Welcome to the Continuing Education for Mental Health Professionals podcast. Today we are hosting another CEU Provider Spotlight Conversation. This is where we learn more about CEU providers in our community and their journeys. My name is Natasha Moharter, and I'm a licensed counselor and OCD specialist. I run the Facebook group CE for Mental Health Professionals, and if you're a mental health professional, we'd love to have you join us in that space. I am so excited because we are joined by our very special guest, Vanya Gadabedian. With over 20 years of experience in the mental health field, Vanya offers a rich and diverse range of expertise. As the founder of Intentional Path Counseling, she is dedicated to fostering supportive, engaging, and informative environments for learning and growth. She has expertise in supporting providers to engage in their own healing journeys so they can better support the people and communities they care for with a focus on trauma, diversity, equity, inclusion, ethics, and supervision. Welcome Vanya, it is such a pleasure to have you here today.

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

Can you share a little bit about your background and what got you interested in becoming a creator and CEU provider?

Oh man. So I really enjoy facilitation and supporting others and showing up in ways that I can be helpful in the communities that I'm a part of. So kind of combining my passion with recognizing that I'm effective at doing these things has really driven me to, start doing this. And I have a really strong belief to like with privilege comes responsibility. I have this information, I have this skillset, I have this perspective, I have this experience. And with that, I feel pretty strongly comes a responsibility to do what I can to share support and enable growth for others too.

What have been your favorite parts of this journey into content creation and training?

Oh my gosh. I think my absolute favorite part is the people that I get to meet and the growth that I get to see. Like there is nothing that I like better than watching someone go from one place to another in a direction that they haven't been able to move before or a new insight, a new awareness. I'm really driven by people, uh, and community building and connection. Yeah, that's what I love. I also get pretty nerdy with information and research. So I really enjoy the deep dives too into information.

One of the things that I think about with content creation is by the time that they are done taking our training, what is it that we hope to help them to accomplish? What can they implement as soon as they are done with our training? And it sounds like you have discovered your ability to be able to be that support that bridge.

Yeah. I love that you use the term "bridge." Cause that's kind of how I think of myself because of the different worlds that I've had the privilege of getting to walk in like whiteness and, and people of color. Like I have always just naturally been a bridge in these two worlds because of my different experiences. There's so much divisiveness in the world today and in our country and how can I do my little brick in the wall to support bridging these gaps.

And from what I see, it seems like you really are making an impact. It can be scary to have an opinion that some people might not agree with.

Yes. So like that is something that I have had to work on a great deal and continue to work on is that anxiety and anxiousness around, oof, the more I do this, the more I'm putting myself out there and the more I become a potential target or, whatever you want to say a potential person people look to, and that's kind of terrifying to be honest. That scares me. And, And I guess like I learned, uh, in my, my mid twenties, I guess, uh, that, uh, courage is walking through that fear. So I've really kind of held onto that. It's like, okay, we're just going to keep walking. We're going to keep walking.

I so appreciate that realness as well, because, one of the things that has been brought up in conversations about content creation and putting our work out there and picking up the training and expertise that we have and sharing it even in these types of CEU trainings. It can be intimidating. It can feel like. But do I really know this? When we have a subject to teach we know that we learn it a little bit better. And so we get a little bit more in depth knowledge with it. But it can be really intimidating to just kind of take those first steps and say, Hey, I'm going to post the thing. Hey, I'm going to put myself out there. I'm going to be seen because we know that not everybody is going to agree with us. And yet there's going to be so many people that need us with our voice, with the way that we look, our experience, our background, to bring that voice and to be that contributor.

Absolutely. It's like uh, how do I do it even though it's hard? That's kind of a mantra that goes on in my head, as well as like, slow down without stopping is something I'm currently working on. Yeah, it's challenging and scary and all the things. And I don't know how to not do it cause it's so important to me. And there is a personal benefit I get from it too, because you're absolutely right. I gain knowledge. I gain understanding into myself and my experience, which is invaluable. Absolutely. And I, I, that's one of my favorite parts about it too, that you asked earlier. It's like the learning and growth that I get to do.

That was something in our first meeting that really stood out to me is, I think we're both learners and we like to continue to learn. And we're also maybe willing to challenge ourselves, to be open to new information. I think you have to be, especially in your role where you're teaching and you're presenting on some of these really important topics that people might have feelings about, but to be confident in what you're saying and also willing to learn and take in new information. And that's very much what I see you embody.

Yeah, thank you. It's really important. I believe this strongly that those of us that are working in the service fields of supporting people through their growth to say the hard thing, to bring the hard conversation and to do it in a way where we're not, isolating anybody. I mean, it's not going to be perfect, right? I make mistakes all the time. And I actually use that as part of my learning. Like, I'm going to demonstrate to you how fallible I am and how human I am. And hopefully that creates space for people to be vulnerable. It's really, I think, like, it's important for me to say the hard thing and bring the, because if we're not, if not us, who? We are like the front lines in mental health and supporting people in their growth. Who, if it's not us?

Right. Going back to that sense of kind of responsibility. And what keeps us going, for sure. So, next question, what have been some of your least favorite parts into this journey of content creation?

Yeah, so I am pretty severely ADD, like I have been my whole life. So I get lost in information and I have like this, and I don't know if it's my least favorite part. Well, I guess this is the most challenging part. I'll say it like that. So I get, I, I, I'm out here, I'm in the macro and it's a lot of time and energy for me to bring it in. So the most challenging part I'll say is when I'm doing the deep dive and I'm doing the research and all of that, I end up with so much information and such this huge kind of thing that it's, it's a process that I've learned about myself and how I go through it and have worked on some acceptance around it. And it's still challenging to bring it in to where we are right here, right now and how I can kind of get lost in that. I guess maybe the least favorite part might be. Putting the folders together. Like, yeah, like that, that actual administrative part, right? Like making the copies, putting the folders together and PowerPoints. I'm not, I'll be honest. I am not a fan and I do them and I provide them because it's beneficial and there's different kinds of learners and it's a struggle. So that's challenging for me as well.

Again, I so appreciate your realness with this. What I've kind of stumbled upon is that a lot of us content creators are neurodivergent. And that natural struggle that comes with it and like, we can get bored easily. Do you have any kind of tips and tricks for anybody who might also struggle with this?

Oh my gosh. It's so funny. Cause I do get bored easily, which is also one of the reasons I do so many of the things that you see me doing. Cause if I'm doing just one thing, I just, I can't, I need to do other things as well to keep myself invested. And for me, what's really important is I have to be passionate about it because of all the, you know, the background work, like there's so much that goes into for me, like a training, like what people are seeing is like just a tip of, the iceberg of work that's underneath. And in order for me to be able to stay engaged in that iceberg of work, I have to be, for me, I have to be passionate about it. So I really encourage people to go with what they resonate with, what they, it's not hard for them to get their values in alignment with, like I'm not going to do workshops around topics that they're, they're important and they're helpful. And I'm going to let the ones who have that passion and drive do those. Cause it's just going to end up feeling tedious and laborious because it, it is a lot of, it's a lot of labor. So I, I really need to be invested and in alignment with my values and what I think is important.

And time is our most valuable resource. And so if we're going to spend time engaged in research and training, it really does matter what we're studying or what we're interested in. And then I think it really can come across in our trainings as well.

Absolutely. I don't know if you've ever been to a training where you can tell the person is just really not, they're just doing their job, that I can't do it. I learned that about myself at a very early age too. Like if I'm going to be working, I'm going to do something that I'm really passionate about.

So another question, you have a passion for supporting providers to engage in their own healing journey so that they can better support the people and communities they care for. What is it about these topics that gives you energy and commitment to keep getting out there and training others?

Oh my gosh. It's so important. It's such important work. And it's one of my top values as a person in this world, existing with other people in this world, and also my own personal experience. And when I was in school, they're like, Oh, this whole cultural competency. And I remember thinking, how am I expected to be culturally competent on other people's cultures? And it didn't make sense to me. And what I understood was I, the only person I can be an expert on is me and my experience. And that for me and my practice and how I show up in the world is the most important thing for me to be an expert on. Cause if I can understand my life, my experience. I remember when I first learned like that, I had a story, it was before I got into this field, right? Like, I was like, Oh, everyone has a story then. It's so important for me to understand my own experience, to do my healing around my wounds. So many people get into this field, let's be honest, because they've had really challenging lives. And it is a wealth of information and experience people bring to it. And sometimes there can be a missed opportunity to do the healing and work around that. And then unintended harm happens. And I've experienced the unintended harm. I've watched the unintended harm. And again, it goes back to this core value of mine. Like we're fallible, we're human, we're all doing the best that we can. And how do we do better? So how do I be a part of that solution to support people in doing better? I can't be an expert on you. I've lived in New Mexico since 2002. I'm not an expert on New Mexican culture. And it would be insulting and rude to say that I was. Cause we all have our glasses, right? That we're seeing the world through literally and figuratively. So how can I get clear on what is mine so I can put it aside. I'm not trying to get rid of my identity or anyone else's or erasure or anything like that. If I'm committed to supporting people and their journey, how do I put my experience aside so I can be present so they can teach me who they are. And that is such a core to what I do.

How does my lens influence how I'm showing up? We're all the, the hero in our own story.

It's so important. Like the storytelling, right? Like my family history is storytelling. We don't have a paper trail until my grandparents made it to the United States. So previous to that, it's all storytelling. And there's a lot of bad people in my story. Like there's a lot of bad characters. And of course we're the ones who were, you know, whatever, like we're in the right. And I'm not saying that isn't correct because genocide's a part of my, my family history. What I'm saying is the people who harmed my family in my story were also the heroes and their story. I so appreciate that you said that. And we were the bad guy. And how can I, and it requires me doing my own, I do a lot of, I do a lot of trauma work for myself. And how do I heal these, these wounds, these generational experiences. And so if somebody comes into my office that represents whatever, my "bad guy", right? Like how can I get to a place where I can create a space for them as well? And again, I feel like if we're going to be in this type of work and I know everybody doesn't feel this way, and I want to be clear, people get to have boundaries. They get to decide populations that they work with. For me, I have chosen, I want to be a bridge. That means I'm going to be working with people who don't agree with me, disagree, whatever. I'm going to be working with all walks of life. So it becomes incredibly important for those of us that choose that to be able to create the same inclusive space for the person that agrees exactly opposite of me. The other thing that you made me think of is like the decolonizing work, right? Like we talked about a little bit before we got on here, like that idea of what is professionalism? Well, how are we supposed to show up? And I was nervous. I mean, I told you I'm nervous being here. I've never done anything like this. So if I can just like name that, and who told me I had to be perfect and upfront and, you know, not make any mistakes. It's not realistic. We're all doing the best that we can. If I have not had an opportunity to learn to do something differently, why, why am I going to be expected to do that? And what makes me feel like I can judge someone else for it? Cause I don't know their story. I don't know if they've had an opportunity. It can be controversial even in the circles that I walk in because there's people like wrong is wrong, like right racism is wrong. I agree a hundred and ten percent. How do I see the human that is caught in these beliefs so I can support that human? And getting through that to the other side. And I've actually gotten to witness that, which is really exciting. There's nothing more exciting than having a racist come to me for, for therapy. And I get to support their transformation and come to the other side. Like that is like everything to me. So for me to be up at the front or teaching people and acting like, so this is what we're going to do today. And this is what's professional, blah, blah, blah, blah. I am doing people a disservice. I'm not giving them any permission to be human. I'm not giving them any permission to be fallible. I'm unintentionally possibly creating self judgment in people and it no longer is a space where people feel like they can speak up and say, say the hard thing, which is, or challenge themselves, which is really what I'm focused on.

It's so neat to hear just your values and what's important to you and how you show up with clients, the framework that you use when you say, you know, I am choosing to work with certain people that might very heavily disagree with me. And I'm okay with that because I've done my own work and I'm willing to show up and, like you said, be that bridge. And it's definitely okay that we choose and we have certain boundaries on certain things. There are people like that, if we only stay in our own little groups, then how does that information get communicated? How can we humanize each other if we are just othering all the time. And I think about the topics that you teach on that you train on. All of that, I could see where that is so incredibly important to have the value system that you do and your willingness to go into very uncomfortable spaces. It's not fun when people disagree with us. And yet to be able to say, okay, but you're human. And how can we go forward here? Conflict doesn't have to equal disconnection.

Absolutely. And like with that, it's funny. Cause somebody reached out to me, another clinician, a colleague who was like, you teach the hard stuff. You do the hard trainings. And it's so funny. Cause to me, it's not hard. Is it challenging? Yes. It's almost like, I don't know what else I would do. And being aware that for a lot of people, it's really hard to like look at. And I mean, there's so many reasons why it's not hard for me. Uh, Not meaning that I know it all or get it perfectly. It's just, I don't know how not to be challenged. Is that a trauma response? Is that this overdeveloped sense of responsibility and all of these things? And I don't even know if it matters as much as like, what am I doing with it? And if this is what I'm skillful at, I'm, I'm good at being challenged. I'm okay with that. Like, let's do it. You know, let's get in there. I also want to be really clear. People get to have their boundaries. Like I know people who want to only work with this population or that population. I think that is just as important. I think there's room and space for all of it. And we need this diverse, population of providers to be able to show up, and supportive people to walk alongside of them and give people spaces to do what they need to do.

And it's really neat how even just now you're talking about how your history, how your story influences the work that you do, the trainings that you put together, the topics that you're interested in. And like you said, it's not, unfamiliar to be challenged or to be in that space of critical thinking.

This might sound egotistical and feel free to edit it out. But I was thinking like, I remember at a young age, in my twenties, I'm like, I just want to get paid to be myself. How can I do that? And it took me a lifetime. I worked in mental and behavioral health since like the age of like 27. In like you know, those front line staff positions. So I remember thinking, like, how do I just get paid to be myself? Because I was not a happy person in this world. I was not somebody who wanted to even be on this planet. So if I was gonna be here, I needed to find something that was meaningful, that was in line with who I am. And make a living at it. Okay. That's no small order. I got my master's degree when I was 40 and worked my way through school, right. And the goal has always been to how do I get paid to be myself? And I look around at the privileged, beautiful life that I have today. And I can honestly say I get paid to be myself now. And it took a minute, you know, I'm like 53 now. Like it took me a minute to get here and I'm here. And I am so grateful. Like people used to tell me before, they're like, wait till you're grateful for all of it. I'm like, all of it? I am absolutely grateful for all of it. It's like, oh, and I had that inkling early on. Like if I'm going to do something and spend all my time doing that, or a lot of my time, how much time we spend at work earning income to exist in this world, I gotta like it. I gotta just be able to be me. And that's been a really driving force in all of it and for people who may not be there yet like it is totally possible to get paid to be yourself.

I really think that that's actually a huge piece of hope that I see in finding income outside of the therapy realm. I have other interests or I have other dreams or I have other expertise and how can I share that as well? And training for a lot of people, can be kind of a natural avenue. A lot of us are natural learners and a lot of us like to share that knowledge. And it can be so important to say, I need to be me, I need to be representative of who I am, my story, my history, what I bring to the table, right? And I don't have to be somebody else. I heard this thing and it sticks with me and it says, we don't have to be experts to be contributors. It can take some of the pressure off of us to say, you have to know everything and be infallible. Thanks, anxiety, for wanting me to do a good job. And I'm going to show up and I might mess up and I might say things that sound weird. Or I might be my awkward self and somebody might not like that. And I'm going to show up anyways because there are going to be people that this is going to resonate with.

I do experiences where people think somehow I'm special, I'm different. And I don't see it that way. I was not supposed to graduate from high school. I wasn't raised with awareness that I had intelligence or capability of learning. I was raised with what was reflected back to me as being someone who wasn't intelligent, someone who isn't able to do big things. I wasn't raised to go to college. I am a person in long term recovery from addiction and trauma, like none of this has been easy. This is like decades, decades of work on self and willingness to be really good at being uncomfortable, which I think has to do with my history and willingness to do the hard thing and there's been a lot of privilege and support, which comes back to that bridge, and also adversity, which I believe really puts me in this unique position. I guess I just share that to bring it down a notch when people, it's really easy to look at someone and say, oh yeah, but. And I used to do that. And the realization that no man, like we're all just figuring it out as we go was really helpful for me. It's hard. I know I got the idea that life wasn't supposed to be this hard, and I'm not sure where I got it because that hasn't been my experience. I think that's an important thing to kind of call out too. Like, if I can do it, anyone can. And whatever that do it is, whatever that is for you. It's going to be different for everyone.

I think about ADHD and women just recently being recognized and some of how that might influence internalized ableism. And sometimes I think about, overnight successes. Because we're like, what happened? You know, the universe must have gotten together and like pushed them forward. We don't see, that's the tip of the iceberg, we don't see all the hard work.

I don't know any overnight successes, even the people that we're pretty sure are. There's a lot of work that isn't seen and it's so worth it. And I guess I was fortunate cause I was diagnosed at a young age. Like when I was 12, I was in middle school. And they didn't really know what to do with me, so I would get put back and forth between gifted and special ed classes. And, just feeling kind of like an alien most of my life, which is also a common human trait, is to not feel like you belong. It was helpful in some ways and not helpful in other ways. And for me personally, it created a lot of shame because it wasn't talked a lot about back in the day. It wasn't out there like it is today. Like, and I'm talking about the seventies and eighties, like when people were like, they're just like. Special ed kid or something, you know, there wasn't any sort of template or role model to be like, Hey, actually you have all these gifts. Though my mom was amazing and recognizing my artistic talents at a young age. And she used to like really push me in that direction to be an artist. I have a strong creative streak and I'm really grateful for her. Like she used to tell people all the time, Oh, this is my flower child. She was just born in the wrong era because I was so just different. Like, you know, just different from everyone. I used to think I was born too late. Now, as I'm seeing these younger generations that are phenomenal and amazing, I'm like, maybe I was born too early. Being different was not, it wasn't helpful in any way. It was really challenging.

It brings me to our next question. You are an advocate for addressing unintended harm within our care systems. Can you share with us your perspective on how focusing on our own development can enhance the quality of care we provide while reducing burnout and vicarious trauma.

That's a big topic. So I mean, this is debatable and people argue with me about this, I don't think there are any inherently bad people. I don't believe that. I think I've worked with three sociopaths in my career. It's not as common as people think. And these people need some special containers and handling. Most people are not bad. I just don't, I don't believe that. So if I am walking around with this idea that there are, then I am going to act from that belief. Like, like there's deeper things that affect and influence who we are and how we show up in the world. And it's implicit. If I am not willing, humble enough, or however you want to word it, to take a look at that, like the unpack your knapsack thing, then I'm going to do unintended harm all over the place. Not on purpose and not because I'm mean and not because I'm evil, because I just don't know. And I haven't taken the opportunity. How many people come from this I really want to help perspective without having an opportunity to take a look at themselves, heal their own wounds, get the care and concern that they want to provide others. How do you find that for yourself? So you can actually show up and walk alongside with someone versus this hero thing that we can get caught up in or somehow I don't, I don't believe in experts. I think we can have really extensive knowledge in different areas. I'll take that. Like if we walk around in this idea, especially in our system, Oh my God, where what is admired, what is celebrated are experts and people who get to be seen as better than and saviors and all of this kind of stuff. I don't buy it. And I see so much unintended harm happening. I'm not saying people don't know a lot about their fields and that's really important and education, whatever that looks like, whether it's the traditional or the life experience or whatever, all of that is important and creates knowledge. There's a saying like hurt people, hurt people. And I did this for a while. I don't have any shame around it. I was an IV drug user. I used heroin and cocaine, until I was 25 and I did unintended harm, whether I meant to or not. And when I got clean, when I had the privilege of being able to be supported to even find recovery, which is a privilege for somebody to even get to see us is a privilege. For someone to get to walk through the door. Even in the early years, I was so angry and I was so depressed and I was just, so disappointed that I was still alive. I don't mean to be dramatic, but I didn't want to be on this planet. And I really, I thought for a long time that I was only harming myself in my use and in my early recovery. And that's not true. Like it's, it's just not true. I didn't learn that to later through work that I've done. And if I hadn't done that work, I might still be an angry, resentful person. And then you look at like the, when people talk about wokeness and being politically correct and all of that kind of stuff, how do we normalize and create spaces where there's opportunity to just see people for who they are, allow them to tell me who they are. No one's going to do it perfectly. We're going to make mistakes. It's not about the missteps. It's about recognizing when you have a misstep so you can walk through it and do it differently. Not being afraid to take risks, because I see that frequently with the white people in my life and colleagues. The fear of saying the wrong thing keeps them quiet. So then they do say something offensive without realizing it. Now it's going to happen. How do I support myself and learning how to navigate it to not just decrease my suffering and hopefully not contribute to the suffering of others.

One of the things that is really standing out is your willingness to be vulnerable and open to new information while also having done the work to know what's important to you, to know your boundaries to know, you know, hey, I want to show up in certain ways to be like we're talking about that bridge. And that requires me to not just immediately, push back on people, or it requires me to kind of show up in a different way.

And I want to be clear too. The people in the streets are important. The people who are calling out injustice, All of these roles are important and necessary, and this is what I see as mine. I can't do it all. What I can do is what I feel passionate about, what I feel like I'm effective at, and I can put my little brick in the wall. I have a lot of friends who are very active in different social justice scenes and hit the streets and sometimes I do too. And, some will be like, you know, like, No, I'm not going to tolerate it. And for them, their different identities put them in a much more vulnerable position than me. So it's also recognizing where do I sit with my privilege? So, I'm not getting mad at my friend. I'm actually in an alignment with them and supporting them and understanding they're in a different world than I am. Like my friends who are part of the LGBTQI community, my friends who are darker skinned than me, they're having a different experience. And by no means, am I saying, put yourself out there in these ways, I'm saying, what do you have to do first to keep yourself safe and participate in the way, I like to say this a lot too, like with my white friends, that's sustainable. So you don't quit, slow down without stopping. Which again comes to like, my own identity and my own privilege. I don't want my, one of my trans friends to go out there and make a big statement unless they want to and they feel support or whatever they get to do whatever, what they want to do. I know I can do that and not fear that I'm going to be attacked for being a trans person.

We can have the same sort of goals and that might look different in how we actually do that. So we discovered that we had similar passions for trainings and getting the word out about these opportunities to facilitate provider growth. While the Facebook group I facilitate focuses more nationally, you've created a growing community of local professionals in New Mexico. Can you share a little bit about how that community came to be and what it's like focusing on a local population?

Yeah, so it's funny because for me, it came down to me and another colleague kind of being a little overwhelmed and frustrated with the local practice page. The frustration was how do we sort through all the noise, cause there's so much participation there to find a workshop. I'm really passionate about like support local when you can. Me and a colleague were talking, were like, ah, so like, how do we create a space that is just for CEUs, for New Mexicans, by new Mexicans? So it's a lot simpler to be able to find what you're looking for if you want to support local versus one of the big companies out there. New Mexico is a very unique state. So a workshop that works on the east coast or even in Texas or on the West Coast, may not work here. So being considerate and conscientious of that and taking into account all the different indigenous people who live here and all the different populations and identities. It's a very LGBTQIA plus friendly state. So I guess that's where it birthed out of frustration, like, which is kind of something that I do too. I create the things that I wish I had is a big part of it as well. I wanted a place to be able to connect with local providers doing CEUs. I wanted a place to be able to let people know about mine. So that's really where it was birthed.

You had mentioned earlier that you like when things make sense to you, right? And even if you have to figure out different avenues to make it work, you are willing to do it. And that group is growing. That group really seems like it's a very valuable resource in the community. And for providers who actually might also want to start a local CEU focused virtual community, do you have any suggestions on how to do that or how to even go about starting?

Well, I was really fortunate that the person that was also frustrated, Antonia Montoya, she is a local amazing therapist here, knew how to do that. So to be honest, I was like, how do I do this? And she's like, I've done this. I know how to do this. So then we paired up and I learned with her while doing it. So I guess I would recommend finding somebody, if you don't know how, find somebody who does, that's something else that, is a skill that I have, like, I, if I don't know how to do it, I go find the person that's doing what I want to do. And then I ask them how they did it.

And one of the things that I think is really neat about some of the virtual spaces is you can have multiple people support. So whether that's through moderation, through different admin roles, right? And so it doesn't only have to be on you if that's not your strength or your forte, but your interest can very much fuel that.

Yeah. And so it's, it's restricted. We do our best to restrict it to people who live in New Mexico. We don't allow groups in there. So we're staying away from the big CEU group providers, national people. And if you, if somebody is watching this and you live in New Mexico and you want to find CEUs that are by New Mexicans for New Mexicans, or you want to get yours out there, it's called CEUs New Mexico Lifelong Learners in Mental and Behavioral Health on Facebook so please join us.

You are a CEU provider approved at the state level by the New Mexico Counseling and Therapy Practice Board. Can you share a little bit about what that process was like getting approved at the state level and any pros or cons that you've seen to being approved at the state level?

I mean, the cons right away is my CEUs that I provide may not be accepted by boards outside of New Mexico. I know some, like the New Mexico board will accept CEUs from anything that is accredited by a board. So I don't know if there are other States that do that. So that's a con. The pro is it was a lot less cumbersome and less expensive, and it was more accessible than the national organizations, which I get frustrated with because I'm not a fan of barriers. And so, I am a social worker. Social justice is my passion. If anyone from the National Association of Social Workers is listening, is there a way to make the accessibility to become a provider more accessible for those of us that are just single practice people, that don't necessarily have the money and the resources to do the things that they're requesting? I haven't looked at it lately, so maybe it's changed. The last time I looked at it, it was really expensive and I haven't counted it out. I just haven't figured out a way to do it. And what I see happen is these large corporations have the resources to do that. But the small, local, whether it's local in where you are or anywhere else, really struggle with getting that, accreditation. So is there a way to ensure quality, because I imagine that's a large part of it, right? While also creating bridges for the small provider to also be able to get that accreditation. I haven't given up. I just haven't found the time yet to navigate it. Being a small business, there isn't a lot of extra income to pay for people to do it for me. So, or to pay the fees that it was the last time I looked. Which really makes me scratch my head because social work is all about social justice and breaking down barriers and accessibility. And here's the national board and there's some really challenging barriers and the accessibility isn't easy. And I understand we're only seeing the tip of their iceberg, so I just know there's more to it that I don't know, and I, I'm just a big believer in being somebody who focuses on the solution. I'm not saying I have the answer. I'm just saying there's not just one way to do things. Cause I've had requests from, lawyers and nurses and doctors who want to do the trainings that I provide. And because my CEUs aren't accepted by their board. They go elsewhere. So I don't know, I don't know the solution, but I'm open to finding it. Like the New Mexico Counseling and Therapy Practice Board is amazing. It's as if they want to support you in providing CEUs. Like the fee is reasonable, the process is reasonable. And my, I want to support local as well. So it's a both and I'm really passionate about our dollars go further when we are focused in our state and being a small local business. I want to support that as well.

So you've mentioned that you prefer in person trainings. What about this format do you like most and what advice would you give to a CEU provider wanting to provide in person trainings as opposed to a virtual setup?

For me, I'm a big believer in the co regulation and the communication of our nervous systems. So I believe in the value of people being in the same room and the container that can be created in a different way when we're in person. Our nervous systems are all communicating, we're co regulating, we're creating more personal space where more people take risks with their questions and what they're willing to do. Of course, a lot of that has to do with how it's, you know, how the container is created. And honestly, I mean, that's what I've always loved. I did not know anything about Zoom. I think maybe like a lot of people pre COVID and when COVID happened, I was like, I think this will be about like nine months. I was changing my practice. I was in private practice. I was moving everything into online. I was, like a lot of us, all hands on deck. The number of people that I was seeing were off the charts. I don't recommend it. The amount of emotional and physical labor that my practice took increased exponentially. So there was a lack of time. I'm seeing people online. And I thought it wasn't going to be as long as it was. So now what's interesting is this past year, I did my first online workshop. And I've been contracted with a couple of places to do online workshops for them. And I also do therapy online and I've done trainings online. So, now I've had this experience of like, Oh, we can still create a container. It's different. I'm not going to lie. It is different. And I can also reach more people. So I've got a lot of learning to do a lot of catching up to do. I got contracted with another great local business. If I can give a shout out, Envive, it's two women own it and they really focus on helping local, small business owners develop their businesses and they support the local community, and addiction and recovery community in so many ways. So they're amazing. They contracted me to do a workshop with them. And they had this team of people that is amazing that supported it. So I just got to show up and do my thing. And that was like, just such a beautiful, different experience than when I just do them on my own. I still prefer in person. And I also like, like, I have food, I have coffee, I have tea. Like, I like to be able to create this supportive environment where I do what I wish I had. So whenever you go to a workshop and it's like, really, there's not even water. Like what? So I provide all these things that I couldn't if they were at home. I like to be hospitable, I guess is maybe the term.

Think it's really neat that you keep coming back to that, that you're creating the things that you wish that you had or that you weren't able to experience. Coming back to your point of community, and being in relationship and being able to support and collaborate and do really cool things because of it.

Yeah, I'm huge on community and that's another thing where it's like I need community, so I do what I can to create community.

Along with your CEU trainings, you've created an excellent resource called the Ethical Provider Collective. It's a monthly drop in Zoom session aimed at reducing burnout, addressing ethical dilemmas, and fostering meaningful connection among fellow providers with a focus on ethics, supervision, and cultural humility. It's free to attend, but you also offer one CEU per meeting, at a rate of $25 plus state tax, if anybody is interested in that. Can you share a little bit more about the Ethical Provider Collective with us?

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for asking about it. So what it was birthed out of was people reaching out to me for supervision and consultation. And I just don't have the time to meet with everybody that was asking. And also seeing providers struggling with being able to have access to groups and communities where they could get some extra support and supervision that was affordable, because it can cost money if you don't have supervision at your place of employment. It serves so many purposes. So with my own workshops oftentimes people have follow up questions or they want to talk about something more. So now, if that's the case, you can drop in once a month and we can talk about whatever follow up questions that you have from one of my workshops. If you haven't been to my workshops, you can come in and get support and get to know other providers as well. And I guess my belief that it decreases burnout is the more supported we are in the community, the less alone we feel, the less we're burnt out and just feel so isolated, which it can really feel that way, even particularly in private practice. So that's what brought it about was my desire to be able to be accessible to people who have questions after my workshops, accessible supervision for people who might not even know me to be able to drop in and also benefit from a community.

You're creating different parts of your sales funnel. So you're allowing people to get to know you a little bit better and potentially take a training from you afterward. When women have access to resource and money and finance, we really do tend to invest it back in our communities. And we can vote with our dollars. This is one of the reasons that I see a lot of clinicians wanting to provide CEUs. And yet we're in a field that we, you know, we don't want to feel salesy, or we don't want to feel pushy and, yet, being seen and having a pay me now button can be really important to continuing our work, to reducing burnout. So it's just neat to kind of see that from the business side, what you've naturally created and you've brought into this, that is working for you.

Yeah. Thank you. And I can't say that isn't part of the hope, right? That people come, they meet me, they want to take my workshops and they sign up. That would be excellent. And it's so challenging. This is one of my struggles that I've been working on too, is, is that business side, the advertising, the charging, like my husband jokes with me and he's like, you give away too much for free. And it's challenging for me to find that balance. Because my inclination is if I can do it, I'm just going to do it. And if something comes out of it, great. If nothing comes out of it, okay. And I hope something comes out of it. I'm not immune from the capitalistic system that I live in and needing to make a living and keep all this going. And it's, it's a really challenging point for me. I'm experimenting with this social justice model the green bottle method and how I charge. So there's three different categories that you get to choose which one you fall into for my actual workshops. Trying to find ways that I feel good about in line with my values and my belief in access and make money is a learning curve for me. These are the things that I'm kind of working on is like using a social justice model for a sliding scale, not giving away all the seats, which is something that I've done before. Finding those balances is challenging. And I was just actually thinking about this this morning when I was getting ready to come to work that like I've got, I give spots away in my workshop. So I will give myself the boundary of only having one scholarship spot for the in person ones and two for the ones online. Let's see if I can stick with it this year.

I so appreciate your authenticity and your genuineness and your realness with that.

Absolutely. Right. And I'm getting more effective at it. Like I'm more willing to ask for more when I see how long it takes me to create a workshop and, that's something people should know. It's like the amount of time and energy that goes on the backend to produce like a three hour or one day or two day. It takes a minute to make a profit. Right. So, I think it's like a word of caution to people who want to do this. Just know that there's a lot of front end work. And, the funding piece is something that I struggle with. Cause again, I see these larger Practices able to have the resources and time to put into getting funding that I don't have. I haven't figured out how to also be able to do that. Or when I talk to different funding sources in New Mexico they're going with this person or these people or this agency that has well known and really popular and everybody knows who they are. Like, I totally get it and how I'm learning, how do I also get to go in that way. And one of the beautiful things about it is when I'm seeing these agencies that get the funding, I know them like they started as one or two people businesses. So that tells me if they figure this out, there is a way. I just haven't figured out my way yet. So that's hopeful.

The mission and the values that surround the creation of this podcast was let's spotlight some of the people that are doing incredible work that maybe we are kind of one, two person businesses. But we have goals. We're on our way somewhere. So many of us clinicians are trying to figure out, how do we add additional income streams? What does it look like for us to market? How do we learn the business aspect of this? Because that is very different than providing therapy.

When I look back at the first workshops I created, like at the time I was like, Oh, this is pretty good. And now I'm like, Ooh, like, so there's a natural process that I have learned and become more effective and skillful at while doing it. So it's like not waiting until I have it figured out to do it. It's like do it and I'll figure it out as I go. And I think that's part of the privilege of ADD is like, I jump and I land somewhere and I figure it out. Doesn't always work out. What does happen is I learn more skills and I keep progressing and now when I look at a workshop that I present today versus one that I did like seven or eight years ago, it's like, okay, I can see how far and how and like my learning. I think that's important to like if we wait until we get it right or perfectly, we're not going to get anything done.

You don't have to get it right, you just have to get it going.

Yes, the change and growth happens in the 1%. It's not this zero to a hundred that, sometimes we mistake it for or people want. It's just 1% of change a day, and that comes from Atomic Habits. Just to put that out there, that's a great book. But like he talks about that 1% just make a 1% change in the day and that's going to change your entire trajectory. And it's scary and it's hard and it's not easy. So just know that if it's scary, hard and not easy, it probably means you're doing it right.

In OCD and anxiety treatment, so much of what I work with my clients on is embracing the uncertainty. We don't know how it will happen. And yet if it's in alignment with our values and it's something that we want to pursue, we're gonna do it scared, and that might not be our favorite. We might have to accept that we feel really icky when we're doing this. And yet we can still push forward and it can get easier over time.

Yeah that was the other thing I wanted to mention, the values. It's like suffering comes from living against our values. So if somebody's watching this or listening to this and you're not maybe certain what your values are, like there are places to participate in figuring that out for yourself. Like when I was putting a needle in my arm, that was going against all my values and my suffering was great. So living in accordance to our values makes the hard things a little bit more like you're willing to do it. And our suffering decreases. Can I tolerate the pain of the moment, the discomfort of the moment in exchange for a decrease in my suffering? Or am I going to not do whatever I have to do to avoid that pain and it increases my suffering? And it's a skill. It's a skill like anything else. So if people don't know how to do it, there's no shame. It's just, you haven't had an opportunity. So how do you learn how to tolerate discomfort is such a huge part of it. And Certainty Principle. Love it. I'm a certified brain spotting therapist. I'm really passionate about it. And I'm going to be starting my CIT, which is a different process of training in that area. And it's all based on the uncertainty principle.

Like you said, even CEU trainings can take some time to get through from beginning to the end, to marketing, to putting it out there. And so how do you keep showing up? Even when it's scary.

Even when you get a bad review. You're not sure you know what you're doing or it's even successful. Are you giving half the seats away for free? Like, it's like, you just, if it's something that's important, you just keep going. And if it's not that important, let it go and go try something else you know?

And you bring up a good point. We will get bad reviews. We will, they're out there statistically. They're gonna happen. Somebody's not gonna like something. And, it's okay, right? It does, it hurts. It stings a little bit. That's where support comes in, community. It's funny, my most recent training that I did, one of the reviews was, the training materials don't look as professional. I'm like, I've never gotten this one before. So I look back and I'm like, I can see that. I can see where I can improve here. Okay. And I have a lot of hope because if you look at Facebook's original page that they first created. It does not look good. It is. It's really basic and plain. And I'm like, if Facebook can do it, why not us? Thank you very much.

Absolutely. And look back at one of your first trainings and it'll give you like a little bit of like, Oh, wow. Okay. I've come a far way. Yeah. And those reviews are like, I look at all of them and like, sometimes they're really valid points. I'm like, Oh, wow. Man, thank you. I'm going to take this into consideration. And sometimes it's, you know, I see that I'm just not your cup of tea and I'm not going to change how I do this.

That is so important as well. Being able to not just take it at, you know, because you've said this now I'm going to, I have to change everything. Because there are going to be people that just don't agree with us, and that's okay, that's okay. Not comfortable. I don't have to like it, I can have feelings about it. And we can still show up for our next training, because somebody out there needs to hear it.

It's like getting comfortable with the uncomfortability.

Absolutely. And like you said, it's a skill. It's such an honor to have you here. This is newer for both of us but here we are doing it. Showing up despite the discomfort and being willing to be seen, so that way we can make a bigger impact.

And I just want to say thank you because what an opportunity. Hopefully people learn more about me and see what I'm doing and want to like come and hang out either at the Ethical Provider Collective or one of my workshops. So I'm really super appreciative.

So where can we find you online?

So my website is IntentionalPathCounseling.Com

For those of you who are interested in learning more about Vanya, her CEU trainings, and the Ethical Provider Collective, we will link in the description below to all of her resources, to her website. So again, Vanya, thank you so much for your time and for being here and embracing discomfort with me and doing something new and also being seen. I hope that this brings lots of success for you.

Thank you so much. What a privilege and honor for me as well.