Welcome back to another episode of the Genius Podcast.

My name is Karen Doyle, your host and founder of The Genius Project, which is an

initiative for Catholic women designed to support and resource you towards growth.

If you were interested in finding out about our initiatives and our

resources, our Catholic Women's Masterclass, Or our Catholic coaching

programs for women, please visit our website, www.geniusproject.co, or

come and follow us on Instagram genius underscore project underscore daily.

You can also watch the live recordings of these podcast episodes on the

Genius Project YouTube channel.

Ladies, we are opening the doors for a new cohort of the Catholic

Women's Masterclass, so if you are interested in joining us.

Please send me an email, karen genius project.co, or you can register online

at the Genius Project website on this week's episode of the Genius Podcast.

I'm interviewing the very beautiful and wonderful Rachel Bulman.

Rachel is a mother of six children.

She'll share a little bit about her.

Story In this episode, Rachel is the author of two books.

The first is With All Her Mind, and I really encourage you to get a copy of

this book If you are a Catholic woman who really wants to sew into your heart,

mind, and soul, and become the fullness of who God has created you to be.

This is 16 essays written by different Catholic women tackling

a different angle of what it means.

To be a Catholic woman in the world today.

The second book that she's written is Becoming Wife Saying

Yes to More Than Just The Dress.

And she's going to share a little bit about both of these books

in this week's conversation.

So ladies, sit back, relax, and enjoy this conversation with Rachel Bowman.

Well, Rachel, welcome to the Genius Podcast.

You're joining us all the way from the United States today,

and I believe you've got a bad thunderstorm happening right now.

We do.

That's the summertime in Florida.

That's the natural way of things around here.

Oh, well, I'm incredibly jealous because we woke up to an apparent temperature

this morning of minus 10 degrees Celsius.

Oh my goodness.

I would not survive.

So, no, I'm, I'm deep in the, um, in the sin of envy right now.

Wow, wow, wow.

It's just so cool.

I'll soak it in for you.

Oh yeah, please do.

Yes.

Uh, friends of ours just left for Fiji actually yesterday and, and she texted me.

A photograph this morning of sitting on the beach.

I thought That's very nice.

It's so nice.

So nice.

I'm jealous of her.

So, oh, I texted one back at the freezing cold frozen pool glass.

That's great.

But, but Rachel, it is so lovely to have you joining us.

I know I've been touching base with you.

I think it might be for quite a while, and, and because we both

have children, children get sick and life happens, so mm-hmm.

Such a gift to have you.

Joining us for this conversation today Much And I think you and I, yes.

Thank you so much.

Share such, um, a passion really for women and, and seeing Catholic women,

I guess living in the fullness of who God's created them to be and mm-hmm.

And this conversation today, we're going to dive into a couple of areas.

I think looking at the feminine genius and how we.

Have to discover our identity first, but then moving more specifically

into the vocation of marriage.

Mm-hmm.

And how as Catholic women, we can serve and show up and live that vocation.

So before we dive into those wonderful topics, I'm wondering if you could share

a little bit about your background, um, your children, and I guess.

Where, how you came to be, where you are today.

Sure.

So, oddly enough, my, my story about myself really does start very young.

So I was, I was actually born in the Philippines and when I was two weeks

old, I was adopted by missionaries from the Assemblies of God and

grew up in the, and the Assemblies of God, very devout Christians.

And when I was in college, I was kind of, I think going through

like a conversion, but also just being struck with how involved in

churches I had become at that point.

Um, I think I was like, church burnt out, you know?

And I remember still of course holding onto my core faith and who God is and how

much he loves me, but, Wasn't, I was kind of like, just kind of floated in the ether

of, of faith and then started dating the who would now is my husband Jason, and

I was leaving work one night and a young lady that I worked with, we'd always talk

about our dating lives and so I asked her, I said, I, I'm dating a new guy.

And she goes, yeah, me too.

She goes, is the guy that you're dating a Christian?

And I said, yes.

And I said, what about the guy that you're dating?

She goes, no, he's Catholic.

And I was like, wait.

I was like, are Catholics not Christians?

And she said, no, of course not.

So I was really, I had never heard that before.

Um, and just from knowing him and knowing his parents, like I

knew that they were Christians because of how well they loved me.

And so, I left work immediately, like beelined to his house, his parents' house,

and we just sat there kind of discussing this and just kind of came to the

conclusion that we both couldn't be right.

And I said, we just have to figure this out.

And we had only been dating for a couple of months really.

And so that led me to come into the Catholic church.

I did it secretly for about three months before I told him that I'd

entered into R C I A and came into the church in 2008 in Easter, and then we

were married that Christmas in 2008.

And so now we have six children.

We also have another child in heaven, and then he was just

ordained to the permanent diaconate.

So it's been a year now that he's been in the permanent diaconate, and

it's just been a wonderful adventure.

Wow, that's amazing.

So how old were you when you became a Catholic?

Yeah, so I was 26 years old when I came into the church.

Wow.

Wow.

Mm-hmm.

And so the three months where you didn't tell him you just

wanted to find your feet and.

Yeah, I mean, we had talked about it previously because I was curious and

all of my, at that point I remember thinking someone had kind of posited to

me, you know, R C I A doesn't necessarily mean you'd have to become Catholic.

You can just come and, and ask questions and just learn.

And so we had talked about his mom going with me, but the more that I prayed about

it, I really wanted to do it on my own.

Like I really wanted to make sure that I was doing it free from any other influence

other than just my desire to, yeah.

To find the truth.

And, and so I did it for three months.

I drove to a parish that was about an hour away from my house.

Um, once a week.

I remember calling the faith formation director and she just got a kick outta me.

She's like, Rachel, you're gonna come do this for a year?

And I was like, yes, I know it's fine.

And so, um, So I did that for a few months.

He was away.

He's a, he's a pa so he was in, um, PA medical school doing that, and we

weren't seeing each other a lot anyway.

And I remember calling him and being like, I can't do this anymore.

And he thought I was breaking up with him.

Oh.

And in reality, I was telling him I'm gonna become Catholic.

So, It was much better news than what he thought, so yes,

he would've been thrilled.

Right, right.

That's an incredible journey though, Rachel, just to go from Yes.

It's been wonderful that, that journey into the Catholic Church

and what a beautiful, beautiful, um, gift for your husband.

Amen.

Amen.

It's been so, and during that time, he was going through his own conversion

too, just kind of finding his, his faith again, and so it was just

a really beautiful journey that.

Neither one of us knew that we were on the same journey, going in the same direction.

So it's really, really beautiful now.

Yeah.

Fantastic.

And, and you've done a lot of work.

You've written two books and you've done a lot of work with Catholic women.

I know that you're on the board for the given institute.

Can you share a little bit about how you found yourself in that niche?

Well, you know, I am.

Just growing up, I remember being in ministry growing up just in the

Protestant church, and then when I came over to, to the Catholic church, when

I crossed the Tiber, one of my things at the very beginning was, oh man, I'm

just gonna throw off everything that reminded me of, of me as a Protestant.

And so it really included.

All of my gifts and talents that the Lord given me from writing to singing

to any kind of public speaking.

I was like, oh, I'm not doing that anymore.

Like that was when I was Protestant.

We're not doing that anymore.

And so when I came to the church, there was a long period

where I was very shy about it.

Didn't want anyone to know that I did anything like that, ever.

And and finally, you know, when we try to deny our calling or

deny our mission, it always finds a way to kind of reveal itself.

We can fight against it, kick against the God, but it always finds a way.

And so slowly but surely, you know, the onion layers are being peeled back.

And I remember just finally saying, okay, fine, I'll write again.

I'll do these things again.

So I just started doing it and it was like a, a flood gate just opened.

And then what was really beautiful was that I had kind of just told God,

wherever you are, that's where I wanna be.

And, and so for me, I have three, we have six children and three

of those children are girls.

And I remember the first time that we had a daughter, our third

child was a, was a little girl.

And I remember sitting there just staring at her and you know, with every kid

you're like, can stare at you for hours.

But I remember thinking like you're a.

Girl, like I had had these two little boys who were all just rough and

tumble all boy, but there was just something in about my daughter and, and

something about all of my daughters.

But I remember looking at Gemma and just being struck by her femininity,

even if she was just a baby, just being struck by the fact that she was the

crown of creation and, and from there.

The Lord just continues to open doors.

You know, I thought all of these things, this is probably what I'll be doing.

I'll be doing maybe youth and or young adults or something.

And the Lord is just like, no, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have you do this.

This is where I want you.

And so it's just been such a beautiful, beautiful mission to be

with other women that are trying to find out how much Christ loves them

and where he's calling them to be.

And so there's nothing else I'd rather be doing.

It's been great.

Yeah.

Beautiful.

Oh, such a gift.

Before we go in and look at those books, I'm interested, there's a, you've

appeared with your family, haven't you, on a TV show, is that correct?

Yes.

I saw that.

Is it Meet the Bull Men?

Meet the Bull Men's?

Yes.

There's, there's did what that was like.

Cause I cannot imagine having my family exposed to the world.

Oh my gosh.

Well, it was so happen.

Funny because.

Well, father Steve Grinnell, who is the, he's the c e o of World on Fire

Ministries, he had called us and he said, you know, we really gotta talk.

And, and the thing is, is that I was pregnant with the twins.

I had just announced that they, that they were coming.

And then, you know, it was probably two or three months after that announcement

and they were kind of doing some new things on their YouTube channel,

and he brought up this reality show.

And, and told us to take it to prayer.

And so I remember Jason and I just got, we got off the phone and we

were like, what does this entail?

Like if there's gonna be cameras following around hard, no.

Like, I don't wanna do that.

And so the way I know, I was like, I don't want people to see all of that.

That is way too much so, What we ended up doing was we have a sunroom

on the back of the house that we had put some camera equipment in.

And so it was kind of like just sitting down okay.

With my husband and I at the end of the week, and then all of the B-roll

or the scenes that, cuz the, the topic was usually something that we had

faced that week as a family and how God revealed himself during that week.

And so then the B-roll from other things that happened during that week

was, was things that we did ourselves.

Like either shot it on my phone or something that we, uh, had

to capture in some other way.

Then the producers did such a beautiful job just putting it all together and

every episode was a surprise to me too.

You know, even though we recorded it, they had to cut things down.

I mean, every episode's probably, I think the longest one might be 20 minutes.

Mm-hmm.

And so just the, the beauty of putting all these things together and it

coming out into these episodes that I remember crying, I was laughing.

I was like, am I crying at the.

My own what's happening, but my own story, you know?

Yeah.

What is so, but it's just, it's such a great thing and we, there's 12 episodes

out there and it's really just to show people that family life is beautiful.

It's joyful.

Like we have six kids and there's chaos, but there's also

peace and joy and so much love.

Way more than we ever thought we could ever have or handle.

Beautiful.

That's amazing.

Our hat's off to you.

Thank you.

So that's quite an achievement.

Um, Rachel, I'd love to talk to you for a moment just about your

book, um, that you wrote for women specifically, because mm-hmm.

As I was sharing with you, I saw it and I grabbed and I ordered it because the

floors written by Tracy Rowland, who was.

The Dean of the John Tu Institute where my husband and I studied, not

actually realizing that you were the editor of this book, and it was, and

I've had it for about, I don't know, since it was released, and it was

only about a month ago, I clicked.

I was like, oh, Rachel, you're the editor of this amazing book,

and it's a beautiful collection of essays by different Catholic women.

Just really inviting women into, I guess, a consideration and reflection on the

intellectual life and what this means.

I think there's sometimes.

There are some women who think, oh, that's academia, that's, you know, when

we hear intellectual life, some women can close down to that because they're

like, I'm not smart, I'm not an academic.

Can you share a little bit about this invitation that all women

have to the intellectual life and why it's so important for us?

Sure.

So I think one of the things that really came to mind as we were

thinking about, you know, what could a book for women look like today?

And right now you could go down and you could find a ton

of books for women, right?

You could find a ton of books about becoming mothers and some

on, you know, matrimony and, and.

Being daughters of God and they're, they're very kind of spiritually based,

but there wasn't a whole lot exploring the, the wholeness of the person.

And that includes the intellectual life.

And so we're talking about the heart.

I'm forgetting all about our mind, and I remember thinking.

This would be something that I would've really wanted to read.

I really wish that there was something like this in the world and, and

so thankfully, you know, we're on fire, said, that's, let's do it.

So I made this list of, of women that had spoken to me through their own ministries

and really prayed with, you know, what's a topic that I would want this person to

then tell me about the intellectual life.

And it was just, it's almost like.

We sat in a room together and wrote the book together because of the continuity

that seems to be between each essay, but it was just the Holy Spirit.

I mean, they're all sending in to me at various times.

No one's talked to each other and I'm reading it and just my jaw was on

the floor like, this is so, so good.

It's the Holy Spirit spirit and just something that I, yes,

holy Spirit was working and so.

I'm so excited to be able to have something that I, I can give

to my daughters and if, if God wills it for my granddaughters.

And just something to continue passing on to let women know that the fullness

of who you are lies in your feminine genius, which includes your heart, it

includes your mind, includes your soul.

And I mean, even scripture tells us, you know, to worship God with

all your mind, heart, and soul.

And so, We have to do that, and when we neglect it, we neglect the full

view of who God is calling us to be.

And so I am so pleased with it.

The more and more that, and I reread it, I've read through and read

these essays over and over again and just continue to be compelled to

shout it through the roof rooftops.

You know that you have the gift to think and to use it well.

Yes, absolutely.

And it's so important because out of our mind, uh, you know, it is our

thoughts that shape our feelings, which shape how we show up in the world.

And so we really need that deep formation.

And I, I think one thing we don't realize is we are constantly being

formed by everything around us, right?

Our minds are constantly being formed and manipulated by advertising social media,

what we watch on television, what we choose to read, the music we listen to.

You know what?

You and I both have children, so we're always on about being

good stewards over your mind.

But I think as we grow up, and especially if we've been walking the faith for a

long time, we can forget that we are still called to just steward our mind in

such a way that we would be encouraging our children to steward their minds.

And I, I think this is a really important challenge for women because

the great temptation is social media.

That's the most obvious one.

Mm-hmm.

And we have to realize that, that the amount of time we spend scrolling or

or comparing on social media, we could actually be spending, that could be

an investment in forming our mind.

And it's just right.

So important.

I know that when I got a revelation of.

John Two's feminine genius.

Um, we had six years of infertility and that's when I first came

across Nita and it just ignited something within my spirit.

Then we went and studied at the John Tu Institute, and once again, that's

what I really, I just dove into the feminine genius, but similar back then,

way back 2003, I came across a book called God's Call to Women, and it was.

Similar to what you've done.

It was a whole lot of essays by different women.

And I just about it because my, my spirit in my mind was so hungry

for the, the spiritual formation.

Yes.

But the intellectual formation and then how that actually impacted

my everyday life as a woman.

So, wow.

In the church we can have these concepts like high in the sky

concepts, but it's, there's a real art in drawing down those concepts.

Looking at how we can apply them in our practical everyday lives, and

I think that's where the formation of our minds is so important.

Do you, I guess, do you have advice for women who haven't been

investing, I guess, in their mind, in, in the intellectual life?

Sure.

How they can do that and why, why it's just so crucial in this world today?

You know, I think first and foremost that, um, What you said is so important

that you're always being formed, that we're always taking something in, whether

it's us looking out the window when we're driving down the road, or it's scrolling

social media while you're waiting in line, or it's the music, it's all these,

all these different avenues that we're being taught to think in that way.

And so learning how to think on your own is so, so important, and that's

something that has to come from within and something that really has to be honed.

It can't be brought to you from outside.

It's something that's within you.

And so I would tell every woman that the church.

Loves you and the church is for you, and the church has something for you.

You know, the world tries to tell us, you know, the church doesn't like women,

the church doesn't, doesn't want good things for you, and I'm telling you

the exact opposite, that the church has something good and beautiful for you.

The other thing that I would tell you is that the intellectual life is huge.

It's much broader than the academic classroom.

It's much broader than philosophy and theology.

Those are great foundations for it, and that would encourage everyone to make sure

that they start there if they could find something within those realms to begin.

But there's so much more.

And, and the person that gets exhausted trying to find, gosh, well, what does

the intellectual life have for me?

I would encourage you to persevere because you're going to find something

that speaks to your soul because of the depth and the breadth of what the

church is calling you to think about.

I mean, the church is calling us to think about how we treat one another, to how

do we, how do we practice human dignity?

The church is calling us into understand what our vocation is, how are we called

to then practice loving the world?

And so there, there's an exhaustive list.

You can never know.

The church, just like we can't know one another.

We can know of one another, but.

The depth of her is something that is inexhaustible.

And so we have to know that you just have to persevere.

I promise you that there's gonna be something that just ignites a flame.

And, and John Paul II's a great place to start.

You know, if you haven't picked up Mollier datum.

If you haven't picked up Redemptorist mater, if you like poetry, go and read.

The Jewelers Workshop.

Go and read all the things that this man has left for us.

And someone who speaks so, so beautifully and profoundly to

the, to the heart of the woman.

They're, you're gonna find something that really makes you open your

mind to everything that your heart has to offer to the world.

Yeah, it's so important, Rachel, isn't it?

And I think in our current cultural climate where there's so many debates

about what it means to be a human person, what it means to be a man, what

it means to be a woman specifically, uh, this becomes ever more pressing,

that we really need to understand that the Lord has given us our own

unique spiritual gifts as women.

And, and then how to cultivate those.

And, you know, scripture says, be renewed by the transformation of your mind.

Mm-hmm.

So it's really through.

The intellectual life and through renewing of our mind that we, I

guess, we can grow into the fullness of who God's created us to be.

So very important.

Yeah.

So Rachel.

Moving from there.

I, I think, you know, in our lives as women, before we step out

into our vocation, we need that revelation and that sense of who

we are as the beloved daughter.

Yes.

But then for some women, they're called to married life and that's

how they live their universal call.

To holiness out.

Mm-hmm.

And you've written another book, um, around marriage and just the

vocation of marriage, and this is where I'd love to spend a fair bit

of our time and our conversation today because I love the title.

And I'm just wondering if you can share what prompted you to write that

book and I guess a little bit of an overview about the key concepts in it.

Yeah.

So, um, there is actually a book that was written by Adrian von Spire,

um, a mystic Ger, I can't remember.

She's German.

I always get them confused.

The German and Austrian people are gonna be very upset with

me, that I get them confused.

But, but she was, she actually honestly might even be Swiss.

Anyway, Adrian Spire, that doesn't matter.

Amazing mystic, beautiful writer and, and has just given a, a, a lot to the church.

And so she wrote a book called Handmade Up the Lord.

And it's about the blessed mother.

And I remember just reading this book and thinking constantly about what

this looks like for my own life and, and who I've been called to be as a

daughter, as a wife, and as a mother.

And so that, that was one thing.

Then I later meet Edith Stein, who of course continues to introduce

an, another thought that John Paul II continued to introduce, which

was that holiness is something that is, that is a calling and a task.

That it's something that we, we are, and something that we are becoming.

And so either Stein talks about that, about being and then becoming.

And the fact that the human person at once, we are, we

are people, we are persons.

But the more that we become holy, the more that we align our lives with

the will of God, that we become more persons like you become more human,

the closer you, you get to Christ.

And so then scroll on down the road and we meet Joseph Tinger.

And so he introduced something called the, the, the fundamental

pattern of the human person.

And he said that every person is called to be a, a son or a daughter.

They're, they're a child.

You're called to be spouse and you're called to be parent.

He's like, doesn't matter what vocation you are, what, what, where

the Lord is calling you to be.

Everyone is gonna be with those three things.

You're gonna be child.

Spouse and parent, and you will always be those three, three things in that order.

And that when we get out of that order is when when things become

disordered and when it's not.

That there's, if you get out of the order, it can't be reclaimed and

healed, but that it makes things more difficult because they fall out of

line with the perfect design that God has and, and entrusted to the person.

And so I remember thinking, gosh, if I go out to, to the store and I

wanna pick up a book on becoming a daughter of God, they're everywhere.

And if I wanna pick up a book on, on becoming a mother, like.

Rearing children in this world.

There's a ton of books out there.

And so I'm in formation for the permanent diaconate with my

husband, and we're learning about matrimony and about his call, which

is a vocation within a vocation.

And I'm like, gosh, I really need to find a book on like Becoming a Wife.

And I really couldn't find a whole lot.

There were things that talked about marriage in general.

Yeah.

But there wasn't a whole lot that was geared towards the

wife or to ality, you know?

And I was just, Constantly praying about this and, and then this book came about,

so it's becoming a wife, because one of the first statements that I say in the

book is that you are a wife, but you're always becoming more and more wife.

Mm-hmm.

You are a spouse, but you're becoming more and more spouse.

And so it's learning to abide with and the more that you learn to abide with

the other and journey with them, then you're also learning to be gift and

the more that you're able to be gift.

And Gaudi Spez, it says that the, the human person, the man is the only creature

who is made, who by finding himself, has to make a sincere gift of self.

That's the only way that that happens, is that we make a sincere

gift of steal and then we dis.

We, they figure out who we are.

And so in this call to matrimony, the more and more that I'm able to

give of myself to my spouse, the more and more that I discover who I am.

So, And so there's, there's lots of different concepts.

My favorite in there are like, on evangelization, the role of

marriage and evangelization.

I talk about healing, the healing that's offered to one another

through our love for one another.

Um, I talk about the how the yes of the blessed mother is

encompassed in all of our yeses.

And, and when we say yes to one another, we're saying yes.

To all of it.

You're not just saying yes to, to the particular things that

you really wanted for this life.

Mm-hmm.

But you're saying yes to the things that you don't want to, and, and

so there's so many aspects of it, but it's a very short book.

I really hope that, that it'll, it'll help women to, to understand.

That being a wife is not a small task.

It's, it's a call to holiness and, and understanding what this vocation truly

means and the gravity that comes when we decide to say yes to the altar.

Oh, absolutely.

And I love the title.

It's Becoming Wife saying Yes to More Than the Dress.

Yes.

I love that.

Yes, that's great.

I like the tagline because yes, I think, you know, Jonathan and I have done

relationships, education with young people and marriage prep for the last 20 years.

And what I see and even our own experience, so much emphasis

is placed on the wedding day.

Yes.

And during that season of engagement, you, we sort of trained and

conditioned to think that is the culmination, the wedding day, right?

That that is actually the beginning and it is, you know, back pre covid when we

had conferences galore, I would speak at a men's conference and I would say

that's actually the day that you have to start learning to love your wife.

Learning how she, she operates, how she needs to be loved and cherished.

And I would say the same to women too, that that wedding day is

the start of your training into how to love that other person.

Mm-hmm.

It's so important.

I think we sometimes lose that in, I guess, that marriage preparation

season because it is busy, but there is a higher vision and, and a higher

calling that we are moving towards.

Right.

And it's really just not letting those things take away from, from what

you're really ca being called to do.

You're really being called to become saints.

Yes.

And so all of the distractions that that come up, the disagreements, you

know, the things that reveals about the wounds in your family, the things

that you reveal about the wounds that you carry in your own heart.

As you go forward, the the things that are gonna be revealed about your

spouses, you're planning, and even as you're starting to live together, right?

Like, that's the drawer I always use.

Don't use that drawer.

Oh, I face this way.

Why are you facing this way in the bed?

All of these things, all that you, oh, you think that, maam, these are not big deal.

But then as you start to learn to live with someone, to make space in

your own heart for them to dwell, there's a lot that you're gonna learn.

And, and they should all be a way for you to find your way to holiness.

Absolutely.

To become saints.

And so everything else is distractions.

They are.

And often say to women, the irritations are actually invitations.

So they are Amen.

Every irritation, every obstacle, every cross that we have to carry

in that situation is the invitation and that is the invitation to love.

As Christ loves and, and that is the fulfillment of who we are as people,

is to live into that self gift and, and laying our life down for one another.

I mean, we always make the distinction.

Obviously there's some marriages where there are very unhealthy

habits, but these, these principles are for the generally healthy.

Relationship.

I think it's important to always clarify that for people.

Yes.

And, and we forget, you know, whether you're in, on the road to, you're in

that preparation stage, there's lots in there that will, that will help

whether you are many, many years past, you know, and you, you feel like,

oh, we've been married for 25 years.

Why do I wanna read this work, work about becoming wife?

Well, you're still becoming a wife.

And so it's, it's so important for us to realize that you can never stop.

Dating your spouse.

My kids think it's hilarious.

And we're like, we're gonna on a date.

And our daughters the other day kept laughing like, mom,

y'all are married already.

Like, why are you, why do you keep going on dates?

And we're like, we're gonna keep going on dates forever, because I am still

learning how to love him well, and he's learning how to love me well.

And more than importantly is we're learning how to receive it well.

Yeah.

And learning how to be loved well.

And so there's just so much that that can continue to be said about this.

And I, I, I hope that.

Everyone, whether they're a woman or man, will pick it up and just learn

more about what it is to be a spouse.

Yeah.

Until what it is to become wife.

Absolutely, cuz we never quite arrive.

I think that's a very good point that you make.

I think so many people and women that I see, they enter into that

sort of stale season of marriage.

Mm-hmm.

And, and I truly believe that we talk about the qualities

that make a good relationship.

And everyone says communication, trust, honesty.

I would say the standout quality that leads to a successful

relationship is that of humility.

It's the receptivity.

Yes.

To always be growing, to always be learning that we've never arrived

where we've got it all worked out.

And I think, you know, our life is a constant evolution until

the day we die of, of who we are.

Mm-hmm.

And the challenges that come are shaping and molding us.

And so it, it's so important to just always have that heart of

receptivity to growth and to learning what the Lord wants to teach us.

I am, yes.

There's this, there's a great Latin phrase in statue VA that we're always on the way.

And so we never, everything, you're always on the way.

And we do incorrectly view all kinds of things in our lives.

Milestones is like, well, this is the the marker.

Like this is the, I finally arrived.

You know?

And it's when you start doing that, that you're no longer going anywhere.

Yes.

And so we really have to just continue think.

We're always on the way.

We're on our way to becoming saints.

Yeah.

It's so funny, I when you were talking before, I was thinking the other day,

my husband was just dancing with me in the kitchen and kissed me and my

youngest is like, oh, that's so gross.

And it's so funny cause that's great.

I, it's, you were talking about how we're constantly learning to love and, and

the mission of our marriage and there is that missionary aspect to marriage.

Isn it there that firstly in the domestic church, in the home,

that we are witnessing that love to our children and then beyond.

The walls of our home, that there is a missionary aspect to marriage.

And if we're truly living a Catholic marriage, then our marriage is a

sign and a symbol for God's love.

Mm-hmm.

And I think we so easily in this culture of just there's, it's just busy.

The entitlement, the right, the me culture, that's just, I'm not happy

anymore, therefore I shouldn't be here.

Or I don't feel like I'm in love anymore.

Right.

It's time to move on.

We've lost a sense, I think of duty.

Of, of service, of really right, what it means to sacrifice

and to truly love somebody.

Like when we talk about falling in love, it's all the beautiful elements, isn't it?

Like the nice feelings and mm-hmm.

The cherishing and the romance.

But true love is actually to will the good of the other and to really

will, their good means to hope that they will grow into the fullness

of who God's created them to be.

And I think the challenge.

For so many is that they get stuck in, I guess, a worldly

perspective on happiness, right.

And marriage.

Mm-hmm.

And love.

But as Catholics, if we truly are living in a Catholic marriage, then we, we have

to elevate our gaze to heaven constantly.

And that takes a lot of discipline and work in this world, I believe today.

It does.

And a lot of people wanna shy away from that.

You know, I think as, as Catholic Christians, we can say, what,

what's the image that, that epitomizes what love is for us?

And it should be Christ on the Christ on the cross.

And if Christ is on the cross and that's your image of love, then that's

what your marriage should be, that it should be suffering to death.

To, to pouring out completely for your spouse to be being able to be poured out

in ways that, that make you die to self.

Mm-hmm.

And that makes people uncomfortable.

Suffering is, is something that a lot of us shy away from, and so being

able to suffer well is a true gift of, of a good, authentic Catholic

marriage is to be able to suffer.

Well, you know, I, the other day we were, we were laughing because we had just had

a one of those days, you know, so, And, um, we were kind of counting down when

the twins were gonna go to bed cause they were just having this very moody day.

And my husband laughed.

He said, I bet people think that every day is like this for us.

And I laughed and I was like, you're probably right.

You know?

I feel like we don't have these days that often, and it's not that, you know, the

kids are not acting crazy sometimes and it's not like there aren't things breaking

around the house and people are sick.

Those things still happen.

It's just about, just about what your perspective is.

What, what's your hermeneutic?

Where, where are you viewing?

And so the moment that you take your eyes off the fact that you are on your way

somewhere and you go stagnant and want to gaze at the things, it's that 80 20 rule.

You know, you are gazing at the 20% that happens to be horrible right now.

Instead of seeing the 80% that have been given, you've been blessed with.

And even the trouble you've been blessed with too.

Yeah.

But it's when you, when you look and you're like, gosh, you know, like.

God telling Adam and Eve, you could have everything in the garden except

this one tree and we just get distracted by the tree, the one tree and Right

the one tree in all of the garden.

Literally all of creation that you could know and you're like,

eh, really want the one tree?

Yes.

And so we have to just change our perspective and that perspective

has to always be towards becoming.

Who we're called to be.

Yeah.

And that's becoming like Christ.

It's on our way to heaven.

It's, it's becoming saints and it makes the suffering love it redeems the

suffering and makes it into love when your hermeneutic is the right hermeneutic.

Yes.

And, and then that sort of linked back to this call to the intellectual life

because it's, what are we, mm-hmm.

Feeding our soul, feeding our minds with that forms, I guess

our worldview and our perspective.

I often say that we can sow a famine or a feast into our life.

Mm-hmm.

And when you hit difficult times, you'll know what you've been sowing

because you will either have something or you'll have nothing to draw upon.

Amen.

And the reality is, in marriage, I mean, Jesus says, when the day of trouble comes,

we will all hit those seasons in marriage.

Happens to everybody.

So it's how will you navigate those difficult seasons, um, that

will see you come through the other side with a deeper love.

Amen.

Amen.

Yeah, I think that, um, you know, through our, our marriage,

we've been married for 15 years.

And of course we've lost loved ones along the way.

We've had different injuries to the children, hospitalizations

and surgeries and, and different, different things that have come

down, down to very minuscule things.

Like we had a huge leak in our, in our irrigation system this week

that shut down water to the house, you know, for a couple of days.

And, I think there are a lot of situations that people would

look at and go, what is going on?

You know, you'd wanna put a full stop on your whole life because if they, if

all these things are going wrong, if I'm suffering all these things, then I must

be doing something horribly, but I love.

The saying that says, if you don't wake up in the morning and run

face burst into the enemy, then you're going in the same direction.

And so it's realizing that when trouble comes, like you said, you,

you better be sewing all of the feasts so that you have something stored up.

Your storehouse is better, be filled with gratitude.

They better be filled with joy, they better be filled with peace.

Fill them with all of the fruits of the Holy Spirit so that when

the time does come and you are starving, you can, you can really.

Sink your teeth into the things that you've saved in

your soul and in your mind.

I love that idea of the storehouse.

Sometimes we need a visual, don't we to?

Mm-hmm.

We do.

We do sort of place ourself within.

That's a beautiful one.

Rachel, can you tell me women who might be going through those sort of stale and

difficult seasons of marriage, what are some of the things that they could do?

Can you speak into that season for women?

Women who feel perhaps they have a husband who's not on the same page as them.

And perhaps they've hit a snag in the marriage where they would like

something to be different, but he's not willing to come to the table.

What would you say to women in that position and season?

Well, the first thing I would do is, is remind you to look back and remember

wh why you said yes in the first place.

You know, why did you say yes to this proposal of being his wife?

Why did you say yes to, to the dress, to everything?

Why did you say yes to this, this life with him?

And then, Remind yourself of the fact that women, especially are called to see

something beyond this present moment.

You know, the, the blessed mother.

Knew.

You know, in Jewish, in Jewish tradition, all of the women knew

that someone was gonna be called to be the mother of the Messiah.

And so it wasn't a surprise when Mary found out that she was gonna

be the mother of the Messiah because she knew it was someone.

It was this surprise that it was her her.

But because her far her heart had been formed in such a way

she was willing to say yes.

And she was willing to say yes to whatever that meant.

And so for us being called to be like our, our Lady, then when you

said yes, you knew that the future was, was filled with something beyond

anything that you could imagine.

And are there times of crucifixion, are there times where it's a silent

holy Saturday and there's a silent Good Friday and there's pain and suffering?

Yes.

But when you said yes in the beginning, you knew that there was

something beautiful on the other side.

You saw in this man something that he could become, something that

you know he is called to do because of the way that he has loved you.

And so it's reminding you of those things, remembering who you know he

is, and then bringing that to Christ and asking God to then show you how

can I help him remember who he is.

But first you have to remember who you are.

And so, That's one of the things that we do together as spouse, is that we're

able to, to continue to show one another with the reflection of, of Christ in us

because we are each made in his image.

And so when we forget who we are called to be, then it's very easy

to forget who they're called to be.

Mm-hmm.

And so when we get distracted by, by the things that they're not doing, by

the things that they're forgetting, by the lack of, of fervor or passion

that we feel that we, they have for us, it's then easy to forget who we are.

So remember why you started.

Remember who you are, and then garnish and ask for the graces

to then remind him of who he is.

But you can't do that if you've forgotten who you are along the way.

Absolutely, and I think that's where the invitation for so many women

is to really invest in, I guess, their own spiritual personal growth

and always being a student in life.

Yes, I, I think that is key because if you're constantly being a student, you

are constantly looking at how can I grow?

How can I show up as my best self in this relationship?

How can I serve my husband?

So important.

Amen.

Yes.

When you were talking then, I, I was just reminded by, there's a book by

um, John called The Bait of Satan.

Mm.

And he says that the bait of Satan is actually a fence.

And I think sometimes when we hit, you know, those seasons of marriage where

we're just in the grind with the children of the work and whatever it is, right?

It's so easy to be offended, but I, I always have this principle of

trying to assume the best instead of jumping to a conclusion about

what my husband's motives might be.

Sure.

Always assuming the best and seek clarification and, and not to take

the offense and the bait of Satan.

Mm-hmm.

Because that's what breeds, you know, the Bible says don't

let the root of bitterness.

Don't let bitterness take root in your heart because it's

like cancer that just spreads.

And, and so within marriage it's so easy for those little irritations to build up.

And then you've created this whole narrative about your spouse's motivations.

Oh my gosh.

And what they're doing.

When you could be completely off base, even if a spouse is, um,

criticizing, you often say, just pause.

Yes, the criticism might hurt.

Yes.

It might not be delivered in a very respectful way, but.

What is the complaint behind the criticism?

Because there's always an unmet need there, and I think as women, how we can

show up in our marriages just in a little bit of, we just need to shift that needle

a little bit to show how and how we are showing up because it can change the

trajectory of where our marriages go.

And so I think your book really gives women a lot of insights and just

food for thought around how they can shift that needle so that they're

showing up in a way that truly.

Is there to be a gift to their spouse and, and to grow in holiness and to be

sanctified through the beautiful vocation.

Yeah.

One of the things that, um, what you were just saying made me think

of is that, and I talk about it a little bit in the book, is that we.

Especially for, for women, and, and I'm sure that a lot of us

are like overthinkers, right?

We've imagined this whole, this whole reality really that exists in

our mind, that we think that this is what they mean, and this is,

this is what this meant, you know?

And so we have to just continue to, to fight for what is right in front of us.

Fight for the reality that you've actually been given instead of trying

to create something or fall for all of the things that the enemy has done

and that, that, that the fact that the enemy builds fences, I would let

you know that too, that 98% of the time we've helped him build the fence.

And so it's, it's being able to be aware that, that your spouse, when,

when times are tough and, and you know, like you said, he says a criticism.

Not only what's the complaint, but where, where is he at at this moment?

Is he exhausted?

Is is there, there is an unmet need sometimes that doesn't have

anything to do with the complaint.

And so just being able to, to be predisposed to want their good.

To be predisposed, to be, uh, trans transparent and transcending yourself

to always desire the good for them is gonna really open up your eyes

to not be someone that, that's building up this false reality.

Having conversations that have never been had, you know?

Yes.

And being able to really hone in on what was he saying?

What did he mean?

If you don't know what he means, ask him.

You know, stop.

We continue to play games it well into marriage and so make an agreement to stop

doing that cuz it's no longer a game.

I mean, now this is about your salvation, you know, your, your

marriage is about holiness.

And so being able to put forever kind of effort into a forever kind

of thing is important in this place.

And so, uh, yeah, that's really, really beautiful to, to keep your feet

grounded in what's been given to you.

Oh, absolutely Rachel.

So good.

So can Rachel, can you tell me where women can get a copy of your book, where they

can find you in the, in on the internet, social media so they can follow along?

Sure.

So I'm on social media, pretty active on, on Instagram, Twitter, all those things.

Um, Rachel Boman.

Tried to make that pretty easy.

And Rachel bolman.com is the website and they can get with all her mind from

the word on Fire bookstore or on Amazon.

And then, um, becoming wife saying Yes to more than the dress is out

there on the Osv Bookstore website.

Or you can find on Amazon and in a lot of retail places where you can get a book,

you should be able to find that one too.

Beautiful.

Thank you so much for joining us, Rachel.

It's such a blessing.

Thank you.

It's been a pleasure.

Thank you.

Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Rachel and myself.

I really would love to encourage you to get a copy of both of the books.

As she said, you can find them on Amazon or word on Fire.

I'll leave some notes in the show notes so that you can click through to order those.

If you've liked this conversation, could I ask you to do me a small

favor and head on over to the podcast platform that you're listening to and

just leave a quick rating and review.

This really helps.

Support the work of the Genius Podcast and the work that we

do here at The Genius Project.

Until next week, ladies, have a beautiful week and God bless you.