You are listening to the we need to Talk Hot Oscar podcast, and this is our interview with Peter Craig, creator of Dope Thief.

If I can get in that state, writing where I'm hearing it and I'm smelling it and I'm concentrating well enough that I'm literally making decisions as if I'm that character on the page, then I know I've got something.

When you really get hot as a writer, it's about the most fun you could ever have in your life until you're actually with an actor.

That other part of the process, when you finally give it to an actor, can either be terrifying or wonderful.

To be honest, I've only seen the first two episodes, and I'll continue watching the series tonight.

But the vibes, man.

I mean, let's.

The atmosphere, rather impeccable.

Amazing.

Thank you.

I love that.

And maybe to just kick things off, can you tell me a little bit about the source material?

Denis Tefoia's book?

How did you come across it?

And.

Yeah, why did it stick with you?

So it stuck with me just from the very beginning because I just thought that premise was something I could do so much with.

I love the idea of guys just masquerading for their con.

And I love two characters that had been in and out of the drug world were trying to get clean, but they felt justified in ripping it off and doing it in this really theatrical way.

And so I knew I could do a lot with that premise.

And then the book is.

It's really got sort of a part one and a part two.

The part two jumps far ahead.

It's been resolved.

And I thought, well, this is great, because I can just use the part one, and I can invent a few threads, and I can take it all the way to the end.

And the author, luckily, was great with that.

So it's pretty true to part of the first half of the book.

But then there's an awful lot of invention mention in the back half, and that was great.

Believe it or not, it was just from a general meeting at Apple that they had the book and asked me if I wanted to read it.

I read it.

I said, yeah, great, let's go for it.

And maybe this is a big question, but what is it about realizing and visualizing what's on the page and bringing it to the screen that makes you tick usually.

Oh, that's interesting.

Which part of it?

Because there's a few parts you write to get through so many different hoops along the way.

Do you mean once you're Actually.

Actually realizing it and shooting it and being there for the actual production of the process.

Or do you mean just writing it at the very beginning?

A little bit Both, as in a.

Little bit of both?

As in the moment of realizing this might be something you're able to shoot.

So realizing when you're writing it, it's a connection that you have.

I mean, I'm such a character first writer.

That's why I think I've become kind of a character specialist on the feature side over the years.

What happens is if I connect with a person and I can really, uh.

It's almost like this egoless process where you just start writing and you actually forget it's you and you.

You've immersed yourself so much in this character that you're really living a separate life.

If I can get in that state, writing where I'm hearing it and I'm smelling it and I'm concentrating well enough that I'm literally making decisions as if I'm that character on the page, then I know I've got something.

You usually have to write your way into it.

It doesn't just happen.

It takes weeks.

It takes a long time of exercises.

But it's like I'll get so immersed that I'll start having dreams as if I'm that person.

I'll start having Dre about that person.

And, you know, they.

If it's a life that I.

But for that to happen, I have to really understand some dilemma that they're in, and I have to maybe be struggling or have struggle with something really similar in my life.

So that connection is beautiful.

I love it.

It's what happens.

It's like when you really get hot as a writer, it's about the most fun you could ever have in your life until you're actually with an actor.

That other part of the process, when you finally give it to an actor, can either be terrifying or wonderful, terrifying.

Because actors immediately sense bullshit.

They can immediately tell when you've kind of faked your way through something.

But if you're being honest and pure, they sense that too.

And in this case, I.

Brian got it right away.

All these actors got it right away.

And I had this unbelievable connection with all of them where they got it.

They got to complete the process.

I got to listen to them and understand their trauma, understand their past, and actually tailor these characters to them.

You know, it's not finished until it's them.

And some people, it's funny.

Like, my manager is a smart guy.

He went and watched this.

He said, God.

You know, Ray's voice is a really interesting mix of yours and Brian's.

It's like they almost dovetailed.

And I got to the point where I.

I could hear that voice in my head when I was doing revisions and Brian could hear it in his head.

And so that, that second part is as much fun as when you get really hot as a writer.

Because also.

Cause it's not as isolating.

Sorry for the long answer there, but.

I thank you for the long answer.

That's absolutely fascinating.

And yeah, now that you mentioned characters and tailoring the characters to the actors regarding the moral side of constructing the story and what the characters are like, we often ask actors about to what extent they need to relate to their characters.

However, even though this might not be a bad thing, do you ever get annoyed by or angry at the characters you're dealing with?

Yeah, all the time.

The same way I get angry at myself all the time.

You know, the same way versions, things you've done in your past, like why, why did I do that?

That was awful.

It's, it's, you know, you.

You have to be completely honest about all the flaws and you have to be aware of them.

And, you know, it's that.

That kind of honesty is what lets you write something.

It's also what makes you feel so vulnerable and exposed at this point in the process.

And all of us are calling each other and we're really like the last week going in, we're all so nervous because you're just kind of naked out there.

You just lay it out.

You say, look, I'm a flawed fucked up person writing about flawed, fucked up people.

And take what you will from it, they arrive at someplace a little bit wiser.

But that's all they really get from it, you know, and that's all we ever really, from anything.

I thought I just can shake is where does humor fit in a tale as serious and dramatic as this one?

Because one thing is for sure, you and Dennis both found a place for it.

Absolutely.

So I've never been in a terrible situation where there wasn't humor, where there wasn't somebody says the funniest fucking thing you've ever heard in your life right at the worst moment.

And that's just how people survive.

It's how people keep their spirits up.

It's how people cope with things.

It's how people actually solve problems.

And it's awareness, it's characters being aware of themselves, aware of the absurdity of things.

Because really the difference between tragedy and comedy is just the distance from which you're looking at it.

You take one step back from a tragedy and it's suddenly a comedy because what else can it be?

So if you're thinking of humor as a survival device, it's pretty easy to get it into something that's really extreme because these characters can't believe this is happening to them either, you know, and it's, you know, and you think about it, all of it.

It's like when we were in lockdown during COVID or when one thing's happening after another.

I mean, we're.

The world is so chaotic now.

Every day is like that.

And there's days where you.

It just strikes you.

You just have to laugh because, my God, what else is going to get piled on top of us at this point?

On the technical side of things, allow me one quick question about the flashbacks because, yeah, I'm just obsessed with cinematography and yeah, Eric Messerschmitt is one of the best in the biz.

I hope this isn't a spoiler, but were those scenes, the flashbacks, scripted to be in black and white?

Okay, so no, this is a great question.

No, they weren't.

And Eric and I figured that out together.

Eric is a genius.

I mean, I will say that he is as good as it gets.

And he and I, we didn't have that much time to go before we were shooting.

And Eric and I were talking about it.

My part of the idea was I said, I want these flashbacks to be so fast that you never leave the present.

I want it to just be about how past trauma is always getting eaten by present trauma, or it's always informing present trauma.

They're all the same thing.

And the way you have a sense memory, like you smell a certain kind of tea or something and it reminds you of your childhood.

That's the same way trauma is.

You go through something, you're like, oh, this feels a lot like something I went through before.

I wanted the flashbacks to be like that.

And so we had an idea of how they were going to be shot and how they were going to be edited.

But Eric was like, yeah, but what's the visual language that differentiates it?

And I didn't want to do black and white because that's what we did in the Town.

And I thought it was a movie called Town.

That was my first movie.

And I thought it was going to be kind of self referential to be black and white exactly the same way.

And he was like, get over yourself.

Not that many people saw that.

They don't care.

And Eric just desaturated it on the day and said, look at it.

What do you think?

He was already doing this tilt shift so that it was like a little murky at the edges.

But we thought that was a little dream sequence.

See, if you just did that by itself.

And so what we wanted to do is just.

We just stuck with the desaturation.

Because then I had this idea.

You'll see in later episodes, color starts coming back.

In certain places, there'll be part of it color and part of it not color, because it's all kind of merging.

And it wound up being great because it wound up being this idea that you're carrying your past with you through the present all the time.

And that was the idea.

I think Eric pulled it off, giving us that language.

Oh, Turks, magic.

And, yeah, I can assure you that the town has more than a cult following.

And I love it personally and both logistically and artistically.

Somewhat in the order of the episodes, the directors are Ridley Scott, a previous guest of our show, Jonathan Van De Lake and Tanya Hamilton, Marcel aside, and yourself, how did you go about assembling this team of directors?

Well, I just went to the directors I loved.

I mean, JVT Jonathan Van Tulleken, I mean, is.

I'm trying to write a feature for him because I think he is.

Everybody knows what he did on Shogun, but he's.

And he's really known in the TV world.

I don't think he's broken out into the world yet where everybody knows his name.

And I think he's just phenomenally talented.

The same, I would say, for the other directors, too.

I mean, Tanya and then Marcela Said has done these really interesting, intricate little independent features.

She's a Chilean who lives in France, who is just really artistic.

Fantastic.

So what happened is, once we had him, we shuffled him around.

We were constantly shuffling who was going to do what episode.

I mean, it's a little inside baseball, but I actually started episode six, and then the strike came and they were picket.

Our show got picketed and we shut down.

I respect the Writers Guild, so we shut down right away as soon as the strike came.

And it was too hard to start up again with me directing it with all the other logistical stuff a showrunner has to do.

So I moved to 8 partway through.

And JVT so nimble that he came on and just picked it up right away.

It got to the point where we were all so close.

It was kind of like a basketball team, and it was kind of like, who's going to take the last shot?

I miss all of them.

I really can't wait to work with some of them again.

And one last question before we go, since we are used to seeing you behind the keyboard.

And if I'm not mistaken, this might actually be your first time directing, at least on this scale.

So even though as serving as a creator, showrunner, writer is already a hands on involvement, what was about this project that made you take the leap and direct not only an episode, but the final episode of Dope Thief?

I think it was that I could do a lot of really interesting character things, but on a playing field that I was pretty familiar with.

I've worked so much in crime that I felt comfortable taking all kinds of chances and all kinds of leaps because I, you know, I know the genre well enough that I can play with it a little bit.

I think if I'd gone and tried to start with sci fi or romantic comedy or one of those genres that I don't know very well, even though I've tried to write both with less success, you know, I think I wouldn't have.

I don't think I would have been as comfortable or as confident.

And I think both of those are.

They're important for a director, they're really important for a showrunner because you're there to solve a lot of problems, put out a lot of fires and you're kind of, you know, captain of a ship, for lack of a better word.

And you have to at least seem like you know where you're going, everybody.

You might not always, but you at least have to know how to navigate a little bit.

And I was really, really comfortable in this world, this genre.

It's similar to the Town in some ways.

It just is the whole loyalty, the friendship, Stu, the cons and the crimes and, you know, it's very similar to two books I wrote.

My middle book was a book called Hot Plastic.

That's similar to this too.

That was about con men.

So, you know, similar enough, but had room to be different.

Yeah.

First of all, I can't wait to see the finale.

And Peter, this was a pleasure and an honor.

So thank you so much for your time.

Pleasure talking to you.

That was really fun.