I used to ask what is my calling?

And now I've been asking what is my calling in this season?

And so for success for me right now is being faithful to the seasonal

call and trusting that the big long-term call is outside of my

control and I'm working towards it.

Can redefining success?

Start with embracing unconventional leadership.

Welcome to Seat Go Create, where we explore this question and others with

Heather parody, a visionary fractional COO and show host whose mission

is to empower those that she calls unconventional leaders, individuals

ready to challenge norms and make a significant impact in this world.

Sounds like people that listen in here at Seat go create with a background as

unique as her approach to leadership.

She has traversed a path from being homeschooled in the Bible Belt to

spearheading transformative conversations with leaders across the globe.

You can bet I'll be asking about that.

Words that jump to mind when I think of Heather.

Authenticity, passion, impact they describe her.

Heather, welcome to.

So I've listened to a lot of your episodes.

I'm like, man, he's good at intros and you do not fail, man.

that is so on point.

Thank you.

Wow.

I'm glad to be here.

Thank you Heather.

I am, I'm excited about this for a lot of reasons.

I'm gonna share that in just a second, but let me give probably my

hardest que nah, this isn't gonna be my hardest question for you.

I'll go ahead and tell you that, but it's gonna be pretty tough.

If somebody ask you what you do, what do you usually tell people?

That used to be the hardest question for me to answer until

this past year where I gave myself permission to actually say out loud

what I know I actually do, which is I

Cool.

Tell me about it.

Let's go.

I help outside of the box folks, the big heart carry their

projects across the finish line.

That's it.

So I do that tactically through my business.

So fractional, COO, right?

We do a lot of the operations side, processes, systems, all the non-sexy

stuff and make sure people are doing what they're supposed to be doing so we can

carry projects across the finish line.

That's my business.

And then on the creative side, content side, that's more philosophical.

So what is it that's keeping you back from actually finishing what you start?

So how do you bring those two together?

It starts with the latter.

everything that we think is the thing is not the thing.

it's always an internal mental game.

I'm starting to become convinced literally everything, almost

everything you know, is really a spiritual, mental, emotional issue.

Or opportunity.

it starts there.

And then tactically, I think it's getting around the right people and willing to

admit when you don't know something, when pulling in other people's opinions.

I'm so stubborn.

I'm so stubborn, and every time I'm hitting a roadblock, I'm realizing

that I'm not allowing other voices and other wisdom in my head, and I'm

thinking I can do it all on my own.

And I've really been working on that this past year of learning from

other people and bringing them in.

and where does, there's a few terms that you use that I like.

I don't know if they push my buttons.

I don't know if they describe me or I don't know if it's something I aspire to.

But terms like unconventional leaders, you just said outside the box and so

let's get started talking a little bit about that because we were talking, we

were having cool conversation earlier about, some families and stuff like that.

and tell me, just tell me more unconventional leaders outside the

box, whichever one you wanna dive into.

Tell me more about that.

It started off where I was thinking only about anesthetics,

meaning when I looked at the landscape of personal development and leadership,

which is a bug that I got bit hard with a few years ago when I was in graduate

school, and I was just searching for what was next and didn't feel

comfortable with what I was doing.

Started listening to all the podcasts, doing all the things,

we do, and they were great.

it absolutely changed my life, but it was all a bunch of

rich, middle-aged white dudes.

Which is cool.

Like I have no issue with them.

You are not against, you're not against middle-aged white dudes.

no, no, Tim, no, you're we're good.

We're We're good.

I'm, might have been me now.

I'm not middle aged though.

It's.

But it's true.

I mean, there, there wasn't a lot of women in this space, or at least

ones that weren't, didn't just have female podcasts, which are

again, that's great, that's cool.

But it was just like this certain brand and I was in my early thirties, I had

a baby, you know, I'm a little quirky.

I'm just like the traditional, like Southern Christian Bible

belt mom who wears converses and listens to punk rock music.

it's still cool.

And I'm like, where's my place in this?

do I have a voice here?

So I started the show.

It was terrible.

It was like a microphone from Walmart and literally in my closet.

And I called it Unconventional Leaders because I wanted to find folks who

looked different than what I was seeing.

so I say all that to say, it started off as an anesthetic for me.

I wanted to see different representation in this conversation.

But as the years have gone by, my attitude towards it has shifted so much where it's

less about the anesthetic and more about a positioning in the world of approaching

things in an unconventional way.

So questioning, curiosity, and not from like a rebellious,

like screw the system, whatever.

I don't wanna ever come from that place because, if we're not pointing

to answers and solutions, we're just aiding to the problem, right?

But being willing to question stuff and follow your heart, and your

spirit and your soul, and what God's leading you towards, even

if it doesn't make sense on paper.

I think that's the first thing that I saw that I liked.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna flip the script on you just a little bit here.

I think I bumped into some of the stuff you were doing 4, 4, 5 years ago and

I went, Ooh, unconventional leaders.

I like that.

And I think had a Facebook, or at least a page or something like that.

And so I jumped in and you know what's interesting is I looked around and

I went, I'm not sure I belong here.

Really?

How come?

I think old white dude,

Interesting.

Wow.

I really, I kinda looked around.

I said, man, this is, this is an edgy place, which I love.

I'm drawn to it.

And maybe sometimes my kids, which my kids are your age, by the way,

you know that they're in your break.

I'm a grandfather and stuff like that.

And so I'm thinking maybe I'm not cool enough to be here.

Maybe this is where the cool

so sad.

That kind of breaks my heart a little bit.

I don't wanna recreate what I'm trying to fight against

Now I don't, and I actually don't mean that in a,

I didn't mean it to come across in a negative way, but I meant it to be.

It's like, ooh, this is a little bit of a different group.

first of all, do you notice what Spellcheck does to

the word unconventional?

no, I haven't.

What does it do?

Check.

I'm it, I'm.

Interesting.

That would be an awesome video of like spellcheck going back.

That'd be a good brand, man.

I think about it.

Yeah.

Just gave you some content idea there.

so yeah, that was, it was fascinating to me.

But this is the thing I wanna start with first and then I'm, I'll

just dive into some other things.

The thing I've observed over the last handful of years and time might

be a little bit, out outside my scope here, I can't recall, but you,

you had unconventional leaders and then, and then I saw some things.

I know we've had a guest, Glen, I think you've done some work with Glen Lu.

Yeah, he, that's, I, that's, I think it's been a few years ago.

And, and then all of a sudden I see NFTs

pop in here, which I'm, which I'm, I don't do a lot with NFTs, but

I'm big in, invested in crypto and things like that, and I'm going,

well, that's kind of interesting.

And then I saw something else.

So there's been a lot of what I would call transitions.

Oh yeah.

Or pivots, there's a lot of words we could throw out here.

And and one of our big themes here is redefining success.

So I'm gonna throw all of that in the pot and hand it over to you and say, how

are you defining success today, Heather, what's, where's all this coming from?

And where do you think it might be going?

it's so fun because when I, alluded to this.

Early stages of getting into personal development, learning business and trying

to build something from the ground up.

you read all these books that give excellent advice, talking about

like a vision and a map and a plan and five years and all that.

And I did all of that stuff and I think it has its place.

Uh, definitely.

However, one thing I didn't read a lot about that I've been learning the hard way

is seasonal calling and shifts and that, I think it's John Maxwell talk about like

failing forward and how the more action you take, the more clarity you receive.

But that only comes through a lot of iterations and a lot of failure.

And so normally we're like, oh my God, I did this and it didn't work.

I'm a failure.

Instead of realizing, if you look throughout history, if you read people's

biographies, that is the natural system and process in which things evolve.

And so when you read, you know, share all that over the past few

years, and man, I'm sure you know.

That's not that half of it.

There's so much more embedded in that, those few years I think.

Yeah.

That's the process.

that's figuring it out.

and I'm saying all this to say, if you are working on something and you feel a

shift, and I think there's a difference between being unfaithful to something

and calling it quits too soon, and you know, in your gut what you're doing.

But if you feel like embarrassed almost to shift directions a little bit, I

would encourage you to just leap into it.

'cause one thing I've been asking myself lately, I used to ask what is my calling?

And now I've been asking what is my calling in this season?

And so for success for me right now is being faithful to the seasonal

call and trusting that the big long-term call is outside of my

control and I'm working towards it.

Yeah, I may, we may dive into your Bible belt upbringing

here, but that word calling is

that Yeah, we'll do it, we'll do it, we'll do it with caution.

but that word calling, I think, messes with us.

I think and, I think some of that, if it's not Bible belt, it's.

Mindset about it.

we have this thought because we look at some people and they're

called, you know, at birth and little Johnny, he's gonna be a preacher.

Like so and so was, and all this kind of stuff.

And I've actually changed the words for me.

This is just for me, I'm not spouting this to everyone else, but

I changed the word to assignment.

I'm looking for my assignment in God's Kingdom today.

And the reason why is because I'm, now, we were talking about this, right?

I'm 60 years old and I feel like I'm just getting started,

but.

I've also been through the Ringer . So what, which story do you want to hear?

And so I like that seasonal.

I think we're here, there's seasons, there's times that we go through

and I think that's what I love and I think that's why we try to

tap into that here with, you know, how are you defining success now?

And it's sometimes nebulous.

It's tough, it's vague and all of that.

So.

Alright, so let's dive just a little bit,

Sure.

maybe more than a little bit.

I'm an open

I think sometimes our, faith in our foundation is one of the

things that screws us up in that area.

What are your thoughts?

Yes.

Yeah.

Um, you know, growing up, my intention, my calling, if you would, I always

said, even since I was a little girl, that I wanted to be in ministry.

Like I would, I played church more than I played house.

I would set up the teddy bears and I would preach to them, and

it was like on my mind, 2, 4, 7.

that's the first thing that I pursued when I turned 18.

I went all in the, what I'm doing now was never a thought, and honestly

it was very painful going into this entrepreneurial path because

yeah, it's cool, but for me it was.

Plan B when Plan A was more ministerial or what I considered

to be ministry at the time.

And so leaving that, leaving that context, and I'm happy to

answer any question with all that.

I just don't wanna derails too much.

Um, there was a huge grieving process for me where I felt like I didn't have a

calling anymore, that I was disappointing God or I wasn't living to my full

potential because it was outside of this construct that I had built in my mind.

And honestly, it was taught to me, and it hasn't been, but

just a couple years, honestly.

I mean, even, you've known me longer than it's, than it's been I've

been working so hard on finding my contribution, calling assignment,

whatever you wanna call it, through this work, and taking it as seriously

as I did when I was within the church.

And we say that, and it sounds cute, like, oh, you know, outside the four

walls, but when you really wanted that?

Um, I felt like a failure a lot, especially in God's eyes.

Am am I doing the right thing, et cetera.

But I will say outside now, and this is just my experience, I'm not telling people

they don't need to go into ministry or leave the church or anything like that.

I have felt, honestly, so much more aligned with God and so much more solid

in my relationship with the Lord than I've ever felt in my life because there's

no middle man in between me and him.

There's no church, there's no organization, there's no

person, there's no position.

It's literally me and God now, and nobody can take that away from me.

I like that.

as we travel around, we were talking about, you were asking before we started

recording, how often do you travel?

And we travel, go stay places and move along.

And one of the big questions that people ask is about where do you go to church?

Yeah.

And the short answer is we usually don't.

Mm-Hmm?

Go to a church that most people define it as a church

and people will ask, are you this or that, or denomination or whatever.

And my answer is, it's somewhat snarky, but it fits me is roughly what

you just said in a much nicer way.

As I'm directly connected, I don't really go through anybody or anything like that.

I just sit down and I converse, as best I can

Yep.

not figured out or anything like that.

And you know what, a lot of people don't like that response

No Yeah, man.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's

what are we trained to do?

What are what's drilled in us?

If we are someone of faith, what are you supposed to do?

Be controlled by something else and not God by a

manmade organization or entity.

And if we can't control you, that scares us.

So of course it's met with anger and frustration.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so it, I think that's part of the journey that many of us go on

is hopefully coming to that realization.

It's, I think it's challenging, but you, you kind of had, I mean, almost

like a double, triple whammy of it.

We homeschooled our kids

too.

And so when I'm reading my, yeah, it's like awesome.

what are some of the things that you're still maybe trying to, I don't know,

purge, clean up and all from the way you were raised versus, and I, 'cause

I wanna look in the positive too.

What are some things that are so cool and such strengths

because of that, that you're.

Oh man.

I think the first thing that came to mind of what I'm questioning and trying

to purge is my instinctual response to judge something as right or wrong.

I instantly, I will make, I am.

is this book cover good or yes or no?

Is this?

And it's just this quick quick instinctual.

Assessment of categories, this is this, this is this.

Now there's a lot right that we like, well, Heather, obviously this is this and

obviously this is this, and that's not what I'm really talking about so much.

It's just like when getting to the point where we're even questioning

the, hmm, how do I say this?

The context in which we even look at things, you know, so we're not even just

questioning this and this anymore, we're questioning the lens in which we look.

And I know that can get dangerous because there's also to, I believe in

God and I believe that there is a, the universal laws that he's put in place

that need to be honored and there is right and wrong, and there is good

and evil and et cetera, et cetera.

So it's been interesting for me trying to navigate This questioning phase

and trying to release judgment and really operate from a sense of love

while still holding onto, uh, morals and values and some kind of system.

Because you know, when you get into kind of what the cool kids call new

age, whatever, you learn about different energies and how there's like a feminine

energy and there's a masculine energy.

And essentially all that means is there's structure and order, which is good.

And then there is flow and freedom, which is good.

And sometimes we demonize one or the other when really God created both.

It's if not to navigate, that's been really hard.

as far as what's good, I love the message of hope that is in the message of Jesus,

is that there is redemption, that there is life, that things can be restored.

That gets me hype all day long.

I believe that with every part of my being, and that's something I hope.

That I never let go of.

There's a word that's really thrown around a good bit.

The word is deconstruction.

That I hear it.

I try to understand it.

My wife and I, just in our prayer time, we actually wonder if we've done quite

a bit of it ourselves and I don't know that I think it's that bad of a word.

I think I've heard you use it a few times on some interviews I've listened to.

You do.

And, but I actually think it has a lot of different meanings.

if someone's going through what they call deconstruction.

What would you wanna share with 'em?

What do you wanna tell them?

What, what's some encouragement or guidance might even be a better word

because it's a, it's a weird word.

I hate how people are changing up words in our role today, but,

You know, I've noticed as a mom, I've been noticing all these

subtle ways that I'm conditioning my kids without realizing it, and I have to stop

myself a lot of times where I'll just blow off an answer of kind of that's the way

it is, or You need to do this and that.

And I'm imposing a lot of, and that man, I don't know, there's an element

too where I'm like, okay, you're their mom and you need to guide them.

But I'm not guiding them to think as much as I want to do that, like for

them to come to their own conclusions.

And every time I do that, I think about How that is what

happened with me in religion.

And I used to be really angry going through the deconstruction process.

and now that I'm doing the same things to learn behavior that people

don't realize that they're doing.

But the repercussions of that is we build of quote, quote, faith on something

that was never really our own right.

And so deconstruction, it's normal to be angry going through it.

Um, on the other side of it, there's gonna be a lot less anger.

There's a quote, I'm gonna mess it up, but Jen Cillo, Serato, whoever

wrote the, I don't even remember her book's called It's from Louis Howell,

one of Louis Howell's interview.

She was talking about when folks.

get mad at you when you're changing and evolving, that they're actually

grieving somebody that they love.

So they loved that old you.

And then when you're shedding it, they're grieving that person.

And that's where a lot of the anger comes from.

But all that passes, um, and it's sucks.

But man, I'm so glad I went through it.

'cause like I said, I think I have more, I know I have way more questions about God

and I'm not as sure about a lot of stuff, but at least I know the little bit that

we do have together is so freaking real.

I think one thing that I noticed because.

My wife and I, we did things different like from the get go.

We've been married 35 years and so I think what we also did is we made some

people around us uncomfortable because they felt as if it was an indictment on

Hmm.

the way we were raised or, or something.

And you know, we all are dealing with whatever we're dealing with.

I don't think it was intended that way.

And we may have said some things that may have been insensitive and all, and

so I do think there's a lot playing out.

But I love what you said about your children because we've had conversations

with our grown children and.

One of them at times said, will say things like, well, this is the way I am because

and, and it's sort of joking, but I don't think it's totally, you know, I'm screwed

up here because of something you did.

And

my wife will take that and it'll bother her.

But I, my mindset is like, don't put that on me.

Say I, we did the best we could with what we had.

And you know what, it was pretty darn good.

You're on your own now.

You work it out with God but that's just my leadership

a different between a dad and a mom.

It's, she's nurturing and loving on 'em and I'm treating

'em like, no y'all, it's all y'all.

so that's a whole nother issue but I.

the thing that is fascinating to me, and I wanna dig a little bit on this,

is at what point were you, I'm gonna use a word that's not a bad word, but I'm

gonna use the word addicted, but addicted a Heather 2.0 to a better Heather, to

a, something better than you are today.

Because one of my favorite books is Mindset by Carol Dweck, where she

talks about there's really two types of people we shouldn't group people,

we have to be very careful grouping.

But she says there really are two people.

There's fixed mindset and there's growth mindset, and.

As far back as I can remember, I was always, and sometimes too

a detriment thinking future.

And I've had to dial it down and think more current.

can you think back, at what point were you like always looking to

the next thing or what can I do better or what can I learn or,

man.

that is an addiction?

That is an addiction by the way, you know that, don't you?

it is, and I really resonate with what you said.

there is such a light and a dark side to it.

I'm, I, I always, Brian gets I'll say he gets tickled by me, not frustrated.

'cause I'm just like, this is the way I am.

I've all, I don't remember.

I'm like you.

I don't remember a time that I wasn't Obsessed with, I don't wanna say obsessed,

but interested in growth and movement.

I think there is a part of my personality that's in it.

I will say that I was heavy, heavy, heavy and steered all of

that into the church at one point.

I mean, everything into that.

And then reading personal development, it was a sharp turn where I had to

figure out a place for autonomy with faith because With what I grew up

in, it was a huge denial of self and almost a martyrdom type vibe.

and so shifting into personal development, there was a little bit of tension

there because I'm like, okay, how great are you actually supposed to be and

how much really is depending on you?

And so that's been interesting to try to navigate.

I would probably pinpoint your question, although it has been in me since the

beginning, starting a business and getting into personal development back

in 2000 and seven-ish, I wanna say.

No, that's a lie.

2012.

Okay.

Doing the math wrong.

that's what really started shifting things for me.

But it was really uncomfortable, like I said.

Because of that, the kind of, the way I'll call it the

sacrificial, but it's, but it's also a false, sacrificial mindset that we have.

My wife and I would joke about it at times.

We, we still remember going to dinner with a couple when we

were newly married, so it's.

Where I don't even know truly if I was saved at the point.

I, I probably said I was, but probably wasn't.

I got saved in a business function shortly after we got married.

So I'm different.

I didn't do the church thing and all that kind of stuff.

So business is where the mission field is for me and always has been.

I don't, church world is just church world.

I go there and I go, I don't even, I don't even know what's going on here.

this is like weird.

but we met with this couple and they, I remember this statement.

They said, we are worms just passing through this earth.

And I remember thinking to myself, I can guarantee you I am not a

worm passing through this earth.

Now, I may have thought higher of myself than I should, but, and I think that

is baked into a lot of, I, we went to Bible school for a couple years

and it was, I call it a dickens tale.

It was the best of times.

can you say where you went?

I'm curious

it out.

up in the,

It was up in the mountains of Colorado and all, and it was, a lot of good

people, a lot of baked in religion and like you've talked about the hierarchy.

Is this the most virtuous thing you could do is going to full-time ministry

are actually full-times mission,

Mm-Hmm.

probably overseas is number one.

And then full-time ministry pastor or teacher, preacher

and all that kind of stuff.

And, and that I, I kept looking at those people and I'm going, I don't think so.

And so anyway, I think that is part of what a lot of people that were raised

heavy in it have to either come to terms with, I was gonna say overcome,

but come to terms with, so what was the business that you started in 2012?

I was a photographer.

I did freelance photography.

Uh, and it just, I was in grad school.

My husband was, starting his military journey and I had a kid

and it was just the best job to have in the position that I was in.

'cause I literally just take my camera out on a Tuesday afternoon

if I could, and shoot families.

I did weddings, I did all kinds of stuff.

And it actually ended up growing because I was learning the business side.

I was a good photographer, but I was really good at social

media and figuring out all that stuff.

And I was like, oh, if you can do that with photos, what

else can you do that with?

And that's what really looped me into all this was just a little side gig

do you call yourself a photographer or was it just a means

to an end or a means to the next step?

I did at the time.

I did it for, I would say about five years.

I had, some pretty good success towards the end of it.

And here, you know, back to seasonal calling, you asked me that question and

here's my camera that I just finished using before I got on the call with you.

And now I'm doing videos with the same equipment.

I never would've known how to set all this stuff up and aperture and, all

the equipment that I would need and lighting had it not been those years.

And so there's so many things that you're learning right now in

this season that you have no idea what you're gonna use later on.

The reason I ask is our son called himself, he wanted

to do movies, went out to LA and calls called himself a photographer.

He's a hundred K plus over on Instagram now rocking with a bunch of things he's

got going on, but it's kind of similar.

We had a conversation not too long ago where he says, you know, I

don't, I dunno about photography.

I think.

Hmm.

Things like that.

So he's kind of discussing some transitions, but still super talented

as far as visual and things like that.

which I think that you definitely are too.

So, so the progression photography, it opened up the doors with,

obviously it gave you visions of things that you probably hadn't seen.

and then this unconventional leaders started.

I gotta ask this before we get too far down the road.

At what point did the NFT thing pop in?

what was going on there other than it was the hottest thing around

for what, about 10 minutes maybe.

It came from a natural place.

The most pure, natural, I mean it makes me sick how, you know, you can just

try and beat your head against the wall with some things and other things you

don't try and it's just like So I was at a conference and met a friend there

and we both were laughing 'cause we had both had just bought an NFT from Gary

Vaynerchuk and I don't recommend this.

I'm glad I personally did it.

But you know, we trusted Gary back to the branding piece and I still do.

We've been following him for years where he said, Hey, I'm

coming out with the NFT project.

You need in on this.

I bought it without knowing what it was.

Literally my friend did the same thing.

So we said, what we should just hop on a mic.

We were both seasoned podcasters.

We knew what we were doing.

And document us figuring out what we just bought.

No other thought than that.

We get on a microphone.

He's eating Cheetos.

I have Google pulled up and we're just having a conversation

on a microphone about what is an NFT, what's the blockchain?

What's Web3?

I didn't know anything about crypto.

Nothing.

we're talk.

We're newbie.

Newbie.

Well, we just so happened to do that in August of 2021, starting an

NFT show in August in 2021, and us faithfully doing it into January, 2021.

We had a quarter million downloads January alone, and we were like, oh.

Oops, Oops, oops.

We didn't mean to.

Now what?

And so we did it for, I wanna say it was eight months, reached

over a million downloads.

we turned into a literal business with what we were able to do with it, because

we sold some pretty premium sponsorships and closed some pretty interesting stuff.

Um, it just so happened he and I both made a decision that we had different

goals and that we needed to stop the show before everything plummeted.

so it was just kinda like perfect timing.

I think there's still stuff we could have done with the

brand, but, man, it was my life.

I closed down the group.

I closed down my show.

I went all in because when those moments happen, you gotta jump.

And I did

What'd you learn from it?

never start a business too soon.

even if things are working, don't get into a legal entity.

Don't I, it's weird because I'm glad I took risks creatively.

I had never entered into a business partnership with anybody before.

And the way that we did it, I'm not, I understand the circumstances were, out

there, but I won't ever do that again.

It's entering into a marriage.

When you put your name on paper with anyone else, you're

entering into a marriage.

I will always enter that with reverence moving forward.

I also learned that you have to be very careful with your words when you

are on a microphone and making sure that you are constantly, it is weird.

It's a weird balance between not being fearful.

But also too, using wisdom, especially when it comes to finances and money.

Now, we always said we're not giving it financial advice.

We were very open with, Hey, all this stuff could plummet.

We did all that with integrity.

I still feel some weight of that though, because even though we never said, Hey,

do this, do this, do this, do this.

It was such a tricky market and a lot of people lost money, and even though

I can stand before God one day and say, I'd hope I didn't cause any of

that, it's still waiting on me, man.

It is tough.

Part of our story was real estate and we had investors and all heading

into oh eight and that probably.

Hurt my soul really bothered me.

Identity-wise and all, as much as almost anything was that I had gone

and raised money and gotten money from people and I knew that it

wasn't going to be taken care of.

So that's, I think that tells you a lot about a person that

tells me a great deal about you.

That that is one of the takeaways from it.

and, and I will say as an executive coach, one of the things that I

do very often is clean up messes.

When people get into partnerships like that, it's tough.

You brought it, I mean, you said it.

This is the takeaway.

I want people listen.

Yeah.

It's a podcast.

Yeah.

We're just getting on the mic, we're talking and all that kind stuff.

But it's a marriage.

It's a marriage with a lot of tentacles that can, some issues and things.

we're still walking through things.

we've been closed for now.

rich is a great guy, so I'm not saying anything

about, you the great dude.

It's just a pain in the blessed booty.

You know what I mean?

And it's not, you really have to ask yourself, is this worth getting married?

Because that's what happened.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so anyway, that's interesting.

All right, so you begin transitioning and then all of a sudden, a few weeks ago, I

see the new and Improved Unconventional Leader podcast, which I've binged through.

I had a, had about an eight hour drive last week.

I've listened to about four or five episodes.

Listened to, the guy that worked at Pixar, which is super cool.

Rob Bell, which I mean, talk about a great get because controversial,

but I love that type of controversy myself, with Rob and stuff, especially

if anybody's around church world, they would, he might mess with him.

tell me about this iteration and.

Thank you for listening.

I really appreciate that I have been uh, dancing around how I really feel

about things in the online space, since I started really, like I told you, I

transitioned from kind of ministry church.

very strong.

Conviction of the way things were.

And then when all that started, here's your word, deconstructing.

In the online space, I would allude to different things I felt and so

forth, but I was, I've always been hyper afraid of offending people.

I don't wanna offend you, there's that mama coming out in me, you know, uh,

it was last year, I wanna say it was at the Summit of Greatness Lewis house,

and I was sitting in the auditorium and I felt really strong in my spirit

that God said, you are entering into your life's work this next season.

And I'm not saying it's this show, but I feel a shift in me to start

having those conversations I've been afraid to have going deeper.

My shows have always been very short.

We're doing it a little bit longer.

and just a non expectation make a show for me.

And, going back to the unconventional part, I've never let that go.

And that's been interesting too, is sometimes you lay things down,

you can pick 'em back up again.

And so that's where we're at with this.

I'm, I'm, I'm letting go of the need to monetize this or grow this.

I had a coach earlier this year, it was set me free man.

but he encouraged me.

He said, you can separate your clients from your audience and that's okay.

And, uh, you know, in the online space, build a funnel and drive leads this way.

For me personally, I haven't yet, found a better way for leads in at least a

service-based business than word of mouth.

So that's worked fine for me.

I don't need to necessarily create content for the folks that

I'm Working within my business.

I don't want to, I don't wanna talk about operations and process on Instagram.

I do wanna talk about pop culture and spirituality and the four

agreements and those forth.

And it's fine if these folks never buy a thing from me.

'cause honestly, they don't have nothing to sell 'em right now.

And it feels real freeing right now.

So.

What does it do for especially, this, we'll even

tie this in back to what we were talking about earlier with the way

you were brought up and raised.

What does it do when all of a sudden you're creating?

And, I've got some questions about your creative process here shortly.

But what does it do when you're creating and dollar signs?

Keep . Ching ching ching in around your head or you, you look at something

you're creating and you're thinking to yourself, this has to have ROI.

It's gotta have return be because I've been through a similar process as

you have with the coaching that I do.

What I'm doing with this show, and just like you said, I've come

to terms that this right here, this show for me, it's for me.

It's so that I can reach out to Heather and say, Hey, can you

have a one hour conversation?

Now it's good and I think people are gonna listen in and it's gonna be

awesome and they're gonna get stuff.

It's for me.

So talk about money and how it can mess, especially people maybe that

were raised a little bit the way we were raised in church world or

you were raised in church world.

does that add anything to it or does it matter?

I think what's coming up for me when you're talking is this

strong realization since newbie, since the NFT show, and that was where, and

Rich has talked about this publicly too, we had a split in the road where he's

an entrepreneur and I am a creative, now I am entrepreneurial, right?

I have a business so I can go and create and seek and I, that's the

reason I have a business is it gives me a life of freedom to explore.

Now, other folks create, because they're entrepreneurs and

they're using that as a tool.

For their entrepreneurship.

And when I figured that out, and it was through the brimstone and the

hard stuff with Rich, I was like, oh.

So now when I create, I don't, the only ROI, and I'll talk about

this in a second, is the reach that I struggle with, the money.

I've let go of that.

I've made money through content.

This, we made a lot, quite a bit of money from the show through

our sponsorships and stuff.

Um, I didn't feel better about that.

If anything else, it added so much pressure to the creative work.

It didn't feel good to dollar signs don't really come up for me with this.

now what I struggle with is keeping my ego out with reach and likes

and comments and all of that.

I'm constantly having to check myself on that to, you know, I say I.

that I wanna make an impact through my work and et cetera, but I get

frustrated if something, doesn't pop the way this other thing worked.

Or I'll be like, okay, what do we need to do to, fix this hook?

and all that's good.

The tactics are good if they're a tool again, as a part as opposed to the God.

And that's what's been interesting for me over the past little bit.

So it's not money for me, it's the ego of, views and likes and comments, which

I would love to sit here and say, oh Tim, I don't struggle with that, but I do.

And, sometimes I need to put all this stuff away and step

away and keep my phone off.

I've been doing that a lot lately.

Just putting the phone down 'cause it doesn't matter.

I dunno if that answers your question,

does some of that reach, does some of that impact your mood?

Do you notice your mood going up and down based on, oh, this one?

Look, I was talking to my son the other day.

He, I.

Literally threw up a reel.

And when I say threw it up, he took an image and put a, not a

cartoon, a graphic fire going.

So it was a still image.

And, you know, I don't know what viral means today, today's world, but you

know, he's, he's, added like 5,000 followers from that reel on Instagram.

and I asked, I kinda asked the same question.

I said, are you in a better mood than you were last week when the one that

you put up that you thought was awesome, didn't, and you know what he said, I'll

say this, and then you could respond.

He said, it actually bothers me.

He says, 'cause I'm not sure exactly how to duplicate.

Oh, I could kick it with him.

Like I, yeah, I get that a lot.

Um, I don't.

So my mood, I don't think it affects my mood as much.

What I've been aware of is my temptation to alter the content based

on what I know works versus what I feel like I'm being called to say.

Let me give you an example.

I know what works right now in my reels is very tactical information

coming from a celebrity's mouth.

If I say that, um, who's somebody famous right now?

my mind's just gone blank.

I can't remember.

One famous person, Jim Carrey.

Jim Carrey says that if you do these three things, you'll get

a thousand dollars in a month.

1, 2, 3, that will pop.

Now, that's hard to find that information, but what I.

want to say on this is I always wanna tie things back to like spirituality

or personal development, and that's the non-sexy part of the content

that people don't really wanna hear.

And so there's a huge temptation for me to be like, Ugh, what works?

Versus what am I supposed to say right now?

Um, that's my biggest struggle.

And I did, I think I looked at your Instagram feed last night and you,

there's definitely that style where Trevor Noah and others, you're so that, so you

must be hitting on, on something there.

There's a word, and I don't know if it's a good word that I introduced

you with, or a bad word, because, 'cause I heard something that you,

that might have contradicted, but there's the word authenticity.

That's a weird word.

And I think in our culture today, and th this is, I'm about to be cynical,

I'm just letting people know there's about to be a cynical statement

that's gonna lead to a question.

My cynical statement is, it amazes me how hard people are working.

At being authentic In our world we're in today, they are working extremely

hard and, but I actually, I saw in description of you the word authentic,

but then I also, there was something I was listening to where you, I think it

was a short or reel that you did that was something about authentic isn't

what our, isn't what we're shooting for.

Sometimes we need to make a change.

We need to adjust, we need to be somebody else, not ourselves.

So talk about authenticity.

man, that, that hit a button.

When I posted that, I got so many dms.

Some people loved it.

Some people were mad at me.

What was.

I was trying to say through that is everyone says be authentic,

which is good to a degree.

We wanna be honest, we wanna be ourselves, we want to be transparent because

we don't want, everybody can agree.

Everybody's nodding their heads.

Of course.

Where it gets interesting is when we use that as an excuse

to roll over other people.

Um, do what we know is not right.

Be lazy.

Make excuses, because I'm being quote, authentic.

So what the intention of the video was, a call to a higher self and who you

really are deep down who, not that worm crawling through the ground, but you know.

The great Tim and the great heather that's inside of us.

And that is the most authentic version of you.

Now, that doesn't mean that I'm not gonna sit here on your podcast and

say, I struggle with ego Sometimes I struggle with insecurity.

I struggle, being, making sure that I'm being in alignment with my work and

doing the right things that's authentic.

I hope it is, but be coming in and, telling my kids that I just

don't feel like making them dinner tonight because your mom's tired.

You know what I mean?

come on, And I think, especially, not to get like this generation blah, blah, blah.

'cause that's a bunch of bss, all generations have their thing.

It's popular now.

Um, and it's unique to this time because we haven't had social media

before where it's elevating this.

Sense of self where it is all just about you and your feelings.

And again, that's good, but now we're overcompensating where I think the message

needs to be counterbalanced with humanity and empathy and awareness that we're

all a whole and what I do affects you.

think one of the, my measures of success with social media is, we were

talking about this before we clicked on, is that with the post I did recently, I

was able to connect with your dad, which was so kind of cool, and we had a little

dialogue back and forth and hopefully encouraged each other and stuff like that.

That's, I think that's a good value there.

Uh, related to leadership, content creation, anything

like that in your mind they are definitive and they are absolutes?

Or are we getting to a place where most things are fluid?

I don't know if that's the right word.

And then, the, based on how you respond to this, I've got

a follow up question to that.

So anything that you're, like,

as you've gone through your journey, 'cause you've got, this is a

success journey we're going through.

anything that you're going, like this is solid.

And if the answer's no, that's okay.

What?

You asked the best questions.

This is so deep.

I have to think about this for a minute.

While you're thinking, let me follow up with it.

Here's the reason, here's the reason why

Yeah.

the reason why I asked that.

Is because the more I go through this journey, the less I recognize.

I know.

And,

and I went through that personal development phase that you did where

you have someone like me, I could guarantee you they looked like me.

That stood up.

'cause I used to do this.

And I would say, there are three keys to success and here are

those three keys to success.

It's do this, do this, do this, and whatever you do, never do this.

And I'm getting to where I can't think of any of the, now I, there's things

that I can recommend and say this might, but anyway, that, that's the.

The depth of the question because, and it, and the reason I'm

asking it, it is generational.

I've got someone here that's not my generation and I do love to kind of see

where you are with that, so it's too deep.

We could, I

No, I love

favorite color.

It's great.

It's great.

I think what came up for me, the only thing that I'm sure of right now is our

makeup as humans and what we want and desire, I don't think is questionable.

I don't think we can question that.

We wanna be loved, we desire belonging.

There's a deep need for contribution and purpose.

And for me, that's the only solid thing.

Now how we go about achieving those and doing it, I think that's where it gets.

Foggy and interesting and different people's perception of, you know,

how they feel belonging and all that.

But the truth is we all need that.

And I think that's what ties us together and connects us, and we

have to remember, besides that, man, I don't know, that's, I'm gonna be

thinking on that for like a week.

The, the thing that I like about what you're doing with

unconventional leaders is that I think this is really the root of the question

is that I think you're probably tapping into the individuality of leadership.

Hmm.

I think we want to formulate, I'm an engineer.

I'd love to come up with the three or the seven or the whatever, and I could do it,

but I could tell you I'm getting less and less confident in those threes and sevens.

I'm getting less and less confident in the always or nevers, and I'm 60.

I'm a couple years, I'm a lot of years older than you.

I'm old to be your dad.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that's the beauty of unconventional leaders.

I think we've seen leaders for way too long, and they're, many of 'em are my

generation that they have absolutes and those absolutes, they are saying it

with loud, authoritative voices, and I think people are getting tired of that.

Yeah.

And so I'm seeing you and maybe we're trying to hear, I don't know,

I'm seeing some people trying to uh, unpack, I hate that word, but unpack or,

or bust it up or something like that.

And, and I love what I'm hearing there.

tell me some things.

Gimme a, I know you aren't thinking too far ahead.

With what you're doing there, it's kind of unfolding.

I, I can sort of tell if I'm wrong and you've got a five-year plan, you could let

me know, but seems like it's unfolding.

What are some things in the very not too distant horizon if somebody's listening

in, maybe in early 2024 that, that they might get to a look for if they jump over

and listen in at Unconventional Leaders.

Yeah.

Media.

media.

Media, that's the future right now.

wanted to, for several years get more involved and intentional with

not only what I create, but helping other folks on that side of things.

I think it's a really power, it is such a powerful tool that we can

use to reach folks and to give hope.

I mean, like it or not, I could argue both sides, but it's here to stay.

And digital identity is a really interesting conversation about people

finding themselves in this other world.

And whether that's right or wrong, it's the truth.

And we've gotta figure out how to bring light and hope into those places.

So right now it's through Instagram feeds or podcast feeds.

when my kids get older it gives me anxiety even thinking about it.

But, it's through these games and these avatars and so forth.

And again, I'm not saying it's right or wrong, it's just the way that it is.

So I want to figure out more ways to bring this message, un unconventional leadership

of Hope God love Light into these places.

Right now, this is just through storytelling and reels.

I recently started doing some scripting work for different people, which has

been really fun trying to help them with their, short form and stuff.

So more of that man.

the word bridge has been on my heart a lot lately, and I've always felt that way.

growing up I was one of those folks 'cause of my personality that I could

roll in different groups pretty well.

And then even two at my age as a millennial, 'cause I'm not young anymore.

So I'm this weird bridge age where I can get folks older than

me and then I also get Gen Z.

And so through the work, my hope is to be able to be a bridge between

different worlds and more connection.

That's why the reels I do Trevor Noah, and then talk about the four

agreements, because it's a bridge.

Folks aren't looking for this, they're looking for this.

If we could bridge these two together, they get to this, right?

I'm sorry, audio folks.

I'm doing an analogies you can't see.

Um, that's really,

watching in, yeah.

Yeah.

that's messy.

Tim.

I hope that made sense.

But media is on my heart.

Storytelling, and then hopefully using that as a bridge to reach folks.

I think that is good and I see that, and part of the evidence

of that, Heather, is that we're having this conversation here, is that you

and I are conversing in, different generations, probably different a a

lot of different, but yet I said, Hmm, I wonder if, I wonder if Heather would

come on the show with us and chit chat and so I think that's evidence

that you're moving in that direction.

Yeah.

Bridge connector.

You know what, whatever words, I think bridge is a great visual, but I.

Thank you

I, the word peacemaker is this word that

keeps popping up in my mind.

It's a little bit more of a, of a biblical word, but peacemaker is weird.

There's a lot of ugly in the world.

And I think it was Google that used to have a don't be evil is their, one of

their underlying mottoes or whatever.

I'm not gonna be one to judge, but they may not be adhering to that.

Totally.

Now.

And I think with all these tools, like you're saying, I just, I

don't want us to use it for evil.

I want us to use all this for good.

And it seems like that's what you're trying to do.

Is that right?

I sure hope so, man.

I sure hope so.

I'm so grateful I'm entering into this work in my mid

thirties, late thirties now.

it's interesting.

I can't imagine not having any kind of foundation being handed all this stuff,

but also too, you know, I mean, they're not gonna know anything different.

it's just a different world we're coming into and instead of being fearful

and afraid and pointing fingers and fighting it, I feel like Us older folks.

'cause I'm gonna say I'm older too, Tim.

I am.

Like, I'm 37, that's okay.

I know you're shaking your head but for the folks I roll with, I am like,

they're so young and, uh, I don't know.

People are looking for guides and people who go before them and light the way, and

I hope, hope, God, that I can do that.

Yeah, there's a real deficit of hope out there and I think

some of us are trying to deliver that.

Heather, where can people find you?

Give us, give us all your coordinates.

I think we've mentioned the podcast, but podcast Instagram

seems like pretty high areas.

Tell us that.

And then one more question before we finish.

Sure.

At Heather parody pretty much everywhere except for LinkedIn and Snapchat

because I can't bridge those two worlds.

That's just too much for me.

Yeah.

Are, do you do much on YouTube?

We're starting to, I'm putting a little bit more attention

into putting the podcast on YouTube.

I'm editing everything, I do all the edits.

so it's slow and it's clunky, but 'cause it takes a long time.

But yeah, we have a YouTube channel.

Okay, good.

Yeah.

Make sure everyone go check that out and right when you finish here,

go over to unconventional leaders.

It's a, it's really a good fit for some of the conversations.

A lot of the conversations that we have here, Heather, we are

seek, go create those three words.

I think you mentioned 'em a few times that we were talking.

We'll let you choose one over the other two.

My final question, one, seek, go or create and why?

My instinct is to say go or create, but I'm gonna pick, seek.

Okay.

It's probably my least favorite word out of all three of those, but

it's the one that I've been really drawn to lately because I'm like,

yo, if you wanna go and you wanna create, you gotta first seek, right?

Curiosity, openness, student mentality, childlike, Lord Jesus.

That's good.

That was, there's a reason the Lord gave 'em to me in that order because

I used to go, go, go and then create.

And he said, I need you to slow down a little bit before you

me.

go.

So Heather, thank you for this conversation,

man.

I knew I would love it and I did.

go check out Unconventional Leader, go Listen, go subscribe.

There's some great episodes that I've listened to just in the last week.

Go check those out and follow Heather and all the places and cheer her on

wherever you can go, cheer her on.

I appreciate you listening in here.

We are episodes.

Until next time,