We know that the number one expense cost in most businesses is dealing
with the lost productivity in their employees, and it ties into depression.
So the World Health Organization has done studies that show that, you know,
that is the biggest business cost many organizations face in terms of.
Lost work days, lost productivity, turnover, and that's just depression.
Welcome to Passion and Profits Without Burnout.
I'm your host, Jacob Moore.
I'm a speaker, coach, childhood suicide loss survivor and filmmaker who left
Hollywood to follow my heart of service.
I've helped tens of thousands of people find the balance in their
life between passion and profits.
On the show, I'm gonna teach you how to build a trauma responsive, resilient,
and impactful community and organization.
All without burning out.
Let's get started.
Mike Bushman, welcome back.
I'm excited to wrap up this three part episode on how to.
Create a mentally healthy work environment.
We've already talked about in part one.
how to run ideal stress environments in part two, adjusting for individual minds.
while in a supervisory role.
During this segment, we're gonna talk about achieving stronger operational
results, or soar as you call it, for those who are not yet convict.
That they need to be running ideal stress environments and
adjusting for individual minds.
Mike, can you share what the stakes are here?
Why is it important from an organizational perspective to make
these adjustments for employees and to the culture of an organiz?
Well, I think it starts with, you know, we know that the number one expense cost
in most businesses is dealing with the lost productivity in their employees.
And it ties into depression.
So the World Health Organization has done studies that show that, you know,
that is the biggest business cost many organizations face in terms of
lost work days, lost productivity, turnover, and that's just depress.
And then you add anxiety, bipolar disorder, all the other, you know, P T S
D, all the other mental health challenges.
And pretty soon you're talking, you know, historically that was
about 25% of the P population has a diagnosable mental health condition.
Mm-hmm.
Of which only less than half are diagnosed and less than
half of those are being treated.
But, That's a pretty big part of your population that has some
particular challenge where how management interacts with them can
either make them more productive or dramatically less productive.
So making that, making these adjustments, running that ideal stress environment,
adjusting for individual minds makes a big financial difference, you know.
It's on the order to of several percent of, of earnings that is lost to just the
mental health aspect of it, let alone getting into the productivity piece.
Yeah,
absolutely.
And when you're talking about, you know, percentages of populations, I
think something that I want to just make sure is, is clear to those who
are listening is, you know, when, when.
Talking about those who are actually diagnosed, those who are treated, it's, I,
I think you said before, a quarter of the population, that we're working with here.
Who need some type of accommodation, whether or not they have an a, d a plan.
Right.
And that quarter of the population was actually pre pandemic.
Mm-hmm.
We know that depression and anxiety rates soared, almo in some cases
nearly doubled among adults and certainly among kids, which has its
translating effect on their parents.
Of course.
So, you know, it may be even a greater challenge than that is, in today's
environment we're, we're still in recovery from pandemic in terms of the mental
health challenges people are facing.
Yeah,
absolutely.
And then we just look at.
Normal life circumstances, right?
life is, has trauma inherent right in it, whether it's, you know, loss or,
you know, grief that we're dealing with, the financial stressors.
and, and certainly social dynamics.
there's.
There's a lot that people are dealing with outside of the workplace that of course
they bring with them into the workplace.
There's no, you know, work Jake and non-work.
Jake, I'm just Jake.
And, and what, what comes, you know, what, what affects me outside of the, of, of
my work affects me inside of it as well.
So we, you know, we're really talking about.
Needing to pay attention to everyone.
now whether or not we need to make accommodations is a, a different,
you know, different situation.
But, certainly we need to be cognizant of what, what's affecting people.
Right?
Yeah.
And actually you raise a really critical point, There's been research done on
hedge fund managers, individual hedge fund managers versus group hedge fund managers.
Research done on CEOs versus board members, and what it shows
is death of a family member, child, spouse, somebody close.
For a CEO leads to as much as a 10% drop in earnings of that company.
Wow.
In the year after, in the years after that death of a individual hedge
fund manager re results in a drop in performance of that individual hedge fund.
Now, when the hedge fund manager encounters a death and they're part
of a collective group decision, there's no impact because the group
around them makes a difference just as they showed with board members.
You know, the board members can suffer the same kind of loss that A C E O would
suffer, and there's no collective impact on the organization's performance.
So I think one of the takeaways from that research and from some other research
is that when you have somebody going through a a, a terrible loss, a grief, a
struggle, That might be the time to get them more involved in group projects.
Hmm.
to take 'em away from that individual performance role where
there's nobody supporting 'em.
Because as we're going through these life difficulties, having a team around
you, a supportive team, can make a real difference in your ability to cope.
the oxytocin, release that we get from interacting with people we
respect and care about mm-hmm.
Can help to, you know, provide a little bit of.
Positive brain chemistry that makes it just slightly easier to
endure, some of those traumas.
So I, I think there's actually a benefit to all employees looking at
what they're experiencing and dealing with and maybe making modifications
whenever you can, in how their work is assigned and what they focus on.
Yeah.
Mike, what I hear you saying is that the same approach that we take.
Outside of work for, you know, healing, which includes surrounding ourselves with
community, whether that be, you know, family or peer support, like-minded, you
know, people or, our, our therapeutic relationships, that bringing that same
idea into the workplace is imperative for.
The effects of, you know, trauma or loss, that we might experience as well, right?
absolutely.
And I think whenever somebody's dealing with something that's just
really painful and difficult, that that group support, that peer support,
that community support, having a place that you feel like you belong.
Can be really healing.
Mm-hmm.
and it, you know, you may not see it day one, but you definitely see it over time.
So, you know, if there's a takeaway, you know, as we've looked at some
of the adverse life event research is don't isolate those people.
Don't put them in roles where they don't have anybody around them.
You know, get them involved in a group project, even if their job
requires them to be, you know, spend 90% of the time doing just
individual at their computer work.
That's the time you wanna assign them to get involved in something that, you
know, has a, a bigger corporate role.
Or just ask them to take on, an additional project as long as you can do it in a way
that doesn't overwhelm them physically.
And, because having that community around them definitely can be a
difference in helping to reengage, re.
Comfort them all at the same time.
Absolutely.
Mike, I'm reminded of my conversation with, Megan Rearden Jarvis, who
is an expert in, grief and loss.
and, and, she.
Talked about this, culture that often happens, in the workplace
and at large as well, where when someone experiences, some type of
loss, oftentimes our instinct is to.
To leave them alone.
Right.
We don't wanna bother them.
We don't want to, you know, force ourselves upon them.
We want to give them space and time to be able to process and,
and do what they need to do.
but in fact, what the research has shown is that those individuals actually, like
you said, need community around them.
They need people to come around them and, and to be there, not to necessarily.
To talk about what's happening, but just to be present.
Right?
and that the effects of a, a loss of community actually exacerbate what,
that loss, is and can lead to, some really detrimental effects in, in,
you know, That sense of isolation.
So, you know, just to reinforce what you're saying, it's, it's vitally
important that we come together around, our coworkers and our, our,
employees who are experiencing some type of, you know, traumatic or
adverse experience in their life.
Yeah.
And I, I certainly learned over from my own experience with struggling
with depression, my, my go-to response, and this is actually fairly
normal for people who struggle with depression, is when I'm struggling.
My natural instinct is to withdraw.
And what I've learned is that's exactly when I need to reach out to my brothers,
my friends, other people that I know I'm gonna have positive interaction with.
Even though I might feel exhausted pretty quickly in dealing with
that interaction, I need it and.
That's the case in the workplace when we get, when we ha deal
with something difficult.
You know, the natural instinct of a lot of people is to try and step back when,
and that's when others need to reach out and say, let's get you engaged.
but to your point, it doesn't be have to be talking about their grief.
It's just sometimes just being distracted by doing something
else.
Yep.
Yeah, I think that's great.
So, you know, bringing this into this idea of, achieving stronger operational
results, what I'm hearing as a strategy here is, This idea of group work or
group projects or group decision making.
can you share a little bit more about that?
You know, what's sort of the process for, doing that?
Because I, I, I would imagine it can be a little bit tricky.
You know, if someone's going through something then to, you know, say like,
Hey, we're gonna, we're gonna take you off of this solo project, and now you've
gotta work in a group and be babysat like that, that's not gonna feel good.
Right.
So how do you tactfully approach that situation to make them, you know, help
them understand that, you know, this is something to, so that they feel supported?
Yeah, I th I think a lot of it is just how you approach.
It's, just saying, Hey, you know, we want to get you engaged.
You've got a lot of value to the organization.
Maybe start with saying, I wanna remind you that, you know, you're
our top performing person at this.
You're really great at how you interact with people and those skills.
Are gonna be valuable if we can have you as part of this project for a while.
Mm-hmm.
And then, you know, if you can help us with this, you know,
obviously we're gonna move back.
What you don't want to do is make them feel unsettled about their
security within the organization.
Yeah.
But just let them know this.
No, this is, this is us respecting how valuable you are to the organization.
and you don't want to treat it.
you might not be able to handle doing this on your own.
You wanna say, you know, we need you, to be engaged in this.
And I know you've got a lot of difficulties in your life, but
people need to be relied on.
Mm-hmm.
They want to be needed.
And when you've suffered some loss, knowing that you're
needed can help re-energize and provide that sense of purpose.
Yeah.
You know, the one caution, you know, and I think you've, we've talked about this
in the past, is you can't overwhelm.
You can't make it so burdensome that they're physically just exhausting.
It's more than the they can handle, cuz that, you know, that can
actually spiral the wrong direction.
So you do have to pay attention to have I, have I just given you more
with no resource or no time or am I giving you something different?
And giving you the time and capacity to take it on.
Yeah, I, I appreciate that.
And that reminds me of what you talked about in the last segment.
adjusting for individual minds, this idea of, you know, longer term projects and
that, that allow people to work at their capacity during any given time, I think
is a really, like, it's a genius approach.
because.
You are, I think, doubling down on your investment in that employee
by saying, Hey, here's something, a project that it's vitally
important that you're involved with.
And it's a long-term project that says to them that's, that's that,
you know, affirmation that, Hey, we see you here in the future.
and for the long run.
right.
But understanding that right now, because it's a long-term project.
We can titrate the workload as necessary.
And if there's a little, you know, less that, you're able to
produce right now, that's okay.
We can, we can focus on broad strokes right now and then get into more
detailed, more intensive work later.
and then if you are also involving.
Others, to help, you know, share the decision making in the
workload, then you really have a, a beautiful balance of, you know, that
long-term vision, or that long view.
And also this group work that helps to actually, you know, reduce
some of the burden on someone.
So, I, I, I think that's a brilliant approach.
Yeah, for sure.
No, it's something that, Just trial and error.
it made sense to me and tried it and it works and I can't guarantee it will
work with everybody, but I know it works better than just leaving people isolated.
Yeah,
absolutely.
Well, and when we're talking about, you know, This idea of, you know,
achieving stronger operational results and, and how imperative it is as an
organization to make these investments.
I'm sort of, me personally and, and my skillsets, which I'm realizing
might be slightly limited in this way.
It, it just seems like you have to simultaneously.
Your eye on, you know, the big picture and understand, a lot of dynamics.
certainly, you know, the, the projects, both short and long term,
the staffing and, and how they.
Interact with, you know, these long-term, you know, goals and strategies, while
simultaneously being focused on the individuals and those details and
the minutiae of, you know, what's happening in those dynamics day-to-day.
That's, that's a lot.
That's.
Really, I think, it, it, to me it seems a little daunting, to
have to do both simultaneously.
How, how were you able as a manager to, to really achieve that balancing act?
Yeah, and, and the reality is you're not gonna get it right all the time.
So this is all, you know, you make progress.
You try and do the best that you can with what you know, but it's really not as
time consuming as many people think it is.
It's really just about even being aware of the concepts, which is why I think
the rising aim, so training so valuable.
If you haven't even thought of these conceptually, it's not even
gonna cross your mind to make those adjustments for the individual mind.
Sure.
When you're aware of the concepts, I think a lot of these things
come much more naturally.
You know, a lot of our gut instinct tells us what the right answer is.
If we've been exposed to language that says, trust your gut instinct because
this does, this is an approach that makes sense, then you're gonna say,
okay, I'm more likely to do it than.
You didn't get it in your mba.
I didn't get it in my MBA courses.
Right.
You know, we didn't talk about mental health management, at,
in the, in the MBA program.
But if you've been exposed to the business side and the mental health side, you
can see how, you know, brain capacity.
Brain health has everything to do with the, ability of the employee
to perform at a high level.
having them engaged has everything to do with employee retention.
With, you know, reducing those turnover costs with, not having lost work days
with improving, you know, the interactions of the people inside the organization.
And, you know, as we talked about, how many people struggle, you know, if you've
got 25 out of a hundred people in an organization who have a diagnosable mental
health condition at any given time, how many people does each employee touch?
Well, usually, Several at least.
Yep.
So you've really affected the whole organization by not doing anything.
So if you can make minor adjustments, it's not only improving the
performance that one person.
It's improving the performance of people around them who say, oh, you're
holding this person accountable.
They're performing at a high level.
Yeah, this is a high performing organization.
I need to perform at a better level to make sure I stay part of
a high performing organization.
If you've got an organization where people are not performing at their capacity,
everybody around them sees, yeah, we, you can get away with stuff here.
Sure.
And you don't have to put in the.
and so it has an effect of dragging down that entire organization in a way
that might not be visible in one day.
But if you look over time and the research that's been done
that looks at it over time.
We know it makes a difference.
Yeah, absolutely.
I, I appreciate that perspective, Mike, and, and this idea that,
you know, we really can like that it's okay to make mistakes.
That it is part of the process of, you know, being a manager, being a leader.
you don't have to get it right and it's not, you're not
gonna find it in a textbook.
You're not gonna find it in a, in an MBA course.
this is something that you have to, And practice in order to get, get good at,
you know, the skillset of, you know, really making these, these adjustments.
Right.
And, one thing that I, you know, I, I appreciate about you and your
approach, Mike, is, that just bringing awareness is, Enough of a start.
and, and that for me yeah, for sure is really helpful just to, take the pressure
off and to say, no, it, it's, okay.
Let's, let's just start by learning this language of making
accommodations and, you know, trying to understand what people's needs are.
that's, that's where we go.
That's great.
Yeah, and
it, it, it makes me think of a woman who worked for me who was a really
good performer, and then over a period of several months became just really
aggressive, maybe even verbally abusive to the point where we had to, we had
to take her out of the organization.
Had I been thinking about what was going on and that this was
not normal for her and intervened earlier, I would've just asked you.
Something's different about you.
You seem much more upset.
Is there something going on that it would be helpful for us to know and come to
find out they were dealing with a really nasty personal situation that had a
dramatic effect on, on her personality.
Hmm.
And had we been able to just help her get help with that personal situation.
We wouldn't have had to go through all of the hassle of dealing with,
you know, exiting her from the organization trying to replace her,
which took actually a couple of times to find somebody who was as good.
So there's, there's a selfish reason to do it.
So when we talk about strengthening operations and results, it's about
thinking selfishly beyond what, what makes me feel good today, and really
what helps me in the long term and what helps the organization in the long.
Because it's easy to just react to what bothers you today.
Yep.
In a way that helps relieve your tension, but does it fix the
problem and fix the organization?
And usually that gut instinct reaction, or not the instinct
reaction, but the first, reaction might miss what's really happening.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
I, I think that's, really a.
Just a, a really mindful approach to, you know, these, these challenges.
And it, it sort of reminds me of couples therapy a little bit.
you know, this idea of like, what, what do I ultimately want out of this situation?
What do I ultimately want from this relationship?
And what are the short term, you know, Maybe, sacrifices or
compromises that I can make in order to achieve what I'm looking
for long-term in this relationship.
And I think the, the more that we bring that mentality to the workplace, the
better off we're going to be and the better, managers, we're gonna be and the
better results we're going to achieve.
So I think that's fantastic, Mike.
I, I like that perspective, and I think it's exactly
right.
Oh, thank you Mike.
as we wrap up, this, three segment episode here, on Rise Am so can you
share maybe final takeaway, what, what is it that, you want people to
understand as they walk away from this and, maybe want to explore these
more in-depth workshops on Rising Am.
Yeah, I think that big takeaways is, you know, our brains are complex.
You know, each one of us has 86 billion neurons.
Each neuron has roughly 10,000 points of connection.
There's at least a hundred different brain chemistries that help information
move, determine even whether you can be happy in that moment.
So, you know, the idea that people should at all times be able to,
Make their brain work optimally.
It just doesn't make sense.
You know, nobody hesitates to get somebody to teach 'em how to
play 88 keys on a piano, right?
But we all hesitate to get a brain coach.
If we normalize the concept of getting a brain coach,
we're all gonna be better off.
And if you think in, in organizations, how many organizations
will hire an executive coach?
For that high level, really expensive, high paid position, but
then won't spend 400 bucks to help somebody who's a frontline employee
succeed at a much higher level with the returns that on average are
$1,800 for the $400 investment.
so, you know, we have to think of it in terms of there's a return here.
And we're helping this person, you know, perform at their best.
We're not trying to say that you shouldn't get rid of poor performers.
Every organization has poor performers.
I had people who were just in the wrong roles and our company didn't
have the right roles, who went on to other organizations and really
succeeded, and they stayed friends because, you know, we talked about
here's what you're really good at.
That's not what we need.
So how do we get you.
To move to a job where you're doing the things you're really good at
and you know, you, you can help the employee, while helping the business
because then you're replacing them in that case with a better employee.
But most of the talent that you need is already inside the organization.
And if you just make minor adjustments, Very simple adjustments.
In some cases, sometimes a little more complex, but those simple adjustments
have returns that are many times what it costs to, to implement that.
And you know, from a manager's standpoint, you may have to
Inge invest several minutes.
Mm-hmm.
In, you know, meeting out the assignments as the person can handle it, or a couple
of hours and listening to, presentation a couple of times, you know, that you
might not otherwise want to, but when you compare that time to what you save
by having better work, having lower turnover, having engaged employees Yeah.
Who are performing at a high level, the returns are just significantly.
Than whatever you invest in it.
Yeah, absolutely.
And Mike, I'll link in the show notes here, where people can, learn more about
you and this, this program Rise Ames.
So, and, you know, that's something that I would encourage, you know, all of our
listeners to do is, you know, really.
That investment, you know, individually and, you know, at organizationally
to, just help ensure that everyone across, you know, the entire culture
of of a company is, is speaking the same language and on the same page.
like you said, we all need that brain coaching and, and that
shouldn't be something that's just reserved for the C-suite.
Absolutely.
Well, Mike, thank you so much.
This has been, invaluable and I really appreciate your time and,
and just the great work that you do.
Thank you.
Thank you, Jake.
And as you know, as I've told you, I've always enjoyed working with
you and love what you contribute to the world and to the community.
And, just, look forward to continuing to work with you whenever we get a.
Likewise.
Thanks so much for listening to Passion and Profits Without Burnout.
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