Hi everyone, it's Dennis again with Connect & Convert, insider strategies

for small business sales success.

Today's topic, what are you thinking?

That's a broad topic.

I think you'll find this interesting.

I think it's going to be even more interesting because today

I am joined by Leah Bumfrey.

Hi, Leah.

Leah is, she's a colleague.

She's a fellow Wizard of Edds partner.

She has a brilliant sales mind.

And she is an inspiring writer, lots of talent.

She's now my partner on this podcast.

A lot of things to admire about Leah, but what I admire most is her perspective.

She share a lot about how we think about sales and how we teach sales and

how we practice sales, but she offers a different perspective, which I love.

Welcome.

That is, it's great.

I love working with you.

You know what?

We do have a different perspective on a lot of things.

But we have a love of radio, a love of helping small business, and also

a really passionate view on training.

That's something I've always loved being involved in, and in my, my life

up here in Canada, with my now three big boys and husband and working radio

primarily, it is a part of my life that I think is the most important.

How you can help people how you can make a difference because you're

always learning the same time.

So true.

Well, I'm glad you're here.

Uh, and I am going to have a lot of fun with you on this topic because

you know a lot about this topic.

What are you thinking?

Well, deal is that us human beings have the unique ability to think

about our own in the minds of others.

We make inferences.

Don't we?

About what other people are thinking, what their mental states are, what they intend,

how they think, what they feel, what they believe, and hope of predicting behavior.

I do that with my husband all the time, and it drives him nuts

because it doesn't matter what he says.

I'm pretty sure I know what he actually means.

And, how often are you right?

Very rarely.

Very rarely.

It doesn't stop me, though.

As you say, that's just what happens.

Yeah, well, you know, husband and wife and people that are together.

We, the science is very clear on this.

We have a bit more and predict what our partners think, but it's

not as much as you would think.

Okay.

They actually did a study of, uh, married couples who married

at least 10 years and they asked them questions about each other.

They had to fill out an assessment and I think there was like 20 questions

on it or something like that.

And then they took the assessment and compared it to

what the other partner said.

And spouses were about 50 percent correct.

Non spouses were less than 30 percent correct.

People that were strangers.

Or not strangers, but you weren't in a relationship.

So there, yeah, there are some, some things happen.

We have a close relationship with somebody, but we still

miss it half the time.

Okay.

And I'll try to guess what somebody's thinking, what

they're, how they're feeling.

Why is this important?

Well, it's a social skill.

We start developing this social skill in childhood.

I already see it in my four year old granddaughter.

I already see her trying to assess what adults are thinking,

how they're going to respond.

I mean, it starts early and you know something, it's true.

We are all, we all are.

Some of us are better than others, but most of us suck.

We just don't do it well.

Let me share some research.

You know, I try to make everything science based.

It's not Dennis or Leah talking.

It's science talking.

So, University of Chicago, Professor Dr.

Nicholas Epley, he did research on this topic.

Here's what he found.

The problem is that the confidence we have in accurate mind reading far

outstrips our actual ability Even with close relatives, yes, our mind

reading abilities are subpar at best.

In other words, as I said, suck.

So how does this apply to sales?

Leah, I turn to you for that.

I think you can probably help with that.

Well, as you said, Dennis, we pride ourselves on the ability to

do this, to be able to read minds.

And yet.

Evidence shows that we're not as good at it as we think we are, but

we're in a sales position where we are trying to honestly control.

A topic control a presentation, we have a path that we're trying to take.

We need to be able to anticipate where's the client coming from now.

A lot of times it's, it's a legit anticipation based on

previous conversations based on our knowledge of the industry.

Based on a whole bunch of things, but Matt, if I could just know exactly

what's going on in that decision, if I can just pretend that I know I can

keep going and I can pull him with me, it's going to be a success and they're

going to be a success and fantastic.

What a great story.

Wow, you've got you sold me.

I can remember my career.

Selling and sales management.

Um, you know, you hear the same stuff over and over again.

I know what they're thinking.

I know what that means.

And how many times that I have to get slapped in the face

figuratively, of course, to know, I don't know what they mean.

I, you have to.

There's a technique and we're going to talk about that.

The all too common belief is that we know what they're thinking.

And that's a big, big problem for most salespeople.

We tend to react to our own thoughts, right?

We think our thoughts are very typical.

You, some of you may remember our episode on false consensus bias.

False consensus bias, we think we are very typical and that others think and

believe and act just the way we do.

Wrong.

We are often certain we know someone, know what someone is thinking, but

our knowing is just speculation.

It's, it's our interpretation.

It's often misguided, skewed, and wrong.

Professor Daniel Kahneman, one of my favorite Professors and authors.

He's written a ton of stuff.

If you if you ever want to get some inspiration about how

the brain works, go to Daniel.

Here's what he said.

We are generally overconfident in our opinion that our

impressions and judgments, we exaggerate how noble the world is,

you know, Dennis talking about how the world is.

That makes me think of our sponsor is your academy dot org.

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Da Vinci and the Forty Answers.

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You have got to go.

If you want your mind bent in a good way, go to Da Vinci and the 40 answers.

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Please check it out.

It is well worth it.

So back to our, our topic today, right?

Uh, the topic is what are you thinking?

Let's talk about, uh, how does this impact sales?

Well, Leah, having been a practitioner in sales for many years, as I have,

I remember one of the very basic teachings that I was ever taught.

You have to walk a step in your customer's shoes.

You know, you gotta understand their perspective.

What's going on in their mind?

Well, not so fast, says the scientist.

Science says a little different.

Epley, Staple, and Eyal studied this.

I won't bore you with all the citations.

You can check it out if you like.

But their experiments found, get this, no evidence that considering another

person's perspective increased their ability to read someone else's mind.

That was shocking.

Sorry.

When you think of that though, like, okay, you're, you're, you're trying

to put yourself in their shoes.

There's a lot of hubris involved in thinking that I can know exactly

what it feels like, Dennis, to be in Florida living in a condo.

Having a four year old grandson.

That's, I can't know that.

Any more than you can know how it is to be a four month old honky

mom living in Canada that's got to shovel snow in a couple weeks.

Like, you can't know that.

You cannot.

That hubris takes over and that's a lot of ego and that becomes

the worst of the worst in sales when you think you know better,

well, you, you said it and that's another one of the, the cognitive

biases that, that mess us up in sales.

So that's why we want to talk about this today.

What we're trying to do is decode perhaps the most complicated and

adaptive system in the whole universe.

The human brain.

with billions of synapses.

However, what did Eppley Eyal find?

They did find a strategy that would help.

Ask.

Inquire.

Don't guess.

You're probably going to be wrong.

If you're wondering what's on someone's mind, stop.

Stop guessing.

Pause.

And correctly and actively listen.

Okay, and I've got to emphasize that, Dennis, because that is the most

important part of it, actually hearing what they say, because you can ask

them, but if you've already decided what they're going to say and you're

on to, you've already jumped over that, that whole topic, because you

know, why did you ask the question?

No, no, no, listen, people know when they are being heard.

They do, and the highest compliment I think you can pay to a person

is Listening and actually hearing and confirming that you heard what they said.

We're going to do an episode on listening, because to me, that is a

skill that is so often misunderstood.

Uh, not yet.

And I think we will do one later, but let's stay with this topic today.

Why do salespeople talk too much and ask them listen to little?

Well, there are some reasons for that.

If you've heard some of our previous episodes, we discussed

the self disclosure loop.

We actually get a dopamine hit when we're talking like I am right now.

I'm getting a dopamine hit, but nothing when we're listening.

Ooh, many salespeople that I have found.

They dunno any good questions.

They know some pretty poor questions and they're afraid to ask because they're

concerned, fearful about the answer.

They're not sure if they can deal with the answer.

Have you found that to be true?

Uh, Leah,

absolutely.

They, they are afraid that it's gonna, again, control of

the sales presentation call.

So we don't wanna go, we don't wanna there.

So you provide information and.

Just keep going, keep going, as opposed to genuinely being interested

in what the person is saying.

Well, generally, we're very well schooled in the features

and benefits of our product.

And so, the go to is when we feel trapped or stuck or afraid or fearful, we go

to what we know, which is pitching.

We're excellent at pitching and therefore the questions get thrown out.

Unless you have practiced, rehearsed and planned a

framework to ask those questions.

You can teach anyone a product.

I don't care what it is that you need someone to sell.

You got to find the right person, not someone who is so well

versed in what it is that you're selling, but the right person.

What is that right person?

It's the person who.

Is genuinely trusted who can engage you in the conversation who we had a

Christmas party like this because you don't want to end up talking to them.

You want the person that people curious about, and they're not actually curious

about the person they're curious about the conversation because that person is

really good is getting the conversation going about everyone who's in the group.

Great point.

It's it's an art, isn't it?

It's an art.

It's a lost art.

I don't know.

I'm not sure if it was ever found, but it is an art and, uh, we'll talk about that.

I'm inspired now to do another episode on, uh, most salespeople are trained,

uh, to do something called the three P's.

Okay.

What are the three P's?

Pump, pounce, and present.

I need to get all my points in.

Okay.

I ask a loaded question.

Hey, have you, would you be interested in blah, blah, blah.

They're asking that question as a pretext to make a sales pitch.

They're not asking for information.

They want to deliver a pitch.

So they pump, ask the question, they pounce.

Ah.

They're interested.

Boom.

Pounce.

And of course, pitch.

I got to get all my points in.

Uh, let me tell you what, uh, let's see.

What does science say about the success rate of the three P's?

Pounce and present.

What do you think?

What do you think science tells us about that?

I would say that it's not a high success rate.

Quite low.

Not even worth discussing.

It doesn't work.

It is.

It's actually, if you've built a good foundation of opening questions and

doing your report building and all that, and all of a sudden do tons of work.

Pound pitch.

You just destroyed the foundation that you said you go back to zero.

In fact, you go below zero because now you're pitching again and

they don't want to hear your pitch

people know you're trying to sell them, but you don't really

care that you're on to the next that you haven't listened to them.

And that's why, as opposed to having all that features and benefits information

in your head and know about your product.

But really, what you need is a couple of questions.

A couple of questions that you really care about and that are going to make

the person you're asking stop and think I have a couple of those and get to know

them, get to know the process of through this process of what it is that you have

that can make a difference for them.

Yeah, and you make a good point.

I don't believe in scripts and read script, but I do believe in frameworks.

Okay.

And you need to have a framework.

So you have to have a firm that in your brain in your sales brain about how you're

going to proceed with your questions.

You do have to have a sequence.

That's another topic.

How do we think on questions?

Yes, we'll do another one on that.

Okay.

Yeah, we do.

Again, it's easier for sometimes for a salesperson just to make assumptions.

It's hard to do a proper discovery.

You have to actually be involved.

You have to think.

And yet the most accurate insight is going to be the thoughts, words

and beliefs of your customer.

And there's only one way to find out.

Ask.

If you've built a deep level of trust through good rapport

and connection skills, they will likely give you an answer.

Okay.

Let's, let's, let's close out today with our ABCs.

I don't know in Canada.

Do they, how do they teach?

I know you, you say Z differently than we said or something.

Yeah, both hands intended, but we say it the right way.

Well, we could have another episode on that too.

And maybe we will, who knows, but we're going to talk today about

our ADP without the Z, only the Z.

Okay.

Okay, I'm okay with that.

Assumptions, biases, and certainty.

Your ABCs, assumptions, biases, and certainty.

Those are the building blocks of what we call habitual thought.

We default to system one in the brain, the automatic side of the brain, the ABCs.

We have assumptions.

We have biases.

We have certainty.

It helps us kind of make sense of the world.

I mean, we can't.

Think through everything, every situation we come into.

That's where the system one brain makes things move fast.

Those are the things that get in the way of deep curiosity.

I'll share a quick story.

I was interviewed once by someone writing a book on sales, and they asked me the

inevitable question they would ask.

What is the key trait of a great salesperson?

And I think I.

Messed up their brain.

I answered it's curiosity.

And they were stunned because that's not what they hear.

Usually they were stunned.

What did, what is your reaction to that?

It reminds me of Dale Carnegie.

And I think that, uh, his writings, everybody should read those books.

I always encourage people who do sales in any industry, because.

He talks about the genuine interest that you have in people in things

going on and that making that helping you to stand out and that

it shouldn't it's like good manners.

It should just be nobody notice it, but we notice it because it is so rare.

And I think curiosity is scary for people because it shows a

lack of knowledge there's stuff.

I don't know.

I don't know.

You might know it and I'm willing to ask you about it.

Well, that's that was my thinking, and I'd like to even put more behind that.

Okay, uh, Assumptions are beliefs without proof.

Assumptions shut down our curiosity.

Notice assumptions about others.

You might, uh, well, this customer is just like every other customer.

I know what they're thinking.

I know their situation and you don't really care to dig deeper

into their personal situation.

The only way to test assumptions is by asking specific questions.

Hey, tell me more.

That's interesting what you said about XYZ.

Can you tell me more about that?

Okay.

What are biases?

Do you have any biases?

You probably don't have any.

Oh, well.

Don't all Americans have guns?

Well, that's not a bias.

That's probably a fact.

Yeah, I think you're pretty close there.

That's funny.

We all have biases.

And you know what?

We don't even recognize that we have them.

I'm a mom of three boys.

Kills me when I'm talking to people who don't have voice and certain

assumptions about them how easy it is to be boys How hard it is boys similar

to myself my friends with girls.

It's like oh, man They're messing it up because if only they knew this this

and this I don't have any girls We have these in brain beliefs because we want

to know or because we think you know,

guess what?

There are scientists tell us there are at least one hundred eighty

one eight zero cognitive biases.

Hundred eighty.

Okay.

Yeah, they actually make a track of these things.

They're in great.

As you said, they're automatic, they're very difficult to recognize

and they're difficult to challenge, but they cloud our judgment.

They affect how we perceive a sales situation because we come equipped

with those biases, whether we like it or not to that affect sales.

A lot of them do, but I'll mention to representativeness.

Heuristic.

We compare each situation to the stereotype that we already have.

So we have a stereotype of what a customer looks like, what a customer

supposed to do, and we carry that with us to every customer.

We meet bad bias.

Another one.

We've all heard of this one confirmation bias.

You know that one?

Well, yeah.

What do we do?

Well, we know something, know something that's to be true, so we

look for something that will confirm what we've already decided is true.

And that's really, really easy to do because it, it feels comfortable.

If I want to be right, I'm going to prove that I'm right.

And then when I have a story to tell my husband at the end of the day,

it's going to show that, oh, you know what, I thought this was the

case and that was exactly right.

Um, and boy, it costs people sales.

It costs business, businesses, customers.

It costs us friends, all of these things.

We make those assumptions that everybody under the age of 25 is

stuck on the phone all the time.

And so we forget that that's, that can happen, but that doesn't mean that

they are just playing video games.

It doesn't mean that they're not available for a conversation.

But man, as soon as I see that, yeah, I knew that was the case and away we go.

The worst part of it is.

That when evidence is presented that supports and oppose you, what do we do?

We ignore it.

The confirmation bias says we only look for evidence to

support what we already believe.

You can see how dangerous that would be in sales.

What if you believe that the price that your product is selling for is ridiculous?

It's too high.

How is that going to come out in sales?

How will that affect your belief?

I'm so.

Confirmation bias.

Very dangerous.

The third one is certainty.

Okay, we had assumptions.

We had biases.

Now we have certainty.

I'm right.

And therefore, I'm not interested in considering others opinions.

I often hear customers say this.

In fact, I was listening to a recording the other day of a, uh,

of a, uh, customer and a sales guy.

And the customer said, well, this is what I want and dismissed.

Basically, you can.

We're not interested.

Certainty.

How's that?

How do you see that operating?

Well, you know what?

I have two minds with that one, Dennis.

Because I need to believe something.

There is such a thing as objectively, this is my stand on something.

But you also have to measure that.

Okay, what is this?

Are we talking about a great moral truth here?

Or are we talking about the difference between All seasons and putting

winter tires on my car, right?

Like, I'm willing to talk about this because somebody has had this, you know,

I have a girlfriend and she puts winter tires on her car and she swears by it.

I won't do that because I'm not going to spend the extra money

and I think it's a bit of a waste.

But when I look at the information, there's a lot.

There to substantiate what she's saying.

So I can be strong in my belief system.

Man, if I'm not willing to listen to somebody else, if I'm willing to

go, maybe I'm correct about this, then if I rear end you at a red

at red light, who's fault is that?

A great point.

As always, it depends, doesn't it?

If this is a, I think you call that a moral truth or something.

Yeah, there are some things that are certain, but we're talking

about in the sales situation.

Okay.

We're talking about a sales situation.

If you as a salesperson believe that Customers are always going

to act in a particular way.

You don't bother to question them.

You don't bother to ask them.

You don't bother to inquire.

And therefore, you have hurt your ability to make a successful sale.

And

sometimes the issue comes even before you're able to engage with them,

Dennis, because you've predetermined by looking at them that that guy has

no money, that guy has no interest.

They're not going to make a decision.

Look at he's not, he's not, his shoes are not shiny enough.

He can't afford this vehicle.

And we make jokes about that.

And again, in pop culture, think back to, oh, what was that movie?

Pretty Woman, where she was ignored.

She was ignored at the start.

He didn't look right.

Now, there's an easy way that could be avoided.

Ask the question, as a salesperson.

Ask the question.

My dad has a great story.

He sold cars for a number of years.

And he worked up in, way up north.

And a gentleman walked in.

And he didn't look like a gentleman.

And he had a braid down to his bum.

He was dressed like he was ready to work.

And my dad was selling high end vehicles.

But you know what?

Nobody else talked to this guy.

Only my dad did.

Turns out this guy bought three vehicles from my dad.

He had the money.

He just didn't necessarily dress for it.

He just came off, came off of what the rig that he was working on.

So we can dismiss people even before we get to, to the opportunity of, of,

and often, and often do.

Yes.

Well, the, the, the lesson here is to, you know, to dig deep into your thinking.

You've got to detach from your ego.

These from your assumption, your biases and your certainty.

I'd also like to do.

I've been doing a lot of homework on a number of topics, but

one of them is deep curiosity.

I am fascinated by the concept of curiosity.

How does, how do we become curious?

Are we curious from birth?

There, there is some science that says we are and remain curious

for the rest of our lives.

But how do we help?

How do we make that useful for us at sales?

So I think another episode should be, how do you, uh, how do you make a better

sales career by using deep curiosity?

That'd be fun, wouldn't it?

I, I think we've got a lot of talking to do, Dennis.

Boy, we're going to be busy on this one.

I hope you guys stay tuned.

This is another episode of Connect & Convert, Insider Strategies for

Small Business Sales Success.

I'm Dennis.

She's Leah.

We'll see you next time.