And so people misconstrue that of, like, all the time versus an hour, like, listening to something of me being in my gift or flow or whatever.

[00:08:09] Hannah: Yeah. Did it take you a while to get there though, in terms of like being more of an observer rather than a doer, because that still feels like a task to me. It's like. Do less, but how,

[00:08:22] Ben: Yeah, I mean, I think for me, it's been a mix because. I've whatever reason I've naturally been a doer, and so much so right that it's like, sometimes my work isn't not doing. and I think as projectors. I've heard this, I'm not sure how true it is, but we have the most deconditioning to do out of all the types, because we are so different than the typical, like, go, go, go, like, you have a lot of energy and.

That's not who we are. And so I have made a lot of progress in that in the past year, but. yeah, it's like, it took me a while to, how do I want to say it, I guess like, it's the energy that I'm coming from. So before I could act, and it was coming out of fear, right, of like, I have to do this because if I don't do it, I'm going to lose something. And that's a great, like, place to start, but you don't want to end there, you don't want to live there. And so for me, right, as like, I'm afraid of not fulfilling my potential. So I know that I will lose something if I don't take action. So that was motivating for me. But now what my motivator is, is like, I do this thing because I love it.

I do this thing because it's fun. I do this thing because it feels good instead of like out of fear or self punishment or shame, because you can take action from, you can take action and do the same thing in a completely different energy. So just that subtle shift of coming from love and joy and trust and like, enjoying it, that has changed a lot for me.

[00:09:51] Hannah: yeah, I think it goes back to the saying about fear is a bad advisor. It's like whenever you feel like you're being led by fear, it's never really a good thing. Whereas, as you say, you can sort of sense that you're doing something. And it might just be doing it might just be a lot of effort and work put into this, but it's actually making you happy.

It's actually a lot of fun for you. It's not really draining your energy to a point and that's okay then. So, maybe we'll start there into the whole kind of sphere of, of fear. How do we recognize fear? I'm sure that there are fears that we're aware of. We're like, no, I have this fear of being seen at work, of being visible.

That's one that I could pinpoint, but then I'm sure there's lots of underlying stuff. Like how do you, how do you start or where did it start for you?

[00:10:44] Ben: Absolutely. So I would say, keep me on track and I keep, I'm going to come back to my story, but I want to make sure that I, one of the questions you asked is like, how do I know that it's fear? Right? Because usually people think of fear of this big, Thing like this intense, like, oh, my God, I'm afraid, like, I'm panicking and I can't breathe and my heart was racing.

And of course, that's fear. Right?and that's usually what fear is meant to be, right? It's like, short and intense and then it goes away. Right? The threat is coming in. Like, a lion is chasing me, or my house is on fire, or someone's trying to, you know, rob me or something and it's like, okay, I'm in danger and I need to escape or I need to fight back.

Like, that's normal fear. But what's happened in our society, right? Is like, Like a common one is just anxiety. Like anxiety is essentially chronic fear because you're always in parasympathetic. You're always in fight or flight. You're in survival. You're looking for something bad to happen, which is fear.

That that's a survival response. So anxiety is a big one. Stress. Like, seriously, stress is, you know, it's your nervous system saying that something is wrong, that you need to protect yourself from, self doubt, feeling overwhelmed, that's a big one, overworked, worry, right, that's essentially, like, what you, like, worry is just like, I need to protect myself from something bad happening, and so worrying about it makes me feel like I can control it, but that doesn't actually do anything.

That's not the case. Another big one is like procrastination. So if you're procrastinating, what you're actually doing is you're just trying to avoid a negative outcome. So I don't start something because I have a fear of failure, or I don't finish something because I actually have a fear of success. So it's just anytime you're not doing what you actually want to be doing, it's because you're afraid.

It really is that simple. Like there's no other reason. It's not because you're lazy, you're undisciplined, like of course that's part of it. But the real reason is like. You're having a survivor response of like, something bad might happen, and I need to protect myself. So fear is just the anticipation of pain.

And so, if you perceive that something is going to cause pain, then you will hide from it, you will run from it, you will avoid it, you'll freeze. And so all of those sensations that we feel in our body, is just self preservation, and we're trying to protect ourself.

[00:13:04] Hannah: Hmm. So it's almost whenever I feel like kind of blocked or stuck or I'm not moving forward. there is something that's underlying where I'm almost asking myself, why? What am I afraid of happening? And what I really love, and I've heard this on your podcast before, is this sentiment of you can even be afraid of success.

There is even, you know, what's going to happen because obviously it always looks like, well, but we do want to grow, but we do want to be visible. We do want to be seen. We do want to be recognized for the great work that we do in our jobs. And we do want to move forward, but. Sometimes there's even something there that keeps holding us back, something that we're afraid of.

I love that.

[00:13:51] Ben: Yeah. I mean, it really is that simple, right? It's like, I spoke, I did a presentation last Thursday for a company's leadership team. And 1 of the people, they volunteered and he had a fear of failure. And right. It's like you said, like, we have these surface level things that we feel and what I do and I'm a big believer in is like, most people don't Look into their fear because for a good reason.

It's scary. It's literally like you have a fear of fear. It's like, it's the opposite of what you're used to. Biology is telling you to do like, you have to go towards it. So it, it feels stupid, but it's like, but the only way out is through. And one of my favorite quotes by Joseph Campbell is the KV fear to enter holds the treasure you seek.

So it's like, and this is, you know, this is nuanced when you were saying, you know, fear is a bad advisor, which it is. And at the same time, there's nuance of like, fear can actually be a really great advisor because it's telling you the thing that you care about. It's like, for me, you mentioned this to write of, like, I want to be seen at work.

I want to be recognized. I want to be celebrated. I want to feel important. And so it's like, but and at the same time, I have a fear of rejection. I have a fear of being judged and criticized and being seen so it's simultaneous. It's not 1 or without the other. And this is a big, I don't want to say mistake, but confusion that I see people have is like, like, I can't have fear or if it's fear, then it's wrong or that it's bad.

And it's like, no. It's fear can actually be a really good indicator of what you desire because fear is actually showing you like what I believe is that fear is a misguided form of love. It's love in disguise. It's like when I look at an example I love to use is like when you see, like, if you're a parent, you know that when your kid runs or chases after a ball in the street, what do you do?

You yell and say, what are you doing? Like, you could have got hurt. You get angry. But that anger is actually just a fear of losing them. And we do that with ourselves, right? Of like, you're going to go chase the ball, aka chase a dream or whatever the desire is, get a promotion at work or speak your truth or hold a boundary, whatever.

Have an uncomfortable conversation. You're going after the thing. Your fear survivor response pops in and says, no, no, no, no. What are you doing? Don't do that. That's dangerous. It's anger, but it's also fear. But it's telling you, no, I actually really care. It's anger. About myself, that's what that self preservation is.

So it's like, yes, if you continue to act out of fear, you'll never get what you want. But at the same time, using that fear is almost a compass of saying like, oh, this is what I desire more than anything, because I wouldn't feel fear if I didn't care about it. You wouldn't like I've never seen an example of like, like, to me, like, when people say like, Oh, like, well, should I just like, I don't like jump off a cliff because I'm afraid of it.

I'm like, no, like, that's you're just being silly. You know what I mean? It's like, that's just one. You're just using sarcasm as a defense mechanism. But it's like, what is it that you actually care about? And you are afraid to do it. So it's just it's complete polarity. And that's what I love about it is, you know, You know, love is the opposite of fear, but one of my other favorite, like, hermetic principles is that, like, fear and love are just opposites in general.

They are, what is it saying? Opposite. They're exact. They are polar opposites, but they're just a difference in degree. Which means, right, like, even if you look at hot and cold, right, it's not like, it's still temperature, right, it's a degree, it's a feeling, it's not like cold or hot is bad, it's not that, and usually, right, it happens by a difference of degree, it's on the same pole, they're polar opposites, but just a difference in degree, and so, I just look at fear and love as just like hot and cold, like cold is the absence of heat, right.

And fear is the absence of love. So it's just like you turn the dial way down. And so what you do to overcome or to transmute or to whatever you want to use that word to defeat your fear is like, you just turn the love on. And so most people continue to fight it, but that does the opposite of what you want, like fighting your fear or running from only creates more of it.

So it's what I teach is to like, love your fear. And then that will like, what you find is that the fear actually just dissolves. And you realize, like, Oh, like, like, it's, it's hard to put in words. It's just a feeling that once you love the thing that you've been avoiding for years or decades or your entire life, there's so much love that happens.

And it's just like, Oh my God. And it almost, it just becomes like silly and you're like, I can't believe I haven't been doing this the whole time. And then it just, you just naturally do it. It's no longer a fight. You don't have to force yourself. Because you've gotten to the root of it, and that's what I was giving this example with this guy before, like, he had a fear of failure, and deep down, once we dug deeper, is that he had a fear of failing at life.

Like, he literally was going to believe that if I failed at this one thing, that means that my life is a failure. Which is very heavy. It's very damning. It's very, there's no nuance there. And that's what his subconscious believed, like, truly, that's what it was protecting him from. Like, you cannot fail because that means that you are a failure, not just that you failed at one thing, but that you are a failure.

And then what he also had was because I asked him, Oh, what would you want to believe instead of, you know, I fail at life and he's like, well, this kind of sounds conceded or arrogant, but I want to believe that I'm the best. And in that response, we discovered a new block is that you can't be successful because you believe that that's arrogant or conceded.

[00:20:06] Hannah: Right. And so it's like, what happens to all of us, seriously? Every single person that we have these. Multiple motivators and to sum it up, right? You can just say failure and success. So he didn't want to fail. So he's doing just enough to not fail, but he doesn't want to succeed because then he's conceded an arrogant and probably right.

[00:20:25] Ben: There's a lot of other things underneath there that are unwanted or undesirable. So he's getting stuck in, like, blocked and like, constricted and you flip. Back and forth and you start things and you self sabotage your things. And it's like, that's when you just feel so exhausted and so tired and so overwhelmed and so stuck because you don't realize that you're like being influenced by two major forces that are just trying to protect you.

[00:20:50] Hannah: I love that I have so many takeaways already. So many moments, what I, what I'm taking away from that, it's almost like fear is not necessarily a bad thing. it leaves clues, tells us what it is that we really want. And it's actually there to help us, to protect us. And it's us almost like protecting ourselves, which is a nice, which is a nice sentiment.

It almost like makes me feel a lot different about fear. And then you also said it's not necessarily about overcoming it. It's not about ever You know, just, you know, canceling out all of the fears. It's just understanding what they are. And then I really like the sentiment of dialing up the love. It's almost like, you know, embracing, I have this fear and now that I know about it, I can do something with it.

So it's almost like uncovering what's, what's really behind and what's really. Trying to hold us back.

[00:21:51] Ben: Amen. Well said. I love that.

[00:21:54] Hannah: Well, and then I'm just wondering if you start this process and you said that there's lots of people who are afraid of success. There is something in there that's that that just holds them back. and we just learned it might be, you know, then you'll come across as arrogantly and then you, you'll change as a person.

What are other reasons that you've uncovered with some of your clients around, you know, why are we afraid of success? What, what are we afraid is happening to us if we do get the promotion, if we do get, you know, if we do achieve what we really want in our

[00:22:25] Ben: Yeah. I feel like for me personally, and then for a lot of other people, it just has to do with responsibility, It's like, I don't want more responsibility. So that usually 10, it goes down. It goes. Like, the surface levels responsibility and then I'm like, well, what does that mean to you personally? So, like, for me is like, I didn't want more responsibility.

Like, people think, you know, when you first hear it, like, there's a part of you that doesn't want to be successful. People are like, no, I'm, I'm like, yes,

[00:23:00] Hannah: I do.

[00:23:01] Ben: it makes complete sense. It's like, I don't want, like, speaking personally, right? It's like, I didn't want more responsibility because at first it was like, I don't want to lose my lifestyle.

So, Kind of like, especially as a projector and this is happens with a lot of people I work with, especially when they come out of the corporate world of like, I don't want to be burned out again. I don't want to be at a time where it's like, I'm overworked and like, all that stuff that comes up that's responsibility.

Right? Is like, but also another 1 is like, is like, another 1 with people I work with who are like, so entrepreneurs of like, I don't want to be successful because they actually have a fear of letting people down or not getting results. Right. So it's like, yeah, part of me doesn't, and this again, right. Is the failure versus success polarity where it's like, I'm afraid of like failing and like, I need money and I need a client, but it's also like, I don't want a client because I don't want to let them down, you know?

And so you're constantly battling yourself back and forth through these things. And I have a training on this. It's free. People can go download and it doesn't even matter. Like, if you're an entrepreneur or want to be one, I phrase it in that way. Cause those are most of the people that I work with, but it's called the number 1 thing, holding your coaching business back.

And I just take people through a fear of success, like a bunch, like a few different prompts and I give examples of like, how it works. And the 1st 1 is I can't be successful because. So you just naturally fill in that prompt of like, make a list of reasons why you don't want to be successful, more responsibility, you know, less time with your family, less time with your kids, more money to lose, right.

Or more visibility, like you might let people down, like there's a bunch of things and it's just, just whatever pops in naturally and organically, just. Fill in the blank and write a list down.

[00:25:01] Hannah: Yeah. If we just stick with visibility for now and like being seen, I feel like that. is going to resonate very much with my audience, especially in the corporate world where introverts are often told you need to gain more visibility. You need to speak up more. You need to put yourself in front of audiences in order to be seen, to be heard, to be recognized.

And those will often be like really talented people, like people who are doing a great job. People who are performing really well, but then they're often being told, you know, you need to be more visible. You need to be seen. and I feel like that, that makes a lot of introverts uncomfortable to a point of like, no, I really can't be seen because I don't perform in that moment.

If I put myself in front of a large audience, that's not going to help me because I'm actually not going to be. You know, I'm not that extroverted outgoing person who is just going to be put in a good light by speaking in front of an audience or by Being seen. Do you, do you resonate with that? Have you ever, because you do a lot of work around like being seen, being visible,

[00:26:09] Ben: Yeah, for sure.

[00:26:10] Hannah: back?

[00:26:11] Ben: Hannah, would you be down to just go through some prompts? You can give it personally or just pretend.

[00:26:17] Hannah: Let's do it.

[00:26:19] Ben: So what we'll do, so for everyone listening, like whether you're driving, walking, Just naturally fill in the prompts. And like, of course we'll use Hannah as an example of, all of these prompts, by the way, are like, they're inside my free alchemy course, which you can go check it out, it's on my website, but also this is, I mean, not so much a secret anymore, but like.

I have a membership now, it's only 44 bucks a month and I get, I'm giving every everything away. So, like, all my courses, everything that's, you know, worth thousands of dollars, you just get inside the membership and I'm. Giving it all to you, so instead of going to get the course, I'd recommend just doing the membership because 1, it's cheaper and then you also get access to an incredible community and I'm showing up doing. Training every single day. So if you, if you resonate with any of this stuff, like. The membership is just a great way to dip your toe in, but also, like, if you're ready to go all in, it's a great way to just, it's, it's an intuitive way that you can get exactly what you need from it.

But just to mention that, because these prompts are in there, like, if you wanted more. So, in the fear of being seen, I'm going to, we're going to go through some prompts and it's important that you just naturally fill in when I pause when there's a space, just fill it in naturally. Because what tends to happen in these examples, and I go through this in the course, too, of like, we try and mentally answer these, right?

We want to give the right answer or what it

[00:27:52] Hannah: like I'm tested now.

[00:27:54] Ben: yeah, it's like, no, it's just like, literally, the first thing that pops in is like, whatever, just, just organic, like, there's no right or wrong answer. Like, we're all different. And so I like to give that little heads up for people. So, all right, Hannah, fill in the blank.

I can't be seen because,

[00:28:10] Hannah: What if they think I'm not good enough?

[00:28:14] Ben: okay, so what if they think I'm not good enough? If first off, I just want to acknowledge, like, what do you feel in your body right now?

[00:28:25] Hannah: Tension? Like close, like, it feels like closed off, like,

[00:28:31] Ben: Yeah.

[00:28:32] Hannah: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:28:33] Ben: thank you for saying that. And it's like, I can feel it too. And like, I'm sure everyone listening, you can feel the change in the tone, right? Like in the energy, it's like, you can feel that tension or that apprehension or that close or that tightness. And it's really important that we call this out.

Because none of us are really taught and especially in a corporate setting, like, no one is like, how do you feel? What are you feeling in your body right now? And we're just taught to override and to overpower these things. And that actually doesn't help, like, it's helpful in the short term, but in the long term, you're actually not progressing and getting what you want.

So, in this time where we do have space and the safety to call out those feelings and to acknowledge them, it's really important that we do. Because this. Like I said before, this isn't just a mental thing. Like, this is an extremely emotional process, and a lot of people just try and force themselves logically through it.

Logic is half of it. The emotions are the other part of it. Like, it's really important that you have both. And like, can you already feel that it's a little bit lighter even just talking about it? Yeah. Yeah,

[00:29:39] Hannah: it feels really good to talk about because I think those are often themes that will come up, but as you say, we just kind of brush them off. Like I would even say something, Oh, that's my imposter syndrome speaking. You know, that's just kind of like, almost like saying it out loud, but in a, like, almost like you're joking and you'll say, you know, what if they'll find out that I have actually no idea what I'm, what I'm doing here.

these sorts of things, you almost like say them half. Joking. And it's like, there's something underlying that you, you really feel, but you're brushing it off. Yeah. Dismissive. Yeah.

[00:30:19] Ben: of avoidance, which is just, yeah, it's just again, self protection, like, and, but what we're, and you're actually shaming it, right? Is like, I'm wrong for feeling this. And then I promise we'll continue the prompts. But what happens is then you continue the cycle because when you joke about it or just dismiss it.

You're shaming yourself for feeling closed off, you're shaming yourself for feeling embarrassed or humiliated or whatever the feeling is or nervous. And it's like, like, what we're doing is just what we talked about about before by acknowledging is just loving that feeling. And so much of it is actually just this, like, we're going to continue the prompts and get to the root and reframe it.

[00:31:02] Hannah: Hmm.

[00:31:03] Ben: But a lot of it is just simply acknowledging what I'm feeling. And it's like, Oh, okay. Like, I'm afraid that they're not going to think. I know what I'm talking about, or that I'm not good enough, or I didn't say it exactly right, or I didn't get it perfect. Okay, hold space for it. Breathe through it, even if it's just 5 minutes.

Right? And it's like, okay, like, I'm safe. Like, I can do that. And you realize, like, that's just, that's going to be really helpful in itself, instead of just trying to rush or force yourself through it. And you're still feeling the things, even though you're trying to logically convince yourself not to feel them, which doesn't work.

So, so it's just like, Acknowledging it in that way.

[00:31:46] Hannah: love it.

[00:31:47] Ben: Yes. Okay. So what if Hannah, tell me like, okay, so if it is that, you know, they think that it wasn't good enough or you didn't say something in the right way, if people see that happening, right? Cause it's not just that it happened. The fear of being seen as like, it was exposed, right?

It was like, woo, like they put a spotlight on that thing that I'm imperfect or whatever. So if people see it, you kind of already talked about how you feel, but what does it mean Transcribed About you when people see that imperfection or that you're not good enough.

[00:32:21] Hannah: it probably means that what it would mean to me is like, they think I'm not good or they don't see my full potential. Which, which is often something like, it's getting kind of personal, isn't it? But I'm almost like, I'm not as self conscious. I do know my potential. I do kind of like feel like I'm deep down.

I am good enough. I'm just afraid that's not going to be visible. I think that's it. That makes

[00:32:53] Ben: Okay. So this is really good. Right? And this is like, and this is where it can get confusing because and this is like, you know, this is the perfect example of a lot of people that I work with. And even myself included, right? I'm like, I know I'm good. Like, I know I'm a good coach. I know I'm good at my job.

I'm a great leader, yada, yada, yada. But. And anything after the, but

[00:33:13] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:33:14] Ben: some, some fear response of like, you can't show it. Right. It's like, you can't be vulnerable or exposed in that way. So you said they won't think that you're good. Okay. So if they see that you are not good, then it proves what it proves. I am, if I'm not good, then it proves I am.

[00:33:34] Hannah: Not enough. It proves that I'm almost like an, like, almost like an imposter, almost like somebody who just kind of pretends or, you know, there's, there's really no capability or there's really no foundation behind, you know, is she any good? Who does she think she is? Like that sort of thing.

[00:33:55] Ben: Yes. What do you feel about what I just heard through all of that is like, I don't belong.

[00:34:00] Hannah: yeah, that's true.

[00:34:02] Ben: So how do you

[00:34:03] Hannah: almost like that inner, there's almost like that inner circle that I'm not in, that I don't feel like I'm, yeah, like I don't belong. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:16] Ben: okay. So that resonates, right? Cause all of those things that you said. Are true, right? They're all wrapped up in a nod of confusion, but just to like, synthesize and simplify that right of like, I don't belong. What does that feel like

[00:34:31] Hannah: Well, initially I wanted to say bad, but it feels kind of freeing because it kind of makes sense, doesn't it? It's like, well, Maybe I don't need to prove to them that I'm actually really good. you know what I mean? In a corporate setting, of course. that might look different when it comes to like anything that I do in my business and podcasting, but just kind of like, yeah, maybe I don't and that's okay.

[00:34:56] Ben: exactly? Right? So you're. I love it and you're getting ahead of it, but like, for some people, like, that's a very, like, damning thing to

[00:35:05] Hannah: Hmm.

[00:35:06] Ben: that's like, oh, like, I don't belong. Right? But like you said, it is freeing, right? It feels heavy. It feels bad. It feels icky or whatever you want to call it, but you nailed it that it's actually freeing.

Because one, it makes complete sense, right? It's like, Oh, like, of course I'm not doing the thing that I want to be doing because I have a default setting that believes that I don't belong. So it's like, I don't want to put myself out there. I don't want to be seen. I don't want to speak and give my ideas because it puts that at risk.

Right. And I will prove that I don't belong. Right. So like, that's why we're not putting ourselves out there to be seen. But what we don't realize that we're actually doing Is that by not speaking and putting yourselves out there, what are we doing?

Well, setting myself up for failure. I'm just staying where I am. yourself and you're proving that I don't belong.

[00:36:03] Hannah: yeah.

[00:36:04] Ben: Because your subconscious doesn't know the difference whether it's someone else rejecting you or yourself rejecting you. So,

[00:36:11] Hannah: Wow, that's interesting. So your subconscious doesn't know whether it's somebody else who's rejecting you or you who's rejecting you. So

[00:36:19] Ben: it's just the result.

[00:36:20] Hannah: up in your mind and it just feels like you're being rejected and it's yourself.

[00:36:25] Ben: exactly. And that's what happened every single time. And we'll come back to this. But yeah, this is a good point, right? For people to know it's like, Oh, like, because you said something important, right? Like, it's actually not about other people. So make sure we come back to that. But it's

[00:36:39] Hannah: yeah.

[00:36:40] Ben: yeah, you just you were rejecting yourself. And because there's a part of us that wants to stay safe, right? And safety is familiarity. And so if I don't belong, or whatever else belief we hold, right? that's our familiar, then we will want to stay there. We will want to prove that correct. We will, we will want to uphold that identity. So, that's what that result does.

Is by not speaking, I confirm that I don't belong as true and safe and not threatened anymore. So, even though it sucks, even though it's not what we want, it's actually deep down what you do want.

[00:37:22] Hannah: It's actually kind of enlightening how we're being really mean to ourselves, aren't we, in these situations. It's like, it's like almost the opposite of what you said at the beginning in terms of like dialing up the love. It's like, we turn it all the way down. It's like, if you say safety is familiarity, it's like, if for it to feel familiar makes us feel safe.

Safe. But if the familiar thing. It's actually not, we're not enjoying ourselves, are we? Like, it's not like we're feeling good where we are, it's like we're feeling kind of stuck. We think we want to get out of this. We think we want to become visible and seen in order to achieve something. But then it's almost like a false sense of safety then, isn't it?

[00:38:07] Ben: Yup. And ding, ding, ding, you just nailed essentially fear, right, of like, it's the exact opposite of what you think you're doing, right? I'm actually protecting myself, but I'm actually just punishing myself. And so, right, to get outside of that is you do, that's, this is why it's so scary is it's not just the outcome.

It's like, Oh, like I have to prove myself wrong. And that's what that's a deeper part of the game that most people don't realize, right? People just say, feel the fear and do it anyway. Get out of your comfort zone. But they don't realize that these are actually what's keeping you stuck. So. Like, and you just said, right?

It's so freeing to realize, oh, this is why this has been happening. It's like, and it makes complete sense. Like, if I don't believe it, if I believe that I don't belong, of course, I'm not going to do this. Like, I'm going to always feel like I don't belong. And another kind of sadistic, but also complete logical thing that's happening is.

What is like, even if you do put yourself out there and even if your boss or your colleagues or. Social media, you've if you get good feedback, you'll still find a way to say it wasn't good enough because you need to prove again that I don't belong. So this comes back to what you said of like, it's not about them.

It's about you. And this is ultimately what I, you know, like, we're leaving an example of what I'm here to do, right? Of like, following your fear is actually the most liberating thing that you can do. Like, yeah. This is why they say everything on the other side of fear is freedom, but I would just kind of adjust that of, like, everything inside of fear is freedom.

It's not just avoiding it or powering through it. Sometimes,

[00:39:54] Hannah: other side. Yeah.

[00:39:55] Ben: have to do that sometimes, right? Like, yeah, like, I don't really have the time or space. But when you do, like, in these moments, in these conversations, you can actually get to the root. Like, you can get to the core of why you have that resistance.

And once you do, right, you find this nugget of gold that's like, Oh, like, this makes complete sense. Thanks. Now you can love it. Now you can realize, Oh, like nothing's wrong with me. Actually, I'm behaving correctly as I should based on this belief. And so now once we get to the root, right, cause you have to realize like this root is informing everything in my life.

And like, that's what I mentioned before of like, even if I get exactly what I want, I'm somehow going to degrade it because I believe that I don't belong. So I need to prove that correct. So once you get to the root, you can actually like, Like dissolve that and rewrite that. And now that root is going to, you know, influence how you feel. that's going to, what's changed your reality. And it's not even like, this is what's crazy. When what happens with a lot of my clients and students is like, I hear a lot, like not a lot has changed like externally, but I feel completely different. And that's, what's really cool about it. And even what we can find in this conversation, right.

Is like nothing externally has changed. But you feel completely different, right?

[00:41:21] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:41:22] Ben: And that is going to influence your external reality. Because now you'll be operating from love. You'll be operating from understanding. You'll be operating from compassion. Instead of, why the hell can I do this thing? Why am I so afraid?

Why am I so yadda yadda yadda? Right? Just more shaming yourself. It's like, oh, I can understand that. And by following the fear, we'll actually unleash that love. And that's the process. Yes,

[00:41:47] Hannah: I do have a follow up though.it really resonates in terms of like, there will always be circles in corporate and, you know, in the work that I do where I do feel like I belong. and I am naturally more outgoing. I am naturally more visible, more probably seen in those circles because I just feel kind of like, yeah, I belong there.

So that kind of makes a lot of sense. Now, wherever I feel like I don't belong, should I be, you know, is the work to be done here to feel like I do belong? But what if it feels freeing to not belong? Do I then just leave it? Or, you know, what's the, what's the resolution of that?

[00:42:32] Ben: I would say just like, well, what is it that you actually want? Like, do you want to belong there? Or are you just trying to tell yourself that you should belong there?

[00:42:38] Hannah: Yeah. I'm just trying to tell myself that I should belong there for the time being, until, yeah.

[00:42:46] Ben: So it's like, that's the freeing part of what you just said, right? It's like, I don't actually want to belong here, but at some point I told myself the story of that. I need to belong here. And that's what we just get stuck in that old story. So now you can just say like, I actually don't even want this. So who cares?

[00:43:05] Hannah: Yeah. And I get that a lot of this work, it takes a lot of guts to go through, because these are some of the, some of this is really uncomfortable, because once you have this knowledge, you You're almost like, you know, that almost like triggers, you know, it's a massive, it could trigger massive action in your life, right?

Terms of like, well, this is not the place, this is not where I belong. you know, with pushing harder and harder, it's not gonna, it's not gonna cut it.

[00:43:36] Ben: yeah. And that's, you know, kind of the magic. It's actually not working. It like working harder, pushing more, right? It's like, it's doing this, which is uncomfortable and it might seem quote unquote harder, but it's actually not like that physical exertion, right? It's just like, what you'd probably don't realize is that you're self punishing through like working harder and telling yourself and shaming yourself through it when like, yeah, like it takes immense bravery.

I mean, When you're ready, you'll do it.

[00:44:10] Hannah: Then what I'm taking away is almost like, Fear probably gets a bad rap. It's like, it's naturally something that we feel fear is the enemy.and it's almost like, no, we need to tap into fear. We need to like follow it and see what clues it leaves for us. Now. Is the goal for there to ever not be any fear, like for somebody like you who works in the fear business, what I was saying, do you still feel fear or does it become easier at some point?

Is there ever no fear? once we've done the work?

[00:44:47] Ben: would say both. So, like some people will say, I'm beerless. You know, and, like, I don't feel any fear and, like, they might be right, like, who knows there might be some people out there that really don't feel it. And if that's true, awesome. Good for them. But for the people listening, and probably most of humanity is, like, I, like, I don't believe in necessarily being fearless, right?

It's like, You can have fearless moments, but really what that is, is just like your love is, you know, on full

[00:45:23] Hannah: Yeah,

[00:45:24] Ben: So it's, it feels like that, right? And I feel like we can all resonate with those moments when it was just almost, ethereal or out of body experiences where I was like, Whoa, like I was just so fearless, but it was really, you were just so tapped into whatever you want to call the divine God, love, whatever.

That's what I, at least I believe. And I've tapped into that multiple times. And so I think it's just a practice of getting closer to that more time and time and time again, but we're all human. It's like, I felt fear this morning. It's like, it's like, of course. And I felt anxiety over the weekend. So it's like, but it's to me the difference in how you respond to it.

But yes, absolutely, there's going to be a lot less fear than it's What tends to happen is it seems to get a lot louder at first when you do this work Because it but it's always been loud. You just want to weren't aware of it, right? And so it's like wow, why is this so intense? Like why do I like I've had people call it like a fear tornado and all of a sudden you realize it's just like oh My god, like I'm surrounded by fear.

It's like you always were you just Like, your eyes were closed or you had blinders on and so it's like, you know, once you awaken and become conscious of that, then it's like, yeah, it's going to seem loud for a moment, but I promise once you just walk through that, then like, you'll be able to realize that, whoa, like, I can trust myself.

I'm stronger than I think. And I can really get through anything. And yeah, like learning how to friend your fear. That's what I'm all about. It's like, it's not, it's not, It's yeah, that's it's having it become a little bit quieter, softer, smoother as it's it's not like at 1st, when I started this work, I guess we're kind of going for doing my story at the end.

[00:47:19] Hannah: That's all right.

[00:47:20] Ben: But right. It was like, when I was 19 or no, I was technically younger, but when I was 19, this is when, like, this snap, like, clicked on for me and I was just like, oh, like, I literally have to do everything I'm afraid of. Yeah. And so every single thing that I felt afraid of, I just started doing

[00:47:38] Hannah: Mm.

[00:47:39] Ben: every little thing and that's even at work in my corporate world.

Like, if I was afraid of it, I said, yes, I just made an agreement with myself that like, anytime I feel afraid, I'm going to say yes. And I remember one time I had this conversation with a woman and we, me and my. Fellow, like I was a supervisor and I had a team lead at the time. And we had to talk to her about her hygiene because it was so, what do you want to call it?

Just like not good. Right. Of like, people couldn't even sit by her. It was. On that level. And obviously that is not a fun conversation, right? That is extremely uncomfortable to talk to someone about that. But I, I was excited because I'm like, yes, like this is, I get to be uncomfortable. And so that shift of like getting excited for that moment was so helpful for me and it helped propel my career.

And of course, a decade later, I realized like, Oh, like I have this skillset that not a lot of people have. And then, you know, I went into coaching, but like the next level up from that, Right. Is like that discernment or coming from the energy of like, at that time, I did feel like I had to overcome it, which isn't wrong.

I feel like that's a good start starter. But the next point he has is like, Hmm, like, I don't have to force my way through it. So how can I just like, love my way through it?

[00:49:08] Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. It feels a lot less, a lot more gentle, a lot less like, because that to me, like if I had to say yes to everything that I really didn't want to do in corporate, like I'd be out of here.but I do get the sentiment of like, You know, moving through it, stretching yourself out of your comfort zone, every once in a while or step by step, that feels a lot more, sustainable over time and almost like.

It's not necessarily just pushing through, but also doing the work and understanding why am I afraid and what am I afraid of and what's really at the root, as you say, before it does then really only make sense for you to, you know, to, to, to, you know, to get into extra election, I guess. Love that. Then for anyone in corporate who.

is awfully quiet, which you can resonate with. what would you recommend they do when they feel kind of stuck when they feel kind of, you know, not really seen, not in a position where their work is being recognized and really unsure of how to move forward from based on your personal experience?

What would you tell them?

[00:50:25] Ben: I mean, I feel like, like what we just said before, like, of course you can just throw it out there and like, Just do it. Right, but I would say like, kind of like what we just, the process we went through, I would just ask like, how can you see yourself first? Like, how can you actually see yourself and recognize yourself 1st?

Because what's happening is that you're still looking for external approval, which is okay. We all do. That's how we're biologically wired. We want to be accepted and loved by our family and community and people. We are in close proximity with, but I would just say, like, how can you see yourself? Because that's really.

What you want, and that's, you just want to feel accepted. Like, that's really all it is. Like, you want to feel loved and accepted. So it's like, right. It's like, what we just talked about, like, it's not good enough. I don't belong something like in that realm. And so it's like, how can you validate yourself and not trying to like prove something to someone?

It was like, just do it for you. Like, what do you want to do? And like, actually, another thing I would say is like, turn down the voices of other people that tell you what they should be doing and just ask yourself, like, what it is that you really want.

[00:51:39] Hannah: Turn up the love. Turn down the voices around you. Love that.

[00:51:43] Ben: That's right. Maybe this episode will be called, you know, the song by little John that goes like, turn down for what?

[00:51:50] Hannah: I was thinking about that.

[00:51:50] Ben: the opposite of awfully quiet. I can go turn up the love bump, bump, but there you go

[00:51:58] Hannah: Well, we can think about this. Cool. Well, Ben, thank you so much for coming on. before we wrap up, I'd love for you to tell my audience where they can find you, how they can learn more, how they can potentially work with you. Like what's the typical client you work with?how does that work? Your podcast, like everything that people can use in terms of resources when it comes to, yeah, tapping their way into, into fear.

[00:52:26] Ben: for sure. So thank you. And yeah, like I ha I'm honestly proud of myself for the resources that I have available and I'll, I mean, sharing a recent fear that I had to overcome. I shared this earlier about this membership called the freedom school. There was a part of me that I was afraid because like I said, right, this thing is like 44 bucks a month.

I'm giving away all my stuff, like, of course, technically, it's not giving right, but the energy of is giving it and I was afraid I was like, Oh, like, what if I don't make as much money? Right? Or what if am I just giving everything away for like, not enough? And like, I realized, like, this is fear speaking, right?

Like, I'm not doing what I want to be doing because I'm afraid there won't be enough. But I'm not going to be recognized and I was looking to like, Ooh, I, like, I'm still using my gifts and my platform to feel validated, which again is okay and normal. But once I realized that I'm like, okay, I'm going to do this and it's been so liberating.

It's my favorite thing I've ever done. Like I mentioned is like I show up every single day and I'm doing 5 to 10 minute audio trainings or video trainings and I just, it's in the telegram app and you can watch or listen to all of them whenever we do Q and a calls and you get access to all of my. Like prerecorded courses and classes that are, you know, thousands of dollars.

So if you're just looking for a way to dip your toe in, cause I know it can be scary. I would say that, and I don't have that actually, no, you can, do you know when this episode is going to come out?

[00:54:10] Hannah: on April 30th.

[00:54:12] Ben: 30th. Okay. So if you're listening on April 30th or 31st, or maybe there is no 31st, May 1st, then I am doing a monthly challenge. Inside the membership and it's called I love money and that's a whole other thing that we can talk about. But like how I used to think that I love money was shameful.

Like, I shouldn't say that. Like, I shouldn't make, I shouldn't love money because that makes me selfish and greedy and all the things, but I realized by actually loving money, kind of like what we said about fear, right? It's like learning to love fear. Same thing with money. It was like, I felt shameful about this, about having it or not having it.

And that's what's interesting, right? Is like having too little shameful and having too much is shameful. So just loving it for what I have and what I want to have was extremely liberating for me. So if you're interested in, you know, nourishing and nurturing your relationship with money, that's going to be a fun thing we're doing in the membership too.

And that's called the Freedom School. You can find me on Instagram, just search The Fear Guy. I'm on LinkedIn. You can search Ben Harris or The Fear Guy because I think, yeah, on LinkedIn, my handle's also The Fear Guy. And then I have a couple one on one spots available, so if you feel like Yeah, I don't want to dip my toe.

I just, I want to dive into the pool I, and I want to get to the root of this stuff. And like, I'm ready. Like, I'm tired of being stuck and like, living on default mode. And, and you realize in this conversation that you're actually more afraid than you thought you were, yeah, I'd love to work with you.

And if you're the brave soul that wants to dive in, just shoot me a message on LinkedIn, shoot me a message on Instagram or wherever. And, My podcast is the fear alchemist. I'm not on there as much as I used to be, but there's still a big archive of plenty of, content. You can go listen to that's called the fear alchemist and my pocket or my website is feeling dash free.

Dot com

[00:56:08] Hannah: I

[00:56:08] Ben: all the things there you go. Go

[00:56:10] Hannah: I love how you're building this community, Ben, just because, and also the one thing To one support because I just felt how powerful it is to be taken through these prompts. Some of these problems you'll obviously, you know, people are aware of and I've read these, you know, some of these prompts before, but it's such a different experience when you have somebody ask them was like almost like a neutral person to you and who can call you out and some of your.

You know, what's, what's underlying and what's, you know, what's rooted deep inside. So I feel like this is such important work. I've taken away so much from this episode. So many aha moments, so many notes. And, I love that, my audience has this available to them now. So thank you so much for coming on.

[00:56:55] Ben: you're so welcome. Thank you for having me. This was so fun