PJ Ellis (00:00)

So welcome to episode three. We're joined by the lovely Abbie Vlahakis CEO of Millennium Point. Good morning, Abbie. How are you?

Abigail Vlahakis (00:08)

Good morning.

I'm good, yes I'm good. I'm looking forward to a holiday soon.

PJ Ellis (00:12)

Good? ⁓

Andy's just come back from a holiday.

Andy (00:16)

Yeah, highly recommended, but I wish I was back on another one I have to say.

PJ Ellis (00:20)

I'm to get straight into something actually. Deputy Lieutenant, I saw the recent news. Congratulations. What's that all about, Abbie?

Abigail Vlahakis (00:23)

Yeah.

Yes, thank you.

So, yeah, it's a great honour actually and just in terms of what the lieutenancy is about, it's about representing the King So obviously the King can't be everywhere and he wants to be around to support lots of

great things that are happening in our region. So you have one Lord Lieutenant who's Derek, who's amazing.

but obviously he can't be everywhere because the West Midlands region is huge, so he has deputy lieutenants. I feel really honoured actually, to be able to see all the amazing things that happening in our region and the amazing people. So it's always good news stories, you know, from children to elderly and just being there to represent the King and to say thank you.

Andy (01:19)

Abigail Vlahakis (01:19)

That is essentially

what it is. yeah, no, it's an honour. Yeah.

Andy (01:25)

That's

really cool. How do you get nominated, I? Nominated.

Abigail Vlahakis (01:29)

Do you know, I didn't, I was so, when Derek asked to meet with me, I wasn't sure what that was about, to be honest, because I thought he was getting around, given that he was new in post to meet people. But actually I think what he involves is people are doing really great things for their community, then he wants...

to get those people involved in the lieutenancy to help support the work that's going on. And I think it's weird, isn't it? How your life takes different paths. You know, I was a tax advisor for 20 years and now I'm working in the charity sector, not for profit sector and supporting what I do through Millennium Point. And that...

leads to other things like what the deputy lieutenancy really and it wasn't a path that I thought I would take but actually it does make you realise when you meet people who maybe have awards or King's Awards or OBs and these people have been putting other people first really for a lot of what they're doing and they're getting awarded and I think that's a real

They deserve those awards. Not that I'm saying I deserve that, but I'm saying having been now in that private, the charity sector, it's opened up opportunities to do a lot more of that work. And I have to say, being in this sector where you are giving back is very addictive.

PJ Ellis (02:58)

I know it goes beyond that. I know the amount of other community initiatives that you've supported. So with that link, I suppose what might be helpful?

Just for me to be fair, because I've done so much work with the Millennium Point and I still don't know exactly what it does. You are CEO of the Millennium Point, tell our listeners exactly what that is because am I understanding this right? It's actually a charity, isn't it? I believe. Yeah.

Abigail Vlahakis (03:14)

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

And a lot of people really still don't understand Millennium Point. And I think it's because of how it began and it began as a regeneration project back in 2000. Well, I think the initial thoughts went back to 1996. think that was the start of it. And it was obviously a Millennium project along with the Dome The Eden Project, all of those to mark the Millennium.

It's easy to see it more of a bricks and mortar project to regenerate the east side of Birmingham. And it actually has done that. And it was the catalyst for everything that's there now. And it's fantastic. But actually Millennium Point as a building is owned by a charity, Millennium Point Trust. And the trust from inception was there to inspire education and knowledge in those future careers, technology.

And whilst 25 years ago STEM wasn't an acronym, it is the modern day term for what Millennium Point was established for at the outset. And it was about technological advances in education and careers. And so we use the profits we make from being a commercial landlord and an event space. So we have our trading activities in the building.

to fund our projects. So it's all about, you know, inspiring that next generation. And through, we do that through grants to schools, through scholarships to young people to go to university, through, you know, we're doing a lot of different projects at the moment, but also bringing young people into the building to bring to life those careers that are out there so they can actually see.

the opportunities and also doing lots for the community and also helping other charities where we can. Because I know for a lot of charities, especially when they want to put on events, the biggest barrier is venue hire. And so we've worked a lot with other charities in our city to help them put on some good.

events to raise money for their charities you know when you have the worst day ever you still get up and think got to keep going because other people are relying on us

PJ Ellis (05:44)

Anyone that's that knows somebody that should be celebrated or a community project that should be, you know, have a bit of light shone on them, to let them know about that sort of stuff?

Abigail Vlahakis (05:54)

Yeah, yeah, so there is something that happens every year, which is the King's Awards for voluntary service. And there's application forms and you can nominate people. And we I went to it last year for the first time and some it really goes down to grassroots people that are doing the most amazing things and changing their communities. And, you know, if there is anyone out there who wants to shine a light on someone.

who is doing that then they should really, so it's the King's Award for voluntary service. But you can get in touch with me if you need to.

Andy (06:28)

Quick question for me, Abbie, just a bit about your back story. So obviously you had a successful career with the likes of Grant Thornton, KPMG. Just talk a little bit about the work involved in the private sector and why the transition in career.

Abigail Vlahakis (06:43)

So if I go back to where I started, I'm actually not a native Brummie You probably can hear that but I've lived here longer than I've lived in Wales. So I'm originally from South Wales, grew up in the South Wales valleys during the miners strikes, which was an awful period for anyone who's ever lived in communities, mining communities. And

kind of saw education as right, I need to do really well at school. I need to keep pushing because I need to get out of the community because what happened was the community, the main source of income was removed and nothing was replaced. And

It was really interesting because I didn't know what careers were really out there. It's always the standard careers of accounting, law, medicine. And I wanted a career that I know was going to give me a stable progression, that you could see a path that been taken by everyone and you could see that you were going to. So I chose to go down the year finance route.

Andy (07:38)

Mm.

Abigail Vlahakis (07:55)

And I have to say, I met some great people during that period and had some really significant mentors that probably really impacted on me and probably have formed who I am today. who were... So I worked in the private client sector.

So I worked with lots of SMEs, owner managed businesses, people who had grown their businesses from scratch, from their garage or from their bedroom, and now were really successful.

But things started to change for me and I don't know whether, and I've done that for nearly 20 years, and I don't know whether it was my age. I don't know whether the industry changed, but I started to think.

Am I making a difference? I felt like I needed to make a difference and there was something missing. I felt like I was working with lots of, as you can imagine, wealthy people, wealthy clients who had worked hard for what they'd achieved. I was thinking, what am I doing? And then this opportunity came up.

at Millennium Point to move in as Finance Director, so it was a nice transition across. And when I arrived, it was just like, ⁓ my god, yes, this is what I've been looking for. do class myself as really lucky to have a job where I still have to be very commercial and financially driven.

The people who benefit at the end of it are the community. And that actually is something that I think I was searching for because I think I got burnt out in the private sector. And I just thought, what am I doing? You start to question why are you doing what you're doing? And then, so I feel very lucky really that that path came my way.

PJ Ellis (09:49)

And

how lucky are millennium point to have somebody like that, somebody who has that grounding in those big firms that has that ambition, that drive, but also now probably, and I don't mean to put words in your mouth, mate, but to want to play with that passion, You mentioned something there, Abbie about mentors and how they helped shape the Abbie that we see today.

Abigail Vlahakis (10:12)

Hmm.

PJ Ellis (10:12)

With your experience now with all the work that you do with STEM and you see these like young kids coming through the system. I hate that term young kids. My kids would kill me saying that, but I'm trying to be trendy, you know, I'm street. Do you think there's an opportunity there? Because I suppose some of these conversations are all about how do we help our kids better transition into the workplace? Is it a mentorship program? Is it as simple as that potentially?

Abigail Vlahakis (10:22)

Thank

PJ Ellis (10:38)

buddying up with the partners of the firms that you join.

Abigail Vlahakis (10:42)

I think that it's interesting, I've been looking at this, I've actually been doing quite a bit of research into this very topic actually because

I hear a lot in the role that I do that young people aren't work ready. And I'm like, what does that mean? What does that mean? And I've been looking, looking into that in some detail. And actually, if you go through history, that has been said by every generation before us. Every generation says that.

Andy (11:01)

Yeah.

Abigail Vlahakis (11:19)

and you're going to call me a geek now, but even a Roman philosopher called Seneca said the youth are slothful and don't have the same skills as their ancestors and what he was referring to there was that the youth were more, for him, were more into literature and reading and drama and theatre rather than

building up to fight. And he was saying it was going to be the end of whatever. So we've been saying it for generations. you know, if you look at, if you look at what history's also told us is that in downturns it's the youth that bring us through.

So after the Great Depression, it was Walt Disney and Hewlett and Packard. They were young people. They kind of brought industry through. And after World War II, was the, you know, rebuilding Britain. And I think the youth get a bit of a hard time with that. And

I think that there's a real obligation, I think, on employers to be those mentors to young people. there's a confidence gap here where employers see,

the lack of experiences and lack of ability and the youth see barriers, they see this workforce, they can't see clear career paths, so they don't know what they're doing. But actually, our youth are digitally minded, they might think in different ways, but they're very creative. We just need to believe in them. And I think, back to your point about mentoring.

I lacked an awful lot of confidence in my early days of my career. And there was one person that, was a partner at Grant Thornton, who really believed in me and his belief in me really allowed me to flourish and gain confidence in myself. And then the skills came through. But initially, was I shy? Did I ask questions? No, I probably didn't.

you know, all of the things that employers, think, are expecting from young people today.

They're there. But actually what we need to be doing is not looking at how I was 25 years ago. I should be looking at, right, what do we need as a business going forward? We need creative skills. We need people who are digitally able and these children, they do it as part of their life. So I think.

It's mentoring absolutely, I think, work experience, I think, greater connections between employers and schools and belief. We need to instil belief in these young people because honestly, and I see it through the work that we do, when you give someone opportunity, they will flourish. One thing I have learned is that you can't fix everyone and you can't fix everyone.

But you can, if you give someone opportunity and that there is a problem there is access to opportunity. If you give people opportunity and if the right that we have a massive skills gap, particularly in STEM and we have unemployment in this region of 14%, youth unemployment. Did you know? Youth unemployment in Birmingham is 14%, which is

PJ Ellis (14:46)

Yeah.

Abigail Vlahakis (14:49)

and the national average is seven, then we should be doing something.

Andy (14:55)

love that rallying cry for the youngies and, you know, come on, that's what we're all about. That's why we set this up in particular because of that. Seneca is one of the great stoic philosophers and if he was saying it, then kind of holds true, doesn't it? So there's a couple of things popped into my head as you were talking there, Abbie, and it's fab.

Abigail Vlahakis (15:00)

Yes.

Andy (15:13)

Because quite often we talk about mentoring as, you know, there's the expectation that it's the old, these experienced ones look after the younger ones or the new starters. Well, there's fairly recent development in that around reverse mentoring. And I think reverse mentoring has become increasingly relevant in the world we are today, as you've articulated. So that's, you know, that's where the...

The older, more senior partners and managers get mentored by younger, more diverse groups within the company. So, you know, I not very good with technology would go to someone who's coming through the ranks or just started, who's good with technology, very digitally enabled, understands what younger generations want. So that can improve both my performance and my outlook. So I think with this mentoring is a really important opportunity. I think it's not really universally understood. That's a fantastic way maybe of getting

the more younger, more diverse populations involved in the business world as well. And you mentioned a great word there, opportunity, which is lacking. And we touched on that with Tom on a recent podcast, who's the CEO at Sport for Life. And there's a little equation, we'll see if this chimes true with you as well, which is something we talk about here, which is motivation multiplied by ability, but multiplied by opportunity equals performance.

And the most important determinant of performance for me is around opportunity creation, because that plays with all the other relievers as well. So, you know, just be interested in how, I agree with everything you've said. So how can we start to, or where do you see the building blocks, or where do you see the good work that's being done today, that's starting to create those opportunities for youngsters or unemployed or those kind of segments of the population who need that kind of boost?

Abigail Vlahakis (16:59)

Yeah, I think.

There's several ways. if, I think there is real merit in every business carrying out a program where they reach out to young people, bring them in. So this could be people, young people who still in schools. So this is not at the point they're being employed

and say, these are real life problems that we are facing in our business. How could you fix that? what would you do? And I've seen this work really effectively and I've seen it's where businesses have gone, actually it's taken us X number of years to deal with this and you've fixed it.

PJ Ellis (17:29)

Thank

Abigail Vlahakis (17:41)

for them to think they've made a difference, that is so, that's a boost.

I think businesses also need to look at their, what they really want when they're recruiting. Because you constantly get this, well, I can't find an engineer or I can't, how can you not find an engineer? You know, just by example, Aston is, Aston is delivering graduates. How can you not? What are your expectations? And I think that, and I don't want to be bashing employers because there's employers that do amazing things.

PJ Ellis (17:50)

you

Thank

Thank

Abigail Vlahakis (18:14)

but do we make it that we bring people in and actually help build those foundations and bring them through? I think it's back to the old YTS schemes and those as well, you know, but I do think that there's this...

PJ Ellis (18:24)

You're

Abigail Vlahakis (18:27)

There's a problem somewhere. There's a disconnect where we've got employers crying out for people and yet we've got young people who just can't even get interviews. What is going on then?

Andy (18:40)

Yeah,

PJ Ellis (18:40)

No

Andy (18:42)

yeah. PJ, apologies, can I have little rant? First rant on the series.

PJ Ellis (18:45)

Mate, I know exactly

what you're going to rant about as well, mate, so the floor is yours.

Andy (18:51)

Okay, you touched on a really good point there about the responsibility of employers because my son recently applied for a job, a casual weekend job, which has hundreds of applications now.

I think they use platforms like Indeed, which are probably AI propelled. It certainly wasn't the case back in my day when I was trimming lettuce and picking strawberries. But we applied, put a lot of effort into it and overnight got a response which was, can't give any feedback due to the high volume. You didn't match what we're after. And a thank you from so and so company. Now I know the company, there's no way they were working overnight.

all my son is after is a bit of feedback of how he can tweak and improve. And he's definitely not in isolation. That's happening all the time. And even worse, kids get interviewed and no feedback. So the moral responsibility when someone takes the time and effort to be courteous and just help nudge them along.

sits with employers but we've efficiency and effectiveness has got away with that I'm afraid and it's a real problem and it's wrong. ⁓

Abigail Vlahakis (20:03)

And it's creating

a barrier that is another barrier. And every time you get to rejection, it knocks you that little bit more. I was speaking to someone who had applied for something like 60 jobs and hadn't had one response. we need to be

creating opportunities, And actually, if we're going to grow the West Midlands, it has to be inclusive growth for everyone.

everyone should get employment.

PJ Ellis (20:37)

massive. I can't believe that stat 14 % in youth employment and the national average was what, Abbie? 7%, did you say? Wow. mean, there's another mathematical equation there somewhere around, we're saying that we need to create more opportunities and we do, but then the opportunities that are available are being somewhat hamstrung or

Abigail Vlahakis (20:43)

That's fun. Yeah.

PJ Ellis (21:02)

they're applying some sort of limitations around giving those kids the opportunity because AI is assessing your son's capabilities. What are they looking at? Are they understanding the real person, their ambitions? We talked on one of the podcasts about the importance of those initial conversations with the new recruits into the business. What do you do on the side? What's your ambition? What's your real purpose in life? Because you might hire them as a lawyer, but actually they might be the best community manager or something. don't know.

So it all weaves its way into that. And then at the end of that, we still need to get better at making those opportunities accessible, not only making them, but then making accessible to the people that would be brilliant in those opportunities. Difficult question, Abbie. But what do you think Birmingham and the wider region, of course, you are DL for the West Midlands after all, what do think we should be doing as a region to, I suppose, better open our doors to these young people?

We talk about mentorship, we talk about those platforms, the programs, but how do we do it? Is it a collective? Do we need to come together to do it? Do businesses need to go back to the old school where they literally naturally sift through applications and make sure we meet people? I don't think we've got a definitive answer, but any ideas? What are you seeing within the businesses that you support that are creating these opportunities? The non-traditional pathways into STEM and tech.

You must be seeing something there that's working.

Abigail Vlahakis (22:29)

think back to my first point, actually I think it has to be a collective. It has to be a concerted effort and it has to be a complete change of thinking. And I think it has to be business, local authority and education all coming together to almost create a clear...

career education pathway and I think employers need to be involved. At the end of the day, we're creating young people for employers to build businesses, to grow the economy. It has to be a concerted effort to do this because we're losing too many young people along the way. there's another point there actually.

about young people who learn differently. Our system does not benefit them at all and

Andy (23:23)

Yeah.

Abigail Vlahakis (23:25)

but they get left behind and that upsets me. That really upsets me because these young people could have the most and do have the most creative minds. And actually when you put them, give them the opportunity, they will flourish. But the system, which unfortunately is the system and we can't change that especially in

secondary school of learning to pass an exam does not suit everyone at all. And there are young people in our system who might be suffering from dyslexia or various things who don't even know that and they're being left behind and that creates anxiety, it creates all of these problems. And so I think there's also something to be said about young people who

who are being labelled too soon as well that they're not good enough. They are and I'd like to see something where we can start to champion those young people and identify them and I have heard that there's some employers now who are potentially not even looking at the CVs.

They just want to see that young person or a person, doesn't have to be a young person, and just getting to know them in the interview. And I think this is where I'm really encouraged by STEM careers is that the way in which the world is going in terms of AI,

those human skills are going to be incredibly important for young people. So, you know, the ability to be resilient, creative thinking, design thinking, critical thinking, problem solving, have that in abundance. If you go into a primary school, you see all of those skills happening.

every minute of the day when you watch them play, when you watch them and primary schools are brilliant actually at encouraging all of that. Especially in what I see in the STEM, there's some amazing opportunities and projects going on and then we get to the secondary school and then it's removed from you when you're there to pass an exam. There are employers out there now who are saying actually human skills, AI can't replace those human skills.

And I think that there's something that as with my Millennium Point hat on is something that I really want to concentrate on as well as a project. And I'm working with a project at the moment about pulling out those human skills in young people. They've got them, but it's shining a light on them so that they can demonstrate that. yeah, some organisations are going down that route.

PJ Ellis (26:16)

yeah, I mean I love that.

Andy (26:17)

Now, I saw a couple of things on that. Firstly, I was watching the BBC yesterday and there was a feature about all six-year-old kids in China, I think it was, they're being taught AI. I don't know if it's in a certain region or China generally. And I also saw Stephen Bartlett.

posted something, And he posted exactly what you've just said. He said, I'm not interested in CV. I'm not interested in your qualifications. I'm not interested in your experiences today. I'm interested in how you show up. Yeah. What you can do, behaviours, how you can adapt. So I think that's a really encouraging sign. I love that idea of let's just meet, meet the person because the world has changed. I, am optimistic that AI, yes, it'll change a lot of stuff, but I think it will start to change the system.

the reasons you've really well articulated around what skills we're going to need, what new jobs, know, how can an old fart like me understand what prompt engineer is, whereas my kids can understand what a prompt engineer would be because they're using it all the time. And I saw our Mayor Richard Parker this week released his West Midlands Growth Plan and part of that certainly had a feature around unemployment and skills and I don't know if you're involved in any other consultations around that.

I just wonder what's our message for the Mayor then? How can he help us? What should he be doing to really accelerate support in our young people?

Abigail Vlahakis (27:41)

I think, well, if you look at the growth areas that they're concentrating on for the West Midlands, know, it's advanced engineering, clean tech, digital and creative industries. They are all STEM.

You know, skilled opportunities. Yes. In those, in those organizations, you'll have other opportunities, other roles, which is great. But we really need to be focusing. I can see, you know, you want to work with the people who will be, who are in the work force at the moment and you need to skill them. And we do have a problem with 16 to 25, but we also need. ⁓

to be focusing on our pipeline. Well, we can make that change now so that when they're, you know, it's not even that long, in 10 years time, they're going to be coming out into the workforce, some of the, we want to be concentrating and really concentrating on working in our schools and getting employers to work in our schools. And there being that rallying cry of, yes, we have to fix the young people we have now.

PJ Ellis (28:41)

Thanks.

Abigail Vlahakis (28:48)

who are trying to get into jobs, but we can't ignore what's coming behind. You know, what's happening up here is a fix job. This could be, if we're really, really focusing on these four or five industries, our education system needs to reflect that. And we need to invest in the schools. The curriculum is the curriculum and we can't change that.

because that's government. was something when I first started in this role, I like, I want to change the, how do we change the curriculum? Yeah, that ain't gonna happen. But actually what I've realised is that's there and we have to accept that. That is something we cannot influence. What we can influence is everything that's around it. So what we do through Millennium Point, for example, is with the grants that we give, we invest in

equipment. we've got schools now who have 3D printers, laser cutters, everything that they need, software, CAM CAD. There was one example where we had a school who was trying to teach engineering through a textbook, GCSE engineering. And the teacher was like, this is just impossible. And he was a great teacher because he could see

He could see these are the jobs, these are my young people, I'm going to get them ready. So he contacted us, we kitted out the whole STEM script for him. And the GCSE engineering class in one year went from 20 to 65. So I know it will make a difference. So we fit the schools, we make STEM engaging. So what we do is say, this is the curriculum, can be very dry.

Andy (30:21)

Wow.

Abigail Vlahakis (30:33)

How do we bring to life? So we've got another school that's building a light aircraft that will be flown at the Farnham Air Show once their GCSEs are over, because they're going to do it over three years. We've got Formula One in schools, we support those. We've done so many different things that once you put all of that in, we work with a SEND

school and put in digital and iPads and everything that they needed

Do you know what? you speak, some people say to me, but Abbie, employers, they want, they're just interested in the stuff they're going to get in the next.

five years they're not interested in your three-year-old or your five-year-old who's going to be why not

PJ Ellis (31:21)

That's a great shout.

Abigail Vlahakis (31:22)

Because Cadbury

was the most amazing entrepreneur, I think. What he done by building that whole community, he was securing his workforce for generations. You know, let's let's get real.

PJ Ellis (31:27)

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, that is bang on. Like thinking, I mean, yeah, my sister's a primary school teacher. Mom was around primary school education most of her life. And the power, yeah, I mean, you said something earlier about how that sort of creativity and encouragement, empowerment happens in primary school. And then that whole sort of feel changes, doesn't it? When it goes into secondary school, you are literally dictated.

Abigail Vlahakis (31:58)

And that's not saying

that our secondary school teachers aren't great because they are great. But if you say to someone, I am going to assess you on these grades, that's what you're going to do, aren't you? You might think for this child, actually, the best thing is to give them all of this creativity because they're going to discover the next iPhone.

PJ Ellis (32:05)

Oh, you might. Yeah.

Abigail Vlahakis (32:24)

You can't do that because actually no, I'm assessed on whether you get through your maths and English. ⁓

PJ Ellis (32:28)

Well, yeah, you basically

dictated to on your level of recall in relation to information. I mean, I fell into that trap. I thought that was it. I had to have the strongest CV to go and do all the things that I wanted to do. And actually, if I'm still to be dictated to or defined by my CV, I would never have been able to do all the brilliant things that I'm... I mean, we're talking about schools creating light aircrafts. All I did was...

Abigail Vlahakis (32:37)

Yeah.

Yeah.

PJ Ellis (32:57)

I used to create artwork out of dried leaves. That's all I I'm so encouraged to hear that that's the sort of projects you guys are creating, but maybe that's what it is. Employers now need to look at Cadbury and start creating their own future of the workforce. They need to get into these primary schools, don't they?

Andy (33:13)

Just a bit.

Abigail Vlahakis (33:13)

Because they are your future business models, aren't they?

PJ Ellis (33:15)

Yeah,

100%.

Andy (33:17)

A couple of points for me, it's great stuff. think those stories are ace and the more we can get those kind of stories, and I'm sure you're trying, you do, Abbie, but the more they can get kind of force amplified to understand what's possible and what gets done, I'm sure the more that will attract attention because they're fantastic. And I did notice that Saqib Bhatti a local MP, has just been appointed deputy.

Minister for Education. So, Saqib we'll tag you in the post. We'd like to get you on here and let's talk about education from your perspective. And I was also really privileged at Millennium Point.

hear Peter Kyle speak at the Birmingham Tech Week last year. I think you might have been on the panel there, Abbie as well. And he's the Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology. And if there's a person who really needs to be engaged in this sort of debate about the future, and he was really impressive, I thought, then we need to get, you know, we need to get those sorts of people on board, on the pod, talking about how we secure

Abigail Vlahakis (33:55)

Yes.

Yeah.

I thought he was too, yeah.

Andy (34:19)

STEM skills and everything else in the next 10, 15 years. Let's not be so short term about three to flipping five, just because that coheres with a business plan of three to five years that business is right.

PJ Ellis (34:31)

100%.

Abigail Vlahakis (34:31)

Yeah, no,

absolutely. And history, you know, there's plenty of evidence to show where people like Cadbury who's done that, secured their workforce. I learned something actually last week from the Bournville Trust that as well as creating the homes and all of the other great facilities there, Cadbury also made sure that there were three fruit trees in every garden of every house.

so that they had access to fruit for health.

Andy (34:59)

Wow, nice.

PJ Ellis (35:00)

I mean, he was ring-fencing those people, wasn't he? Let's be honest. I mean, he was a clever guy. And talking of clever, or dare we say we challenge the intelligence of this gentleman that started this conversation, Seneca, do we all now agree that the youth aren't slothful, that they do possess the skills of their ancestors, it's just now on us to provide them with the better opportunities and pathways? Would we all agree with that?

Abigail Vlahakis (35:04)

It was, yeah.

Yes, I agree with that. I don't know, Andy, what do you think?

PJ Ellis (35:29)

Yes. Andy?

Andy (35:33)

I would say I've seen evidence at 11 o'clock on a Saturday morning in my house of very sloth-like behaviour, even at lunch time. But generally speaking, I totally agree.

PJ Ellis (35:39)

Right.

Right. One second. Blakey, get out of bed. He's still in bed, my boy. Abbie it's been an absolute, it's been a delight talking to you, mate. Honestly, some of those stories that you tell, I mean, you can't tell because I've got a jacket on, but literally making me cold. You know, I think you're doing brilliant work. We're proud of you, both you and the organization that you run.

Abigail Vlahakis (35:47)

Thank you.

Thank you.

PJ Ellis (36:04)

Lovely people doing brilliant things and long may that continue. Thank you, Abbie. Have a lovely day,

Abigail Vlahakis (36:10)

Thank

very much. Thank you. Thank you.

Andy (36:12)

Abbie Thank you. Cheers mate.

PJ Ellis (36:14)

Brilliant.