Did you know that the price of houses in Canada

has doubled in the last decade?

And what's that got to do with public transportation?

We'll answer those questions on today's episode of Transit Unplugged.

I'm Paul Comfort, and Marco D'Angelo, the CEO of the Canadian Urban Transit

Association spoke with me about this housing study and the conference that we

were at recently in Edmonton, the CU TA in an in person interview we conducted there.

This I think you'll find fascinating to see the role of housing and public

transportation and the interplay between them on this interview.

I also had the opportunity to speak in person with Mike Bismeyer who

you may have heard many times on our podcast over the last couple years

talking about kindness and mentorship.

He and I got to speak on that topic together at the CUTA Conference in

Edmonton and he shares a few thoughts on the subject and kind of how he got started

on this as a young person being bullied.

At an interview I conducted with him on the trade show

floor of the CUDA conference.

This is the first of three episodes of Transit Unplugged, which were

conducted at the CUTA conference.

Next week, we'll have Eddie Robar, the deputy city manager of Edmonton and

Carrie Hotten McDonald, the manager of Edmonton Transit, talking about

hydrogen power, their large battery electric bus garage there, and much more.

And the following week.

We interview Arthur Nicolette, CEO of Transdev Canada, one of the largest

contractors there in the nation.

Now, it's time for our interview with Marco D'Angelo, talking about

the CUTA conference and housing.

Great to be at the CUTA conference here in Edmonton, Canada, the Canadian

Urban Transit Association, their big conference, and excited to have the CEO

with me, my good friend, Marco D'Angelo.

Thanks for being back with us.

Marco D'Angelo: My pleasure, Paul.

Nice to see you.

Thanks for making the trip up here.

Yeah, awesome.

I love, Edmonton's a cool city, right?

We've always heard about it.

I've always heard about Edmonton Oilers and Wayne Gretzky, the kid here.

This is, like they said, the most populous city, right, above the highest...

Over a million people, latitude wise?

Marco D'Angelo: Certainly in the northern hemisphere.

I mean, I'm trying to think of, you know, what, where Moscow is on that.

Yeah, oh no, I think it's in the western hemisphere.

Marco D'Angelo: In the western hemisphere.

So it's a big city.

Yes.

I didn't know what to expect when I got here, but great to be here.

You've got a big audience here, nice crowd.

Yes.

Tell us about the conference here, the CUTA conference.

Marco D'Angelo: Uh, well, it's our annual conference.

We, uh, we hold two per year, and this one is, uh, special because it also includes

a large, uh, transit, uh, expo and trade show, and that'll be coming up tomorrow.

That's good.

And you had a youth summit.

Tell us about that.

I got the.

I didn't speak at that the other day.

It was fun.

Marco D'Angelo: Oh, that's great to hear.

It was our 7th Youth Summit on Sustainable Urban Transportation and it was hosted

at McEwen University just down the road from us here at the conference.

Very happy to bring together 60, 65 youth from across Canada, every

region of the country, to learn about, uh, about sustainability.

Urban planning and meeting and networking with professionals and finding

out about the careers of tomorrow.

In fact, it's the 20th anniversary of the first Youth Summit way back in 2004.

I was lucky enough to be, uh, helping to organize that.

So 20 years later, it's a really great...

It's a great thing to, uh, to see a full generation of people

that attended that youth summit.

Our first vice chair at CUTA and the General Manager of Halifax

Transit, Dave Riege, he also attended that first youth summit.

So really, there's a lot of, uh, a lot of knowledge and we've

really benefited from engaging youth, uh, over the last 20 years.

That's great.

And we need more young people getting into industry, don't we?

Marco D'Angelo: We certainly do.

Like, uh, like every other industry, there's, uh, there's,

there's competing, uh, job market.

We are looking to diversify and build the workforce that we have for public transit.

And so having transit and the careers that support it be a choice for folks that are,

uh, going through, their education and offering mentorships and apprenticeships

and bringing in engineers and training.

These are many of the different ways in Canada that we are engaging with

young people to invite them and choose transit as a career path for them.

Let's talk about CUTA a little bit more so.

For those in America, people are familiar with APTA, and they may not

be as familiar with CUTA, but you're very similar organizations, right?

You just represent Canada.

Marco D'Angelo: Yes, very similar indeed.

representing manufacturers, local transit agencies, the businesses

that support them, and governments and associations across the country

that share similar values to us.

So very much like the American Public Transit Association.

And what are you working on lately?

Marco D'Angelo: We've been working on a few things.

We've been working on...

on a new housing report that was released last month.

And housing affordability is a little bit different than in the United States.

Over the last decade, house prices have doubled in Canada.

Doubled?

Doubled.

And so it's a bit different than in the United States where it's been, it has been

increasing, but at a more gradual pace.

And this has led to quite a bit of inflation in Canada.

So as, you know, interest rates have been going up in Canada and the United States,

It's risen actually more in Canada to try to, uh, to cool down the economy and cap

fast rising home prices and that's making, uh, life less and less affordable for

many Canadians and this is why we think it's really the time to present transit

as an answer, to helping Canadian families coming out of the pandemic, being able

to afford the lifestyle that they need, uh, for themselves and their families.

Wow, that's awesome.

So tell me about, you did the study, it came out, what were the findings?

Marco D'Angelo: Well, the findings were that we need to activate land.

And so what that means is as capital projects are being built across the

country, and we're very happy with the progress that we're making in building

those, it's also very important that people who need to take transit and

choose to take transit have affordable housing options that are near these great

infrastructures that we're building.

And so ensuring that there is affordability.

ensuring that there's percentages of, uh, rental units that are

being built, densifying around these transit hubs, around the hubs

through transit oriented development, even on top of transit stations.

We see that in, uh, in leading areas like in Vancouver

certainly has been doing that.

Oh yeah, Kevin showed me one of those when I was there.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah, where you'd have, uh, basically a transit station that, that goes

down into a metro, and above it would be, you know, an apartment tower or

other, uh, retail infrastructure.

And it really, these are what the most dense cities around the world do that

have the highest modal shares for transit.

Thinking about places like Singapore, where college and university campuses

are a station onto themselves.

And it's really a, uh, a way to, to move people around, to reduce congestion.

To meet the greenhouse gas emissions target that Canada has, and also

to provide equity, for people that are, uh, on modest, uh, incomes to

participate in their community fully.

Right, that makes sense.

I thought it was interesting that the morning session this morning, you...

Uh, Carrie Houghton McDonald, the CEO of the local transit

system in Edmonton, interviewed a couple of city council people.

And one of the guys was talking about how that, you know, our zoning rules and

regulations really have a big determining factor on the affordability of housing.

We've got to let people build smaller units and...

So this is kind of what you're talking about, right?

Changing policy.

Marco D'Angelo: It is, and it's been, uh, moving across the country.

So even, uh, another city, the city of Ottawa, on a building lot, you

can now build up to four units, uh, where that wouldn't typically have

been a single, family neighborhood.

Yeah.

An example in the US of course, is the state of California.

Okay.

Um, where, zoning is, has been open more broadly so that mul, it's easier to build

multi-residential units on a plot of land.

Now, you think about Canada, Canada has a lot of land.

Yeah, you do.

We do, and we've got good infrastructure that connects it.

But where, where the rubber hits the road is in providing, an

affordable lifestyle for Canadians.

And that means...

uh, using the land that we have in our urban communities more effectively,

more efficiently, and that helps people to maybe have one car instead

of two cars or shortens commutes, more time with, with loved ones, uh,

and so these are the things that, as ridership has been returning.

We're very happy that we're building these capital projects for tomorrow as well.

Because we have a country of about 40 million people, but we

estimate our transit infrastructure is built for 25 million people.

Interesting.

Alright, what's number two on your list?

. Marco D'Angelo: In terms of, uh, our housing, uh, report, part of it, we deal

with streamlining the approval process.

And so that means prioritizing transit oriented development applications.

Oh, yeah.

The amount of time it takes to get simple things like a building permit,

we've gotta bring those times down.

And that's something that's within a municipality's jurisdiction in Canada.

And that is, uh, presenting the plan, having it reviewed, a notice period, then

there would be a variance type of meeting, uh, with it within the municipality

where your neighbours would, uh, be able to comment and, and so these processes

and then inspection after the fact, it really adds on quite a lot of time.

So if you're building something as simple as an in law suite, or

building a me a small house...

on an existing property, the length of time that it takes for

those small projects is very long.

Now, scale that up to a large project, maybe a tower, replacing four single

family homes, and you're going to build a 30 unit rental housing project.

And so that could take up to a year.

To get those, to get those, permits.

And so we want to streamline that.

Yeah.

And then also make sure that we've got, the folks that do the actual construction.

And so that gets back into, into the trades.

And we, we heard today about that, uh, we have a shortage,

in our trades in Canada as well.

So there's a number of things that are hindering us to, uh,

finding a way to provide affordable housing to more Canadians.

That's awesome.

Keep going.

This is really interesting to me.

But you don't think about this as the purview of transit agencies,

but it really does impact our riders and what they do, so what's another

recommendation from the study?

Marco D'Angelo: Yeah, I would say that it's evolving the

mandate of transit authorities.

And let me, uh, an example that, uh, is in the report.

Uh, back in 2020, the city of Saskatoon met, created a target of, uh, 50 percent

of new housing be infill development.

And so what that means is, um, building your neighborhood more densely.

So in the city of Saskatoon, uh, one of their major projects is to create a bus

rapid transit system and many cities across the prairies have been doing that.

Uh, cities, uh, that are from 300 to 600, 000, I'm sure there's a.

dozens of parallels in the United States, uh, that are, that are brought

in these bus rapid transit corridors.

And evolving a transit agency's mandate from a Canadian perspective would be

not just building the transit within a corridor, it would be evolving to manage

that land, uh, so that, uh, housing can be built at the same time as transit.

So, that way, when a BRT or another capital project opens,

You, right away, you have ridership that's ready to use that service.

Oh, yeah.

So, it helps to drive ridership and it helps to, also, connect people with

their communities, uh, more easily.

These are great housing recommendations coming from CUTA.

Do you have one more you'd like to share?

Marco D'Angelo: Yeah, one more.

It's a, it's a location efficient mortgage.

And so what that means is typically when a prospective homebuyer goes to their bank

to, um, to borrow, to buy a house, the presumption is, is that homeowner also is

buying a car or has a car, will buy a car.

Okay.

And so that occupies some amount of their credit and a location efficient mortgage.

Because it'll be within a transit oriented community or development, it likely

wouldn't have a parking spot, that way your debt ratio would seem lower and

that would mean you'd be able to benefit perhaps from a slightly lower rate.

Or be able to manage a slightly more expensive home because you wouldn't

have payments associated, uh, with a car and the, and the things that come

with a car, uh, and so we think that's another way to help, especially first

time homebuyers enter the market.

So what do you do with the study now?

Are you going to take it to your legislature?

Can you talk about that?

Marco D'Angelo: Yes, certainly.

It's one of the messages that we've brought to our federal government.

In fact, it was launched in Ottawa, on Parliament Hill, so right

where the House of Commons meets.

Oh, wow.

We were happy to be there.

You, like, released this study there?

Marco D'Angelo: We released the study, right in the House of Commons, actually.

Yeah, it was, uh, one funny thing was, we booked a press conference

room, and immediately before us was the Federal Minister of Housing

holding a press conference on the need to have more affordable housing.

And so it was meant to be on some level.

You feel like you're making progress with it?

Are they taking these recommendations and considering them?

Marco D'Angelo: We do.

We believe so.

And, you know, we need to build about three and a half million

additional homes by the year 2030.

And that's just to maintain affordability for...

For Canadians, but also we're welcoming about half a million new

people to our country, every year.

And so we need homes and, uh, and jobs and opportunities.

And so we're making headway on that front.

By bringing and welcoming half a million new Canadians, traffic is also a problem.

And so building these homes...

We need to make sure that the neighborhoods where the homes

are being built aren't designed for the single occupancy vehicle.

That we have transit for them on day one.

That also means returning to the question of operating dollars.

And so Canadian transit systems, we're at capacity in many of our cities,

especially in the suburbs around our largest cities, like the greater

Toronto area, the greater Montreal area.

But the farebox revenue alone isn't...

isn't able to keep up with the growing need for transit and the

need for more transit and options uh, around these big cities.

And so federal government decision makers are listening.

At the provincial level, they're listening too.

And we work, of course, all the time with, with city councils across Canada that work

really directly with transit authorities.

Wow.

These are great recommendations, Marco.

So, where can somebody find it?

It's online at your website?

Marco D'Angelo: It is.

So it's online on the Canadian Urban Transit Association website.

C U T A A C T U dot C A.

So last question then is.

What's coming?

What do you see coming over the horizon, you know, for 2024 and beyond?

Well, 2024, we think, will be an exciting year.

Ridership has been returning across the country.

We see a lot of new opportunities to engage with the public.

We've opened a, Rail line around Montreal that it's owned by the public pension fund

called the REM and so when it's complete there will be about 50 stations creating

a loop around the greater Montreal area.

That's very exciting and it's coming online.

There's exciting projects in each region of the country to

move towards electrification.

Greening our fleets and finding ways through housing and densification, so that

collectively these measures can help to tackle the 25 percent of greenhouse gas

emissions, or GHGs, that Canada emits.

And so that's one quarter, and if we can put a good dent into that, we'll

be more on our way to meeting the climate targets that Canada has set.

Wow, that's great.

Well, great talking to you today, Marco.

Great conference.

Uh, you've got wonderful transit in this country, and I'm looking

forward to seeing what comes next.

Marco D'Angelo: Thank you very much, Paul.

I'm with Mike Bismeyer.

Mike, is, uh, Mike, great to be with you here on the, uh,

on the show floor of CUTA.

Well, thanks, Paul.

It's great to have the Transit Unplugged team up here in Canada.

We're super proud of our annual fall conference, and on behalf of CUTA and the

business members, I'd like to thank you for taking the time to walk around all the

booths and, uh, see all the new, uh, you know, exciting technology, and to, just

to get to know our members here in Canada.

I hope Edmonton's been treating you well.

It has been a lot.

You know, I think our listeners will recognize your voice from the times

you talk about kindness and mentorship.

You and I had the opportunity to do a big talk on the main stage on that this week.

Yeah, it's been fantastic.

It's been an exciting show.

I mean, obviously, I'm heavily involved with the Young Emerging Leaders or Young

Leaders Summit that we had ahead of CUTA.

And, uh, it was great to have you invited in to speak to

those, uh, leaders on Sunday.

I had the opportunity to speak there as well.

And then, obviously, rolling straight into CUTA, it's been a busy time,

and, yeah, we did the opening session Monday morning, which was

fantastic, a pleasure to be with you.

But, yeah, it's great to be in front of our peers here.

It's exciting.

And, and for those that don't know, this is only our second trade show in Canada

since COVID and things got back together.

So really good attendance.

People are excited to be out and about and talking to their peers.

You know, Mike, you are one of the foremost advocates for kindness

in our industry, and it's great to have you on our show talking about that, but

I'm always struck by the story that you told with me on stage the other day about

what got you really understanding the importance of kindness, because you had

a moment early in your life Where someone was kind to you when you really needed it.

Yeah, that's right.

I mean, uh, and for those, you know, I, I always advocate about kindness

and I am passionate about it.

It's sort of a trait that runs in my family.

I'm very fortunate.

But yeah, I mean, uh, and people have probably heard the story before

and, and pleased to reach out to me.

I'm happy to talk about it.

I, I, I keynote on it very often, but I was bullied.

I had a year of school that was, was really not pleasant for me.

Uh, and it was a random act of kindness that just changed my perspective on

understanding that people were noticing things weren't right, and it happened on

a school bus, which is maybe apropos, it was on a, on a mode of transportation, so.

You know, and someone stepped up, what I call as an upstander,

you know, they reached out.

Tell us that story a little bit.

Yeah, I was a young kid and, and, you know, I was a little bit overweight

and my wonderful mom just kept saying, you know, you hadn't hit your growing

spurt, but, uh, what really what was happening to me is, you know, I, I had

a bus stop that was a few blocks from my house that I'd go to to catch the bus.

It was between grade eight and nine back in those days, junior, junior high school.

You know, I just happened to have a person that, uh, you know, uh,

decided to make my life not pleasant.

And, uh, you know, each day I'd show up at that bus stop and, You know, he'd

grab my lunch in front of others and just tear it away from me, throw it in

the garbage can, throw it on the floor.

And what would he say to you?

He'd make fun and say, you know, you don't need a meal today, you're fat enough.

Yeah, it's terrible.

Yeah, it's terrible, right?

And you know, we don't know.

For a young kid, man, that's going to affect you.

You know, we don't know the impact words have on people.

And you know, I internalized it for quite a while.

I didn't really tell my parents about it.

You know, but school was not pleasant.

You know, I went in at different exits at the school.

School, you know, I didn't want to, I did everything I could to not confront

those guys, which then takes away from the education that you're there to

learn about and your concentration.

And I will say this, as much as I had a bad year, I can't

imagine for kids nowadays.

Like, for me, the saving grace...

is when the bell went, it was over.

There was no communication, no cell phones, and now the

cyber bullying is non stop.

I can't imagine, yeah, so, I got on the bus one day, and unbeknownst to

me, this other, uh, other young student said to me, hey, you can sit with me,

and, you know, I, I didn't have a lot of trust with people at the time, not

outside of my group of friends, and, but I took the, I sat down, and, you

know, I was, I, literally, we pulled away from the bus stop, and he just

leaned over and said, you know, I got your back, and, uh, and I didn't know

this student, it was someone I didn't know, but, uh, Uh, I didn't know what he

meant by that, but he reached into his knapsack and had brought an extra lunch.

And, you know, first of all, it was a massive random act of kindness, really,

for someone else that was at a young age.

But they knew something wasn't right, and probably told their parents.

And it did two things, right?

It made me understand someone saw it.

You know, I finally had my little breakdown with my parents,

told them what was going on.

But, you know, it just made me think of things different, right?

And so, actually, you know, I came up with this idea.

I started bringing my sandwich in my pencil box and hiding it, and

I started to bring a dummy lunch.

And, uh, and the bully threw it away a few times and, uh,

and I wasn't reacting as much.

Oh, you didn't give him the payback he wanted.

He eventually moved on.

Yeah.

And unfortunately to someone else, but for me, you know, and, and so, you know.

But that put in your heart, you know, the importance of that, right?

Of stepping up for someone or, or, or pointing out the right thing or also

not being afraid to talk about it.

And that's really, I mean, communication is the key to everything we do in life.

Yeah.

Uh, and then, you know, I, uh, one of my early transit companies, I

was fortunate to be on the, um, the original panel people originated the

United to End Bullying Foundation.

Um, you know, we were in a town where there was a horrible bullying

incident where a young lady took her life, Amanda Todd, it's a story that's

viral and people can look that up.

But our office was located in the community and had a big impact.

We thought, like, what can we do to make a difference?

And at that time, we were selling a product into the school bus world.

And we started with a coloring contest and, and, uh, having an opportunity

for kids to win money for a grant at their school to spread kindness.

And it just grew and grew.

And when I left that company, you know, we were giving away 50, 000 a year in grants.

Wow.

A thousand, $2,000 chunks.

And I was so proud I became the spokesperson.

I'd go to the schools, give those help.

Yeah.

But it's very empowering to have kids talk about it.

And then I'd really like to thank Paul.

I know we've had a great rapport and you've become a

great mentor for me as well.

But I do want to say it's great to finally get you on this side of the border and,

you know, we don't want to let you go.

We want to keep Canadianizing you.

I know you got to go to a hockey game last night, which...

Really excited.

And we brought them good luck, I think.

We brought them good luck, yeah, and uh, you know, we're looking forward to it.

You know, for those that don't know, you know, we're, we

have two conferences a year.

The next one for us is the spring in Halifax.

Uh, that's our, you know, sort of our networking, uh, and session

event, which is usually a fantastic, Halifax is a wonderful place.

So, on behalf of all the Canadians, uh, thanks for, for coming here, and on

behalf of CUTA and the business members.

Thank you, Mike.

Hi, this is Tris Hussey editor of the transit unplugged podcast.

And thank you for listening to this week's show.

Special, thanks to our guests, Marco D'Angelo, and our regular

contributor, Mike Bismeyer.

Now coming up next week on the show, we're staying in Edmonton.

Where Paul is interviewing Eddie Robar, deputy city manager in

Edmonton and Carrie Hotten McDonald, who now runs Edmonton transit.

They're going to be talking about hydrogen powered buses.

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