Welcome to psychologically speaking with me,

Leela Ange. This is a podcast

all about human behaviour, weaving

together fascinating research, opinions and real

life experiences. I'll give you a psychologist's

insight into how we behave in spaces we live

and work in, and how they in turn shape

us. This season, we're exploring

my favourite topic, impostor phenomenon.

So get comfy and let's dive into today's

episode. Helen Hill

is a multi hyphen, an excitable jewel

business owner. she's the founder of Unlikely Genius, for

which she's an educator, illustrator and author of

the triple award winning book.

Falling off the Ladder.

Revamp your mindset and thrive in self

employment. Helen helps to develop

the sustainability and positive impact of

businesses, not just for the planet, but for

individuals working within it, because we're all

connected. Helen is also co founder of Be

the Future. This is an educational initiative that

aims to make sustainability playful. They

provide edutainment in the form of books, activity

books, games, resources, and a podcast to help ease

eco anxiety and encourage families

to take action one step at a time because small

ripples make big waves.

Helen and I chatted about the time.

She used clothing in a creative and playful

way. I really enjoyed talking to Helen about the

effect that stepping into a character had

on her confidence and business. Here's what she

had to say.

Hi, Helen. Hi. Thanks for being here this

morning.

Thanks for having me. Good to see you.

Would you just explain a little bit about who you

are and, I suppose in context of

what we're going to talk about, what that business is around

as well.

Yeah. So I'm a dual business owner. originally,

most people know me as unlikely genius, but

recently co founded be the Future with Sally

Giblin, who's over in Australia. And

we're all about helping families and educators

to teach young children about the climate crisis. But through

fun, storytelling, humor,

puns, getting a bit know, really

bringing the fun back into this thing because it's such a

serious topic, but we just believe that it doesn't have to be

taught that way.

And so I think this is where I did a double

take in an online community because I

was asking people, tell me about your experiences

of dressing up as part of your role.

And you came in with,

you know, last week when I was on the BBC

in a mermaid costume.

Was a bit of a mic drop moment where I went, whoa.

Tell me how that came to be and how you ended up on

a tv channel in a mermaid costume.

Gosh, honestly, it seems so

surreal now. but basically,

Sally and myself have written a book, and we'd created

an activity book and a game as well. So we're calling

it, like, an edutainment kit for parents and families. And

as part of the launch of that, ah, we'd hired

a pr company. So after

lots of back and forth, we decided that with the

whole thing of, like, the little mermaid coming out, the live

Disney, edition, that it would be really

good for us to connect to it in that way,

because, yes, could have dressed as a crab or

anemone. I did kind of offer that at one point that would have

been even more ridiculous, but we decided a mermaid

would be a really good idea and that it would be like we're

the mermaids coming from the oceans to tell the story of the

creatures, and we're going to take the hopes and dreams of the children

and the promises of action back to the creatures.

So, yeah, we decided we were going to be mermaids on a beach. And

then in our true kind of

giddy excitement that me and Sally get, we were like,

oh, it needs to be a really big mermaid. Like a

really long, because we were going to go for big play, big hopes,

big story time, right? We're going to be this big,

long mermaid. And then, oh, let's make it out of reclaimed

plastic. Yes. And

then we were originally going to get some

artists to create it. And then one day,

me and fella just went, with ourselves.

So 150 hours

each later, and we created a 13

foot long mermaid tail and

top and headpiece. And, yeah, not

surprisingly, when the PR company put it out to

sort of the press sources, the BBC

look north team snapped me up to go in and

sit under the very hot studio lights in

6 plastic, covered

in sand, flaking paint all over the chair. So they had to keep

sweeping it between practice runs.

I think they just think, what on earth were we doing now? And

Sally was live from Bondi beach on network ten in

Sydney. Wow.

So I'm interested then,

had you got the

press without the mermaid outfit, that

150 hours of reclaimed plastic

and ended up on the sofa,

what do you think you would have been feeling on the lead up to

appearing on tv? Just an ordinary press

piece.

Oh, I would have been terrified. I mean, I'm

someone that two years ago still, I didn't let

anyone take pictures of me. And I had my

first photo shoot for my business,

and I was terrified before that. And I went through the

usual things of I need to lose, like, eight storm before I can do this. And,

I don't want to see the picture then. I certainly don't want them out in the world

before I check them. There was a real

fear going on, and I still get that to an

extent. But I think that first photo shoot

I did had then, you know, this was

another level for me to sit on Runswick Bay in

east Yorkshire as a mermaid on,

rock, with kids around me, having a photo shoot,

reading the story to them with literally, like, there was a sort

of wall of rocks opposite and people were lining it,

watching what was going on.

Wow.

And I think there was

definitely something around the fact that

at least I was hiding behind the costume. People were looking at

the tail. Normally, if I was

having a photo shoot and anyone was stood watching, I would feel

I'd just be dying inside.

Quite a normal or usual feeling for people

to.

Know, and especially sometimes, especially on days where I'm not

feeling great, health wise and things like that, I really just don't

want to partake in such things. But,

yeah, it was a very surreal

experience. And I feel like with the BBC

thing, that when I

left, I couldn't remember a thing I'd said.

I had no idea how it had gone. My brain had just kind

of gone into some kind of autopilot,

knowing I had to try and get certain facts in

and certain things I had to say.

And I managed it.

My pr woman was thrilled with it that was there, and

the producer was really happy and everything. But I couldn't tell you what I

said. I just went into some kind of outer body.

It sounds like a fascinating kind of

thing to have happened. And I suppose

the interesting thing for me is, how would you feel now, say,

if somebody phoned you up and said, can we have you on our sofa,

but can you leave the mermaid at home? How would

you feel about that now?

Yeah, I wouldn't be as comfortable with that. I feel

like there's definitely

something with me, I think, around your body

image and all of that, and I think I would be so self conscious of that

without having this

costume to hide behind, because

you're almost becoming a character. You're almost

mean. Our favorite saying at the moment between me and

Sally is all shame has left the building. So

it kind of helps us just step in, because Sally's

equally.

She has health issues and things, and the way it's

affected her. She's very

paranoid, self conscious about

photographs and stuff as well. So

she had a big wig on and all sorts, and she felt better

hiding behind a big rainbow wig and that kind of stuff.

so I think both of us would feel very

exposed to do it as just us.

Wow. And what's that

experience left you with? Knowing that, I mean, you're sitting

here being quite honest and going, yeah, I think

this is a self, image thing. It's

definitely easy to hide behind a costume. But

reflecting on that, what was that experience giving you

as a business owner? And I suppose a lot of the work you're doing as well

is supporting and lifting up other people, isn't

it? You do a mentoring role that we talked about earlier.

So how's that experience making you feel?

Yeah, I do a lot of mentoring and business

coaching and things like, that. And it is

quite funny how when I'm doing that stuff, I find it natural to

try and lift the other people up and build their, confidence. And I'm

very aware of in my head saying, you're

such a hypocrite, because it is that typical thing of,

like, we know what we should be doing and you don't do it yourself, but you can tell

others.

It's definitely given me a confidence boost, I think,

to really make me realize that I can do

something so far out of my comfort zone

that I think I would have refused

to do it a couple of years ago.

And the funny thing is that for

a long time people have said to me, you're so confident.

You're so confident. And I just keep saying, like,

no, I have days where I can appear

confident and funny. Ah,

enough. I had a conversation with someone about this lately about what

my perception is of how

people see me versus how other people are seeing me as

like, this person that's really successful

and really going for this, that and the other. And I'm like, I don't

know. There's an element of me that just throws

myself into things because I know if I thought about it too

much, I wouldn't do it. and I think

that is very much the case with things like this, that if I'd thought about

that and it hadn't been right, the BBC want you

on tomorrow. M I would have

overthought that for like a week if I'd had more time

not done it. So I do believe

there's that element of like, that I think has worked really well for

me and I need to keep up, of kind of keep

pushing myself and just putting myself forward for things that are way out

of my boundaries and my comfort zone and

just the stuff that comes

from it is great. And

you can sit there and you can think, oh, I'd love to do

that one day. I'd love to do x. But

unless you put yourself forward, it's not actually ever going to

happen, is it? And what's the worst that can happen? Someone says no, or not

yet, or you've not got enough experience. Right, great. Then try it

again. But at least you know you've tried.

And I mean, this is why I've got a TED talk

in the mermaid outfit in.

Wow.

Wow. So you're recording that in October?

Yes.

Wonderful. And so that's going to be out there, on YouTube

forever, right? In a mermaid

costume. I just think it's amazing.

I just found it really intriguing what you'd done and so

curious because in the impostor phenomenon

research, it was really evident that women

have, a whole host of safety behaviors to

prevent themselves putting themselves out

there. That thing you said, which is, I don't want to be the center of

attention, so if I was doing a normal photo shoot, I wouldn't want

people looking. And yet

there's these really intriguing coping mechanisms that

come through that are very creative, that are very kind of

full of that entrepreneurial flair, which is. But I'll

do it in a big costume that I've made that takes me

150 hours. And I just

find that so interesting as a psychologist to kind of

go, well, isn't it great that we can move from safety

behavior to really

coping? And, that energy, I think,

that you've put into this and how it's kind of come out has been

interesting. On the overthinking

thing, we know that happens. I mean, that

is a key tenet of impostor,

when that overthinking comes in, and perhaps there is something

around those last minute journal requests or

pr things where perhaps they know that in tv.

That's why I had to go once, and it was very much,

can you get here in an hour? Maybe

they know that kind of nervousness creeps

in.

Yeah, very much so. I think the

really interesting thing about this as well has been that it's

actually pivoted our, plan quite a lot.

So obviously we had the book, the gain activity book. We were

launching a Kickstarter. This was what it was all about. And

the tail actually took on a life of its own. And almost the

Kickstarter wasn't even getting mentioned. But

in the process of that, new

opportunities came forward for funding, and we actually

pulled the Kickstarter a couple of weeks later because we

decided that actually the model we

were going for wasn't right. And this is where the entrepreneurial

thing comes in. As much as I always hate to call myself that,

we recognize that actually these new

opportunities would help us reach more families quicker and at the

cost of corporates rather than the families.

So we've canceled the kickstarter, and we're going down that

route. Wonderful. You've

got to be able to flex like that. And I think

if we hadn't pushed ourselves

and done this ridiculous thing,

this opportunity wouldn't have happened, and we'd still be trying

desperately to play forward with the model that wasn't really

right at this time. In a cost of living crisis and

all of that kind of stuff, Sally

was in an accelerator, and we really had our hopes that she

was going to win and win this $50,000 because she's

not over in Australia. and she didn't get it. And we were

so gutted for, like, a day, and then it

sparked a new idea, which actually is going to

fit perfectly with the new funding.

You know, we've just had to pivot massively,

and I feel like

this outfit and this Persona and this thing just

gave us that kind of attitude of,

okay, well, let's just do it. Let's just try it,

because this feels

right, and it feels better. and I think

if she won that accelerator

scheme and things, we'd have still been playing again

ahead with the way we were going. So we're seeing it as the best

thing that happened to us, that we didn't win that.

So it's really interesting, because, obviously, the thing that

triggered you dressing up came from

that internal self esteem,

and it was very much, how can I put on a

costume and get myself out there and make

that, confidence come alive for me

when I need it? But then something psychological has

happened in return, and we call this enclosed

cognition. So, this

is one study that was done back in 2012, and it

was, a group of graduates in

America, and they split this group

up, and they put half of them in lab coats and half of them not. And

the group that were in the lab coats behaved and performed

more as, scientists than the ones without. And there's been

a matter in of studies since then, so

we're beginning to see that actually the clothes

do make the man or the woman, because when we put clothes

on, we are able to step into those

identities. Interestingly enough, the

online world, we've got, a phrase for this. It's called the

proteus effect, where your avatar or the

image that you put out or your brand can help

you behave in a certain way in online gaming

spaces, that kind of thing. So it makes a lot of sense

to me that actually you've put on a costume and actually that

costume then fueled you and kind of taken

you off in a different direction. I

think this is why I was so excited to speak to you, because it's just a

real living example of how a very

extreme identity

has kind of taken you off in a different place and

really successfully as well.

Yeah. And I think the interesting thing, actually, is

that I've also been dressing

differently in normal life,

and I think I'd had little nuggets of that

beforehand, but I think

I'm doing it a lot more now. I mean, even the necklace I've got

on now with all this rainbow and stuff, it's because of our rainbow

branding. I have very aware

that dressing in more color is

great for me. I'm standing here in a black t shirt right now,

but the rainbow necklace. But,

I've actually been trying clothes that I wouldn't ordinarily

have worn beforehand. And

I think, like I said, this had started a while back, but even down

to a pair, of what are probably ill advised

unarees to nick someone else's frame

recently. And, sort of just more

patterns, more brighter colors, sort of bigger,

looser tops, whereas I used to wear quite fitted stuff.

And, yeah, I think it might also be

the midlife crisis of having just turned 40 and things

like that. I think there's been a combination of things that have gone

on, but there is something

in that, actually, of reaching that age and just going, yeah, ah, don't care

anymore. But, yeah, it's quite nice that it's

evolved and I'm starting to wear clothes that I've seen other people wear

and thought, oh, I want to wear something like that, and I

never have.

Yeah, I like this playfulness that you've got around the

clothing. I think there's a real intrigue for you at the moment,

having done something so outrageous. And, then

it's almost like your brain's gone, well, why not? And let's see

how this goes. And I think this is really indicative

of some of the impostor conversations I've had

that it's taken something really nervy,

gutsy, and that kind of coping mechanism

to do it in a different way, to realize it's okay. It's

okay to do something in a different way. You don't have to hide

away, but you can do things on your own terms, and then

look what happens as a result of it. It's really

fascinating. But I'm interested because you're saying you

feel different. What kind of different do you feel? I

mean, apart from the appetite to try different things. But how is

it making you feel different?

I think there's definitely something going on in my

head of caring less about what other people think.

I mean, it's quite a funny dynamic in our house because my other half, we

joke about how his wardrobe is exclusively, like, black,

gray, blue, very

ordinary, kind of, and that's

his stat. And I couldn't be more different at the moment, and I

think certain things that I know I won't be able to wear with him because he will

walk down the street with me.

But

there's definitely something about not

caring as much what people think about my size, my

weight, things like that. Don't get me wrong. It's still there, but

it's less than it was. And I did, a couple of

years ago, take up weightlifting, which really helped with that as well, because I

was at least a bit more toned and stronger and feeling healthier.

But also I think I've, realized how much

wearing certain things can just make me feel a lot more confident,

I think even, like, even though it's like, a black t

shirt, this is one that's got. It's a BBC

earth one. It's got about plastics in the oceans on the back and stuff, and

even just things like that, where it's, like, part of our message and

it's something I care about. I like having stuff like

that as well.

It probably feels really congruent to your messages, doesn't

it? And that whole kind of feeling comfortable in

your skin is coming through, because it's like, well, this

is me. This is what I stand for, and it's what my business stands

for. So, I think just to sum up, really what

I'm taking from this is that

it's okay to kind of do something a bit

different. Standing out and

hiding behind, if you like, a costume or an

outfit. It doesn't necessarily have to be seen as

something that we shouldn't do as owners.

Actually, it's been a massive springboard for you, and

there may be some residual benefits that come further down

the line, which is what I'm hearing from you is, know, look

at the kind of appetite I've got to try

new things.

Yeah. And you know what? It's made me meet so

many new people because I'm now Helen the

mermaid, and, I've done quite a lot of events over the

last few weeks and people are just fascinated to talk to me. It's

made loads of new connections for all kinds of things, not

just to be the future link. The really

heartwarming thing as well is the support from others. Don't get me wrong,

I've had a couple of trolls, but at the same

time it's that real focus on

actually the amount of people who have been incredible in

this whole thing with our Kickstarter

pivoting in just supporting us and

cheerleading us to do it. And even a

guy's had Sally's mermaid tail on. Over in

Australia, the founder of Sebin,

who was also doing a kickstarter, he's been dressed

on Sydney opera house steps with a sign saying

mermaids not microplastics, chest out,

plastic tail, mermaid.

And it's things like that. And I had a young boy,

of all the people at a two day event last week. It was a young

boy that came up and said, can I try this,

on? And I thought, yeah, come on, let's get it on

you. And he just stood there wishing, I've had a drag queen

dressed in it. I've had a student at Manchester, he met uni

who just stood there and went, oh my God, I feel so pretty.

And it's been that, that's been really

nice as well. So it's not just me that kind of

really taken this on and had that moment of just something

else. And yeah, it was so funny to see.

It's been fascinating to hear about it. It's such

a lovely story and I think this is one of those

experiences that probably happens once every couple of

years. And I'm so privileged that you've been able to come

on and chat to me about it. I think it just really

highlights some of the stuff that the research was

bringing out, and it kind of gives us an extra insight into what

happens when we take those risks and when we're

innovative and creative. So thank you very

much for taking time out of you. I know you've just back off a festival,

so thank you so much for taking the time to chat

to me.

No, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. Yeah.

That'S it for today.

I hope you learned something new, or.

Perhaps I've given you a new way to think about what you

experience. A quick reminder that

rating and reviewing all the podcasts you love really does

help other people find them, which is especially

appreciated by independent podcasters. For

more psychological insights. You'll find all the ways you can connect

with me in the show notes.

Thanks for listening to psychologically speaking with me,

Leela. Ange, bye for now.