Matthew 5:43, 48 in the Christian standard Bible, say you have heard that it was said, love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven. For he causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those you love, what reward will you have? Don't even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what are you doing out of the ordinary? Don't even the Gentiles do the same? Be perfect, therefore, as your Heavenly Father is perfect. In this passage, Jesus is giving what's commonly known as the Sermon on the Mount. And the message is one of both deconstruction and reconstruction, where Jesus goes point by point to show where the law was insufficient and how a greater principle can be found and than what the religion of the time offered. Mike Morelli, how might this practice of pushing past religious dogma for greater principles help us find greater unity in the Church today?

Well, I'm going to make the counterintuitive point that oftentimes when we think about doctrine or dogma, we think about who's out and who's in. So who do we need to push out in order to teach this doctrine or dogma and hold to it and protect it? But what I love about passages like the one you just read is that it actually says doctrine is important, especially when we ask, like, what's the fruit of it? And so when I hear that passage, I'm like, what kind of doctrine leads to those types of practices? Right? And so what if we said, you know, verses like these don't challenge us to move past doctrine or dogma, but actually get us to revisit what we think our most important doctrines are and then go from there. So it's not necessarily moving past doctrine, but saying, what are the doctrines that we count as foundational to this faith we call Christian? And have we lost sight of them because we prioritized doctrines that actually aren't core to who we are? And I think Jesus so often in the Gospels is saying this all the time. You've heard it said. But I say to you, truly, I tell you, hey, haven't you read this? Or hey, aren't you supposed to be the people who are the teachers of the law? Like, aren't you supposed to be the ones leading everybody? You're missing the point here. Or you skip this verse, right? So on the one hand it's saying like, like we need to be wary of dogma. In terms of ideology, I'm very anti ideology because I think it's another way of talking about idolatry. But also as a theologian, as an ethicist, I'm like, no, let's talk about doctrine, but also consider the practical realities that come out of the doctrines that we count as most important to who we are.

Yeah, yeah. Good stuff. Good stuff. Hey, guys, welcome to the Whole Church podcast. Possibly your favorite church unity podcast. Possibly not, which is cool too. You know, we don't have competition with other podcasts about how much more united we can be than them because that's super self defeating. I am Joshua Noel. You might be able to tell I am sick, but I have to be here because I have one job in the world. It's actually the only thing I do. I don't exist unless you see me. Here to announce the one and only greatest co host of all time, the pot almighty, T.J. tiberius Juan Blackwell. Welcome to your show.

Thanks.

Yeah. And we're also here with an incredible guest. Really excited for this. And we're going to be talking with Mike Morelli. He's the assistant professor of theology, culture and ethics at Northwest Seminary and the host of Personalist Manifestos, which if you're not listening to, hit subscribe to that podcast. You don't even need to listen. Just hit subscribe and listen later. It's great.

You have a PhD in theological ethics from the University of Aberdeen, Scotland. You wrote. You've written a couple of. You've written more than one book now, right?

I have written one book and I have edited another. Gotcha.

So you wrote Theology, Ethics and Technology in the work of Jacques Ellul and Paul Ferrillo, a nascent theological tradition.

Yep.

You publish and present on a variety of topics within the fields of theology, morality, culture, politics, and technology. You've also worked in local church ministry and continue to serve the church in a lake capacity. And you enjoy spending time with your family and friends that I've heard. And surrounding yourself with art, media, cooking and coffee. Very Vancouver.

Yeah.

I love when people have websites that very plainly say, this is who I am, because then I just put that in the outline. It's great.

Yeah, Yeah. I just want to say serve that up for you because I know the work it is. You, like, do the interview while you prep for the interview. You do the interview and then you're like, oh, shoot, I forgot to ask for a photo and bio. Right. So if it's just there on the website, served up to you on a nice platter.

Oh, that's fantastic.

It's better than our website. The only thing you can really do over there is purchase a T shirt. That's not true. But you can do that.

So you can listen to the podcast,

subscribe, listen to the show.

We do have content when we remember to do it.

Yep. But it helps promote the show. It raises money for podcasting needs because it's not free. And it lets others know about the importance of our mission to educate and unite the modern church. Josh, this is one of the few times that I've seen you record without wearing one of our shirts, so.

Yeah, well, usually I'll just change real quick and put a whole church podcast shirt on, but I'm sick today and didn't feel like doing all that, so I'm still wearing a Systematic Ecology T shirt, so still reference one of our podcasts.

But it's a great shirt.

Yeah, thanks. Also great shirt is the diverse church on the whole church website, because it's got the whole church like, thing on the front and in the back it's got like a church that's like, I do bricks that's like, kind of shattered and has like, all the different, like, doctrines that we've disagreed with over the years and some of the denominations, like the Pillars of the church. It looks cool. Check it out.

Yeah, that's like.

I don't know how to explain it.

That's like the only one that I've. I wore at beer camp that had something on it.

Say. Yeah, usually you just do the one with the TJ quote on the back.

Yeah. The one with nothing.

That in fact has nothing on the back. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Guys, also check out some of the other shows on the Amazon Podcast Network, please. Gotta shout out a few of the other ones. I'll shout out Be Living Water. I've been missing a couple weeks because family stuff and then I was sick, but I'm getting back to it. We're starting Daniel one. I have that outline ready. Check out Cismic Ecology. Since we mentioned it, check out Kung Fu Pizza Party with Brandon Knight. Theology on the Rocks with Leah and Christy. Sorry, they both have last names. Dr. Reverend Leah Robinson and Dr. Christy Whaley. We love them. They've been on the show recently, so make sure you check out Theology on the Rocks while you're over there. And of course, we are going to start our show off with what we always start off with, which is a sacred, sacred sacrament super serious. Because we're very serious about our silliness here. We like to start our show off with a silly question. Just get things rolling here. Today's pretty easy. What's the best and worst green food? I say easy. It's pretty straightforward. I don't know. Easy.

Straightforward.

Easy question is.

Actually, I did have a clarifying question about the silly question. Are we saying, like, food that is the color green or green in terms of healthy color?

Oh, yeah. No color. I mean color, but okay, I like color.

I can do color.

Yeah.

And I go first.

No, you don't.

Oh, no. First give you time to think about it.

Okay, sweet.

Yeah. But I'm. I'm still thinking, so DJs gonna go first because he's gonna do something else later.

It is. It is a hard question. So, best green food. It's hard to not just cheat and be like, oh, green Guinness, you know, for St. Patrick's Day.

That's not a food. Well,

I mean, it's kind of like, you know, as close to a food that you can get. Yeah, Guinness on an empty stomach.

Yeah. It's hard, though, because I wanted to say the worst green food is peas. But the older I get, the more I really like split pea soup. I don't know, it kind of connects me with the French peasantry in a way that makes it really easy to get into some. Some classic literature. I just don't know if I'm negative enough about food to be like, yeah, this is the worst picking.

The worst is hard.

Kale.

I like kale, actually.

Yeah.

Really like kale.

I bet you do.

What's your. What was your best green food? What did you say for the best one?

That's hard.

That's really hard, too. Does watermelon count?

I mean, it's green on the outside.

Yeah. Sweet.

Sweet. So for best, I struggle because I was thinking of, like, my favorite or the most versatile, what I eat the most often. But none of those necessarily make it the best because, like, green beans should be up there. I eat green beans a lot, and they go with so many different dishes. They're great, health wise, also pretty good. But I ended up thinking also my favorite green vegetable would be serrano pepper. Favorite green food. It's great. But that is nutritionally wise, I'm like, yeah, it's not much there. It's. It's hard to go with fast. So I'm gonna go with worst first. For me, the worst is lettuce. There's almost no nutritional value. I hate how it tastes I hate the texture of it. I just. I don't get it. I'm like, why. Why are we eating this?

I love lettuce, man.

Yeah, not me. You know, I'm gonna go best is spinach, because I actually really like spinach. You wouldn't have Popeye without spinach. And, you know, you can use a salad base for all kinds of different stuff. It works smoothies. Works in smoothies. Oh, yeah. I'm gonna go spinach. Yeah.

Michael. Well, in terms of least favorite, TJ took mine. Kale. Yeah. I'm not a very. I'm not a very picky eater, I can honestly say that. But it just. It just is so hard to digest that I. It doesn't go well with me. Like, I got digest. I got issues. I've had Crohn's disease since I was 18, so there's a few things that. That are difficult to digest. So I avoid kale. That. But even then, if, like, you. You've kind of air fried and gets kind of crispy, then it's a little bit easier, like crispy kale, but, like, just kale on its own salad. I'm like, steer clear. I'd say my favorite. You know, I'm really. This isn't a food so much as like a garnish or something. You just, you know, squeeze to limes. I love limes. And I. And I was never really a huge fan of limes, but over the years, I've just really started to appreciate lime, like, in a drink as a garnish.

Does this happen to coincide with, like, when you started drinking margaritas or.

You know, I'm not a big margarita guy. Like, I'm not totally against them, but I'm also not totally for them. Like, I'm very simple and straightforward. I. I like beer and whiskey

that,

you know, it's like Nick Miller from New Girl says it's like whatever a coal miner would drink, you know, whatever. What kind of drink do you want after digging in a hole all day? That's kind of my preferences. Not that I'm, like, trying to flex in terms of, you know, toxic masculinity, but that's kind of what my go tos. I like a good margarita now and then, so, yeah, limes, but that's not really a food, so I eat limes. Okay. I love limes. Okay. You just, like. You eat them like an orange. I'm not that big of a fan. Okay. Good for you.

We use them a lot at Chipotle. Yeah, that's when I Started realizing I actually really like limes.

Yeah. I haven't paid for lime and I

don't know how long. Yeah. What's funny is you're indirectly reminded me of another green food that I feel like I have to honorably mention because drinks. I mentioned this, like, with Theology on the Rocks. Usually I'm either like what a coal miner drinks, or I'm the exact opposite. I just don't do the middle. Like, I don't do like a regular dry wine. It's either going to be like super sweet, fruity wine. Appletini, easy on the teeny. Or it's like stout, just the middle ground. For some reason I struggle with. Yeah. But yeah, Appletini, easy on the teeny.

Yeah.

Green apples. Green apples definitely deserve a shout out.

Yeah. Granny Smith apples are. Are nature's sour candy.

Yeah. I actually started eating them because I Pirates of the Caribbean and just never stopped. I was pretty young when those came out.

Yeah.

Back in the day.

Yeah. Well, yeah, I grew up in Florida, so it was oranges. I was at Carolinas. I saw someone eating green apples, I guess start eating apples.

But there's. There's more to the show than talking about food, so.

Unfortunately.

Yeah. To start the actual. The body. We have found that one of the best ways to engender unity is to hear one another's stories. So, Mike, could you. Would you mind sharing some of your history with the church with us or your faith in general?

That. That kind of thing?

Give us the spiel.

Yeah. So the more I tell my story, actually, probably the more evident it will be that unity and ecumenism. Ecumenism, Ecumenism. It's fine.

It's like sea Eminemy. You know, it's like Eminem and Eminem.

It's ecumenicism.

People getting along is really important to me. But yeah, so I actually grew up in more high church contexts. My dad was born in southeast Italy and his family immigrated when he was one, so he was raised Catholic. And my mom was born in Calgary, Alberta here in Canada and was raised white Anglo Saxon Protestant. So I grew up actually in the Anglican church. I was baptized as an infant. And so, yeah, for sure.

Right in the middle. That is really funny.

Yeah. And all these years later, I think I've talked about it on the podcast before, but my own podcast or other podcast before, but, you know, all these years later, I've looked back at that foundation for me and I'm like, wow, mom and Dad, I have all these friends that grew up more in evangelical Homes and they're deconstructing and going mainline, as it were, or going to the Catholic Church and stuff. And I look at sort of my background, like, wow, that was, that was a real gift. Like, I feel like I was just formed at a very cellular level in terms of the liturgy, the architecture, the hymn. I mean, at the time, you know, as a little kid, it's hard to buy into some of that. But looking back now, where I'm at, I'm like, wow, that was so formative for me in so many ways. And then in high school, I had a friend who invited me to a youth group at a Christian Missionary alliance church. And that was a big step for me in terms of I'm a musician. I started playing bass guitar in grade seven and learned electric guitar later and all that sort of stuff. And so going to a church with more, more people my age, you know, a live band and that sort of thing was, was, was super big for me at the time. And that's where I think there was a level of investment in my own faith that emerged as a result of being a part of that community. And before I got into academia, I was actually a pastor within the Christian Missionary Alliance. I was a worship arts pastor. And I was en route for ordination, but when I graduated from seminary, I ended up getting hired at a Baptist church, part of a denomination called the Fellowship Baptists in Canada. And so I've actually been with, quote, unquote, the Baptists ever since. I teach now at a Fellowship Baptist school here in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, and go to a Fellowship Baptist church. And even when my wife and I moved to Scotland so I could go back to school and do a PhD, we tried out a bunch of churches, anything from Anglican to Methodist to Pentecostal, but we ended up at Baptist Church, Baptist Union of Scotland Church. So there are a lot of things about the Baptist tradition that I love. There are things that I wrestle with as well. And what I kind of say, I'm like, well, I guess the spirit has led me to the Baptist tradition. And at times I'm like, why do the Baptists like me? But they seem to enjoy at least parts of what I bring. And I think part of what I think maybe draws people a little bit more is like, I am an out of the box thinker because of my background, right? So I tell students, I tell people I'm kind of a mainline influence Baptistal. So, you know, I love, like scripture, I love preaching, you know, I love my 30 to 45 minute exegetical sermons, but I also love baptism and communion, the tangibility of them. I love the local church and I also love the Holy Spirit. So that's kind of gives you an idea of where I come from and my background and. And I would say in terms of church unity, how I am often the person who's like, look, I know Protestants, when they struggle to have a sense of identity, they'll just beat up on Catholics because it's kind of like Canadians and Americans. It's like, ask a Canadian what does it mean to be Canadian? You're like, well, we really like hockey. Tim Hortons started here. And we're not American. Sometimes Protestants are like, well, we know we're not Catholic.

And.

And there's a lot of judgment that's thrown there. And I speak from the perspective of somebody who has lots of family members who are devout Catholics. I grew up going to confirmations and baptisms and stuff, so I just have a level of comfort in those worlds that someone who grew up sort of evangelical and has stayed in that world and. Or deconstructed and left. I just have a sense of, like, understanding and at homeness with some of those things that might cause other people to be a little bit uncomfortable. Yeah.

I do feel like since we did talk about your background and stuff, it wouldn't really be fair if we left out the fact that Leah Robinson thought you were Mexican. Good friend of the show, Leo Robinson.

Just love calling Leah out when we can.

It's so funny.

I feel bad, though, because on their last episode, I got groomed as a part of the nice guys group. It was Nick Polk, somebody else, and then me, and I was like, man, even if it wasn't like, just the nice guy, I think it might have been Mike, actually. But even if it wasn't just the nice guys, like, just being in a group with Nick always makes me happy. I gotta be extra nice to Leah this episode.

They did call you a Theobro.

Did they?

Or me a Theobro?

No, Josh.

Yeah.

Okay.

I called myself a Theobro on something too, because I'm like, you know, technically, I think me and Josh Patterson probably. Actually, Mike probably does too. We probably count.

Oh, Josh definitely counts.

Yeah.

I don't know what makes you count.

Negative thing. It has to be negative.

I don't know what makes you count. I feel like. I don't know. I. It's really funny.

It's one of those things that you can't ascribe to yourself.

Yeah, I pass. Yes. Someone else has to say it. I passes a lot of things, actually. It's weird. And, you know, having a father from Italy, it's like. It's like that as soon as people see last name, like, oh, really? You must have lots. Lots of, you know, uncles and aunts and cousins and loud and, like, food or whatever. But sometimes people like Leah mistake me for people like Damien, and. And I'm honored, you know, I'm honored to be mistaken. Yeah.

When.

Other times, you know, I pass with a Theobro crowd. But as my one friend said, once you really start speaking, you let all those folks down, and I feel just a big letdown.

That said, though, if I ever text you, it's gonna start with, hey, Theo bro.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Running joke.

Yeah. No, the. You know, it's interesting, though, because I feel like listening to all your story, it's like somehow I feel like I'm looking at a mirror almost. Almost like the opposite side. So 1. Just because you mentioned the Italian thing. So I'll start with the easy thing first. TJ had spent years guessing my ethnicity when he was a camper because I was counselors.

How we met.

I gave up a long time ago.

Yeah, I mean, you got it eventually, I think. Actually, no. You bet. That if you beat me in Claire bunnies, I had to tell you that's how you got it anyway.

And then I forgot it, which is perfect. Really good bunnies, though.

But, yeah, everything else, though. Like, I have a lot of family that are Catholic, but we were like, oh, there's the Catholic part of the family. And I grew up going to a Pentecostal church, but it was the Pentecostal church that the other Pentecostal church made fun of by calling it the Baptistals. And it's because our head pastor learned at a Baptist church. And a lot of the doctrine was very obviously influenced from. From that. And I don't know. Like, I say. I'll say deconstructed, but I didn't like it where I'm like, oh, I hate the church or something. Like, I think I deconstructed and reconstructed, but, like, I don't seem to quite fit in with the guys who usually use those kind of language. But I do end up. End up in the long run, found myself at a Lutheran church with pastor Will, so it's kind of like I end up in mainline Protestant at the end.

Oh, you go to Will's church?

Yeah.

Oh, that's awesome. Will's such a beauty. And here's the thing. I was in a conversation.

Such a good chicken.

Yeah, for sure. It's Stellar. No, I. So I was in a conversation that I haven't posted yet on. On my podcast. I think it was with Andy Squires, but we were talking about deconstruction, and there's. There's a type where it's like you deconstruct and you leave, and then there's, like, just honestly asking questions and growing, and that's just maturation as a disciple. Like, since when. Since when do we need to, like, prescribe a negative label for growing? You know? Like, I mean, for some people. Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm pretty sure that happened to all the disciples that Jesus called to follow him. Right. I mean, change in growth and depth and breadth are, like, part of discipleship. So I kind of say to people, like, don't freak out. And even further back with Israel, they're anti idolatry, dismantling stuff, using other, you know, nation stories to tell their story like it's. It's baked in. Folks, everybody just needs to chill out, take a breath, ask a couple questions. It's going to be okay. You know, God's that big.

Like it, like it, man. Maybe if I remember, this will end up being the clip that I put on Instagram. But, Mike, my most quotable moment.

Everybody needs to chill out. Whatever works for you. I introduce as Michael, but it's kind of a nice sound blast from the past when people say Mike, because, you know, I grew up being called Mike. Mike M. Because Michael used to be a very popular name back in the day.

So, yeah, my middle name is Michael.

Oh, sweet.

Yeah, there you go.

That also. Okay, that's a whole story to it, too. But moving past it, though, you are really focusing on kind of like this intersection not just of theology, but of theology, ethics, and pop culture. What is it that kind of drew you to playing with all three at once? I guess.

Oh, that's a. That's a long story that starts probably in childhood, where I was always drawn to stories and art and music and creative things. I am the youngest of three boys, and apparently the youngest child is somehow always drawn to, you know, family of origin theory stuff. It says that youngest children often are drawn to creative stuff as a way of, like, differentiating themselves from their older siblings. And I guess I am predictable in that sense. But, yeah, I always took an interest in pop culture and art, and one of my spiritual gifts is just memorizing lines from films, whether it's a serious film or totally pointless, you know, surface comedy plot lines, you know, who played in what band when they recorded it. And the mythology surrounding the recording session. Like, I just was wired that way from the beginning. And, you know, fast forward to my undergrad and it was like, well, what am I going to do? And I majored in English and I minored in communications. And I didn't even know that communications was a disc discipline until I saw course descriptions where it was like, here's a whole course on TV or film, advertising, news media. I was like, wow, you can take a whole class on that stuff. And so that really led me deeper into things like media theory. And this was my first encounter with the continental philosophers, sociologists, theologians. Later, it's like being introduced to the Frankfurt School for the first time was like Walter Benjamin or Theodora Adorno, Max Horkheimer writing about popular culture and treating it as a text that was worth serious analysis, criticism, and these sorts of things. It just kind of gave me permission to do that of like, wait a second, you know, Donald Duck can be interesting just in terms of, like, entertainment, but also Donald Duck can be a signifier for, like, structures and superstructures of, you know, like, determinative mechanisms of society. And. And so that was when the, like the media theory and that way of analyzing cultural texts, whether it was popular culture or like high culture or what have you, became possible. And then later stumbling into theology through philosophy. That was kind of the sort of next development. And so, very simply, in terms of theology, that's a discipline that I feel at home in. And I still work with a variety of texts, including pop culture ones, because they help us visualize or concretize what can seem all too theoretical at points. Right? So just to give you a practical example, like, I'm teaching an Intro to Worldview course right now for first year undergrads. And so we'll talk about nihilism, right? Or we'll talk about New Age spirituality. And at key moments, I'll show them clips from TV shows or films to really help them say, okay, now that we've talked about the theory that informs this worldview or these worldviews, let's watch a scene. Sometimes it's from Parks and Rec, other times it's from, like, an art film, you know, like First Reformed. Or I'll show them, you know, when we're doing nihilism and like, postmodernism plays by Samuel Beckett, right? So those are all ways of just saying, like, this isn't theory. We can see this actually represented in our surroundings in something as basic and everyday as a Netflix series or something you stumble onto on YouTube. So, yeah, and as early as Augustine, he was like, you know, can non Christian thinkers and artists tell us anything of value? And the answer is yes. The minds of God's providence, he said, work in such a way that. That even the non Christian folks can give us jewels or silver or gold. So I like to mine, you know, both within Christian tradition and beyond it.

Yeah, yeah, I like all that. My brain's like.

And also I'm a nerd.

Game of Thrones.

Yeah. Well, so I. And also I'm a nerd too. So. So that was like my academic answer to the question. But also I just. I just love it. I love to nerd out about pop culture.

We should get you on Cismak Ecology sometime.

Oh, heck, yes.

Yeah. Be good. The. Also, since you mentioned Donald Duck, just want to. Of course, obligatory. Because Kingdom Hearts. Donald Duck does know the most powerful magic in all of Final Fantasy. Just got to shout that out. Donald Duck's a pretty important guy. But on a more serious note, have you seen any of the stuff about Donald Duck dealing ptsd? Do you know about all that?

No, but that definitely sounds, like, interesting.

We talk about it sometime because it's. It's all that. Because, like, part of his earlier stuff was just marketing the war for people for, you know, Disney got paid to market the war, so they use Donald Duck and then post that he's single dad and there's like a lot of stuff throughout the different shows and stuff that's kind of like, oh, he is a former. That and stealing with ptsd. That's why he acts this way. And it's really interesting.

Well, yeah, because he wears the navy costume. He doesn't wear the pants. But he's got the. Yeah. That he's often mad.

Yeah. It's crazy. And he never remembers to cure you.

Maybe it's an allegory for losing your legs in the war.

Who knows? Yeah.

Or maybe he's a duck and he doesn't like to wear pants.

Yeah. Who knows either one either.

It's easier to swim when you're not wearing pants. But he could wear shorts.

True, too.

I don't know if I agree, but I'm a really good swimmer.

But you wear pants when you swim.

I like to. I need the extra resistance.

You have really like to.

Yeah, I have really big legs, so.

All right. Moving past does not have really big legs, so you gotta think about that. Yeah.

He does have really big feet, though.

Flippers.

Yeah. But another thing that we've just kind of like to do to help us get to Know our guest better and get our audience to know you better is our speed round segment. So I'm gonna ask you a bunch of questions and there, there are two rules. You have to answer each question in one sentence or you can skip it and we cannot ask you any follow up questions. That rule is for Josh.

We did add a third rule though. If you do a run on sentence, you have to verbalize all punctuation. Right? Right.

There's no limit to how long your sentence can be, but it does need to be properly written.

Gotcha.

Yeah. Yeah.

So are you ready?

Mm.

Cool. Who or what is God love? If there was a scale from double predestination Calvinism to process theology, where would you put yourself on that scale?

Barth's reworking of the doctrine of election is straight fire and semicolon and comma, that leads me to a hope that all will be saved.

Do you fall more in line with a pre, mid or post tribulation reading of Revelation?

Trick answer. All millennial. The apocalypse is now and not yet, baby. Apocalyptic theology.

So what authority does scripture have?

Lots. And that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. But I would say it's true and authoritative. But let's not like bludgeon people to death.

All right. What authority does tradition have?

Oh yeah, well, you're talking to a theologian. So I say a good theologian is a good reader of the Bible. And so reading a good theologian helps you be a good reader of the Bible. So that's my long answer for tradition.

All right.

And what do you love about the church?

That it's all these people who would not otherwise get together. Getting together, worshiping this guy named Jesus and really miraculous things happen. Even though sometimes really unmiraculous things happen as well. It's a messy thing. There's an EM dash with that last. It's a messy beautiful thing flagged for AI.

That's what that guy.

Yeah.

So which creed is most significant to the modern church?

Apostles.

Are you more a cessationist or a continuationist?

Oh, well, I said I love the Holy Spirit, so, you know, why. Not only is there a scriptural like basis for like the Spirit still doing things, why would you not want the Spirit to do things today? Like, sorry, Spirit. We got it from here.

Yeah, we're good now.

We figured it out. I'm not good. That's an ironic statement.

Big TJ's legs were gone be. Yeah, that's what it was. It did, actually.

So concerning the doctrine of hell, do you lean More into eternal conscious torment, annihilationism or universal reconciliation.

Yeah, I mean, I'll go back to Bart's doctrine of election, and what I said earlier is, I hope it's not eternal conscious torment.

Me too. Me too. So which of these seven sacraments do you hold to, if any?

Yeah, this is where I'm like Baptist or low church, so preaching, baptism, communion.

Yep.

The other ones are cool too, though, but. But those are the. Those are the three. The big three.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Way to go.

Yeah.

Congratulations. I never doubted you.

Oh, thanks, man. Thank you. I doubted myself. I come across as confident, but I have paralyzing self doubt.

Anything that involves having to do things quickly, I really doubt myself on. Unless it's food related quickly. And speaking when those two are combined, I doubt myself. I can chop some vegetables pretty quick, though. On your podcast, though, Mike, you lean into ideas similar to some of the mystics, and you focus more on this kind of relational aspect of theology rather than primarily just that mechanical, maybe systematic one. Not that you don't do both. You do both, but you seem really focused on the relational bit. How do you think that might help our ecumenical efforts, like what we do on our show?

Yeah, I think this is where ethics comes in and as much as possible, stressing the relationship between theology, scripture, ethics, and aesthetics, I think, and then also context. And one of the things that I have observed, being in the tradition that I am, is a lot of people don't know what ethics is. Or we talk about things like applied theology or practical theology or pastoral theology, and there's this suspicion that it not only is a lesser form of theology when you compare it to systematic theology, but also it's somehow muddying things up. Right. So if. If systematic theology is, quote, unquote, pure theology that we get from scripture and with help from tradition, then this thing we call ethics, that's saying, okay, well, we, we just laid out, you know, what we. What we believe. How does that actually work its way out in everyday life, you know, for individual disciples, you know, for local churches, for the church universal. There's a suspicion at times of people like me, you know, beyond our discipline, that that's somehow bringing in considerations, you know, experience that you shouldn't just keep it pure. Right. Let it work itself out. But I actually think bringing in that applied component, bringing in that relational component is not only act. Actually really difficult to do, like intellectually, so. So synthesizing theory and thinking about how it actually works its way out in everyday life. I also think it's Critically important, because it's. It helps us see where our doctrine goes. It helps us see, you know, okay, well, what does this mean for this group or that group? Or that group? Right. Who does this exclude? Who does this, you know, put at the center of power? Who does this hurt? Who does this help? Those are all things that aren't just important if you care about people. And I think we should care about people because it's part of the two great commandments, and that's connected to our vision of God and our worship of God. But also, if we pay attention to practices, if we pay attention to aesthetics, that's going to tell us something about our doctrine. That's going to tell us something about the way we're reading scripture, and that's going to tell us something about how our context has. Has shaped how we do all of those things. And so I think the relational element is incredibly important because for a long time, I think people have just sort of sidelined that, and we're seeing the bitter fruit of it. And I think it's actually really led a lot of people doctrinally astray. So that's my little mini sermon for ethics, practical theology, applied theology. They take seriously how doctrine informs relationships and how relationships inform doctrine.

Good stuff.

Yeah. So you also focus on relational spirituality, where you see stuff like prayer and faith as participation with the divine, rather than a more passive kind of thing that others might be familiar with. How might we be able to participate in prayer for the unity of the church today?

Wow, that's a. That's a. That's a big one. But participation is a word that I think about a lot. This kind of fits into this talk about the Holy Spirit in the speed round. A lot of people maybe listening to this podcast, you know, are sort of raised with this idea, like, we go out and build the kingdom, and I think actually our union with Christ, our participation in the reality of Christ, in the presence and work of the Spirit, because the Father desires it, means that we actually don't build the kingdom. We first try to discern where the kingdom is already being built by the Spirit, and we go there and participate. And it's only our union with Christ. Our participation is reality that makes that possible. So prayer is incredibly important because prayer is a critical part of that discernment. And individual prayer, communal prayer, but also psalms, the prayers that were actually given in the Bible. And, you know, if we're talking about church unity, the psalms are so curious to me because, you know, the psalms of worship or the royal psalms or the Psalms of ascent, the celebration ones, you know, the positive ones, tend to be sort of implicitly or explicitly treated as more worshipful than the Psalms of Lament. And yet there's no hierarchy. Right. The. The complaining psalms, the indictment of God and our enemy, is just as much worshipful in the Psalter as the ones where we're saying, like, let's go and ascend God on the whole, like, ascend the holy hill to worship God. And so, like, there is a psalm for every season, every emotion, every, like, spiritual experience, physical experience. And if as communities, we were able to use those prayers to give voice to some of our deepest yearnings and angst and anger, I think that would do something for not just ourselves, but for unity and also for the communities that, you know, churches are in. So, yeah, I think it's critically important.

Yeah, yeah. I want to. I'm gonna make a statement that maybe people disagree with. We'll see. But I think this is probably safe. I think there's a difference, though, of treating it all as, like, equally true or not and equally valid. So, like, for me, I wouldn't put, you know, the saying, how blessed it is to take babies of our enemies and throw them against rocks on the same truth. You know, I wouldn't evaluate that as true as I would like, oh, God is great and does good things, you know, But I think both of those are just as valid as far as, like, our participation with God, maybe how

you would word it.

Yes. Yeah. And I think there's. Yeah, I think you're right to say that. Right. This is exactly where the ethics come in and our hermeneutics come in. Because the psalm you mentioned, actually the first sermon, I believe I preached, or maybe this is the second sermon, but I was preaching on that psalm and.

Crazy first sermon.

Yeah, I know, but, you know, by the rivers of Babylon, we sat down and wept. How can we sing our song in a foreign land? And, you know, you got to handle psalms and prayers and texts like that with care and say, well, number one, how's this being translated? But number two, like, it says something that they say this in a prayer in a moment of deep trauma and anger. They're saying this in a moment of captivity when they're being bullied and harassed and enslaved by people. So this is. And that God. We don't have a follow up. And God responded to their prayers and dashed all their babies on the rock. It actually should be singular, not plural. Right. And some scholars think it's actually a reference to Hammurabi's code, which was written on a lock rock, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. So it was kind of them appealing to the law of the nation that has enslaved them. Being like, by their laws, this should happen. So we're just going to put this out there. God. But yeah, no, I mean, I think you're right, though, to make that point. Like, we have to be careful about how that actually cashes out in the way we live.

Yep.

Harambee's thing is not something I heard before. That's not super interesting, though. That's a.

You learn about that in, like, middle school?

No, like, I learned about it, but I didn't hear about that as like, in context of throwing them against the rock. Like, I'm like, oh, yeah, actually it helps.

Really? It helps. You feel a little bit more comfortable with that ending.

Yeah. I don't know. In my mind, I'm like, that's still super cruel, but at least it's clever cruel, not just pissed off cruel.

Well, you know, I mean, to be fair to Israel there. I mean, Babylonians did that to their. Their babies. Right. And so it's an appeal. I mean, again, it doesn't make it right, but if, you know, if that happens to your child, like you are going to in your heart, whether you vocalize it or not, probably want some sort of retribution for it, and what do you do with that desire? And also, actually, it says a lot that that song Psalm has been used in a lot of reggae songs. You know, and reggae is so often like happy clappy, you know, that's how people even like. No, actually, reggae is a music of rebellion. You know, it. It comes out of people figuring out ways to deal with the trauma of slavery in Jamaica. So Jimmy Cliff has a great by the Rivers of Babylon. Yeah, people can look that up.

Yeah, yeah. But I am, man. I'm trying to. Oh, no, no. I was actually. I remember now because I try not talk about it too much, but see, when you think of it like, how they feel too. And again, it goes to that. The validity versus truth value, I guess is the best way I can think of what it. Cause like, for me, because, you know, you're talking about, like, if you had your baby's astronomy. Like I think of over a year ago now, there was a shooting at my house. My dog got shot, bullet grazed my wife's arm. I didn't lose anybody. But man, those anger psalms really feel more valid at that moment than the Praise God, he's so Good songs, you know, like it's like, I just kind of need this I'm pissed off song maybe.

Well, first of all, I'm sorry that that happened and sounds really scary and traumatic, but I think that's precisely the power of the Psalms is like, here is. Here is. It actually gives language to experiences that you go through. And, you know, the older you get, the more you have experiences that don't fit into the happy clappy, Everything's okay. And, you know, I. I have colleagues who, you know, have their doctorates in psychology and stuff, and they say, like, the psalms are. Are not only for worship, but they're actually, like, therapeutic.

Yeah, that was. That's just always relevant. I. Yeah, people. I know a lot of people who. The more educated they become, they're like, yeah, the Bible will just. Still makes just as much sense to me. It never really diminishes at all.

Just in a different way.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And so, yeah, it's a way of saying especially too, like, on the other side of the crucifixion, resurrection, violence, physical, emotional, spiritual, psychological violence becomes increasingly difficult. I would say, even impossible to defend. And so that's kind of my check on the more violent prayers as well, is like, yeah, you know, we worship Jesus, who, although he, you know, had all the angels at his command, it could have thrown down terms of violence, didn't go that way, but went the way of sacrifice and crucifixion. And that's totally countercultural. And the psalms were his. His prayers. And so, you know, Jesus also guards against those going past the words of prayer that are a little bit more violent to the actual physical violence. It crosses the capital N no to that type of behavior.

Oh, yeah, right.

So for people interested in your show, which pop culture, character and theologian, contemporary combo best capture your personality and your approach to theology?

Do you think so? I mean, I've always loved superheroes, comic book characters growing up. So I'm going to give you, like, two of my platonic ideals, and then I'll give you my realist one. So I always love Batman. I always love Batman. And I'm a D.C. guy. I like Marvel. If I were to choose a Marvel superhero, I always like Gambit from X Men. I thought Gambit was cool. Yeah, I just. I don't think I have enough Riz to be Gambit, though.

I think you could pass. I think you. I think you can handle that.

Oh, thanks. See, tj, this is why you're my mvp. You're just like, you're always there, just encouraging me when I'm doubting myself. So one of the guys that have. Has grown on me is actually Incredible Hulk. And he was a student who said I was like, incredible Hulk because he said, michael, you are zealous about people and you have a pretty long fuse. He said, but, but every once in a while, you, you turn green and you smash things like Hulk. And, and, and he's right. Like, I, I really, when, when people are being harmed, especially vulnerable people, like, that's what sets me off and that's what causes me to turn green. But I'm generally like, I try to be kind, although I am a passionate, intense person. I try to privilege kindness, and I try to understand and have empathy and compassion. But every once in a while, I go from Bruce Banner to Hulk and I smash things. But as my students said, sometimes Hulk feels sad after. And that line in the Marvel movies when it's like, the trick is I'm always mad. It's like my secret. I'm always angsty and mad. But it's like I see the, the, the, the. I try to exude the positivity, but every once in a while the, the, the. The Hulk rage comes out.

Yeah, I thought you were setting us up for what I call the TJ jokes. And you were gonna say, you were just gonna say I turned green and get mad. No, like, I literally turned into a green rage monster. So I think I'm pretty close to the Hulk.

Yeah, yeah. It's a really tough review to get on rate my professors. He's literally the Hulk. Don't piss him off.

He turns into a green monster.

Yeah, yeah, no, I don't actually turn into a green monster yet. Contemporary theologian, though, I don't know, I feel like that's for other people to say where that, like, I have contemporary theologians that I really appreciate.

What about theologians?

Old theologians? Well, you know, you were talking about Luther, Joshua, and I, I, I am. I really like, there's this through line. I got this from my PhD supervisor, but there's this through line from Augustine to Luther to Kierkegaard. And I don't take Augustine wholesale, but there are things that he talked about that I really appreciate. And the influence of that on Luther, who was an Augustinian monk, and then the influence on Kierkegaard from Luther. Those all really speak to me. They kind of vibe and for me. And so, I mean, I like Kierkegaard and maybe that explains some of the more existential, personal, relational, anti authority person in me. But I also appreciate institutions. I think that the Alternative. Not having them is not a better alternative. I just want to see our institutions be better. So, yeah, I like Kierkegaard, but I would never compare myself to that guy because I'm not like smart enough on my best day.

So you're not German?

Danish.

Oh, yeah. My brain went from. From Luther to that.

Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah, I see. Yeah. No, I'm also. I'm also not German enough. I. My prose. I don't write sentences long as the Germans.

That's fine.

They never remind me of Game four Sentences originally.

Yes. When they translated it.

Yeah, they translated it. It became a book.

Yeah, yeah. The game we used to play. I don't. My brains. It's too late for me to be awake. We used to play this at like church retreats and it was a. I would start with you remind me of. And you just keep going. And the furthest you can get and trace it back, you have to like be able to go all the way back through your things. That's now your nickname. And so just like how you did like Augustine Da Luther. I was like, you know, I kind of remind you we used to. I wouldn't call you Augustine though. That's just mean.

I know. I feel like Augustine's a four letter word for the anti classical theists.

Yeah. They'll live though.

Yeah. So, Michael, is there anything that you often hope that you get asked about that people just don't ask often enough?

I mean, I love talking about the pop culture stuff. I mean, there are some people who indulge me on it. But yeah, when it like, you know, I can really dig deep on some film stuff, some TV stuff, some music stuff. I also get really into things for a season. So it depends on the season. But actually the. The podcast that I've been doing has actually been a great sort of outlet of. It's inspired by. By Jacques Elul and the Personalists. But it also is just kind of a place for me to talk about things that I'm interested in and talk to people that are interesting. Oh, you know, I love talking about, you know, whiskey and distilling. I'm not a distiller, but I lived in Scotland for four years and got spoiled for the best whiskey in the world. Tattoos. Like talking about tattoos.

Oh, you got some ink?

I do, yeah, I do. I got my long sleeve on here, but I'm working towards a full sleeve. Slowly but surely. Yeah. So yeah, that's Josh.

Take your shirt off, Josh.

I'm not doing that. Whenever I start, my thought is whenever I start getting paid more. I'm building up. So I have a cherry blossom tattoo that partially is covering up some scars I got from an accident a while back. And I want to build it out into specifically, like, anime and kingdom hearts.

Oh.

So, you know, because it's cherry blossom, so it's an easy tie in for one piece, and then, you know. Yeah, I'll make it work. I'll find a way to include Kinohart somehow.

Yeah, I mean, I really like the. The Japanese style. The. The guy that I. I go to, he does American traditional. Actually, we did a podcast on it. But he also does a little bit of Japanese blackout stuff, and he integrates that a little bit into the traditional, which is. Which is sweet.

Yeah, yeah.

If that is pretty sick.

I do have a question for you before we. Before we start to wrap up. If you could only choose one artist to be on personalist manifestos, who would you choose? Oh,

you know, who I'd really love to interview because he's so darn good at interviewing Kendrick. Marc Maron.

T.J. blackwell.

Oh, T.J. blackwell. Yeah. T.J. blackwell. Yeah. I don't know if either. Have either of you listened to the WTF podcast?

No, I'm not a big podcast guy.

I think so. I am. There's just too many out there, though.

Yeah. So, yeah, one of my really good friends from high school, Sam Mullins, who's also podcaster, he does, like, really cool true crime stuff. He actually was on this American Life, and he's. Yeah, does a really good job. But he. Yeah, whenever. Whenever Sam tells me to listen to something like music or a podcast podcast or watch something, I'm like, I got to. Because Sam's got really good taste. So he got me into the WTF podcast quite some time ago. And Marc Maron is a stand up comedian. He does acting too, but he started podcasting years ago, and he is one of the best interviewers I've ever heard. I've learned so much about how to interview people just from his shows. He stopped last year, but there's just such a backlog of amazing interviews with artists, politicians, musicians, actors, all that sort of stuff. And he gets them to talk about stuff that they wouldn't normally talk about, like personal stuff, biographical stuff. And that's really shaped, like, how I approach interviewing. So I just love to get him on the mic and see if I could. Could do a good job of interviewing him.

Yeah, yeah, I get that.

Like Sean.

You know, actually, it would be shocking to people who I learned this podcast from. So much so that I don't think I should say. But the podcast is called behind the Bastards, and that's a great podcast. If you're just look for podcasts to listen to this, especially for our deconstructionist friends. They have a lot of times where they'll have, like, people who are, you know, part of different church scandals and going through it. And they did one specifically on the Southern Baptist Church after the stuff came out a couple years ago, and that's the first one I listened to. I was like, it's incredible. Right now they're going through the. Through the history of Epstein, like, him as a person.

Oh, wow.

What makes it really interesting is they. They don't just be like, oh, look at all these terrible things he did and how he got there. It's like, actually, look at all these great things he did now. He actually was a good person in this scenario. And you're like, oh, that makes me really uncomfortable.

Yeah. Jeff Epstein, financier.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, that stuff is being made uncomfortable sometimes.

I think it's good. I was just talking about this actually in a meeting recently, how there's a good type of discomfort and a bad type of discomfort. And I feel like a lot of North Americans and North American evangelicals are uncomfortable about being uncomfortable. And here's the thing. You can't learn or grow if you're comfortable all the time. There's a bad type of discomfort where you're like, this is a red flag, and I need to get out of this situation. But there's another type of discomfort that's actually productive. And I actually think you can't be a disciple if you're comfortable all the time.

Yeah. I love learning terrible things about the people I look up to, like C.S. lewis, Martin Luther. And I love learning really nice and pleasant things about people that I think are despicable because it reminds me we're all actually human.

Yep. Empathy, which is in short supply these days.

Let's go. So toxic. We're trying to get rid of.

Yeah. It's like in middle school when you're. When your friend would be like, you know, Hitler loved animals.

Cool. I was the one for those. Like, whoa. Really? I love that. That's some good information. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I'm weird. I love. I love learning stuff like that. Anyway, all that said, one thing we do like to do before we start wrapping up is to ask our guests if they could just provide a single tangible action to help better engender church unity, something practical people can stop to do right now. What's something you think our listeners could do that would help better engender unity in the church today?

Mike, that's an excellent question. And I'm going to quote someone that I really look up to. He was the, up until recently, the director of the region in, in our fellowship. His name's David. Shout out to David Harida if you're, if you're ever listening. But he said often, you know, pick the hill that you're going to die on because it'll only happen once. You only die once. And I think about that a lot because I am a very passionate, intense person and sometimes I need to remind myself that not everything is a fight. But I would say, like, you know, ask yourself, like, what is, what is my hill? Or what is my red line? Like, what, what will cause me to leave? Or what will cause me to split? Or what will cause me to ask people to leave? I thought a lot about that myself. And you know, there's like core doctrinal things that are like non negotiable. But another one for me, and I wish I would see this more very practically, is when people, vulnerable people are getting hurt. I wish that would be more people's hill. And if we could just make that our hill. Because I'm pretty sure Jesus is clear on this. And like Beatitude, Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 25, and so many Old Testament texts too. Like, how we view and treat people is connected to our view and like treatment of God in our midst. And so like, if we ask ourselves what is our hill, like making that kind of the hill that, that we, we are willing to die on, I think, I think we would see more

unity along the lines there. Because when we ask about church unity, I love those kind of answers because it's not just unity. Church unity is important to me. And I think that starts with defining church. And it's something where a lot of people get upset at me because I like, thought you do a unity podcast. I'm doing a church unity podcast because I'm will say, like, if you are not supporting the marginalized, if you are supporting people like the President of the United States who is talking and saying the kinds of things he is about immigrants, about transgender people, etc. In our country, that I'm like, that's not Christian anymore. We're not talking about Christian unity. We're talking, we need to take a step back and go, what is Christian? And then we'll go back to the Christian unity thing.

But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we have to take seriously that Jesus. This is like, if you're asking who I am, where I am today, just look for the people who are pushed to the side and downtrodden. And he says, I'm not, like, just hanging out with him. I am them. And I will say that over and over and over. And one of the things that I've realized in terms of unity is that a lot of us have been shaped in such a way that it's like, unity at all costs. And then I realized I'm like, enablement is not unity, right? Enabling misuse of power, enabling ongoing abuse, enabling violence, enabling damage. That's not unity per se. It's the illusion of unity, but it's actually enablement. And so getting clear on what we mean at unity and unity at what costs, right? And this is like, what I marvel about Jesus is like, he knew what to walk. He knew when not. Not to say anything. He knew when to rebuke. He knew when to cast out. He knew that, like, in any given moment. And I'm still trying to figure out, like, how to do that. But. But. But, like, don't enable stuff we shouldn't enable. And be willing to lose everything you have, right? Like, lose your life over it, lose your job over. Lose your money over it for standing up for that one. One person who's being bullied, right? Like that I. That is worth, you know, pushing against this false unity for. And I think that leads to a deeper, more lasting unity that I. That I hope to see and I. And have to believe it's worth working for.

Yeah, we like to.

Yeah, I feel like hearing that.

So before we wrap up, we like to do what we call our God moment, and we just ask everyone to share where they've seen God in their lives recently. Whether it be a blessing or a moment of worship or a challenge or whatever it is. Always make Josh go first to give the rest of us time to think. You'll go last because you are our honored and delightful guest. So, Josh, do you have a God moment for us?

Yeah, I've been sick today. Yeah, that's my God moment. No, I've been really sick all day. And, you know, I feel like I want to sound extra conservative here, I guess, but it's fine, right? Extra evangelical. I don't know what you call it, but I'm like, I feel like God gave me the strength to be able to record two podcasts today because I was not feeling up to it earlier. In this day, managed to pull it through and had a really fun good time. So that's what I'm going good with.

Yeah, that's great. I like most of mine because I am Pentecostal. It's about my family. So the other day I was just really craving the Palmetto. My little small town, it's just like an old school, just nice little restaurant you go eat at. Serves chili cheeseburgers and fries and flounder and that kind of thing.

Where have I never been?

I texted my dad. I don't think you'd like it. It's not very good. Notably, it used to be a lot better. So I text my dad. I'm like, hey, do you want to go to the Palmetto for dinner? Whatever. This was when I was sick, which never happens. I never get sick. And, you know, he takes his time to answer. He takes an hour or two and he's like, yeah. And then another couple hours pass and he's like, how about Pizza Inn? Like, oh, okay, sure, we can go to Pizza Inn instead. So we're at Pizza Inn and talking about it, and he assumed that the only reason that I would have said, let's go eat at the Palmetto is because I knew he liked it. So he decided that instead of doing that, he was gonna suggest that we go to Pete's Inn because I like it. Which, for the record, I think he likes both of them more than me. Just saying. But that's really an example of love that I like to try and live my life by, where he just is assuming that this kid does not like the Palmetto and I'm not gonna make him eat there. So I did have to try again to go to the Palmetto, and we did last night.

What'd you get?

Chili cheeseburger.

Oh, great choice.

So good.

See, now I still feel like I need to try it at some point.

Yeah, not right now. I still don't think you'd like it.

I just feel like I have to try it.

You should try it one day. Yeah, but, Michael, do you have a God moment for us?

Yeah. I mean, yesterday was an interesting day because Mondays, like, it's my get to work and catch up on emails, like, housekeeping day. And so that can, like, hit the ground running on Tuesday. But my eldest got an earache, ear infection, and so he had to stay home from school. And my schedule is a lot more flexible than my wife's who works full time. And I'm a very. I'm a creature of habit, very task oriented. So Initially I was like, oh, man.

Like.

Like, I'm just gonna go in the office, get all this work done. Like, gotta stay home, you know, go to the doctor, whatever. But it, like, as the day progressed, it. The sun was out, and after we got like, the antibiotics for my son, got him some Advil, he came downstairs. Cause he fell asleep and he came downstairs like, doctor said it's good to get. Get outside and, you know, get in the sunlight. So he's like, I'm gonna go sit on the patio and read my history book. So I went out there with him and we just hung out and he had such a positive attitude, even though he was in a lot of pain. And then later in the day. My younger. My younger son is five. He turns six this month. It was his last soccer practice of the season. And the coach has an idea that, like, the kids would play the parents. So I went soccer practice and it was like me and a few other parents playing a bunch of five and six year olds. And we played all these games. Like, we did scrimmage, we did shootouts, and played all these fun. What time is it, Mr. Wolf? And, you know, those two things combined, I'm like, those were some God moments. And, you know, it's kind of like, get over yourself, Michael. Why were you grouchy in the morning? This is like, this is such a gift, goofball. Get your priorities straight. And so that was my like, Monday God moment, probably, or moments, I should say.

Yeah, I love.

Did the parents win, by the way?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was really funny. I was. I mean, you know, there were times where I didn't want to be that guy who's like, hot dogging it out on the field, you know, feeling good about himself. Destroying five year olds at soccer. Yeah, I mean, I did. Yeah. Yeah, it's like that. You ever watch Billy Madison when he plays dodgeball against the kindergartners? Apparently, like, Adam Sandler actually went full on for those scenes where he's just throwing dodgeball and not the soft dodgeballs, like the actual rubber ones.

Yeah.

And he was like, I did not do that.

He was like, then, by the way.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. Not like he is now. But there was one of my friends, she. She's awesome. I'm not gonna name names, but, you know, she played like competitive volleyball and like, really like good athletes. She doesn't anymore, but her competitive spirit came out where like one point she's like, we cannot lose this. Like, we cannot lose this. And I'm like, yeah, Okay, I feel it. There's a couple where like I intentionally let the ball in or you know, flubbed the ball on purpose just, just for some confidence building. But I didn't go so easy. Like there's no participation medals here. Yeah, you got to work for your wins.

I can't do it to kids. I gotta. I like to teach kids that they're children.

You play for keeps.

Yeah, absolutely.

You race for pink slips.

Yeah. I don't feel bad about it either.

Take no prisoners.

My, my dad would back in like Madden Football was the big one because my grandpa played. Even when I was like real little, if I played, he never held bars. Like it was like 700 every time. And I just remember there was one, one year in middle school I played him and he beat me a hundred and I didn't score once.

Dude, I like playing video games non

stop until the next time we played I beat him by like 50 points. And I was like, yeah, it's just self satisfying.

That's character building. And here's the thing. I am totally different when it comes to comes to video games. Like Mario Kart in my home on the switch. I'm a freaking honey badger. I don't give it like I am.

Yeah, it's the kid's fault for being that young.

That depends.

All I'll say though is that as, as hard as I go on Mario Kart, my nine year old beats me like nine out of ten times. He's that good.

See, that wouldn't happen.

He is that good. He's like Ricky Bob.

Never let him play dj.

Yeah, I, the best I can hope for at this point is to be the Cal McNaughton Jr. To his Ricky Bobby.

Yeah, yeah. There are, there are a lot of things like killer bunnies. TJ things is the best. And I, I think I'm, I'm probably still just as good as tj. I'm like, I, I'll fight him on that Mario Kart. I won't, I won't even try. Like I'll play, but I'm not going to be trying to win. I know that's not happening. He is ungodly good at that.

Who's your go to characters?

Well, I do. I was gonna say I don't have one, but that's a lie. It's Waluigi in the biddy buggy with the azure roller wheels and then any glider doesn't really matter.

But just it depends what year I like when Link's available. Just because I like to like there's like a certain layout I like to pick. I just think it looks good. I've given up winning.

You're all about the aesthetics.

It looks. Yeah, it looks good together, you know,

I like the streetle a lot. Aesthetically. I think it's cute. The car looks like a bug.

That is. Yeah, that's.

For the longest time, my 9 year old was Ludwig in the clown car.

That's a really combo.

Oh, he would rip on that. But I'm. I'm usually so for the longest time, I was iggy. Either the sport bike or just the classic car with regular wheels. I'm just straightforward. I'm a classicist, you know. Cause I grew up playing Super Nintendo. But I've got into shy guy now. Shy guy's great because he's got speed and he's got handling. And if you make him all black, he looks like a ninja.

He does is cool.

I. I will say, if TJ's not playing, I'm King Boo. I'm using the Wario bike and I'm just doing whatever wheels and stuff that makes my overall stats as close to even with one another as possible. Then I'm trying to win. So it doesn't matter.

Yeah.

Anyway, we're not gonna get super into The Mario Kart 8 Deluxe meta right now because I could talk.

Yeah, that's for a Snake Ecology episode. We're gonna start here in about five.

Oh, man.

Talk about it for a while.

I mean, can we just do a whole one on like Final Fantasy 3? In my opinion, the best RPG ever made, which was Final Fantasy 13 in Japan.

But be looking for Mike Morrell on systematic ecology soon. 4.

Yeah, Final Fantasy 4 is the best Final Fantasy. So please, if you like this episode, please consider sharing with a friend. Share with your enemies. Share with a cousin. One cousin at a time.

Especially your cousins.

Yeah.

I get a pass.

Yeah. Go to the website. Purchase one of our T shirts to promote the show. Helps us raise money for podcasting needs. Lets others know about the importance of our mission to educate and unite the modern church. Mine is the one with the TJ quote on the back. It's blank.

They're all comfy, though. They are. All of the shirts are comfy. So. Yeah. And again, check out some of the other shows on Amazon Podcast Network. We are a proud member of the network. I mentioned Theology on the rocks. Let's. Let's shout out what Nothing Movie with Christian Ashley and Peyton Pixel. I think I mentioned that ones too. And that. That's a good show. Check it out.

Yeah. But we hope you did enjoy it. Coming up, we're going to be having another round table discussion on church engagement, focusing on topics like social justice and Christian nationalism with Aaron Simmons, Ben Chica, Jill Elizabeth and others. Next, we're going to be having on Olivia Hasty to discuss her work with ministry, lar, which ministers to people who are neurod divergent in academia as. But after that, we're going to be having Dr. James McGrath back on our show to discuss his newest book, beyond Deconstruction, Building a More Expansive Faith. And finally, the end of season one, Francis Chan's going to be on the show.

He doesn't know about that, though.

No, he does not.

Someone does have to tell him. But he'll find out one day.

One day.