Hello and welcome back to another episode of Getting Real with Bossy.

I am your host, Kelly Bush.

And I'm your host, Kelly Metras.

We are so happy to have you here today.

It is a blustery cold, blustery cold winter day here in Rochester, New York.

It is snowing like crazy.

It's really pretty.

And I'm so glad to be inside talking to Kathy Turiano about coffee because.

Coffee is so warm and toasty.

Coffee is comfort and community and all the things that just make me happy.

Right.

Maybe Kathy, maybe Kathy wants it on our retirement plan.

Yeah, I think that'd be great.

I think that'd be perfect.

We should ask her.

I'm happy it's Monday because usually the weather is shitty, unlike Friday or Saturday, which directly affects my success of the week financially.

Be able to pay my bills.

Super happy.

It's a Monday.

No, it was supposed to be bad weather, so I woke up very surprised.

Thankfully the kids don't have school, so I'm sure somebody will pop in throughout this, this recording.

But yeah, Kathy, super excited.

She's got a really interesting story.

We got to speak with her or have her as a guest at our panel on our Bossy conference in 2024.

Very interesting story.

She's been in the coffee industry for over 2020 or this is her 20th year now.

They've award winning coffee.

She's got a lot of interesting pivots.

So I'm excited to.

We're excited to share her story with all of you, our wonderful listeners.

So brew yourself a cup of coffee, however you choose to do it and settle in for a pretty incredible story.

Hello and welcome back to another episode of Getting Real with Bossy, the podcast that shows you what it's actually like to be a business owner.

Today, we are thrilled to welcome Kathy Toriano, the business development and marketing director of Joe Bean Coffee, to the podcast.

Kathy is a trailblazer in the coffee world, known for her dedication to coffee, to quality, sustainability, and creating an exceptional coffee experience.

Jo Bean is no exception to this.

We're excited to dive into Kathy's journey, her passion for coffee, and what's brewing next for Joe Bean.

They are mindfully grown, directly sourced, meticulously roasted, and nationally recognized.

Thank you so much for joining us today, Kathy.

I'm thrilled to be here.

Hi Kelly.

We're so happy to have you here.

Thank you so much for joining us.

We've wanted you on the podcast since you were able to be a panelist at our last Bossy conference.

So we're Excited to finally able to make this happen.

So thank you so much.

How fun that was.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That was a year ago.

Was it a year, year ago?

March?

That was a great conference.

Like, it was a great conference.

Really had some amazing speakers.

And, you know, well done, you guys, for putting that together.

I took a lot of notes at that conference.

I really did.

That's awesome.

I.

I met some really good people, so.

Yeah.

Fun.

All right.

I'm glad to hear that we're working on what we're.

We're working on this year's.

The whole year of things.

The whole.

The whole panel of panels of all the things we're going to do this year.

All the things.

All the things.

I'm very excited.

All the things.

Don't we all do that in January?

Isn't that the January?

Pretty much.

Oh, no, wait, I didn't make my year plan yet.

Hang on.

Yeah, we always, like, oh, October.

Let's.

Let's have a meeting to plan the year, and then.

Then it's February.

Yeah.

Then it's February.

Planning the.

Yeah.

I think I always do my year budget in January.

I always do my calendar in January and then.

Right.

Finish it by the end of the month and think that's amazing.

Right.

Or sometimes I finish it in June.

So, you know.

Right.

You never know.

I love how hopeful and excited I am in January.

And then, you know, as the months go on, you're like, well, that didn't work.

Like, let me adjust that.

I know.

I know, right?

And do you guys even buy a planner and, you know, I bought a note anymore.

No.

I have a lot of notebooks.

Yeah.

A lot of notebooks.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Just in case I want to take all those copious notes and, you know, follow a tremendous plan.

Exactly.

They're like my high school diaries.

They're fun to look back at and giggle.

Giggle over a glass of wine.

Oh, I was so hopeful.

I was so hopeful in January.

Such an idiot.

I was so organized that first week of January.

Right.

Nice.

Oh, boy, you are full of the quotes.

I'm gonna make Kelly.

I'm gonna make a notebook for Kelly just of all her fun quotes lately.

I love it.

That's going up there.

It's like my high school diaries.

So Kathy.

Kathy does one.

How does one start a coffee company?

Oh, goodness.

So Joe Bean has a really long history.

Is this my time to talk about our history?

It is your time.

Okay.

So we kind of have a long history, and we have three what I consider to be major pivots within Our company.

So, you know, it's funny, over the years, people are like, I remember, you know, Joe Bean 1, Joe Bean 2, Joe Bean 3, Joe being 1.5, 2.0, 2.5.

You know, I don't, you know, whatever reiteration we're on, but, but I think, you know, it seems like that's a lot, but the coffee industry itself has evolved and changed and really moved, especially in the last 20 years.

And so, you know, I think for us we're constant.

We were constantly kind of reacting to the new thing and where, where coffee really was and, and what was going on in coffee.

So I can take you all the way back to the village of Webster and you know, 2005, like you said, Kelly, you know, where we started, we still, we started with a lot of stars in our eyes and, you know, lots of warm and fuzzy feelings and, you know, a beautiful idea which really my husband and I at the time were volunteering for.

We worked with junior high, high school and college students and we had a ton of, of that age group around us at any given moment.

And Friday nights we would have sort of an open house food meal and anyone that came, I fed.

You know, if you were within my radius, I fed you.

During that time, we started building in particular sort of a large group of college students.

And one of them actually was Dina, who eventually became my business partner.

So her and her would be husband were two of our college students that hung out at our house.

And what we saw and what was built in that season of our life was really the value of community and what it does for young people.

And I still stand for that today.

Like, I think it's important for that generation as they're growing up, obviously to have the love of family and friends.

But having a other adults who see you and see value in you is just.

It does something that nothing else does.

And that's my personal story.

I had a teacher when I was in eighth grade that I was one of those super shy, like, you know, kids that just didn't think a lot of themselves.

And then I had this teacher that said things into my life and it, and it changed how I thought about me.

And so with that sort of in my own DNA, I really wanted to be that for, for young people.

And so you can only have so many people at your house and you can only feed so many people.

And so the idea, the seed, you know, began to grow of how can we bring that out, you know, and into the community.

And so that was the birth of Joe Bean that was at our root.

And so we.

We purchased a cafe, and in the village of Webster.

And Dina was.

I was actually supposed to be kind of the silent partner, and Dina was supposed to be kind of her and her husband, almost husband.

We're going to be sort of the main couple that was running it.

But, you know, guys, I'm sure know and understand.

There's just an incredible avalanche of details and activities, and suddenly your life, you know, just gets scooped up in these things.

And honestly, Dena was a little overwhelmed, and I could see it, so I ended up stepping in, and then it just became her and I just side by side, you know, kind of working that process a few years.

And we were really busy.

Doors were always filled, and we had a lot of young people.

But busy doesn't equate to money.

Can you say that one more time, please?

Give it louder for the back, please.

Busy does not mean success, financial success, everybody at all.

And, you know, I.

I think people don't actually recognize that.

They see your door filled, and they're like, you're doing great.

And we were.

We were super involved in the community, volunteered for everything and anything.

I was on the chamber.

I ran events.

You know, name it, we did it.

And it had a lot of value, but financially, we were really struggling.

And so Dina and I actually went away for a weekend to a women's retreat and, you know, did some soul searching and, you know, kind of came back saying, we're done.

Like, it was a great experiment.

It was wonderful, but, you know, we're going to be done.

But I always leave myself a loop just a little, like, just in case, right?

This is like how I run.

I said, just in case.

Let's make a list of what ifs, right?

If somebody, you know, did these things for us, then we would keep moving forward, right?

So we came back with this little tiny list and, you know, this intent to close.

And within a week, our list started getting checked off.

Like, kid, you not like one of the things on our list.

So we weren't actually roasting our own coffee.

We were sourcing from somebody else.

And I thought, well, first off, I need a product.

Like, I can't sell somebody else's stuff.

There's just not enough margin.

So we wanted to roast, but I thought, but I can't afford to buy a roaster.

I can't afford to get a space.

Like, all of that.

Like, I put all the money into this thing, so, you know, money's gone, right?

So we got approached by a guy in the community.

Who.

His daughter was one of our regulars.

And apparently we were a big place in her life.

And I didn't know it.

And so he said, you guys are too important.

I heard you guys are closing.

He said, what do you need?

And so I, you know, pulled out my little list and I said, well, here's what I need.

And I said, I need a roaster.

I need a spot.

I need to be able to hunker down and I need just time, you know, So I need somewhere cheap.

And he owned a warehouse.

He gave us his warehouse space pretty cheap.

And he actually bought our first roaster.

Yeah.

And.

And I kept saying, oh, so you're like an investor this and that.

And he goes, kathy, this is a gift.

And so our first roaster was a gift to us.

And he became really an advocate, you know, for us in that little window of time.

And then second kind of big on our list was I knew that we were doing things in coffee that were not quite where coffee was, but I, I didn't know what.

Where to go.

Right.

And I knew we weren't competitive.

Like, I knew that there was stuff happening in coffee and that we were kind of competing against Dunkin Donuts and, and Starbucks, which, by the way, opened within a year of me.

And like right around the corner, you.

Know, with a drive through.

What's that?

With a drive through, I assume.

Oh, yeah, yeah, exactly, Kelly.

Like with a drive through and, you know, I would have people like.

And God bless them, but, you know, I would have people who supported me, you know, supported me, right.

Go through the drive through with their cup and then, you know, beep and honk and wave to me, you know, woo hoo, Joe Bean.

And I'm like, thanks.

You know, woo hoo.

Right.

But anyway, the.

The second kind of big thing that I needed was fresh eyes and a new generation.

And I really wanted our.

My son to join the business, but I didn't want to pressure him.

He was in college at the time, and, you know, I kind of thought it has to be his idea.

Like, there's this funny dynamic in family businesses where you want your family with you, but if you pressure them, then they can resent you, and it's just messy.

On his own, he came and said, I want to be a part, especially now that you're roasting.

I'm super interested and I see a lot that's going on in the industry.

So, Ben, I got all my lists, check, check, check.

And we decided to keep going.

And we took, took really what I Consider to be kind of a three or four year hiatus of moving super slow.

We.

We spent time going to New York, we went to Boston.

We got involved with the specialty coffee industry outside of Rochester.

We learned to roast.

I also realized this morning as I was thinking about this podcast, it was this, like, really funny, like, little window of time for us where we started meeting, like, the geeky people, like the geeky coffee people who happened to be in Rochester, and nobody was cleaning, collecting them, right?

And we started to collect them like they were there, they had come from other places.

And we met them all when we were kind of doing this research, you know, some of the core players who ended up being our barista team.

I met them during that little window of time where we were doing farmers markets and, you know, roasting on the side and, you know, all of the things.

And it.

I.

I was also thinking about sort of my journey and thinking that I am the type of person maybe you guys can relate.

But, you know, once I sort of get like a little community going and it starts to feel good, like I could hunker down and be like, this is great.

Let's just keep doing this, you know, and for.

For me to move to the next thing, I need a shove, right?

And a lot of times it comes in conflict.

And so, you know, something happens, some conflict happens, something, you know, kind of comes.

Comes to a head, and I have to decide what to do with that.

I.

I read this great book years ago called Necessary Endings that, you know, some things need to come to an end for the new thing to begin.

And, you know, for me, I don't like endings.

So I would keep it going, you know.

So what came to an end was the building that we were in actually got bought out by a really big developer and one that kind of has a reputation for not being great with their tenants.

And so we were in this warehouse that had a lot of, you know, more industrial type businesses and then us, right?

And so when they bought out the building, they had a deal on the table pretty quickly to take down the building and build a medical center.

And so they gave all the tenants eviction notices, 30 day eviction notices.

These are, like big, like, industrial type, you know, companies that had been there for, like 30 years and they had 30 days to, you know, find a new space, move all their equipment, and then, you know, get their business and not lose business, because none of them.

I found out that none of them had leases.

They were all like kind of a handshake because the village of Webster was sort of a little bit old school, you know, when it came to that.

So the only one that had a lease was, you know, yours truly.

So we.

We had this lease that we were paying, you know, 200 bucks a month, right?

And we had this tiny, you know, but we were the ones that held the lease.

And so they couldn't bring down the building because of us.

So we became the brunt of, you know, all of their focus, which really wasn't good.

It was a lot of pressure.

They started, you know, not to get in and sidetracked on it too much.

But, you know, it was.

It was like six months where they were trying to pressure us to just exit.

And our whole focus at that time was we'll exit, but we want you to buy out our lease so that we have the money to exit.

Right.

And we also want you to help these other tenants relocate.

So we.

We entered into.

Into a legal battle with those guys, and, you know, at the end of the day, we won.

Right.

It was like a David and Goliath.

Like, we really, truly were so tiny.

If I told you the amount of money that we were fighting for, you would probably laugh, you know, But.

But as a small business, like, thousand, you know, thousand dollars is like it, right?

Like, yeah.

So important, you know, to put it down a down payment, you know, on a new space and to, you know, have a little bit of money so that you can, you know, maybe do a tiny bit of construction.

I mean, I'm not talking a lot, but, you know, I held out for a few thousand dollars and thought it was a huge victory.

It's a huge victory, though.

It is, absolutely.

So with our few thousand dollars right in hand, this is 2011.

Sorry.

This is a really long history.

I'm sorry, I actually, I just want to pause for a second because I think that this is a learning moment for a lot of listeners that might be early on in their business, that regardless of what the people around you are doing, you need to make sure that you're taken care of.

And if you hadn't had that lease, the next part of the story that you're going to tell us is going to look very different because you would have been kicked out in 30 days.

Yeah, we've seen it happen to businesses that we know.

I am a huge proponent of making sure your ass is covered.

Yes, I may love my landlord today, but my landlord can sell his building like nothing is set in stone ever.

Like, you have to make sure you're covered.

Yes.

I think that this is just A great moment to really.

Because whatever you're about to tell us next, which we know where you are now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wouldn't have happened, Right.

If you hadn't had that.

And it sounds like you knew the person that was renting you the space.

You didn't necessarily need the lease.

Right.

And it saved your business.

Yeah.

And you know what, Kelly?

Thank you for stopping at that moment, because nobody tells you these things, like.

And I did know him, and he was such an advocate for us, and we had a great working business relationship.

And in fact, when I asked for a lease, he goes, oh, Kathy, you don't need that.

You know, And I almost felt a little embarrassed, you know, kind of like I didn't trust him.

But I said, well, I.

I kind of feel like I would like it, you know, just.

Just for.

Between us.

Right.

And it was the simplest, least.

But it was enough to keep me right in the game.

And, you know, they had to honor it.

Like, no matter what, they had to honor it.

It really.

I ended up with this.

We had so many people.

I mean, it does.

What do they say?

It takes a tribe.

Right?

But it takes a tribe to keep a small business afloat.

Float.

In those early years.

Everything is against you.

Absolutely everything is against you.

And, you know, when we were up against this really large developer, I mean, they're.

They're a big player.

And I had.

We were doing this tiny little farmer's market in Webster, and it turns out that my neighbor who was selling cookies was a retired negotiator for this huge corporation on the West Coast.

And he said, kathy, what's going on?

And I told him, and he said, man, he said, I'll be your negotiator at the table.

And I thought, holy cow.

Like, I got this guy who's negotiating for us.

It floored me that he was willing to give me his time and, you know, and the value.

Somebody told me one time to look around you and see the value of the people that gather around you and recognize, you know, that that itself is like, so such an asset, you know, and that means, like, whatever value, though, you know what I'm saying?

Like, they're bringing you stuff that you could not afford, like I could never have afforded him.

And yet he was bringing me that.

That level of value, you know, in that moment.

And I thought that's.

But these things also happened because of what you created, right?

Like, if you hadn't created that sense of community and belonging in those groups, in the farmer, farmers markets in the town, you Know, allowing that gentleman to have that place for his daughter.

Right.

Open and honest about what you're going through and putting that out into the universe.

And I think that's part of what we try to advocate for with this podcast is telling that story and being real and honest people.

If people can't help if they don't know what you're going through, so.

Right.

Yeah.

And I.

And thank you guys for saying that.

That means a lot.

And I think you.

You don't.

You give your heart, right?

Like, that's how we all start, you know, that.

That we start businesses because we love them and we give everything.

We pour everything.

Especially I think women entrepreneurs, look at.

I'm crying, do this.

We pour everything into it.

And then when they don't succeed, it's devastating, you know, or when they're not financially successful, I think it's devastating to us.

But what is grown out of those moments are these things that can launch.

I had this friend in that little window of time, too, who is a lawyer, and she said to me, Kathy, she said she was a divorce lawyer, and she.

She worked with women who came out of really tough marriages, right.

And she said 90% of the time, can't stay.

Stay in the fight, the divorce fight, to get what they're due because of the pressure.

And she said, and usually they'll fold, you know, before they kind of get, like, what's actually due to them, because it.

There's just so much pressure.

And she said, if you can stay in this and.

And exist in the pressure, she said, then there is.

There is the other side, and the things that you've already invested into will kind of pop up.

Right.

If you will and do have value.

But, boy, you.

You know, you almost got to exist in that moment of feeling like everything is falling apart and everything is about.

About to dissolve and nothing left.

Right.

Including nothing of me.

There's nothing in business.

There's nothing of me.

Like, everything that I've, you know, invested into is worth nothing.

And then.

But if you can stay in it, I do think that's not true.

Those are all the lies that we believe as entrepreneurs.

Right.

So there.

That's my.

Yeah, we could talk about that for, like, the next hour.

But I really want to hear what happens next, because there's so many lies that we tell.

Tell ourselves as business owners and as women.

Yeah.

So we're in 2011.

So.

So we.

We recognized that again, sort of this thing that we were building was what we wanted to bring to the city, that, that's really where we wanted to be.

I.

I'm gonna pause for just a minute and kind of go, like, it's so funny.

I've never thought of loving Rochester.

Like, now I know, you know, you got your Rochester earrings, right?

Like a Rochester sweatshirt on.

You know, think 2011.

Like, that was not a dialogue, you know, that existed.

And.

And I grew up in Rochester, and I don't know, I just didn't think to say I loved it.

Right.

Like, it just was a place that you grow up.

And I think the decision to move into the city and to create a community that actually loved our city really was intentional.

And we saw that, you know, when we sort of were doing our exploration of specialty coffee, that these specialty coffee places weren't just about serving amazing coffee.

They actually were hubs of people who loved the city that they lived in and advocated for the city that they lived in because they wanted to grow something that was bigger than coffee or good cocktails or good tequila or, you know, places to hang out.

Like, they wanted something larger than that.

And so what I sort of say is 2011, not just that we moved, but I really, truly knew that we were starting what I call a coffee movement and that, you know, eventually the movement would move outside of our door.

Right?

Because movements, like, a movement's not one place, A movement's not, you know, one restaurant or one coffee place.

A movement kind of explodes into the city.

But it took a little while.

2011, we moved in, we opened our espresso bar.

You know, we started doing pour overs and all these crazy things with coffee that nobody was doing, and.

And started talking coffee in really different ways.

And, you know, I always say that you either loved us or absolutely hated us.

There was sort of no in between.

But thankfully, enough people loved us that, you know, we started to grow.

Oh, my gosh.

I remember walking into jobing on university.

Is this when you were on university?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And just being like, I didn't know you can make coffee like that, right?

Taking so long.

But, no, it was just so cool.

Like, as like, a geek, I was just like, anything that's new and different and interesting, I was like, wait, what is.

What are they doing?

And I would just, like, watch all the different ways people would order their coffee being made.

And it was just the coolest thing ever, because no one was doing it.

Yeah, we had.

Well, in Rochester, nobody was doing it.

Nobody.

And.

And we had.

We served.

Boy, I think it was like six or seven different brewing methods.

I mean, it was ridiculous.

Like, but but we did that to take coffee out of where it was and bring it into.

To where we saw.

And you almost have to, I think, when you sort of change over how people look at something that they know all the time, right?

Like, they look at, you know, a drink is a drink and coffee is a coffee, and, you know, food is food, you know, so you have to shake it up in some way in order to take them out of that, you know, mode.

And so I think that's why we did so many crazy things, you know, at the beginning, which was like, coffee's not just coffee.

It's grown by people, and it's, you know, it's tasty and wonderful, and by the way, you could do all these great things.

Things with it.

And we started educating.

Like, that was a big piece of what we did on university.

We did classes, and, you know, we started talking coffee in very different ways and really building a community of people who were focused on Rochester and on coffee and on food and local and, you know, all the things that I think that we see now in our city that has developed.

The poutine truck was the first food, you know, food truck in Rochester.

And they.

They came and were right outside my door.

I remember talking to Lizzy and being like, yeah, why don't we have that food truck thing, you know, outside our door?

The eat me ice cream ladies would come.

Like, a lot was happening in 2011.

So, yeah, fast forward.

We.

We.

We were solid.

We did that for seven years, right?

And really, really busy.

But I think, you know, we kind of came to another spot.

And as I said before, you know, for me, I could have done that for forever, right?

But I think you come to these spots where you recognize that maybe something needs to change.

And I think in that moment, it was mainly for Dena and for Ben.

Things needed to change.

I think they were both.

That's my son.

They were both our business partners, and they were just really burnt out.

We were open so seven days a week, from morning until midnight most days.

We were doing a thousand events.

We were running a full kitchen, a full bar, full bunch of events.

And then, you know, in the midst of all of that, coffee was exploding in Rochester.

So, you know, you sort of start to see the writing on the wall that you're.

You're now competing against instead of nobody, which we really weren't competing against anybody.

Now we're competing against, you know, 10, 15 spots, you know, that all kind of look like us.

And, well, and the competition blew up on the chain side.

Too.

So you have way more locally owned and operated coffee shops.

Right.

You see them popping up, but you also have those drive thrus that are exploding.

Yes, Rochester.

Yes, you're right, Kelly.

And you know what's interesting?

Both Dunkin Donuts and Starbucks were really not in the city.

And you know, they're, their model is to look where coffee is happening.

And so, and then, and then land.

And so here all of these independents were making coffee happen and they're like, Rochester is a great coffee scene.

What's like so, so then they land.

So you're right.

So now you're up against everybody, you know, locally.

And I don't want to say it in a bad way, but it is true.

Like, and I really do love everyone in the Rochester coffee scene.

I know most of them and you know, it is one kind of big, you know, community but you know, you're still trying to survive financially and so somebody is.

There's only so many customers and they're all going to make choices, you know, of where to go.

And now you've got these other drive throughs in the mix so they're going to make those choices as well.

So you know, your customer base gets ever so slightly stretched and when you have, you know, small margins and you're trying to make life work, that stretch can be difficult.

Add in 201617 we actually were, we were growing and so we bought a new roaster and it was like the lemon of all roasters piece of equipment that was really challenging and ended up putting me once again in a legal battle.

I've had two pretty big legal battles.

So if anybody out there wants to talk to me about how to do that, I can help.

I never thought I'd be in any way an expert, and I'm not an expert, but I do know how to navigate some of that.

But it was a lot.

And so 2019, we just made this choice to look at what we were doing and to pare it back.

And roasting has always.

And in that time we were starting to direct source.

So Ben was going to origin, he was going to Colombia, Costa Rica, Guatemala.

Like we were really getting to know our farming partners way better and recognizing how much we love that and how much we could bring that to the Rochester coffee scene or the regional coffee scene and how, you know, exciting that whole aspect of the business was for us.

And so we also had been seeing roasteries around the country building out kind of their roastery almost like a brewery.

So, you know, there was this new model kind of going on where you would build your production space and then you would house your espresso bar within your production space space.

So that was our original thought in 2019, was to build out our production space and build our espresso bar, you know, in the front and kind of do more like the classes and, you know, bring our farming partners into the space and have people meet them.

So we, we did that.

So 2018, we closed on university.

Our lease was up too, so the timing was kind of good.

And then we built out our space right around the corner on Blossom in 2019.

Had our farming partner from Nicaragua come for our grand opening.

People loved him.

He was awesome to have there.

Had our farming partner from Guatemala come.

It was super fun.

And then Covid hit damn it.

There it is.

So, you know, it was funny.

We did some of the stuff that we thought we would do in 2019 and we.

We built out our website, we built out our home subscription program, like a lot of ways to.

Then ended up being the foundation of where we are right now.

And then 2020 hit and all of the things that we built in 2019 digitally really became our path forward and where we needed to be.

Like, our home subscription program took off.

Our online sales took off, really helped us survive.

You know, what we all know was a wild year.

Wild years, right?

Yeah.

But the front of the house changed radically.

Like, we had seating and everything in there.

We had taken it away.

And then by the time you could put it back, we needed the space.

Like, our production was busy and so.

And we didn't have the team to man it.

Like everybody, you know, had kind of gone their own way as far as our barista team.

Rightfully so.

Not in a bad way, but, you know, so we just were in a very different spot.

When it said you could bring all that back, we're like, well, we're sort of done.

And so, you know, now here we are.

Today we're.

We're mainly focused on online and home subscriptions, but, you know, also wholesale and.

And co packing is kind of a big, big part of our world too.

So.

So there.

I know.

Can you explain what.

So there's our 20 year history in way too long.

I'm sorry.

Not at all.

So, Cath, Kathy, what is co packing for the listener that doesn't know.

Sure.

So we.

We actually private label, I guess, for a few other brands.

A few of them are.

Are regional and one of them is national and our name is not on it.

Some we source coffee for and other ones they source their own Coffee.

Because we have such great relationships at the farm level, we're able to help with sourcing, and a lot of them are taking advantage of that.

So.

So.

So, you know, people may be surprised to know there are roasters that don't always roast.

Roasting is especially.

Sourcing in 2020 became really tricky, and unless you had built a.

A very solid network of farming partners, it was hard to get your hands on inventory.

And so that's what we can kind of bring to the table.

And that's how we started helping some other, you know, sort of regional roasters who didn't have that.

So we have.

We kind of help them keep going so they can.

So you do the work and then you put their label on it?

Yes, that's exactly it.

So we help them source and then we roast it, and then we put their label on it.

It.

So we're not on there at all.

I think it's a great value that we can bring to other businesses that, you know, want to keep that brand going, but don't have some of the infrastructure that we've built out, you know, over the last few years.

And you talk.

Sorry, I was gonna say, you talked about the technical stuff that you guys built.

And I just want to say your website's amazing, and for anybody listening that needs to learn about some of the things that we talked about in the past half an hour or however long we've been telling your story.

You guys kind of break it down for people like, you know, what the different things mean, how to use them appropriately.

So if you want to be a better coffee drinker, you should go to the jobing website and look around and see some of the tips and tricks, because it is.

It is great.

You guys do a great job.

Thank you.

Kelly.

Yeah, I assume you're kind of referring to our blog.

And, you know, one of the things we struggled with over the last few years was so much dialogue happened around our espresso bar of, you know, people coming in and saying, hey, I.

I can't make coffee at home the way you guys make coffee.

Help me.

And, you know, what am I doing wrong?

Yeah.

And coffee is one of those really funny things where you think, I can make coffee.

Everybody knows how to make coffee.

And then as soon as you start, you know, tasting better coffee and going to coffee shops and having baristas make stuff for you, then you're like, what the heck are they doing?

You know, that I'm not doing?

And.

And.

But we miss that.

Like, we.

We ended up missing that when we didn't have that, you know, in 2020 or whatever, we missed that community of talking to people.

So then we built out the blog, we built out our YouTube and have been trying to kind of make that digital community answer the questions that we know people have.

Because I, I get it.

Like, you bring home this bag and you think, now what?

Right.

Especially for the gifters.

Right?

We're right after the holidays, people went and got some jobine coffee for gifts and give it to people, and then they're like, okay, now what?

Yeah, we get that a lot.

Yeah.

You know, so and so sent me this and I don't know what to do with it.

So.

Yeah.

And, you know, it's funny little things.

I mean, coffee is.

Coffee is.

How does it get flavor?

Right?

How does that drink get flavored?

You know, there's just coffee grounds, get in touch with water.

Right.

So so little tiny tweaks, like, you know, grind size and how, how.

And timing, like how much time does that actually engage and what's the size of the granules?

Like, you tweak those little things and suddenly you have an amazingly better beverage.

So that's what we, we're helping people do, those tiny little tweaks.

That's fantastic.

Can you talk quick about the subscription boxes?

I think that's pretty incredible that you offer that.

Sure.

So we have about a dozen or so single origin relationships.

So, you know, one farm, one country, you know, one family.

Right.

That we buy from.

So Perpetual Joy is our rotating subscription where we go through our single origins.

So you can pick the number of bags you want, pick the timing that you want, and then we take care of everything else.

So you can get it once a week, once a month, once every other week, whatever you want.

And then we in this last year added subscriptions.

We added a decaf subscription and then we added blends.

We also, we do two different size blends.

So we do a bulk size blend and then we do a regular smaller size blend.

So we found that it is funny, people actually mix and match our subscriptions.

So, you know, we got a lot of people who.

It's like, I drink regular coffee, but my spouse drinks decaf.

Or I want, you know, the perpetual joy, the single origins for my home.

But I like the bulk, you know, because I.

From my office or something like that.

So.

So yeah, we're.

We're continuing to kind of add.

We've got a few more that we might add where we actually now work.

Work with four fully owned women producers at Origin, which I Would love to just do a whole session on women in coffee and how important it is.

We will bring you back for that.

That sounds wonderful.

How important it is, you know, especially in some of these cultures, seeing women fully own.

So like 80% of coffee is.

The workers in coffee are women, but usually only about 30% of farms are actually owned by women.

So we're really excited that we have four fully owned women producers that we work with and have been working with for years.

So I would like to make that into a subscription just to see everybody like, you know.

Absolutely.

Producers.

Yeah, that's my dream.

Ben goes out and visits all of the farming partners and.

And keeps in touch with them.

But my dream is to go to the Congo and visit our women producers in the Congo because I just adore them and think they're amazing.

And so I want to go.

I know, yeah.

Is that a bossy sponsored trip?

Can we make this happen?

It's funny, I've had.

When I bring it up, because I keep bringing.

I brought it up for the last few years and I bring it up and every woman I brought it up with is like, I'll go.

And I thought, yeah, I think you all have a whole plane full of people.

I think that's a no brainer.

I am kind of not kidding.

I.

I actually would love to put together a.

A Rochester focused trip because these women have overcome a lot and I think they're super inspirational.

So, yeah, yeah, they inspire me.

So on top of all of the amazing things you've already said, your company is also a B Corp, which I don't think a lot of people know what that means.

So if you could tell us what that means and why you chose to go that route.

Sure.

So B Corp businesses are businesses that are for profit, but they're also existing to do good.

That's sort of their basic.

So famous B Corps would be like Tom's shoes.

Right.

You know, for every pair of shoes, you know, we help this other thing.

Eileen Fisher, Patagonia.

These are some of the pioneers of B Corp as a movement, and we chose to be a B Corp.

A lot of coffee roasters choose to be B Corps because was.

Let's see if I can make this really short.

So there's certifications within coffee.

Fair trade and organic are two kind of famous certifications that you can get as a coffee roaster.

But as soon as you start meeting coffee farmers, you start recognizing that fair trade isn't fair and organic isn't what you think it is.

You know, it could be what it is in the United States, but we're dealing with third world countries.

And so organic certification oftentimes is expensive for small farms and the larger farmers can purchase it.

And so those labels don't mean necessarily what people think they mean.

Fair trade wages is like the minimum and not even really the minimum.

It hadn't changed in like 10 or 15 years.

As far as like the.

You have to pay at least a dollar sixty, I think a pound.

We pay easily five times that amount.

So to put a fair trade label on something when we're paying way above that didn't make any sense.

And so B Corp comes in and says, okay, we'll investigate how you guys are working and are you working in a way that's ethical?

Are you working in a way that's sustainable?

And then if you are, then, then you can join the B Corp family.

So B Corp is really hard to get and takes months.

And it is literally like somebody looking through your underwear drawer.

They look at absolutely everything.

We had to prove not just what we were paying, but we had to actually prove what our farmers were paying their workers.

We had to prove what they were doing doing for soil conditions.

I mean like everything.

Wow.

We can.

So it was a pretty extensive.

For us, it was a pretty extensive, extensive certification.

Yeah.

B Corp is an international movement.

It's not a national movement, but there's, there's like a dozen here locally in the Rochester region.

And we're actually getting ready to launch a B Corp organization.

So I love that.

Stay tuned for that.

Yeah.

And thank you for that.

Congratulations.

Yeah, thanks.

Yeah, I knew the basis of it, but I never really thought about it on the third world country because I know a lot about like the, the way that, you know, tequila is labeled organic and, and those kinds of things and additive free and like those are all big terms in that industry.

And what that means in Mexico is different than what it means here.

And I didn't really think about it as far as like third world countries.

Yeah.

And like organic and fair trade and that kind of thing to put that label on it.

Yeah.

So I think that.

Thank you very much for, for explaining that.

And it sounds like it's like the perfect match for what you're doing.

Yeah.

And a lot of specialty coffee roasters like us choose to be a B Corp because of that because there's no direct trade certification.

It just doesn't exist.

And so it's really hard for us to talk about what we do and how we work when there's no easy explanation to it, and there's no easy certification.

So, yeah, B Corp becomes kind of the where we go.

So.

And it's a.

It's an amazing bank of resources.

Like, I, I've.

I'm only kind of scratched the surface, but they really do.

Once you're kind of in their family, there's a lot that they can do for you.

So, like I said, we're laughing.

Gull Chocolates is actually a B Corp.

And so Lindsay and I are trying to spearhead, trying to get the B Corps together, and that's our goal in 2025, to do a couple of events and to try to explain what B Corp is and answer questions.

So.

Nice.

Yeah, Very cool.

Well, gosh, we're out of time, of course, and I feel like we could still go on and on, but thank you so much, Kathy.

We love your story.

You're incredibly tenacious.

I love that you had.

You were ready to be done.

You got some affirmations, you wrote it down, you put it out into the universe, and it came true.

Coffee is truly about community, and you've encompassed.

Encompassed that from day one.

It continues to work for you.

Even though you don't have a space that is inviting people into your physical space now, you're still doing it.

You still have community and it's working for you.

You're still giving back.

And all of your pivots are intentional and not reactionary.

Even if they are coming out of conflict, you're using it and it's intentional and it's, it's just, it's truly inspirational.

You're remarkable and tenacious, and I really appreciate you being here.

Thank you so much.

Thank you, Kelly.

Oh, my gosh, you're gonna make me cry again.

I, I wasn't expecting to be so emotional on this call, but you guys are amazing, and thank you for letting me share and being interested in, you know, what we're doing and how we're doing it and, and that you guys, you know, are bringing together the women entrepreneurs, Entrepreneurs here in this region.

What an important thing to do.

I, I think there's just so much support that comes through you guys and, you know, the network that you're building.

So I'm a, I'm a big fan.

So thank you.

Thank you, Kathy.

Thank you.

Wow.

Talk about growth.

Like, I love where she came from, like a small town coffee shop in, like, a village to a downtown roastery where she's co packing and has these amazing relationships.

But the thing that stuck out for that interview was relationships, right?

Like the relationship she had that led her to have the small town coffee shop and that relationship and the relationship she built there that led her to the transition downtown.

And the relationship she built there led her to the, you know, large rotisserie roastery.

Roastery that she's in now.

And in that she's still building relationships.

She's got relationships with the farmers and the producers and.

Which is, which is coffee though.

I know.

She's affirming.

She's affirming.

She's affirming.

She's affirming.

I know.

I'm trying.

I'm trying.

I know.

And to see it work so well for her, I'm like, come on.

All right, fine.

Maybe you're not pen.

Do you want to write it in a different pen?

I have so many pens and I think you actually gave me this mug.

I think this mug is a gift from you.

It's the.

I'm trying not very.

I'm trying very hard not to connect with people right now.

Mug holds all my pens.

So I'm going to write my, my affirmations in all and with all of these pens and then I'll just see if maybe it is in fact that I have the wrong pen.

I have a lot of different color post it notes too.

So I'll just keep writing them.

Maybe different fonts.

Keep writing it.

Yeah, well, and I love the, you know, just that you have to stay in the pressure.

Like it's living in that pressure zone.

That hurt in my soul.

It hurt my soul.

Yeah.

Because as women, it is easier to fold and I.

It's not necessarily a gender thing, but we are taught very young not to push back.

Right.

And it's something that I think is more ingrained in our heads because of society pressuring us.

It doesn't mean it doesn't happen for men, but we are two fold and not.